Daenerys, Aragorn, Slavers, and Orcs | ASOIAF Theory

What does a good monarch do with objectively bad enemies? George RR Martin has a lot of questions about the reign of King Aragorn of Gondor. In addition to his tax policy, Martin wonders if the King perhaps committed genocide. There were a lot of Orcs left over after Sauron fell. What did Aragorn do with them? Slaughter, reform, integration? This reminded me of Daenerys and her problem with the slavers. Once she smashes the slave trade, what does she do with the former masters? Are her only options mercy or murder? A Song of Ice and Fire, Game of Thrones, and Lord of the Rings clash in this video where I'm probably going to be called pro slavery or something so whatever lol. Let's discuss
Daenerys, Aragorn, Slavers, and Orcs | ASOIAF Theory
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[@kimauthor]

At least Tolkien finished his books....

[@anaisabel713]

This is what always kills the debate 😅

[@KevinPendragon]

Right? He's complaining about the unrealistic ending of a series when he can't even end his own series in a realistic amount of time lol. The nerve, the gall, the audacity...

[@missanthropy6174]

@@anaisabel713no, it doesn’t. The vast majority of authors have to stick to strict schedules and often have to surrender some creative liberties in order to get any work published. If virtually any other author behaved with even a fraction of his audacity, they would never have a single word be published again. But he’s protected by his success. So he can publish fire and blood, work on HoTD, and other authors works, literally anything but finishing the series that is responsible for his meteoric success, and get away with it. It’s disrespectful and unprofessional.

[@anaisabel713]

@@missanthropy6174 I am not disagreeing lol. So unsure why you sent me this message. I meant there is no debate. He can't complain in unfinished books lol.I agree with Kevin. THE AUDACITY.

[@missanthropy6174]

@@anaisabel713 ok, i misunderstood the intent of your original comment. As someone currently putting up with the exploitative nature of publishing, authors like GRRM that get away with shit that would get the rest of us blacklisted really make me angry and sometimes I’m a little over sensitive. My bad.

[@mistermaestersirthomas9164]

Thoughts needed to be added to continue this: 1. Ned tried to treat the baddies right and with justice; he died for it. 2. Ned takes direct control of dealing justice and beheads a guy who probably didn’t deserve it. 3. The Faceless “Men” take lots of time observing people and determining the possible effect of their life and the possible effect of their death. Literally walking in a “man’s shoes”. They still cause unpredictable consequences. 4. “Those in power”… the king bends to the collective lords will. The lords bend to the king will. Small folk bend to all, even when the royals die they just prop them up on a horse and armor and follow their lead. So who is at fault? Who is in power? 5. Servants vs. slaves… the difference. Freedom to leave when… to where?… leave their homes for the new conquering monarch? For where… the red wastes? Anyway, GRRM is asking a very complicated question. Are people like Tywin and Randyl Tarly really bad, or has history taught them the Walder boys game?

[@RealLifeIronMan]

The world is not a fair place. And oft the "honorable path" may be the most bloody. Aragon showing mercy to "orcs" may get many innocent women and children brutalized. Ned showing Circe a kindness by warning her got himself and King Robert killed. Often it is unwise to show enemies mercy but not always. It requires astute judgement to determine which is better. Moral absolutes fail to have satisfying answers in real world conflicts. What is certain is in every war through out history both sides blindly kill innocent lives.

[@andydavies5879]

House words are ‘grin and bear it’ haha love it

[@Ciccigreen]

This is one of your best works! Very interesting and thought provoking.

[@ButtersCCookie]

Beautiful narration. Interesting and intelligent topic.

[@kimberlywebster6057]

2:46 “Do you think the average storm trooper knows how to install a toilet main?”

[@KevinPendragon]

All those innocent contractors... 😔

[@ganykaliya7811]

Martin complins about Aragorn's tax policy but doesn't explain how tax policies are enforced. In fact there's no explanation for how beaurcracy works in his world at. Also, the whole running a kingdom with just one castle really shatters suspension of disbelief for me. Doesn't help that I have a degree in history.

