War in Middle-earth - The Battle of the Five Armies

[@ThePalaeontologist]

Nice overview. I'd agree that Thranduil's army represented at Erebor, was really just a rapid reaction force. They anticipated rival claimants on the treasure and about a thousand of Thranduil's finest were probably assumed to be more than enough to deal with any human or Dwarven treasure claimants. The large Orc army was not part of the plan. The force Thranduil took was a fraction of the true military potential of Mirkwood in this era, as you know. It also could be interpreted as Tolkien subtly indicating just how dangerous this was even for the Elves - as even they would not dare leave it too unguarded. As dramatic as that idea is, perhaps the more prosaic and simplistic alternative, is that nobody expected a major battle. Thranduil's force was more of a large security detail and enforcement unit on rapid deployment, wanting to get to Erebor before other factions started showing up treasure hunting. Thranduil took what seems like a single Royal Regiment though granted, it is never called that and this is just my own inference/speculation. With ~1,000 Elves, that equates to roughly two battalions (albeit slightly understrength ones by real world, modern standards - though just as well one could reasonably speculate that they are elite and fewer because of that) Are the archers with King Thranduil, a rough equivalent of Royal Retinue Longbowmen in Medieval England? Are the main soldiery Royal Guards? etc In the Peter Jackson film adaptation, the Mirkwood Elves seem to be more like 3,000-4,000 strong for dramatic effect. In the film, there are clearly different types of Mirkwood soldiers, with the red cloaked ones apparently being Thranduil's Royal Guards. I still fully believe Mirkwood's true military strength in this era was around 10,000, with the vast majority constantly fending off incursions by Orcs, Spiders and worse. Otherwise, guarding the Halls of Thranduil. When you think about it, Mirkwood is massive, and ~10,000 Elves are essentially the rough equivalent of just one modern military Division, categorically, expected to protect a Kingdom. Sure, Thranduil's people are deliberately confined to Northern Mirkwood as evil from Dol Guldur to the South continues to spread. However, even just Northern Mirkwood is easily bigger than plenty of real world countries. Every soldier counts as precious units, considering what surrounds them. If I were in Mirkwood, knowing that a large Orc garrison lay to the South in Dol Guldur - not to mention the apparently sentient, nightmare fuel packed, giant spider _infestation_ all over large swathes of the Woodland ReaIm - I'd also be unsure about the wisdom of just taking half the entire army off border patrol duty and ranging duty, on what seemed like a straightforward debt collecting/treasure acquiring mission. One, modern and real-world military Division sized army, surrounded by dangers in every direction, defending an area several Divisions would be better for. Obviously the Elves are generally dwindling too. Maybe if it was "just" the Spiders (personally I'd rather fight the Orcs any day, hurricane force _NOPE_ concerning the Spiders) then that would be vaguely acceptable, but clearly Dol Guldur would still be a huge danger. Estimating the exact size of the Dol Guldur garrisons is tricky, either in this era or later in the War of the Ring, though I'd reckon ~10,000 in this era and maybe anywhere between 20,000 and 30,000 in the War of the Ring timeline. The latter concept would make Dol Guldur credible as a simultaneous threat to _both_ Lorien and Mirkwood. Dol Guldur was basically Sauron's Northern Middle Earth HQ and a central command stronghold outside of Mordor, on the same sort of latitude as Lóthlorien and Isengard. Had Lorien been overrun and had Isengard survived to theoretically fight Mordor, then Dol Guldur's legions would be first into battle against Isengard. Naturally, those are huge "ifs", with a Gandalf shaped obstacle in Rohan - right where he wisely knew he needed to be - and a Galadriel shaped barrier in Lóthlorien. This doesn't stop the Ents and Huorns going berserk either. Still, Saruman's scheme to decapitate the leadership of Rohan, _almost_ won out at the Hornburg. Had he mopped up Rohan he'd likely go for either Eriador or Lorien next (possibly as a joint attack with Dol Guldur) Assuming the Ents still attacked Isengard it might be game over for Saruman anyway - but it would also be an idea for Saruman to escape to the theoretically destroyed Hornburg where his army would be, and to try and retake Isengard later (?) The Ents are kind of hard to deal with but it's not impossible; especially as they dwindle in number even worse than the Elves. True enough it was said only Sauron bearing the One Ring could overpower Galadriel in her Golden Woods, bearing a now theoretically powerless Nenya - or maybe she'd have to hide it and not use it were Sauron to regain the One Ring, as she did