WotC’s D&D is done- 52 reasons to move on to other RPGs

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[@DaveThaumavore]

Support the channel by joining my Patreon! www.patreon.com/thaumavore Sign up for my newsletter! bit.ly/ThaumavoreNewsletter

[@baklajankus]

I think Pinkertons already on their way to your house.

[@DaveThaumavore]

They'd be in for a rude surprise.

[@DM_Bluddworth]

@@DaveThaumavore I was going to say the same thing. Remember that scene from Ace Ventura w/ the shotgun sliding through the peep hole? 😂

[@NegatveSpace]

There are a lot of reasons but why do people keep making Pinkerton references when isn't it well established that was Hasbro?

[@DaveThaumavore]

@ I attack Hasbro in this video.

[@Grogeous_Maximus]

@@NegatveSpace They're the same. Hasbro owns WotC, and are of the same black-hearted strain of vampire.

[@monkeyapo8516]

I really wish the gaslighting by people who never try other ttrpgs would end! Any time I see someone call D&D beginner friendly because there is lots of D&D content on youtube makes me lose it - there are plenty of ttrpgs where you don't need a youtube video to learn how to play! This video was really cathartic.

[@DaveThaumavore]

Agreed. Glad the video helped.

[@philippemarcil2004]

Yeah, D&D is really complex compared to many others TTRPG.

[@tomoyuukinue2185]

thank you. Ive played most TRPG that dave covered and all I need is just a quiet afternoon to read it and a game session to test it out

[@politikh]

​@@philippemarcil2004Complexity is a virtue, not a vice when coupled with equally satisfying mechanics and roleplay opportunities. Sadly, D&D does not deliver on either. Even with a very good DM, the experience is always stiffled by an archaic system and tired tropes, as Dave so eloquently documented here.

[@shiranuiraccoon7521]

It took me like 30 minutes in a chill video call to explain Fabula Ultima in great detail ( thanks for reviewing this game Dave ). 5e isn´t easy, it´s hard as nails, aside from other editions Pathfinder 2e is the only system i played that felt harder than D&D ( which is sorta of intentional tbh ), but the abundancy of premade quality stuff paradoxically makes it easier to DM.

[@SSkorkowsky]

I wouldn't call 5e mechanics dated or tired. They updated the old D20 rules with Bonus and Penalty Dice and they do work well for what they're intended. Honing and tweaking mechanics is a good thing. Far better than throwing them out every few years for some gimmick for the sake of being new. No, 5e can't do everything. No game rules can. And I feel a lot of the frustration toward the mechanics is greatly due to the people insisting they can do everything and repeatedly failing. The 2014 PHB had a blurb on the front cover that read, "Everything A Player Needs To Create Heroic Characters for the World's Greatest Roleplaying Game." They don't have that on the 2024 version, sadly, but I respected its honesty. D&D is about *Heroic Fantasy.* People could argue all day long about how 5e can do everything and I could always point at that little blurb and say how even D&D says it's designed for Heroic Fantasy. That's its niche. I quit 5e in late 2015. We gave it a solid run, made some great memories, but in the end we realized it's simply not the game for us. We prefer Skill-Based mechanics for more than Character Class or Level-Based mechanics. The more time that's passed since we left 5e, the less it appeals to me. When the 2024 Edition dropped, I peeked at some of the videos people were making about the new Monk or new Bard or whatever, and as they listed all the class abilities and all that, all I thought was, "Nothing about this remotely appeals to me." It was liberating, honestly. Sort of like realizing that you're finally over that ex-girlfriend.

[@dungeonsanddobbers2683]

"No, 5e can't do everything. No game rules can" [Laughs in GURPS (and other systems designed as generic rules for GMs to tailor to their needs)]

[@MalcontentFlower]

@@dungeonsanddobbers2683 * A rule system can not do everything, unless the system takes 150 years to set up*

[@SSkorkowsky]

@@dungeonsanddobbers2683 Nope. No system can do everything _well_ . I say this as a huge fan of BRP.

[@Pee-z9n]

@@SSkorkowsky Some of the changes for 2024 are what killed any lasting interest I may have had. Ranger is particularly embarrassing and shows the limits of the current framework of the system pretty well. "We removed this feature, but you can just pick a spell" is, frankly, insane, and suggests to me this stuff is being made in a very short span of time and/or under extreme pressure.

[@NathanTZ]

@@dungeonsanddobbers2683 *Smirks in Fate Core/Accelerated*

[@Skimmer951]

Im so used to dave giving grace and thought to most games on the review tables and now he comes swinging with absolutely no mercy dang.

[@shawnpeterson2523]

Haha, yes I was a little surprised. I'm retrospect, I should not have been.

[@YannMiollan]

I didn't see Dave at all in this video? I saw Sigourney Weaver, an otter, Felix the Cat...

[@ElderGoblinGames]

Someone pushed Dave to review D&D and he threw the gloves off and lit them on fire!

[@nobodyinparticular5639]

Not gonna lie, getting people to move away from D&D is like pulling teeth. Literally had a discussion about how shit WoTC is and the guy I was talking to bought all the 2024 sets because “It’s what I know”

[@dungeonsanddobbers2683]

I genuinely believe that WotC have discovered a way to infuse their books (or cards, in MtG's case) with heroin. Because it's the only way to explain how people can look at the product, go "this is fucking terrible, and the company that make it are evil", and _still_ drop money on product.

[@Rukkus333]

There's also the Sunk Cost Fallacy to contend with; especially in the era of virtual tabletop subscription models. Everyone thought it would be a good idea to keep their dungeon maps and "minis" locked behind paywalls and now they feel locked into those systems.

[@nobodyinparticular5639]

@ Having been around for the birth of the virtual tabletop, watching it go from “fun little game accessory so you don’t have to spend money on psychical stuff” to a product that is basically the same cost as buying minis and maps but without a physical thing has been very depressing to watch.

[@dungeonsanddobbers2683]

@@nobodyinparticular5639 Yeah, NGL, watching the prices of PDF versions of books go from a fraction of the cost to almost the same as a hardcopy over the years has been utterly depressing. It's an infinitely duplicable file sitting on a hard drive, there's no reason beyond greed to sell it anywhere close to the price of a hardcopy.

[@nobodyinparticular5639]

@ I’m very much do the opinion that if a PDF is anything above 25 bucks I’m not buying it. Also what the hell happened to paperback game books? Why is every RPG in hardback? Like what happened to cheaper alternatives for people to play your games without having to spring 50 bucks per book?

[@_evillevi]

0:00 say no more, you convinced me still watching the whole video tho

[@Globbyismy_Hobby]

Same dawg same. 😂

[@gingercore69]

I was the 69th like

[@shinmalestat9272]

I refuse to touch 5e, especially after WotC went off the deep end in 2020.

[@gingercore69]

@@shinmalestat9272 i havent played 5e in a while, i either play path finder or the dark wood rpg... If posible TDWrpg, cos it less complicated hsn path finder and i like the character creation more

[@shinmalestat9272]

@@gingercore69 Im collecting 4e and PF1e material.

[@aaronabel4756]

D&D doesn't have a creative vision anymore. It's an empty shell of a game with no point of view, other than being a vehicle for maximizing profits.

[@Rukkus333]

Agreed. I think it's current direction is to be as generic as possible to maximize sales.

