Daggerheart's Biggest Problem Isn't Its Design

Daggerheart released into open beta March 12 as a bold, beautiful, masterfully crafted game... that may not work for your table. You'll find the beta here: www.daggerheart.com
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[@zenith110]

Speaking from a D&D-centric point of view... For people who were introduced into 5e as their first TTRPG, I've noticed a lot of resistance to content for the game *not designed by the DM* , also known as "player driven content". This isn't about the player's backstory, this is about players making the story as part of the 'authorial' hand in the narrative. Sometimes, this refers to players having and using agency to steer the game in a direction. Specifically, there are many preconceptions that might have been altered if those 5e only players had also experimented with other older editions, but also other systems entirely. I started with 2e D&D, but I've also played Call of Cthulhu, Star Wars Edge of the Empire, and Through the Breach. There's a lot to be gained when all the characters can muster a contribution to the game. But even in my own recent experience as a player, I sometimes feel like a passenger in the narrative for contemporary 5e-only DMs. If this is what might be expected from Daggerheart, it could mean a bit of a learning curve for the 5e only crowd coming over to the Critical Role product.

[@Hamstertron]

Indeed if people need rigid rules to make them play nice, take turns and not talk over each other then does that say more about the system or the people?

[@Slanderbot]

It reflects the state of society. These are the realities we have to deal with if we want to engage in play regularly. In nearly 30 years of playing tabletop games, I can think of maybe a dozen people who truly have the qualities wrel touched on in the video. It is a rarity indeed.

[@Excalibaard]

​​@@Slanderbot It might also be the rules system that encourages people to act this way. If you really have so many people that inherently lack the social qualities you're looking for, maybe a system with more like-minded individuals would be preferred. It seems very disappointing that you'd have to force yourself to play with people you dislike to enjoy a hobby. May not have a choice at your job, but should be possible for something you choose to do.

[@shrubninja6444]

I don't think so. It's not as simple as somebody "not playing nice" or "speaking over others". An extroverted player doesn't need to be actively rude to an introverted player for the introvert to shy away from doing stuff. I know several players who would just never do anything if they weren't prompted by a turn order or by someone addressing them specifically. I definitely don't think the solution should be "only play with like-minded people". A system that gently enforces some order to the chaos like initiative does is perfectly fine. I've seen freeform systems with no initiative work, but that definitely requires a lot of coordination between players and dm to make it work.

[@EternalQuake]

I feel this system actually let's your table show their true colors, being able to see how people cooperate with on another. That being said you can cap Hope and Fear, so hoarding doesn't happen. And maybe thay everytime you long rest it resets the amount Hope for the day. That seems like a good way to avoid hoarding and incentivices the use of it before a long rest.

[@WarpathWrel]

That's a good way to look at it. I'm definitely interested in seeing what tweaks they make between now and launch to smooth over the potential rough edges.

[@shootfromtheright2712]

Hope is capped I believe. There is a limited amount of spots of the character sheet

[@EternalQuake]

@shootfromtheright2712 correct, 5 per player. I thought you could have more but I have read a bit more carefully and true true.

[@monkeymule1286]

With most games it's fairly clear what you are agreeing to when you join. Soccer has a form, chess has a form, there is variation with in, styles and schools of play but the goal players adopt to be able to play is clear and set, ie. get the ball past the net/ trap the king. There is no such thing in ttrpg's, the "goal" could be... just about anything; tactical victory, emotional exploration, the mastery of mechanics, the pathos of mythic tragedy.. Coordinating this is the art of "the table" and something we should focus on more than rulesets, imho.

[@GarredHATES]

Personally I love it but it’s not a game for a group of randoms that’s for sure.

[@FlintFireforge]

There are certainly things to like about the game. I think this kind of game will require a session zero to get everyone on the same page and the DM will just have to be prepared for whatever happens.

[@jessicaryan9820]

With this being open BETA CritRole is obvs working with the community to make the game in line with what people want - that alone makes it better than anything else we currently have. Look at every game that has won game of the year recently and how playtesting was taken into account to give players what they want. I don't think DaggerHeart is done yet - it will go through an evolution and CritRole are absolutely there for it. With the experience Matthew and his team have, and the care they place on their community and craft, I could not think of a better group of people to get this job done. When need to show corporations like Blizzard - oh sorry, meant to say WOTC, that their focus needs to be on the player and not the profit. Give players the power and you'll see what comes of it. I am super excited to see where we are with DaggerHeart in six to twelve months, the other systems this inspires and how companies hopefully start following CritRole's example and involve players in the conversation in a sincere way.