before in the Second Age, when Sauron was at large and rampant in physical form. However, I do believe Galadriel would end up the _Lady of the Ashes_ had Lorien properly been besieged from East _and_ West, for years if necessary. Her people, the Galadhrim, would be facing unavoidably heavy-attrition, if forced to fight Isengard and Dol Guldur simultaneously. I just don't buy it that Lorien could hold even with Galadriel, if besieged for months or years. Not against them. Orcish casualties would be severe but done properly, Saruman could defeat Lorien. In my version, I imagine Nazgûl leading a great host from Dol Guldur, likely Khamûl the Easterling, 2nd greatest of the Nazgûl under the Witch-King of Angmar. Saruman would lock Orthanc (or leave the ruins of Edoras, alternatively) and take his full strength to Lorien. It'd be interesting to see Saruman of Many Colours VS Lady Galadriel. Quite the match up indeed. She'd probably win but still, if anyone stood a chance it'd be one of the Wizards. Saruman would now have Narya from Gandalf, too. If she lost and Lorien was wiped off the map, then maybe at this particular point, the Mordor host would attack Saruman's remaining troops. The idea being to capture Saruman and take him to Barad-Dûr. Or maybe Saruman would now possess Nenya too, after killing Galadriel? That'd certainly piss Sauron off something fierce and rotten. This would be even more curious, had Saruman lost Isengard to the Ents as in the story. Alternatively, Saruman would bank on invading Eriador, burning the Shire and Buckland, capturing Mithlond and wheeling 'round to take Bree then Imladris/Rivendell; until he could try and retake Isengard from Treebeard. Dol Guldur would be busy fighting Thranduil to the North, giving Isengard some time to recover in Eriador. The Rangers of the North, Mithlond/Grey Havens Elves, Imladris/Rivendell Elves, Bree-men and Hobbits, probably wouldn't stand a chance at that point, unless Imladris/Rivendell managed to frustrate Saruman and bog him down in a long siege (unlikely) Isengarder forces would multiply in Eriador, leaving Mordor and it's vassals to deal with Denethor's Gondor, which would fall, while Dol Guldur would possibly overrun Thranduil with undivided attention post- theoretical Fall of Lóthlorien. Dale would fall but Erebor would hold - for a while. But with Gondor destroyed, Aragorn slain in Rohan and Thranduil defeated in this scenario, the Easterlings would eventually win. Isengard would be fortifying itself, mopping up Eriador and preparing to fight Mordor. By now the free peoples are not the issue - and Frodo and Sam will not get to Mount Doom. Thranduil's grief over Legolas's death in Rohan, might be contributory to his defeat. If Sauron did get the One Ring after Frodo was captured, then even Isengard would be doomed. If the One Ring is not factored in, then maybe Isengard could fortify the few passes through the Misty Mountains and block the Gap of Rohan with his legions - leading to a brutal and prolonged border war. Sauron would win eventually though. If Saruman had the Three Elven Rings plus his and Gandalf's staffs, then he'd be far more dangerous - a genuine problem for any Mordor army e.g. he'd easily beat the Witch-King in a fight. After Gondor fell, with no Army of the Dead 'recruited'/shamed by Aragorn, therefore no slaugthter of the Corsairs of Umbar at Pelargir, then they might be sent to attack Isengard controlled Eriador from the sea - for which they would have little reply besides Saruman using his powers and magic to devastate a fleet by the coast, maybe. Thranduil's Mirkwood _might_ hold out longer than Rohan but eventually it'd fall too, simply overrun by overwhelming numbers. Lorien, Erebor and Minas Tirith falling effectively = game over for the free peoples. Rohan was a serious obstacle but Mordor would eventually defeat Rohan in a protracted war, as the Rohirrim knew. Everything else on the map would just get rolled up and smoked if the three most important strongholds fell. Arguably, if _any one of them was lost_ hence why all were attacked by large forces in the story. Sauron allowed himself to be *Defeated in Detail* by frantically marking and attacking almost everywhere at once. The One Ring situation and Fellowship quest aside, strategically, Sauron could win the war even without the One Ring, had he deployed his armies more carefully. In his hubris, he squandered his own great patience. In fairness, recent news of the One Ring forced his many fingered hand. Thranduil _might_ aid the Dwarves but he was busy enough with Dol Guldur. Gondor could be marked by Uruks, Haradrim and Corsairs of Umbar. Had the Witch-King taken 100,000 Orcs to reinforce the Easterlings against Erebor immediately, then that would ensure Sauron's victory. Yet Sauron was always paranoid about a repeat of the War of the Last Alliance; desperate to keep his enemies apart, to the point of perhaps overestimating their real military potential, to his own detriment.

