Music Chat: Are German Conductors Overrated?

Quite often, the answer is "yes," but what's really interesting is the reason for this dubious state of affairs. Here are my thoughts about it. Feel free to offer yours!

[@JackBurttrumpetstuff]

I think that one of the reasons behind Karajans multiple versions of some repertoire was technological. Each version highlighted new recording techniques, or a new venue… for ex. His Berlin Beethoven and Brahms sets: 1. Early 60s stereo in the Jesus Christus Kirche, 2. Modern 70s stereo in the Philharmonie, 3. 70s analogue films, 4. 80s Digital recording, 5. 80s digital films.. You are absolutely right, though: there is no significant difference, interpretively, between any of them.

[@jdistler2]

Another reason for Karajan remaking that repertoire over and over again was simply that it's repertoire that sells.

[@JackBurttrumpetstuff]

@@jdistler2 can’t argue with that!

[@TheOneAndOnlyZeno1889]

@@jdistler2 $$$$$ J A C K P O T $$$$$

[@christianstark2381]

Hm. Maybe as a German I'm a bit biased, but I just do not think this kind of generalization based on nationality works with artists. There have always been vastly different influences on German cultural society and academics, because, mind you, even if our country is small by US standards, there is a lot of international music making going on. Even in the past, German cities in the old Pre-WW1 Kaiserreich were a melting pot of all sorts of continental music traditions, and based on a conductor's upbringing and socio-cultural background, their perspective on music and the German repertoire could be and were very different. A Beethoven symphony conducted by someone like Erich Kleiber or Carl Schuricht sounds completely different from a Beethoven symphony conducted by Furtwängler. Furtwängler as a son of a wealthy family of academics based in Berlin had a completely different musical background than for example Otto Klemperer, whose father grew up in a ghetto in bohemian Prague and who was heavily influenced by Mahler. As individual as their biographies were, their perspective on German classical music must have been, too, even if they were partly focused on the same repertoire, were working in the same city with the same people and knew each other. Similarly, people like Kempe, Keilberth, Jochum, Fritz Busch, Knappertsbusch, Kurt Sanderling, Suitner, Wand or Dohnanyi had completely diverging approaches not only when it came to the German repertoire, but to conducting in general. This is by no means an attempt to claim their superiority over any great international conductor with that same repertoire (even the highly conservative and nationalist pre-Nazi German Wagnerians were extremely impressed by Toscaninis Wagner for example), but I'm trying to say that you have to assess each conductor by his or her individual merits. This is still true today. I am not at all impressed by Thielemann, but people like Haenchen, Honeck, the junior Sanderlings or Hengelbrock still do some very good stuff (and some very young conductors too), and one bad apple does not spoil the whole bunch, especially with a more international academic foundation than it used to be in the old days. By the way: Historically and politically, Charles Munch was a German-born conductor who even studied with Pfitzner ;-)

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

Of course!

[@ThreadBomb]

I think David is talking about the international _reputation_ of German conductors as a group, not their individual merits.

[@bristollodekka5281]

@@ThreadBomb Dave will no doubt speak for himself.

[@alejandrosotomartin9720]

Please don't apologize. Someone likes something more than other things. That's all.

[@christianstark2381]

@@ThreadBomb Yes he is, but in my opinion even adressing this argument of German conductors' reputation means to legitimize the assumption that you could assess their actual qualities as a whole without regarding their individual merits. This assumption is basically founded on a wrong premise, and thus it is just as wrong to state that German conductors are overrated as it is wrong to claim their outright superiority when it comes to conducting German repertoire or anything else. Furthermore it's not really a valid argument for the cause of German conductors to be overrated to mention Christian Thielemann. Thielemann is just as "overrated" as are Nelsons, K. Petrenko, Currentzis or Dudamel, all of them not German. Overrating an artist in my opinion is not a question of nationality, but of a general phenomenon to rate promotion and public relations higher than the actual artistic performances.

