The greatest songwriting theft of all time

[@RayHeffernan]

Hiya David! Thanks so much for taking the time to put this together. For the record, I've never once claimed that Robbie stole anything. I've only ever asked for my creative input to be properly recognised - as was agreed - and to find a mutually beneficial resolution to this dissonance. Anyway, thanks again for telling the tale, I hope this gets to the desk of Maestro Williams and that he - like me - is eager to iron out this kink in the tapestry. In Peace. Ray.

[@radidov5333]

what would you recommend to amateurs songwriters nowadays, how to proceed on songs?.. recording the full of them before showing to someone is kinda challenging, specially when you only got a really good bit ?

[@wowthisiscrazyshit]

He stole it, bro. Fuck him for hot making it right.

[@KathyD-24601]

Your ‘creative input’ was recognised with an acknowledgement and a payment of £7500. As you well know, given that it was agreed in writing by your lawyer.

[@thesunreport]

His crew did the same to me. EDIT BY REQUEST - So I used to make music for fun, but I knew a couple of people who had some low-level music managment experience (including 'boy bands') and I went and played them a couple of tunes. One of the tunes was 'Psycho Circus', which I wrote around 1992 I think. I didn't sign with them but continued to write as a hobby, late going to college for music, and then broadcasting. I think it was around 1999 that I saw that the rock band KISS had reformed with full-makeup with a new album called 'Psycho Circus'. Later I would find out that a guy from Robbie's band was a member of the only officially sanctioned KISS tribute band, so there was a direct connection there. Robbie then went on of course to do his 'Let me entertain you' video in similar make-up to KISS with his tiger pants on. I felt this referenced another of my songs 'Ride that Tiger', which was a stand-in lyric for the actual song 'Get You Higher', a demo of which is on my channel. It might not seem like a big deal to some people, but it felt pretty obviously to be a 'power-play/p**s-take' type of situation. Fopr example if I released my Psycho Circus song now, then I would be accused of copying KISS, when it was actually the other way around. This is part of the problem with the music industry I think. Once a record company invests a lot of money, then they need a return, and it doesn't really matter if they lift someone else's creativity to make themselves look better or more creative because all they are interested in is money. So yeah while I'm guesing Robbie was 'just following orders', his crew were nicking other people's work and passing it off as their own, or passing it to their mates, as they did with Ray.

[@EmyrDerfel]

@@KathyD-24601 that was on the understanding that there had been radical changes. Without such changes, Ray's version is a much larger contribution to the final released version. The contract signed paid Ray for a small contribution, not a large one.

[@seerpou]

robbie's story of coming up with that line randomly in his sister's garden is something david brent would say

[@Etcher]

haha 100%

[@Jamesaw85]

Well what do you expect from someone who's "basically a chilled out entertainer".

[@missknowsitall8705]

Robbie was a bore to watch

[@scottsound4711]

Classic..

[@animelytical8354]

I thought that and I hardly saw the show

[@spookym123]

Hearing directly from Robbie the way he treated Ray when he showed up at his door said a lot about Robbie. What a crushing experience for Raymond.

[@NikkiNastee]

I love Robbie as an artist but he's a sh!tty human. Even though he sobered up he could still compensate Ray for the song a more appropriate sum but he chooses not to which means he's STILL sh!te.

[@Alex-kh8np]

If you have to to go look for someone and knock on their door, you probably are not invited though... Sounds like a guy who was clearly down and out, who had a chance meeting that he wanted to turn into success and Robbie was not on the same page. He could have called the police, but he effectively refunded him and told him firmly, you cant do this mate...

[@JosephNewton-ne1iy]

@@Alex-kh8np No i agree with other Guy, even though you are technically right he didn't come off as a very compassionate person more like selfish big shot who was scared this peasant showed up at his manner and didn't have any time for him. Bear in mind when the shoe was on the other foot and it was him in Ireland down an out this fella took him into his home and i am sure boosted his ego back up again. All that comes across is Robbie did some soul searching and found a man with the makings of a song which he desperately needed and he takes that and runs back home and fucks the other bloke out of the equation. You can say all's fair in love and war but bulk of Robbie's career has been based off of people feeling sorry for him

[@sharpvidtube]

@@JosephNewton-ne1iy Or Robbie went from being an alcoholic, to sober? That changes things. I don't think he treated Ray badly when he turned up at his door, but if he took his piece of a song, he should let him have his full share of the royalties.

[@afrosymphony8207]

@@JosephNewton-ne1iy dude there's nothing like technically right here, dont fuckn show up and peoples home unannounced its as simple as that. Anyone can find some bullshit excuse to denegrate the character of some they dont like, even if rovvie was a nazi and this was his old town caholic priest childhood buddy who saved him from drowning, you can highlight why nazis are evil all you want the fact still remains the same, if you show up unannounced be ready you're not entitled to be treated like a king.

