Dating as a Mormon Young Single Adult (YSA) Woman | Ep. 1967

[@kaitlinpilivi285]

Recurrent pregnancy loss is what led my husband and I out of the church. It's an incredibly heartbreaking thing to deal with without all the spiritual turmoil. It's been almost 2 years since we decided we were done with the church and I honestly don't think I'd be alive if we hadn't left. Huge thank you to these wonderful women sharing their stories.

[@unicorntamer2207]

There's an entire episode where someone talks about their hardship with infertility and pregnancy loss.

[@unicorntamer2207]

"Finding Peace after Infertility" episode 1636. It's part of a really good series called Theive Stories on Mormon Stories hosted by Margi.

[@danwilsonpastor]

@@kaitlinpilivi285 thanks for sharing and I hope you find complete peace and joy with or without children. 🙏♥️🙏

[@carimccormick]

I worked hard to be a good wife for 29 years. All that work evaporated when he died. Lesson learned is that being a wife is a role NOT an identity.

[@greg-op2jh]

I am so sorry ❤

[@Morethanathing]

I am here if you want me

[@nolinpowe]

@@carimccormick I heard that women who are single moms even if the husband has died are frowned upon because they're still grieving, but are pushed to find a husband right away, because the LDS church feels that you have to have a man with keys of the priesthood present in the home to have a fully functioning family. I'm really sorry you had to go through that, & I'm sorry for your loss. I hope things get better for you

[@VoltaDoMar]

I've never been Mormon but I am fascinated by ex-Mormon content. People who leave and are able to speak about it are so brave and inspiring to me, and they remind all of us of the importance of choosing who we want to be in life, rather than letting someone else's expectations tell you. All of these women are amazing.

[@timnewman1172]

I'm a Never-Mo, but I'm fascinated by Mormon culture and the history of the religion... I live in the midwest, and within a day's drive from several Mormon historical sites.

[@markhayward7411]

So cool to have you join the conversation. I was born in a Mormon family and I stopped believing May of 2023. I too am inspired by others stories.

[@trevanon7450]

@@markhayward7411 Actually very common for non-mormons to watch the show and particpate in the discussion. MSP has about 50% nevermo audience.

[@hanah_clair]

I applied for this panel. Dang, didn’t get in. 30 y/o woman, single, never married and had an insane 10 years in the Ysa before leaving 😊 maybe next time! These women were amazing and I resonated with everything they said about being a woman in the Ysa.

[@oddcheese6384]

Same, but I didn’t apply for the panel. Maybe a future one ❤️

[@michelecraig9658]

What a wonderful group of young women. I am always so impressed with how much emotional intelligence, self introspection, and joy these women shine forth.

[@deanacarter7986]

The healing work you do is tremendous, John and Margie. You make an amazing team, and I admire you both so much. My patriarchal blessing said I would "heal the hearts of many" (after finding out I was majoring counseling psych 😂). But YOU are truly healing the hearts of MANY. Thank you for all you do!

[@shelbyacosta9057]

This panel has everything! I laughed! I cried! I wanna be friends with all these ladies!

[@brandymulvany8516]

I am the same way lol. I can definitely relate even being a never-in.

[@Jenli-cu2hv]

There was tremendous pressure to get married at the LDS college I attended. I developed high anxiety about dating Mormon men. Then, with the encouragement of the school counselor and bishop, I ended up having a quick engagement and endured 20 years of miserable marriage. I’m so glad that I got out of the Mormon church and married together.

[@Ryan_Keith]

DANA is 💯love the authenticity, the vulnerability, the woman she is . If she created content or wrote a book I’d be number one in line!

[@danaraine91]

You are too too kind. 😭😊

[@therehn]

What an amazing bunch of ladies, really appreciate their candor and honesty. They are also great speakers, do invite them back for other things!

[@kristiefrost7149]

Just to start out the conversation, my daughter says, she will never date another LDS man, inactive, or X Mormon. She says they are all addicted to porn and all have sexual shame and guilt that they place on her over sexual relations. They have problems taking accountability for their own actions, they place blame on others, and put unrealistic expectations on material and physical appearance.

[@BrianWaller-qe7gr]

I can same the very same thing with women. Stop putting out during the marriage and surprised he turned to porn. Unrealistic expectations on appearance that’s a woman’s specialty in dating. Won’t date anyone under 6 foot, average looking men are invisible to most women, must make $100k. How do I know because I’m one of the “incels” you created by not giving guys like me a chance. Not taking accountability? Lmao that’s a woman’s kryptonite. Your blanket statement on men is disgusting. I’m a convert that’s inactive that was only in for 16 months. I’d run circles around then men you picked. But you do you

[@deedranicolehooks]

I really enjoyed this panel. Marge (sorry if I spelled her name wrong) really has that ability to relate and soothe and understand. Her and John are a wonderful pair for interviewing...they both are so great at their parts. Also, I so relate to lots of this...I got married at 19, and we were SHOCKED when we couldn't get pregnant. It took us 15 years to have our first child, and it was such a hard 15 years. I felt like such a failure and my husband and I had to really rethink our expectations. I'm glad our marriage survived that time. We now have 4 kids. ♡

[@mylittlebug14]

😘❤

[@jacqueline5625]

This was fantastic. All of these women show so much more wisdom and insight than I ever could have at their age if I were asked to articulate my deconstruction/deconversion journey. As someone who grew up as a born again Christian and also deconverted in my twenties, and for the same reason of having to deal with the feelings of alienation and disorientation of being single while everybody else in the church got married, I can relate with all of these women in some way or another. It's incredible that even though I was never Mormon, all of the feelings and thoughts they expressed were totally what I experienced at their age. Fourteen years later, I find these conversations so healing because they validate what I experienced. Thank you for organizing this panel, I hope you do a similar panel discussion in the future because although I relate a lot to many of your guests, this one hit really home for me as someone who is still unmarried in mid-life, with a lot of dating experience, and currently happy in a relationship but also no longer stuck on the idea of marriage, kids, etc. I think this topic warrants further analysis, so I really hope you keep exploring this topic in further interviews. Thank you to all of you!

