Dave Grossman: A Pseudo-Scientist's Experiment on a Nation

Thank you to / res_editss_ for editing this video! I definitely could not have done this on my own. Check out his page!
0:00 Who is Dave Grossman?
2:50 Midbrain Resistance
3:34 S.L.A.M.
10:43 Grossman vs. History
18:10 Video Games
22:15 Secret Murders
27:25 Trained to Kill
29:32 Sheepdogs
32:36 9/11
35:36 To Kill an Infidel...
39:30 Brainwashing Your Kids
41:27 Counselors As Psychologists
SOURCES:
Grossman’s Work: oceanofpdf.com/authors/lt-col...
kropfpolisci.com/cognitive.gro...
unicornriot.ninja/2018/bullet...
• Dave Grossman: "Bullet...
Grossman Crticism: havokjournal.com/law-enforcem...
www.journal.forces.gc.ca/vo9/n...
Aveni vs. Grossman: www.theppsc.org/Grossman/Main-...
www.theppsc.org/Grossman/SLA_M...
S.L.A.M. Criticism: warchronicle.com/s-l-a-marsha...
www.theppsc.org/Grossman/SLA_M...
gwern.net/doc/history/s-l-a-m...
press.armywarcollege.edu/cgi/...
Gettysburg: www.thevintagenews.com/2016/0...
www.wearethemighty.com/articl...
Video games: www.apa.org/news/press/releas...
royalsocietypublishing.org/do...
www.houstonchronicle.com/loca...
europepmc.org/article/MED/158...
proliberty.com/observer/20040...
www.psychologytoday.com/us/bl...
Sports: www.psychologytoday.com/us/bl...
Drafted: cherrieswriter.com/2019/08/11...
www.nationalww2museum.org/stu...

[@ArmchairViolence]

Let me know what you think about the new editing style and background! Also, help spread this video around, because KZbin demonitized it. I don't care about the money, but I at least want people to SEE the video!

[@maxanderson3733]

I think it’s working for you. Transitions are smooth. No sign of any random “glitches” and I wouldn’t be surprised if there’s a clear quality increase when I go back and rewatch your other videos

[@BeepBoop2221]

You're a little over exposed but that can be tweaked

[@buckcherry2564]

@@maxanderson3733 around the 9:40 area there was as glitch in the top left, but hardly something that affects viewing.

[@abutterYT]

The new style is really nice! Your super exspresive so it's very entertaining to watch. My only gripe would be the lighting your using makes your face way to exposed you probably could fix it in post but fixing the lighting would be my solution. Also consider using the background as a green screen at times showing what your talking about as a set when it isn't an important image but could help set a ton or visual environment. New style reminds me alot of another channel i can't think of. Great video!

[@penrythajanitor4644]

Trouble is sir I can't help thinking this video needs to spread as far as Grossman has and it's not going to Keep doing your thing though, every video of yours I've watched has been a) entertaining and b) well researched which puts them in front of the vast majority of KZbin for starters...

[@hard2hurt]

As a rookie cop, I had a commander give me a copy of On Killing... luckily it did not have a significant impact on me. Great video.

[@adamkay1201]

Amazing what having a level head can get you through.

[@LastStar007]

@@adamkay1201 A bald one too.

[@buckcherry2564]

@@LastStar007 that man is shiney inside and out

[@bob67497]

My dad was a cop, and talked about this pseudoscience with me when I was a kid. It's really funny in retrospect, but also kind of disturbing, because my dad is objectively REALLY smart. Like measurably, his IQ is great, he was a scholar before and during college (full ride to Stanford level shit) and he still bought into this shit. Likely because the whole idea is sucking off cops and acting like they're chosen ones, meant to protect society from evil like some kind of storybook hero.

[@onealjones9039]

I'm grateful for people with common sense and decency such as yourself Sir.. thank you.

[@luzk1031]

This video and Icy Mike's "Why do cops give terrible self defense advice" video are probably the best about this topic. I can't thank you guys enough for educating so many people and helping us develop a better sense of responsibility and justice. You're awesome!

[@antewaso8876]

So true, this was so well presented so well argued makes such good sense, I hope it gets lots of views and ditto for Icy Mike's video and general advice, knowledgeable, sensible, sound thanks both

[@bloodwynn]

I recommend also this video, which is a great supplement to the topic: kzbin.info/www/bejne/pGi1nmaqqrJ5iqs "If the only thing you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail".

[@christianc.christian5025]

It’s particularly relevant that dipshits like Grossman say that *cops* are “protecting the world from the wolves,” seeing as how police almost exclusively deal on the unconvicted/presumption of innocence side of the process. And then when a cop like Derek Chauvin comes along and is pretty obviously due for a murder conviction, those same sHeEP dOgS will keep repeating “innocent until proven guilty” or “he deserves his day in court!!!!1!”

[@Firespectrum122]

Link vid please?

[@chowlie95]

I read Grossman's book when I was in highschool and it's part of what inspired me to get a bachelor's in psychology. Then I met real psychologists and saw some of Grossman's terrible pseudo religious talks. I look back on myself and cringe.

[@pop_popich]

You can spot strong emotional approach in his speeches. Like he infuses fear into listeners. Stating similarities in history is not necessary.

[@_Rezzik]

Looking back at yourself and cringing is the highest honor you can achieve. It means you've grown as a person. Well done!

[@christopherconard2831]

I've used his book, and a few articles he's written/been interviewed for as source material. Hopefully no one uses anything I concluded in my writings. But that is the problem with bad research. If you don't question the sources and blindly "follow the science" you only multiply the original error.

[@verbumtech]

@@christopherconard2831, that's the whole point: if you 'blindly "follow the science"', you're not making science

[@Mightylcanis]

@@verbumtech Yeah, "blindly following the science" has turned "science" into a new-age religion. "Scientists" are their gods, "science communicators" are their prophets.