[@avonthesageoc4980]

Personally I'd prefer to measure the land area of north Mirkwood then use historical examples of how many people there would be per square mile(180 was the maximum but the elves are immortal and they have gardens that can support far far greater amounts of people). Afterwards I would take into consideration that your average medieval empire ish thing would be able to recruit 5% of its population for war. That should give a far more reasonable number(if we go by historical examples). Edit:I forgot to mention there is a 3 to 5 square mile distance usually from one populated square mile to another.

[@jacobgutow-ellis1612]

I think you make really good points, but 10,000 elves seems a bit high. I know in his video on how strong the elves were, he estimated around 5-6,000 elves for the Mirkwood's army. That kinda makes sense since the elven population has been in decline, and they had lost 2/3rds of their army during the war of the last alliance. So I would guess the Mirkwood elves might have had 15,000 during the last alliance, lost up to 10,000, and maybe got some strength back. Overall, I think 5-6, maybe even 7,000 elves at most is what they could've mustered during the battle of the five armies and the war of the ring. Otherwise I think you make good points, and I completely agree with what you say about Dol Guldur.

[@avonthesageoc4980]

@@jacobgutow-ellis1612 I kinda disagree with the only 7,000 sentiment infact I think 10,000 is a bit low for a few reasons. The first is that if we are to assume that the elves have your standard medieval recruitment system they would be able to mobilize 5% of there population. The second is that there population in north Mirkwood would be fairly big as elven gardens seem to provide several more calories per acre then a normal garden. Granted there would be a 3 square mile distance per populated square mile and a 10 square mile distance per elven village but the point still stands that there population should dictate that there numbers should be great enough to give them an army beyond 10k. The third and last point is that dangerous times often cause armies to grow in size as more and more wish to protect the ones they love.

[@ThePalaeontologist]

@@avonthesageoc4980 Well yeah and I had such things in mind, though Mirkwood has the largest Elven population in Middle -Earth by the War of the Ring. To be fair anything between 5,000 and 10,000 seems right to me. Also, considering how surrounded by danger Mirkwood is, and how harmonised the Elves are with nature, living off the land without destroying it with heavy industry - something Men and Dwarves aren't nearly as good at in terms of conserving forests etc - the Medieval Europe comparison doesn't exactly fit of course. I think Medieval Sherwood Forest in England, might be a bit more militarised too if thriving nests of giant spiders were dotted around the place lol Mirkwood would be surprisingly strong with 8,000 to 10,000 warriors in my opinion - yet they would still be no match for the true might of Mordor. Thranduil's army drove back Dol Guldur yes, but Dol Guldur was simultaneously attacking Lorien three times. Like basically all factions of the free peoples in this time, alone, Mirkwood is no match for the hundreds of thousands Sauron has at his disposal.

[@avonthesageoc4980]

@@ThePalaeontologist Though sauron did attack mirkwood and they managed to hold(during the war of the ring)no matter how skilled you are there's a point were numbers are to overwhelming. I do respect your opinion but to me 10,000 seems to low to be believed if that's the case then the spiders would of probably pushed the elves to the farthest reaches of Mirkwood or Dol Guldor would of wiped them out by now. Skill is 1 thing yes but a numbers edge that is truly gigantic is another thing entirely. So my personal belief is that it had to of been a pretty large force defending Northern Mirkwood wich to be fair would be justified due to them being sorounded by nothing but enemies(say for the north wich had Gondor and Rohan but mordor was still there).