[@ciclostilato3037]

"German conductors" is a category that simply does not exist in reality. Perhaps there is a "German tradition"? Could be, but nothing to do with overrated or underrated conductors. Let me do two examples. The hero of BundesRepublik Deutschland: Eugen Jochum. And the hero of Deutsche Demokratische Republik: Herbert Kegel. Both are great conductors, absolutely underrated although they where politically hyped.

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

@@hmhparis1904 Twice.

[@eddihaskell]

One of the reasons Karajan made so many recordings is that he made so much money in fees and residuals. in 1988, his fortune was estimated at $250 million, $638 million in today's money. Heck, he would have recorded the Horst Wessel March every year if he were paid enough since he began every concert during the war years with it -- he knew it so well.

[@ThreadBomb]

A great performance of standard repertoire is obviously a good thing, but taking a broader view it is the musicians who introduce great _new_ work into the repertoire who are of greater value. This is why, for example, the very few Bax cycles that exist are more important than the dozen new Beethoven cycles we seem to get every year.

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

No argument from me there!

[@bristollodekka5281]

Also George Lloyd....

[@jdistler2]

Really interesting chat, thanks so much Dave! It made me start thinking about the piano repertoire in a similar way....but that's a whole other discussion.

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

Yes, consider Schnabel vs Gieseking, or something like that!

[@hwelf11]

I think that the effects of what Dave calls our "over-reverence for the classics" may be even more pronounced in regard to the present-day piano recital. Not all, but a great many of the terrific pianists now before the public seem largely dedicated to emulating the model of Schnabel, with a concentration on the greatest, mostly Viennese masters at the core of the repertoire, often to the exclusion of anything that might be considered light-weight or frivolous. In comparison to an earlier era, it often seems to me that some of the fun and even the variety has gone out of the typical recital program. Yes an all Schubert or Beethoven program by a Goode, a Lewis our an Uchida can be inspiring, but would it be a crime to throw in a few less profound bon-bons or showpieces now and then?

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

@@hwelf11 Good point!

[@marciosr8504]

Mr. Hurwitz, in the New York Philharmonic box set video you said people in general prefer to focus, buy, and sell conductors box sets instead of orchestras like the New York Phil or Vienna box set(s) . I would love if you started focusing a little more on the great orchestras. How about a top 5 or top 10 Staatskapelle Dresden performances? By doing that you will eventually talk about the conductors, of course, but it would be nice to keep the osquestras in the conversation talking about their history, decades, phases.... That being said, I'm really looking forward to the new DG Karl Böhm complete orchestral recordings set😁

[@marciosr8504]

@@hmhparis1904 I was on the fence about this one. Not anymore...thanks!

[@fernandoleon7606]

I love to hear about Salonen. Two of the biggest experiences in live music in my life were in his hands, one with LA (Bartok and Mahler) and one with Philharmonia (Scriabin). Terrible news when he decided to quit conducting, and I can imagine what LA audience thought with "the replacement". Salonen is a great, great conductor who is not in many concert attendants minds because of his absence on that specific German repertoire. And many attendants still expect to hear that particular repertoire when attending to a concert, even if they have heard the same stuff millions of times before.

[@RhapsodyOfJoy]

Salonen is retiring?! Why?! When did that happen?!

[@fernandoleon7606]

@@RhapsodyOfJoy some years ago, the new was that he was leaving almost entirely his work as a conductor in order to mainly focus on his career as a composer. That was by the time he finished his tenure in LA. That was more or less the situation. Maybe someone closer (at least geographically) has more to say to explain the story. The fact is that he continue as guest conductor working once in a while with several orchestras. I have gladly seen that he is more involved in this now. But again, someone with more and better information can be helpful in this issue.

[@RhapsodyOfJoy]

@@fernandoleon7606 it would be such a shame if he retired entirely! He's a wonderful conductor. And his interviews/ talks are equally amazing!

[@eddihaskell]

Salonen is now the music director of the San Francisco Symphony.

[@geraldparker8125]

One of the non-German pieces that Furtwängler excelled in was the lovely overture to Cherubini's "Anacréon", but Karajan was even better conducting that.