[@railfan_3371]

Grossman is so right, I accidentally played Arma 3 and all of a sudden I found myself in the Hague charged with countless war crimes.

[@MrJstorm4]

​@@teastrainer3604 they are famous?

[@MrJstorm4]

@@teastrainer3604 there's a nearly a 200 year time frame, not all wrote books but the ones who did often focused on different topics, and some worked in entirely different fields. No I'm not being disingenuous, I don't know what you're talking about.

[@boreragnarok4680]

@@teastrainer3604 retard nazis roam the weirdest parts of the internet...

[@ArmchairViolence]

@@teastrainer3604 Lumping Gloria Steinem into the same list as Hugh Hefner should have been your first clue that you're completely detached from reality. There are plenty of things to hate about Dave Grossman without being antisemitic. Banned. P.S. - Grossman probably isn't even Jewish, you impotent troglodyte. He's a fundamentalist Christian and 'Grossman' is a German surname from lower Saxony.

[@mikewlazlinski4309]

​@@ArmchairViolenceWow, resorting to the actual conditioned response. Maybe he was saying white people. Doubt it but you literally went to insults without a direct proof of any transgression.

[@ObliqueReference]

Back when I was in the army, the Grossman book was just starting to make the rounds. And a cursory knowledge of medieval warfare let you know that it was almost certainly bullshit. Then when he got super famous a couple years later blaming Doom for the Columbine killings, I knew for a fact he was full of shit. Then he starts cropping up with his "shoot first never ask questions cuz only gay boys ask questions" style of police training, my heart sank. Americans love a bullshit artist.

[@josephperkins4857]

So a NUTTER psychologist F*&^Ked America up? No surpirse there

[@goodyeoman4534]

Then you weren't paying attention. The point is that there is a significant link between violent acts and an unhealthy obsession with video games. That is not the same as saying video games cause people to be violent. I thought this was just basic stuff but no one seems capable of grasping the scientific method these days.

[@darklyripley6138]

@@goodyeoman4534 1, Provide evidence for that. 2, There’s a link between violence and unhealthy obsession with anything. By definition the obsession is unhealthy, and mentally I’ll people are more likely to have unhealthy obsessions. That says more about the person than the thing they’re obsessed with. There was a mass shooter obsessed with My Little Pony. Should we say there’s a link between violence and obsession with My Little Pony?

[@davidegaruti2582]

​@@darklyripley6138also correlation isn't causation ... It may be that pepole obsessed with violence flock to videogames , I doubt tetris , chess or animal crossing players are violent , And if they are i doubt there is correlation between the two factors ...

[@darklyripley6138]

@@davidegaruti2582 Tetris is the best selling video game of all time. So just from that fact alone, there’s likely to be more violent people who play tetris than violent games. Even if you take the hypothesis that violent people play video games, there’s still no evidence for that either. We’ve been studying this for 20 years. It’s astonishing people still believe this nonsense.

[@SwordAndWaistcoat]

This video essay is unbelievably based. I'm kinda amazed you went as far as you did pointing out how terrifying these ideas are, but I'm glad you did.

[@farkasmactavish]

Wow, he really read his last name and decided that was what he wanted to be.

[@paulpolito2001]

Lmao. Dead on

[@Trebor6127]

I tried to read 'On Killing' a few years back and I stopped after about 20 pages. Even in this relatively short fragment I noticed several silly statements and mistakes that a serious author shouldn't make. One of the silly assertions he made was that the reason why firearms replaced bows and crossbows was that they generated smoke and made more noise. After reading that, I concluded that it would be much better to spend my time on something else than that book. That fits with what you said in the video - that Grossman uses his cursory knowledge of history to make wild and unsubstantiated claims.

[@ArmchairViolence]

Bruh, I remember reading that in the book and having the same reaction! Imagine actually publishing a take that dumb. And then people believe you!

[@BiggityBoggity8095]

@@ArmchairViolence the thing here is that we’re assuming Grossman writes his material for a good faithed audience with critical thinking skills. He most certainly doesn’t.

[@fred6494]

Thats one of the worst Takes I have ever heard😂

[@theduck3072]

Having not read the book, this comment literally just tells me most policemen are too stupid for their own good. The moment I read a sentence as stupid as claiming the reason we switched to guns was because they made smoke and more noise I would seriously reconsider my faith in the superior who gave me the book saying it's intellectually sound.

[@steven401ytx]

Early guns were not as effective at killing as bows were because of the accuracy and fire rate. Yet they were still used instead of bows because they scared the enemy with their explosions. That's where the murder man got his idea.

[@imjustsam1745]

Speaking purely as a dude who's made his living outside and is MUCH more into dogs than any of his other interests the analogy always seemed pretty preschool. It demonstrates a fundamental misunderstanding of what sheep dogs do, alert an armed human to the presence of wolves by soaking up damage until the shepherd gets there or the flock gets away. Kangals working in packs have been known to body the smaller eurasian wolf in Anatolia but, in North America the livestock guardians are there for smaller dumber predators than the North American Timber Wolf, mostly the guardian dogs just have puppies with them. I'm pretty sure I know cattle dogs with more balanced and honest understandings of the world than this dude. (Literall dogs, red heelers)

[@DE-GEN-ART]

DONT LET THIS GUY ALONE WITH YOUR DOGS lol im just kidding man i love my dogs too

[@jamesn3122]

Gotta get some llamas and alpacas, they'll kick wolf ass. Imagine thumb-like 40 yr old grizzled cops "I'm a Llama, protecting the flock"

[@jesshorn257]

@@jamesn3122 llamas may take on coyotes...a pack of timbers is different as they hunt moose

[@zintheusivanovich6307]

Not the first breakdown I've seen of Grossman but certainly the best. More criticism of him and his ilk is needed from perspectives that are not explicitly leftist. The goal should be to reach Grossman's own target audience with the relevant counterarguments. For that purpose Marxist critique (or whatever) is at best useless because it will likely alienate nearly everyone who has ever even considered a career in law enforcement. At worst it could be counterproductive by giving the ACAB crowd further justification for their own "us vs. them" mindset leading to more violent clashes.

