Should Transgender Women Fight MMA?

[@HolySeraph777]

Holy shit a good take. I was genuinely worried for a second, I picked up this channel a few days ago and I'd been avoiding this one for a whole. But, again, holy shit a good take. Evenhanded, well thought out, empathetic and not sympathetic. Addressing realities but not catastriphizing or demeaning cis or trans women. You actually tried hard and thought a lot and in martial arts that's worth my weight in Astatine.

[@SaintJames14]

"I was worried for a second" Lmfao

[@YichengLi]

This is actually the most even-handed approach to transgender athletes in combat sports I've ever seen.

[@Sionnach1601]

Yes True that: apart from acknowledging terms which have been made up from people's mental delusions, I would agree.

[@LeadLegion2922]

@@Sionnach1601 what delusions?

[@fruitylerlups530]

@@Sionnach1601 or maybe Armchair Violence doesn't let his brain get turned to mush by the Daily Wire and thinks for himself.. idunno!

[@Sionnach1601]

@@fruitylerlups530 What's the daily wire?

[@raydrexler5868]

@@Sionnach1601 The source of your sources

[@locky7443]

Having an open and women division is something we do in HEMA and I have argued it should be done in other sports for a while now. Also I have always been an advocate for harsher punishments for steroid use, I mean it could be argued that using steroids could be considered a form of assault.

[@maxanderson3733]

To this day I’m still surprised it being hot using PED without good reason (like Silva’s broken leg)doesn’t results in a permanent ban from a combat sport

[@diogenes42069]

And it could easily be argued someone with higher muscle mass and bone density caving in the skull of a cis woman is assault hema is not the same man there's a reason that the trans women do this dominate it may as well be one fighter on steroids it's not quite Fair to the cis women competing in the sport that's not transphobic that's pointing out it's a more complicated issue and letting everyone compete isn't always fair

[@wawawuu1514]

How are steroids a form of assault?

[@locky7443]

@@wawawuu1514 What makes a normal MMA match not assault is the fact that both participants consent to fight under a certain set of rules before hand. Bringing in a knife or any other weapon into a MMA fight would therefore be assault. Depending is on the definition steroids can be classed as a form of weapon as they are a device that increases your fighting potential. Will admit though it is a bit of a stretch :)

[@wawawuu1514]

@@locky7443 Hmmm. Potentially interesting legal problem, but I tend towards it not being assault. They're not exactly a device you bring into the ring, they just alter your body beforehand.

[@randombencounter263]

I like the idea of dividing the sport into women's and open divisions a lot. Not only would it give trans athletes access to fighting without being misgendered, but it would also make my personal dreamfight of Chevchenko vs Cejudo finally come true.

[@mr.doctorcaptain1124]

Okay so here's my issue. This is already how it's divided. I'm serious. The NFL, NBA, MLB, and MLS all do not have rules requiring competitors to be male. If a woman is good enough to play quarterback for the Denver broncos, she can. Likewise, there are no legal rules against men fighting women in sanctioned fights. That's why male vs female fights are already a thing in Japan, and are legally allowed to happen in America as well. If at any point a trans woman wants to compete in the ufc against men or boxing against men, that can already be sanctioned. That is against no laws and no rules by the governing bodies. The only rules that are currently in place are to protect women from male competitors, not the other way around. But that's not what trans athletes are looking for. Trans women want to fight biological women. They don't want to fight men. They want to compete in the women's division, not the open division. They want to be the female champion, not the open champion. I've heard a lot of people suggest an open division but as I said, that fixes nothing, because that's how it is now! But notice what you said, "Dividing sports into women's and open divisions." Trans women would just be saying, "I'm a woman, that's the division I want to compete in. Not open."

[@ArmchairViolence]

@@mr.doctorcaptain1124 That's true. I guess it just has to be made official that the women's division is not for "women" in general. It's for people that meet an unusually strict definition of woman, that many people might not qualify for.

[@ScottEMyers]

Why should men have to up their single-sex spaces and camaraderie? Dividing sport by sex is not only about safety. It's also about privacy, dignity, and enjoying same-sex company.

[@ArmchairViolence]

@@ScottEMyers "Enjoying same-sex company" sounds super gay. I, for one, also enjoy spending time with women. I fail to see how fighting cis women, trans women, or people with DSD affects my privacy or dignity. I'm already fistfighting someone in a cage while half naked, as a crowd screams at me. The last thing I'm concerned with is the genitals of my opponent.

[@institches2750]

@@ScottEMyers Yeah...I don't think that's a thing. I competed on a Co-ed team, and there was camaraderie and dignity all around. And way more privacy than on a gender segregated team, lol.

[@misterA2Z]

Great point about the PED use and hypocritical approach, many of the same great points against one as there are the other.

[@NathanForrest-yc5kv]

There are over 6000 biological differences between men and women. Let that sink in.

[@wanabisufi8843]

You've had opinions about martial arts really smug that made me cringe. But this video changed my mind about trans athletes. This is very well researched, or rather it's the only one that noticed when research is cherry picked. I had no idea the bone density lost when getting of testosterone is maintained by estrogen, no one mentions that. The fact androginzation(can't spell it since I only heard the term) is something that isn't easily reversed is something also not pushed in these discussions, usually it's talk about testosterone alone. And you did a good job even talking about testosterone and where it does or does not count.

[@jaketheripper7385]

But see that's just it... Androgenization IS in fact discussed quite frequently by those who are against trans women in women's sports, but those in support of it don't like that argument because it goes against their entire narrative and they tend to be much louder about their points, so they often just shout people down whenever it's brought up or outright deny that it's true. I'd argue that it's one of the most commonly mentioned points against trans women in women's sports, however it just might not necessarily be referred to specifically by that terminology.

[@Heeroneko]

The bone density bit is not accurate. Trans women have lower bone density to cis men even prior to hormone therapy. Bone density IS maintained, he just misunderstood/misread the context that statement was made in.

[@Heeroneko]

@@jaketheripper7385 It's because we read a lot more studies and are trying to explain things in context. Trans women have lower bone density than cis men even prior to hormone therapy and at ages 50+ cis and trans women have similar fracture risk whereas cis men have 2x increase when compared to trans women. Bone density is maintained w hormone treatment yes, but the context of it being lower than cis men in the first place is kind of important to remember. If ppl are going to make judgements on us, I'd like it to actually be based on factually accurate information at least.

[@mayanightstar]

FRANTICALLY SCRIBBLES NOTES. This is the best and most nuanced argument I've seen on this topic, ever. And I went into this very on guard as a nonbinary woke little snowflake.

[@TristanBehrens]

And you have absolutely perfectly summarized my opinions regarding trans athletes in competition. Thank you.

[@angelsjoker8190]

The arguments are correct and the conclusions reasonable. What's weird though is that this is such a huge discussion when there have only been two transwomen ever to compete in MMA, while the much bigger issue is indeed PED usage and offenders getting only a slap on the wrist with a two year ban for their first offense (and not even their former official accomplishments removed like in other sports) or even less punishment when they have smart lawyers telling some picogram BS. Thanks for pointing out the hypocrisy.

[@013chc]

first things first, thanks for approaching the topic in a respectful tone, since it's unfortunately uncommon. yapping ahead alert the sad thing about people who want to push trans people out of combat sports is that we are targeted by violence constantly and in the end we're humans like everyone else and just want learn how to defend ourselves while exercising, having fun and making friends. i'm going to give my own story as an example: i am a transgender man i started muay thai and bjj when i was 16 years old (around 2016) - when i used to live as a cis girl - bc i wanted to learn how to defend myself against bullies and harassers. i ended up falling in love with combat sports, went to the gym almost every day and gave my all, but once i realized that i am a trans man (august 2017, to be exact) i couldn't fight or deny it, so i embraced my truth. since then i feel like myself, not like an actor filling up a role 24/7. but it all happened right when the "should trans people be allowed to compete in any sports at all" discourse was beginning to rise, tbh i felt intimidated and afraid of being rejected by my own gym mates, so i quit. i regret it because the years where i didn't train will never come back, i could have improved so much more if i kept training. i also felt sad bc i always wanted to compete at least once or twice to test myself. but anyways, life went on some years passed and i went back to the same gym to lift weights bc my doctor told me so. mind you - even though i am on T, have a beard and do not look like a girl at all, everyone knew i was trans simply because i live in a small town, lots of ppl i know train there and well... i used to train there before lmao. i got bored of lifting weights and got back to muay thai, and everyone was friendly and respectful. and let me tell you something? one of the most validating times for me was when i was sparring and got hit FOR REAL by another guy for the first time, since sparring between two men and a woman and a man are different situations. i got on a hiatus again bc i got injured, didn't know if i wanted to go back to muay thai bc of that and tbh i was too broke to buy a gi and go back to bjj then last week i got assaulted by a group of bigots who have been terrorizing the lgbt community in my city (i know this wasn't a random attack, i wasn't the only victim this month). thank G'd that i am alive and recovering but that was my last straw. i HAVE to train, no excuses, no fucks given to any non-constructive criticism or hate or to discourse. just go to the gym, listen to my coach, learn with my fellow gym mates, spar as much as i can and that's it. idgaf about anyone's opinions about my identity, i just wanna be the best fighter that i can possibly be so i can defend myself and my loved ones from scumbags. but... i still think that we all should be allowed to compete fairly because that's how we really challenge ourselves and test our progress as fighters, there's a gap between training to spar and training to compete when you're both willing to knock your opponent out and/or make them tap. the hardest punches i took in sparring do not compare to the ones i took in the street that day at all we gotta find a solution that is fair to cis and trans athletes alike. i am a trans dude and i wouldn't mind competing in my weight category at the men's division, bc i train with cis dudes anyway and y'all are the majority. and since i am not a trans woman idk how it goes for them and their cis counterparts, it's a topic where i am not informed enough to give an opinion BUT i think we all should put bigotry and prejudices aside, have a seat at the table and find out a solution that's fair and respectful to everyone. anyways, if anyone managed to read all of this... thanks i guess lmao. it's so difficult to find places where i feel comfortable to discuss all that stuff but since my incident happened i've been needing to get all of this of my chest and i stumbled on this video by chance. i hope the discussion can move forwards and not backwards, and maybe that my personal experience gave some insight on a trans person's experience in combat sports.