[@KevinPendragon]

I think when Martin questions Aragorn's tax policy, he's basically saying, "How did Aragorn deal with the economy? I want scenes of him talking about budgets and counting coppers. Where's all that?!" I don't think he wants to read about an actual tax policy. He just wants scenes of Aragorn talking about money and how it effects his rule. Martin is very much interested in what amounts to minutia. It's interesting when we hear about Robert bankrupting the realm but it's boring when we have to hear about Jon counting food stores at the Wall. Because when it comes to money, Martin's currency system is all out of whack.

[@alexor081]

Yeah, the only thing I could gather is this sort of medieval western feudal society where the six "Kingdoms" leaders proclaim fielty to the King but their people "they owed fealty to the Earl rather than the King". Just like Daenerys asking Jon to bend the knee to her (similar to the Western medieval tradition of mixing hands with the ruler etc.)

[@crusader2112]

On Aragon and the Orcs: I believe many orcs were left lost without Sauron due to them being under the influence of Sauron. There were a orc strongholds left that Aragon went to war with, but I wouldn’t call it g*nocide. They were military actions.

[@ZorcTheDarkOnex]

The one ring would have corrupted The Jonster wnd Dany after the first season. It would exploit Jon's loss of Ned Stark, and Dany's loss of her unborn child and Drogo.

[@kitkat6959]

My problem with "whats his tax policy" is that its something nobody cares about and has nothing to do with the narrative lol The Orc question is interesting but also has nothing to do woth the plot. Their lore and potential future is more of a Silmarillion question. With no Morgoth or Sauron to lead them they probably just stayed as mountain bandits or goblin kingdoms like in The Hobbit. Not worth Aragorns time.

[@MadIvano]

The whole point that GRRM (and Frank Herbert) is making is that narratives are lies. The point is narratives are bullshit stories created or twisted into inspiring unquestioning loyalty.

[@jlworrad]

A quick paragraph about it in one of LOTR’s appendices wouldn’t have harmed though.

[@sebastianmunozochoa1485]

​@@MadIvanothe thing is that creators have different goals, Tolkien wanted to create a myth while Herbert and Martin aim to be realistic. I mean, Tolkien disliked Dune because in his own words the characters act like Saruman and Sauron.

[@KevinPendragon]

The king's tax policy is just minutia, and Martin loves minutia. It's why we get huge paragraphs of Jon counting barrels of food in ADWD at the Wall. Gotta cover all the tiny details in depth when a single sentence would suffice. I think this is another reason why Winds and Dream are so late. Martin wrote the first books to address all these problems with Papa Tolkien and other fantasy stories but now he's run out of gripes to address. Just a theory though (A GAME OF THRONES THEORY)

[@jlworrad]

@@sebastianmunozochoa1485 Did he say that? I was under the impression he turned down giving a blurb for Dune but only said he ‘actively disliked it’ and didn’t want to say anymore. It’s been an intriguing question as to why he disliked it, though of course we can make some pretty likely guesses why.

[@nicknaylor9895]

There’s a brief statement in LOTR about the fate of the orcs: after Sauron’s power is broken and he can’t use his will to dominate the orcs, they literally revert to their natural beast-like state where they start killing each other and themselves, and the few survivors find dark holes to climb down into never to be found again. Aragorn doesn’t do a big orcocaust. George is being disingenuous when he suggests Aragorn might have systematically killed all the orcs. For one, it’s not something that the paragon of human virtue would do in Tolkien’s world, and two the orcs themselves solve the orc problem all by themselves. As far as tax policy goes, I think he’s also being disingenuous: it’s medieval high fantasy, why wouldn’t taxes work the same or similarly to common tax policies in the medieval period?

[@LPVince94]

Well isn't that convenient. The difficult moral question took care of itself so the hero can remain untarnished. It has been a long time since I last read TLOTR but this feels more like fanfic than Tolkien. Was this realy in the books?

