DARK MECHANICUM RISING | Warhammer 40000 Lore/History/Speculation

[@Luetin09]

Are the Dark Mechanicum on the horizon to return in a bigger way to the galaxy of the Imperium? If you enjoyed - please like the video Not Subscribed?? Just know... that Lord ALGO frowns upon this

[@Aaron-hb4wu]

My Flesh for Luetin!

[@awesomehpt8938]

Would you ever do a video on daemon engines and such?

[@ubb3rd756]

Subscribed and the notification came up in the pub. Appreciate waiting for the final whistle before you uploaded

[@DirtHermit]

Your call to Bellllasarius Cawl's similarities to the Dark Mechanicum is one Ive held myself. Its the reason I can't bring myself to trust him lol

[@cultistii5477]

9:24 9:24 9: 9:29 9:30

[@reillyobrien4372]

As a machinist I've found that WH40K actually provides the best analogies for my real life jobs in corporate trainwrecks being propped up by a failing empire. My current position seriously feels like I've seen the glorious golden age of technology in my previous jobs, but I can't risk sharing my knowledge because my superiors are a bunch of absolute morons who have guessed their way through so far and remain extremely insecure in their elevated position as a result. Every guess that didnt make it worse becomes a permanent part of the process, even if its obviously a waste of time that doesn't make any sense. A bunch of lazy idiots who get paid very well to constantly lie about their understanding and competence spent an entire week of meetings to come to a nonsensical decision and at this point I'd rather just waste the time instead of risking my neck trying to do something properly.

[@ClubQRoundDeux]

I imagine that is a feeling many of the perpetuals felt and why they stayed hidden for so long. You let them blunder and blindly feel around towards success. And you know enough to avert a major catastrophe.

[@lo-fidevil2950]

That does sound pretty 40k. I’d watch out for unspeakable warp entities around the shop. If you notice a coworker doing ritual cannibalism maybe talk to HR.

[@theREALmistafu]

Thats like what working for big tech/big industrial player fells like today. It's either you waste your time with mundane bs cause noone understands anything anymore or you have to do anything you ever touch.

[@armyfirefighter]

Just yesterday your very first vid on 40k lore came up on my random suggested. You said that discussing 40k lore was so complex that it "I could spend several weeks" talking about it. And now, over 9 years later, still going strong talking the lore.

[@enzoaugusto1577]

What video was it?

[@THExRISER]

@@enzoaugusto1577 "your very first vid on 40k lore"

[@jihadjoe4957]

He meant it in the sense of real time not by youtube standards.

[@EasilyIrritatedimp]

In the hot humidity of the afternoon sun; there is only Luetins lore and a water break for solace.

[@Guaguadeath]

Dude same. It's 96 out here in SoCal working outside sucks lol

[@armstrong2052]

Over 100 in Montana today and yesterday 😅 the emperor protects from these heretical sun rays!

[@genericalfishtycoon3853]

​@@armstrong2052 100+ here in Maine today and tomorrow too. The humidity is the worst part, over 90% humidity coupled with triple digits makes this absolutely ridiculous.

[@Ponkan45]

That's like most days here in Memphis in summer

[@manny2684]

Bro it’s so freaking humid.

[@Tengenstein]

It always strikes me as odd when people underestimate how easily technology can be lost. 90% of the technology we use today is understood by a laymen, or even a technically adept person to recreate. I'm a net work engineer. I can't make fibre cables, or IR lasers, or transistors, or micro chips. I'd need all of those as precursors

[@Tengenstein]

Well this comment aged like a corpse. 1 bad security later and half the planets IT bluescreened. Scrap code is intentionally trying to corrupt your machine. Crowdstrike did it by accident

[@runtergerutscht4401]

Technology is easy today because we have a lot of people who have put in a lot of effort to learn it. Make those not work for a generation by, for example, making them fight in a war, and burn the books, and boom now we have a problem

[@KronosJu]

I'm having a surgery in 12 hrs and was heavily struggling. Tried to sleep the whole day yesterday because I was so anxious and couldn't handle it. This was the best that could happen to me. 10 minutes in earlier, fell asleep. Restarted now after waking up. Hoping to fall asleep again and will put it on repeat. Even if the Lore knowledge of your videos is hella awesome Luetin, mad respect and thanks for you being the comfort creator for so many people.