[@jamesandrew1750]

'you'll love an Angel instead' is exactly what I'd expect an Irish Catholic Mother to say to her son and the lyrics fit with a heartbroken songwriters work

[@franzherflek4116]

So true

[@KeironP1]

Love that.

[@Benzos6149]

Makes more sense than Williams literally throwing it together in a back garden in 60 minutes - yet never able to write anything else in the same vein or anywhere near it either before, nor since. In fact, he’s a walking testament to his own inability regards songwriting, he’s never hidden the fact he can’t write a song to save breath let alone an epic ballad such as that. It’s embarrassing hearing him claim otherwise. Actually it’s shameful.

[@antiv]

Who tf gives a f? Ffs

[@MrSmith_]

​@@antivPeople with a moral backbone.

[@matiia]

I’m not a songwriter, but when my wife died, I picked up her guitar, taught myself to play, and lyrics of love and grief poured out of me. There’s no way Robbie writes these lines with the only motivation being ‘waiting for my sister in the house’. A song written about a miscarriage and heartache is so much more likely.

[@hghyfyfiugou4448]

100%. I know a woman who had 2 miscarriages and has two baby angels as a tattoo. It makes absolute perfect sense.

[@warrenbarry9280]

Nah, it's clearly a song about some bloke waiting for his sister to get back from the shops! The line about being 'being grey and old' refers to his sister taking a bit longer than usual. '...She offers me protection'...that's just about his sister buying him some rubber jonnies because he was too embarrassed to get them himself. Case closed.

[@ombrenightcores]

Some people have Gaydar, I have “this song was absolutely written about having a miscarriage”-dar. And there are some songs that are just way too specific to believe that they never experienced it either firsthand or through a friend. This is one.

[@jonathanjones2270]

Stole a song by a father mourning his dead child. Classy.

[@ayo0o0o0o0]

He'll pay for that after this short life ends

[@jordanbrook9368]

its bull

[@rael1999]

@@jordanbrook9368 ....It's a hell of a lot more convincing than Robbie's embarrassing explanation of how he wrote the song.

[@jordanbrook9368]

@rael1999 its literally in a documentary of tbem coming up with the sony and lyrics

[@rael1999]

Lol...I saw what he said when he was asked on the spot. I literally laughed out loud it was that embarrassing.

[@andreidinu7316]

Let me get this straight: Robbie, who hasn't written a thing in his life, gets "inspired" sitting in the garden, to write just one verse, then for months can't write a second verse, or any other song until he meets the second song writer who finishes the song, and we're supposed to believe that?

[@NmpK24]

His story might be questionable but just because someone 'never wrote anything in their life' doesn't mean they cannot contribute to a songwriting partnership. Lyrics can be written by anyone.

[@maxmeier532]

You forgot that Williams was doing blow and had a fart caught that really made his belly hurt- so he wished for an angel to complate saving him.

[@andreidinu7316]

@@NmpK24 you're proving my point. If it's a partnership, then put it on the record, no one says you didn't contribute, but why say you did it by yourself?

[@imonlydancingsal1509]

Robbie had good lyrics, melody ideas and concepts for songs. He is a writer, and evidently an inspired magpie also.

[@Kussinz-b6r]

That’s how I write sometimes. It’s plausible but I can’t really tell if he’s stolen it or not

[@auto-systematic]

Sounds like he heard the song and said "I think I'll take that".

[@frogscotch19]

lol good pun

[@DodaGarcia]

😂

[@laura0104]

🤭😂😂😂😂

[@Jukau]

Kadush

[@sankumsachs4289]

Lmaooooooooo

[@music.sphere]

I'm glad that you made a video about this! It has hit 1M views now and I really hope Ray gets total justice.

[@gurpaful]

Robbie's story of the song randomly coming to him while sitting in his sister's garden is such an obvious phoned in lie when you compare it to the genuine backstory. It's like he didn't even bother to try to convince anyone

[@KathyD-24601]

Not at all. Most songs happen like that - most songwriters will tell you that. In fact Ray’s story is far more unusual.

[@gurpaful]

@@KathyD-24601 Guy never wrote a song in his life, then suddenly writes a hit song as his first effort, after a drunken encounter with an actual songwriter? Sounds legit

[@barryledgister4496]

The start is great, and I think it`s Ray`s...`I sit and wait/ does an angel contemplate my fate?`...the rest of the song is pretty cliched...Robbie and Guy Chambers. Robbie should`ve asked Ray to write more songs with him...doh...Robbie`s career soon tanked once Chambers was gone anyway...draw your own conclusion.

[@777jimothy]

I've heard him tell a different story how it came about, so he's definitely lying

[@pitchforkcustom]

yep

[@martynfreeman9638]

Funny how Robbie gets the opening verse popping into his head (the bit he recorded with Ray) and then is unable to take the song any further until Guy Chambers does the job for him. Also, Ray is actually a musician and songwriter, unlike Robbie.