[@BassRemedy]

same here. it sucks to have a passion for martial arts and want to be strong but socially feel like you can only train alone because you don't want to deal with all the baggage that comes with trying to exist in those spaces as a trans person

[@galenjohnson4592]

This is the most objective and unbiased view I have heard. I am proud of you.

[@potatoxgaming9466]

Objective? You know whats objective man is man

[@justsayjay]

I have been bingeing this channel all day. Every clip is really well explained and exceptionally nuanced. Great take on this and basically everything else.

[@KhaosTy]

I'm a trans woman, I'm working hard in my BJJ classes. I'm just trying to learn and grow for my own sake. I felt this was a pretty nuanced and respectful take. I appreciated it.

[@hamadalrowaie6882]

And you are happy about that ? 😕

[@WO0Odzy]

@@LEGENDSIN4KREMASTERED what part of "be polite about it" do you not understand?

[@seanrider4410]

You are a man. There is no such thing as a trans woman.

[@32bit27]

Why r u gae 🗿 (jk)

[@dzakysyairaziwahyu6955]

Why do you want to be a transgender

[@ScienceBoy70]

This is easily the best analysis of this issue that I have heard, with good analogies to make your points. And your final point about the use of PEDs is spot on. If we should follow the science to judge the acceptability of trans women competing in female divisions, we should use that same lens everywhere else it is applicable, as well. Great video!

[@pantopia3518]

It’s not whether someone knows about fighting, it’s whether they know about biology and the physiology of trans people. We shouldn’t ask fighters, we should ask doctors (who know a bit about fighting)

[@pantopia3518]

@@shinobi-no-bueno thank you for demonstrating that this is about biology knowledge that some people lack. ‘Pumping them full of cancer causing hormones’ Trans people who take hormone replacement therapy take hormones to go into the normal range for the sex they’re transitioning into. It’s a perfectly normal amount of hormones for a human

[@ArmchairViolence]

I think we really need the input of both. Scientists and doctors can tell us what the differences are, but fighters tell us whether (and how much) those differences matter.

[@robcherry4504]

Well thought through and surprisingly respectful from this channel. I am not sure exactly where I stand on this (and luckily I am not in a position where I will likely ever need an opinion on it), but certainly interesting to consider. I certainly like the idea of open division instead of mens division.

[@HappyBuffalo347]

When I last saw this argument it was in the BJJ subreddit a few years ago. The OVERWHELMING majority of commenters were against trans women competing with cis women, but it's fair to say that the overwhelming majority of BJJ subredditors are men. The users who actually said they were women were largely in favour of competing against trans women, some were unsure, and one woman was against it. Women are the people who should be leading the debate on this issue because it is their health and the integrity of their division that is on the line. If women are happy to sacrifice fairness for inclusivity that is a decision for them to make. It is our job as men to elevate women's voices and otherwise take a back seat in this debate. Secondly, and in light of my previous statement, to directly rebut the main argument against trans women competing against cis women (increased muscle mass and bone density) I have two only words: Weight classes.

[@ArmchairViolence]

I think that I'm actually someone that SHOULD speak up on this because I DON'T have a stake in it. Having subject matter knowledge and having nothing on the line is pretty much the best kind of judge you can ask for. I don't think my gender really affects the validity of my opinion. BUT if you want to limit it to people that have something on the line, it should be limited to women that actually compete, not simply all women. Women that don't compete have just as much of a stake in it as I do. The voices that should be elevated should be the voices with the most knowledge, the least bias, and the best arguments. Not necessarily the ones from the 'proper' gender.

[@HappyBuffalo347]

@@ArmchairViolence thanks for replying. It's true that the most important voices to raise are female competitors. Maybe you could interview some or talk to some female martial arts youtubers or something? Or provide links to trans/women's lead KZbin or blogs or something like that? You don't have to take my suggestions but right now the discourse is dominated by cis male voices when our opinions (although valid) are barely relevant. You have a KZbin channel that has a decent sized audience, you're smart enough to recognise and call out bias and logical fallacies, you have the opportunity to raise the voices of female competitors.

[@thequeenofswords7230]

​@@ArmchairViolence It's not that it invalidates your opinion but it does have an effect on your opinion in ways you don't recognize. For example, there are certainly women in competition who are intersex and whom don't even know it. There really are a lot of ways this spirals out, because it's just never actually been as simple as "man" or "woman". That said, I appreciate your take here and I think it's fairly nuanced but you might reconsider the exactly how hard your emphasizing a demand for a scientific rigor that plain isn't applied to other athletes. I don't think there's an easy answer and I'm pretty okay with letting individual leagues decide what suits their sport. Thanks for the video, though. I've really liked your channel and I'm more just happy to see you having the conversation in reasonable terms. And I'm glad you're the one saying it, because the people who make this conversation impossible look like you and need to get used to these sorts of conversations being had.

[@MrCmon113]

The stakeholders are the viewers and athletes competing. So in bjj mostly athletes. And it's up to tournament organizers. Problem is that it's kind of shitty towards athletes when every single tournament has different rules. Also, no, it's not my "job" to "elevate" anyone elses voice.

[@fruitylerlups530]

I'm mtf, I agree with everything in this video tbh and you touched on it in a very respectful manner. I do wish I could compete but fairness matters, and no, there's no way i'd be competing men, i grew up as the smallest, shortest and youngest of 4 boys, and most men can absolutely destroy me, so I'll just stay a fan and supporter of women's MMA, i respect it too much to insist I get involved.

[@Dan_Kanerva]

damn , an intelligent and mature trans person . I am in the black mirror dimension

[@IShotLazer]

Which really sucks :(. For what its worth, 99% of MMA practitioners never go onto to any sanctioned fighting events anyway. You can always strive to get better and better at the sport and not actually compete. What you're learning still has very real application to real life and still a really good way to stay in shape. You're still participating in 99% of the sport. Not to mention that nothing is stopping you from being a coach which is what every fighter past the age of 40 is doing anyway, so you're knowledge and perfection is still super useful.

[@SwipSedai]

@@Dan_Kanerva nice backhanded compliment dickhead

[@SwipSedai]

im pretty much with you although it's not a respect issue for me as i don't see us participating as disrespectful. it's just hard to decide that being in a space where yoiu're clearly not welcome even if you belong there is a hard hill to die on personally. it's all just depressing for me but what can i do besides stay away

[@MaidenMacabre]

@@Dan_Kanerva Lots out there, don't be fooled by the media.

[@SiEmG]

Absolutely spot-on. This is the most thorough stance I've come across. I've harbored many of these arguments, but you've nailed articulating them precisely.

[@metrolinamartialarts]

I feel like I watched a More Plates More Dates video with all this hormone talk. I dig your solution to the problem though, different take on it than normal.

[@ArmchairViolence]

If only my physique was like an More Plates More Dates video 😆

[@kylestephens9593]

@@ArmchairViolence you know what people want... show us the delts ;)

[@ArmchairViolence]

@@kylestephens9593 Trust me, if I had delts half as good as Derek's, you'd be seeing them every video 🤣

[@timgwallis]

I was dubious stepping into this video, but by the end I was in total alignment.

