The War of the Ring - The War in the North

[@DarthGandalfYT]

I mentioned that there were issues with the Battle of Dale, and I'm going to explain it here. As said in the video, the Easterlings seem to cross the Carnen on the 14th of March. It's never explicitly said, but the line "at the same time as the great armies besieged Minas Tirith a host of the allies of Sauron that had long threatened the borders of King Brand crossed the River Carnen" seems to confirm it. Furthermore, it is explicitly said that the Battle of Dale ended on the 17th after being fought beneath Erebor for three full days - "There he had the aid of the Dwarves of Erebor; and there was a great battle at the Mountain's feet. It lasted three days, but in the end both King Brand and King Dáin Ironfoot were slain, and the Easterlings had the victory". So the Easterlings cross the Carnen on the 14th, make it to Dale as late as the next day, and then battle for three days beneath the mountain, winning on the 17th. So far so good, right? Wrong. The issue with this is that the Carnen is over 200 miles from Erebor. The Easterlings could not have crossed the Carnen on the 14th, and then reached Erebor the same or the following day. It would be physically impossible without the use motorised transport, and believe it or not, the Easterlings did not have access to motorised transport. What this means is that one of the statements has to be wrong for the Battle of Dale to make sense - either the battle didn't last for three days (or if it did, it started from the moment the Easterlings crossed the Carnen) or the Easterlings crossed at an earlier date. The problem I'm having is that Tolkien's writing seems to be pretty definitive in his description of the Battle of Dale; there doesn't seem to be any loopholes where I can explain away what I think might be a mistake. If this truly is a mistake (if only Tolkien were around to explain), it's a little out-of-character for Tolkien, who was usually pretty meticulous when it came to time and distance. Regardless of whether it was a mistake, I chose to keep it the way it was written for the sake of the video. It's the way it was presented in the lore, and that means it's the way I will present it too.

[@guille3622]

Hi! May I ask that if the battle of Dale lasted 3 days, how it wasn't more massive or larger than Pelennor field's one?

[@LeHobbitFan]

I never noticed that... it do be a bit strange :/ I suppose it could be possible that an army of Gundabad orcs came from the North and started the Battle, which was later joined by the Easterlings? Even then, crossing such distances within three days seem impossible...

[@joshthomas-moore2656]

That is an odd situation, i think i would have to go with the fighting started right after the Easterlings crossed the Carnen, as i could see the Dalemen and maybe the Dwarfs skirmishing and launching hit and run raids with the Easterlings to slowdown any invasion and maybe thats where the three days battle comes from and all of those skirmishing and raids are being put under the umbrella of the Battle of Dale.

[@DerKindershreck]

A forced march is at 4mph, so a 15 minute mile. So yes, the math doesn't add up.

[@xaviermontesdeoca2440]

Perhabs what we know as the battle of Dale began with easterlings crossing the Carnen, at least two days to retreat to Dale and on the third the dwarves join the battle to be defeated and besige

[@LeHobbitFan]

"When you think of the great Battle of the Pelennor, do not forget the battles in Dale and the valour of Durin's Folk. Think of what might have been. Dragon-fire and savage swords in Eriador, night in Rivendell. There might be no Queen in Gondor. We might now hope to return from the victory here only to ruin and ash. But that has been averted because I met Thorin Oakenshield one evening on the edge of spring in Bree. A chance-meeting, as we say in Middle-earth." This quote by Gandalf in the Appendices got my imagination fired up back when I first finished the books. It was one of these moments when I realized the world of Middle-Earth was so much greater than what was told in this story. Really gives a new meaning to the "Roads go ever ever on" song : every character plays a part in their own story, which is part of a far wider story that someone will continue after them, like Frodo did with Bilbo.

[@saeedshahbazian9889]

Gandalf says Sauron is looking inwards and is doubtful. It seems like Sauron thinks that it WAS devine intervention.

[@TheMasonK]

I always love learning about the war in the north. It really makes you feel like although they’re not one single large force all of the west is united and pushing back against the shadow. Separate yet together.

[@grandadmiralzaarin4962]

I wish Tolkien had written more details of the war in the North. The battle of Dale and subsequent siege of Erebor must truly have been battles worthy of song and recounting.

[@DarthGandalfYT]

There are many things we wish he wrote more about.

[@istari0]

The War in the North would make for an excellent subject for a movie or two.

[@michelmorio8026]

God beware, given how The Battle of the Five armies interpreted the battle described in „The Hobbit“ this would be a poor version of 300 with even worse CGI! No thank you, I‘d rather have no movie interpretation instead of a bad one... at least you won‘t have to deal with morons online that always reference that stupidity of a battle instead the original one from the books!

[@DarthGandalfYT]

I think it's a setting best explored in video games. There wouldn't be much of a plot in a movie other than "here's a battle, here's a battle, and here's yet another battle".

[@elvispontes4165]

L​@@michelmorio8026

[@Rynewulf]

@@DarthGandalfYTIt was the main setting for Battle for Middle Earth 2! A sadly underrated strategy game

[@jonystyles9473]

Another great video man, as always talking lore nobody that no one does, congratz keep it up we love it ;)

[@brethilnen]

"If your first attack fails miserably, don't try the exact same thing two more times." Time to reference insanity?