[@Dmobley9901]

I find it ironic that the analogy used to dehumanize potential criminals assigns them the role of "wolves", you know, the animals that were hunted to the brink of extinction and fear-mongered into being monstrosities and symbols of the devil himself, only for people to realize that they were just animals trying to survive that actually played an important role in keeping their environment in balance, that actually only attack in the most dire of circumstances.

[@baka030hydroid]

I do like this comparison, though I do have one issue with it Criminals add no value to their environment. The goal should be to create a society that doesn't create criminals, not to embrace criminals as the norm

[@Dmobley9901]

@@baka030hydroid Fair enough, I was never arguing that criminals are good for environment. Just that they're people like anyone else. Like I said, wolves were often mischaracterized as being malicious when the reality is they were just trying to survive. A lot of people that become criminals simply become that way due to not seeing any other alternative that appeals to them. Crime runs rampant, not simply because there are people who are innately evil, but because people end up in bad environments, some are born in crime, or abusive households, or they can't find any other way to feed themselves or their families, some genuinely don't know any better, and other find it's the best path they could find, life is many things, but fair isn't one of them. Crime fills the gaps that society doesn't. When the poor can't afford food, they steal it. When they can't afford healthcare, they turn to the black market to self-medicate. When police make people feel unsafe, gangs form to charge for "protection". I'm by no means some sort of advocate for anarchy, but time and time again, research and evidence shows that crime is almost never the root "problem", it's a maladaptive "solution" to temporarily cover the root cause when people aren't taken care of. It's just a known fact, the sweetest lap dogs can become attack dogs if abused enough, they may even look like wolves. And if people are in pain and not being taken care of, they may self medicate with other substances like alcohol or worse. It's just like with legalized marijuana, it's always had medical applications, but because of taboos and gaps in society, that role was filled by drug dealers and crime lords, now it's dispensaries and doctors. You'll never "eliminate" criminals entirely, instead the best approach morally and scientifically has been shown to understand the true causes, and allow a place for people's needs in society so that, in so far as we can control, people stay safe and don't become malicious actors. Around two or three centuries ago, it'd be illegal to free slaves, yet there were people who did it anyways, showing that while criminals are neither inherently good or evil, they naturally take the spaces where society draws the line and resents part of itself. A hundred years ago the part resented was race, round about 50 years ago it was drugs, then it was sexuality, and gradually more and more of the resented parts of society have become accepted parts of society, because that which we reject becomes resentful of a society that rejects them, and those we accept will gain access to resources in a society that actually gives a damn about them, or at least tries to.

[@ChucksSEADnDEAD]

​@@Dmobley9901 As someone who has worked in stores for a few years too many, most of the food stolen is high value items. The food is not stolen for consumption but for resale. My store managers wouldn't give a shit if you were there to steal cheap food. The problem is that those who shoplift are in the "in for a penny, in for a pound" mentality so they are never there for sustenance - just pure profit. It's the big tomahawk or t-bone packs, the XXL frozen fish packs, the expensive coffee cartridges, etc which have a good street value for resale. Now I couldn't give a damn if the company loses money, but I have to do a security guard's job to prevent theft while also getting absolutely no protection and restricted in my ability to intervene. Do you understand the conundrum of being expected to stand there and handle physical threats while facing both disciplinary action from the company and trouble with the justice system if the threats become action? These people are not freeing slaves. They're naking a living on crime while I work a honest job. Stop the false comparisons.

[@keerf255]

​@@baka030hydroidWe should ideally have a society that creates a just environment and provides justice for those affected by evil bastards, which we only have for 'direct crime' today.

[@farkasmactavish]

@@keerf255 So you're saying throw the billionaires in prison.

[@3nertia]

Also reminds me of the adage, "Just because I'm peaceful doesn't mean I've forgotten how to be violence" - intelligent (and emotionally mature) people realize that violence should always be a last resort but they also realize that someone may force violence to be necessary "Violence isn't the answer, but when it is, it's the *only* answer" - Tim Larkin

[@jaketrovillion6159]

Great video. I like the idea of you branching out and covering other violence related topics and not just martial arts. Also, props on the increased production value!

[@aaronfutch2715]

I agree with this 100%! I really enjoy your other martial arts related videos, but this philosophical/thought-provoking topic is an even rarer contribution to public discourse. Please do more of these.

[@InsanityInc100]

Gotta say, you really went miles above and beyond my expectations with this one. And I was already a big fan so my expectations were pretty high to begin with. It’s also crazy refreshing to hear this level of rational, reasoned, and empathetic discourse in the fighting community in general

[@ShengFink]

Tbh that goes for any community on the internet. I am consistently surprised by the quality of not only the videos but the discussion in the comments. A big part of that is probably the relatively small audience but still it’s nice to see.

[@maxanderson3733]

Stuff like this and our short discussion about Myostatin-related muscle hypertrophy makes me glad I found this channel! I can see why you had to take your time with this video. It’s was absolutely worth the weight! This might be your best work yet man! Great job!