[@JDezi4BVlog]

Thumbs up... The main thing that always gets me about these discussions is how people just vaguely allude to how a man would compare to a woman without considering the bodily changes a transwoman on HRT goes through. It may still be unfair (and appears to be based on current science), but most people aren't capable of addressing it honestly. You went so far as to use a bunch of science terms to show that you've done more work than the average person... BY FAR

[@Tahllia]

First thing, all high level athletes male or female, have some biological advantage over the average population that lets them stand above the rest. The mistake I see many people make is comparing a trans woman athlete to the average woman, rather than comparing them to a cisgender female athlete, where the biological advantages of BOTH even out a lot more. (Plus, not every trans woman is a hulking 250lb hulking mass of pure muscle). We also don't look at WHEN trans women transition. There's a big difference between hormonally transitioning at 12, 18, and 36. (example numbers) The sooner someone transitions the closer they are to their chosen sex. Due to leaked documents, the discussion over transgender women in sports was revealed to be a psyop orchestrated by a right-wing think tank in order to push an overall right-wing agenda. They admitted that there was no true backing for the claims of transgender women having a significant advantage in sports, and even go as far as to hire both fake doctors as well as doctors in unrelated fields to add validity to their claims with no real backing. It really comes down to prey on people's emotional gut reaction to thinking about "men beating women in sports". Given that knowledge, it calls into question any discussion about transgender women athletes and (personal opinion), it puts the ball back in the court of those that oppose it, rather than putting the onus on the transgender community and their allies to advocate for transgender women's place in female divisions. Source:maia.crimew.gay/posts/the-emails/

[@MrCmon113]

@@Tahllia >the discussion over transgender women in sports was revealed to be a psyop orchestrated by a right-wing think tank Nope. The discussion over transgender women in sports was due to leftists being DESPERATE for a fight and for people to oppose them. Everyone was pretty much fine with transgender ppl, so they had to come up with something to fight over. And plenty of activists found just that in maintaining that transgender women should compete in the women's division even without any treatment whatsoever. Is the trans cyclist and university professor Veronica Ivy part of this right wing psyop?

[@ArmchairViolence]

I've already banned 2 people for transphobia. Quit testing me. If you're not sure whether the thing you're about to comment is transphobic, it is. Edit: Now I've banned 8 people. Edit: 22 people.

[@danielmontoya2494]

I was engaging with one of them and here are some studies that validate transgender people (feel free to erase this comment if you want) Suicidality among trans people in Ontario: Implications for social work and social justice Trends in suicide death risk in transgender people: results from the Amsterdam Cohort of Gender Dysphoria study (1972-2017) The Amsterdam Cohort of Gender Dysphoria Study (1972-2015): Trends in Prevalence, Treatment, and Regrets Prevalence and Correlates of Lifetime Suicide Attempts Among Transgender Persons in Argentina Long-term follow up after sex reassignment surgery Suicide in trans populations: A systematic review of prevalence and correlates.

[@ScottEMyers]

says the guy who's crying because the words "enjoy same-sex company" sound "super gay"

[@ArmchairViolence]

@@ScottEMyers More like laughing lol You have to admit that that sounds pretty gay, though. 😂 Sports were never divided by sex so that people could "be with their own kind." They were divided by sex to exclude people with structural advantages. Wanting to be surrounded by dudes is a weird reason to segregate sports, and it's not why the division exists.

[@darkghoul4049]

@@ArmchairViolence lmfao 😂

[@GBlues1]

Phobia’s are nothing more than being afraid of something. Why is anything that is said against anything phobic? If you’re not willing to listen to an opposing opinion how can you know that you’re position is correct? Simply because you believe it to be so? How come nobody ever calls anyone Flateartherphobic? They believe that their position is true every bit as much as the Globe Earthers do, and the homosexuals, and lesbians, and transgenders…even pedophiles think they are right. Are they all right? Nothing is wrong anymore? Just because a group of people say something is ok, and right, and moral, doesn’t make it so. Just because people say something is wrong, and immoral doesn’t make it so. Everyone, does and will forever have opinions, and even if you were to silence every single opinion, you’d never stop people from having them. Silence someone today, and maybe tomorrow it’s your opinion that gets silenced.🤷‍♂️

[@francisrodriguez2369]

this was a great discussion with a lot of science i wasn't aware of (such as the long term impact of testosterone even after levels have been dropped), I still don't have a well-considered opinion for trans women competing in cis women's sports division in general yet, but in combat sports it just seems not just unfair but very dangerous. I need to take some time to read the arguments from the other side, but that's def the way i lean right now.

[@maxanderson3733]

Honestly I do feel like TJ should’ve been permanently banned from the sport. Too many steroid abusers get off way too easy. We need to start making examples out of certain athletes or we’re not going to get anywhere.

[@Sionnach1601]

Lance Armstrong was stripped of all his achievements and got very long bans. So it should be for all cheaters, everywhere.

[@ogi22]

I really love your attitude. Being fair in such things as sport competitions is the base line for those things existing in a first place. Idea of one restricted and one open division might be a solution. It souds way more fair than what's currently on the plate. Thank you for your sinciere input in this subject. Stay safe!

[@Sewblon]

7:35 Not all of these factors are equally important. Most of the cis-male advantage in athleticism comes from height, and lean body mass. How is a larger heart or higher hemoglobin relevant to combat sports? 8:00 But we divide up sports competitions on the basis of gender. The standard for being in the women's division is 1. being an athelete in that sport. 2. Being a woman. If trans women meet both of those criteria, then they should be allowed in. Unless there is some third criteria that I don't know about. 12:50 You are still saying that trans women can't compete in the women's division because we are not physically woman enough to keep the cis women safe. This doesn't change that everyone is basically required to misgender us when it comes to sports. But anyway, you ignored the elephant in the room: Trans women are under-represented in both sports in general and elite sports in particular. If trans women were destroying cis-women every time we were allowed to compete, then this line of reasoning would make sense. But we are not. androginizations is not translating into a bunch of elite trans women athletes who cis-women athletes can never compete against. Nothing that you cited actually compared physiology or performance of trans women to cis women, which is the only relevant comparison here. So requiring trans women to prove that we can compete against cis-women fairly before we can compete just seems like circular reasoning. How can we prove that we can compete fairly if we are not able to compete against cis-women? Source: Transgender Women Athletes and Elite Sport: A Scientific Review By E Alliance.

[@phr3ui559]

trans women don’t meet that criteria, your source is from an activist group

[@Sewblon]

@@phr3ui559 We don't meat what criteria? Edit: I now see what you meant. So let me amend that statement: Trans women are women. So we do meet that criteria. My source is an activist group. But one of the people who runs that group is a professor who studies women in sport. So it was authorized by someone who should know what they are talking about.

[@TheDOS]

Would like to hear you have a conversation with Transatlantic (part of The Line channel). I was fairly convinced by some of the arguments you mention until I heard some conversations there. They are very patient with language and disagreements, so I think you could possibly even move each other’s opinions.

[@willowelizabethryder4141]

I have no idea if any other commenters are trans women and martial artists, I didn't see any state so, but I am! Thanks for starting the discussion, it's not an easy topic to discuss especially since data is lacking and research is inconsistent. The difficult truth to accept is that puberty, genes, and transition are so different for every one, and trans women are such a tiny fraction of the population, that aggregate data on the issue is likely never going to lead to any statistically significant findings. And what this means, unfortunately for both sides, is that fairness can only really be determined on an individual level. To be completely honest, I think the fairest solution would include lots of testing and some trans women would compete with men and some would compete with women. I'm not a medical professional so I'm not going to pretend which tests need to be done to determine which category someone like me should fight in, but I'd take the tests and I'd fight folks that medical professionals tell me are fair to fight.

[@ArmchairViolence]

An individual approach would involve a whole lot of testing for the athlete, and having failed to test an athlete before a transition could mean that we wouldn't be able to tell whether it's fair for that individual. If they score like an extremely gifted cis women are they retaining male advantages or were they just extremely gifted to begin with? Hard to say. We're starting to get decent aggregate data on certain things, so my hope is that we'll actually have a lot of questions answered in the coming years. Although, MMA will probably be the last sport that we really get the answers to, because there's so many variables.

[@willowelizabethryder4141]

@@ArmchairViolence I don't think we'd necessarily need to check before transition and after. I think you'd want that data for large scale rulings, but for individuals, tests over the last year or two could be adequate in a lot of cases. If they score like an extremely gifted cis woman, sure, that one is tough and could use pre-transition testing, but for those that score well within the cis female athlete range, it shouldn't really matter. We aren't going to get the data on trans athletes we need if trans people don't compete, and many trans women aren't going to compete if they aren't allowed to, can only compete with men, have to fight an organization just to be eligible to compete, have to out themselves as trans in order to compete, and/or deal with the inevitable drama surrounding the issue. Open division and women's division could work but then you still have the issue of cis women just self-selecting into the women's division because they don't want to fight men and then we've just effectively segregated trans women to a men's space without calling them men.

[@Snailshroom]

Would you be open to a trans league? I hated the idea before but now I'm doing bjj and rolling with men. I realized there's no way I could fight most men, they're way way stronger. But I really want to compete in something and if there are enough of us maybe a trans league is possible.