[@alessandrofinazzer2881]

So basically Beorn saved everyone like a fucking legend

[@neildaly2635]

He was too much for the Goblins to bear. (I couldn’t help myself)

[@jerrydeem8946]

....and you are correct....

[@stegura83]

I thought Legolas and Tauriel did! 😆

[@joshthomas-moore2656]

This was much better than the movie battle.

[@DarthGandalfYT]

I think the movie battle has some good moments, although the Elves jumping the Dwarven phalanx certainly isn't one of them...

[@michelmorio8026]

That movie sadly ruined the entire trilogy for me... the extended Version(s) though redeemed some parts

[@joshthomas-moore2656]

@@michelmorio8026 Yes it does, the Elves firing over the Dwarf sheild wall is much better than them jumping over wall. Also the extended version does also answer where Thorin found the goat to ride.

[@michelmorio8026]

@@joshthomas-moore2656 ... you‘re right, but sadly it doesn‘t change all these stupid „tactics“, or rather the absence of any... the fact alone that Azog is the most tactically sound character 🙈 or they did the 180 on Dain, making him the common stereotypical dwarf instead of the wise, sound & very special/unusual dwarf he actually is

[@ChrisVillagomez]

@@joshthomas-moore2656 I kind of hate the goat-riding Dwarves in the movie, the only time Dwarves ever rode horses was in the beginning of the Hobbit and when Gimli was with Legolas on a horse in Lord of the Rings, the Dwarves famously hated cavalry of any kind so it's really bizarre that they gave the Dwarves cavalry instead of just having them on foot like in the book

[@samuelleask1132]

5:11 thank you for that homie, you’re a real g

[@christophermacomber1261]

Hard to believe that the tortured dwarf who didn’t even know his own name somehow managed to keep possession of the map and/or key, but it’s a good story

[@rafexrafexowski4754]

This was Thrain, Thorin's father and the one who possessed one of the seven dwarven rings. Sauron was mostly concerned about his ring, which he took from him. He likely did not bother to take the map and key, especially because he did not know the purpose of the key.

[@Dragon_Rider]

Loved this! I learned a lot. I forgot Beorn destroys Bolg.

[@GirlNextGondor]

Excellent video. I am definitely excited to see what you make of the War of the Ring.

[@saliston]

One thing i always had a hard time coming to terms with is how barren the lands were but somehow they had these large armies come out of nowhere.

[@lars9925]

This is perception because most of the adventures happen in the 'barren lands', but there are lots of civilizations around. In the Iron Hills, the Woodland-Realm, Esgaroth and Goblin-town... The odd thing is not that people come from nowhere, but that people live that concentrated. The urbanization of Middle Earth is crazy.

[@MasterBombadillo]

Two videos in a week? You're spoiling us!

[@gumbyshrimp2606]

I weep for Smaug’s death. The loss of a dragon is not one that can be recouped.

[@Dramaticus]

Tinder mention was 🔥

[@jonashornke5012]

Finally, i was waiting for this moment! Most underrated youtuber ever!! Thanks for making my day once more!

[@sageofcaledor8188]

Wonderful video! Thank you for making it!

[@mrmoneybags]

Another great video. Keep up the excellent work!

[@jackolantern147]

How powerful were the armies of Morgoth? I'd like to see a video or two if needed, detailing his armies from the beginning of arda to the war of wrath. Possibly with your interpretation on his army size in the Dagor Dagorath at the end. I think it would be epic.