[@nicholasjschlosser1724]

Thanks for the thoughtful video. The comment about Bernstein's second Beethoven cycle is interesting, as it underscores how much both orchestras and labels influence how a recording is received, irregardless of how they actually sound. The NY Phil has been playing Beethoven for as long as the Vienna Phil, and Bernstein's recordings for Columbia/Sony are some of his most exciting work. But recording with Vienna (for DG, which had set itself up as the curator of the Austro-German repertoire on disk) somehow bestowed a legitimacy on Bernstein's approach. It also started the unfortunate trend by which some conductors feel they have to record a Beethoven cycle with Vienna to be taken seriously as an interpreter of his music (ie. Rattle and Nelsons).

[@xavierotazu5805]

I completely agree about Thielemann. Wagner "old school/guard" fans are crazy about him (even outside of Germany). I think it is because Thilemann has a good vertical sound but, in my opinion, he has serious problems with horizontal sound.

[@eugenetzigane]

Spot on, my friend! This is such a problem not only with Thielemann but with virtually every single contemporary conductor. IMHO, it's the result of nearly a century of modernist dogmas and the crystalization of conservatory education that over-prioritized vertical ensemble and geometric phrasing over flexibility and small-scale rhetorical gestures.

[@matthiasm4299]

Let's take a quick, non-exhaustive survey of the nationalities of music directors in the German speaking world: Berlin: Russian, Argentinian, German, British Munich: British, 2 Russians Vienna: Swiss, Colombian, American Dresden: German Leipzig: Latvian Hamburg: American Frankfurt: French Where are the German conductors anyway nowadays? There are of course 2 Austrians hiding out in the American Rust Belt. Joana Mallwitz will take over the Konzerthaus in Berlin in 2023. I'm probably missing someone, but there doesn't seem to be that many of them right now. Concerning Thielemann, I think it's a good thing that he's staying within his repertoire - I believe that Beethoven was already way outside of his comfort zone. He is a fabulous opera conductor for the heavy German stuff and knows how to work with singers.

[@ThreadBomb]

Each of those orchestras has only one conductor?

[@matthiasm4299]

@@ThreadBomb It's a list of the music directors / principal conductors of what I consider to be the major orchestras in those cities. For instance in Munich the BRSO (Rattle), the Munich Phil (Gergiev) and the Bavarian State Opera (Jurowski). Of course, other people conduct these orchestras as well, but not as much.

[@ewmbr1164]

A name I miss in this video is that of Wolfgang Sawallisch. When I was a student in Munich 1979-1981, I was lucky to witness both Rafael Kubelik and Wolfgang Sawallisch in action, the first at the Herkulessaal with the Bavarian Radio Symphony, the latter in the pit (and, for symphonic concerts or as accompanist at lieder recitals or chamber ensembel pianist, onstage) at the Bavarian State Opera. Sawallisch, to me looking back now, seems to be another representative of the German "Kapellmeistertradition" (working up from the smallest opera houses to ultimate great fame). Mozart, Wagner, and Strauss were the house gods at Munichs opera, and Sawallisch surely cultivated that tradition. As for another German conductor who wrote lots of music for huge orchestras: Richard Strauss. I mention him here because, [disclosure] here in Boston, the Symphony embarks on a season stuffed with his music (no operas, because of having to get lots of singers). Way too much for a mere human to acoustically absorb. I suspect there will be new DG recordings with Andris Nelsons having a go at Strauss orchestral works. Oy vey... Yet not all is dire. Lise Davidsen is scheduled to sing the Four Last Songs, and Marlis Petersen will not dance the Dance of the Seven veils, but sing Salome's closing scene (followed by the Alpine Symphony!).

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

Light music! Love it!

[@porcinet1968]

I wonder if you ever heard Boulez's Beethoven 5th? I had it on record decades ago. I liked it a lot. From memory it is something like the "standard" way the piece is done now after decades of HIP as you pointed out in another video about the death of HIP.

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

Sure I've heard it. I think it's dreadful.

[@albertam]

As a music lover living in Hong Kong, far from Europe, I try to listen as diversifying as I can. This video provides a very good insight and let me rethink about not only classical music but also other art forms.

