The Dunlendings - Villains or Victims?

[@neildaly2635]

The ones portrayed in Peter Jackson’s film were enticed to attack by Saruman’s promise of dental insurance.

[@istari0]

🤣

[@DarthGandalfYT]

Turns out "scratching a living off rocks" meant consuming them. Crunch crunch.

[@backwashjoe7864]

"Lisa needs braces!"

[@Saymyfavoritemeal]

​@@backwashjoe7864"Dental plan!"

[@randomnesswithgabes147]

‘The Dunlendings: Playing Middle Earth on Hard Mode’

[@bigthoughts2644]

And ened waith is very hard

[@apstrike]

What Tolkien left out is the elves views of the Dunlendings. It totally looks like Gil-Galad saw Aldarion as a strong ally against Sauron and was prepared to overlook habitat destruction and ethnic cleansing in exchange for security for his realm to the north.

[@specialnewb9821]

Erendis did nothing wrong!

[@mingthan7028]

Numenorean imperialism is more or less like the British.

[@goshlike76]

Now that's what I call an interesting topic. I always thought of them as miserable pawns that were expelled from their lands and used by Saruman as revenge tools. Although in different periods they played different roles. They are not entirely innocent and they stirred the pot many times. Freca had it coming.

[@DarthGandalfYT]

To be fair, they were likely miserable at many points, and were definitely pawns, so you're not wrong in that regard.

[@maglor8157]

No Freca & Wulf are great

[@maglor8157]

That’s just my personal dunland(and Enedwaith)-loving opinion though

[@filsdelleche6592]

Hammerhand definitely needed to take a vacation or something. Killing Freca was probably not the best idea.

[@JoeyvanLeeuwen]

freca is that the one who made that awful biryani

[@morgant.dulaman8733]

What I find fascinating is what the Dunlandings didn't do: reclaim their land, specifically southern Arnor after the Witch King had destroyed Cardolan and Arnor as a whole. Perhaps they were scared of the Wights, but I'd have expected them to at least try colonizing parts of Cardolan not situated near the Barrow Downs, as well as southern regions in Arthedain and Rhudaur, perhaps trying to settle the lands south and west of Bree. As the Hobbits had only migrated a few generations before the fall of Fornost, I imagine some would have at least known of their old neighbors from Dunland, and could have used this to create better relations.

[@MRdaBakkle]

I think it is possible that the men in Bree have some relation to the men in Dunland as well. I suppose that was more centuries ago so when the Edenwaith was deforested and they crossed the Isen into whaat would later be Rohan they lived there for another number of centuries before being pushed out again, and the memory of men is short. So they were more focused on their most recent homeland.

[@istari0]

They did also suffer from the Great Plague, just not as much as other peoples. There may have been plenty of room at that time in the land they already occupied.

[@TheKarotechia]

Maybe they did. Tharbad was settled until the great flood of 2912.

[@anti-liberalismo]

The Dunlendings did not try to reclaim such places but their kinsfolk lived in peace from Eryn Vorn to the mouths of Isen, there was definitely more land for them but Calenardhon might have been far more fertile

[@nathan_408]

@@MRdaBakkle possible? men in Bree are from dunlanding origin...

[@Sockenmodulator]

The conflict between the Rohirrim and the Dunlendings is reminiscent of the British land grab by the Anglo-Saxons, who pushed the indigenous Celtic population to the fringes. The conflict between the Numenorians and the ancestors of the Dunlendings, on the other hand, can be seen as an example of the negative effects of colonialism and imperialism. In a more or less similar way, this may have happened in Harad, for example, except that the indigenous population there was also partly subjugated or enslaved.

[@istari0]

I would say in Harad that they were at least mostly subjugated by Sauron although the Númenóreans were involved in the coastal regions around Umbar.

[@Sockenmodulator]

@@istari0 True, but Numenor probably controlled most of the coastal regions. It is implied that there were also colonies, or at least harbors and fortresses, south of Umbar and on the coasts of Rhun.

[@istari0]

@@Sockenmodulator I'm sure they did have colonies farther south but I don't recall coming across anything suggesting the Númenóreans established anything permanent on the far east coast of Middle-Earth although they likely explored there.

[@squaeman_2644]

I'm fairly sure the Numenorean establish colonies in the far east to gain tributes. The Numenorean were more powerful in arms than Sauron in the second age, I can imagine they took rulership over those lands after Sauron left.

[@OskarVanBruce]

Consider the following: Tolkien wrote his legendarium pretending to having access to ancient writings and documents about Middle Earth, these documentation is obviously written by Dunedain and Elves so there is a case for doubting the veracity of the information they provide about the Dumlings, specially when we already know how racist and supremacist the Dunedain were about the native peoples of Middle Earth, even amongst the faithful.

