Employer withdraws job offer the day before the new job starts [LBC Legal Hour]

[@Drenwickification]

So let me get this straight. He says they promptly sent him the contract and then they emailed him multiple times to sign and get it back to them but he had ‘family issues’ and took ages to get it back to them. Then they had barely any time to check his references due to him sending it at the last minute (perhaps after not replying to any of their prior emails), then after they cancel they employment he wants to sue them? This guys needs to grow a pair

[@Mark-kh1ny]

He’s clearly not a detail man. However, although I completely understand how that compensation is derived, how do you account for the fact that he left a paying job, which presumably would have continued to pay him, month after month, as a direct consequence of their contract offer? He’s now unemployed and has no money coming in. Why aren’t these loses accounted for?

[@nifralo2752]

The same reason why if your house gets burgled you get money back for the stolen TV but diddly squat for the stress

[@MrHighRaw]

Isn't pain and suffering literally something you can have valued in a claim?

[@paulthomas8262]

@@MrHighRaw rarely. It not possible in certain type of claim an where is is possible you need some evidence e.g. diagnosis and you need to prove a direct cause and effect.

[@paulmidsussex3409]

He was starting on 7 June but gave them his references on 4 June? My guess is they got fed up of waiting.

[@mikestead3804]

I was told never give a negative reference, if the person was not up to scratch to just state recline to comment, and that stops you getting sued

[@Snookbone]

decline

[@TangyTomTom]

@@SnookboneI dunno, ‘recline to comment’ has a certain ring and meaning to it

[@mattwinstanley2544]

@@TangyTomTom I agree- I picture the person just sitting back in their office chair and responding to the request with a simple "no" = recline to comment😄

[@spinmaster0]

You can say certain things. You just can't give an irrelevant or inaccurate reference by law. But unless you work for HR or know what you are doing, be cautious when giving a reference if you ever have to give one, especially a personal reference. If the attendance record was 50% for example, you can say that. If the person was disciplined for fraud within the company, that will be relevant to certain types of job. If the person was dismissed, then that can be mentioned - you don't have to say why. You can even say that you would not hire this person again up to a point. It may be bad but it is both true and relevant to any job. But to avoid any hassle, it is far easier to simply decline to give a reference, and if you really must do so, make it as generic as possible.

[@101spacemonkey]

I had this happen. I had a start date and everything and had turned down other work to accept it. They never sent the contract to sign but everything else was in place and there were no issues and references were fine. I was really upset at how unprofessional they were about it all

[@harrismazari5484]

The company defintely went and hired someone else because he wasn't getting back to them. When he finally did get back to them they rescinded the offer.

[@Drenwickification]

Yeah, and it’s completely his own fault. Whether or not he really had ‘family issues’ it doesn’t take long to sign a contract, and he clearly didn’t read it anyway. Then rather than learning a lesson and moving on he wants to sue them!! I think the company probably dodged a bullet not hiring him tbh 😅

[@stephenwhiddett]

I've heard in the past that it's illegal for a referee to give a 'bad' reference. I was told they can give minimum detail, just stating that you worked for the company and when, but can't say you're a bad worker or similar. Any truth to that?

[@leesaunders8407]

Generally speaking an employers reference has to be factual so an employer could say an employees reason for leaving was because they were dismissed for example. Or resigned before disciplinary, they could give comments on their performance yes. However most employers just give the basics, start/end date, job title because it just isn't worth the hassle. There are exceptions for regulated environments think, doctors/nurses etc where they would give a more detailed reference.

[@allananderson949]

I can't imagine that there is a law that compels you to lie.

[@GS44691]

@@allananderson949 Except the law of unintended consquesequences which is quite popular.

[@coderider3022]

Old fashioned now, name rank serial number is about it.

[@shetlandsheep3081]

When I worked for a major bank we never gave any other reference other than dates that the employee worked for the bank, whether they were amazing or crap. Just policy not to comment any further.

[@dhvsheabdh]

Incredible that the company is allowed to assume, with no further evidence, argument or demonstration, that a week is all he would have lasted, being fired on the first day. Are we all to accept in our hearts that this really makes sense?

[@cheeky_monkey_No1]

that just sounds so unfair! So the tribunal will not consider at all the time it takes to find a job aka lost earnings due to their unreasonable actions???

[@josephnicholson6776]

It's not the company saying he would last less than a week, it's in your probation period a company can get rid of you for no reason at all, so legally if they didn't want to employ him anymore, they could just wait until he turns up day 1 and tell him to do one but would have to pay his notice period.

[@pizzaboy4463]

The contract is likely to afford some notice from day one or state entitlement to notice after a set period. In the absence of a contractual right, there would be a claim for reasonable notice under common law. Fir this type of job, it's likely to be minimal but something.

[@josephnicholson6776]

A contract has to state your notice period. If no probationary notice period is stated it would default to the notice period of employment whatever that is.