[@gw1357]

That was really well done. Go Heels. The irony of doing that entire thing in a Batman shirt should also not be lost. I think there's a couple other factors/arguments that are taken as quasi-confirmations of Grossman's ideas or, at least, are sort of fellow travelers for Grossman. The first is the idea that ever more capable wolves are just over the horizon. Both the media (because they make money selling excitement), "experts" like Grossman (because it supports their ideology), and kit manufacturers (because they make money selling weapons, gadgets, etc.) trumpet anomalous events where criminals exhibit an exceptional degree of potency (whether that's planning, weaponry, armor, skill, ruthlessness, etc) like Columbine (1999) and the North Hollywood Shootout (1997). Because these events are shocking and visually compelling (especially when captured live on video), they obtain a level of attention and credence that outstrips their real impact. The second is that these same interests also look at foreign events -- Chechen violence in Russia (ex. Beslan), insurgency in Iraq, cartel violence in Mexico, the ISIS violence in Europe (ex. Charlie Hebdo) -- and argue that these portend bad things for America without any consideration of how different the conditions in these other places are. (I guarantee they'll say the same thing about the Hamas massacres now happening in Israel). This of course drives the sheepdog narrative and especially the need to "prepare." That's not to say that these things are always completely irrational or unfounded -- for example, cartel violence is on the rise in some communities in specific places -- but like your point about the data, its a case where the narrative -- not thoughtful multi-factor analysis -- is supreme. Lastly, I'll add this: Grossman twists a couple of human truisms that need to be recaptured and restored to their proper perspective. First is the fact that some people -- whether they are born with it or develop it over time -- do indeed have a talent for violence and/or an inherent courage in the face of physical risk and that these things are charismatic. People with the talent want to be told that they're inherently good -- instead of being told that (whether you get it from the Bible or comic books) that with talent (in any shape) comes responsibility. People without talent want to associate with talent and Grossman's work gives them the vocabulary and narrative to buttress poseur behavior. The second is that courage in the face of physical risk ("the sheepdog response") should be celebrated and cultivated. Societies need it. But they need it measured with reasons. Instead of the sheepdog narrative, teach your kids that "the nation that separates its scholars and its warriors will have its thinking done by cowards and its fighting done by fools" and/or that "a man should master both the spear and the lyre."

[@ArmchairViolence]

The "ever more capable wolves are just over the horizon" is ABSOLUTELY something Grossman. Good call! It's probably the biggest point I didn't touch on in this video.

[@stevenscott2136]

The gun community is FULL of this. "What, this gun only holds 18 shots?? What if I'm attacked by 19 ninja gangbangers!?". Or the "take every training class there is and go to the range for six hours every weekend" crowd. They're more likely to die on the highway to the class than they are to get in any situation requiring actual skill.

[@ShengFink]

@@stevenscott2136always gotta keep a spare 100 round drum just in case you have to put down a small army twice

[@superbroadcaster]

David Grossman is actually the push I "needed" to join the army, after reading his book On Combat, which I deeply enjoyed as relatively unbiased physiological analysis, avoiding his philosophical pinings. I've met too many people that have a main character complex, sometimes larping with punisher merch or the guys that just straight up wanted to be allowed to kill people. I feel Grossmans big harm to humanity is policing, where the "enemy" is your community members.

[@christophervelez1561]

Dude how is this not getting more likes and watches?! This is such a fascinating topic. I read on killing at the Air Force Academy and my mom, a detective in Florida, got a signed copy of his book. I’ll need to reread this book now after watching this video!

[@ArmchairViolence]

Unfortunately, KZbin has demonetized the video. So it's getting killed in the algorithm.

[@itzakehrenberg3449]

I read, "On Killing" at the Air Force Academy.

[@christophervelez1561]

@@ArmchairViolence dammit how? There nothing out of KZbin’s guidelines!

[@christophervelez1561]

@@itzakehrenberg3449 what year? I was a 13 grad!

[@ArmchairViolence]

@@christophervelez1561 I know! I even tried a version without the war crimes montage, and it STILL didn't like it! And it doesn't tell you what part of the video it doesn't like, so it's impossible to know.

[@dasglaubichnich]

You can't see it but I stood up and applauded once the vid was over. Amazing work buddy!

[@darklyripley6138]

I teach law enforcement as part of my job. I’ve worked with departments all over the country, as well as various militaries. Including some that have gone through Grossman’s “training”. I am happy to see someone talk about him in this light. There are a few things you touched on(and didn’t touch on) that I want to comment on. The first is the fact that Dave has never killed anyone before. Matter a fact, he has never even seen combat. He doesn’t have a CIB. He makes statements like “Sex after killing is the most intense sex you will ever have!”. How does he know this? He has never killed before. And I doubt he’s ever even had sex before. As for his impact, I think you are overstating it. To be clear, he has made an impact. I have had numerous departments contact us to train them after they had some sort of contact with Grossman. It almost seemed like they wanted us to clean up after him, and provide the proper training and support that they should’ve got from Grossman. I don’t think I’ve ever had any department say “Teach us how to kill without thinking”. That’s just not something I have seen. I have heard many criticisms from officers who have attended his seminars. It ranges from them feeling like they were scammed, to not liking to religious overtones. In my experience, actual firearms and force on force training will do more to help police feel comfortable using lethal force, than any amount of “mindset training”. You don’t want to teach people to kill. Anyone can do that. You want to teach them competent, responsible, and capable use of deadly force. I don’t know if you can tie any unjustified police killings to Grossman. There are only a small handful of unjustified police killings per year, and even is an officer in one of said cases attended a Grossman seminar, I don’t believe that’s enough to justify declaring that there is causation. I can go on for days about this, my experiences, and my thoughts about Grossman, and training various police and military personnel(and if you have any questions, be it about Grossman, or training LE/Mil, I’m happy to answer), but there’s one thing I really want to talk about. Something that I think is actually sick, and detrimental to the mental health of others. He believes that not only should you not feel bad for killing, but that you should enjoy it, and revel in it. This is dangerous. Because there is no “wrong” reaction or feelings after killing. They only become “wrong” when it negatively affects your life. I did some time overseas, and work with guys who have spent years in combat. There is no “right” or “wrong” feeling after killing. If you feel no guilt, that’s fine. If you feel guilt, open up and get help. If you enjoyed it, that’s fine. No two people experience this trauma alike. So he is stigmatizing many of us for experiences and emotions that are out of our control. I know guys who didn’t think they had an issue until being told “You shouldn’t feel like that”, or “You should be feeling this”. The amount of damage this thinking has done is astounding.