[@therehn]

You know what I would love is them all interviewing John 😄

[@danaraine91]

@mormonstories 👀 😅😅

[@mormonstories]

😂😂😂

[@naturelovin-29]

I seriously LOVED all of these ladies! So inspiring!

[@MelissaKing-y8o]

Thank you for your willingness to share. I can relate to all the women on this panel. This was painful for me to bring back memories from my youth but healing to hear I wasn’t alone in my experiences. I was so innocent and taken advantage of…makes me so angry and sad.

[@plover-xyzzy]

I'm a never-mo. I'm also a long-time Freemason. The latter is how I come to be interested in the LDS Church. The two organizations are connected at the hip more tightly than either care to admit...and, believe me, both have gone to great lengths to obfuscate the record of that relationship. I've spent a good portion of my life trying to "discover the right" (a Masonic reference ;-) Anyway, I watched this episode with great interest. Your panel are intelligent, sensitive, erudite women that ANY man should be proud to have as a partner (sorry, ladies, 40+ years married). I'd like to hear from all of them again...a sort of "where are they now" episode. Just a suggestion... I'm not a rigorous Mormon Stories watcher...just what sorta piques my interest. I do contribute what/when I can (fixed income). Dr/Mrs Dehlin and the entire OSF staff are to be commended in what they do...presenting an in-depth cultural anthropological body of work studying a unique subculture mostly in America but also elsewhere...but uniquely (19th century) American in cultural values and norms. Thanks for doing what you do with sensitivity and compassion in presenting your guests and their stories as authentically as possible but "no holds barred." Although I am not a member of the subculture of the LDS Church (no matter how knowledgeable I may be), I am fascinated by the stories you present. Here's to a great 2025 for everyone at OSF!

[@davabeardsley972]

This is an impressive panel! So beautiful, so smart, so worthy ❤

[@sweingold5686]

I am a 70 year old woman, never Mormon. I am enjoying this young panel. I appreciate all they are sharing.

[@Memememememememe123]

When I went to Snow College in the early 2000s, the guys that always tried to push boundaries and touch inappropriately were ALWAYS the returned missionaries. Then they would act like they didn't try and go do their Sunday church duties. I learned real quick being a returned missionary didn't mean they were safe to be alone with.

[@BrianWaller-qe7gr]

What I find interesting is that they find a return missionary a requirement for marriage. But it has little to no bearing on who the person actually is. My missionary completely ghosted me when they got home. Once you removed the mask of a missionary they didn’t have any compassion or respect for me. So being a return missionary means nothing to me. Big deal you can follow rules for 18-24 months good for you. But I’d rather have someone that can think outside the box not always follow the crowd. I go my own way and not care what others think.

[@elishabraithwaite2599]

My Mormon dating experience at Snow was absolutely awful.

[@emilysnow6757]

RMs were so often trouble! I knew I was supposed to admire than more than other young men, but I was so often struck by how good they...weren't! Some were great, but I have a sneaky suspicious that they would have also been great guys without going on a mission.

[@aprilshowers21]

I love these panels ❤ Thank you to all of these brave women for coming on and sharing… and thank you to the MS team for the excellent interview.

[@VoteLeslieKnope]

Wow. That quote about being Brave even though you’re letting people down made me tear up 😢

[@emilysnow6757]

I'm 45. I got married at 26. What was so surprising about this conversation is that the experiences of these younger women are identical to my experiences at BYU and my 8 years in various YSA wards.

[@emilysnow6757]

At 17:30 when she speaks about being devastated about graduating from BYU unmarried: I truly understand that feeling. I was so embarrassed to not have gotten married at BYU, that I chose not to walk at graduation. There are no pictures of me, triumphant in the hard work of done. None of that work mattered because I had failed in what mattered most.

[@mylittlebug14]

Uggh 😢

[@danaraine91]

Oh my god, I am SO sorry. 😢 As embarrassing as it is to talk about, I’m happy I could put a voice to our experience. it’s truly an awful feeling, and there’s no reason it should be that way. I mourn your loss of a graduation celebration with you, and I hope you’ve found joy and fulfillment outside of the “box”! ❤

[@emilysnow6757]

@danaraine91 I'm waayyyy older than you (I went to BYU in the late 90s), but you spoke so many of MY experiences. I spent 8 years in YSA wards. Weeeeeird stuff goes on there!

[@Ashley_aan]

My favorite Mormon Stories episode ever! These women were so honest and open and that takes a lot of courage! I’m a nevermo but I resonate SO MUCH with their struggles and what they’ve seen while dating and I’m grateful to see them reflected here.

[@danaraine91]

Thank you so much for your kind words. 🩵

[@genevawilkerson4245]

Dana’s emotional story about having to have a hysterectomy and being the kind of ideal woman in Mormonism that she actually is (I took home economics and major in those kind of classes as well at a secular college ) really touched me! Beautiful! I think sometimes as a Christian and a homeschooling mother and now a widow there is a lot of pressure on women to be this ideal woman. My marriage fell apart after 25 years. I had to figure out who I was once again, because I served my husband as a wife and military wife. His emotional issues did not pan out well in our marriage, and God did not heal him. God took me aside when I moved in with my mother and gave me another assignment. I would’ve loved to be his wife until we both passed away, but that’s not what happened. I think I must have a strong survival instinct- whatever that is -because of what I went through in our marriage, but I went back to college in my 50s got a degree went back to work continue to homeschool the last one and then after I graduated, my mother had health problems so I was constantly taking care of her being involved in my church and many other things now I live five states away from my family (my mom passed) and for reasons that only God knows, I am here and I love the snow! but I will continue to be led by his spirit because I know Jesus said i’ve come to give us life and to give us life more abundantly” , and I believe that And every day when I put my feet on the floor, I can thank him for that abundant life!