[@nihilistlemon1995]

Hello fellow HKers

[@dianelewis4774]

I'm learning a lot from your musical chats; keep them coming. Thanks again, diane lewis

[@s28101]

Me too 👌

[@user-ys2ms5jw3g]

Living in Seoul, I have been impressed more often with local conductors than caucasian, "world-class" guest conductors whose concerts are typically much pricier. More often than not, the latter are too steeped in HIP practices to avoid sounding mannered. I cannot say the same with the playing of the orchestras, however.

[@richardwhitehouse8762]

I love your chats, Dave. Apart from anything else it's actually nice to hear someone (ANYONE!) talking enthusiastically (and knowledgeably) about classical music. It really is surprisingly rare. Years ago on BBC radio 3, we had Anthony Hopkins and (for kids) David Munroe. Now we have over enthusiastic presenters who pretty much tell us how good something is THAT WE'RE ABOUT TO HEAR! Of course part of loving classical music is being permission to kvetch about the things we don't like, which is great unless those opinions have become fossilised. One of the great joys has been that the Darmstadt orthodoxy that seemed to afflict 20th century music post WWII, has been receding since the 70s. To the benefit of the listener, in my view. Anyway, I love your channel. Thank you

[@user-et8mh2ki1c]

Hi Dave, another great chat. You always provide insights and perspectives that I have never seen or tried. Thank you for that. A related question to this topic: are you just plain allergic to any conductors? (If I see Sinopoli's name on an album, I just turn the other way. I may be missing out on good stuff, but after x number of performances you don't like, it's over).

[@keithcooper6715]

ALWAYS Interesting & FUN listening to you expound on the music I love - Thank You AGAIN

[@sgfnorth]

Where do we put Jochum? Distinctly a German conductor of Austria-German music - perhaps the only one to do most of it well even when he repeated it. Memorable in Bach, Haydn, Mozart, Beethoven, Bruckner. When off that track stuck usually to German music but never got the same limelight as his contemporaries though a wonderful conductor in my view.

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

Yes, I have said that many times here. Check out my Jochum videos.

[@joshuacherniss3802]

Many thanks for another great talk, Mr. Hurtwitz! I think there are two issues that you bring out here. One is the veneration of the classic German repertoire, and those who perform it, over others. I agree that this is unfounded and often detrimental; I'm also somewhat guilty of it myself, insofar as I've listened to far more performances of Brahms symphonies than Tcaikovsky or Sibelius. And I think it's fine to prefer the German repertoire to others, provided one doesn't make claims to intrinsic superiority of it as a tradition. The other issue is the tendency to stereotype conductors by nationality: non-Germans who perform German music wonderfully get under-rated, and Germans who perform German music indifferently get over-praised. This really is unmusical, and annoying! You cite some great examples of these tendencies; another, which has long been a personal bug-bear, is the underrating of Monteux, who was so wonderful (and historically interesting and authoritative) in Beethoven and Brahms, but got stereotyped as a "French" conductor. Interestingly, Italian conductors seem less prone to this -- Toscanini certainly, and Abbado and Muti too, seem to both have gained acceptance/reverence for their performance of German music, and their (wonderful) performances of non-German music don't seem to have been held against them as "serious" conductors. I wonder if you have any theories about why this is.

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

Monteux is an excellent case in point, exactly as you describe it. As to the Italians, neither Muti nor Abbado get much credit as Beethoven conductors. Abbado was great in Brahms, Muti much less so. Toscanini was, of course, in a class of his own. His mastery of the German repertoire might be said to have crippled (but not quite destroyed) the myth that German music was best suited to German conductors, and those who followed in his footsteps have benefited accordingly.

[@VallaMusic]

do a few things well and forget the rest - lol, that's why I love Furtwängler

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

What did he do well?

[@VallaMusic]

@@DavesClassicalGuide hehe - dear David I see on the Wikipedia page for Furtwängler that although so many musical luminaries' quotes of adoration and praise for Wilhelm are well represented, you are the esteemed critic who is quoted as an antidote for all that ! oh well, obviously I am in the camp that wholly agrees with his manner and method of conducting while your camp is apparently less than fond of it

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

@@VallaMusic I take him on a case by case basis. He was wildly inconsistent, made worse by the fact that so many of his recordings are broadcast airchecks whose release he never would have approved. His legacy does not do him justice, I think.