[@untitled568]

If you still want the possible answer after 2 years, if the Sauron had around 300 - 500 thousands orcs and man and still was considered somewhat defetable (he was after all deafeated 3 times conventionally). Morgoth´s army must have been vastly bigger, probably as much as millions, but I wouldnt go above 3-4 million. Plus he had winged dragons and Balrogs, which were of course much larger threats than just orcs

[@jonystyles9473]

Great video man, really aprecciated been wondering for some of these facts for ages! Nice and precise lore, love it! Cant wait to see the next videos I really think youre doing an excelent job that other channels dont do! ;) just a thing im not already sure, I would suppose Dale had a little more people on the fighting and I do think they were a little more numerous than most people think, considering woemen and children helped in the fight, I would say between 2.000 and 3.000 fighting after the attack of Smaug, and they do manage to hold some part of the city on the battle, and they needed numbers to do so. Esgaroth was bigger than most people think. also I would give a little more for the Elves, sure he was not expecting for a war when they arrive at Erebor, still I would give them a 2.000 2.500 for the prespective they had a the same number defending the woods of Mirkwood while the battle starts. (4.000-5.000 total) how did Gandalf didnt knew it was Thrain since he already knew him? never knew that amazing..

[@toddfeather5760]

Excellent video can’t wait for next one hopefully get all the war between evil and good that starts once sauron returns

[@canonmontage4956]

Whilst I agree with your point about Frain I think you really should have elaborated more about Very heavy Catastrophic Iron Hills Woodland Realm Lake-town Eagles Misty Mountains (mostly from Mount Gundabad) Grey Mountains Commanders Gandalf Thorin II Oakenshield† Elvenking Bard the Bowman Dain II Ironfoot Beorn Gwaihir Bolg† Strength 1000 Elf spearmen of the Woodland Realm + several hundred elven archers 500+ Dwarves of the Iron Hills 200-300 Lakemen Several hundred Eagles "Innumerable" Orcs, Bats and Wargs; 10,000-25,000

[@shanenolan8252]

Cheers been looking forward to this one

[@untitled568]

My powers have doubled since the last time we met, Count

[@shanenolan8252]

@@untitled568 twice the pride double the fall

[@morgant.dulaman8733]

Weirdly enough, as nightmarish as that bit about the bats is, I like this element. It helps make the battle of Five armies feel more like a fairy tale battle in line with the general tone of the book than an attempt to lead into the Lord of the Rings more mythic style.

[@dougredshirt3991]

Would the Wood Elves have been armored? I always pictured them in mail and kite shields like the Noldor, but now wonder if they were. The Silvan elves were not that much into metal working and they were most of the population. Being a wood land people, I see spears and bows, which require less metal. Also dressed in green clothing and no mail. Maybe a few units of Sindar elves with armor since they were the upper class and had been influenced in the First Age by the Noldor. It would be neat if you could do a video on what you think of the varies arms and armor of the different races.

[@DarthGandalfYT]

Being from Doriath, Thranduil might've witnessed the aftermath of the defeat of the lightly armoured Green Elves at the hands of Morgoth's Orcs so I like to think that his spearmen wore light mail at the very least.

[@michelmorio8026]

I would say there is in general a lack of advancement in armour all over Middle-earth! The best armour available in the books was chainmail, at least I never found something else! So the best armour would be chainmails of mithril, followed by those of the Noldor (or Rivendell & Lindon), The Dwarves of the Iron Hills (& later Erebor) and then Gondor, who according to the Royal Armoury in Edoras gave some chainmails to the nobles amongst the Rohirrim, but the Rohirrim themself seem to have no knowledge of producing them themself

[@jonystyles9473]

bro Mirkwood Elves trade for centuries and centuries metals and other precious metals with the Dwarfs of the North and also from Dale and Esgaroth, by the time of the Third Age they were all much better equiped that in the past. its already been discussed, thats how these races survived there for ages, trading what they have best for what they need most, simple. :)

[@michelmorio8026]

@@jonystyles9473 the question is rather, would they be able to produce armour out of such metal! The Rohirrim for example got some chainmail from their Gondorian allies, they have metal and are able to forge their weapons, but they haven‘t the knowledge to forge armour made out of metal (at least not of the finest quality)... so since there is little sharing of knowledge, we shouldn‘t simply assume the Silvan Elves of Mirkwood are automatically well equipped! Legolas for example got an upgrade considering his bow in Lothlorien too... and the Galadhrim & the Elves of Mirkwood were on good terms, but apparently didn‘t trade & share knowledge that much to put it mildly... good relations weren‘t the case concerning the Dwarves

[@alejandroelizondo7078]

great video

[@SvengelskaBlondie]

17:44 "he also gives some wealth to the master, who goes crazy and runs off and starves to death in the mountains" Wasn't there some part that said that the master got afflicted by "Dragon sickness/fever", I can swear I remember something like that being the reason behind this odd behaviour of the master..