[@sarahbaz12]

This is incredible. Thank you for sharing your stories, ladies! I was briefly in a YSA for three years in the mid-late 00s. I was fully out of the church by age 21. So I had a bit of YSA (lack of) dating experience (I was never in Utah though) and it’s crazy how much is still spot on that I relate to from this video and I also got new information to how YSA dating works now/recently. Another stellar episode.

[@sarahbaz12]

I got married two years ago at the “old age” of 35 and my dad strictly told me after our father/daughter dance that he thought this day would “never come” once I left the church. It’s like my family still didn’t hold me valuable until I got married.

[@julieprince5538]

This has been a fabulous podcast! These four women are so beautiful, intelligent and articulate. They have so much courage to speak about this subject about sexuality and it will be so beneficial to both women and men! Bravo

[@ohjonash]

Never Mormon here. I grew up Catholic and, as an AFAB person, received a LOT of messaging about marriage, virginity, and purity. I really appreciated listening to this panel and hearing about their experiences with dating. Great episode!

[@WayOutHerePodcast]

I'm only in the intro and I already relate so much. Spending 10 years in YSA felt like being in hell. It was definitely such a heavy shelf item that it allowed me to question the church, discover the history, and escape.

[@oddcheese6384]

Calling the YSA Ward, a meat market, has to be one of the most accurate things I’ve ever experienced.

[@missionledcontent]

All 4 of these women are brilliant. I would love Mormon stories episodes with all of them to get to know them more. They are all so insightful.

[@xochitlkitty]

These dating stories sound like sexual assault to me. I’m never Mormon and raised in liberal Episcopalian church, so never got purity culture indoctrination but growing up in the 60s and 70s there was no idea about consent. The pressure not to be a prude was pretty intense. A similar thing happened to me my first year in college- so naive.😰 it makes me sad to hear you blaming yourselves - I did the same thing for three years until I took a women’s studies class and found out it was SA. As long as men shift the blame for their behavior on women this will continue to plague us- both purity culture and the patriarchal twisting of the sexual liberation of the 70s do that. Thanks for sharing your stories.

[@danaraine91]

Looking back, I agree! Sexual assault that we felt guilt for and were pressured into confessing about behind a closed door to an old man-another form of emotional/sexual abuse.

[@xochitlkitty]

@ absolutely!

[@unicorntamer2207]

My shelf breaking is tied to my singles ward experience. I fell in love with a nonmember friend in high school. I tried to convert him. He said he's happy to support my faith, but he had no interest in joining a religion. I considered breaking up with him. I prayed about it and didn't feel like breaking up with him was the right decision. I sat on the pew in sacrament meeting and thought to myself that if God can see into our hearts and see how much we love each other, then God won't separate us in the next life. I became inactive. And 4 years later we got married. During covid, I deconstructed. January of 2023, I officially resigned. But there was a moment where I looked around the chapel and realized it was expected to marry someone in that room. And I just felt creeped out by that. It felt off-putting.

[@lorinapetranova2607]

Very interesting conversation. It was like listening to a very relevant group of ladies. Very refreshing. No stepford wife syndrome. Felt like was hearing a more mature and knowledgeable side of younger women for a change. Very enjoyable. Many blessings ya'll. ❤❤❤

[@nicolerichman595]

Brilliant! Loved this episode!

[@marebear6727]

My sister is unable to have children but has a stepson. She got married in her mid to later 30s to a divorced lds man & still in the church. Not the churches business! Im in my mid 40s, exmormon, & still not married, & no children. Im good with it now, been going on 10 years being exmormon. Excellent podcast.

[@jamesperrett1887]

Jess If you get booted out ...Please do a Mormon story again...About your future experience

[@atTHEdishwasher]

My heart really goes out to Dana. I was also unable to conceive biological children - we tried for a decade. I also came from a high demand religion with a big emphasis on motherhood and children. The loss of that is real, and the pain is heart wrenching. We also ended up adopting, and I don't know how to describe it (but if and when Dana adopts, she will know what I mean), the biological aspect really loses its stronghold when you have this beautiful baby...it just doesn't really mean what you thought it meant, and this sweet baby is so much more. Motherhood is so much more. Family is so much more. Idk and I hope it doesn't sound trite or weird...it's just really hard to describe.

[@danaraine91]

Thank you for sharing your personal experience. I totally understand what you’re saying and I can’t wait for that day. It feels like a huge mountain to climb (adopting), but once I’m done with school and ready for it, I know that I will be a mom. ❤

[@brad8177]

Both my exit interview by my mission President and my welcome home interview with my stake president and YSA bishop: “The Lord expects you to be married within the year, brother, and you need to make that a priority.” Me, 21: “Uhm, I have five dollars and no place to stay. My family moved while I was on my mission and I have no support system.” Church leadership: “God will provide, just obey his will.”

[@SamieLeigh]

It would have been much better if Margi could have led this discussion. Not sure why she didn’t? A lot of patterns you dislike in patriarchy you still perpetuate although I really don’t believe you want to. I know you work against those traditions. And thank you for that. I think you truly care about these women. But Margi absolutely should have led this. And you be the cohost and offer your academic and experiential knowledge there. This was a great panel. Just thoughts from a viewer.