[@rkcpek]

I dont believe that they know how to maximize their sales at this point. Otherwise they would address these problems and fix it.

[@rikk319]

The system doesn't mean shit. The creativity of the GM and the players is all-important. A system won't save you from your lack of imagination, and a bad system can't get in the way of truly creative gamers.

[@matthewlane]

@@rikk319 "The system doesn't mean shit." No, it does. No matter how creative a GM, a bad system that does not facilitate play cannot be overcome by creativity, not without a disproportionate level of hard work, to the point of not being worth it.

[@rikk319]

@@matthewlane I've never been in a situation where I was using a bad system, then. The price of these game books precludes (one hopes) going out and buying them sight-unseen. Even back in the 80s, someone else would own a system first, we'd play it, and even if I liked it I didn't tend to have the money to just buy it outright. Lack of economic power can instill selective pressures, just like life.

[@AEGISDEFENSE]

Hyperborea, The One Ring, Mothership, Shadowdark, Traveller are what we play….we never looked back.

[@DuneArchitectGames]

So excited to get into Mothership. Really impressed with their companion app too!

[@TheNanoNinja]

I'm starting my first Traveller RPG campaign in the new year.

[@opscontaylor8195]

Shaowdark and Dragonbane feel more like D&D to me these days than the thing carrying the trademark.

[@petermcdonald4740]

After 2nd edition D&D I switched to Castles & Crusades. I collect RPGs and there are so many better choices than 5th edition clunkiness by smaller publisher games !! You will not be disappointed .

[@DUNGEONCRAFT1]

Good games.

[@nathanmorgan3647]

Give 'em hell, Dave. Give 'em hell!

[@gordonfreeman6305]

Wow! I'm shocked to see a creator being this blunt - good for you! WoTC / D&D 5e stopped getting money from me around the OGL time. So many cool other systems out there, and I'm happy to support other creators.

[@SauerK9765]

Love all the alternatives listed below each point, really helps drive home the point of all the amazing games that unlike 5E really expand the medium. Perhaps 5E's biggest failing is that after so many years it's just so dull, boring and sterile.

[@MaleficMist]

that and the lack of wanting to stray apart from "legacy" features ... most if not all modern TTRPGS have an action point system ( or just 1 action and a move in combat ), most have only the modifier and not the score, most embrace the asynchronous rules between the players and the gm thus leading to a better and more streamlined experience ... most other ttrpgs evolve while 5e after 10 years just rereleases itself with a balance patch instead of an update or even a new fresh evolved version ... I've tried a lot of ttrpgs and even the closest one to 5e ( nimble ) which i did a one shot off felt so freaking fresh and streamlined and it's what 5e could've been if greed and lack of passion wouldn't have been a thing

[@joeg451]

Honestly, I'm not a fan of the janky 3d avatars (I just found them distracting) or the poor audio quality in this video (at least it sounds a bit worse than your videos usually do; maybe you were using a different mic?) That being said, I love the message of this video and respect you putting it out there. Especially the stuff about it being increasingly difficult to justify giving money to Hasbro

[@DaveThaumavore]

I’m still working out the new format. It will improve.

[@karlranseier6885]

I second that. I love your videos, but the only thing the avatars are adding, is a distraction from what you are saying.

[@GldnMnky]

Thank you I thought I was the only one. The audio is just plain bad, scratchy, poppy, the tone jumps and dips... Did Dave's microphone break? And the Avatars...

[@lambrosfouloulis5714]

@@DaveThaumavore Yeah I'm heavily against the avatars as well, and I'm saying that only as a fan. The previous format was perfectly fine.

[@yohahn12]

Please don’t do this as a regular thing. Or even an infrequent one. I’m a fan, but very much less inclined to watch now, and unfortunately…no amount of improvement will change this. Even if they were not janky, the most high quality and polished avatars would at best still be distracting and add absolutely nothing to your videos.

[@DM_Bluddworth]

I played 5E back in 2015-16 and rarely had a good experience with the game system. I returned back to running D&D BECMI and then AD&D 1E and they were a return to what D&D was meant to feel like and meant to be (heroic fantasy w challenge). I’ve since moved on to Castles & Crusades and other OSR fantasy RPGs. My analogy for 5E is this: 5E is the McDonalds hamburger of TTPGS. Yes it sells more than any other hamburger, but no one would choose it over another burger if given the choice.

[@Decado1628]

I ran between two campaigns a combined total of 12 years of 5e. I had a great time with my players and the adventures we had were great but by the end of those campaigns I hated 5e system. Its fantasy avenger's nonsense, not D&D. I could have run the same campaigns with a different system, and it would have been even more enjoyable for me. Thankfully I have moved on to games likes Castles & Crusades, that I enjoy a whole lot more. There are so many better games out there than WOTC 5e. Thats the best analogy ever for D&D.

[@the_hellequin]

heh.. its kinda ironic of you to say that... seeing as 5e was designed with using 1e as a template. the whole point to the system was to go back to that style. and they did. 5e at its core is just like 1e and 2e. at least it was until about 2020.. then the mechanic power gaming pandering started to happen, and the surge of players/DMs has turned it into the shit show it is now

[@jonytequileiro]

This is funny because they aim that and Bounded Accuracy being the way it is, missed by so much that is ironic ​@@the_hellequin

[@beowylfen]

In this analogy FATAL is burger king

[@blipboigilgamesh7865]

​@@beowylfen I think that in this analogy fatal would be like swallowing a ticking timed explosive and having to disarm it from the outside using endoscopy equipment

[@terradraca]

"Overused fantasy tropes" That I don't agree on. That's a case of "if it ain't broke, don't fix it." People love to call them overused but then the moment you ask them how it should be instead, you get a blank stare.

[@marcruth4531]

It's also not limited to WotC. It has nothing to do with D&D, because they're *fantasy* tropes.

[@Daredhnu]

5e isn't even the best version of D&D let alone the best RPG on the market

[@JamesMillsNeutralBase]

What's your favourite version of D&D these days?

[@Daredhnu]

@@JamesMillsNeutralBase Personally I'm partial to 3.5e, I find the design of AD&D a little too convoluted and archaic though that might be due to me being too young to fully appreciate it when I played it, 3e is when I really came into my own with the game and the version I understood best, even mastered the grappling rules which were a nightmare compared to the rest of the system, and I never played 1e so I can't speak to that, been reading up on 4e and like 5e it has good ideas here and there but I wouldn't say it had the best implementation, 5e is fine but I find it to be lacking in the fidelity that I'm looking for in a game, they streamlined it too much.

[@Grogeous_Maximus]

​@@Daredhnu I'm ancient, and started with 2E. Nostalgia, aside, there isn't much to return to 2E for, honestly. I know people like their purist old school experience, but the older versions have slower and less fun combat, and clunky mechanics that slow down the actual roleplaying. Yes you could homebrew 1 and 2E, but 3.5 and Paizo's system is already the king of homebrew, so why bother.

[@jeg2826]

B/X is the simplest old school version to get into (try OSE or Basic Fantasy for an updated version). BECMI/Rules Cyclopedia version is the only complete version of the game, with everything from a domain management system that plays like pen-and-paper Civilization to mass combat to naval warfare to literally becoming a god and then playing as a god.