[@cburger4life144]

Hope surgery goes smoothly and recovery is quick my friend! The Emperor protects!

[@entilzha1283]

Rest in the Emperor's Peace, best of luck for your recovery.

[@Luetin09]

Hope it all goes well mate

[@boercarlyle]

Good luck with the surgery fam. You got this. May the Omnissiah be with you

[@Cautionary_Tale_Harris]

I hope your Black Carapace procedure went well.

[@GarGhuul]

“Half the fun of Mad Science is when it all goes horribly awry!” -Dr.Geist.

[@danielmatei4590]

One of the most interesting factions of W40k . Their pursuit of knowledge in any shape or form regardless of consequences may be heretical but i always thought that if humanity is to survive ,that forbidden knowledge is also necessary . Can't fight what you don't understand .

[@williamchristensen7354]

*Radical inquisitors have entered the chat.*

[@Klongu_Da_Bongu]

Mechanicum: "Y'all got any of dem uhh... STC's?"

[@danielmatei4590]

At this point i dont think an STC could help the present Imperium to much , especially if it's intact. Half of the knowledge would be considered heretical and would probably be destroyed . Maybe in a millennium or two but doubtful .

[@karlnicholson414]

It's the one facet of the imperium I don't get,... I have this old machine, it turns my lights on and pumps water, but I dont know how it was built .... Nor does my church want me learning how it was built so if it brakes I am fucked, at some point necessity has to step in and be like, I don't care what the fuckin church says I live on a subzero iceball of a planet, i need a generator, learning how to trap a soul to it, hetetical but basic maintenance? C'mon

[@alastor8091]

>can't fight what you don't understand And yet humanity has been mud stomping every advanced alien race they've encountered for the last 10k years, and the Necrons get their cocks snapped on the regular.

[@ShadowlessFist]

I am SO READY for Dark Mechanicum to be a Faction in 40K. Even if their rules and units are just a mirror of the Admech. With Vashtorr's introduction to the setting it seems a no brainer that he should usher in a surge of Dark Mech activity. They seem like ideal allies. It would be a fantastic opportunity for great miniatures.

[@geneangrypenguin5876]

You're talking about a system that introduced a new Chaos Demi God that isn't available as a unit for Chaos Daemons. We got Emperor's Children coming so I doubt we will see a 2nd new army this edition.

[@davehall263]

Sleep club where u at?!

[@Sword-xb7nu]

Checking in

[@Glückless]

HERE!)

[@VonFoughman]

Right here

[@gavinnic5369]

✋

[@ryan.1990]

Keep it down I'm trying to sleep!

[@sumahuma6054]

Stay awake-and-listen-to-the-entire-video club where you at?

[@javiercamacho1998]

Right here! Applying liquid green stuff to miniatures as I listen.

[@clarenceshepherd2992]

I watch on my morning drives and to go to sleep. We're all team Luetin

[@666magic]

Sleep is weakness of the flesh

[@RyanWilson-qy7kb]

based and wakepilled

[@Zmorris666]

Always

[@Lumen_Obscurum]

The thing about the Dark Mechanicum, is that on the whole they only kinda worship Chaos. Warp entities are seen as a resource, something to use, rather than something to be worshipped and venerated. The issue is, warp entities don't want to be turned into spicy batteries, they want to be worshipped and empowered, so the Dark Mechanicum has to have little cults all drawing in spicy batteries with fervent worship and sacrifice that then they can capture for their own ends. Their Heresy isn't the worship of Chaos, but the rejection of the tenents of the Omnissiah. Potentially one of the greatest misnomers in 40k is "the" Horus Heresy, when in actuality it was Horus' and Other Heresies. That also explains why the Dark Mechanicum doesn't tend to ascend to Daemonhood. To them, it isn't an increase in power, it is becoming a spicy battery for their continued experiments. The only transcendence they could conceivably undergo, is in order to become the central core powering and controlling an entire Forge World. And even then, despite having all that power, they would be limited versus their non-Daemon self as they can no longer experiment to their heart's content. They can no longer pursue the spark of invention down every path and instead must rely on intermediaries to do it for them.

[@SlurpeeBoy9999]

I can see there being different factions/theologies within heretic Mechanicum. While some definitely think in this way, others may have become genuine worshipers.