[@fanaticalspud323]

@@josephnicholson6776 There isnt an employment contract that anybody on our level is getting that DOESNT have a probationary period

[@josephnicholson6776]

@@fanaticalspud323 I was talking about a notice period specific to the probationary period. Please read my comment again.

[@Padraigp]

Makes no sense to put references on a contractn refwrences should go on your cv and be called before they even offer you a job.

[@P.G.Wodelouse]

seems sus waited 2 weeks before signing and basically gave them a Friday afternoon at best to sort out his employment after he confirmed he wanted the job, not a great start to a job. i am sure it is nothing to do with references but his shoddy time-keeping skills.

[@moc7323]

Surely you’d check references before job offer ..?

[@nickm3251]

It is not usual that references are checked before job offer. Post-pandemic, some jobs roles have received thousands of applicants (average admin role received over 2000 applicants in 2022), it would be impossible to check references as part of the recruitment process. I know that figure is on the higher end and not all jobs would have that many applicants, but generally recruiters hire based on interviews/cvs/assessment days, then verify information once the selection is made.

[@moc7323]

@@nickm3251 yes .. but if you have it down to say 3/4 candidates At that point you’d check the references and then choose from best reference before offering job .. basically all your homework should be done before offer .. or else don’t offer job

[@leesaunders8407]

@@moc7323 References don't tell you much they only really confirm start date/end date you won't get much more than that. And no employee would want their current employer knowing they're interviewing elsewhere.

[@Pureblood002]

Something similar happened to me , I had written confirmation of the job offer , I accepted and left my job , the night before I was due to start they rang me and said that there had been a mix up with equipment contracts ( it was a Storeman job ) and the role was no longer needed at least for the foreseeable future, they rang me back a day or two later and told me there had been a mistake and the job was "on again" , I was working somewhere else by then ( although an awful job ) and didn't trust them enough to leave another job on their word written or otherwise. ( I left the previous job earlier than my notice so I even sacrificed some pay to start when they needed me to, then when they told me the job was "off" I said the the woman on the phone "I left my job for this and sacrificed some salary to start this job" all she said was "sorry about that" .

[@vanman266]

Lazy worker couldn’t be bothered to get the contract back to them promptly.

[@crispyduck1706]

What if you have given up a perfectly good job to go there - surely loss of earnings til you get a new job should apply

[@evo5dave]

Almost certainly down to the references. Even if it wasn't they could claim it was.

[@jsworpin]

They’d have to produce the references and state why they declined based on them.

[@ForburyLion]

I worked at a place which offered a role to a university leaver who had previously been on a placement there, They withdrew the offer the day he was due to start after he'd relocated 100's of miles for the role. I believe they gave him a months redundancy but only after word got out and there was a backlash towards the manager. The same manager made someone redundant when they were on holiday and when they came back to work they found their pass wouldn't work and then after being buzzed in found they couldn't logon to their PC so they were logging it with the IT dept. The manager finally strolled in at 10am. I was also made redundant by them, I had an IT guy hovering around my desk and was called into a meeting and made redundant with immediate effect. Seemed a bit stupid to not let me do any kind of handover to whoever was expected to pick up the slack, but not my problem.

[@skippy14712]

I think this company dodged a bullet not employing him, what a joker!

[@gbhxu]

But what would happen if you had left one job for the new job?

[@cha9165]

Who submits their new work contract a few days before he's meant to start and previous job has finished. I always make sure references are done, contract signed then hand in my notice and provide a new start date

[@GS44691]

Hopeful, trusting people. You'd be surprised how many people trust other folks to act with honour.

[@matthewsmith2787]

Very unprofessional of the company. Unless there was a good reason as to why

[@benjamindantzie8053]

As Daniel suggested, sub-standard reference maybe?

[@theworldisfullofrightwingcnts]

Guaranteed it was poor references. People seem to think they can use colleagues and Gmail addresses then don't have a clue why that doesn't cut the mustard

[@WooWoo-co4jf]

If 'family issues' stops him signing and returning a form he's not going to be a good employee. We all have things go belly up in our lives, unfortunately it's life. He took the p**** & he got the consequences

[@akn6360]

Riyadh has the right to find out the actual reason why he was turned down by the new employer from his recruiter, The recruiter is aware of this and by law will confirm to him why his contract was turned down. Poor references can be challenged by law and if it is that, then is the way for him to find out and go back to his previous employer and resolve issues where possible, by law an employer isn't allowed to give bad references unless otherwise i.e theft, dismissal, misconduct etc. Evidence is critical and If that's not the case, like Daniel mentioned he will be paid accordingly.

[@dazza4345]

He can request his personnel file under the freedom of data act.

[@thipsoudasettle1313]

how employment law work if employment was not give document policy and unpaid of hours i work also they give me car to drive to work without insurent cover the company was say i can drive company car?

[@brethren4life152]

It could be that they did a crb or credit check and something undesirable back.