[@tooroundbrown]

@@JamesMillsNeutralBase I still play Ad&d 2e in person, every Wednesday, with a group of players ranging from friends in their 40s to my niece (she is 16, now).

[@missmeaghanj2482]

I've been so frustrated by how much oxygen D&D 2024 has been sucking up. It's barely different from 2014 and certainly not better.

[@DaveThaumavore]

@@missmeaghanj2482 Even some of my favorite KZbinrs can’t stop talking about it and that makes me sad.

[@Giozize]

I really must be in the wrong (or most accurately right, being honest) circles, because I have seen so little conversation about dnd 24 that I honestly assumed no one gave a shit. This is the first video I've been recommended about it in a very long time

[@MaleficMist]

so true

[@samdurfee6093]

@@DaveThaumavoreexplv3 also seems to think the game is fine and better than 2014. There are mountains of Homebrew to the base game mechanics that are meant “Fix” the game. 2024 barely changes anything so the underlying system issues still exist. Spell casting is still broken the power imbalance between Martials and Mages is still present. The dominance of Dex for physical skill is still there, same for Wis and Mental skills. Monster design is unchanged so CR still makes no sense. The DND KZbinrs are clinging on to the new edition as if their livelihoods depend on it. Oh… Wait… We can point out how honestly shit the new edition still is and how horrible WOTC are but until the dnd KZbinrs figure out how to survive without WOTC they’re just gonna shill. That’s unfortunately the real reason everyone jumped on WOTC during the OGL scandal it deeply effected their income and so they turned. Then it was fixed now they’re on the wagon again. I give it maybe 6 months before ppl actually start to turn against New dnd. Once they manage different income streams.

[@talscorner3696]

As a side note, give Ed Greenwood's YT channel a watch ^^ His retelling of the Forgotten Realms (you know, the man "only" wrote them xD) is much different and, imo, much more interesting and flavourful than WotC's

[@DaveThaumavore]

I definitely will, thanks!

[@dungeonsanddobbers2683]

@@DaveThaumavore Just be wary that the "flavour" of Ed Greenwood's FR also includes things like "public holidays are celebrated with incest orgies".

[@Bonehead_Paladin]

I love Ed's videos so much, they are so concise, passionate and well put together and they made me appreciate the forgotten realms in a way that Wotc themselves can only ever attempt and fail to accomplish

[@mr.selfdestruct7928]

yup. this. DnD is only good at marketing and the renown of the brand, the rest it lackluster as fuck

[@burningphoneix]

I get that the DnD WotC settings are tired (especially since they've long since been removed from their original creators) but I'm starting to get tired of how so many indie RPGs either fall into incredibly whimsical or incredibly dark territory. So many of them seem to land on the "Just before Armageddon/Apocalypse/Endtimes" as a setting for some reason when that niche never existed before. Also lots of Call of Cthulu clones.

[@politikh]

True, I feel the same. But the beauty of any of these systems is: you can tone down (or eliminate) the whole "doom & gloom". Insert levity. Inject humour. Heck, even in dark times, I'd be the first one to crack jokes about what is happening to lighten the mood! 😂

[@Azweepei]

Nope. This is the wrong take. You aren't looking at all at the indie rpg scene. You don't want to find another game, and that's on. Just stop trying to justify it.

[@burningphoneix]

@@Azweepei It's the correct take because JUST from the list of RPGs that dave has reviewed this year that he's featured in this video we have three: Pirate Borg (and most Mork Borg inspired projects), Our Brilliant Ruin and Infaernum that all have the conceit that we're playing in the End of Times and that's just from the titles he's reviewed in the past year. I find it odd that this world building device, previously uncommon, has become more common lately. Also, I do not need to justify anything. I've never played 5e (the only 5e product I ever bought was the Essentials kit and it went unplayed). The games I play are Mongoose Traveler, Cyberpunk 2020 and Twilight 2000 4E.

[@dungeonsanddobbers2683]

TBF, the Forgotten Realms is probably the one DnD setting that hasn't been removed from its original creator, thanks to the ridiculous contract WotC got grandfathered into when they bought TSR (it's hilariously stacked in Ed Greenwoods favour, and if WotC break any of the terms ownership of the setting and all its content reverts back to him)

[@Aran_MD]

Same. I would really like to try "another D&D" but it's always some strange hyperbolic take on the genre. I really just want "fantasy + magic + combat without checking the manual every 10 minutes". And sometimes there's that but with overly simplistic character creation. I gotta try dungeon world sometime, so far that seems to be more or less what I'm interested in.

[@LupusLore-l5c]

I don't think I have a problem with dwarfs and all that being the same but it would be nice if they didn't just copy paste the same thing in every world and tell everyone everything exists in all worlds defeating the point.

[@slaapliedje]

I think the problem with 5e is that it doesn't even matter if you are a dwarf, elf, etc. They are just cosplay to get darkvision in new editiotions. In older editions, they had flavor, and you couldn't be a dwarvish wizard, for example. The game needs some spice, it is very flavorless.

[@laipplst]

Agreed. So many players do anything for dark vision. I started having dark vision players go temporarily go blind if a bright light was flashed in their face when using their dark vision. But totally agree with Dave’s assessment here. D&D was initially fun, but over the decades, there’s just so many more evolved RPGs

[@slaapliedje]

@laipplst I stopped playing in the 90s, never played 3rd edition, and had switched to GURPS by then.

[@shawnpeterson2523]

I didn't allow darkvision anymore. There is nothing it did that makes the game better.

[@beowylfen]

@@slaapliedjeI dunno I kinda disagree with tying class to player race. I kinda like how Pathfinder 2 handled it where player ancestry ends up mattering more due to being a source of abilities. Though I started with 5e and enjoy a power fantasy dungeon crawler because it’s just kinda fun for me still

[@patrickrobles1036]

A big thing for me is being turned off by lifestyle products. Meaning anything that has a large group of people that uses the product (or what have you) as the lynchpin of their personalities. I’ll use the product but I don’t want anything to do with the subculture, which is very problematic when it comes to an RPG.

[@DoctorTopper]

The original OGL clone no longer uses OGL. The company are great guys who support veterans and schools. "Castles & Crusades" is sort of like D&D except its exactly just D&D in all the ways people want. I should add the system is actually flexible instead of pretending to be.

[@GrecoRomanNinja]

What really killed DnD for my casual work group was the messy way they incorporated the 2024 stuff into the Beyond app. The app used to be a great way for the more casual new players to create and manage characters. But now the app is a hodgepodge of versions with multiple copies of basically everything, and the toggles and filters simply add confusion for new (and old) players. "Do I want to add the regular bedroll or legacy bedroll to my inventory?" "Which spell version should I add?" "Why does my monk do more unarmed damage than our PHB says?" Ugh. Luckily there are other games to play.

[@coppermutant]

What they really need is more artwork with half head buzz cuts, dyed hair, and sarcastic grins on the heroes.

[@budgroeng5115]

B-but they are so cool and quirky!

[@stever.8029]

Agreed! The artwork in the new PHB is awful and insufferable.

[@steelmongoose4956]

And food-based adventures!

[@help_im_trapped_in_a_square]

More prom episodes 😂

[@consumptionof]

My friends and I started playing Old-School Essentials recently. However you feel about OSR, it's great having decades of high-quality adventures and supplements to burn through. We're all having a great time with it.