[@ArmchairViolence]

I think measuring Grossman's impact is really hard, because most of it is indirect. The sheepdog thing has taken on a life of its own and I've heard it repeated by people that have never heard of Grossman. I've only looked into the veteran and law enforcement communities from the outside, but I see Grossman-esque ideas pop up all the time. I would argue that the damage goes beyond the criminally unjustifiable killings by cops. Because there are a lot of killing that get ruled as "justified" that simply did not have to happen if the officer had had better training and a better mindset. That's why I believe this kind of thinking does even more harm than people immediately realize. But I do think you raise an interesting point about Grossman stigmatizing people. For all his talk about helping people to deal with killing, he is still presenting a way that you "should" feel. I hadn't really thought about that. Is there an ideological replacement for the "sheepdog" theory? Like, do more competent training organizations use a different mental model to think about military and law enforcement in society? Is that usually the "guardian mindset" or are there others?

[@darklyripley6138]

@@ArmchairViolence But again, how do we know if Grossman’s “mindset” was the cause of a shooting, and not a different factor? I keep track of every OIS that happens, and there are so many variables, that I would not feel comfortable even placing a fraction of it on his behalf. I wish I could put blame on him, but I can’t. I don’t know if a different mindset can take the place of the “sheepdog” mindset. But I can tell you what we teach LE. We focus on taking as many variables out of a police interaction, so as to avoid violence altogether. To seek out the problem at hand, and to solve it. This means you cannot go into every interaction with an “us Vs them” mindset. Every situation is different, so you have to come at it from a different point of view. In regards to pure violence, if you want to know the honest truth, you don’t actually need to teach mindset on this. You can teach people how to properly use violence, and how to responsibly do so, and they will fall back on said training. You don’t need to “desensitize” them, or get them “comfortable” with killing. But those who do perpetuate violence, need to be protected. Like I said, telling people they are experiencing emotions the “wrong way” is highly damaging. I have had to switch counselors twice do to them telling me how I should feel. It wasn’t until I found someone who had also seen combat that I learned how to properly handle my own emotions. It’s always the people who have never experienced this trauma that tell you how you should or shouldn’t feel. Part of me wonders what Mr Grossman’s experience would be if he ever had to take a life. Would he feel as he says you should? Or would he react in a “negative” way? I hope that if it ever came to that, he would realize how wrong he is.

[@rddragonman]

​@@ArmchairViolenceidk man, it kinda seems like you might doing a bit of fear mongering yourself. "Davis Grossman is turning the police into a militarized force of unthinking killers". And then if people say that unjustified police killings are rare the response is that you think bad shootings are ruled justified a lot, which I can't do much with. Maybe that point needs it's own video. I have said myself that they signed up for a dangerous job and they just blast anytime they get spooked, but it's also hard to armchair quarter back and tell cops that they should have calculated this or that differently, or that their mindset was wrong in these brief moments where their lives are potentially in danger. Don't get me wrong, David Grossman sounds like a retard, I agree with what you said about him, and the first time heard the sheepdog stuff I thought it was the cringiest edgelord shit I had ever heard. I'm not a hardcore thin blue liner, but I do think you're painting the cops as a scarier, more oppressive institution than they are a bit here.

[@ArmchairViolence]

@@darklyripley6138 Certainly it's impossible to put a hard number on it. But I've seen handful of very similar situations that had drastically different endings due to the officer's mindset. And there are always a lot of variables, but I'm sure you've seen OIS where the officer was clearly the product of bad, escalatory training. Now, how MANY of these situations would have been changed with different training? Impossible to know for sure. And it's impossible to accurately measure Grossman's impact on the field. And it's entirely possible that the mindset Grossman teaches would have been invented even if Grossman was never born. BUT the massive success and popularity of his work means I would be VERY surprised if erasing Grossman from history didn't have a tangible effect on law enforcement. Though I admit I have no way of proving that without a time machine lol Not going in with an "us vs. them" mentality is good and important. Especially for LE. The not needing to desensitize them makes sense. I guess we do the same thing for martial arts. We teach people HOW to hurt someone, and then they do it. Very few people need 'mindset training' to punch someone. I think Grossman acknowledges that people can feel any number of things, and that his training conditions them to feel better things. Although, if HE ended up feeling negatively, I think that would just be good evidence that his training doesn't do anything.

[@darklyripley6138]

@@ArmchairViolence That’s what I was getting at. If he killed someone, and ended up feeling negatively, his entire work would be called into question. He would in a way be “patient zero”. You can’t train people how to feel after experiencing trauma. I know guys who have killed a lot of people. One in particular went through a mental breakdown years after retiring. He was ok while experiencing trauma. He was fine for years after he retired. But it “caught up with him”, and he finally had to experience and deal with said emotions. This is why I think Grossman is dangerous. Saying “Be happy you killed the bad guy” will only delay real psychological responses. Robert O Neil(Former DEVGRU Operator) is going through something similar. He said “When I was young, it was normal. It was normal to kill people. It was normal to go into people’s houses and kill people. Sometimes they are with their families. In bed with their wives. But we still kill them. It got to a point where it was normal. More kills, the cooler you are. It’s not normal. It’s not normal to kill people like that. And now those ghosts haunt me” Here is a man who Grossman would put on a pedestal as the type of person every soldier and cop should be. And he is now experiencing all that trauma. This isn’t fun stuff. Grossman makes a joke out of the struggles that a lot of us have been through. I can say this. I have seen two departments that openly teach Grossman type ideology. They even had little tips that they would give to new officers to increase the odds of ending up in a shooting. Things like standing in front of a car, and standing so you can get your hips over the hood when the suspect floors it. That way you can use deadly force, and not get run down and caught under the vehicle. Another one was to either not use your weapon light in certain situations, so you can claim the suspect was doing something that cannot be seen on the bodycam. I’ve also heard different ways to obscure the bodycam intentionally. Both departments I heard these practices from, had gotten some type of training from Grossman. I have yet to see these actually be used by those departments. But I figured I should mention it.