[@willowelizabethryder4141]

@@Snailshroom i think it would have problems, and would need more regulation than just weight classes. Obvi a trans person a few months into hormones is gonna be way stronger than someone like me who has been on hormones for over 9 years (assuming similar training regimen). And that will make it even more difficult to find matches. A trans league would effectively bar us from competing by the simple fact that there just aren't many trans people in martial arts gyms much less competing. I train at 3 gyms, and I'm the only trans person. I know of a few other trans martial artists in the SF bay area, but matching weight class, T levels, and skill level seems quite improbable. I have done one semi-contact Muay Thai fight (they made me go in the men's division, and probably will for a while) and I'm looking at competing in bjj (they have yet to get back to me about which gender category to sign up in) but hey, I'm putting myself out there, in harm's way, tryina make a difference. We'll see how it goes But hey if you're a white belt in the SF bay area around 135 lbs and a few years on hormones let's fuckin rollllllll hahaha

[@no-trick-pony]

Sanest video I have seen on the topic yet.

[@DkGaston]

People on the other side argue that transition massively reduces performance in atheletes who previously competed as men, which is true but irrelevant. Those women moved TOWARDS female range but did not achieve it. There is some (very limited) science that suggests a trans woman who has been consistent about HRT might no longer have a significant advantage after 30 years...so 30 years after transition, go for it 🤷. I have a trans friend who angrily argues transwomen shoukd be completely free to compete with men, but also told me herslef that any time she wants a little muscle all she has to do is skip her pills for a few days and she "blows up" with minimal effort in the gym (she's not an athelete)...I doubt there is any way anyone would know she did that. Literally every trans woman has the ability to just forget a pill and effectively be experiencing an additional MASSIVE dose of PEDs.

[@samklibaner7252]

I'm interested in the idea of a restricted verses open division. It'd probably be somewhat complicated to set up exactly what requirements are needed to qualify for the open one, but I think it might be worth doing. Besides offer a plan for trans athletes to compete, but also answer some question about intersex athletes. I'm not by any means an expert on the issue, but their sometimes seems to be legitimate concern that these biological differences can give unfair advantages. Having something like and open division could allow for those athletes to compete without anyone questioning their legitimacy. This of course depends a lot on how you create the requirements for these divisions. Mainly that you need to base it on hard sciences, not assumptions. But it sounds doable.

[@gabrielsalahi3656]

I just don’t think it’s reasonable Even the literal TOP OF THE TOP BILLION dollar sports aren’t even capable of consistently blood testing their athletes for Steroids, let alone be capable of monitoring all their hormones and more Also I don’t think it’s possible to create a division that wouldn’t end up being dominated by 100% men unless you straight up banned them…which we already have that, it’s called the women’s division

[@kolbywilliams7234]

It’s already a thing. In almost every sport, there is no “men’s league.” There are no rules against women, trans-people of any kind, or hermaphrodites, from joining any professional league. The only reason women’s leagues exist is to protect women from having to compete against men. It is a very good reason.

[@natanoj16]

Isn't the point of the open division that it is for everyone? That is what makes it open :P

[@JRCP144]

​@@kolbywilliams7234 Given the number of sports organisations which require trans men to show evidence they take testosterone and identify as men, there are certainly a lot of sports which don't allow just anyone to compete in men's leagues.

[@InkyDustMan]

I've been saying for a while now that unisex/open divisions are the only ideal solution I can think of for accommodating trans and non-binary athletes across a vast majority of sports. I'm heavily in favor of anyone competing in anything they want, and expressing themselves however they want, in a fair and sporting manner. Trans athletes, I believe, are treated unequally NOT because of trans issues, but because of logistical issues. Statistically, trans people, and specifically trans athletes, are one of the smallest minorities in the world by percentage of population in the US, trying to accommodate them in a way that maintains a healthy competitive atmosphere, while minimizing the odds of increasing trans and cis tensions has gone generally horribly across the board so far- But there is a way, and I think this is it, it's our best option for keeping competitions fair, and preventing unnecessary animosity from being targeted at trans people. Whether the big corporations responsible for hosting these sports will actually make that change, or do so in a way that doesn't make things drastically worse before they get better, I seriously doubt it. In a world where Dana White allows Jon Jones to continue fighting, I will continue to seriously doubt the integrity of American MMA. Since it's repeatedly shown that it cares more about using controversy as a ticket selling tactic, than it does about good competition. Great video once again, as I continue making my way through your back log-

[@CombatSelfDefense]

Your open division/restricted division is a really unique and fair approach. I think that’s the way to go as well.

[@awesomezombie4565]

That captain America metaphor was hilarious and awesome

[@hbalint88]

Thats a cartoon tho

[@awesomezombie4565]

@@hbalint88 ?

[@hbalint88]

@@awesomezombie4565 fantasy, not exists in the real world

[@awesomezombie4565]

@@hbalint88 did anyone say it did?

[@hbalint88]

@@awesomezombie4565 it doesnt have relevance

[@darkghoul4049]

Completely off topic, but I have a question regarding the insane domination we’ve seen from Dagestan/Chechnya based sambo fighters, even against people with wrestling/Jiu Jitsu backgrounds. What would be the strategies/techniques you would recommend/implement to tackle Dagestani-style sambo grappling in a mma match?

[@Mathenaut]

7:20 The problem here is that, past a point, and especially at the level we're speaking, it is almost a matter of opinion. To hear these arguments, one would expect to see transwomen dominating every sport at every conceivable angle and opportunity. They don't, though. Not even close. Media doesn't care when trans people lose, only when they win, though. The reality just doesn't fit the narrative, which suggests that these differences aren't as meaningful as they're insisted to be on paper. The burden of proof is unfair because you'd need to start with delineating the degree of advantages each of those traits provide to begin with, and demonstrate how differences in these traits with male fighters consistently translate to record performance. It's not enough to insist on what should theoretically be happening when the reality simply doesn't fit what that theory suggests. That's when it's time to get a new theory. 9:40 This doesn't really work because you're describing your skill vs innate traits. Can't really argue it's just a skill issue without cutting into alot of what you were saying before. That said, I do like the solution, if only because it would seem to be the first step toward less traditional but more practical tiering in sports.

[@phr3ui559]

they do dominate

[@Mathenaut]

@@phr3ui559 If you ignore everything else I suppose it would seem that way. Case in point.

[@seanisnotjohn]

Cough cough Lia Thomas cough cough

[@Mathenaut]

@@seanisnotjohn Lmao you're not winning on that one either.

[@seanisnotjohn]

@@Mathenaut "Nuh uh" -Mathenaut 2024

[@PiethagorasTearem]

5:00 isnt having a higher center of mass generally a disadvantage? I heard that was the case in HEMA at least

[@tabernadetebes5547]

I was a handball player at a subteam of Barcelona pre-transition. i left any form of sport for about 5 years, and started (medical) transition about 3 years ago. After suffering two physical aggressions i started doing brazilian jiu jitsu and boxing at a mix-gender team.i think you miss something: training practices My bodymass and bone density is higher than most cis woman and that can be an advantage, in competition, but i have literaly 0 stamina and its super hard to recover it, as my body is heavier i need more stamina for everything. (i can send you data that shows how cell regeneration and stamina regeneration is linked with testosterone if you want it) So most of the times i have to spend half of the training time resting (i'm doing like 20h/week training that translates to 10h/week of actual training) transition reduces the stamina pool and slows the stamina regeneration. most of cis girls in both bjj and boxing beat me up easy, and absolutly every guy does.

[@tabernadetebes5547]

@RED CHUCKS i don't think you understand how hrt changes your body. As i stated on the first line pretransition i was a player on one of the more competitive european handball teams. could just mean you're a transphobe.

[@Tahllia]

I have a similar experience, but I wasn't a super high level athlete. The strength loss that you face when undergoing a PROPER regimen is so drastically missed and skipped over, or pretended as though it doesn't exist which is what this guy does. It's very frustering.

[@theartificialidiot]

For absence of doubt, are you saying that, for arguments sake you were in the 70th percentile for strength and stamina, that you dropped below the female's 70th percentile for strength and stamina after transitioning?

[@GabrielMazzei01]

I kind of agree... We should have a women's division to protect them and the "other" division, where men can fight anyone who is brave enough to step in. Both sides are protected and not unfair advantage for anyone. Also, I agree on the main point: you fight on the division you belongs to. Not in the want you want.

[@melvinmalonga4068]

I've been binging your channel and I'm super impressed. Not a single miss in all of your videos. Great stuff

[@mikelundun]

So the bigger question is can we allow trans people to transition before androgynisation fucks their life up. Presumably someone transitioning before this process would have no difference to a cis women for competition purposes?

[@patrickmcdonald5731]

“I don’t get to compete (in basketball) against middle schoolers just because I’m terrible.” This is maybe the best argument on this subject that I’ve heard. On the PED issue, while needing further scrutiny, I don’t know that PEDs give the same level of advantage that being born male does. Excellent video, this is a touchy subject to say the least, and it’s not only courageous of you to tackle it, you do so with reason and tact. Good job

[@kalenberreman8252]

You think people transition to a different gender expression cause they’re bad at sports? That might be the dumbest thing I’ve ever heard.