[@lexington476]

27:02 What does 'mid-apocalyptic' mean? The narrator says it several times and I've never heard it before.

[@DaveThaumavore]

The story and action takes place on the middle of the events that cause the apocalypse, as opposed to taking place after everything is destroyed, deserted, decayed, etc.

[@mitchellmoody9309]

Cyberpunk red is the ttrpg that made me realize what I was missing. It’s insane just how much better the experience is when there’s a single cohesive world to set the story in

[@MarkCsigs]

If you need to present 52 reasons to convince someone it's time to stop playing D&D, maybe it's not time for them to stop playing D&D.

[@DUNGEONCRAFT1]

Preach! We agree on almost every point to some extent. I think from an advertising perspective D&D's generic, vanilla world is a strength. It's accessible. And I think the Core rules are strong and I recommend D&D Hardcore Mode who want to play heroes, not superheroes.

[@xionkuriyama5697]

Thank you, thank you, thank you. I'm tired of the "I'm not gonna trash DnD" or "I don't mean to be negative" in videos like this--5e DnD is a garbage system and I'm sick and tired of pretending it isn't. Someone saying it on KZbin, unabashedly, and without blaming it on culture war things that don't matter, is incredibly cathartic.

[@Abumustard6364]

I find that one of the most annoying parts of running 5e is that players always expect it to be run the same, the same tropes, every class and race combination should be on the table, every spell, every magic item. It's become predictable and boring. I understand that it can be a strength to have the shared ground with other people in a "community", but it's become standardized to hell.

[@DaveThaumavore]

@@Abumustard6364 in a way, it’s not even the players’ fault. The game is just so bland and mediocre out of the gate because it was designed in a corporate environment to appeal to as many people as possible. Thus it excels at nothing and fails to inspire.

[@Woodclaw]

​@@DaveThaumavoreI blame the fact that most of the time the cycle of play is the same. First and second edition had the idea that adventuring was a mean to an end. In BECMI, after 9th level you became noble and the cycle of play changed radically. At a certain point, adventuring became a goal in and of itself, resulting in the need to put every option on the table for the sake of variety, but getting the opposite result. Instead of creating variety, giving every option all the time pushed forward the idea of "gaming the system", finding the most optimal combination and abuse the hell out of it.

[@DaveThaumavore]

@ some the biggest D&D channels on YT got big from doing character build videos. So weird to me.

[@jasonnewell7036]

I'm right there with you on the frustration that people obsess about D&D when there are thousands of better games out there.

[@AJarOfYams]

I agree that D&D is zombified and perhaps dying, but to say that it is gone is selling the hide before the bear is shot. D&D is dying, not dead

[@barachiel9767]

Barring the corporate-related points, would you also bundle D&D-adjacent games like Pathfinder 1E/2E or Tales of the Valiant under many of these same points?

[@DaveThaumavore]

I've never read of Paizo doing anything even remotely horrible. The last big news from them was that their employees successfully unionized.

[@barachiel9767]

@@DaveThaumavore I guess I was more referring to the games and systems themselves rather than the corporate policies or conditions. On the surface at least, wouldn’t PF and/or TotV also be using similar tired mechanisms, tropes, etc? Also, thanks for the reviews-some of the best in the business.

[@dungeonsanddobbers2683]

@@DaveThaumavore Paizo are well known for stiffing their freelancers.

[@D16Nichevo]

@@barachiel9767 Pathfinder has a lot of internal variety so for every vanilla thing it also has something more unusual. Do a Google image search for "pathfinder inner sea map explained" and check the first couple of results. The same applies to things like classes and ancestries. Though I would agree the baseline "spirit" of PF is the same as D&D; it seems more iterative than revolutionary. Mind you, what I said above is not that different to D&D, which had vanilla Forgotten Realms but also rather unique Dark Sun (and others). Though I think it's true to say that D&D doesn't really give much love to its weird and wonderful settings nowadays.

[@RiktigaFimpen]

I'd bunch Pathfinder together with some of this criticism. I've had a lot of fun running it for quite some time ago. Lots of good memories. Pathfinder definitely is it's own thing, but it still felt like D&D to me. Each splatbook added more and more mechanisms. And then came the "feat"-creep, with hundreds of feats between each books. But I would gladly play PF again before even touching D&D 5E. The setting in Pathfinder is way better IMO.

[@Snowie7826]

I won't stop playing, but I sure as hell don't pay for any official dnd content

[@iantaran2843]

Astonishing Swordsmen and Sorcerers of Hyperborea deserves more attention Peak setting

[@ProfSplendorFaction]

Why are people saying DnD is over? You still have e access to the old books. No one is forcing you to buy the new books to keep playing. They can't take away the old versions by simply releasing new books.

[@LaBlueSkuld]

My friends and I switched from 5th Edition to Pathfinder 2nd Edition and we never looked back. But we also play systems like Call of Cthulhu, Bluebeard's Bride, Cyberpunk RED, Dread and Skate Wizards: it all comes down for what we're looking for. But we never miss 5th Edition.

[@jasperjaguar5453]

Gave up d&d years ago. Now I rock Shadowdark, OSE, DCC, Lamentations of the Flame Princess, cy_Borg, Worlds Without Number etc.

[@tuomasronnberg5244]

​@@aurvaySad but true. Those games are just D&D with a coat of paint - stats, classes, levels, d20 with binary pass/fail mechanic... The only one that is even slightly different is cy_borg, and even that is a reskin of a grimdark D&D lite hack 😂

[@jasperjaguar5453]

@@aurvay Correct. I want to play D&D without supporting Hasbro/wotc. Mission accomplished 👍

[@jasperjaguar5453]

@@tuomasronnberg5244 Correct. I want to play D&D without supporting Hasbro/wotc. Mission accomplished 👍

[@JabsJibo]

​@@aurvay they're not 5e though, for all the reasons mentioned in the video.

[@testtest648]

Absolutely. I switched to Shadowdark 2 years ago. I've had so much fun with it! I've added on several mechanics like running business, towns, nations, and mass combat of armies.

[@rabidcentrist]

I refunded my 50th edition dnd order. If i want to run a campaign, i'll just d/l it off some service. WotC is defunded until they give their head a shake. 😊

[@myntypaws]

This sort of stuff is why I love watching your videos. You have such a deep and genuine love of roleplaying games and want to see people finding something they can love in it as well. This hobby has something for everyone and you sharing so many games really shows newcomers and veterans of these sorts of games just how many options there are. This video is a masterpiece and clearly comes from a place of love and you can hear it from every word. Also because I love these games I'll mention a few of my faves as well: Mausritter: Free rules light game about playing small frail mice in a deadly dangerous world full of loot to bring home EZD6: Made for fun and quick play. Makes incredible one shots. Root the RPG Fantastic powered by the apocalypse game about a woodland at war with detailed factions, a reputation system and great systems both for talking or fighting your way to success. My personal fave

[@MILDMONSTER1234]

Lancer and Pathfinder win again

[@pewprofessional3181]

I'm learninng TSR's D&D, mainly B/X and AD&D 2e. Soooo emensely enjoying these, and way easier to learn as a new DM.