[@aaronrowell6943]

Whenever someone says that the Lord of the Rings idealizes imperialism and Tolkien is a racist I always think of stuff like this and I'm like yeah you clearly did not read the same story I did. The good guys make several terrible mistakes and some people fight on the side of evil because of them more so than any loyalty to actual evil

[@DarthGandalfYT]

“I know nothing about British or American imperialism in the Far East that does not fill me with regret and disgust.” (Letter 100 - May 1945). He was definitely not fond of western imperialism.

[@aaronrowell6943]

@@DarthGandalfYT While it doesn't erase all the sins of the fathers at least Aragorn tries to make up for things as king.

[@michaelodonnell824]

@@DarthGandalfYT Yet in his treatment of the Dunlendings, he completely JUSTIFIED British Colonial Imperialism!

[@squaeman_2644]

Yeah I think the connotation with the Numenorean settling in the south and far east to gain tribute is probably in reference to imperialism...

[@aurelian2668]

@@michaelodonnell824 what? What treatment? Didnt know Tolkien was in middle earth 😲

[@skatemetrix]

And people say Tolkien never had shades of grey or moral ambiguity in his works!

[@DarthGandalfYT]

Anyone who says that has clearly not read the Silmarillion.

[@SalmanKhan-mo4bx]

I actually used to believed that too, and than I so how they force those into the GOT series

[@glennsnapp290]

@@SalmanKhan-mo4bx “Those”?

[@boarfaceswinejaw4516]

i think the problem comes up when the good guys have not_god and his not_angels on their side, whilst the dunlendings get their teeth kicked in for the rest of time.

[@littlefoot5013]

Who says that it's Tolkien's fault that even his "good guys" don't have moral flaws? Like in Rogue One in Star Wars when Saw Guerra and Cassian Andor were willing to do some underhanded or questionable things on behalf of the Alliance in fighting the Empire.

[@kekero540]

Too be completely fair Saruman is said to have the ability of magical influence. Your honor I argue that dunland was a victim of magical persuasion. And Saruman might be able to dissuade their fears by saying these orcs are different, disciplined and intelligent.

[@waltonsmith7210]

I think of the Dunlendings as a "celtic" kind of people, like the welsh or Irish or Picts. People the Saxons wouldve warred with. I dont think the Rohan Dunland conflict is a case of good vs evil, but the kind of conflict that arises in the normal course of human affairs especially after the Dominion of Men. Heres a question I wonder: if the Rohirrim are based on Anglo Saxons, where are all the slaves? 10 to 20 percent of anglo saxon society was enslaved.

[@DarthGandalfYT]

They're inspired by the Anglo-Saxons, much as the Dunlendings were likely inspired by the Celts. But neither are a direct one-to-one because the Rohirrim did not have slaves.

[@bigthoughts2644]

That shouldn’t be the case Rohan is inspired by the Central Europeans. The saxons would have had very few cavalry. If anything they would be more akin to the Scythians who are famous for their cavalry and the selling of their horses to other civilizations

[@waltonsmith7210]

@@DarthGandalfYT Do we know that? These are the same people that hunted the Druedain for sport. Then again, we only explicitely hear about slavery being practiced by Sauron and Saruman and the Easterlings. It makes me wonder, though. Tolkien didnt tell us absolutely everything about the Northmen and their culture. wonder if thrall taking was ever practiced in Rhovanion.

[@DarthGandalfYT]

The Rohirrim weren't the only ones to treat the Druedain poorly. It's said in Tal-Elmar (Tolkien's more obscure tale) that the Pre-Numenoreans also hunted and drove them from their original homes. So poor treatment of the Druedain was definitely not exclusive to the Rohirrim.

[@NordicJarl27]

@@DarthGandalfYT someone told me dunlendings were more closely inspired by the norse or Vikings. Something like that. Viking like.

[@chriscooper654]

Even when I first read the trilogy, I was struck by Tolkien's nuanced references to the Dunlendings and their sad history with Gondor and the Rohirrim. They definitely seem a people who just can't get a break, leaving them vulnerable to Saruman's exploitation.

[@kylenetherwood8734]

They thought the Rohirrim were evil but changed their minds after being showed mercy in Helms Deep. Do not underestimate the voice of Saruman.