[@jensguldalrasmussen6446]

Oh, my God...are we finally getting some nuances here, rather than the usual Furtwängler bashing (I know, this is as provocative and heavy a generalisation as is the treatment of Futte in "these pages"). I've known a few people, who here in Copenhagen had the good fortunes to hear Furtwängler live. What they all were raving about were "the Furtwängler sound", which we really get no clue of in most of his recordings, if any! I feel it's like my journey with Szell: I've always loved and adored his Mozart - then back in the days I got his Schubert 8th & 9th, and found it a bit unflexible and lacking in emotion. Well, that evaluation only lasted untill, when sometime in this century technology advanced, and it suddenly was possible to hear more clearly the sound, the tone and timbre of the orchestra in these works, and thus discover that Szell's flexibility lay hidden in the subtle shadings and nuances that he brought to the music, and then surprisingly discover, that this more intact experience of the sonority, completely changed the overall experience of his interpretation. I guess, the same would have been the case with Furtwängler, if technology would have allowed us to hear his music making with a more intact experience of the sonority. Ps. David clearly doesn't overall like Furtwängler's style and aesthetic aims (with a few exceptions), but am I the only one, who wonders, why a nation, who could boast of the likes of Erich Kleiber, Bruno Walter, Fritz Busch, to mention just a few, would choose a technically deficient dilletante as head of not only the Berlin Philharmonics, but also the Leipzig Gewandthaus Orchestra, if dilletante, indeed, was what he was?

[@VallaMusic]

@@jensguldalrasmussen6446 Schubert's Great C Major is a particular favorite of mine. And even with the poor recording quality, I feel I might have never fully known the real heart and soul of that sublime music without Furtwängler.

[@s28101]

Very inspiring chat, many good points. Today we have good conductors, and some strange ones. An example of goods, is Tugan Sokhiev. I have followed his work with the Toulouse orchestra for some years, and they get better and better. When he works he looks very interested in what the orchestra do, they work together, great. He is there with the orchestra. A great Beethoven 3 pianoconcerto with Leonskaja, wow, the public and orchestra flies together. A strange one: Casado (Cassabel). I an turned on the TV with a concert with Beethoven 1. pianoconterto with the fine Ian Lisecki, the orchestra was NDR. A very serious looking Casado, starts conducting. Wild, intens, it could have been a very heavy Stabat Mater. And it gets heavier and heavier, he hammered the stick wildly. The orchestra was unsure, they looked at each other, what to do. But at least the conductor was not interested in them, only his conducting. Poor Lisecki didnt have a chance. It ended like a funeral march.

[@matthewv789]

I think in America at least there is a huge shift toward female and non-white composers, as a response to recent events and cultural changes, which to a large extent means a shift to more contemporary music. The San Francisco Symphony’s recent season opener included not a single piece of standard classical/romantic repertory. (J. Adams, Ginastera, W. Shorter, Revueltas - though none by women.) My local regional orchestra has also been piling on thick the programming of works by living and female composers for the last couple of years at least. Prior to the last few years I would have agreed with you though, and maybe it’s different in places other than Northern California.

[@pedromoyaguzman7517]

I think there's a lot of overrated conductors nowadays, not just Germans. Which still surprises me as an orchestral musician, is the fact that there are some people, who are still trying to emulate the profile of old "Kapellmeister" wich is totally nonsense on these days, and -as you always say- in order to accomplish that, they try to control almost every aspect of playing, and the results are boring and mediocre versions of great masterpieces. The most notable examples are Currentzis, or Rattle.

[@oznitorres7976]

This chat also makes me think about the privilege conductors of yesteryear get in the esteem of classical collectors and listeners over newer conductors. As a person who came of age in the 90's, conductors like Solti, Haitink and Colin Davis were names that were more familiar, not Ormandy, Szell and Reiner.

[@martinbennett2228]

Question: What would an 'over-reverence' for the music of J.S.Bach look like?

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

Musical life today.