[@cc-hk5ih]

Single Irish lady here almost old enough to be these girls mom well almost. Interesting debate. I do see some parallels even being non Mormon. As all my cousins got married year on year, I was told oh you are next." But I didn't and somehow, subliminaly, I was made feel that Even outside religion in my case Catholic society looks on single people as something of a failure. Many of my friends and family discontinued involving me as years progressed and I didn't find a life partner. I didn't actually choose to be single or not to have kids, but I lived my life as it was as it is being satisfied being me. Many people I knew just settled with people for the sake of being married or having a partner. Society looks on you as being odd or sometimes as being a closeted gay person, which I'm not. My parents had a great marriage and were in love with each other and worked as a fabulous team for almost 63 years, so I had a good example of what a real partnership was, warts and all. It's sad that single people are not given respect and validation by their religion or society. But I hasten to emphasise that being happy as a person rests with yourself and being a strong independent person looking after myself and having good people I chose around me is enough. I enjoy the days I can be free to do my own thing and to live my life my way. That is success, not just hooking a man for the sake of it. Well done, ladies !

[@mylittlebug14]

Yes! I have definitely come around to this point of view, as well... wholeheartedly. That's healthy ❤

[@PPGJAE]

I didn't get married until 25 and it stressed me out so badly that even now, at age 50, I still wake up once in a while from a dream where I'm back in my early 20s on my knees praying, crying and begging HF to lead me to a husband. Some bricks never fall out of that backpack.

[@danaraine91]

Oh that’s awful! The trauma is real!!

[@SantoAtheos]

Wow! Thank you for taking the time to share your experiences with us. The culture really does amplify treating each other as a Means to an End.

[@MizTrial]

Wow! Such an intelligent enlightening conversation! I am non-Mormon and happily married for 24 years but so much of this resonated with me! “I think men are ill-prepared for the liberation and strength of women.” 🙌🏼 preach! Figuring out self before long-term committment is such evolved thinking & so necessary. 💯. You ladies are strong, healthy & beautiful! Wish you all the best! 💜

[@valerietrott2630]

Great episode, all the women are so intelligent, honestly talking about their experiences and no doubt their stories will help and comfort so many people. Well done!

[@monus782]

As one of your non-Mormon listeners I have to say this is one of my favorite episodes so far, in the high demand Catholic parish I was part of my options were even more limited (and I knew it) than they’re today since I wanted to date Catholic women who were just as hardcore and conservative as I was and if dating in general isn’t bad enough it’s probably worse in some of these spaces (it’s not just the Mormons, a while ago there was an article talking about how much of a nightmare dating is for young Catholics but I can’t say how it is for other Christians). That’s one of the reasons why I heavily leaned towards the seminary or monastery (since we had those options as single men) and it’s one of the main reasons why I’ve never been on a date or have had a relationship now that I’m 29 and when I left Christianity as a whole at 24 in late 2019 I was too depressed to try dating and then the pandemic happened. I’ve just been trying to rebuild my life one step at a time since then so I felt I had to put the subject of dating on the back burner since I felt I didn’t have much to offer not just to any potential partner but society as a whole, I guess that makes me part of the statistics you were talking about around the second hour but I’ve looked at the incel community for a while now and I just found many parallels with what goes on there and my cult-ish years so I don’t want anything to do with them. After hearing how single people are treated in the LDS church I probably wouldn’t be treated well at all were I to convert and the fact that I’m Hispanic as well and a bit tanned wouldn’t help me as well. That’s another reason that I remind myself that my upbringing could’ve been much worse as much as I wish I was raised in a secular home.

[@robertb6889]

Mormon dating for men who aren't top-tier like they describe is also a problem. Both guys who are a bit less conventionally attractive or less white is a challenge, and you're guilted for not finding someone and settling down, even if your options and potential is limited. "There's plenty of women, and lying down, they're all about the same, so don't be choosey," was actual advice, and celibacy and being a priest isn't an option. And Mormon racism is an even worse issue. I had a friend who was Dominican and fairly dark-skinned when I was still Mormon, and he repeatedly had girls openly turn him down because of his race saying "I have nothing against it, but my parents would never accept you." Straight up racism.

[@mylittlebug14]

​@robertb6889 I totally believe this, as well. This system doesn't work well for many men and women alike. For some, it really seems to work. It didn't work for me and many I know (both genders)

[@monus782]

@@robertb6889wow that’s pretty messed up, before listening to this episode I had heard that there’s more women than men in the LDS church so at times I wondered why don’t more incels/RedPill type of guys join (since they often want a “TradWife”) until one takes into consideration what you said and that guys who never go on a mission are also looked down upon (at least that’s my impression). Again if dating in general ain’t hard enough already it’s probably worse in some of these religious communities taking these disadvantages into account and that dating outside your religion is frowned upon and discouraged (at least it was in mine implicitly), depending where you live that can severely limit your dating pool (one time I tried to see how many LDS members are in my area out of curiosity and the best result I could find was around 12,000 in my city which has around 600,000 population total).

[@brittneykirk4030]

I am 44, and I attended a family ward as a never-married-no-kids woman for 15 years. I was invisible to that ward. I never had a calling in my own ward, they never asked me to pray or give a talk. The only calling they ever gave me was to go serve in the senior citizen branch in our stake. I might’ve been a good primary teacher, or young women’s teacher, or nursery caretaker, or relief Society leader. But apparently they didn’t value me for any of those roles. I usually sat by myself in sacrament meeting, or sometimes I would ask if I could sit by another married couple. The only people who ever went out of their way to interact with me, were the senior citizen ladies, and bishopric who are basically required to shake everyone’s hand. For 10 years, I didn’t hear a peep from a single visiting teacher, home teacher, or ministering person. I was just nothing to anyone in that ward. I would probably still be faithfully attending alone if I hadn’t learned about church history three years ago.

[@wanderingrenegade771]

Leaders can back right off if a couple is unable or have difficulty having children. I lived this nightmare with my wife. It took me decades to forgive these terrible actions of one leader. We did by miracle have one child. That was also a traumatic experience with leaders. However now widowed I can forgive and did move on from the harm caused to my family. People are unaware of the damage they can cause to others by there actions.This podcast brings a little insight to this situation.