[@psychonaut689]

Yes especially as he said he wrote two verses in the back garden.

[@Kussinz-b6r]

Well that is how songwriting can work sometimes. You start writing something and then are unsure of where to take it. That’s how I write sometimes and plenty of other musicians and songwriters do. That’s not uncommon

[@SlickArmor]

​@@Kussinz-b6r yes it can and does but not this time. Pay Ray.

[@yota8325]

​@SlickArmor ray signed a contract he isn't getting any money. Best thing he could dream of is being credited as a contributer of writing the song. But that's up to Rob and his lawyers. I would assume robs lawyers would advise against putting rays name on there tho

[@citizen1163]

@@yota8325 As Ray was only 23yo at the time he accepted the pittance, I’d hope there might be a case that he didn’t know what he was signing, but good lawyers cost.

[@markwale4087]

Thanks for amplifying this story. I just want to say Ray is not an amateur Irish musician - he is a professional musician and a very good singer-songwriter who happens not to be a celebrity. There are many more real musicians who never aspire to, let alone achieve, celebrity. Celebrity brings power, power facilitates abuse, and this story is an egregious example of it. And as you can tell from his contribution here, he Ray is a level-headed, deeply sound and hugely talented man. Robbie Williams I do not know at all.

[@steveakka]

Come on Mr.Williams pay the man what he deserves and also give him the credit and respect he deserves...

[@Chaapaw]

He was paid

[@erinkinsella91]

​@@Chaapawa pathetic £7,500

[@musicbro8225]

@@Chaapaw What he deserves?

[@SagalDuran]

Ray should get royalties for life

[@CraftEccentricity]

Junkies are thieves and liars. They never pay.

[@mrsyorkshire3216]

This explains a lot. I've always found it astonishing that Robbie Williams wrote a song like this. Now, it appears, he didn't after all. Poor Ray. He was taken advantage of at a low point in his life having lost his baby.

[@darrenporter1850]

Robbie was basically a face for a band, there's no way he can suddenly write this one song. It's like taking a random person and asking them to paint a classic

[@tru2harris998]

RAY PLEASE SUE ROBBIE...HE EXTORTED YOU.

[@leenewman1980]

@@tru2harris998 I believe once you accept a settlement, case is closed unless new evidence comes. You can not take someone to court again once it has been dealt with. However, as with all out of court settlements, that one way or another implies guilt.

[@MrSmiggy53]

Robbie Williams is the biggest fraud in music. He can't play an instrument, his songs are written by other people ( Guy Chambers) and his singing is so bad that he turns his concerts into singalongs to hide his voice. Gullible fans buy tickets to hear THEMSELVES sing!

[@Phill_Ashley]

This point isn’t proven. That’s literally what this video is about.

[@_creighton]

My experience of the music industry constantly reminds me of Hunter S Thompson's summation of it in this quote... “The music business is a cruel and shallow money trench, a long plastic hallway where thieves and pimps run free, and good men die like dogs. There's also a negative side.” ― Hunter S. Thompson

[@paulinenicoll6917]

and the rest, like the diddy abuse, it attracts the lowest of low who mingle with those who have pure souls.

[@samuelodell1791]

After the verse, I suggested going to the chorus. Genius. Just. Just brilliant

[@MsDormy]

😂

[@wolfsisterhowls]

I think the unspoken bit here is that Robbie didn't think to go to the chorus himself. A frequent theme in Chambers interviews is how little Robbie knew about songwriting for the first few years of their collaborations and how once he had some knowledge later they had a power struggle for creative control. This snippet seems to suggest Robbie was so green and incompetent that he couldn't even come to the obvious next step, not that Guy was such a genius in suggesting the obvious next step.

[@DOGOID]

The point is that there was no chorus at all, just the first verse, the chorus of Angels was entirely created by Chambers.

[@Sthuont]

Honestly though... verse to chorus songs are meh. Verse to bridge/prechorus, now that is something. The more complexity and components within a song, the better it usually is. Mies van der Rohe was wrong; more is more!

[@colerintoul4110]

hahaha- how did he know to do this??????? insane talent!

[@cbonk2]

“I’m loving angels instead” tells me that Ray 100% wrote the song given his story.

[@BeeSugar1]

My sentiments exactly!

[@patrickambrose5372]

The fact that Robbie hunted him away from his door was what got me! Very hurtful thing to do to anyone.

[@branbroken]

You have someone you met in a pub a while ago suddenly turn up at your front door unannounced, what did you expect to happen for robbie to say come on in have the guest room. Ateast he was given some money to go stay in a b&b, ive known people that would turn away family that arrived unannounced and leave them on the doorstep with nothing but the door slamming in their face.

[@jeniestra.]