[@ShadowlessFist]

Because Demons exist outside of linear time, many can offer knowledge of lost technologies or the locations things long though lost.

[@Lumen_Obscurum]

@@ShadowlessFist Except that daemons lie, so no matter what they tell you, you can't trust them. Even if you bind and control them, even if you verify it, you're gonna get screwed. No intel via daemon can be trusted.

[@IndustrialBonecraft]

Dark Mechanicus: unironically the most useful people in the whole setting.

[@krillnyetheshrimpguy6152]

Just a big open source project lmao

[@cameronmilby1613]

Everyone needs mad engineers.

[@Wickybizob1]

Would love a series from GW about a "Dark" mechanicum planet that is actually just a planet that makes new stuff and trades with everyone and genuinely gets along with everyone...until an Inquisitor finds out.

[@JohnGrigg-gz9gm]

It would make for a great book series, perhaps a trilogy.

[@tylerpetersen6226]

Dark mechanicum succeeds in putting a slaaneshi demon in a toaster.

[@kemarisite]

"Where are the toasters you promised us?"

[@cantorofleng7837]

Slaaneshi Fleshlight with app support was NOT something I needed to think of today.

[@tylerpetersen6226]

@@kemarisite 01010100 01101111 01100001 01110011 01110100 01100101 01110010 00100000 01110000 01110010 01101001 01110110 01101001 01101100 01100101 01100111 01100101 01110011 00100000 01101000 01100001 01110110 01100101 00100000 01100010 01100101 01100101 01101110 00100000 01100100 01100101 01101110 01101001 01100101 01100100 00101110

[@tylerpetersen6226]

@@kemarisite Quiet, you.

[@Ikxi]

Projekt Melody? xD

[@branominal]

Luetin gym club checking in

[@seanalonzo9244]

Glad I'm not the only one.

[@Guaguadeath]

Dude same lol Nothing like a good long run while listening to some lore to get lost in and lose track of how long you've even been running for

[@branominal]

@@Guaguadeath ... Run?

[@genericalfishtycoon3853]

​@@GuaguadeathDost thou even hoist?

[@Hettikus]

Pumping iron while listening to 40k lore is the best :)

[@awesomehpt8938]

At least they actually invent new things and do some creative thinking. Sure they may be evil but details details.

[@iSqueam]

Heretical of you to assume there’s a difference

[@SimonMester]

ah yes, thank god the lobotomizing, hacksaw surgeons are good guys xd

[@JohnGrigg-gz9gm]

Dark Mechanicum at work... "Just put a demon in it..." "Oh, and put a demon in that, too!" Lol

[@pkpong]

I think both the mechanicus and the dark mechicum are on two ends of the spectrum of bad. Brutal stagnation and oppression of innovation is bad for many obvious reasons, but blind invention and research without care of restraint or decency is not only dangerous but also evil

[@flyingsquirrel1486]

Sleep gang are real ones I watch every video like 10 times as I go across each night getting 8 min further

[@wubsyman5796]

Uploading this at 11pm is a chad move

[@logangodofcandy]

He released it at 14:30 American Eastern time

[@sirbonobo3907]

He didnt

[@jason_eh]

@@logangodofcandy its 11pm somewhere?

[@seanread5556]

with all these incredible daemon engines and Vashtor having models nowadays it is BEYOND stupid that geedubz still hasn't released a Dark Mechanicus army. Half of the basic units could even just be mild resculpts of the Mechanicus models they ALREADY HAVE! Unfortunately, interesting new things aren't Primaris, so we probably won't see them anytime soon despite how interesting AND easy they would be to add to 40K

[@arithmetikmilitantpoetry9548]

they are criminally underused😢 love some of the fan art

[@Gobeman]

Luetin, Luetin, Lutin... Here you go again giving me nearly an hour of Lore to fall asleep to 1 hour before midnight in my timezone. Good job lad, Appreciate the effort as usual and i'll certainly relisten to this a few times when i wake up again to make 100% sure i listend correctly Thanks for the work you keep creating everytime Buddy

[@Glückless]

Good night sleep from Berlin, while we fall asleep to the same video)

[@HarperStephens-q7o]

This automatically gets two views from me, once in ten minutes where i fall asleep and again when i want to actually take the lore in

[@pianospawn1]

Luetin cares not from where the views come. Just that they do.