[@margiejcupcakeprincess]

NO IS A FULL SENTENCE

[@mylesmarkson1686]

And what might the noun and the verb be?

[@Renniep132]

I’ve loved this episode so far. I’m right around the same age as all of the participants, and it resonated so well with my experience when I still was at church and in the YSA ward.

[@MrArdytube]

The importance of suppressing women, it is not obvious. Instead of clarifying this reality, most often such questions avoid the topic by providing epistemological denials… ie that the appearance of suppression is actually something else. Imo, it is crucial to maintain focus on what is an objective reality: women are systematically suppressed

[@filamhalohalo]

Thank you all for telling your stories. I can relate to so much of what you’ve gone through. I was in YSA until I was 24. During that time I almost got married twice. The 1st was a flaming narcissist and the second engagement was to an egotistical idiot. My impression of Mormon men was that they feel entitled to take what they want from a woman and that we’re meant to serve them. I know that I’m over generalizing. There are good Mormon men. However, I didn’t come across one. I finally left Utah and eventually found a good man outside the church.

[@mindlesslyhannah]

I hope it’s okay, I want to try answering your questions about women being more outraged for other inequalities in the church than they are about not having the priesthood. My very first thought was would you have rather have had Marge or the priesthood? LGBTQ+ people have neither most of the time while in the church. Secondly, I personally always saw priesthood as unnecessary. When you asked the question I didn’t associate it with the leadership roles. I was more upset about women not being represented in any leadership/decision making roles than I ever was about the priesthood. I believed that if God loved me as much as they said He did that he would help me with whatever I needed even if there wasn’t a priesthood holder available. Typically I only asked for blessings and things to 1 get advice 2 give the man an opportunity to serve like we were taught to do for some reason. PS You might find it interesting that as a member I discussed with a large amount of women that believe women will be given the priesthood too one day. I’ve heard it said that if He could decide to give it to all races He could decide to give it to all genders.

[@mayritaysabel]

I can totally relate to the girl in the grey sweater! Her experience really struck a chord with me, especially when she talked about her past partner's "revelation" from God. I had a similar situation with an ex-boyfriend who converted to the Mormon church. He came to me, claiming he prayed and received confirmation that it was okay for us to have sex before marriage. We were just in high school, and it was surprising to see how naive some people can be about these beliefs. I was genuinely taken aback and didn’t know how to respond at the time. It's fascinating how these experiences shape our perspectives!

[@robertb6889]

A LDS YSA bishop outside Utah/Idaho commented and grilled us men about dating. He had asked all the YSAs how often they went on dates at every interview. He said "1/3 of the women tell me they get asked out so often they don't have time for them all. Multiple dates per week. 1/3 say they go out on a couple dates a year. 1/3 of the women say they never have been asked out on a date in their life." He was trying to tell us to ask out a wider variety of women, but it didn't land, mostly because men had the idea that they needed to only date someone they would marry and that meant never giving a chance to women who didn't immediately seem like the perfect bride. Pretty, attractive, bubbly, and super molly-Mormon without being overbearing. They would filter women out superficially on their own preconceived notions of a perfect Mormon wife. And yes, I was guilty of some of that for a long time in my own dating, until I got to the phase of "whatever, it's not going to work out anyway, so let's throw spaghetti at the wall and see what sticks." And that didn't work either. Interesting to see the other side of this, and thanks to all of the panelists.

[@mylittlebug14]

Well said!

[@iamjustsaying1]

It was brought up toward the beginning of this episode that a 21 year old YSA female wasn't allowed to go to the temple. This is how it was, and probably still is. Women are generally discouraged from going to the temple to take out their endowments until they are getting married or going on a mission. So, many single women wait a long time before a bishop green lights it. It's another inequity in the patriarchal system.

[@oritigra]

that was so cool to watch! thanks to all women who took part in this discussion, y'all are awesome!

[@nolinpowe]

You gotta get me on the show John, at least to be in the next YSA dating Mormon stories one, I got some tea, hot chocolate & diet coke to spill. BYU YSA, UVU YSA & Non Student Utah Mormon based YSA wards (by the way the non student ones, the ones I've been to, people keep to themselves, they're friendly, but they're all in the waiting line to get married) 😂 I'm so glad I moved out when I did. Being a single independent Mormon in Utah is an abomination, but only in Utah 🤣

[@thuvu8605]

One a friend of mine who comes from a broken family and then she joined with them with a beautiful image like what exactly she is talking abt. The concept just gives you a happy illusion of something that you dont have or dream for a long time.

[@mylittlebug14]

I LOVE the poem she shared!!! It describes LDS dating life so perfectly. I would love to see this in print. "Dear Married People." It was so validating to hear her read her poem ❤

[@kellymilnerhalls1723]

When I went to BYU, oral sex was the option that wasn't so "bad" because you can't get pregnant and because the Bishop didn't ask about that in interviews.

[@adrianaecheverri3317]

Another brilliant panel of guests. I loved their individuality and experience. Growing up Catholic has a very similar feel as a woman, but we are pressured to get married or become nuns. There isn't a lot of celebrating women's identity outside of that.

[@brandymulvany8516]

I have the exact same experience with the hysterectomy. I know the feeling you are going thru. It is hard to believe we can't be a biological mom. I wanted kids since I was sixteen and now I can not. 😢 I can't even afford adoption because it is sooo expensive 😫 it is a struggle daily. If anyone would like to reach out and talk about the struggle of infertility i am here.

[@colt40fly]

John, when will you have a panel of YSA men, so you can provide a balanced perspective? I guarantee men have just as many crazy stories dating single mormon women in YSA wards.