[@the_hellequin]

...you just said.. the 2 editions that have caused the MOST arguing over rules and interpretations.... was "way easier to learn" lol. well.. i guess if you're enjoying it.. carry on and gg

[@pewprofessional3181]

@the_hellequin Ya I started with 5e, it's so much more overly complex and a bastardized version of what once was great.. And there's plenty of people arguing over dumb things everyday. Never had rules interpretations become an argument playing these older editions. There is absolutely nothing complicated about the core rules of B/X or AD&D, Nobody, ever, has claimed B/X is complicated, lmao!

[@crankysmurf]

I love D&D -- I've been playing the game since the early 1980s (having played all editions except for OD&D). The OGL fiasco reminded me that I don't need WotC to play D&D. I've stopped buying 5E books (I just find WotC creatively lazy -- "DMs, you make it up!" (see 5E Spelljammer's lack of ship-to-ship combat rules)) so I've been hunting down and buying older edition books I've lost or never had (that's hundreds of dollars not going into WotC's pockets).

[@Grogeous_Maximus]

Creating homebrew and transcending rulesystems and settings, was always part of the experience. It's what makes TTRPGs (and even boardgames) so incredibly sustainable - they are ours to modify and remake. I love that we don't need permission from WotC to change or rebalance anything in OUR games.

[@gavinbaker7421]

Superb video! And thank you for the massive list of recommendations of other RPGs! Three of them stuck out to me to explore more, so huzzah!

[@atomicbarbarian7372]

I never stopped playing 3.5. Dungeons and Dragons was perfected with that system. Everything that came after has been a step backwards.

[@robdabanks]

That of yours earned you a subscribe. Also, what you said about WOTC was also 100% true in 2013 when I worked there. Magic did the heavy lifting and we were the smallest team among thousands who all dressed in suits, but didn't have a lot of substance behind those ties.

[@BillWiltfong]

Until Hasbro uses the power of their bought and paid for politicians to make it illegal to own RPG material that wasn't purchased from them, the following will always be true: There are hundreds of RPGs, and dozens of them are very good. Never settle for the hype or the trend.

[@s.dalner7245]

I personally like the 5E within the context of what it was designed as - Heroic Fantasy. At least, it works for me. Still, I've always wanted to branch out, try more TTRPGs - currently I've been playing AD&D 2E, D&D 5E and Vampire: The Masquerade. I've wanted to play a game of Pathfinder 2E, try out Daggerheart and whatever MCDM's new thing turns out to be. But it's just not that simple, switching systems. Many groups have spend years, perhaps decades, getting entrenched into whatever their favorite edition of D&D was, because that's what worked for them. And it probably still does today. Immersing yourself in another system takes time, not to mention that it probably needs someone to get so familiar with the system that they actually could GM the thing. Time and effort spent, to just FIGURE OUT if you like the system. That's just not an effort-to-output situation a lot of people wanna do.

[@the_hellequin]

5e wasnt designed as heroic fantasy any more than any other edition of D&D or even most fantasy rpgs for that matter. it was designed to be simple. no extra rules. hell you're not even supposed to make skill checks 90% of the time outside of combat. but power gamers fucked that all up by wanting to bend, abuse, and exploit mechanics

[@s.dalner7245]

@the_hellequin These things are not mutually exclusive. It can be simple too. But the Core Rulebooks (or at least the DMs Guides) explicitly call out Heroic Fantasy as the default sub-genre for D&D 5e. And most mechanics, from Spells and the features to it's heavy focus on combat encounters emphasize this demonstrably more than many other Editions and TTRPGs. That's not my opinion, that's the actual mission statement.

[@mattmayhem4377]

I really love your honesty regarding your feelings about the system, I stumbled into D&D through actual plays like D20 that run it, but after watching seasons of the show using other systems (like Aabria Iyengar with Kids on Brooms), I realised how cool other systems are, now I have a list of RPGs I want to buy and run, and am hoping to move on from 5e to something else when I finish my second D&D campaign, currently the main one is me waiting for DC20 to progress in its development, but in future I’d really like to jump around from genre to genre with the systems that are best suited for them, and your channel has massively helped me start to do that! So thanks a tonne!

[@InterstellarBrad]

I started TTRPGs with 5e, but quickly branched out to other systems (Monster Hearts, Delta Green, CoC, Torchbearer). I got the impression that 5e is a kitchen sink approach compared to some of those I mentioned. There isn't a vision to what it wants to be, which I thought was a good thing at first. We ended up pulling things from everwhere and homebrewing a lot, and ignoring a lot of the rules.

[@penndragyn3728]

Honestly, same. My table kind of came up with some rules we'd change after our first campaign, pulled from things like Pathfinder and older D&D editions, and some other stuff we figured was cool. Not really having a set world to play in wasn't such a problem for us since we kind of make our own world as part of it. (All of us are writers on the side, so it's kinda fun seeing them come up with secrets and surprises the other players will have to discover)

[@Antdevamp]

My players are newbies, but I snuck in MASKS: The New Generation and Monsters of the Week. They are easy to teach, and 'Tome of Mysteries' is sitting right there!

[@leandronc]

My 2 favorite PbtA systems, alongside the classic Dungeon World. I've found they are great for newbies because of the "fiction first" approach of Moves.

[@booksbricksandboards783]

It’s been a bit since I’ve watched your channel, and I honestly can’t remember why I stopped. Great video! Great points! Way to be willing to speak your mind and point out business practices you don’t agree with.

[@alexisglaab2572]

One of my favourite things about Pathfinder is that even when you drop all the rules, the game world is just fantastic. You want techno barbarians and ancient crashed spaceships? Pathfinder's got it. You want the ruins of an ancient civilization that was greater than anything that currently stands? PF's got it. You wanna fight a giant demon who hates trees? Pathfinder's got it. It helps that Paizo is actually a good company, with unionized workers, and the higher-ups all actually play PF.

[@tjduck85]

I'll be honest - and this is just a personal preference issue - but anytime someone tries to sell me a game where there is a non-optional magical corruption or magical mishap table, then that is a HARD PASS for me. I think that magic can be incredibly interesting without being punishing for the magical PC.

[@fishyfishyfishy500akabs8]

Also fun fact the wild magic sorcerer table can tpk you at level 1 and severely injure the party until they reach level 5+ because one of the results is “you fireball yourself and everyone around you for alot of damage”

[@collinsequeira6160]

​@fishyfishyfishy500akabs8 I know you're just saying that's a thing that can happen if you make that choice/etc... but also that was the whole point of tjduck tho You don't have to play a wild sorc if you don't want to. Wild magic's whole thing is the mishaps and randomness, but if you don't like that you have over a dozen other subclasses to pick from that don't force you into using that

[@A.I.Friends]

Try 1st edition AD&D. Lots of fun and it is great hearing Gygax's original guidance for role-playing games built into the rules books.

[@the_hellequin]

if by guidance you mean the worst writing ever, horribly convoluted rules that you almost need a cryptography degree to understand.. sure.

[@A.I.Friends]

@@the_hellequin Nothing convoluted about it. Everything in 1st edition is perfectly balanced with the exception of three rules that I alter in every campaign. I took one look at 3rd edition--realized its weakeness, made an M-U with maxed out HP. That character lasted longer than any other player. Armor class in 3rd edition is virtually useless for players. Monsters hit them all the time. Challenge ratings are way off. The system is completely broken. Then they watered down all the races and added a bunch of boring feats.