[@anti1training]

Oh my gosh I was thinking the same thing about law enforcement! I love being validated by my favorite armchair researcher! 😁

[@justas423]

Your use of scientific papers is so enjoyable. Not only does it make the video super educational, it also becomes a great source of sources to use in debates or education.

[@Toxicgamerdog]

nichijou pfp spotted

[@hamstermk4]

The "three types of people," remind me of the Team America movie. I hadn't realized what it was satirizing until now. This is one of your better videos, I hope it spreads widly.

[@pop_popich]

Yes. That speech and Zootopia came to my mind.

[@amare2657]

The editing and video quality has gotten way better. Good stuff my man 💯

[@elchinoguerito8915]

This is the danger educated and great oral speakers have. Their skills and background give them credibility, how they speak and how they present information thats digestable, makes sense for common ppl to grasp, and no chance for rebuttal

[@AnamFiain]

I’ve been enjoying your videos on martial arts culture and technique but this was just next level. Thorough, well articulated, passionate, reasoned. As someone who’s been subjected to the kind of abuse this mentality creates in our cops (but has also encountered officers who don’t buy into it) I’m so glad someone with experience in violence brought this to light. Thanks, man.

[@MisterJayEm]

Thank you so much for compiling this information and posting this video. So well done.

[@tylwyth]

Incredible work here, thorough and engaging. Thank you for the effort!

[@christianc.christian5025]

Excellent video, man. I’ve been a viewer for a while and still, I was surprised at how much this kept including and detailing.

[@grimcity]

This was incredibly information dense and an excellent surprise as far as subject matter. Brilliantly done... it felt like five minutes went by. I've definitely seen this mentality in some LEOs I've worked with and am related to.

[@mr-iz8cx]

I'd never heard of him. Thanks for publishing this. Always interesting to hear about social conditioning. Ill do a bit of research

[@lamardowling637]

Some of your best work yet! I love the depth you went to here

[@MrKurayami]

For me, attributing violent acts to video gaming is like saying wristlocks work in a knife attack because very few individuals successfully used them in these knife attacks. It's just funny in my opinion.

[@chriwa6830]

This is so well researched, awesome to the point and so incredibly important!! Very, very well done!! 👏👏👏

[@ike804]

Genuinely fantastic analysis once again. Would love more long form videos in this fashion.

[@reidwithoutacause]

Always love your well researched videos

[@A_levs]

Thank you for this awesome high quality content. Deserves way more subs and views!

[@adriansibucao5162]

Throroughly enjoyed this video essay coming from one of my favorite martial arts KZbinr. The visuals and editing style is distinct and engaging without being too cliche and distracting. Most importantly you bring light to a topic I've never knew about in an informative and objective way (damn, I can't even imagine making a 17 page script). Liked and subscribed coming from a sheepdog 😎

[@malkomalkavian]

That was great, and must have been a task to write, perform, and edit. Well done, and thank you :)

[@TheSinsOfAvarice97]

I'm so ready I have like 12 hours of travel this will be a good start

[@kennygrace4335]

Can't wait to see your next vid. Ive never heard of Grossmam before but I have heard of some the things that come from him.

[@bidkt1995]

I remember being in the Marine Corps and On Killing was on the list of books you should read to get promoted. I internalized a lot of what was in that book and even taught it to my Marines. After a cop killed a guy the news should Grossman's work in a negative light I realized he was full of crap.

[@holywaterbottle3175]

Every time i hear sayings in the style of "there's two kinds of people in this world" I always remind myself of the grand universal truth; "Everything in the universe is either a potato or not a potato" Checkmate Grossman, you not potato

[@leventaksakal5]

This essay format is the best. Thanks

[@appalachiananarchist]

Great to see you using your knowledge to counter this crap. Keep it up man, great content.

[@joshdobbin]

I followed your channel because you have really smart & fun takes on combat sports & fighting, which have all been great. But this content is FANTASTIC. Seriously: stellar, wonderful work. Thank you.

[@sunte91]

This video was very well put together. Impressive 👏🏻

[@kareemlayne9258]

Great video and respect on the honesty definitely says a lot about the quality of your character.

[@metrolinamartialarts]

I knew nothing about this man, but I'll help coach you in the Denny's parking lot.

[@MrTooEarnestOnline]

This is an important video. I’m surprised to see a video like this here. Thanks my dude.

[@nuggettenugette3625]

Great video as always

[@ArcasCorricol]

how many dillmans out of 5 would you give this guy?

[@ArmchairViolence]

Great question, but I don't think I can accurately rate him because all the points of comparison are martial artists. I would argue that anyone purporting grand theories of violence should be measured in "grossmans." Nice black lantern profile pic by the way. I love DC comics

[@JFolo-gr8dw]

Fantastic work: researched, solid deconstruction of arguments, and evidence presented to the audience. I have an interest in martial arts, but the community has a large overlap with a lot of unsavory types; it's valuable to enjoy the sport without it packaging it with a destructive ideology. I wish this had hundreds of thousands of views! Please keep it up! I think the best thing you could do for reach is a collab, response video, or invite a streamer to watch it. Depending on how direct you want to be, I'm sure there are podcasts you could be a guest on.