[@mikealexander1935]

There is a 1600 year gap between the defeat of Sauron and the Plague. During this time the Dunlendings appeared to have been pretty much left alone in Enedwaith. After the Great Plague they began to move into Calenardon. This event is analogous to the successive waves of barbarian incursions into the Roman Empire beginning with the Antoine Plague. Gondor was in dire straits in 2510, but the fate of Rome was averted by the timely arrival of the Rohirrim, who drove out the Dunlender "barbarians", placing a friendly vassal on Gondor's Northern border. From Gondor's perspective, the Dunlendings were invaders of Gondorian land, and they had every right to grant Calenardon as a fief to Eorl. From the Dunlender perspective, Calenardon was theirs because Gondor did not drive them out by force and there was room for all. But one cannot argue that Dunland *had* to expand eastwards. Enedwaith was also largely empty after the Plague. The Dunlenders never bothered to claim Tharbad, letting it fall into ruin. They also let commerce with the Northlands (Breeland, the Shire, Lindon, Blue Mts) dry up. It's more likely the beef the Dunlendings and Rohirrim had with each other was cultural. The Dunlendings were people of the dark (pagan), while the Rohirrim were "men of the west" (Christian) and that was enough for enmity. The same is true of Easterlins and Haradrim.

[@ellanenish5999]

Dunlendings are basicly new players to a Grand Strategy game

[@mac2894]

The artist who did a lot of work for the 1980s-90s role playing game called MERP (Middle Earth Role Playing) pretty much portrayed them as Scots.

[@danepatterson8107]

Excellent content. I never knew much about them other than the origin of the feud with Rohan.

[@oliveremmettknox7776]

If King Helm Hammerhead approved Wulf's request to marry his daughter, how would that impact Rohan's relationship with the Dunlendings?

[@aurelian2668]

It would have made it better. We don't know the full character of Wulf, and we know Freca wasn't that keen on listening to Helm, but at least Freca never insulted Helm directly except when Helm insulted him about his fatness and calling him a corrupt man and that he had dunlending blood. For me Freca never really intended to sieze the kingdom of rohan, not only does Helm have two sons he also has a nephew already. I think helm really fucked up with killing freca.

[@noahtylerpritchett2682]

The Dunlendings remind me of Gallic Celts, Gaelic Celts, Celtiberians and Brythonic Celts. The Numenoreans being Rome screwing them over. And it doesn't take a uneducated guess who the Eolingas are.

[@jessesturgeon5327]

I think their situation could have improved in the Fourth Age. I'm not sure if Eomer occupied Dunland in the Fourth Age. Whether or not, I think they could have been part of the founding populations of the new colonies in Enedwaith and Arnor. Who knows, eventually they might have even migrated into Eregion once Khazad-dum was reestablished.

[@Tollcross406]

Like the use of the looter loading page from MB2 Bannerlord. Great video. Very interesting.

[@joshmorton7283]

I always found it interesting during the scenes when they are being spared after helms-deep and orthanc there seen to be just normal people not just evil monsters like orcs

[@awtqrtrkjsrs]

It's similar to how, after the end of the war of the ring, Aragorn forgave the Easterlings and Haradrim, letting them keep their lands and establishing diplomatic ties, since they were ultimately also human and thus redeemable, and many were likely not evil but were forced into fighting for Sauron.

[@waltonsmith7210]

@Hydra Dominatus Yeah but burning and ravaging would be a much more acceptable form of warfare in a medieval-like world.

[@kongspeaks4778]

@Hydra Dominatus I'm sure Gondorian soldiers were very gentle with the Haradrim when they conquered Near Harad

[@specialnewb9821]

@Hydra Dominatus Rember how the Wainriders had their families with them? Remember how Gondor obliterated them?

[@muenchhausenmusic]

Is there a tourism bureau or something like that where I can turn to to plan a trip to Funland? That slogan really sticks, and now my wife and kids are excited to go!

[@DarthGandalfYT]

There was, but it got burned down.

[@henriquecamboim]

8:34 that`s why Saruman could nurse vengeful sentiments in them towards Gondor and Rohan... Much like some real life leaders these days... But lets not get into this, right? Tolkien did warn us about the presence of Saruman like people in our midst, that's for sure.

[@filsdelleche6592]

Yes, without the epic beards... very sad.

[@dtice69]

Being that Tolkien borrowed heavily from both Germanic and Celtic histories, it would make sense for the Dunlendings to be an amalgam of how the Romans would have viewed the Germans (and to a lesser extent, the Slavs) while subjugating them, and to how the English (particularly during the Norman era) viewed the Celts while they did the same.

[@waltonsmith7210]

It fits so well it cant be an accident.

[@hiroshima19]

The CC keeps calling them the dumb lendings lmao

[@DarkKing009]

Dunlendings: Unbound, Unbent, Unbroken Had everyone to avenge themselves against their aggressive neighbor.

[@jamsbassy5439]

Awesome thanks mate, that was fantastic

[@Negetive2digit]

So where were the Ents during all this tree-murdering that the Numenorians were doing? Were they off doing something else or were they banned from hurting the Numenorians because they technically serve one of the Valar? Or is this just a plothole that JR never got around to solving?