[@chrism3562]

Out on my deck in the summer heat while priming my Tyranids and enjoying a Luetin lore video? Great way to spend a Sunday afternoon.

[@chrislyne377]

Feeling down about the football and Luetin goes and drops the perfect pick me up!

[@dennisallwood6667]

My thoughts exactly!

[@Leon-cv5uz]

So close too, the lore takes your mind off it perfectly!

[@Erik_Arnqvist]

Every man loves his wife until...

[@aubinicoleau]

​@@Erik_Arnqvist... the Dark Mecanicum arises.

[@GeoffreyBronson]

It's coming home next time lad

[@nuclearsimian3281]

Looks like Luetin's back on the menu, boys!

[@HCUhardcoreUnited]

The getting home from work and doing things around the house crew here.

[@LuciusSicarius]

29:38 Bringing back the Men of Iron would honestly be a cool thing to do. Would essentially introduce a whole new faction to the setting as either another mortal enemy of the Imperium or a neutral, tense relations kind of relationship. Would just depend on how they do it. If they changed the lore to where the Emperor had the remnants of the Men of Iron just locked away dormant somewhere similar to the Necrons, I could see the Imperium bringing them back if the situation got desperate enough.

[@jamesrodgers5422]

Gonna listen twice. Now, and for about four minutes before falling asleep later.

[@_walruseater]

Always

[@MaticustheRed]

Flawless.

[@15DEAN1995]

The dark mechanicus having access to a functional but empty shell of a man of iron is huge. If they're smart they'll try to create copies then use the original as a vessel for kelbor hal or something, if he still exists since we haven't seen him in 10k years

[@SLICK-GLN]

I don't sleep I meditate to Luetin let's get that straight.

[@SamGears]

On repeat for approx 8 hours

[@Makkovar]

Honestly, listening to this, the main differences between Dark Mechanicum and Mechanicus: >the horrific war engines sometimes have demons in them >computer viruses

[@purplesonics9964]

We need a 40k Scrapheap Challenge

[@V3RTIGO222]

The horror of unfettered, unfiltered, and unrelenting pursuit of technological advancement... Devoid of moral concern, and a terrifying reign of beyond brutal pragmatism.

[@billykebabs81]

Sounds kinda like our current (2024) scientific and technology community. I'm a scientist by the way! 😂

[@V3RTIGO222]

@@billykebabs81 I'd argue our standards for research have as of yet fallen back to such depravity, considering the many more unethical experiments that occured decades ago, which lead to the much stricter laws we have now regarding human and animal testing... but the venture into AI has indeed had many consequences that people selectively chose to ignore because of the money it could theoretically make them.

[@robcanisto8635]

​@@V3RTIGO222 big tech in general have absolutely ZERO concerns about people or planet. seems about right.

[@JohnGrigg-gz9gm]

The CCP! Lol

[@TheRaienryuu]

Let's go, more 40k lore to listen to this week!

[@beeno3487]

The content feels like it’s coming quicker. Stay healthy luiten. Don’t overwork.

[@RedKincaid]

Was just telling my friend that my favorite faction in practice is Mechanicus, but my favorite in theory is New Mecanicum, they just don't have enough lore

[@SureSShuffle]

The way the emperor sees what Cawl will become regardless of the Horus heresy is hilarious. They are just two peas in a pod.

[@M0U53B41T]

I was so excited to see this come up in my notifications! Well done, loved it very much.

[@PerfectionHunter]

GW... we need Dark Mechanicum as a playable faction ☠💀☠

[@stax6092]

I love the idea of Dark Mechanicum because the Scrap code thing reminds me of those Glitchlings I just learned about and now want to see them have those Cyber-bloodletters, Tech-Daemonettes, Electro-Horrors, and Scrap-Bearers.

[@tubewontletmepost]

The biggest thing is them getting a hold of ironmen from Bile. I can't wait for that storyline to unfold!

[@Twy87]

6:21 - The best place to start in 40k is either Gaunt's Ghosts, the Eisenhorn trilogy, or 'Fifteen Hours' by Mitchel Scanlon.

[@gabrieltriest3574]

As I sit down to paint my Mechanicus manufactory terrain piece, Luetin drops a banger. Praise the Omnissiah.

[@SuperEcho64]

Lore team, checking in. Professor's gonna teach!