[@mylittlebug14]

I am sure that's true 👍

[@Paradisefalls65]

Margi: "Yeah, because i wanted more of that" 😂💀

[@kristinenelson990]

Imagine what it's like to be a man with the burden of being so righteous that you must lead your wife across the veil into the celestial kingdom. I am female and felt the burden of being perfect and following priesthood authority as an LDS young woman, but now that I'm out, I realize there's a huge burden on the men as well.

[@caseyjude5472]

It’s almost as if patriarchy hurts everyone!

[@lindanelson3790]

Please someone give Dana a hug....

[@danaraine91]

🥹🥹🥹

[@zuzumontague]

@@danaraine91 Do you have a puppy? Your deeply personal story was so touching I'd buy you a puppy just to put a smile on your face! You helped open my eyes as to how difficult the dating life can be. Especially in 2024.

[@danaraine91]

@@zuzumontaguehaha I love it-dogs really do make everything better! I have a black mini goldendoodle named North. 🖤

[@mylesmarkson1686]

Only if she offers me up a leg!

[@WasatchSasquatchUtah]

Wouldn't mind seeing the perspective of non-divorcee male single adults (not YSA) now that you've heard the female YSA perspective. Everyone has a different perspective...After further watching, I need to stress that most LDS guys do not do what was described further in the video. However, there are a very small percentage of guys who can attract whom they wish and it seems most women will decide to let these specific guys into their lives. Since you have maybe 90% of women letting maybe 10% (the same guys they all are trying to date) in the door, you get this constant chorus of women thinking most LDS men are behaving so inappropriately. No, they just are dating the 10% that are. That may be slightly exaggerated to make a point, but not much if at all...Sorry have to also add, from a male perspective I've heard it said that women these days were taught what to expect from a guy but not really how they are to treat a guy respectfully. So just food for thought there as well.

[@mylittlebug14]

I think it just feels wrong and unfair to everyone to be asked to choose from this very specific and smallish dating pool, women and men alike. And the pressure to marry and to do so asap is messed up. The LDS Church has no business controlling our personal lives this way. That's all.

[@mylittlebug14]

I get your point though 👍

[@jessicawalburger2541]

Having dated a wide variety of LDS men, I have to disagree. The sexual abuse problem in the church also disagrees. It's natural to be defensive about this type of thing, but it's important to believe the experiences of women.

[@mylittlebug14]

​@jessicawalburger2541 I definitely dated more than one LDS guy who didn't seem to have a clue about proper physical boundaries & didn't seem to care when I was uncomfortable about their advances. Not all were like this, but I certainly experienced it.

[@WasatchSasquatchUtah]

@@jessicawalburger2541 Actually, part of the implication of my comment is that I believe sisters. However, I am attempting to illustrate that the percentage of guys that do that very likely seems significantly higher because women seem to let more aggressive guys into their lives or guys that are in the top ten percent or above their own league on some level with more willingness if even they think they are still practicing scrutiny. My point is there are many brethren (almost certainly a majority) that would never do that and there has to be a reason why women report so many doing it. I submit that part of it is because women are in contact with many of the wrong guys. Some will go as far to say it's 90 percent of women trying to date the top 10 percent of guys while the rest are ignored. If we did a graph or chart of all the guys out there it would show the same few guys getting the attention to even be in a position to do that while the vast majority aren't even interacting with women these days due to rejection, etc. They're just off minding their own business while these few guys are still giving us all a bad rap. For what little it's worth, I've been in YSA and adult singles wards my entire adult life, almost three decades, many wards in Utah. I know such issues with guys is not a public thing, but literally can only think of perhaps three that I have knowledge of out of thousands and thousands of brethren. In singles wards in Utah, among guys that are there every Sunday, you have really good odds. If guys don't behave and it comes to light the bishops ask those guys to not come back and moves their records out to a family ward.

[@heatherhammersmith8997]

As a GenXer who knew early on that I didn't want to have children, I have mixed feelings about the excellent conversation being had here. On the one hand, I'm super happy to hear younger generations having conversations about childrearing being a CHOICE that needs to be talked about and decisions made about it. On the other hand, I feel like the most common reason why younger gens are having these conversations is more out of necessity, due to the vastly increased difficulty doing it, fiscally and otherwise. I just wish it was more of a real choice, without all the constraints being put on people. For me, in the 80's "global warming" was just beginning to be a known thing and that made me think the very same thing I heard here, "what kind of world would I be bringing a child into?" My mother's family is Canadian, so I was also well aware of the lacking social supports for families in the US - no universal healthcare, amongst many other things. This made having children a difficult and even selfish choice to make in my mind, being that it was already difficult enough just to support myself. But I also believed I wouldn't be happy with a caretaking life and didn't think that would be fair or healthy for a child either. I was certainly the "odd one out" in my generation and was constantly told ugly things about my choice, like assumptions made that I hated kids, that I didn't know what I really wanted and other untruths, just because people couldn't accept a woman who didn't want kids. People really didn't let up on that kind of BS until I was over 40 either, which often left me feeling as if they didn't see me as a whole woman too. Horrible nonsense!!! Anyway, I sympathize with youth who feel as if children aren't even a viable option for them and I wholeheartedly support paying a bit more taxes in order to help support families. It's so incredibly important for society overall. Single and childless people also need those types of social supports; I don't believe children should have to be caretakers of their elderly parents (as is the case with no proper social supports) but people like myself don't even have that awful imposition as an option. Americans just aren't great as seeing our fellow citizens as community and that desperately needs to change.

[@heatherhammersmith8997]

PS - I also knew I wasn't going to consider marriage until I was at least 30 and that turned into a belief that the institution of marriage was too patriarchal for my tastes. I'm celebrating 20 years together with my partner this year. My guy has told me throughout the years that if he should ever not live up to what I deserve, that I should be able to leave without any complications. He's also told me he falls deeper in love as time goes by, knowing there is no legal obligation keeping us together, tha t we are by pure choice on the daily - serious swoon talk for me LOL!