[@stevensproul1]

Great Video!! Please do a video on the Variags of Khand, Balcoth, and the Haradrim

[@celtofcanaanesurix2245]

it's interesting to me because it's clear from both their name and the situation they are in that they are a stand in for the british celts. Everything from a great empire who is technically related to them calling them barbaric and taking their land and recourses as well as slaves, to a germanic (or germanic stand in) people coming into their land, through a grant do to military aid which sparks centuries of war and conquest between the peoples. Not to mention Dunlending sounds a lot like like it means "people of the dun-land" in which dun is a common celtic word for a hill fort, which there were many of scattered across the pre-roman, and post-roman british land scape.

[@oscarernstell6214]

I don't believe Lond Daer and Tharbad, the great road, even Moria and Eregion, would have worked, initially, without friendly coexistence with the people of Minhiriath and especially of Dunland. The Dunland history is simply untold but I would have assumed it would be complicated. Selling food and timber to Moria, only to have the hinterlands stolen by Celebrimbor, then the Numenoreans infringe on their lowlands, and finally Rohan pushes in from the east. They have much to offer, two sites fir great harbours, woodlands, farmlands, roads between great places, yet constantly are pushed aside rather than treated as partners. In Dunland, Tolkien created the 2nd Wales, not the Wales of the Sindar he admired, but the Wales as percieved by the anhlosaxon, as brutes, thieving, conquered and looked down upon. Dunland allows the sindar and rohirrim to join forces because Dunland takes that part of the welsh experience and carries it instead of the elves while the elves need not hate the rohirrim but has their experience of the english given by Morgoth.

[@jonystyles9473]

another excelent video bro, wonderfull misterys uncovered, always felt the same way about them... descendent from the Edain... you should do a video on the middle men of second and third age bro keep up the work, love it

[@joshuaweinbender6075]

Do you think that they may have been deceived by Saruman and Sauron war tends to make people do desperate things and how were they after the war of the ring

[@SamParrottNZ]

I came into this video arguing no evil is inherent evil. But as usual It so much more nuanced! incredibly well thought out video

[@chrisherre7107]

Dunland is funland might be your best quote ever

[@extremestuff61]

Nice to see some Lord of the Rings lore content from an Aussie. Keep up the good work mate!

[@sonofthemoleman]

I love your videos, you have an analytical and neutral point of view; this is refreshing regarding the world of Middle Earth.

[@paolomesterom6899]

Another great video!

[@xaviermontesdeoca2440]

amazing video dude

[@anti-liberalismo]

And there was one crime which they helped: the torches on the Westfold

[@istari0]

So, how much did the Dunland tourism bureau pay you for the promo? 😁 It's easy to lump the Dunlendings in with the Easterlings and the Haradwaith but their actual history is more complicated. Sometimes they were free to handle their own affairs and sometimes they were ruled by others. Their lands often ended up being the place where greater powers fought their wars. At least it sounds like the 4th Age got off to a better start for them than the previous ages.

[@DarthGandalfYT]

They sent me a goat, but turns out it was just two Dunlendings in a trenchcoat.

[@hannotn]

The Dunlendings were Finland of WWII, allying with Nazi Germany against the USSR. Not because they were Nazis, but because their very survival as a nation made it necessary. Does being allied to those with dodgy motives undermine your ethics? Sure does. But I think you're also a week bit dismissive of how poverty and oppression, especially many, many generations of it, can warp people's conception, or prioritisation, of right and wrong. I think another aspect is interesting in this and that's Tolkien's apparent susceptibility to the Halo Effect. Throughout his writing (and this is a generalisation) there's a sense that good looking = good. The morally worthy, especially the nobility, are usually beautiful, while those who fall short of that tend to have been on the end of a sound beating with ugly stick.

[@waynemcauliffe2362]

Celts. My favs. Victims fore sure. Cheers mate.

[@paavohirn3728]

This was fascinating indeed! May I ask what were your sources? History of Middle Earth?

[@DarthGandalfYT]

No HoMe for this one. Mostly Unfinished Tales and the Appendices.

[@paavohirn3728]

@@DarthGandalfYT ah cool! Thanks!

[@michaelsavage7884]

What makes me curious is the Dunlandings interactions with the Orcs? What made them get along so well and fight alongside one another?

[@michaelsavage7884]

@Hydra Dominatus lol

[@ThomasstevenSlater]

They've hated the Rohirrim for far longer then they have hated orcs (which tend to mostly go away for centuries at time). I'm thinking Saruman's hijacking of Dunland took decades of steps of that seemed perfectly reasonable at the time by the time he was obviously evil he'd restructured the entire society to be dependent on him and had a lot of hostages and made planning the mass uprising that would be needed to kick his forces out almost impossible. Also the power of Sarumans voice, used regularly for decades.