[@the_hellequin]

@ nothing you said describes 3e. it does describe 5e however. And yes it’s convoluted, so much it had a 304 page encyclopedia to explain all of Gugax’s bad writing

[@blackstone777]

​@the_hellequin majority of us gamers back in the day would disagree. Sounds like a "you" problem, because you're not smart.

[@the_hellequin]

@@blackstone777 yeah you're right.. there's only a 300+ page rules cyclopedia to clarify those rules because of the writing and arguing. you're also assuming i'm one of said people who had problems with the rules. i'm not. i don't now, and i didnt back when i was 13 and running 2e. nice projection though there bud. sounds like its a "you" problem that you're insecure about being smart tbh

[@mofarminotaur]

Came for the witch-hunt, stayed for the shopping list.

[@Gyrocoptor]

I just wish more games were available on store shelves. It's hard to recommend a game to any of my friends when it's out of print or only available as a PoD, and game stores near me only ever stock 5e stuff. If Savage Worlds, Traveller, Call of Cthulhu, DCC, Mork Borg, etc. could be on the shelf next to D&D, especially of larger retailers, I think you would see a larger variety crop up. Unfortunately, there's no way for niche companies to get their stuff onto said shelves, so it ends up a vicious cycle of people only knowing D&D because no other games are on that store shelf.

[@ZachLeeWright]

My personal favorite is Runequest.

[@aaronabel4756]

RuneQuest is amazing. RuneQuest has been around about as long as D&D yet managed to keep it's soul and creative vision alive.

[@ZachLeeWright]

@@aaronabel4756 Gah! I forgot to capitalize the 'Q'! I've brought shame on my cult.

[@xibalbalon8668]

"That's a classic corporate accounting move but it doesn't make it right" It makes it worse tbh

[@CaydenSworn]

Proud defector over to Vampire: The Masquerade!

[@colinsmith929]

The reason DnD is so popular is simple. Go to the LFG subreddit and try to wade through the deluge of people looking to play. The closest competitor is Pathfinder and that's just DnD again but with different crunchy rules. Right now I just play modern fantasy games just because its soooo much easier to let the RP flow since its our world. Where do secret agents do their meetups? The busy night club of course, ladies drink free tonight. What kind of music? There is a guy that looks like Shaggy with piercings on a keyboard leading a rave. Everyone know what these people and places look like. Sprinkle in werewolves or cthulu conspiracies and that's the crazy imagination I'm here for.

[@polyhedron3386]

I take it this video is…not sponsored by WOTC

[@purplebunz]

After my group quit dnd, we found so many other great games. Our group's go tos are pf2e for DnD style epic fantasy, Monster of the Week and the Ghostbusters RPG (yes, it's real and good) for quick fun, Warhammer Fantasy for a middleground between PbtA games and pf2e in complexity, and actual board games through tabletop sim when we are tired of roleplaying.

[@steambub]

Yeah, ACKSII just released. Why bother with D&D One/5.5e/6e/2024 when you can just adventure, conquer, and become kings. Also, a suggestion for the sidebar, could you have it around the two-thirds from the bottom. The video control buttons, and scrub bar get in the way every time I pause the video to read the text.

[@floofsnoof]

It’s been a struggle to try and hook my friends on another system outside 5E as I’ve run a fair few, what finally made us actually switch was my friend taking an interest in GM’ing something else. Happy to be playing one of the many other RPG’s sitting on my bookshelf instead of another 5E Campaign lol. (I have a bunch of unused RPG books)

[@leandronc]

I got into other RPGs with 13th Age and Dungeon World, right after 4e died. I was surprised by the quality and creativity displayed. Never looked back, and I've played literally dozens of different games since. My favorites are DCC, Powered by the Apocalypse games, and Heart: The City Beneath. I played some 5e when it came out, but after WotC's "profit at all costs" stance, I'm not touching that anymore.

[@Swatman170]

Only one of my friends runs 5e now, and nothing against them doing so. The groups I'm involved with largely play Warhammer Fantasy 4e, One Ring 2e (Most FL Games, honestly), Star Wars FFG, a few OSR games, a few Anime Fangames (Pokemon Tabletop and Dragonball Universe). I'm actually working on my own system for a Fantasy worldbuilding project I've been going at for the last 5 years based on Chaosium's d100 Basic Roleplaying. I met a few of the devs at Chaosium over the last few gaming conventions I went to and I was inspired to start my own thing.

[@dukejorgas3693]

I can also recommend Warhammer Fantasy 4E. The setting is very well written in the books, some of the cities have potentially infinite content with everything written about them. The pre-written adventures are almost all excellent, often have interesting situations and puzzling morality, and inspire you to make your own. Gameplay is challenging, but rewarding for enterprising players capitalizing on their skills... I could go on. Just very fun, and I was able to adapt a 5E group to it pretty easily.

[@artistpoet5253]

I don't think my table has played 5e since we went through the Essentials starter box. We've been playing our homebrew and a slew of OSR. Black Sword Hack is our next run.

[@Moebius_Metroido]

Absolutely true story! Thanks for this. There are so many people who think D&D is all there is and refuse to try other things that it makes blood shoot out my nose. Free League alone puts D&D to shame with not only the quality of the games themselves, but also their production values. They have way better art and the books themselves are contructed so much better. Even if you want that generic fantasy genre, games like Dungeon Crawl Classics are so much more interesting and actually bring backc that sense of wonder that made RPGs exciting in the first place. Anyone who thinks D&D is the greatest is blind to reality and it's a tragedy.

[@DanteCorwyn]

I think its also an issue of exposure. Book shops, at least in the UK, are also selling RPGs now, but rarely anything not D&D. I still find it shocking that in Aberdeen, there's 4 game shops, two host games but only seems to be D and D, one comic shop has a huge range of supplements from the 90s that aren't shifting, and another is the only one that stocks Cthulhu locally.

[@danroberts007]

I play in a bi-weekly Fallout 2D20 campaign. The core game isn’t that complicated; I find it pretty simple 99% of the time. The bulk of the complexity is in the rules for modifying your equipment. Modiphius has tried to present a game in which players can do all the same things you could in Fallout 4, so modding your weapons and armor can get crunchy, but as those activities will always be happening outside of combat, GMs can time their sessions so that modding happens at the start of the next session, giving players time to review their many options and decide what they want to try and create. Then you roll some dice, see if you’ve succeeded and move on with the game. Leveling up is super-simple. You can do it in seconds, but I’d advise you plan out your long-term PC goals so you know which Perks you want to choose in advance. Once you’ve got a roadmap for 3-4 levels worth of Perks it’s easy. Top tip: take the Intense Training Perk every other level, as that bumps one of you S.P.E.C.I.A.L. stats by one point. Pick a weapon type to specialize in, make the corresponding Skill type a “Tag” skill (increasing likelihood of crits) and put some skill points into that in your early levels.

[@deedoublejay]

Happy new year and keep up the great work promoting alternatives. Honestly, though, I'm personally at a saturation point. You name dropped so many titles in this video that I thought "Oh yeah, I meant to check that one out," but I can't read them as fast as they're released.