[@rafexrafexowski4754]

That is true, but dragon sickness seems to just be a metaphor for someone becoming greedy like a dragon and not a real disease, though a dragon's long influence on treasure does seem to encourage this behavior in the treasure's new bearer.

[@MrTrakiiski]

Burzum-ishi, Nar Armauks! ):- From some time I was wandering how Azog and then Bolg managed to lead such massive orc armies, since in the other works of Tolkien there is always someone with great will power that leads them directly - Morgoth, Sauron, Balrogs Dragons ,Nazguls and so on - creatures with great commanding will. My suggestion is meta - Since The Hobbit was the first he just didn't have in mind that principle yet. Do you have other explanations either in lore or meta?

[@lars9925]

While your explanation is plausible, there is also an in-world reasoning. The Hobbit is unique in that it's the only major story without a Dark Lord on the Dark Throne. Orcs are typically kept obedient by the will of the Dark Lord and his lieutenants, who must control them to ensure they fight and die for their cause. However, in the absence of a Dark Lord, Orcs can act independently. A powerful Orc leader can gather and command an army, even a massive one. But this independence ceases the moment a Dark Lord rises and claims their loyalty again. As you may recall there is also the Great Orc from Goblin-town, thus there are actually three notable Orc leaders in this period. However, once Sauron resurfaces, all powerful leaders (whether Orcs, Haradrim, or Easterlings) disappear from the stories, as their forces become obedient to the Dark Lord alone.

[@markstott6689]

Gandalf would have kicked the Witch King's arse straight back through the gate. As Gandalf himself said, only Sauron was more dangerous than himself. You could argue that Gandalf wasn't really a man, but a Maiar, and therfore could have ended the Witch King. However, I'm happy to leave that glory to Meriadoc and Éowyn. Just to have seen Gandalf reveal himself to the Witch King and watch him baulk at the challenge would have been worth the entry fee alone. A Witch King nervously retreating would have also been delicious viewing. I do wish PJ had left that brief moment alone and not seen fit to meddle. Tolkien knew what he was writing. 😊❤😊

[@JasonSmith-we5ls]

Loved it

[@YarPirates-vy7iv]

16:14 Beorn "bears" him to safety. 😂

[@TJDious]

"Thranduil isn't really a dick in the books" He imprisoned 13 Dwarves indefinitely for trespass. I call that a dick.

[@DarthGandalfYT]

You're right about that, but I think his good deeds outweighed his bad deeds. He helped the Lake-men when there was nothing to gain from it, and he attempted to de-escalate the situation when Thorin was trying his best to start a war.

[@damonr-fk5rp]

I've joked that it should've been called the Battle of Six Armies because Beorn was an army unto himself and he performed a critical part of the battle by killing the enemy general.

[@blueline9052]

A video idea could be What if Bilbo never found the ring? It's been done by Men of the West but your takes on such things are more interesting

[@pavelslama5543]

Bard came to the gates of Erebor, proclaiming that he will not recognize the kingdom of dwarves until they pay the income tax, which infuriates Thorin.

[@paolomesterom6899]

You’re videos are always fucking good

[@guille3622]

Hahahaha it seems that like me, you dislike both Thingol and Thranduil, and it's pretty funny the way you show it with your comments in passing

[@michelmorio8026]

Those Sindar elven lordlings dwelling in the forests and caring for nothing outside their borders are just annoying 😅 Half as wise but double as stubborn & proud as their Noldorin cousins or those Sindar that became the Falathrimand Elves of Lindon

[@Dome_is_life]

Beorn Beats Battlestar Galactica

[@tspoon772]

Do you think it may be possible that the dwarves started the battle with 500 men, but over the course of the battle more troops trickled in from the Iron Hills?