[@kage0065]

@@kalenberreman8252 dont think he said that

[@gabrielsalahi3656]

@@kalenberreman8252literally didn’t say that

[@gabrielsalahi3656]

@@kalenberreman8252Altho now that you mention it. Some people do exactly that

[@JohnDoe-pt7ru]

@@kalenberreman8252 that's is why

[@Narguhl]

That was surprisingly balanced. Good job.

[@gentlemandemon]

I like the open division idea. As for the physiological studies, one thing that's always left lingering in my head is what a cohort study between cis athletes of both sexes would reveal. Given that men are generally more socialized around the expectation to build and maintain muscle, I wonder if those differences are as pronounced in populations of men and women who both are active in the same sport, or if they become more normalized through regular training.

[@ioanbugheanu6836]

A female against an equally weighted male would not be a fair contest. I don't see how that would work at all, and ironically is entirely counter productive to the purpose of gendered divisions that he mentioned at the end of the video. It seems like a major sacrifice to appease a minority, not that they don't need support, but it's not a good solution and would adversely affect the majority.

[@Jaham32712]

​@ioanbugheanu6836 that wasn't what this commenter proposed. They proposed a study of the metrics listed in the video (eg bone density and muscle mass) based on cis men and women who compete in the same sport. This does not require direct competition, and would offer more pertinent information.

[@mayanightstar]

This is on my mind a lot, too. And even if I suspect it's a factor, I'm ready to be proven wrong, we just need the data.

[@wagonwheel6657]

isn't all of this just a glaring indictment of how dated and backwards gender-based divisions are and an argument that sports should be classified by weight and potentially a second category, or just open divisions?

[@RCenal]

They are done by weight Feather weight Light weight Heavy weight But it should still be men v men Women v women As far as biological Or cis as it's termed Or have a division of trans v trans

[@jonesman7124]

I mean you could Test for a Dozen different biological differenses and make a Million Divisions. Also that would Take so many years of studys and a Lot of very difficult to Impossible decisions where to Put the lines

[@Davenorcal707]

No.

[@wagonwheel6657]

@@Davenorcal707 a monkey could have typed a better response

[@nickarnold1622]

I've never thought about changing the mens division to an open division. I always thought of making a third division which is open but your way makes more sense. Also. Who thinks Amanda nunes would be top 5 in the open bantam weight division?

[@darkghoul4049]

Highly doubt it, at 145 hella no..

[@ArmchairViolence]

Yeah, just the talent density of men's MMA would be hard to overcome. Nunes is successful with the help of certain physical abilities that are completely normal for men. For example, she's known as an INCREDIBLY hard hitter, and she's used to having that advantage. She has narrow hips and a wide rib cage which shift her center of mass higher and allow her to put more mass behind her punches. However, literally everyone in the men's division already has that lol. The things that give Nunes massive physical advantages in women's MMA are viewed as basic attributes that literally everyone has in the men's division.

[@patrickmcdonald5731]

@@ArmchairViolence which is kind of the point of the whole video…

[@angelsjoker8190]

No, Nunes has no business in the men's division. Less even in the Top5. We are talking about the 5 best men in the world in that weight class. Mind you, there have been these types of experiments at elite sports, i.e. in tennis where the #1 woman couldn't beat the #200 man. Skillwise, I'd put Valentina Shevchenko in the Top5 maybe even Top3 of all current UFC fighters, male and female, period. But the difference in physical attributes are just too big if she had to compete against men.

[@ioanbugheanu6836]

I think the concept of an open division is directly counter productive to the purpose of 'gendered' (sex based) divisions which he explicitly mentioned as a pro at the end of the video, so bit confused by that. If you want men and women to both have the opportunity to showcase their own skills in fair contest without primary sex differences interfering, why would you create an open division? To allow women to attempt to fight men for the sake of it? Why not allow athletes to compete at open weights like back in pancrase days as well then? Why even have weight classes, if equally weighted men and women will still not be physiologically equal? The real reason is simply so that trans athletes do not feel misgendered. While the community deserves support, I don't know if that's a valid enough reason for such a drastic change.

[@blungus9574]

I've always been a proponent of open divisions in addition to restricted ones. The positions in this video are quite refreshing to hear. We can acknowledge the legitimate reasons for split divisions (such as weightclasses or sex dimorphism) for the sake of fair competition without applying a double standard. I dislike the framing of 'trans-women shouldn't fight cis women' or 'biological men shouldn't fight biological women'. The biggest issue I see is removing the autonomy of the fighters in 1. knowing what they're stepping into and who they're fighting 2. denying them opportunities to compete Most people I know don't have a problem with the crazy K1 mixed weight fights like Kaoklai vs Mighty Mo where the fighters in question are such huge differences in weightclass no one would call it a 'fair fight' on paper. Yet both fighters are presumably consenting and know who they're fighting.

[@maciejstanczyk6663]

Even though I am overall very pro trans rights, it's nice to see a take that is against trans women competing with cis women which is not based on blatant transphobia, but actual scientific evidence. I can respect that. I'm curious how do you feel about trans men though. Would they get to compete in the open division or the "women's" division?

[@ArmchairViolence]

Trans men are much less controversial because they almost always want to compete against cis men. If anything, the trans men would be at a disadvantage, so no one gets angry at that. The only problem is that their hormone therapy could run afoul of pre-existing rules regarding TRT. Under current PED rules, trans men would not be allowed to take exogenous hormones, even if they competed with cis men. At least in the UFC, that is.

[@tabernadetebes5547]

​@@ArmchairViolence well it depends on the sport, transman have like everelasting energy. My boyfriend can train for like 4 hours nonstop (i wish i could t.t) Competition rules them away cuz their testosterone level is usually higher than the marc set for cisman.

[@Helltown66]

So-called scientific evidence that has not been cited just bits and pieces of what people say in the news and his own word of mouth.

[@MRHTOAD76]

love the no BS no nonsense approach. Common sense isn't common anymore..

[@notgodzod]

Great suggestion about the introduction of an open division - I've been saying this for about 3 years now. Great to see the idea being propagated.

[@014Darkness]

Just wanna point that the research you provided says "In transgender women, only lumbar spine BMD seemed to be affected after CSHT. This evidence is of low to moderate quality as a result of the observational design of studies, small sample sizes, and variations in hormone therapy protocols." So there's a lot of other factors AND the only real thing is a change in lumbar spine bones...

[@phr3ui559]

which evidence? wgat timestamp?

[@014Darkness]

@@phr3ui559BMD research in the description

[@roy-batty]

Dude, I'm so out of the loop I had to google wtf "cis" is.

[@BenLovejoy-h9l]

It's a Latin root word that means same

[@descoutinho-e1y]

@@BenLovejoy-h9l A nerd answer would trans is the latin preposition that means on the other side as in transalpine gaul ie France and cis would be the latin preposition that means on this side of as in cisalpine Gaul ie northern Italy. Cis is the prepositional corrollary to Trans. Coined in the 1970s by a psychologist who was also a Latinist nerd

[@crawler9065]

Just propaganda.

[@golangismyjam]

Basically a slur that the LGBTQ use to call none trans people.

[@akale2620]

I honestly thought that thing meant the robot faction in star wars.

[@Heeroneko]

At the 1992 Olympics, a women named Zhang Shan won the gold for the mixed skeet shooting event. The next Olympics, women were not allowed to compete in skeet shooting, only men. Sexism is a factor in gender segregation in sports. Trans exclusion from sports is an extension of this sexism. Height and body comp matter far more than sex or gender. Those are the metrics by which we should structure competition between competitors. We already have weight classes, adding height would level the playing field even further. If women's combat sports got even close to the amount of prestige and attention men's does, we'd see a much higher performance level amongst those fighters.

[@alexandrecabral2107]

This youtube chanel is fire. Binging videos rn

[@danielcarrillo4385]

this was much more intellectually honest and consistent than most discussions I hear on this subject.

[@DavidDistracto]

Wow, this was an evidence bas d but compassionate reasonable take. I am convinced, this is the correct and moral path forward.

[@jameshealan2881]

Cringed hard when I saw the title but ended it nodding my head. You made a lot of good sense imo.

[@jonr4291]

7:36 a bunch of stuff on that list makes for a pretty strong argument against allowing weight cutting also.

[@brandonszpot8948]

Weight cutting is very much the result of bad logistics within a mostly-functional system. It’s practically intuitive that it shouldn’t be allowed, but the current system encourages it.

[@philipearakaki]

Honestly there are so few trans athletes that giving them a medical checkup to say in which category they could compete is like, not a huge task

[@ImNoBSING]

Rightly said. Weird how this obvious fact needs to be said out loud let alone be argued with.

[@yuli161-daedalus]

hey as a trans girl who did martial arts and knows how, lets say problematic, some people can be accepting people's gender identity i would like to say thank for the use of correct pronouns

[@CardboardTriangle2]

I really enjoyed his unbiased explanation

[@omsofi1111]

As a boy*

[@CardboardTriangle2]

@@omsofi1111 it’s honestly so easy to just not be a dick. Scrolling without saying anything would’ve not only made your life easier, but everyone else’s too. Do you really wanna be the type of person to spread hate into the world? Is that what you want your legacy in life to be? It’s also just really not hard to keep your mouth shut about things you don’t understand.