[@WarpathWrel]

For sure. They've slated their release for 2025, which is plenty of time to take in more feedback and make adjustments, and they've had a wonderful test cycle so far. The question is how far they'll want to go with it. The game is solid as is, it's just not what most D&D players are used to.

[@jessicaryan9820]

@@WarpathWrel Though if you want something similar to D&D then just play D&D

[@WarpathWrel]

Werd. That's essentially the point of this whole video.

[@hawaiinshirtguy]

The arguments around the subject of "fiction first" Narrativist RPGs usually boil down to a refusal to accept that only a fraction of the audience shows up to the table to "Create a Collaborative Story", even amongst the people who think that's what they want. Most people I've played with over 2 decades of running games at RPG clubs choose their in world game decisions based on what makes sense to their character rather than what makes for a good story. This is why there's a common complaint about players trying to kill the bad guy while the GM wants them to listen to the monologue. They are doing what you would do in that situation as someone who doesn't want the bad guy to have a chance to escape. PBTA/FITD games, and really therefore Daggerheart work great for the people who have the narrative mindset and are genuinely committed, but their audience is, in my experience a minority of players. Honestly they're like marmite. People love or hate them.

[@CarnaghSidhe]

I think you're right as it happens, and I would be on the other side of the fence from your good self. Been playing since the early 80s, and I have always had the good fortune to be playing with close friends, so we've always had a tendency towards a narrative focus, even with crunchy games such as Shadowrun or Runequest... I'm really looking forward to introduce Daggerheart to our table... and, yes, I like marmite too :)

[@hawaiinshirtguy]

I'm not really making a value judgement about games here. I respect what storygames do, I just find most players think in pragmatic terms more than they believe they do. I personally highly value the stories RPGs create, and think most players do as well, but my path to this is through games that "simulate the fictional world" rather than "emulating the fiction". This and usually not expecting the PCs to be entirely altruistic can lead to fantastic narrative outcomes Ironically I've found that if I play with close friends it's harder to get everyone on the same page in terms of tone etc haha If I go to a club I can pick and choose a bit better rather than being expected to include my idiot mate who wants to spend a campaign living inside a barrel

[@Excalibaard]

I am for one very excited about Daggerheart, having only played 5e. I don't like the argument 'the table needs to play well together, thus we need stricter rules like 5e'. Hiding a lack of communication or dysfunctional group cohesion behind more rigid rule systems is not a healthy table. Sure, we don't need every table to be the same quality as CR. But, if there is a system that encourages people to be and stay engaged instead of going on their phone as they wait for their turn, or a way to do things together instead of only planning your own turn, that in and of itself will already motivate people to be better players. To me these strawman problematic tables seem like it's the rigid system that encourages this behaviour, rather than just being innate unchangeable personalities. Probably somewhere in the middle. With that, the role of GM feels incredibly unbalanced in 5e where they take 100% responsibility for preparing the world. I like forcing players to engage with it and coming up with their additions, which only feeds more into the aspect that we're playing this together vs 'I am an edgy minmaxed rogue and will murder anyone who wont let me do my attack combo'.

[@WarpathWrel]

That's an interesting take, and I can certainly see it from your perspective. I've played with tables that have loud personalities, quiet personalities, and disruptive personalities, but I also wouldn't call them "problematic tables," because that swings the pendulum too far into that direction. Realistically, the rules structure helps enforce the social contract that you should already have at a table -- kind of like... you can have a bunch of different strangers with different personalities standing in line at the amusement park, because we all know that that's what you're supposed to do. It's only the true douchebags, the outliers, that are going to try to skip the line and become problematic.

[@Excalibaard]

@@WarpathWrel Fair take! I definitely didn't mean that having multiple different personalities at the table is by definition 'problematic', and can see that a more rigid structure gives less outspoken people a go in the spotlight. Agreeing on a social contract is also the main reason why a session zero is so important, regardless of the system you decide to use at the table. My take on the Daggerheart system is that it means you don't have to bring your A-game at all times, counterintuitively improving the game experience. If you have somewhat low energy or engagement for a session, it allows other people to include you with a tag team, or to take the burden of storytelling for a bit. You don't need to be taking the spotlight to enjoy being there and forging the world, but you are staying engaged without it. Also: Daggerheart still has a rules structure, but it's shaped differently. For example, it cares much less about the exact numbers and turn order, but much more about 'what does X look like' and 'describe your character doing Y'. This is a key part of some mechanics, even forcing people that gravitate towards minmaxing to engage with RP aspects. Same as with other systems, if you consistently feel someone doesn't really belong at the table at some point, that's something that should be addressed outside the game. I don't expect every TTRPG player will enjoy Daggerheart, but that's also why there are so many systems. People that enjoy number crunch and minmaxing will generally enjoy Pathfinder more than 5e as well, for example.