[@KevinPendragon]

Ha. That's exactly what I thought. How convenient they just so happen to kill each other and themselves and the rest crawl into holes

[@nicknaylor9895]

@@LPVince94 If you're gonna sneer at the idea of the orcs being a self-solving problem, you missed the point of LOTR: evil always brings its own ruin upon itself. Sauron is blinded by hubris and doesn't think anyone would try to destroy the ring. The ring capriciously holds Gollum to his oath to protect Frodo and causes him to slip and fall into the fire, destroying itself. Saruman is killed by Grima, a man he treats like a dog and beneath contempt or caution. The heroes all do as much as they can but in the end, the seeds of the downfall of evil is always sown by evil itself. The orcs are creatures of evil created by the original bad guy who is responsible for introducing evil into the world. Yeah, super convenient when they start doing violent bad guy stuff like killing each other. What a shocking development. Such lame writing. What a dumb thing for Tolkien to do, having such a philosophy be an integral part of his worldview and subsequent writing. Christ. Aragorn also isn't the hero. He's a hero, he's a Christ as King trope, but he's not the proper hero nor even the protagonist. But go off my guy, let's hear some more of your opinions.

[@user-im4co1jr3l]

@@nicknaylor9895I mean, believing evil will just sort itself out *is* a convenient philosophy. I understand how it fits with Tolkien’s religion and worldview, but it doesn’t fit with mine. IRL evil is way better at building stable power, and it exists in the hearts of heroes, and there are no good kings. But all that aside, if your answer to Aragorn’s tax policy is just “medieval”, then you’re missing the point. Leadership involves making difficult decisions where not everyone under your leadership is going to be happy with you, where there isn’t necessarily a “good” or “wise” course of action. GRRM understood that the politics and particulars of the post war period wasn’t the point of LOTR. I think his point was that the real world is messier than Good vs Evil, so he wanted his stories to be messy

[@mohirender]

How convenient for Aragorn he didn't have to kill all the orcs since you know they did it themselves lol

[@d_ruggs]

Its been almost as long since last book as it was for the first 5 books to release. Im choosing to believe he is working on 6&7 together lol.

[@joshuavincent3515]

Happy new years glad to see you. Love the video and your sounding good. Although I've always thought you sounded good when you made your videos.

[@KevinPendragon]

Thank you. This new set up is much better. The previous one was too sensitive and made it very difficult to clean up audio for publishing

[@sagittariusa7662]

They wouldn't last for seconds against actual Orcs. Northmen: "What the fuck are those things?" Orcs: "WAARG!" Wildlings: "We'll take our chances with the white walker, thank you very much." *Stay beyond the Wall.*

[@Rengokuo4o6]

Really Good video mate. This is off topic but I feel like you made the perfect argument for why Batman shouldn't kill villians but hand them over to the authorities. Not that DC ever gets this deep or realistic to the level of ASOIAF.

[@tianna654]

I'm just glad we got another upload🙌🏿 I hope the new equipment will allow you to post more frequently. We be waiting patiently for these videos😂😂😂 You know GOT fans are nothing if not patient 😭😭😭😭😭😭😭

[@KevinPendragon]

Your comment on that community post inspired me to make this video. I was like... someone wants content, I got a good idea to work with and I got the new equipment so let's get back to work before I lose a sub lol 😭. New videos are def coming. Can't say what just yet but whewwww... some page counts are longer than the Life and Lies of Lord Varys complete theory lmao. Thanks for being patient and sticking with the channel

[@tianna654]

@@KevinPendragon Awww that just made my day. Yes, its a lot of us that wait on your videos but we're not going anywhere. Your videos are always very well thought out so we know it takes time. I just hope your channel continues to grow❤️

[@milesmartens9635]

what would goblin slayer would say about goblin.

[@geoninja3631]

🖤❤

[@joshuavincent3515]

It isn't good or bad but it is necessary. For example lets look at the forgotten realms. Goblins, gnolls, orcs, and drow are known as the evil races. But when you read the books although term evil races is used by closed off characters. But when you take a character like Drizzt one of the good drow. This should teach anyone who has read those books that making a generalization is an excuse not to thinking at all. It's easier to have someone do your think then to do it yourself.