[@Daugust77]

Dude, I love your videos. Keep doing what you're doing

[@TheDOS]

Thank you for putting this together excellent work

[@BigBoyBlue]

Question. As a civilian outsider who has no context on this subject. What exactly am I supposed to be walking away with? Or What is the hope that you have I to do with this knowledge? Your argument was brilliant. I just want to make sure I'm not being too simple with my only conclusion being "Grossman is bad."

[@ManDuderGuy]

Grossman isn't bad. It's just that his work has had more influence than it should have.

[@ArmchairViolence]

It's mainly to help create some cultural pushback against the "sheepdog mentality." I've seen plenty of civilian outsiders get sucked into it as well, so this video is intended to be a kind of mental vaccine against Grossman's nonsense.

[@christopherconard2831]

Don't automatically trust an expert just because they are an expert. A bad idea introduced to any system (Law Enforcement, Government Foreign Policy, Tax Policy, Business, etc) and followed unquestionably can cause much bigger problems down the line. Aesthetic design trends, like tailfins on cars, can look weird in hindsight. But did little more than waste some steel. But a faulty trend in something like military or law enforcement training can have devastating effects on a large number of people.

[@kittencaboodle8124]

not even a topic i was interested in but this was such a fun watch i enjoyed it all the way through

[@paavohirn3728]

Thank you for this important video!

[@maxzhao8331]

very interesting and informative video! Incredibly well made!

[@pedrokenzo4670]

Dude, you are the man! Like there is nobody doing content to that level in fighting sports, you are like the Folding Ideas of fighting

[@Priapos93]

Worth watching through the end. Afterwards, I just sat watching the screen for a while

[@jeice13]

The bit about sheep being nice and avoiding bad behaviour is nonsense. Lots of people only behave well because they know there are consequences for hurting people. Id estimate half of people are kind of evil and just have more incentives to follow the rules

[@Drikkerbadevand]

I think one large reason among many for more soldiers firing their weapons now than in past decades, is because right now it is largely a volunteer and professional force, not draftees.

[@gwashington65]

Excellent video sir!!

[@Auctorion]

One thing's for sure: you did not hesitate to kill David Grossman's arguments.

[@wojciechsawicki4733]

I don't know of a youtuber who's better at formulating their thoughts in such a cohesive way

[@KennyKenKin]

I just read this book and I'll say this video is right on time!

[@OnceAJay]

that's very well made. good work!

[@crazygreek6341]

What a good video man, well researched and presented. The white backround was just a bit aggressive to the eyes. But besides that your videos are improving keep up the good work

[@3nertia]

I once heard someone say "Thinkers before shooters" and I think that should apply *even more* to law enforcement heh The problem is that it's a numbers game and the system needs bodies, not necessarily brains heh

[@LastStar007]

Gen. James Mattis liked to say "engage your brain before you engage your weapon". And he was talking to military personnel operating on foreign soil, not jumpy cops.

[@hogie1259]

Funny that you bring up all these issues now. I was one of Grossman’s most vocal detractors 20yrs ago which quickly found me being ostracized from the training industry. He is most definitely a fraud and I find it unbelievable that almost 2 decades after retirement, people are still talking about this glorified used car salesman .

[@truecrimeradio1488]

Fantastic video I’m sure a ton of work went into it!

[@LandonErp]

If this is a new strain of content for you its quite good. Hope you're not totally burned out on your old content style as I think you bring something unique to the MMA sphere of KZbin but this is a solid effort and a solid direction if it becomes the new norm

[@jedijudoka]

Great work, yet again.

[@leoa155]

You're leaning in to your essay side. I like that

[@Schwitzig996]

Not a fan of your other videos but this was a masterpiece!

[@matthewlawrence7056]

I once called out a martial arts "skeptic"and centrist for working with Grossman and running a seminar in 2020. The free thinker then unfriended me after years of online dialogue because I called Grossman "goofy" on the post where he mentioned the seminar he was collaborating on.

[@radicalmma]

Excellent video and needed dose of truth.

[@relaxedlegsyndrome4883]

Thanks for bringing this to light. I read On Killing and On Combat after I retired, trying to work through some things, and it felt like reading something written by an evangelical pastor who had gotten too full of himself. Come to find out, that’s almost exactly the case! Some things seemed helpful, but given hermeneutics, I chocked it up to, well…pseudoscience. Thanks again!

[@user-ci2mn1oy3w]

8 weeks of Basic is barely enough time to familiarize you with your rifle, grenades, enemy weapons, how to march, salute, recognize ranks, give first aid, etc. MANY MPS, truck drivers, mechanics, cooks, etc, get dragged into combat when convoys get ambushed or bases get attacked and they are VERY inept at the job.

[@malkomalkavian]

Thank you for the lesson :)

[@davidhummels4162]

That was excellent! Subscribed! I am a security professional, currently in a leadership position in the healthcare setting. I'm also in the later stages of a forensic psychology grad program. You are correct that Grossman's sheep-sheepdogs-wolves concept is hokum. The mindset it encourages only exacerbates divisions between police and communities. The "theory" is also not informed by the findings of modern research in psychology, as you alluded to. We are not static beings; we are constantly in flux. We could have attributes of any of these characters during our lifetimes or even in a much shorter stretches of time. I have worked in a protective services occupation for over twenty years, and I couldn't bring myself to go around spouting that sheepdog propaganda. Incidentally, there are many reasons why people become "wolves" beyond genetics. I'm going to guess that Col. Grossman isn't familiar with the strong correlation between adverse childhood experiences (ACEs) and a host of issues later in life, including aggression, substance abuse disorders, engaging in criminal activity, and even medical issues. For the record, I think I still have "On Killing" on my bookshelf but I never got all the way though it (lost interest). You make a convincing case that Grossman's ideas should be viewed as part of the problem, (not the solution) and dismissed as pseudoscience. Good work!