[@Davenorcal707]

Your pronoun is dude.

[@aaabbbccc1939]

I have a massive problem with low testosterone athletes competing at the top level argument. I strongly believe that epidemiological study is heavy skewed by off cycles TRT athletes, which many UFC and pro-athletes are on.

[@moreparrotsmoredereks2275]

Competing in MMA isn't a right, either. If you can't pass the physical, you can't fight. I have a friend who is very good and would do well as a fighter, but cannot compete because he is blind in one eye. Same thing for people who fail the blood tests. Regardless of whether you want to fight or not, if there is something about you that makes it significantly more likely for someone to get seriously hurt in the fight, you aren't allowed to fight.

[@kalenberreman8252]

Being trans isn’t grounds for exclusion in sports. That’s called discrimination.

[@shootnumerodue6409]

This was so well researched and worded. Kudos!

[@doonkeythegreatsullivan9459]

Question, I’m just curious but what about trans men athletes. I haven’t heard much about them more then trans women. Just curious

[@ArmchairViolence]

They're not as controversial because they're likely at a disadvantage in most sports. Nobody has a problem when you compete in a HARDER league, so nobody is mad at them

[@doonkeythegreatsullivan9459]

@@ArmchairViolence oh… huh didn’t expect that

[@makoshark7122]

Im so glad you actually thought up of a solution at the end, great and productive video!

[@mo-s-]

Glad to know, I, as a trans woman, am literally god in terms of bone & muscle density

[@seanisnotjohn]

That isn't the argument at all 😂

[@zabookaminecrafteer8549]

Why has KZbin turned off subtitles/closed-caption for this video I wonder

[@skyla148]

Im a 17 year old trans girl and started estrogen when i was 16 i was a small kid started when i was 110 pounds 5,6 im now 145 5,7 doing boxing. Would it be fair for me to compete with cis women? I really wanna do competing but sont wanna cheat if i need to i will fight men (ill prolly get rolled tho lol)

[@brandonszpot8948]

Basically the short of it is: it’s unclear. There seems to be an instinctual reaction that it’s inherently unfair, but science suggests this is an ambiguous and understudied issue. As for what you should do, it would seem you may know the answer better than some Randy’s online like myself. How do you think you’d fare against cis women in your weight class? Do you find that you’re significantly more athletic in most ways? Are they typically slower and weaker than you? If so, it’s very possible that you’ve incurred some irreducible advantages. Even still, the objective isn’t to completely equalize, but to ensure that the competition is fair and safe. So perhaps that’s the question to ask yourself: If you competed against cis women in your weight class, would it be fair and safe?

[@ryandoupe1019]

I appreciate you handling this subject with both nuance and respect

[@notproductiveproductions3504]

Now I know where the sci-fi trope of de powered metahumans still having partial superhuman strength comes from

[@alexkehoepwj]

What division should trans men fight in?

[@ArmchairViolence]

They can fight with cis men. I don't think anyone would really accuse them of having an advantage. They're much less controversial.

[@alexkehoepwj]

@@ArmchairViolence So youre saying that trans woman fight in the mens division, because they have an inate advantage of a male puberty, but trans men also have to fight in the mens division because of their testosterone injections? (Thats not a straw man, i am genuinely asking)

[@ArmchairViolence]

@@alexkehoepwj Yeah, pretty much. Of course, that would depend on the amounts of testosterone that they're taking and the pre-existing rules on the matter. But a trans man would, if anything, be at a DISadvantage against cis men. And, if they want to compete against cis men, I haven't seen people present many reasons to stop them.

[@alexkehoepwj]

@@ArmchairViolence How come we dont have any trans champions in the womens division? I mean its allowed right?

[@ArmchairViolence]

@@alexkehoepwj In pro MMA, there have only been 2 trans women fighters in the female division. And one of them just started their career recently.

[@wesleyjudson599]

I actually love this video. It addresses the problems with the physical differences between men and women, and proposes an obvious and clean solution to the problems that doesnt discriminate against trans people(transfolk? transmen and women?) thumbs up for that.

[@anti1training]

Transformers 😎

[@IHuginn]

trans people is fine, trans folks is good but you shouldn't say transmen or transwomen, trans (and cis) are adjectives, fusing the two words would be disrespectfull

[@TheMightyMcClaw]

I've had similar thoughts, with the exception of making the division's men's, women's, and co-ed. A lot of men are more tender about the idea of competing against women - either for the fear of being seen as some sort of bully, or the fear of "being beaten by a girl" and having their masculinity thrown into question. So for social reasons, some men seem to require their own protected division as well. In addition to the question of where to place transfeminine and transmasculine athletes, there are also cisgender female "extreme outlier" athletes like Gabbi Garcia; whatever fair matchups exist for her, they're more likely to exist among male athletes than female athletes.

[@miacalibr]

i like the even handed take (coming from a trans woman), only thing i have to say is that hrt has made it very hard for me to regain any muscle i lost, but im not a sample size just one individual and not an athlete at that so take it with a grain of salt.

[@rudolpholaspari6039]

Trans league, solves the problem

[@blackmetalassasin1]

would have been even worse when UFC first started. Bare knuckle, no weight classes, and far less rules. few that I remember were things like no eye gouging, fish hooking, hair grabbing, grabbing the ears, no biting, out side of that, there were few other restrictions. There also was no female class. If a woman had fought any of the early fighters, they would have been killed. As for any of these trans women, they could seriously injure or kill a female fighters, not because of training, but just based on the genetic advantages like you were talking about. As for the likelyhood of a trans woman being small enough to fit the female weight classes is unlikely.

[@michaelpappas1275]

Yo where do you get your sweet Batman tee’s?

[@lewiswhatley687]

Arguing that trans athletes have the right to compete but not to win is dodgy, as you could say the same thing about women. Having Women's and Open divisons wouldn't stop trans athletes from being misgendered either, precisely because they'd be excluded from the women's division. There would also be cis women and intersex people who wouldn't be allowed into the women's division for one reason or another, and at that point it kind of makes it seem like such-and-such an athletics body is gatekeeping who is and isn't a woman, which is kind of fucked up when you think about it. I propose that trans women should be allowed to fight in women's MMA precisely because there are so few of them. What are the odds of someone being a world-class athlete, wanting to compete in combat sports, and being trans? On that note, we also haven't talked at all about trans men. Who should they be fighting against?

[@Slapyomama88]

Probably the most comprehensive and well thought out video that I’ve seen on this topic.

[@sweetshoez]

This nigga spittin to be honest. Good video and best discussion I’ve heard

[@heirapparent5004]

This was super interesting, I love these sport/ sciencey topics.❤️ We might have to get you Houston Jones's sleeveless-lab coat👍

[@greydmon5439]

Thank you for this considered and nuanced discussion.

[@SpidermAntifa]

If we see trans women enter women's mma and consistently have significantly above average win/loss ratios I'll consider arguments that it's unfair. And we're only going to get that data by letting them compete. Let trans women fight in women's divisions. If we start seeing trans women dominating women's divisions all over the place then we can have that conversation but we can't see those results without letting them in and seeing what happens.

[@ArmchairViolence]

If you need to see it happen a bunch in competition to believe it, then why don't we just abolish women's divisions and have them fight men to see if men actually have an advantage?

[@SpidermAntifa]

@@ArmchairViolence because trans women are not men

[@AedanTheGrey]

I can't think of any sports where a trans woman has been any sort of spectacularly advantaged in results so far. So I agree it seems a moot point to argue.

[@golangismyjam]

This is an insane take. Just rob women of their sport for a few years to test a theory and then say yeh you right you can have it back? The obvious solution is to just give them their own division. Let the trans fight each other and everybody should be happy.

[@AedanTheGrey]

@@golangismyjam so rob women of their sport for a few years to test a theory or do the same thing indefinitely but to people you don't like so its suddenly okay. this definitely sounds like its about fairness or integrity of the sport.

[@Lucy-Luc-Lu-L]

As a trans athlete, I have to say this situation sucks, but there's probably no good way out. I stopped competing after the hormonal transition and I don't miss it. Fighting was mostly my hobby anyway and I have more important things in life. I know a few trans muay thai fighters that sometimes fight in Thailand and usually that's agreed upon with their opponent in advance, which is fair IMO. People in thailand like white (farang) fighters, so they usually fight across weight classes anyway, so cis-trans doesn't matter anyway. There is however certain risk that their opponent might out them to the government and the fighters my end up in jail or worse. Despite Thailand being the "Mekka" of the gender affirming surgeries, the government only accepts it because of the business. Having a women's division and an open division doesn't resolve the issue, because you're basically saying trans women cannot enter women's division, which is actually the core issue hehe. Additionally, in sports there are many cis women with hyperandrogenism (imagine XX chromozomes but high testorestone secretion, so they went through puberty) and they oftentimes slip under the radar anyway.. Tl'dr: the situation sucks, and I have no idea how to work it out. Maybe let's just start with not disowning your trans kids, not attacking trans people on the streets and not saying hurtful jokes and let's hope the future figures this out ;-)

[@ramudon2428]

So... an open division and an XX-division. That way it's not a gender divide at all. Or am I missing something?