[@martinbennett2228]

@@DavesClassicalGuide So how could we tell if there could be too much reverence? - Not so easy when we are part of musical life today and the reverence has been more or less consistent for the past 200 years.

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

@@martinbennett2228 It's very easy. When John Eliot Gardiner publishes a book called something like "Music in the Kingdom of Heaven," it's way too much reverence.

[@martinbennett2228]

@@DavesClassicalGuide I suspect that the expression in the title tends to be received somewhat differently on opposing sides of the Atlantic (i.e. different significance of 'the Kingdom of Heaven').. But on Bach, I cannot think of any major composers of the last 200 or perhaps last 250 years who did not revere Bach.

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

@@martinbennett2228 You are overthinking this big time. Your first "suspicion" is, well, just plain weird, and the second strikes me as pretty much defining "excessive reverence." It is in any case an exaggeration (more "excessive reverence" on your part), since the "Bach cult" didn't take off until the mid 19th century. It couldn't have happened earlier, as most of the music wasn't published until the old Bach Edition got going. Anyway Tchaikovsky, to his credit, was not a big Bach fan. So there.

[@gregstanton7321]

Until you clarified and said "German-speaking world" I was certain that SOME Austrians might take offense being lumped in with the Germans. Anyway, in America it seems there is a distinct preference for European conductors (in Los Angeles, foreign conductors). And it is shocking that a certain American conductor who is so consistently fine, often adventurous, JoAnn Falletta, must seek work elsewhere. Though, back to the first point, there is a great bit in your book on Sibelius on how Brahms was the last incontestably great German symphonist (oh how the wolves howled), and I had to double-check and make sure Bruckner and Mahler were really Austrian.

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

Mahler was Czech, technically. Not that any of this BS really matters...

[@gregstanton7321]

@@DavesClassicalGuide The best composers are.

[@philippewacker5511]

@@DavesClassicalGuide 'Czech' was not a category at the time of Mahler's life. Mahler was an Austro-Hungarian German speaking jew born in Bohemia. Does that qualify him as German? Certainly not.

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

@@philippewacker5511 Like I said, he was Czech.

[@martinbynion1589]

Dave, just finished eating my tea (supper in America?) at home, minus my wife who is away (since you insist, it was homemade beef patties with a nice NZ Bordeaux-style blend) and this presentation of yours was the perfect length, style and quality to match my meal. You are a gastronomic as well as musical gem. Salut, Sir!

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

Thank you, and bon appetite!

[@mrwelch2004]

The second I saw this title, I knew who would be first in line to the gallows😃

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

Of course. Had to be.

[@michaelharrison2405]

The English overrate certain English conductors. Maybe some American critics overrate US conductors or conductors with US orchestral connections (e.g. Leonard Bernstein, George Szell). I like Central European music - guess what conductors I like?

[@langsamwozzeck]

Looking forward to the sequel to this video, "Are British Conductors Overrated?" It'll be Dave's shortest video yet: ten straight seconds of laughter, followed by, "Yes."

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

LOL!

[@djquinn4212]

I thought the same thing watching this video. Are conductors born in Germany and Austria who are steeped in the musical traditions of where they grew up and crash and burn when they do Sibelius/Rimsky-Korsakov/Ravel any better than the brits who are steeped in the traditions of Elgar, Finzi, and Vaughan Williams who also crash and burn when they conduct the aforementioned composers? Is Thielemann, who refuses to go outside his comfort zone, any better than Bryden Thomson? Or do they just know what they do well and stick to it? We criticize the hell out of Gardiner, Norrington, and the other early music guys for recording 19th and 20th romantic repertoire, maybe Thielemann and those brits who “stayed in their lanes” should be given some credit.

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

@@djquinn4212 There is nothing wrong with "staying in your lane" if you're really good at what you do (ex. Adrian Boult), but it's another thing if, like Thielemann, you stay in your lane to seek a career advantage because it tends to command automatic respect, and then you suck at it. The proof is always in the listening. But you are actually getting rather off-topic. The question was whether focusing on certain repertoire bolsters the impression of value and seriousness wholly apart from the audible results. I would contend that it does.