[@istari0]

I don't think they got along so well as they were slowly manipulated into it over time and that their leadership became corrupted by Saruman.

[@aurelian2668]

@@ThomasstevenSlater No they hated the orcs first, then the Rohirrim the orcs preceeds the rohirrim. You should read up again, it says they dont have love for orcs and that this relationship was for each other to get what they want. Not because they liked each other.

[@stefanovitali2925]

Saruman scoured the Shire in a matter of months, he had decades to work an already susceptible Dunland population. They believed the Rohirrim would've burned them alive and eaten them after taking them prisoners at Helm's Deep

[@christopherscott6386]

They're not on anyone's side because no one is all together on their side

[@thorshammer7883]

In a world where sin thrives and unlawful unrighteous deeds,behavior, and ambitions go without rebuke evil can take place and grow within the hearts of all nations and their people and the leaders who set the policy and enforce it.

[@MerryMohProductions]

@Darth Gandalf y’know their history sounds somewhat similar to that of the Haradrim, especially in your conclusion bit.

[@skjold224]

About Gwaithurim. I cant find the word anywhere in Tolkiens writings. I searched through The Hobbit, LotR, Silmarillion, HoME (1-12), Unfinished Tales, Nature of Middle earth and the Letters of Tolkien, The Children of Hurin,, Fall of Gondolin AND Beren and Lúthien (easy when having all digitally) . Where is it mentioned? Help!

[@sayagarapan1686]

Totally worth second watch two months out. You seem remarkably sensitive and astute, even compassionate towards the moral dualities in discerning who is actually being wronged and at what point. (**cough ** For a thug **cough**). You and Bilbo have that in common. There's more to you than meets the Great Eye... and it makes for spectacular content.

[@mightymulatto3000]

These people were the biggest mystery to me.

[@joshthomas-moore2656]

If we use we use DnD alingment system for the Dunlendings i think a "neutral evil" role is best suited for them. A neutral evil character has no compunctions about harming others to get what they want, but neither will they go out of their way to cause carnage or mayhem when they see no direct benefit for themselves.

[@MRdaBakkle]

For sure when they act under the command of a dark lord, but if they are just existing and end up opposed to Numernor or Rohan, then I would place them as True Neutral or even Lawful Neutral as they clearly have some order and laws that they respect that puts them at odds. Most of the mannish cultures are actually probably neutral, with Elves being the only Good cultures even if they have done acts of lower case evil they never were Evil and in service to the Dark Lord.

[@MRdaBakkle]

@Hydra Dominatus yes and that is acting under the command of a dark lord. Most other cases were Sauron or Sauruman are not involved it's two different groups fighting a brutal war, but one side was pushed out of their lands, saw their homeland deforested and were viewed as lesser. The colonized have a right to fight back.

[@MRdaBakkle]

@Hydra Dominatus did you read what I said? I said they are true neutral especially when they are not directly serving a dark lord. And no actually the Dunlendings are not lesser. They are men just like the men of the west. I don't need a bunch of psudo science race bullshit in my Tolkien. The only reason why the men of the west are seen as "superior" is because of their alliance with Elves. The Dunlendings having never entered Beleriand didn't really have a chance to ally with Elves. No real connection to genetics it's just a gift from magical demi gods or angels. All mannish cultures in Middle-Earth are true neutral having moments of goodness and evilness within them. Shadow can turn one to evil but they are not evil.

[@MRdaBakkle]

@Hydra Dominatus they are not. No more evil as any other mannish group in the lore. You are wrong and you didn't watch the video.

[@MRdaBakkle]

@Hydra Dominatus The Dunlebdings are of the same stock of Edain who initially opposed Morgoth when men first awoke in the east. The Numernorians assumed they were men of darkness, but they were not. Like I said before the Numernorians and the Elves do great evil nearly as bad as anything the Dunlendings do. The Elves hunted Dwarves for sport and viewed them as animals. The Noldor killed their fellow Elves when they wished to return to ME. The Druedain who were Edain and like men were possibly related to some dunlendings at least from a start were hunted by Gondor ad Rohan. The Druidain helped the Men of Rohan to arrive in time at the battle of Pelennor. The men of Edenwaith likley scattered when their forests were cut down some going east to Dunland and some going north perhaps to even join with men already living in the north like the Breelanders. The point of Tolkien is there is good and evil in all men and we can overcome that evil. No one is inherently evil. Middle-Earth is a fallen world much like our own world according to Christian theology,

[@Generalphoenix8438]

Ive decided to use them for a custom campaign on the BFME 2 im doing for my channel. They would be invaded my legions of wild goblins and playing isengard. I must defeat the goblins and earn their allegiance. Ive got a list of the levels and enemies i will face.