[@bob67497]

It's good to know that more science has been done on this subject since last I looked. Unfortunate circumstances, but I thoroughly agree with the idea of simply calling the men's league the open league. Just a simple as hell fix

[@Sionnach1601]

They're actually just called 'facts' and not 'science'. The term 'science' has been hijacked by people with unscientific stances, for political agendas, and thus the term has become severely tainted in the public eye.

[@fruitylerlups530]

that doesn't work, you realize how much of a disadvantage you get when you're on anti-androgens? I'm 5'4", 78 kg, no i'm not fat, i've got very little fat on my waist, its all in my thighs and butt, i was 48 kg before i started HRT. I'm also not saying I should be allowed in Women's MMA, i respect Women's MMA too much to insist I should be in it, but even with skill, the average man can kick my ass even if I'm well conditioned and trained because my hormones make me inherently weaker.

[@Sionnach1601]

@@fruitylerlups530 Sorry to hear that. 👍🙏

[@Drae-gk6dl]

I don't think anyone is going to call it that. You'll get a few woke people who do, but everyone else will keep calling it and thinking of it as the men's division, and dismissing the "open division" name as political correctness. So you'd have the occasional "freakshow" bout where a man chokes out a woman, and if she loses then it's proof that trans women are weak and shouldn't be competing in MMA, and if she wins (unlikely) then it's proof that trans women are men. It's a no-win scenario for a trans woman to compete in MMA against cis men.

[@bob67497]

@@Drae-gk6dl I agree, that's why trans-women would normally (and I think probably should) just wait the 2 years for the HRT to eliminate any unfair advantages and then compete. It sucks for them that there is a necessity for that time frame to be spent not competing, but we all have unfair facts of life we have to deal with, and that's one of theirs.

[@Drae-gk6dl]

I don't think you hate us or anything, but I do think that ultimately this video is a good example of how trans people are held to impossibly high standards relative to even other marginalized groups. You admit that the standard of proof that would allow trans women to be able to compete as women is impossibly high, and that the open division would mean that trans women would have to compete with cis men, which would not be fair to us. Again I don't think this is caused by hate, but ask yourself: has any other group had to prove, scientifically, beyond a shadow of a doubt that letting them in would not be unfair to other groups before they were let in the door? The answer is yes: black athletes. Population-level average bone density was used as one of many scientific excuses to exclude black men from high level sports, and that didn't change because enough studies came out showing no difference in bone density. In fact, the opposite is true, there are still plenty of good, recent studies which show statistically-significant differences in average population-level bone density. What changed was that black people got just enough recognition of their humanity, and black athletes were able to draw enough money and pull enough stunts (Jack Johnson, for example) that they created space for themselves and were eventually let into the mainstream space of sports. And we're trying to do the same thing. I will never be able to prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that there is no physical advantage. The evidence for both sides is pretty inconclusive (www.cces.ca/transgender-women-athletes-and-elite-sport-scientific-review). What I and other trans people in sports aim to do is to change the narrative and the framing whereby a potential unfairness towards cis women is valued more heavily than a definite unfairness towards trans women. Until inclusion is assumed and exclusion must have strong evidence to support it, rather than the other way around. So tl;dr, I respectfully disagree.

[@pinkdogroslyn8832]

as a trans woman, this video is so amazing. i have so much to say about it, but ill just say that I absolutely respect this take, and its so sophisticated and reasonable that I'm honestly blown away. you should be proud of yourself. I have a lot of good to say, and a lot to correct respectfully from a trans perspective, but every single one of your points are incredibly well thought out and based in experience and research, and it shows. i also love your unwavering neutrality and how well you properly gender and respect the trans people you refer to.

[@austiny6539]

The T level and athleticism arguement reminds me of when I heard that 2x heavyweight champ frank mir suffers from low testosterone. I wonder how he’d do in the womens division 🤣

[@CrashOverdrive789]

I don't get this idea of fairness in sports. There are athletes who are just born with huge advantages over others. What did they do to get those? Nothing. Do we ban them because of it or have discussions over fairness because of it? Sports is not fair and it never was. It seems to me that fairness is only brought up when it comes to trans people to keep them out.

[@ArmchairViolence]

That same argument could be used to simply eliminate the female divisions entirely. As well as weight classes.

[@CrashOverdrive789]

@@ArmchairViolence The reason that female divisions and weight classes exist is not fairness, in my view. They exist because of entertainment. It is more fun to watch a fight that is closer and can go either way. The same thing is done in many other sports like motorsport, lots of regulations and rules to make it more interesting to watch, but not because it is more fair. If there was real fairness in sports, no one would watch it. You would have to try to take natural advantages into account and award people who made the most gains and overcame the most obstacles. Like the guy in a marathon who came in 145th place, but he is the real winner if you take into account that he has misaligned legs, much smaller lung volume than all the others and is the oldest etc. I should also say I never had the chance to be an NBA player (size), which is also unfair...🥲

[@okarowarrior]

​@@CrashOverdrive789 oh, I see you are employing the classic "I drive the argument to the point of meaningless absurdity so I can win" fallacy

[@BenLovejoy-h9l]

​@@CrashOverdrive789no it's fairness a 220 lbs man going against a 120 lbs is not fair and the 120 lbs will most likely die

[@brandonszpot8948]

“I don’t get this idea of fairness in sports.” Are you an athlete by chance?

[@RebelKitty338]

I'm trans and I found this really interesting and on the nose. I've been wanting an open division for some time, and I feel that's one of the few solutions that truly is inclusive of everyone. Even besides trans athletes there is the reality that at least some % are intersex, and using stringently gender-based & biological criteria will inevitably cause some kind of issue unless it's addressed. I appreciate your candid style.

[@ChiIsTakingMartialArts]

The key to less fighting over genders and sexualities is that people should stop thinking in binary mindsets. For example, yes, having open divisions is a way

[@gabrielsalahi3656]

I just don’t think open divisions would work Because any division that allows for men even the weakest of men to join, will end up taking over that division 100% without a single female in it You could create a trans only division but even this would still be 100% biological men The only division that can possibly stop the overwhelming male dominance is an all women’s division…which we have

[@twinklingjoiner]

As a trans myself I had this question and I understand biology and I want to have fair competition without being miss gingered as a guy. HEMA (Historical European Martial Arts) Does things a little different and I would com to the same conclusion on wanting a trans division. But by watching this video and open divisions would just be so much better and I 100% agree. We cant argue about science, only come to a better understanding. Its hard to decide if I want to transitions because I would love to compete in MMA because of doing 3+ years of combat sports and I would love to test out my skills to see if they can pay the bills. This video helped me better understand on how to push for an MMA mach or at least better understand on what I can do for the future for Trans people that's in the same bout as me.

[@notusingmyname4791]

miss gingered?? LMFAO

[@kevinbihari]

@@notusingmyname4791 it is a serious thing in ireland i hear.

[@Damesanglante]

🤣🤣🤣

[@sansgranie7782]

@@notusingmyname4791damn leave these gingers alone. xd

[@boreragnarok4680]

This is unironically the most respectful take I've seen from a martial arts channel on this issue. Just the fact that you don't misgender transwomen and aren't a transphobe already makes this video a huge breath of fresh air. 🙂

[@i-t2447]

Many things you listed change with HRT like vo2 max and hemoglobin levels significantly, it's not just T levels. Reduced oxygen transport would seem to make having a larger heart more of a disadvantage and possibly why trans women have heart attacks at higher rates. On average, trans women have larger frames, but on HRT they are being powered with less muscle mass and oxygen transport. Bone density also widely varies between races as well which isn't seen as an issue. The average African woman for example have about the same bone density as the average white man. Age is also a factor. HRT will eventually make trans women just as susceptible to osteoporosis as a cis woman (especially in the lumbar and spine). Skin toughness is also reduced. Body mass and muscle strength does seem to remain above that of a cis women for a while however it's not 100% that muscle strength remains this way. Many studies only looked at muscle strength for around 3 years but some longer term studies (Muscle Strength in Transgender Women After Long-Term Hormone Therapy: A Cross-Sectional Study ) show muscle strength eventually drops to that of a cis women's. Trans Women do likely have advantages, however people completely ignore or underestimate the disadvantages as well. The Olympics has allowed trans people to compete since 2004. It doesn't seem to be a problem. They aren't superhumans that dominate every single competition, since most can't even qualify. So I'm not fully convinced any advantage is significant anymore than what already exists.