[@M_bags6463]

Excellent content.

[@_infiniteinterests_7908]

Great deep dive, researching, editing and all that, but does it work on the streets?

[@EonTheAien]

This is such a great video, an important one too.

[@davidtarantino152]

I thought I liked you because of your science bent MMA breakdowns.Now I genuinely think your an important voice across all fields. Not an expert in each but a voice that needs to be heard. A way of thinking that needs to be taught. Thank you.

[@guyfawkes5012]

Nice that you tackled this topic.👍 Just a small note: Anarchy is the rejection of authority, meanwhile people mean Anomie which is chaos.☝

[@edwardanderson1053]

Also the banning of ethyl lead gasoline in 1996 and the banning of refineries in urban areas beginning in the 70's has contributed in violent crime statistics, enviromental lead and other heavy metals were definitely linked to aggressive and violent behavior. The research resources are easily found online.

[@SheepWaveMeByeBye]

I heard that claim was debunked years ago.

[@christopherconard2831]

​@@SheepWaveMeByeBye It's the problem of correlation and causation. Often pointed out that they are not always related. It was a factor, but how much of one is almost impossible to measure. Though usually over emphasized. The creators of Freakonomics did a similar study and showed the rise and fall of violent crime in America also matched the sale of some food. (Jell-O I think). I'm pretty sure we can conclude the use of gelatin based desserts did not cause people to become more violent.

[@ArmchairViolence]

@@christopherconard2831 Time to write an influential book blaming youth violence on gelatin! 😎 ~Dave Grossman, probably

[@jensboeckel7112]

Brilliant! 👏👏👏

[@jojojo701]

A video by a martial arts channel about Mearsheimer would fit my interests so oddly specifically that I burst out laughing when you mentioned him in the end

[@StealthScouts]

AV you da maaaann!!!! Love it!

[@dylanestrada5429]

Im a rifleman in the marine corps and im on my second read through of the book and i was very skeptical of this video at first but understood you more halfway through. Is there an alternative book you would suggest that better represents what he was trying to touch on.

[@onealjones9039]

You sir, are a good human being, thank you for it. Subscribed.

[@hestermalatesta5355]

In the context of school shooters I recommend looking up Brinda Spencer. She's what might be considered the first school shooter in the US, or at least the first one to make it big into the news. The fact that even the acquisition of the land for the creation of the states that eventually became the United States was based on large-scale genocide, forced displacement in massacres, to jibe with the video content, being evidence that this type of behavior isn't oubtside the limits of what could be considered normal human behavior, even if it's not moral human behavior, by our standards. Anyway, Brenda Spencer was only 16 when she took a rifle and shot between 8 and 10 people on the playground of an elementary school across the street from her in California. I believe she's still in prison today. Personally I think she deserves to be considered for parole. It's on record that she says her dad kept her in a dirty house with cans all over and they slept on the same mattress on the floor, And the Christmas before the shooting took place she asked her dad for a radio and instead he gave her a rifle with a scope in 500 rounds of ammo. She was prescribed seizure medication and for a week or 2 before the shooting she was on some kind of chemical binding of her seizure meds plus alcohol plus possibly other street drugs. And if the toxicology from when she was arrested it actually been figured into her sentence she wouldn't have been charged with murder but manslaughter. The first child she shot was wearing a blue shirt blue being her favorite color so it sounds like for someone who might be depressed because of neglect and even abuse combined with being on various chemicals that alter perception and behavior that little release of dopamine from seeing a favorite color reminded help her pull that trigger. She only ended up firing 35 shots. Some first responders have the idea of moving a garbage truck in front of her line of fire and that's what prevented me further shots from hitting anyone. The situation reminds me of how sometimes domestic abuse victims who kill their abusers then get sentenced to prison instead of having a situation understood a self-defense. Oh it's so inexplicable that a 16 year old girl would do something like that when her life sucked. She gets to rot in prison, While contractors turn a profit providing the necessities of life for someone filling a bed in a cell. Anyway I thought this might be an interesting case study to mention in the context of this video's subject. Take care, all.

[@bradparker9664]

As a former law enforcement officer (who never fired on anyone or even had an excessive force claim against me), and one somewhat acquainted with LT COL Grossman personally, to quote a great line in American history, "I may disagree with what you say, but will defend to the death your right to say it.". With best wishes, sir.

[@richardjohnston-bell476]

great video. I really enjoy the evidence-based approach. Curious as to whether or not you have dome some sort of formal evidence-based study or are self-taught? Most people are easily persuaded by what appears to be true rather than analysing the claims. edit: never mind, that question was answered late in the video :).

[@russmitchellmovement]

*slow clapping* The idea that LEOs should stop being shepherds and instead become sheepdogs is something I've ranted quietly about for decades now. Glad to see it's finally getting some of the pushback it deserves.

[@nagysergiu6210]

There is a second study done for Vietnam war veterans done by a psychiatrist: Jonathan Shay advancing a slightly larger figure of 26%. However this study probably also fails to meet quality criteria for the following reasons: - it is an observational study, a type of study known to be very difficult to control for bias. - it has a very small sample size: 100 veterans (from aprox 1.6 million US soldiers that saw combat). - it suffers from selection bias: all veterans were taken from a pool of PTSD patients located at the same hospital over the period of 1 year, in 1980 (5 years after the war ended). - there is no observation on the average number of times the interviewees actually saw action, while the average figure for the average soldier is known and is around 20-25 times.

[@RicoMnc]

I have often quoted the sources being critiqued here without really knowing much about them or their history. My own tendency is to easily accept information that confirms my own biases.

[@Icarith]

A very interesting topic and a very good video