[@LeftyScaevola]

As usual for any group of humans, tribe size or larger, both.

[@maglor8157]

Dunlanding history in one sentence: Then things got worse.

[@marieroberts5458]

I used to be a regular patron at Lord of the Rings Plaza and I once DID think about it...I created a story series, 2 or 3 shorts tales about what happened...if anyone is interested, I can dig them up...

[@MRdaBakkle]

The Dunlendings were no more evil than the Numernorians. And I would say less evil actually. You have to believe that Gondor had a legal right to give land that the Dunlendings lived on for centuries to the Rhorirrm. So in nearly all cases the Rhorirrm were far more the aggressors. I would say even fighting alongside Orcs against the Rhorirrm is justifiable, and the only real crime is the tryanny of the Hobbits a people who had never harmed them. In that light they became the very colonizers that they hated.

[@CinnamonKnightEntertainment]

So the vid is a year old so I doubt most people will see this, but I feel some other things need to be said. Firstly, they were an oppressed people a majority of the time they are being mentioned in the histories. Now Tolkien was a believer in objective good and evil, so he would probably state that the weakness of the dunlandings was being willing to side with evil any chance it gave them a one up against their enemies.... who they never had a chance to actually defeat without dark lord, dark pirate, or dark wizard help. That being said, saruman was very convincing guy, like magical voice.... and orcs tales of orc talk about them being evil, but did they raid dunlanding homes? Not sure it talks about it in histories, heck the dunlandings were once falsly considered "servants of the dark ones" until they joined the "dark army" to fight the colonial oppressors they faced. Who writes the histories anyway? The always "good guy" gondorians? The riders? Please. But that's more of a take from a subjective opinion. They seem like a fine people, but Tolkien wanted more about heros and villains, and with his views anyone not a hero was a villain, on purpose or on accident.

[@lordforages8319]

There's quote I remember When the oppressed become the oppressors

[@mateuszslawinski1990]

They were both victims and villains. Too small and insignificant to be meaningful in slightly greater scheme, held grievances towards both Gondor and Rohan. This caused them to take well-known choices - which were wrong, bot from moral and political point of view.

[@moistmike4150]

The fate of the Dunlendings is sort of an analog for the fate of the indigenous peoples of the Americas - Yeah, they "lost the struggle" as it were against the European/American expansion into their lands, but they were definitely not the fictional "Noble Savage" as portrayed in some modern literature an myth. As a teenager I was quite interested in tales of the American frontier. At one point I remember reading a book of short histories of the Indian Wars. One story in particular I wish I'd never read was about an American Army officer who was captured sometime in the early 1800's by an Iroquois war party. His own small band of soldiers had been killed during an ambush and he was the only survivor. The story was related by a French trapper who was friendly to the Iroquois in that area, but had no love for the Americans or British. Long story short, the Iroquois braves decided to burn the American alive. When the trapper told the officer that his fate was to be burned, he stated that he "would attempt to bear it bravely", but the trapper told him that it would be nowhere near a quick death, as the Iroquois truly enjoyed the spectacle of burning their captives slowly on a bed of coals where they would tie a man's hands behind his back and then rope him by his neck to a pole, but leave his feet and legs free. Then they'd watch him dance as he'd slowly roast to death over coals with just enough rope to allow him to put part of his body out of the intense heat, but not all of it. This led to a man "favoring" various parts of his body as the rest of him roasted in various places until the thousands of twists and turns to obtain some relief had finally caused every part of the man's surface to become charred, with the exception of his face and head; at which point the Iroquois would shove him to the ground and heap hot coals on his head to finish the deed. The "fun" was to see how long they could keep a man alive during this ordeal. The trapper related that it took this particular officer a day and a half to finally expire. I still have trouble grasping this level of evil. The knowledge that the native peoples of the Americas had been dealing out this sort of treatment to their rivals long before Europeans appeared on the scene has since destroyed any naive ideas of the "Noble Indigenous Peoples" B.S. you might hear from supremely ignorant people in our modern era.

[@ricardotolbert1797]

I mean it’s there culture…you act like the Germanic tribes or Saxons were good people. Vikings, the Scottish tribes. All were brutal. Can’t put the blame on them.

[@moistmike4150]

@@ricardotolbert1797 All cultures have had their share of brutal acts against "the Other", but only Christian culture has been a mollifying force against this age-old human tendency. Christianity itself has been used to justify a lot of horror as well, but it's quite apparent that those who perpetrated such acts in the name of Christ were blaspheming God with their heinous behavior. Any culture in the absence of the Christian ethos to "love your enemies" were free to do whatever a twisted mind could imagine.