[@dantedetoussaint209]

Yep 0:01 you won me over, say no more I'm in. I'll watch the video. And as I'm watching I agree and many of these points I bring to my friends and to some it's like I'm trying to do a crime or something like that. Appreciate the recap from III in ttrpgs of the year. Edit Wait wait are you in whiterun

[@Grimlore82]

Matthew Colville has a great video about how 5e is basically the oatmeal of RPGs. Definitely suggest everyone to watch it. Index Card RPG, OSE, Shadowdark RPG, Crown & Skull, just to name a few. I'm taking a break from D&D official and am diving into Shadowdark RPG, Crown & Skull and the OSR. I've been in the hobby since the TSR era, and damn if I don't miss those days. It's been a great seven years with 5e but you gotta follow your heart!

[@ce5122]

No shade to ShadowDark but it really shouldn't be considered different to 5e, it's a tooled down 5e with some OSR house rules stapled on. Part of the problem with WOTC is people are absolute slaves to the 5e system so moving from 5e to ShadowDark isn't helpful in breaking that but it does at least stop supporting WOTC and supports indie creators.

[@AdamWhistle1]

A question: how much do you think these criticisms applies to Pathfinder 2e? As a Pathfinder GM who has been doing it for a year, I feel that some points still do or could be made. Namely: overused fantasy tropes; it's really just about combat (anything that isn't combat is awkward and requires heavy GM lifting); 5 terrible for beginners (better than 5e but you still NEED the webapp to properly make a character); 6 superpower fantasy is the mainline and while leveling is better, the players are still the more powerful on average; 7 unfocused kitchen sink magic system (less so than 5e but still you just have magic). I would also tentatively argue 2 or maybe 3: if you asked me what Golarion is about, I would have no idea. Something about lack of prophecy?

[@SuperMattMart]

I feel like the modular approach to ancestries, classes, and archetypes help you break from stale fantasy tropes... Like my poppet inventor who built his own boat construct and fights with a fishing pole. The setting taken as a whole I think is broad, but each region has very detailed context which keeps things from just being a random mishmash. The rest I think you're right... Still a high fantasy setting, it's not easy for beginners, and it takes custom subsystems to give non - combat encounters real stakes. I don't think it's "stale"... I think it's a good high fantasy game that continues to get better at what it does and is backed by a great company. But there are other games out there if you want something different.

[@ElderGoblinGames]

29:00 man do I feel you.. it's strange to see so many brilliant games being overlooked just to talk about the difference between 1's and 2's on an update of a druid ability 😅 You're not alone my friend.

[@danielbertola7868]

The 2024 DMG is more of the same. There are a few improvements to layout, with some new tips and mechanics for mobs, fear, AC/HP for doors, etc. Most of this copies better books. The magic item award tables are better, and of course they added bastions which seem cool. However, it took me forever to find the currency award tables, which are not in the Treasure section but are at the end of the Adventure chapter (p120-120). Make it make sense. The Settlements section is a few small paragraphs and a page of mediocre tables. What!? No world building help there. In fact, most of the book is fluff. If the '24 DMG had a section on trees, it would read: "Trees are a vital part of any adventure. They can be big if it suits your world, or they can be small. They could be short, or if it fits better into your campaign, they can be tall. Invite your players into a wooded area and describe the bark as being smooth, or perhaps rough. Maybe the leaves are thick and green, or dead and dried." End. Nothing of any real value, and it just fills the page. Maybe a table for rolling the color of the local foliage. Come on! Cram that thing full of world building tables and huge pools of ideas. Every section starts to feel this way. Just fast-food, all oil and grease and no substance. The more I read the more it feels phoned in. I don't want expansion books, modules, or 6-7 volumes across my bed so I have some real DM resources at my fingertips. I already do this and most of the books are off brand. It's supposed to be the damn DMG! All in all, it is an improvement on the '14, but other than a few bookmarks, this will still be a book for magic items. Massively disappointed.

[@driver1775]

One of the things I love about this video is that most folks writing in the comments could add another 50 role-playing games to the list. Thanks for a really enjoyable video, and for highlighting so many fantastic games!

[@JustinMickles]

Between Shadowdark, Dragonbane, Fabula Ultima, and MANY other games I don’t own yet I don’t see myself ever cracking a WotC book open ever again

[@arielle2745]

💖💓💕💯👏 I couldn’t agree with you more. I started playing D & D in 1979. I gradually lost interest years ago until today, when I’m not even tempted to play at all. I ❤ the new Indy games! So much creativity and depth in their fresh new perspectives and mechanics. You did a great overview of the WotC sketchy business practices while recommending a wide variety of terrific alternatives!

[@davidpeacock8276]

The amount of people claiming 5e isn’t a good game is crazy to me. I’ve played plenty of systems, including quite a few mentioned in this video, and 5e holds up to any of them in the right kind of game. Is it the best system hands down? Not in my opinion. Is 5e a good system and ever great depending on the context and type of game? Yeah. It’s pretty dope. You can not like it or be tired of it, but the constant bashing from people is getting tired.

[@tetragono70]

Agree 100%. This video sounds like a clickbait for ranting. Most times, it’s how you dm or play a game that determines the experience.

[@Blizzic]

Well there are lots of people who disagree with you

[@davidpeacock8276]

@@Blizzic a lot of people seem to agree that the system is great too. That said, having people agree or disagree with me doesn’t make me right or wrong. Regardless, 5e is not my preferred system and I can understand why a lot of people, that still technically represent a minority of people who play ttrpgs, don’t like the system. That doesn’t make it a bad.

[@gobzdzilla]

I run 2nd edition Forgotten Realms and throw out DnD mechanics. Can't be go any better than that in fantasy.

[@mateusbiazotto]

no caveats, holding no punches, this video was fire

[@petsdinner]

It's time for our annual injection of Dave Against The Machine! One thing I don't think you mentioned is the Secret Answer C of our game system blues: we can write our own! This won't suit everyone and that's fine but game design is a fun hobby in and of itself if you have the creative urge. I wrote my first game (a one page rpg) this year, put it up on Itch, got some feedback and all in all had a great experience. NOTE: this is not a plug but Dave if I ever release a full version I'll send you a copy so you can tear it a new one 😆 Thanks for an awesome year of videos Dave, wishing you an amazing 2025!

[@JarethDuLac]

Come for a 30 minute discussion on why D&D is tired, stay for all the game suggestions.

[@simonyin9229]

after finally getting fed up with the issues of 5e i have been on a six month binge of reading and playing all kinds of different systems. It has been such a beautiful experience to see how many great games are out there. I always assumed that other systems just differ in their setting and that game feel would be more or less the same for every ttrpg. It has been a eye opening and humbling experience to see how wrong i was. It has helped me truly discover what i love about the hobby and what the elements are that always pushed me into burnout. I have gained the ability to verbalize my preferences in a way i never even considered when i all i knew was class based hero fantasy. I dont think 5e is a bad game, it does what it wants to do moderately well but it is horrible at what i enjoy in ttrpgs the most and i will likely never return to it or even something adjacent.

[@keithfta789]

🤘🏻 yep. I refuse to give WotC money. Well, minus whatever they get from Drivethrurpg. I did a few POD of 2e stuff. New spelljammer suuucked.

