I owe £20k in ULEZ charges after honest mistake [LBC Legal Hour]

[@24sumo]

What a horrible country we live in.

[@Whoop0]

A country that upholds its rules? Multiple failures of theirs put them in this situation, take responsibility for your actions.

[@24sumo]

@@Whoop0 Ok. I understand it would be hard for you to empathise when you have never made a mistake in your life. But you should not be on the verge of losing your house because of a stupid mistake, that hurt nobody. They have taken responsibly for their actions. Did you even watch the video?

[@markdrummond7]

4 mistakes, didn't check car's status, didn't notify change of address , didn't divert post, drove repeatedly in zone - on balance it seems wilful. ​@24sumo

[@wasspj]

Just wait until DVLA hit them with £1000 pound fine for failing to update their address.

[@howdan1985]

Exactly. Same with failing to update your Driving Licence details.

[@eIucidate]

Option 3. Approach a right-wing newspaper.

[@jonny9071]

There's obviously more to the story. If you're thinking about the ULEZ at all when you're having to drive into London, then you're probably thinking about your registered address. I suspect this all came from a misguided scheme to avoid paying ULEZ charges, which remain owed even if the additional costs are removed from the fines. 20K is obviously a ludicrous fine beyond the ability of the everyday working person to pay, but it's that high because of the ludicrous gathering of fines. One or two honest mistakes are forgivable, but this many and they start to appear less honest. If they truly are honest, this person probably needs a bit more support in managing their affairs.

[@cyruslad5462]

Could be an elderly relative that doesn't understand. 80% of that owed ammount will be commission to the debt collection company. A 100 x £12.50 plus late payment doesn't come close to 20k.

[@googleuser8740]

@@cyruslad5462 Good point and no legal requirement to pay their fees Daniel doesn't have the balls to say that. Unless its £12.50 for early payment increasing if not paid

[@alastairbarkley6572]

It really isn't difficult to determine whether your vehicle is ULEZ compliant. You enter your car reg on the TfL website for an immediate answer. I'm not sure how this 'out by one year' thing happened. If you didn't check and just assumed, I wouldn't call that 'an honest mistake'. It's not really 'a mistake'' at all.

[@cyruslad5462]

@alastairbarkley6572 older people who've driven all their lives couod easily forget about this bs, when I watched it sounded like something my father would've done, he was intelligent and articulate but also a man of habit.

[@mintywebb]

If they show that level of cognisance they shouldn't be driving anywhere. ​@@cyruslad5462

[@Darren-i1w]

So he had a car, didnt change the address and didnt know it wasnt ulez compliant and kept going in and out of london, pay your bills

[@stepbackandthink]

I would assume that when someone has a car registered somewhere they don't live, it's to get cheaper insurance. Turned out to be a very expensive saving.

[@terrywilliams8864]

What a complete of bollocks

[@ProDemocracy01]

People who were using 4D plates now getting 1000s of pounds fines. Same story

[@tnetroP]

4D plates are completely legal. It's other issues with the plate that usually get people fined. I'm guessing the type of person wanting a 4D plate will be more likely to play around with the spacing etc. No I don't have one (they look a pain in the rear to keep clean).

[@curtisj2165]

They could try writting a grovelling letter to TFL, who may agree to a lower settlement. If TFL obtained a County Court judgment i can't understand how they justified £20,000. If there is a County Court judgment, i would contact the court and ask for the judgment to be set aside so that the case could be heard again with the defendant present. Nothing to lose

[@chrisperry5244]

Ring them and work out a repayment plan, even if you offer one (in writing) and it ever went to small claims court it will work in your favour

[@TsoLan1]

It wouldn't go to small claims court though, that's capped at £10,000 - they're wanting more than double that from him. Offering a payment plan could work though...

[@MartyMcFlyer]

Anyone driving into London on a regular or even semi-regular basis, would register their car with tfl to pay any CC or ULEZ charges, or both. And to combine that with a positive decision not to foward mail, looks like something more than 'an honest mistake'. If tfl had discretion to waive fees, this 'relative' would be the least deserving case imaginable.