[@ricardotolbert1797]

@@moistmike4150 yeah the Romans sought to still subjugate but in a different form which was Christianity. Using God as weapon smh

[@moistmike4150]

@@ricardotolbert1797 The Roman Empire didn't adopt Christianity as a cultural and national religion until they were well into decline. Therefore, I don't understand the point you're attempting to make, as it really has zero basis in historical reality.

[@AJ0223]

Beautifully said. I'm reading several books on ritual human sacrifice across the planet. Sobering stuff. Wild how all these cultures all over space and time with no knowledge or connection to each other all end up sacrificing humans to demons absent of Christ

[@sayagarapan1686]

Yeah, what you said. Precisely so. Victims, but their responses were unjustifiable. They, like all the other Edain of pre-Numenorean stock had a great capacity for greater nobility and wiser choices, even after being terribly wronged. But Saruman's voice probably tipped them over the edge. I think that was an exculpatory consideration in their favor, but yeah.

[@waltonsmith7210]

They just act like nornal humans in the real world. Good or evil? Its complicated lol.

[@squaeman_2644]

@@waltonsmith7210 yeah it's hard to say there are any "good or evil" humans, but there's definitely good and evil...

[@jorgepascualfuentecilla3746]

both

[@waynemcauliffe-fv5yf]

With the felling of trees it sounds like my Irish ancestors troubles with the English

[@supernautacus]

BOTH!

[@concept5631]

5:40

[@bobmcbob9856]

The history of Dunland sounds like the history of the Balkans

[@noahtylerpritchett2682]

The Dunlendings weren't one people or culture. They had diverse tribes and subcultures.

[@elliotkane4443]

Sounds a lot like a lawyer for a cannibal serial killer talking about how his father got drunk on friday nights and smacked him.

[@libertyprime2013]

You can be both.

[@namishusband818]

#DunlandisFunland.

[@SalmanKhan-mo4bx]

All good as long as the Dunlendings weren't the same as warhammer's Norscans in Tarriff's videos: kzbin.info/www/bejne/hanSipaLqMmsipY

[@isaiahwolftail867]

Do you still play LOTRO

[@DarthGandalfYT]

When they release new updates. I stopped raiding/PvPing almost ten years ago now.

[@mingthan7028]

'' Celts ''

[@akaroth7542]

Subbed

[@manuelgarcia-ve5vm]

all villains are victims of their own hubris

[@lanesmith1465]

Why can't they be both?

[@DarthGandalfYT]

They can be both, and I think that was my conclusion.

[@doominator4072]

Unpopular belief but Saruman wasn’t evil! He just was a voice for the down trodden and misplaced. You could also argue that he only made the Uruk-hai ( which weren’t orcs, so I believe had a high IQ and reasoning) but Saruman only made them as a means to a end. So I wholeheartedly believe that Saruman is the hero that middle earth needed and didn’t want. Again this is a unpopular opinion.

[@Marcusjnmc]

he was spiteful when he lost

[@MRdaBakkle]

Sauruaman only wished to use the Dunlendings to his goal of domination. He wished to supplant Sauron as a Dark Lord. He had a contempt for men and especially a contempt for Hobbits. He enslaved the Hobbits after his downfall at Orthanc. There is an interesting fan fiction out there called The Last Ringbearer by a Russian author that posits LOTR is a story written by the victors, and it an interesting idea. I haven't read it in full so I don't know if it actually addresses the Hobbit's enslavement under Sauraman.

[@squaeman_2644]

Sauruman was definitely evil, his end of defeatinf Sauron may have never changed but his means did. He was willing to use the one ring, he was willing to enslave and dominate in order to achieve control. Saruman only counted on Power, Rule Authority, but never Wisdom, even though he was supposed to be the wisest...

[@deathstroke2697]

The mountain clans from the Vale of Arryn are a rip off

[@conlangknow8787]

Saruman: What if dunlendings were called 𝓯𝓻𝓮𝓪𝓴lendings and instead of fighting with rohirrim they bred with orcs 👅👅👅

[@kongspeaks4778]

No offense but why do you say that the Dunlendings 'believed' they had faced injustices? You wouldn't say the native Americans 'believed' their lands had been stolen and their culture marginalized, would you

[@squaeman_2644]

Because that's what they believed? Why nitpick? We're reading something from the view of multiple people's and cultures, not just one....