[@Zotok990]

Been listening to your videos for a little over a year, and it's been interesting to see your editing potential increase. Also I'd be remiss to mention your narration ability has increased many fold. Even if the content is mostly speech the visuallys aren't neccessary but appreciated greatly. Thank you for being the first of a handful of youtube 40k content creators that have given me a new hobby.

[@Reeses72]

Without Luetin there is no sleep

[@JohnGrigg-gz9gm]

With Luetin there is no sleep! LOL 😉

[@Arikki1]

"Ah, the world is going to hell in a handbasket. Let me have a brief escape in the fictional grimtopia."

[@selore4865]

Luetin O Luetin, bit of a youtube meta question: have you considered compiling some of your older stuff into some longer videos for the sleep gang to enjoy? Cutting out some louder parts, maybe leveling the audio A touch as well? Spiffing Brit said it’s great for the algorithm and I have seen a lot of other content creators do well with compiling their videos into longer 4-8 hour sleep aids. I like listening to you both when awake and asleep, of course, but a lot of the older videos have several minutes of loud music playing at the beginning, which can be a bit rough when leaving the app on autoplay. Omnissiah’s blessings to you, sir, and shun the weakness of the flesh!

[@Pwnicus187]

Sven van der Plank's Battletech lore compilations are exactly what I want to see Luetin do!

[@JohanCardel]

Great timing, I was just re-reading Horus heresy, and are just done with Mechanicum. Somehow, Dark Mechanicum are way more scary than most Space Marine chapters to me.

[@Sereggggg]

Luetins videos have got me through some could nights while homeless, heroin withdrawals and worst. Luetin may not protect but he can light up the darkest of times

[@BrianReplies]

So crazy that I just downloaded "Mechanicum" from Audible 2 days ago and have been listening to it and then this video shows up on my feed.

[@sirreginaldfishingtonxvii6149]

Nice! Always found videos and such on the Dark Mechanicum quite lacking. Can always count on Luetin09.

[@judyfps5059]

I know I’m late , but I’m from the Leutin09 Sleep Club member checking in.

[@bluebowser3347]

When I saw Luetin had uploaded this video I genuinely got so excited!!!! Thank you Luetin!

[@talan123]

My favorite Lore/sleeping pill is back on the menu. I don't know why but I have started to listen to 40k novels since I started listening to this channel. You can credit somebody buying 15x novels from them.

[@sargonsblackgrandfather2072]

Why do I always find Luetin when I’m about to go to sleep? Every damn time

[@Prophetofthe8thLegion]

Who awakens me form my slumber-oh…it’s you. Speak then Lueton!

[@hairybadgerop5838]

You’re my favourite creator on KZbin! Consistently brilliant ❤

[@Brabantian]

6:26 I feel this is one of the most important things to tell new fans. Personally I always loved your videos for this as their complexity made for alot of interesting points to continue researching

[@Abefroman-lq3md]

Ah Sir Leutin after such a football disappointment and my tears falling free, you come along a cheer me up. Thank you sir. Hail and salutations from Belfast Northern Ireland 🇬🇧

[@r-1093]

God dam work getting in the way of Luetin! Going to leave a comment now because i know this one is going to be awesome!

[@tevzcrnic4456]

Boy I hit jackpot today. Just heading to sleep and then this baby drops.

[@isaacatkinson1882]

Luetin just watched England bottle it again. You my friend have probably done the best thing for me. A vid about the dark mechanicum to ease my sorrows...Southgate out.

[@tuomashanninen184]

Luetin got me into Warhammer 40k!!

[@Erebusdidnothingwrongish]

Self-flagellation today. On my way to work. I needed this. Thank you kind Soul 🤣

[@geraltgrey-mane695]

ooooooh nice :) Love anything with the Mechanicum or Mechanicus

[@secundus22]

I KNOW NOTHING ABOUT THE DARK MECHANICUM THIS IS GONNA BE AN EXCITING NIGHT

[@icallshotgun4895]

I have always loved the dark mechanicum as a faction, find them really interesting. I made a custom space marines chapter who have a divided alliance with both Terra and the mechanics and as such view the dark mechanicum as their sworn enemies

[@dlo009]

Thanks Luetin for another great vid.

[@Xadifa]

Thank you luetin. I suffer from insomnia so your videos really help me to rest better at nights.