[@MugiwaraTed]

The workaround for this is extremely simple. The GM still controls the game. If an action hog tries to do too much the GM can simply say “player A, ok you’ve done all these things, player B, what are you doing right now?”. Or if the table still has issues the GM can simply set a rule that the players can take their actions in any order but each player has to go once before someone goes again unless the party agrees that a player needs that second turn. Simple compromises.

[@00blaat00]

Yeah, fair point.

[@cementi4381]

Running this tomorrow as our first test but I have always disagreed with people who say a system is "narrative focused" "combat focused" "roleplay focused". I have seen all those done in literal wargames with no rules whatsoever to support anything but combat. Quite simply virtually every complaint you make is there in every game system since the beginning of the hobby. I have no concerns per say but I have plans in advance for various ways players might try to game the system if they become necessary, like I would running any game. Power gamers will power game or at least try to till you crush them with an iron fist (that comment is mostly just to make them rage about being mean to them). As for players just making a bunch of rolls to build up hope......I mean I guess they could do that but then they would also likely generate just as much fear so net zero imo. Not to mention the fact that as the GM it is not my job to kill the players. Just to make them suffer. Also very VERY simple fix, you just tell the players the roll has to have significance to generate hope or fear.

[@WarpathWrel]

How'd the game go? What were the highs/lows?

[@steveholmes11]

Remember this is the beginning of playtest. Daggerheart will change. Remember also, TTRPGs attract a high proportion of non neurological players. All the utopian "just play with better people" comments seem pretty discriminatory in this context. Many of our players rely on the predictability of clear rules. For them "just mash it up and do your thing" will not cut it.

[@steveholmes11]

Damon autocorrect, for nerological, please read neurotypical.

[@WarpathWrel]

I feel similarly about the "just play with better people" comments. It's got similar vibes to the "just get gud" attitude you see in the video gaming space. Real life is messy, real relationships are messy, and you can have plenty of fun sitting beside a bunch of other flawed human beings who may also be your best friends.

[@TheKodiak72]

Then I hope your players are playing 3.5 or Pathfinder 1E. If not "predictability of clear rules" is bullshit. Pathfinder even has rules for varying temperatures of a enviroment.

[@ThiagoCCosta]

Critical role, literally, mechanized the narrative hahahahha. Thats so bullshit

[@DeadMarsh]

I don’t like Critical Role. I don’t like 5e…but I always love when new games come out. Popular new games are exciting and I had hoped it would be well made. Imo-It unfortunately is not well made (Which was so disappointing considering the resources they have in the industry and financially). I think your criticism is fair.

[@GOLDBlueGR33NObeliskVsRed]

Daggerheart is a dnd killer. I like the fear economy of dm actions. Dm doesnt have actions unless player accumulate fear. Failing or succeeding or abilities with fear give dms fear to use dm actions. IF YOU WANT HARDER CAMPAIGN ADD MORE FEAR THE PLAYERS CAN RENERATE SO DM HAS MORE ACTION. LIKE A INFESTATION OF RATS CROWS SPIDERS SNAKES OR CRABS can be used commonly by dm and you can add half a token to every action the players can do with hope or stress. Want a easier campaign add more hope and stress and lower the fear build. Im considering if there was a war campaign and players had to hide and lie persuade and intimidate or cast spells to get to safety so ID ALLOW MORE ACTIONS AND MORE HOPE AND STRESS AND THEY BUILD MORE FEAR, So i can use more war conflicts and invasions and flanking Daggerheart can be king of huge war campaigns and might deal with swarms and companions better than dnd and pf2. Magic item and feats system isnt out yet but it could implement more fear and stress regeneration so it benefits the dm. If players use too much stress they lose 1 hp bar. So magic items can be restricted without having to ban items. Also crafting magic items will be interesting.

[@sirlaggzzalot]

Maybe To early to say

[@jsoltani]

So I just stand there and take no actions so that the enemy can't take actions on me :D

[@MugiwaraTed]

@@jsoltani and then the DM converts the fear they have built up into action tokens and acts anyway. Each fear the dm has can be converted into two action tokens and vice versa.