[@k2peek]

Good discussion. I now would like, in the interest of balance, to see an episode/discussion covering the men's side of this topic.

[@trevanon7450]

I was in the chat when this episode premiered. From what I understand the team is working on that.

[@robertb6889]

Not the shortest mission ever. We had a missionary who spent 3 weeks in the MTC and made it less than a week before going home. I think it was day 2 she requested to go home, and by day 4 she was home.

[@danaraine91]

Oh man that makes me feel better!! 😅 someone else took the record!

[@robertb6889]

@@danaraine91 Honestly - that should be the normal reaction to a mission if you didn't have the extreme pressure to go and stay.

[@boysmomma2]

I loved my time in the Philly YSA ward. I learned to look at the church with some scrutiny.

[@isabelgomezrangel1548]

1:42 Why are they laughing? She described abuse. She didn't consent what he did. Aaaaand she is describing abuse again at 1:48 Oh my gosh someone needs to tell her that's abuse!!!!!!😮 And the bishop saying that's strange??? No, that's abuse and that's not strange!!!!! This woman has to know that's not okey and get therapy

[@susiekaiser1]

Men are at their sexual peak in their early 20s while women peak in their late 40s to 50s. So of course, couples will have different levels of desire. Yea for these young women to speak up in this forum. It was a pleasure to hear their views.

[@k2peek]

34:17, It doesn't matter if you screen for it or not. The nature of the Mormon Stories pool that you're casting that net into has an inherent bias to it that mostly attracts people who've had some negative experience with the church. That makes it so much more likely that anyone who responds to your survey/invitation is going to have a negative experience. It's not as random as you like to think. And btw, this problem is not created by you, John, but by the culture of Mormonism, which is created by thousands and millions of people.

[@jennyelsie]

It would have been an interesting dynamic to have just one female that had been divorced and in the YSA scene for a time. Because I can speak from experience, this adds another layer of complexity to the dynamic.

[@mormonstories]

We did!!! Dana is divorced I believe!

[@mylittlebug14]

Totally agree

[@jennyelsie]

@@mormonstories oh okay! So sorry I didn't catch that. 🤦 Thank you!

[@amandawillis3573]

Divorced with a baby was rough. Our YSA had a nursery every other week!

[@jennyelsie]

@@amandawillis3573 I can certainly imagine!!! I had primary-aged kids at that point, was forced to be in family ward.

[@princessJayNay22]

I was made to feel like something is wrong with me, because i spent 5 and half years in Rexburg Idaho attending Ricks College and Brigham Young University-Idaho, and didn't find a husband. I've had people say but you were in Idaho for 5 and half years. I didn't attend school just to find a husband. I'm 45 and single, i reached mence to society years ago lol. I went on a few dates at school, but nothing came of them. We need to stop making singles feel like there's something wrong with them if they don't marry, because that lingers, at least it has with me. I love the stuck at the airport analogy. It's so true!!!

[@hamishcraig6999]

As a never Mormon (but having boarded with a Maori Mormon woman), I devour these sessions with John and co. I am particularly interested in Mormon doctrine on divorce and remarriage. What are the rules? Is divorce allowed (in what circumstances)? Is remarriage allowed (and approved by the church without sanctions or condemnation)? Does the church support the faithful party divorcing the unfaithful party? Can a divorced and remarried (man) become a bishop etc?

[@rachaelnlala]

Oh honey, you are more than your ovaries and womb! You’re amazing and there is a child out there that is meant to be loved by you and I so hope you find peace and comfort after such a hard thing. I’m almost 40 and don’t plan on getting to have any more babies, but I can relate to how it must feel to completely not have the option to have babies from your own body and I think it’s completely acceptable that you were grieving that loss but I know in my heart you’re strong and capable, and you will find your way out of the grief and into new sunshine ❤

[@OaxacaBaldoRissy]

I am divorce woman of the LDS church been divorced for 5yrs after being married 10yrs my ex husband lied to me in our marriage and it’s was hard

[@exmoextra13]

i loved this panel. thanks for this ❤ i enjoyed hearing different perspectives. i relate to the women saying how the non member guys treated them better. in growing up mormon we were taught mormon guys were the best but i saw how imature they were and it turned me off in my teens which saved me from so many tragic paths. i remember when i fell for a non member and was blown away how he treated me like an equal and like a whole person. never went back to mormon guys and still even the worst non mormon bfs treated me better then the common horrors i hear from women who continued to date mormon men.

[@carolwilson1236]

As a non-Mormon, I find your podcast fascinating. My kids had a lot of fantastic Mormon friends who never pushed their religion. I wiuld like to make an off-topic comment - Sacramento is not an armpit of California. Parts of it are terrible, like other big towns, but most of it is beautiful. My hometown, San Francisco, has become an armpit. I want to stand up for a great place to live and raise a family. 😊

[@jnuneha]

Best panel.. so lovely so lively...❤

[@tawnyachristensen7310]

Awesome panel!

[@jacalineballif9584]

Do you have an episode with single men telling their stories. I know that it is really hard for many single men. I know of several who have never been married and some approaching their 40’s. Thru e had terrible experiences. Some girls can be so shallow and I believe a lot is their upbringing in the church. Even though these young men I know are Eagle Scouts, did well in school, have graduated college, returned missionaries. but are stuck, a lot of the girls want someone who owns their own house and have a great car and a good paying job and it leaves a lot of guys not being able to measure up. There are members who think there is either something wrong with them or they’re gay. It’s led to a lot of depression. I love all your interviews. Please try to get some older single men on here. Keep up the great work.

[@mormonstories]

Ok!

[@mylittlebug14]

Totally agree 👍 and I know men in this situation, as well. It's a lot of pressure for many of them too.