[@nicksimmons7234]

1000%

[@ivormectin.3046]

Ulez.. crimes against freedom of travel..or Pay to pollute. Which is it..

[@truecomments7190]

In today’s world, I’m surprised letters, as in actual paper put through an actual door, has not been replaced by some centralised, encrypted, email-like system. It isn’t all that hard to create a self contained secure solution where Government/judicial communication would be possible and guaranteed. Save the paper, save the labour and you’ll see a better carbon saving than fining regular people 20k for a eco fine all because they forgot to setup a post forwarder.

[@tomsixsix]

Agreed. The law places far too much emphasis on postal mail. However, can you imagine how much it would cost to set up? Consultants would get involved, every government department would want a different logo, councils would want to use it... nothing is ever simple these days!

[@DarkMoonEmporium]

I recently retired from a government department, and my job was trying to find ways to improve the services we offered to our customers- particularly in creating easy-to-use online channels to speed up processes and cut costs. It absolutely would be possible to create that "single view" of the customer from a technology point of view. However, the big problem is not tech, but legislation - not a single piece of legislation, either, but a few different Acts that would need to be unpicked. GDPR springs to mind - you can't use the address details you gave HMRC to update your driving licence, for example. You can't even use the change of address on your driving licence to amend your vehicle log book, because the databases are compiled for different purposes. In my specific department, we would have LOVED to use a secure digital channel for communication (most email is not a secure channel , because of the ways in which emails are routed around the net being open to interception. Fax, oddly enough, was considered a secure channel. ) and could have created one, but would still, in certain circumstances, have had to communicate via hard copy/snail mail because the requirement to do so is baked into primary legislation. Yes, laws can be changed, but that needs Parliament time and is not that easy to get for something that's not seen as a Government priority. Unless digital comms gets onto the next Government manifesto, I doubt things will change.

[@tehs3raph1m]

The problem is that this is accepted and contracts aren't written to keep people out, put one person in place to make these decisions, and overages aren't fought as per contract terms. ​@@tomsixsix

[@googleuser8740]

They might forget to check the email like system too and / or update their email address. Can't fix stupid.

[@googleuser8740]

@@tomsixsix Legally proof of posting is classed as proof of notice / service. Email doesn't have this so you would need to prove they received the email

[@ForburyLion]

Try and agree a repayment plan. If the car is registered to the persons business then the business is probably liable, not the employee. If it's a limited company then the owner can not be personally liable. Not sure how this works if he was travelling in his own car for business, probably down to the driver but their business would probably have allowed them to claim the ulez costs back, just not the late payment/legal fees.

[@gregsmith7821]

No sympathy. Knowingly driving into the ULEZ 100 times without pre paying the fee? Thats not an 'honest mistake'. That is deliberate and they have it comming.

[@rob57898]

20k for driving down some roads. zero punishment for being a nonce. Welcome to Great Britain

[@baroncorvo3813]

What has that got to do with it?

[@rob57898]

@baroncorvo3813 just pointing out how broken this country is

[@filthyclown8033]

Yeah, paedos are always being let off… what on earth are you talking about?

[@arthur1670]

Its 2025, why can't government fines go to government portals. Why are we sending letters?

[@nicksimmons7234]

Because of the law. They tried to avoid paying Ulez.

[@arthur1670]

I’m saying all government fine (including councils, County Court judgements etc) should all be in a website, the Royal Mail is now the cash how for a Czech billionaire it can’t be trusted. ULEZ is a joke anyway. Should get 10 entries into each year go over it your vehicle is scrap for parts. That would clean up the air. … that car should been pulled over by the police and scrapped.

[@MrChriskdj]

I had a car once, SORN off the road filed with dvla. Sold it thinking it was for scrap so overlooked registration of new owner, new owner fixed it and was back on the road and I was getting tax letters. So I can see how you can overlook registration of new address.

[@kevinshanahan6064]

I paid a garage to repair my car and a month later picked up a parking ticket which the mechanic would have known about and kept quiet so out of time to not pay discounted sum.

[@googleuser8740]

@@kevinshanahan6064 You can pretty much ignore private parking tickets.