[@michelmorio8026]

Very unlikely, cause they were basically positioned on a rocky hill and already attacked from 3 sites, 4 when they got encircled after Thorin’s charge Besides, not a single source reports such a thing to happen! The strength of the Dwarves from the Iron Hills was their heavy armour though... they were basically small tanks in the finest chainmail available to mortals (which, in counterpart to the movies, is the farthest developed armour in Tolkien’s Middle-earth)... there are even hints the Dwarves from the Iron Hills (& later Erebor too) may have partly plate armour (legs, arms) available, as the only culture

[@tspoon772]

@@michelmorio8026 couldn’t they have trickled in over Ravenhill? It would make more sense that the elves charged in support of Thorin because the dwarves who were arriving from their rear went over in support

[@michelmorio8026]

@@tspoon772 the elves still positioned on their left flank were mainly archers and spearman protecting them... archers charging is literally kamikaze, cause they are the lightest armoured branch of your troops and spearman are rather to hold the line and protect an area, not to charge into enemy melee! To reach the Raven Hill, your theoretical troops, coming in from the east, would have to go around the entire mountain in the north... the Battle would be pretty much over! Besides, they wouldn‘t have information what’s going on! Their last and only information was, Smaug is dead, Thorin calls for assistance! No info about Orcs/goblins being in the valley or Elves & Humans encamped in front of the main gate!

[@tspoon772]

@@michelmorio8026 we don’t know which direction the dwarves arrived from. They could have just as well been coming from the north west. But I just find it hard to think that the dwarves, with 500, were able to fight out a prolonged battle against the overwhelming Orc armies. Since 500 fighting dwarves is all that Dain could muster in a hurry, surely there were more on route from the iron hills or maybe even from elsewhere in the Grey Mountains. It makes the battle more believable if more Dwarven troops managed to trickle in over the spurs; it’s not like the Free Peoples were surrounded on all sides

[@michelmorio8026]

@@tspoon772 again, they DID NOT expect a whole enemy army there! The army coming in was just what was available in the Iron Hills! We don‘t even know how large their settlement there is, besides they are still depleted from the war against the Orcs and the battle of Azanulbizar... Dwarves are so slowly concerning getting offspring, it takes so much time to replenish the losses! Besides the text specifically says these were the veterans of the war against the Orcs! And as a wise king like Dain, not expecting a real battle, you would just take those experienced and baptized in previous battles and leave the rookies at home! The settlements in the Grey Mountains got destroyed by Orcs, Dragons and Cold-dragons or were then abandoned by Thror and his brother and they returned their people and their realm to the Erebor some 300 years before Bot5A! So no, the Iron Hills lie in the East, being in a hurry, you take the shortest route... that would be coming in from the East! And AGAIN, alone the fact that no source or retelling of the battle names or even hints at any reinforcements coming in besides the eagles and Beorn, it’s just an hypothesis without any foundation Additionally, the dwarves of the iron hills are basically the tanks of middle-earth, they have the best armour available so they would be good protected against some Orcs in awful if at all having armour and wacky weapons... their only thing is their physical strength and overwhelming numbers This dwarven host was even for the elves & lakemen considered a threat who had twice or triple their numbers, cause arrows and spears would have done little against their armour 😉

[@patrickhidalgo4659]

Ahh today is a good day

[@Baelor-Breakspear]

Rankin and Bass The Hobbit = the best Hobbit film version

[@neildaly2635]

Thrain was dammed if he’d let that greasy necromancer get his hands on his son’s birthright, so he hid the map and key in the only place he could ... sorry I’ve watched too many prison movies. Like the way you roll!

[@michelmorio8026]

Now I have the scene from Pulp Fiction in front of my eye, with Gandalf being Christopher Walken visiting the child version of Bruce Willis who is Thorin then 😂😂😂

[@jerrydeem8946]

You are correct, he indeed shoved it up his dol guldur......

[@shanenolan8252]

Yes I recommend tax evasion. Just don't get caught

[@stegura83]

10:17 Horrible CGI!! Looks like a cut scene from a PS2 game.

[@andreymudik2905]

First?