[@tarakb7606]

Some pretty good British conductors, past and present (Beecham, Boult, Goodall, Pinnock, Parrott, Elder, Davies...) Granted, Rattle and Gardiner are hugely overrated.

[@FlaneurSolitaire]

As a German music lover, I think you make a lot of good points here (and, despite a few snowflakes in the comments being offended, they really are rather common sense points). Let me just add one thing that you don't mention explicitly, though I guess it is implied in your little historical overview of how we got where we are: The main reason why "people aren't buying it anymore" ("it" being the old solemn reverent way of doing the old solemn revered German classical canon over and over and over) is simply the abundance of thrilling classical music that is available on disc - and is now even more accessible thanks to the internet and streaming services. People simply know they have a lot of stuff to choose from. And ultimately, conductors' (and soloists') reputations are simply no longer made in the concert hall, but in the recording studio. And that might actually be a good thing. (I can hear Glenn Gould quietly snigger in his grave.)

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

Very good point, and very true. Thanks for stressing it.

[@markfarrington5183]

But German conductors are so very ECCHHHT, lol. Interesting how Bruno Walter escaped @that@ kind of Teutonic reputation, even while he was a native Berliner who also embraced that very Austro-German "canon." Maybe he was too GEMUTLICH, not crotchety enough...Certainly he lacked the requisite, "look how profound I am" Beethovenian scowl...But IMHO, even if we only had his mono Mozart symphonies and his stereo Brahms cycle, those alone would save him from being overrated.

[@brianworsdale8985]

I think it is because Walter escaped the idea of a “German” conductor because he had such an international reputation at an earlier time in the century. Just thinking out loud here.

[@elwynjones763]

Just played the Boult Stereo CD of VW's Sea Symphony. You are dead right! What an exciting performance! Grandeur, gravitas and always moving on, even in the finale. I found the sound surprisingly good for early stereo, though high and a little sharp. I could hear the organ. The brass were crystal clear. even slightly brittle All held together splendidly by Boult. Nevertheless I would like a more modern sound for max. enjoyment. May be the Previn you recommend will do that?

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

The Boult has better sonics.

[@caleblaw3497]

While we have "overrated" German conductors, I can think of a quite few "underrated" German conductors - Carl Schuricht, Gunter Wand, Eugen Jochum, etc. They are underrated when compared to Karajan and Furtwangler. May be you can make a new video on underrated conductors? On some other thoughts, being a conductor is not only about conducting a music piece. You'd need to be a good trainer of the orchestra, good at controlling and handling the musicians, good at marketing and making yourself and your orchestra famous,..... In that sense Karajan is not overrated.

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

I talked about quite a few underrated conductors in this video.

[@TheCastlepoet]

I completely share your admiration for Schuricht and Jochum; they're both definitely underrated except by those who know and love their recordings--which, fortunately, are ample and varied. Wand was underrated until he became overrated, late in life (somewhat like Horenstein), mainly on the basis of his Beethoven, Bruckner, and Brahms, and because many regarded him as the last surviving old-school German conductor. I have the impression that nobody outside of Cologne and later, Hamburg, paid much attention to him until he came to London in the '80s and was "discovered" by British critics. Another German I would add to the "underrated" list is Franz Konwitschny, although his recorded output (or at least what I know of it) was more limited and, as far as I know, rarely strayed from the German repertoire. (Perhaps it would be more accurate to say that Konwitschny isn't so much underrated as neglected, except, again, for the few who value his recordings. I've read that he was adored and venerated by audiences in Leipzig, but I don't think his reputation extended outside of East Germany during his lifetime. Plus, he was relatively short-lived.) Othmar Suitner was another such conductor--actually better known in Japan than he was in Europe outside of (East) Germany during his lifetime, but thankfully he is represented by some quite impressive recordings (e.g., his Dvorak symphonies).

[@bernardohanlon3498]

Dave - greetings from the Penal Colonies where spring is upon us and the Dees have won the Premiership in the AFL. Now, there is one composer who is forever owned by the German Guild of Conductors - bonus clue: he starts with the letter 'B' and brings out your ursine side! Best wishes, B

[@vincentzincone8012]

I think they conduct for precision but sometimes miss on emotion!