[@jacalineballif9584]

It’s really devastating to the men too, when all their friends are married with children. John, maybe you can hook some on these awesome guys up with these wonderful, free thinking women!

[@robertb6889]

Men are so heavily demonized for staying single and blamed. A single woman is a tragedy, because she was never picked. A single man is a vile sinner and manage to society because he never stepped up to marry the first woman who would say yes. I was pushing 30 and single and it was brutal. My brother is still Mormon and now in his late 30’s, only to have the age change gut his single adult ward yet again. Men don’t get a double message of “maybe you can be happy.” You just get “there is something wrong with you. Why haven’t you found someone.” Racism is also a big thing. Friend was a RM and temple worker. Relatively handsome and good guy, but he was Dominican and dark skinned and got repeatedly turned down due to his race and ethnicity. They said they had no issues but their parents wouldn’t accept him. Men’s side would be interesting.

[@mylittlebug14]

@robertb6889 it's totally not okay what they do to men either. Brutal for some/many, like you said. They are absolutely not allowed to be relaxed in any way. I can see it. I was in singles wards much of my 20s and 30s & I know good guys in their 30s who felt like they'd never find someone. They felt the pressure. All the responsibility is definitely placed on their shoulders for pursuing & catching a woman. And some of the things they say to men in this regard are absolutely verbally & emotionally abusive. I have heard single people in general referred to as "losers" even as I was standing nearby as a single person. Then someone would realize I was there & look at me sheepishly and apologetically. Now I think.. what the hell? Why did I allow people to say such things without speaking up? It's not okay. None of us were losers (male nor female). The system didn't work for us. And maybe some didn't even want to marry... though I suspect many of us did.

[@kaysharogers32]

I'm so glad that my then boyfriend and now husband and I didn't marry when I was in college! College was a time for growth and independence. We now have a growing family, but I'm glad my college years and my marriage didn't overlap and we've been together 13 years.

[@katlizski]

At 18 I moved in a single ward a 30 year old man asked me out and I told him I wasn't interested, he told the other men in the ward I was gay and most of them left me alone my husband moved in he asked me out I was 19 and we were married right before my 21st birthday. The other men in the Ward asked how he did that apparently I wasn't very approachable 😂. I think it was because I was very immature naive and socially awarded.

[@MadDaGiant]

You should totally do an episode on mutual and the horrors people experienced/I experienced. So many non members on there too

[@sperckensiedoitch]

2:36:45 Then, you get married and you’re granted the “rights” and “privileges” of hanging out with the other “married’s,” which amounts to sitting through family ward Elder’s Quorum (primary for “big” people) every Sunday in perpetuity and making yourself an available pawn for the whims of whichever high councilman/bishopric lawyer du jour is running the show in your geographically-determined circle of associates. Fifth Sunday lessons about the inspired nature of the constitution or the insidious influence of modern media. Bland, soul-sucking, personality-less conversations with your pediatric dentist hometeaching companion are your marriage graduate reward.

[@nirvana4132]

Really struggling with the desire to go back to church, but know nothing is going to change. I'm still gonna have those pressures like before.

[@mintyfreshest]

I imagine that a strawman argument that men have with regards to consent is that "so what does that mean, when I'm 5 years into my marriage I still need to ask permission to kiss my wife?" and while it is VERY true that marital rape is real and getting married to someone or being in a long term committed relationship does not give you a blanket pass - consent is something that should absolutely be discussed verbally during the first stages of a physical relationship, but as you get more comfortable with someone and you get to know them better, a lot of that communication becomes non-verbal. Two people who love and respect each other, who have a good understanding of each other because they communicate, should be able to tell whether their partner is into something without them having to say it. Obviously they still can talk about it, but for example 5 years into your marriage if you want to kiss your wife, you should be able to tell by interacting with her if she's in the mood for that or not, and if you think she is and you go in for a kiss and she tells you to stop, that is not necessarily the deal-breaker relationship ender that it would be if you did that on the first date. But if the only thing a woman knows about you is that you tried to kiss her while she was in the middle of a sentence, she obviously won't like you. Just pay attention to their body language, tone of voice, and if you're not sure if they're into it or up for it, just ask. Be up front about your intentions so that everyone can be on the same page.

[@brad8177]

YSA = being a young adult on your own for the first time and being coerced into making high stakes adult decisions despite only ever having been infantilized your entire existence.

[@wanderingrenegade771]

Ty for sharing the encounter of " God told me it's ok if I am with you guy" .

[@rachel-leegeorge3374]

WE LOVE YOU DEAR NORTH CAROLINA!!! AND HOPE YOU RECEIVE THIS GREAT WORD!!! NOWHERE ELSE COULD BE FINER, CAUSE THIS IS WHERE WE COME TO SERVE THE LORDDDD!... or something like that 😅

[@Maryfs1]

My mental health problems have made ever dating something I can't do, and I'm 33 now.

[@AaAaa-t4x]

Two questions. 1. I noticed in Germany, that the people in the church especially the YSA marry only people who are born in the church. Can it be that converts are in disadvantage when trying to find a partner in the church? Here I ask about convert man who is avoided in the YSA dance evenings. 2. Is it possible that Single mothers are given free in the church to marry who they want in the reason she is not approached much in the reason she has children of others? I see in Facebook groups when I go to a mormon dating that I have always single mothers who flirt with me.

[@cassandrabranch1729]

Regarding women & the priesthood, I'm shocked that the fact that early Christianity had deaconess' and early Judaism had female prophetesses & leaders is so unknown. The true facts are fare more important than J Smith's morality problems and should be highlighted on every podcast. This is a central and essential doctrine of Elohiem's Church. Every woman in the church should know the scriptures by heart and recite the passages whenever someone shovels the baloney about "men have always had the priesthood."

[@ValeriePeterson-w5f]

Another great podcast 😅❤

[@andradanielleparrott]

Thanks for sharing your stories