[@Chickawah]

Love the quote at the end pulled directly from Gandalf about how we shouldn’t be hasty to play judge, jury, and executioner. So many in this community, particularly Dany stans, like to act like Dany going all fire and blood and burning every last slaver is the correct course of action. That since because Dany already tried ruling fairly in Mereen but had all her diplomacy and compromises fail, the only supposed solution is now to burn every single master. This is such a childish reaction and a total knee jerk response lacking any real deep thought. Dany’s attempts at diplomacy have only been going on for like a year at most based on our best estimates of the timeline. Of course she hasn’t upended the culture of Mereen. These types of changes don’t happen overnight. It’s a long and hard process with many road bumps along the way. While force is necessary as well, not to the degree of literal genocide. As with most things in life, the correct answer isn’t black or white, but rather some shade of gray in the middle. Rulership is hard and has no simple fix solutions. While Dany does needs to assert her authority over Mereen with displays of strength and power. She also needs to combine that with long term reforms and tedious political monitoring to ensure they remain in place. Going all fire and blood is just short term satisfaction that doesn’t address the systemic issues at heart. It’s the difference between being child lashing out at an unfair world akin to a temper tantrum, and being a mature adult who recognizes the logistical difficulties that come with changing societies for the better.

[@KevinPendragon]

Thank you for the comment and thank you for mentioning systemic issues. Ending slavery and reforming the region would take more than one lifetime due to various systemic issues. Even if Dany killed every single last slaver, there would still be a host of systemic issues to deal with. I wish I included the scene from the show where Dany burns a few ships, some masters get killed, and then she sets sail for Westeros as if it would be that easy to turn Slaver's Bay into the Bay of Dragons.

[@FurryYoLoL]

Really hard and stuff hahaha took me out😆

[@KevinPendragon]

Ruling is super hero, you guys. I'm serial 😔

[@marcostargaryen4181]

The thing is , unlike aragorn , daenerys tried to do peaceful negotionations with the slavers and at the end they still decided to betray the deal and wage war against her.

[@augustusasper97]

Antiintellectual seems to me your shallow approach to complex ideas and situations. For example good ruler decisions are not always about who deserves to die but what is better for the people / realm / the world. In situation where there are horrible slavers who just do not want to stop being such despicable tyrants because it is their very culture, tradition and identity, the only way to prevent any more enslaving is simply destroy this very culture, tradition and identity. And only way you can achieve this is kill at least most of the masters, so their culture will die out and the rest of them will be deterred. Even Tolkien was not sure if orcs are inherently evil. And Gandalf clearly said that is not up to us to decide who shall die a who shall live, still he never hesitated in the fight to kill orcs, trolls etc. Why? Becase they were threat, they were doing evil and needed to be stopped. And again you from your absurd moral high horse are judging Dany (about 14 years girl) for not having completed and mature opinion on slavery before she discovered how terrible it really is. But it is absolutely natural for people creating strong opinions based on personal experiences and not having prepared deeply thought opinion to everything beforehand. Same you consider what she did in Astapor as bad thing or mistake. But was it really? Situation in Astapor deteriorated after she left because its people were not capable of ruling themselves. But it is Danys fault or theirs? Or shared? She probably should create some goverment structure before leaving but we cannot be sure if it would change the outcome. And what options Dany had? 1. Do nothing and let objectively horrible status quo continue (morally wrong for sure) 2. or try to change it. Morally wrong according to you, because it cost lives and her solution was not perfect? Well, every change has its price (bigger change means bigger price) and there are no perfect solutions in imperfect world. So mostly we choose between two evils desperately trying to find which one is lesser. Dany chose and despite of her solution was very costly in short term (have you any better?) in long term it could be still (kind of) good one. Because every major change brings some turmoil, but if from initial chaos in Astapor (and Slavers Bay) comes later some better society creating much better life for many generations...was it really that bad? Worse than continuation of absolutely terrible slavers regime with all its atrocities? Brutalizing enemy used to often had deterrence effect. One of the advantages of deterrence is you can avoid the whole conflict, killing and all horrors of war. Is it really that bad after all? And remember we are not talking about some commoners but in case of slave masters people in charge of one of the worst tyrannical regime imaginable. You mentioned Geneva convention and our todays standards. According to this is even participating on such despicable regime serious crime...so?