[@ObiWanCanel0ni]

Coming home and seeing a new luetin lore video 👀 Praise the Omnissiah! I'm gonna sleep well tonight

[@devinmelvig8732]

Listening to this while i play rogue trader again after the large update and changes. 😊

[@IvanaMe-m2s]

I have absolutely zero interest in 40k as a lore, a game, a book, or story. I don’t care and probably never will. However, your particular take on explanation of the above is very well crafted and fascinating. I don’t care about the premise but it’s obvious you do and I love that for you! I really love listening to your detailed explanations of the bs and all else in between. I appreciate you! Yes, I have used your lovely voice to fall asleep many a time. It helps having zero interest in the subject lol.

[@joshuakirkham9593]

The Dark Mechanicum sound like the mere extension of the Adeptus Mechanicus into other forms of knowledge. I can see why knowledge becomes suspect when the Dark Mechanicum exist.

[@toxictroll7843]

Would the dark mechanicum buy Monero instead of Bitcoin? Asking for a friend.

[@nicfit23]

Doge

[@AUTISTIC_LEGAL_SYSTEM]

Need some Dark Mechanicum vs Tyranid scenario.

[@JohnGrigg-gz9gm]

Tyranids are a biological reflection of the Dark Mechanicum...

[@adamkevill6557]

A most welcome bolstering of knowledge. The Loremaster returns!

[@gregshimmin5334]

I feel you did this one just for Winters. Bless you

[@Luetin09]

lmao, the only comment THE ONLY COMMENT to this effect and its not entirely untrue lol😅

[@Highlightedpet]

I always loved the idea of dark mech. Viruses that corrupt, metal than blend to flesh, not afraid to use xenos tech and opposed to the emperium, create new tech. Probobly part of the creation of chaos marines aswell. Do they make titans aswell? I remember some ghaunts ghost book, there is this huge machine that attacks the hive city.

[@JohnGrigg-gz9gm]

That is a good question... Do the Dark Mechanicus create actual Chaos Marines? Do they have the knowledge? And would Abaddon tolerate such a thing?

[@RawbDawggin]

*excited maniacal laughter of mad scientists intensifies*

[@sohrabroozbahani4700]

I always imagined a 4X game when you land into a sector as an ark mechanicum ship and have to make your home there, survive and thrive and follow any path you desire, then i imagined, what would be the endgame crisis to it, an Ork wag, a Tyranids invasion, an imperial crusade, or... perhaps the worst case scenario, to look into the black mirror of fate in between the stars and find yourself, only with an extra malevolent grin, placed on a portion of your face it just doesn't belong to... dark mechanicum is truly a terrifying enemy to face.

[@KarbhonBlaC]

Seriously great content, been aching to learn about these guys.

[@justarandomname420]

Engagement for the Dark Algorithm.

[@yopops6632]

There he is yet again never disappointing us with outstanding lore. We answer your call and we are here to listen Lore Master

[@daluigi1]

Mechanicus are my favorite faction in their designs

[@incurableromantic4006]

The sheer quality of this channel never fails to amaze me.

[@shrektheeloquentork1924]

That music @ 5:54 is soooo... exquisite. I understand Noise Marines now

[@_walruseater]

New Luetin video day is the best day. Thanks for everything you do, bro!

[@zedley1000]

Ahhh a Luetin lullaby for standby time. By the Omnisire are we blessed.

[@MutualMischief]

Excellent, the kind of video that keeps me coming back every time.

[@Nachtwandel]

Nice timing man

[@nickvincent9645]

Thank you for the hard work luetin. It is always top notch!

[@cantorofleng7837]

Luetin chore club represent. FOR THE EMPEROR.

[@dirtydeeds4free553]

Sub one hour lutin video?!? Wtf, how can i fall asleep to this?!?!

[@abarairenji123]

This basically sounds similar to a fight between Open Source and proprietary software.

[@viperblitz11]

I like how for the most part, the Dark Mechanicum is basically just the Ad Mech with a few proper nouns switched around.

[@inthefade]

Surely one of the coolest factions in 40K.

[@Falpastymonster]

I was with the sleep club last night and now...round two! Awake this time 😂

[@Habdabi]

Luetin back at his best, really hitting a stride lately, awesome 👐

[@monkofbob]

“Heretek” James Workshop is so clever, who would have possibly thought of that?