[@coderider3022]

I recruited a guy, he provided referees as expected, HR came back to me and said this current boss was absolutely scathing about him. I gave him a chance, worked within 6 months then had to get rid of him for various reasons. To this day, he never knew that person rather than saying No, did this to him.

[@elgee6202]

What's wrong with him doing that? A reference doesn't have to be positive. But it should be genuine. As a landlord I've had councils ask me for tenant references and I'm always honest. What they do with the information I provide and how it affects any decisions they take is their business.

[@probablynotmyname8521]

Be careful here daniel, an email being sent is not the same as an email being received. Although i dont know the test used in england for contract law, not my jurisdiction, you cant assume it was received or indeed reached the intended recipient. I know the legal profession seem to think that email is instantaneous but that is demonstrably wrong, judges especially have a rather simple understand of how email works. For reference email is better thought of as asynchronous communication, it is not synchronous or analogous to a telephone call, the name even tells you that.

[@pillar0505]

There is the postal rule of acceptance within the jurisdiction of England & Wales

[@probablynotmyname8521]

@@pillar0505 does the postal rule apply to email? It doesnt in my jurisdiction, australia. In australia we still have the postal rule but for email acceptance is considered to be on receipt and can the email can be accessed, which is another dodgy area but the legal profession doesnt seem to know much about how the internet actually works. They think its pipes etc…

[@Idontknowwhatnametopick]

Just has this happen to me. Gutted

[@chillired5389]

From the way he was with this phone call to Daniel, he would’ve been dismissed anyway! They just put him out of his misery sooner rather than later🙂

[@Ukipmiddleleft]

He doesn't sound very articulate tbh and I reckon he has simply somehow got the wrong end of the stick. Plenty of jobs going in BK

[@gingerssmelllikecabbageand8708]

Mate you sound like trouble, I get it, it’s shitty when you don’t get the job and with the 11th hour been dropped, But don’t take it personally, gather yourself up, dust your self down, you’ve not done a minute in the position, so your not entitled to a penny. When I worked on building sites at 15 yrs I was told three simple facts. 1. Get to work on time, 2. Do the work asked of you 3. Don’t give the gaffer unnecessary guff . You’d be amazed be how many people fall down on these three basic rules.

[@gingerssmelllikecabbageand8708]

Mate you sound like trouble, I get it, it’s shitty when you don’t get the job and with the 11th hour been dropped, But don’t take it personally, gather yourself up, dust your self down, you’ve not done a minute in the position, so your not entitled to a penny. When I worked on building sites at 15 yrs I was told three simple facts. 1. Get to work on time, 2. Do the work asked of you 3. Don’t give the gaffer unnecessary guff . You’d be amazed be how many people fall down on these three basic rules.

[@harrismazari5484]

You are a low skilled worker. He isn;t. There is a difference. I have pushed back and literaelly ridiculed my boss and when we came out of the meeting he ahs literally hugged me because I saved him contracts worth millions. If you are highly skilled and very good at your job you don't follow crazy 3 pointers like the ones you mentoned. I know if my boss fires me he will give me at least a 2 months notice because he needs me to train the next guy. Otherwise, he will lose a contract worth at least 10m a year in profits to him.

[@gingerssmelllikecabbageand8708]

Sounds like you have no respect for anyone, even your clients

[@harrismazari5484]

@@gingerssmelllikecabbageand8708 Sorry my time is far more importanbt than to entertain anything from low skilled people

[@harrismazari5484]

@@gingerssmelllikecabbageand8708 Take it as my good deed for the year that i will not destroy you with a good comeback adn will let you have a "wi". good kid

[@harrismazari5484]

@@gingerssmelllikecabbageand8708 so easy to bring you back after you had the last word. So easy to get under the skin of low iq low skilled people lol

[@gingerssmelllikecabbageand8708]

Mate you sound like trouble, I get it, it’s shitty when you don’t get the job and with the 11th hour been dropped, But don’t take it personally, gather yourself up, dust your self down, you’ve not done a minute in the position, so your not entitled to a penny. When I worked on building sites at 15 yrs I was told three simple facts. 1. Get to work on time, 2. Do the work asked of you 3. Don’t give the gaffer unnecessary guff . You’d be amazed be how many people fall down on these three basic rules.

[@schrire39]

“You’re not entitled to a penny” You paid zero attention to Daniel’s reply. You’re the one who sounds like trouble.

[@gingerssmelllikecabbageand8708]

@@schrire39 i can be trouble. Work in the construction sector, site and office bound. Employee 70+. That’s a lot of checks and mouths to feed. I’m salaried and monthly payed, but the men and women in the ground are weekly. They always get payed before is in the office. I’m an advocate for sick leave, maternity/paternity pay, private health care and high standard of health and safety. But a company has two criteria to fill, turns profit and productivity. I do hiring and firing all the time, it’s the nature of business, it’s just some people want a free ride. Nothing is for free, even the dole is payed off the back of someone else labour. And I play fair and within employment law.

[@gaddyfree1085]

@@gingerssmelllikecabbageand8708 funny username