[@christophercurdo4384]

I saw discussion of Furtwangler, Karajan and Thielemann coming! Very perceptive comments.

[@bbailey7818]

Furtwangler non German rep--his Tchaik 6 is a celebrated, oft lauded recording; though not to my personal taste, as many times as I've tried to "get" it. Anyway, outstanding Chat!

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

His Tchaik 6 is just average at best.

[@tarakb7606]

Yes, Boulez was good with 20th century music , but Gielen was at least as good, if not better. I quite agree about Christian "Molto Ponderoso" Thielemann. Most of what I have heard of his work is pretty awful.

[@edfromlongisland2623]

A very interesting discussion! I can't say that I disagree with much. BTW, I'll take Bernstein's work with the NYPO over Vienna any day!😊

[@adrianleverkuehn9832]

I mostly agree, but some (a few?) of the Vienna recordings are better, depending on taste, mostly.

[@davidaiken1061]

A splendid talk. It caused me to reflect on who my favorite conductors are, and--lo and behold--they tend to be Hungarian (Szell, Reiner, Ormandy, Fricsay, and Solti) rather than German. My favorite German conductor is Jochum; I think because he was such a benign presence on the podium and not egocentric. Two further recommendations for future talks on neglected composers: Martinu and Bloch. You did one on Martinu some time ago; another is due.

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

I did several Martinus.

[@davidaiken1061]

@@DavesClassicalGuide I didn't know. I'll have to look them up. Thanks for the tip.

[@adrianleverkuehn9832]

Those Hungarians were great conductors!

[@rezabahani7437]

thanks for introducing Constantin Silvestri, he is marvellous.

[@scagooch]

Interesting discussion.

[@samuelheddle]

An interesting case are the East Germans, many of whom actually are underrated. I always thought that their misfortune was that compared to the Eastern Bloc competitors, the Russian conductors had their own repitoire that they were considered masters of, and the Czech Philharmonic had a mystique that even Dresden couldn't match.

[@eddihaskell]

WTF? Kurt Masur was not underrated at Leipzig, neither was Sanderling, Keilberth, Kempe, Suitner, -- I can go on.

[@beigelbdriver]

I like Thielemann's Beethoven, but I'm a German! (-: But I wonder why some European countries, such as Germany and Italy, have produced so many good and well-known conductors, while well-known Spanish conductors can be counted on one hand. Don't they have good music schools?

[@patrickhows1482]

Germany and Italy had multiple courts and institutions where music was written. Spain only had the Court at Madrid and the Church, it wasn't until the late 19C that the musical infrastructure of orchestras, music schools etc. developed in Spain. Then the Civil War and it's aftermath had a negative effect on all the arts. It was not until the 1960s that economic growth enabled music and other arts to flourish in Spain.

[@alejandrosotomartin9720]

I would add to your point that without the sponsoring of the Court and the Church it would have been even worse.

[@chrislittle7665]

The best part about your musing on topics like this is its basis in the recorded evidence - keep on listening indeed!

[@b1i2l336]

BRAVO, and thank you so much for speaking the truth!

[@JackBurttrumpetstuff]

Thielemann… ugh.

[@eddihaskell]

The "takeout Chinese food" of modern German conductors because you can't remember what you listened to the next day.

[@theosalvucci8683]

I think that, in general, the Germans are overrated and the Czechs are underrated.

[@OuterGalaxyLounge]

Just because the Seig Heilers are mad downvoting, I'm giving you an upvote.

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

You're a true humanitarian!

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

@@thr4017 No don't clarify. This is about music, and we don't need to get into discussions of politics, semantics, or bad spelling. Don't go there, please.

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

@@thr4017 I don't think anyone is trying to be offensive. Snarky, maybe, but these are informal discussions and you have to give people some latitude--as long as it doesn't degenerate to outright name-calling. People are far too easily offended these days, to the point where it sometimes makes conversation all but impossible--and this kind of conversation, by post, absent continuity or intonation, is the worst possible kind.