[@rainvedu]

You are just reinventing the wheel, this speech has been around since D&D existed. Already in the 70s new games and new systems appeared, with the same arguments as yours. And yet D&D is still there, because it offers a unique formula, easy to access, and easy to appropriate and modify. I am sure that it will continue to exist more or less in this form. There is a reason why people say "hey I would like to play a game of this good old D&D", no one ever says "hey, let's play this good old Traveller". I agree with your comments on WoTC, they should burn in hell.

[@misterbrady100]

D&D's only strength in the past few years is that there are a lot of people to play the game with. Everyone knows it, and so you can find people to play. That's important. Back in the 90's, it was hard for me to find anyone who was willing to try something other than D&D, World of Darkness, or Magic the Gathering. I still find that people are unwilling to try anything beyond their comfort zone that D&D is part of.

[@punishedwhispers1218]

3.5 was the last good DnD edition and Im tired of pretending otherwise

[@yagsipcc287]

There are countless options for people out there also if someone is intrested in actual D&D a KZbinr called Greyhawk Grognard has a game called Adventures, Dark and Deep. It is pretty much AD&D but cleaned up as well as having lots of extras added to it that Garry wanted to have in it but wasnt able to. There are two books one full of monsters and other stuff and then the core book with everything else PC creation, core rules, how to create places, towns dungeons and everything you want plus it can run the countless thousands of Mods out there. Other great games are of course Shadowdark, Mork Borg, 2D6, Tales of Argosa ( a low magic game its amazing also done by a small creator I backed it eariler this year PDFs is out now in the middle of shipping books) Across a Thousand Dead Worlds. For some more wargame RPG games, Forbidden Psalm series, Rangers of Shadow deep, Five Leagues from The Borderlands and Five Parsecs from Home (first one is more fantasy the other is sci fi)

[@griselame]

talk about a captive audience. Way WAYYYYY better games out there than D&D, but even after ALL they saw from WOTC the last few years, they still won't change.

[@matthewschwoebel8247]

Using milestone instead of XP advancement helps reward creative arrival at the destination rather than purely the dead monster journey. I would add Symbaroum (5E or its own system) to your list for a haunted ruins in a dark forest fantasy world (has excellent artwork too).

[@g0mikese]

I don't know if I agree with your vehement "The only people who should be playing DnD 5e are those who are fine with Hasbro's terrible nature and the game being worn out and tired, or want to be part of that tribe" sort of statements. Like it or not DnD 5e is the game my wife sees when we watch Dimension 20 and a bunch of other actual plays. Watching Fantasy High on Dimension 20 was what got her to say "I want to play this!" that was right about the time of the OGL scandal, so when we started up we used Pathfinder 2e instead (yes I know Paizo has their own issues) . It took a fair bit of explanation to her that Pathfinder is very much like the game she was seeing in the show to convince her to give it a shot, she wanted to play what she felt like she understood from watching it be played by others. To her and others new to the hobby the news about how terrible Hasbro is doesn't influence a decision because they haven't started reading that news yet and come to know even the basic fact that Hasbro owns WotC who in turn owns DnD. Yes there's tons of great games that have original and awesome settings. I own a ton of them on PDF including the majority of the ones you mention here. But a new player doesn't always want to sit down and read a book to understand the game at all, they want to get their characters and start playing as fast as possible. We know that this can be done faster in Knave and Shadow Dark than 5e, but to a new player that's a system they don't understand and that's a wall. DnD as you mentioned is tired and trope filled. There is an implication that any game you play of DnD should have all the classes available to the players, and that magic items and progression will work as expected. Not doing so makes running the game harder without outside help from a 3rd party rulebook like Level Up Advanced 5e. But bringing in another book doesn't lower that barrier to entry, it raises it. It can only lower the barrier if the person running the game knows enough about both DnD and that third party book to explain things to players. For the tropes and stories that DnD runs all the time that have become tired, a new player hasn't experienced those yet. A thing that's cliche to someone who's played for years is new to the first time player. The sad fact is that at the moment WotC's DnD 5e has the lowest barrier to entry when it comes to getting new player buy in. Other systems may be easier to run, easier to play, easier to get started, filled with new and better fictional worlds, and more imaginative mechanics; but I can't get a new player excited about Slugblaster until after they've started some sort of gaming experience. Yochai Gal or Cairn talks about taking copies of his game with a set of free dice and dropping them around his home in the "Free Library" boxes some people put up outside their houses because he's hoping to lower the barrier of entry for some people who want to play a game. Hell I've dropped copies of his game in two of these close to my home with dice. I think that's a great idea, but I also hope that Dimension 20 keeps trying other systems besides 5e and Kids on Bikes, and that Critical Roll and other Actual Play channels move more away from DnD to other more interesting games. The reason DnD is the market dominating force it is is because it has the easiest new player buy in. That's everything to do with recognition of the name and what it means. It holds players because they love the experience despite it's faults, and players resist having to learn something else. I think you know that, even if you find it annoying.

[@jimjim292]

Neat. So it is your job to make the buy in of other RPGs even easier than D&D.

[@g0mikese]

@@jimjim292 lol, well I'm trying where I can. I'm one of those poor souls who keeps buying games they have no hope of playing anytime soon if ever (like Mothership, my wife hates sci-fi almost as much as she despises horror... but I love it). I am hoping to get the group to try something else once the current game ends (but that will be a while).

[@tisselégendes]

Your answer is the most thought out I've seen. As a beginner, not being on social media for the most part, and not being from an english-speaking country, all the reasons you've listed make sense. I discovered D&D with the recent film, got into it with Baldur's Gate 3, then a homebrew setting as a PC, and am currently playing Avatar Legends. Tried Ironsworn and HATED it. There isn't (as far as I know) a lot of easily accessible games with the d&d vibes in my language. No one in my group of friends speak english to try other games that are similar. And I'm not about to translate entire ttrpg... Now, I'll go and search for what has happened. And I will continue to try other games because it's fun (there are a few indie ones from my country).

[@g0mikese]

@@tisselégendes that is annoyingly one of the things DnD has going for it, just that Wizards of the Coast has access to the resources to translate things. There's very few games with those resources sadly.

[@the_hellequin]

you just showed why i will die on the hill that is "Critical Roll did more damage than good." those shows don't portray ttrpgs, even D&D accurately. they give bad expectations. glad you and your wife got into PF2e though. i stopped running it years ago to go back to 5e.. and i wish i hadn't lost out on those years i coulda been running it. also.. i wish people would stop calling the OGL thing a "scandal" everyone acted shocked at WotC doing it... as if its the first time WotC as majorly tried to or actually fucked over their customers.

[@joshuaosiris]

The first three reasons aren’t well thought out.

[@allenmcnight8576]

Agreed. "Tired" isn't objective, and having tried other systems, rolling that "Nat 20!" is still exciting at the table. And then for points 2 and 3, he went directly from "too much tropes" to "too many options." Pick a lane.

[@manawacircus6720]

Dnd is like a beer... When you first start, it's the easiest option and everyone has it! When you get older, you realise that maybe whiskey is better, or you're more of a wine person...

[@dustymiller65]

★On behalf of those of us who are too loyal, stupid, and very blind: "What similar/ alternative rpgs can you suggest for us D&D players who seriously wish to branch out and explore other games?" *These FEW (2 or 3 at the most) will give us good for thought and help us take the first few baby steps away from the Hasbro/WotC teat which we have been so fond of suckling on for decades. Thanks so much.