[@paulcollyer801]

@@kevinshanahan6064should have nominated them as the driver

[@paulcollyer801]

I had similar, but when the new owner was to register, not the old. I merely wrote to the DVLA stating who I had sold it to, and gave the reg no. of the recovery truck collecting

[@mintywebb]

So you sold a car a failed to inform DVLA of the sale... Then they are your fines.

[@crispyduck1706]

try an debt management plan - much reduced cost and 80% written off after five years

[@dddddbbb]

How would you think you don't have to pay any ULEZ at all for months?

[@mak.ak.uk.]

Well if you listened to the call, they thought their call was ULEX-compliant and their new address hadn't been updated with DVLA.

[@zx6rpro]

Brutal. Surely the signs and current affairs would start the old brain matter thinking. 20k!!

[@nicksimmons7234]

Wasn’t a Honest mistake.

[@superjke718]

There’s more to this story. You don’t just forget to update your address with dvla and don’t setup post forwarding…

[@garethparker7898]

Many people do forget to do these things unfortunately

[@nabknives3823]

Don't go to stab city period. Northerners prefer the north, much nicer people too😊

[@DaveFinance]

Its a tricky one. On one hand the person has made multiple 'honest' mistakes. Why didn't they update their address? Why didn't they arrange for mail forwarding? Why did they misread the fact that their car was compliant when its not? On the other hand, financially ruining someone over the fact of driving a car through an area which you're not allowed seems insane. At the end of the day, the person in question made multiple mistakes, and this is the price you pay. Unfortunately if everyone 'forgot' and was forgiven then the whole ULEZ thing would be pointless.

[@googleuser8740]

This is a good answer I agree. It could be capped at X amount per year. High enough to deter evasion but low enough not to ruin people like this.

[@paulcollyer801]

To be fair, not everyone knows about mail forwarding, or Redirection as it is sold.

[@DaveFinance]

@@paulcollyer801 That's a fair point. BUT, it's a legal requirement to notify the DVLA of an address change for these exact reasons. It's also on the driver to be aware if their car is compliant or not. Ignorance isn't a defence unfortunately. Whether people agree with something or not doesn't mean people can break the rules without penalty. It's unfortunate but that's how it is.

[@paulcollyer801]

@, I’ve put my thoughts up as a comment separate from any reply.

[@UKRenna]

This is just stupidity. One or two is a mistake, this was avoidable.

[@kevinberry436]

These kind of things really suck and show flaws in the law. The bit that annoys me the most is if it was me I would hold my hand up and say I accept I must pay the £20,000 back, however I don't have that amount in my account, so if we could arrange installments of say £1,000 p/m then you'll get your money back, but they would never accept that which is insane and would put so much stress on someones life.

[@Amakawrites]

really though, what is the flaw in the law? The only person making the mistakes was the driver on multiple fronts.

[@SimoSensaiUK]

You’re talking hypotheticals here about agreements, so I’d suggest that any sensible debt collector would happily take such an agreement.

[@SimoSensaiUK]

And yeah, what flaw?! Driver failed to update cars address, driver failed to check car was ULEZ compliant. The law doesn’t care if the above are done maliciously, ignorantly or accidentally, it simply cares they were done. How is that a flaw? If you allow for ignorance or accident to be a mitigating factor it’d be claimed in 100% of cases making the charge redundant.

[@ExodusX13]

Debt collectors do arrange those sorts of payment plans. You can see it your self on cant pay take it away.

[@hbar895348]

I'm so glad I left London.

[@Victorflange]

Don’t have a lot of sympathy. It had huge publicity before it was brought in. It’s a very simple job to check your vehicle is compliant. There are signs everywhere as you drive in and he’s broken the law anyway but not updating his details.

[@dukeofdevon5608]

Oh well you live and learn by your mistakes. Probably watched videos on KZbin of how to avoid paying ulez and now they been caught

[@googleuser8740]

This is rather unfair despite it being the persons fault. It could be capped at X amount per year. High enough to deter evasion but low enough not to ruin people like this. I think caps would be fair.