[@michelmorio8026]

Wouldn‘t count for Sauron... it doesn‘t matter to him how many battles he would loose, how many thousands of his servants would get slaughtered... his military victory in the end is inevitable as long as the Ring is out there! It doesn‘t even matter if it’s in ten days or in ten years! The only situation that could turn the tides against him was the destruction of the ring... which was unimaginable to him Not even Aragorn‘s return and him together with Gandalf uniting the whole West could have prevented that! Their defeat would just be slower and by draining

[@tominiowa2513]

@@michelmorio8026 There is always the possibility of a wicker basket containing angry Valar or an angry Eru being lowered down from skyhooks to a window outside the topmost residential level of Barad-dûr. But one gets the feeling that deus ex machina was one of Tolkien's least favorite literary devices.

[@sageofcaledor8188]

Enjoyed the video! The northern theatre I find is an excellent part of the war. It is a shame it is overshadowed.

[@DerKindershreck]

Good job with this. Thanks

[@jackolantern147]

I wonder, was Saurons army stronger in the 2nd or the 3rd age? With the Olog Hai and Uruk Hai being made in the 3rd age, and the repurposed Gondorian forts like Cirith Ungol, was Saurons military stronger than it was in the 2nd age?

[@lachlanhawkes-law3396]

That's a great question that I would love an answer to

[@michelmorio8026]

Given the high numbers of Noldorin & Sindar Elves and Arnorians & Gondorians (or Numenorians earlier) in the Second Age, I‘d guess Saurons numbers were much higher in the Second Age then the Third, or else, the Wars wouldn‘t have gone so long and the Alliance(s) wouldn‘t have had such high losses if Sauron’s forces were not significantly higher then their own! An their forces were much stronger/numerical then in the third age! Was it Aragorn or Lord Imrahil who sarcastically joked about what they could muster to „attack“ the Morannon? Six thousand in total (Rohirrim & Gondorians), one of them said, not even the size of the vanguard of what Gondor or even Arnor could muster back in the day. To put in in perspective, the vanguard usually was just a part of the entire cavalry and light armoured flexible infantry to secure positions for the incoming rest of the army

[@LeHobbitFan]

Nice!

[@thomasquayle2517]

I’m quite intrigued as to how the battle of Dale played out. I’d say it’s a fair assumption Dale was fortified (history of attacking dragons and orcs, lots of wealth to guard and ready access to best masons in middle earth). So did Dain march out of Erebor and help man the walls with Brand who’d got back with Easterlings hot on his heels; or did they risk a pitched battle outside that went wrong; or did they decide they could never hold the city and carry out an opposed evacuation/retreat into the mountain over 3 days?

[@michelmorio8026]

I always interpret it the way the Dalians fought the Easterlings when they were crossing the river (10th), then there was around 4-5 days of skirmishes against their vanguard (till 14th) when they finally reached Dale, which if I’m not totally wrong got evacuated into Erebor! Now, you have the situation that you just have to defend a small penetrable area into the mountain, which would allow the dwarves and humans sorties to harass the Easterlings’ vanguard, and retreat into the protection of the mountain again and again until the 17th, when the whole army of the Easterlings is in front of the mountain and they have dug in enough so the defenders cannot attack them with risking too heavy casualties... that would be the 3 days mark of „battle“ and the beginning of the ten days of siege till the 27th! At least that’s what I would expect of them doing, given they are massively outnumbered but can use the terrain, defenses and superiority in equipment/armoury/weaponry and combat prowess in their advantage, if they create situations where the numerical advantage doesn’t count as much (as long as the situation allows them to do so)

[@oliverrichardson7856]

Great video

[@napoleoncomplex2712]

If your attacks fail, try the exact same thing again. Your opponent will never expect you to do the same thing you have done 37 times before the 38th time!

[@dlxmarks]

I've never been able to decide if Sauron's terrible strategic planning was intentionally depicted that way or if Tolkien just wasn't that informed about broad military planning. Why would Sauron have squandered so much of his forces on defensive targets like Lorien and Erebor which weren't willing or able to go on the offensive instead of committing everything to crushing Gondor and then taking out the rest piecemeal?

[@JurzGarz]

I feel like the elves of Lorien and the Dwarves of Erebor would’ve been more willing to send help to Gondor if their own homelands weren’t under threat.

[@dlxmarks]

@@JurzGarz Given the lack of diplomatic relations between Gondor and either of those realms, I doubt any help would have been sent. And even so, any troops they would spare from the defense of their regions would be fairly inconsequential.

[@Imperialistic82]

I hope the battle of Erebor and Dol Guldur assault on Woodland Realm and Lothlorien could be adapted as a animated after the War of Rohirrim.

[@pippinisawesome52]

YOUR OUTROS SLAY ME🤣🤣

[@billychops1280]

So bad Lorian survived because of Celebrimbor

[@saliston]

He should have thrown all his forces into one attack against Mirkwod. Destroyed the northern elves then dale and then combined the forces to destroy Lorien.

[@jkranites]

Theoden left 20,000 soldiers for Rohans defense