[@danielmontoya2494]

I feel like theres a lot more research to be done around the effects of transitioning. Also the destigmatization of trans people would lead to earlier transitions. I imagine there would be a significant change and a lot more research and reconsideration of the sports problems

[@ArmchairViolence]

If there is adequate research that says that all of the factors go to a cis woman level, then that's great. But it also depends on the sport. In basketball, there's going to be a very permanent height difference. In MMA, there's going to be problems with skeletal shapes. And then we're also talking about over what timescale things even out, and at what T levels. For example, the Olympics currently allows trans athletes in certain events to maintain a T level of over 280ng/dl for a single year and compete as a woman. That T level is within the male range, and that standard is a joke. We haven't had a problem at the Olympics because we've thus far only ever had one trans woman compete. Also, if you could link me to some of the data you're talking about, I would appreciate it!

[@i-t2447]

@@ArmchairViolence my reply got automodded due to having links

[@ArmchairViolence]

@@i-t2447 Seriously? The stupid spam bots seem able to post links, so I don't know why it won't let you do it! If you can give me titles that can easily be Googled, that's fine too

[@i-t2447]

​@@ArmchairViolence @Armchair Violence There will be a height advantage, but is a little more height enough to outweigh reduced hemoglobin and muscle mass. Meaning they would have to carry the larger frame with less to work with. This position seems to be accepted when it comes to trans men. They are legally allowed to inject testosterone, but there is not the same outrage since most intuitively accept the advantage doesn't outweigh the disadvantages. The Olympics requires trans athlete's t levels to be below 10ng/dl not 280 [IOC Consensus Meeting on Sex Reassignment and Hyperandrogenism November 2015]. World athletics requires below 5ng/dl which is the scientific recommendation for negating any advantage in T levels since circulating testosterone levels explain most athletic differences between the sexes [Circulating Testosterone as the Hormonal Basis of Sex Differences in Athletic Performance]. 95% of trans women tested in this study had t levels below 2ng/dl compared with 94% of females [Change in grip strength in trans people and its association with lean body mass and bone density]. Only one trans woman has qualified for the Olympics (and even then she didn't do well), but I am saying there have been more that have tried out and failed to qualify. Trans women hold no world records in sports and only 1 has succeeded in qualifying for the Olympics. Systematic review of all research done on trans athletes (as of 2016) failed to show any advantage [Sport and Transgender People: A Systematic Review of the Literature Relating to Sport Participation and Competitive Sport Policies]. The Airforce last year studied pre and post transition trans people on fitness, they found trans women eventually become on par with ciswomen with the exception of being 9 percent faster running [Effect of gender affirming hormones on athletic performance in transwomen and transmen: implications for sporting organisations and legislators]. Although studies which specifically focus on cardio failed to find any advantage [Analysis of the Performance of Transgender Athletes]. On Hemoglobin: "In transwomen, hormone therapy rapidly reduces Hgb to levels seen in cisgender women. In contrast, hormone therapy decreases strength, LBM and muscle area, yet values remain above that observed in cisgender women, even after 36 months." [How does hormone transition in transgender women change body composition, muscle strength and haemoglobin?] This is going to reduce vo2max regardless of any potential advantage due to size. The oxygen transport to organs is reduced also reducing speed, endurance and recovery. You might have a little more size but you would now have less oxygen transport to work with. Another study on muscles suggests the very functionality of the muscles change as well "After GAHT muscle strength of TW is equal of CW. There is a decrease in the functionality of the muscular unit in producing strength in this group of TWs since strength decreased disproportionately to muscle mass which leads us to believe that there are important functional changes in intracellular oxidation mechanism." [Muscle Strength in Transgender Women After Long-Term Hormone Therapy: A Cross-Sectional Study] Bone density: [Mayoclinic Managing skeletal issues in transgender and gender-nonconforming individuals] "Although bone mineral density (BMD) is generally preserved in both transgender women and transgender men, there are sparse data on fracture risk. In the largest fracture study to date, which included 2,023 transgender women and 1,036 transgender men, fracture risk was not increased in transgender men when compared with either reference cisgender men or cisgender women, but it tended to be increased in transgender women younger than 50 years when compared with age-matched reference cisgender women but not when compared with age-matched reference cisgender men. In transgender women older than 50 years, fracture risk was similar to that of age-matched reference cisgender women, but was increased almost twofold compared with that of age-matched reference cisgender men." While a trans woman might have preserved bmd the fracture risk seems to be greater for trans women. Might get the advantage of having better BMD but they are slightly more fragile than a cis woman's bones. Are we to also take bone density into account when it's two cis people fighting since that too can vary widely?

[@SheHitsU]

Hello , Just started watching your channel not too long ago, love it and show it to my fighters. We are a Fem/Womens steel fighting Team in Las Vegas , In the ACS League (Armored combat sports) It is always a hot button issue, and i do think you tried and in many ways succeeded to be very fair about this, which shows in your bringing up of PEDs. Because as you illuded to there are MANY MANY in the mens divisions of many fight sports that use them. In our sport for instance it is said that 90% of the Male fighters are on PEDs. Whether by a doctor through seedier sources, but the fact remains. This is however a sport that allows Transwomen (in this league spacifically[Was a big reason the ACL{armored combat league} became the ACS and the ACW{Armored combat sports worldwide} divided was over this issue) as long as the women are within that hormone threshold you talked about. The Flase equvilancy comes in the form of thinking that the 'Lasting gains will give the trans fighter the unfair advantage.' is an older argument how ever i will concede i have never seein it explained as thoroughly and thoughtful as you had. i do still disagree on parts because for example as we dont have many examples for trans fighters as you mentioned. we can still look at them, So ill talk about one whom i know through a friend who trains with her. Fallon Fox . She has a record of 5-1 professionally with 3 of those wins and one of those losses being by way of knockout . Which on paper sounds like holy shit yep dominating girls out here. First fight against but what about the strength of her compettion 1st win Elisha Helsper OPP rec. 0-4 2nd win Ericka Newsome OPP rec 0-2 3rd win Allana Jones OPP rec 2-8 1st loss Ashley Evans Smith Opp Rec 6-5 4th win Heather Basset Opp Rec 4-4 5th Win Timmika Brents Opp Rec 2-4 combine W/L of OPP : 14/27 In fact this is what Dana Said about fallon (sorry for the Misgendering trans peeps) "So before you even think about fighting in the UFC or whatever - he was a man and now he's a woman - he's fighting girls who have losing records. Before you get too crazy about him being in the UFC, he's so freaking far from being in the UFC that it's not even funny." Basically saying that they havent fought (at that point 2-0) anyone worth getting Fox into the UFC. Does this mean these women are trash ? No, in fact the first woman on the OPP list Elisha Helsper took second in a 2010 National guard Combatitves tournament as the only female so shes beat men, so a trans woman on HRT shouldnt have been overwhelming. I just think this speaks to the false equvilency that Cis men and transwomen are going to have such a genetic advantage they would clearly dominate all cis women around them by virtue of once having T and the accompanying androgynizing effects. Other examples can be used to the same degree of Trans Athletes in other sports like weight lifting where these "genetic advantages" should help the trans athelets cruise past their competition and yet fail to even place. But when evidence like this is show it is hand waived as (shes doing it so other trans people can compete). Which really gets to the whole center point which is honestly and i say this as a Trans Athlete who has been in love with combat sports my whole life. (only started training BJJ and Muay Thai after i transitioned ) i was however in the military (USMC) and wrestled in HS. I think men have had access to these spaces more (fight spaces) in general , and that not until the last decade or so has womens fighting gotten to a point where there are very very serious womens fighters , trainers and programs. Fight game in many ways has been a boys club for quite a while and luckily a lot of that is starting to change, unfortunatly for LGBT activists this isnt quantifible. So why bring it up? Because science especially in sports medicine still tend to have some biasis in them and where conducted quite awhile ago, and newer reports seemingly starting to come up that refute some older arguments against trans people.One of which you already touched on about the T levels not being as important in the current when talking about competitive advantage. And i do think it is time for new studies cause you are right if youre 100% in the trans athletes should compete 100% no problem no matter what you admit its not about the science at all. But i would argue that it is a mixed bag at best no matter what the intentions . So with the Fight game changing and more and more kinds of people wanting fight more and more aspects will get studied , and with how in the forefront this topic is , we will know more in the next ten years hopefully or everyone will go back to pretending like womens sports didnt exist as they do now until a transwoman gets involved. (This also i think thankfully is starting to slowly change) I hope i dont get blocked i love your content and not arguing more just adding more or alternative insight to the convo ? idk either way i was ready to go oh god insert eyeroll especially cause of the # but i will say i do like this approach and know you are acting or at least appear to be acting in good faith. In any case i just wanted to thank you if you even end up reading this for taking the time to do so . I also admit that as a transperson and athlete it is infinatly harder for me to be objective in issues like this with as muddy as the waters have become lately, but i have tried and hope i got close at least.

[@kingrhythmo9045]

In my HEMA group we have Open and Women’s divisions.

[@martialartsvocationalschoo3319]

Love the idea of the open division!

[@iwantagoodnameplease]

On the one hand, I do think steroid and other PED in sports should be harshly punished, if not a lifetime ban and all titles stripped. On the other, I really want an "anything goes" Olympics were people are free to cybernetically enhance themselves. Maybe we need that for combat sports as well?