[@Sam-qz2by]

And the guy who is responsible for ULEZ has just got a knighthood, make it make sense

[@ArminGrewe]

Boris Johnson? It's his original idea and plan. He announced it. Khan just implemented it after Johnson didn't run for re-election in 2016

[@alastairbarkley6572]

A well deserved honour. I've live in central London on and off for more than 50 years. I remember when you could hardly breath in summertime streets, where blowing your nose at the end of the day produced tar like mucus and black bogies, when old folks croaked unnecessarily from obstructive lung disease in winter fogs, where kids who grew up near main roads had their hair and their bones full of tetra-ethyl lead and so on. ULEZ has banned filth in the inner city's air. You living out in Wimbledon, Stanmore, Mitcham, Dagenham yadda, yadda don't to get clean air while we inner city residents breath your shit. Arise, Sir Sadiq!

[@craiglindsay5929]

Was actually introduced by Boris Johnson. Care about the facts?

[@Haniyehhhh]

​@alastairbarkley6572 the uneducated hillbillies of England love blaming Sadiq and immigrants for all of the problems of the world 😂 he's probably some ford transit driver who's on a greggs and curry diet.

[@medicialpicnic6571]

I’ve been reading these comments and as a therapist, i am shocked by the lack of empathy demonstrated. For all we know this person might have issues with executive functioning and possibly undiagnosed neurodivergence. If that were the case, - their actions would be completely usual.

[@howdan1985]

Sorry but zero sympathy for this person - Sounds like they need to start taking more personal responsibility. What next, they forgot to renew their car insurance? Suck it up and try to set up a repayment plan and make sure all the rules are followed next time.

[@TheCaptScarlett]

Why's it called an appeals process if there's no possibility of changing the outcome? And if someone is facing bankruptcy I'd be expecting Vulnerability to be a factor. I've a sneaking suspicion the Financial Conduct Authority covers monetary actions like this and they're unlikely to sit idly by if there's the sniff of a misconduct fine to be had. So buckle up TfL.

[@jamesupton4996]

Too many mistakes, all to be 'honest'

[@markdrummond7]

Long story short = important facts deleted.

[@michaelgoode9555]

I have to say that I am sceptical about this "honest mistake". Why is it crazy to expect somebody to pay their legal dues?

[@DerpBane]

If you drop a cigarette butt and the law is that you get fined £30,000 for littering, then would you dismiss any discussion about whether its fair or whether its deserved with the braindead statement "is it crazy to expect you to pay legal dues?". The fundamental ethical concern is whether its fair to charge someone penalty fines for something they know nothing about, such that it costs them their bank account

[@adamgillett1]

​@@DerpBanethe law doesn't say that though. And we also don't know that this person "didn't know". And ignorance isn't an excuse (as in the case of speeding - I "didn't know" it was a 30. This happened to me recently, I didn't know but it's my responsibility to know and for me to deal with the consequences. Perils of being an adult I'm afraid.

[@DerpBane]

@adamgillett1 Yes, the law doesnt say that, are you familiar with the purpose of a hypothetical? The difference with not knowing the speed limit of the road ur on, and this situation, is that this situation involves accumulative penalties for not addressing the problem. It would be like you driving on a road thats a 30, not knowing its a 30, and getting a fine for speeding but nobody telling you that you were speeding so you dont change behaviour and keep accumulating fines until you have to go bankrupt despite trying to follow the law. You should be responsible for the first transgression, but there should be a cutoff for how many penalties you accumulate when accumulated through ignorance. Whether or not it was an actual mistake is a different matter

[@RobParasol1970]

@@DerpBane But it isn't £30,000 for littering. It is £150. And dropping a cigarette butt is a conscious act. You can't do it accidentally so many times that you are caught and charged 200 times.

[@yorkiemike]

@@DerpBane But your hypothetical is so different to the issue at hand as to be useless. "getting a fine for speeding but nobody telling you that you were speeding" - but they did tell him, it was his own fault though that he didn't arrange mail forwarding. "there should be a cutoff for how many penalties you accumulate when accumulated through ignorance" - should there? Why? How many times do you think you should be penalised for speeding before they just start letting you get away with it?

[@Sankara561]

Honest mistakes my arse

[@googleuser8740]

Why would they do it deliberately knowing it will catch up with them. Makes no sense.