[@kongspeaks4778]

@@squaeman_2644 there's no valid "different point of view" when it comes to colonization. Either you were colonized or you weren't. The Dunlendings had literally had their lands taken by a technologically advanced foreign power, which went on to establish new realms there. Ergo colonized

[@squaeman_2644]

@@kongspeaks4778 but there are the points of the view of the colonizers and colonized. The beauty of subjectivity

[@lilzin7779]

dunlendings are how Tolkien viewed the many people who were conquered by the British Empire:poor,primitive and misguided people who were fighting the 'good guys'(The British).Tolkien is English after all,the same people who invaded and oppressed the natives wherever they went,which he drew parallels with the Numenoreans. Except,he also makes such claims as the Numenoreans(his version of the British) being the greatest the race of man has ever been.It's honestly sad how many just ignores that the invaded has lost so much and aren't just fighting the 'good' guys becuz they are bad.Very 1-sided!

[@horatiussonofrome812]

He also has the numenoreans turning to evil and colonialism, and describes how they unfairly saw people related to the Dunlendings as serving Sauron. So it's more complicated than that

[@istari0]

You haven't understood everything you read. The Númenóreans ended up corrupted and turned to evil and the result was their civilization was destroyed because of it. One of the principal events that dominated almost the entire 2nd Age was the Rise and Fall of Númenór and Tolkien specifically pointed out why Númenór fell. He was no fan of British colonialism and it is reflected in his writings on Númenór.

[@horatiussonofrome812]

@@istari0 exactly

[@kongspeaks4778]

@@istari0 the Numenoreans had been building colonies in Middle Earth long before they fell to Melkor-worship. Tolkien seems to suggest that the problem is BAD colonialism, rather than colonialism itself.

[@istari0]

@@kongspeaks4778 The Númenóreans first came as friends, teachers, and allies. That later turned to conquest and tyranny and that did happen well before Sauron was brought to Númenór. Sauron was well aware of how corrupted the Númenóreans were already; it made executing his plan pretty easy.

[@stoatnam450]

Why wouldn't they side with orcs over "fellow men"? Their fellow men stole their lands and oppressed them, the orcs did not.

[@michaelsmyth3935]

.....the raw end of the stick they were given from Numenor, things never improved much.

[@redheadsilver8041]

Villainous Victims.

[@VicariousReality7]

You saying Universe doesnt mean anything.

[@michaelodonnell824]

The Dunlendings are akin to the Indigenous peoples abused and exploited by Imperial Colonisers. Tolkien was a British Imperialist so, he ALWAYS saw the various Indigenous peoples of the Empire as "Savage" and "Barbaric". Take South Asia as an example. Burmese, Indians, Thais, etc had had complex civilizations for centuries and Millenia. Along came the British with their guns and their cannons and their insatiable greed for other people's wealth and resources. Can you wonder when large numbers of South Asians supported the Japanese in World War 2? If the South Asians had slaughtered as many British as the numbers of South Asians slaughtered by the Empire, not a single Briton would be able to survive a visit to South Asia for a Millennium. The Dunlendings were repeatedly exploited by the Numenorians both before and after the destruction of Numenor. What gave Elendil and Isildur the right to establish kingdoms in Middle Earth? What gave them the Right to Rule over Middle Earth? Weaponry and Power? How,in that way were they any different to Sauron and his allies?! And what gave Gondor the right to give the Dunlending's home lands to the Rohirrim? How are they any different to the actions of the Witch King in Angmar?! And imagine it was your land and home the British/Numenorians had invaded and seized. Wouldn't you do EVERYTHING you could to recover your home from the Brutal and Vicious Invader?!!!

[@MohamedRamadan-qi4hl]

You are aware that the Japanese make the British look like heroes right?

[@aurelian2668]

Tolkien is not a FUCKING IMPERIALIST! He literally hated the imperialistic ways of britain. This was the man who hated industry and liked nature alot. You think he supports slavery, exploitation of both nature and humans even if he said and very much wrote in his books how much he hated it. This man talked about trees for hours in conversations because of how much he likes them. No, tolkien is no imperialist.

[@turkeygod6665]

Tolkein hated the British empire mate. Loved England, hated the imperialism. Same reason why he personally dislikes the roman empire.

[@aurelian2668]

Stop this bs and false narrative of Tolkien being imperialist. He hated imperialism and disliked how the British Empire ruled its colonies. He literally based the result of Numenors downfall because he saw colonization as evil.

[@Goratrix66]

I had a feeling that Dunlendings had a similar history like North American Natives.

[@noahtylerpritchett2682]

The Celtic comparison makes more sense.

[@toddfeather5760]

Dunlendings are good in their own way and hopefully get to see them in RoP show

[@nole8923]

So basically Dunlendings were Palestinians.

[@EffequalsMA]

There are elements of imperialist and colonialist apology in lotr. I'm sure it's just an artifact of the time and conceptions under which it was written. The Dunlendings and the various treatment of Ghan buri Ghan's people are examples.

[@maglor8157]

Dunlanding history in one sentence: Then things got worse.