[@AndrewLakeUK]

@@googleuser8740 because they thought it wouldn't catch up on them, because they thought they were above the law, or that they thought they could blag it if caught. That's three off the top of my head, don't confuse the paucity of your imagination with what's possible.

[@googleuser8740]

@AndrewLakeUK You are extremely imaginative in your explanation. No one would of reasonable intelligence would think not updating their address would magically allow them to get away with it otherwise lots of people would do it. What evidence do you have that it was deliberate? Could it be none?

[@AndrewLakeUK]

@googleuser8740 what a strange question, of course I don't have evidence, it's a stranger on a video. How could I have any evidence? We're speculating at best. Not being able to imagine a world where people may lie for profit doesn't mean we should sack the fraud squad.

[@googleuser8740]

@AndrewLakeUK exactly why make claims you have no evidence for.

[@XENUGOLFCLUB]

He used the pronouns him and they - imagine the distress, embarrassment and offence he could have caused by not choosing his words really carefully. Life’s harder that way eh

[@AndrewLakeUK]

I don't understand what you mean, can you explain?

[@ismayb754]

​@AndrewLakeUK some people are seriously triggered by specific things (like people using the word "they") and they go around watching KZbin videos so they can comment about it every time they hear it, even when it's got nothing to do with the point of the video. Because they are THAT angry about it! It really lives rent free in their head to such an extent that, in a video about someone running up traffic fines of £20k, their only thought is "Omg the person said 'they'! Life is not EXACTLY the same as it was when I was a kid! Waaahhhh!!!! 😭😭😭😭😭"

[@AndrewLakeUK]

@@ismayb754It sounds like those little snowflakes need a little sit down, and some ribena (low sugar obvs, we don't want to make it worse). It must be horrible for them, to be afraid of a tiny word like that. I get it I have phobias, I can't stand bees. I have vertigo too, not just a fear of heights but a spinning dizzy sensation that is for me brought on by heights (I used to live on the 6th floor I couldn't leave the wall when I went out to the balcony) but it would be weird to be @XENUGOLFCLUB inventing things to be angry about.

[@howdan1985]

😂😂😂

[@wokeupandsmellthecoffee214]

You can thank SIR Siddiq Khan for this yet people still voted him in ffs, go figure that out !!

[@TheCaptScarlett]

Chances are this individual doesn't live in London but drives in on occasion. Us home shire peasants sponsoring London's NY fireworks with our TfL commuting and ULEZ fines. - I type this Saturday warmly in front of my log burner as the smoke heads towards London

[@HKFunster]

ULEZ was started by Boris Johnson yet people still voted for him to lead the country ffs, go figure that one out !!

[@TheCaptScarlett]

@@HKFunster Extension of ULEZ was also a condition of the Johnson Govt post-pandemic rescue package to TfL. But oddly Khan didn't use that line or explanation. Neither did Labour at the Uxbridge by-election

[@wizzdom]

Sounds like an honest mistake to me but appealing for common sense from large businesses/corporations in a world where there is none left was always going to be difficult.

[@historex54tamiya]

At least khan got knighted, all whilst bankrupting a family!

[@AndrewLakeUK]

He didn't force them to drive the car, so much for personal responsibility.

[@admiralrooster]

@@AndrewLakeUK Conservative values are only conservative values when they impact others

[@Haniyehhhh]

​@@AndrewLakeUKa certain demographic in England love to blame Saddiq Khan for every crime and unfortunate event that occurs. Apparently he is personally responsible for the demise of Britain 😂😂 No accountability or shame, making absurd comments like this.

[@historex54tamiya]

@@AndrewLakeUK Personal responsibility would mean scrapping ULEZ altogether. London should never have become a dictatorship!

[@AndrewLakeUK]

@historex54tamiya not quite sure you got that right, personal responsibility doesn't mean you don't care about the health and wellbeing of others, that's called being a sociopath. Easy mistake to make. Talking about mistakes, I don't think you know what a dictatorship is, here's a clue, it doesn't involve elections. What you mean is that you don't understand democracy. Like 15 minutes cities and Wales' 20mph law, things that bring universal benefit to all are somehow political, there is no real argument against ulez except a purely emotional one from babies who like playing Brum Brum.