​@@branbrokenIf you pay attention to the story, they created a bond and you can see a picture of Robbie in Ray's house. It wasn't only a meeting at a pub.

[@Vespa123]

@@branbroken you know some scummy people

[@SplashTasty]

Created a bond in a single drunken evening? ​@@jeniestra.

[@bletheringfool]

An example of why verbal agreements aren't worth the paper they're not written on

[@fastbowler]

It's literally a legal, non-verbal agreement to settle for £7500. Ray is appealing on Robbie's good will (a verbal request!) to reconsider the previous settlement.

[@bletheringfool]

@@fastbowler I meant when they were in the pub

[@fastbowler]

@@bletheringfool It's a cautionary tale: Robbie was eager to move on and buy Ray out. Maybe Ray should've waived the £7500 for a songwriting credit. It's not like Robbie hasn't had co-songwriters for his other songs.

[@bletheringfool]

@@fastbowler yes indeed.

[@mipmipmipmipmip-v5x]

Maybe the road towards acts of good will does not involve having videos appear where the other is accused of theft. I can imagine the personal story behind it, but maybe Ray should have gotten this off of his chest by putting emphasis on the cautionary tale to others.

[@DNSL_]

let's see, who am I going to trust, someone who had a miscarriage and basically writes a song about that, or robbie williams who "sat somewhere in a garden and just got the idea" man this is a hard choice.

[@Dave1507]

how do you put a miscarriage and a creative inspiration together? one of those two is not required to write a song...

[@MegaCityPatrol]

@@Dave1507A gut wrenching emotional occurrence that a creative person needs to express through their art … or a drunk sitting in his sisters garden suddenly having melody and lyrics pop into head that even a pro songwriter like guy Gardner recognises as having hit potential 🤔 I know which one my moneys on

[@Dave1507]

@@MegaCityPatrol Stranger things have happened. Btw most of the artists that we consider great these days were at one or more stages in their lives drunks or addicted to other drugs. I'm not saying Williams is one of those great artists, not by a long shot, but artistic expression and drugs have a well documented history. Also you make it sound like it's either or. That no pop singer can have great ideas just because he's also an alcoholic. And that's, to put it in simple terms, utter bullshit.

[@opinion3742]

I hope you don't have to do jury service.

[@MegaCityPatrol]

@@Dave1507 TLDR; whatever you win this internet argument, well done.👍

[@SonicWizards]

2:55 Ray’s version is MUCH more plausible/credible

[@Texturas75]

Oh yes! Robbie's version just sounds like bragging.

[@yazmin9483]

@@Texturas75robbies entire personality

[@aartjetwinkel]

Even if Ray only wrote one chord or one word he should be credited. There are people getting songwriting credits for far less input.

[@mitchellandrews1015]

@aartfaarrtjetwinkel. Are there? Who? Do you work in the business ?

[@chateautemp]

@@mitchellandrews1015 yes, in corporate songwriting circles even being in the same room and not writing a single lyric or melody line gives that person a songwriter credit.

[@twkotb]

“Write a word, get a third” is a saying in Nashville. It’s a matter of convention though. If you’re a nobody, you can get shafted.

[@stephenbrown5045]

​@@mitchellandrews1015Simon Cowell is well known for it, you don't need to work in the industry to know that

[@joeshmoe7967]

@@chateautemp I was just about to write that. I was going to say Nashville, but corporate absolutely works. The joke is, the janitor opens the door to grab the trash....damn, our cut just got smaller....

[@madMARTYNmarsh1981]

I don't know who's telling the truth here, but Ray's story makes a lot more sense given the context of the words of the song. Robbies make no sense; he wrote a song about angels, and the start of it is him sitting in his sisters garden? I always thought the song words sound like someone who is mourning a loss, not someone sitting in their sisters' garden.

[@Gogs126]

I am Irish and can tell you that the story was going around musical circles in Dublin since the late 90s that Robbie Williams had been partying in Dublin and an Irish guy had played him this song of his at a session and that he had stolen it. That's years before the internet was commonly used, a decade before social media even started and there was no reason whatsoever to say it if it wasn't true

[@TwoLeftSh0es]

When he didn't know what to do at the end of the verse he should have gone back to sit in his sister's garden again.

[@ShreddinThrash]

This is proof that he stole it.

[@mattiemclean9882]

@@ShreddinThrash no it isn't. The only people who know the truth is Robbie and the other fella. Stop speculating about things you don't know

[@jerryrikki9466]

So you do know, you just dont trust yourself to know

[@snoookie456]

This finally makes sense because I never ever ever liked Robbie Williams, but I've learned Angels when I studied piano and guitar on both instruments. And I always thought this song is just too beautiful to be written by this boy band drop-out.

[@Ligerpride]

Yes, same, especially considering he was in the music industry for quite a long time before this. Where was the evidence of writing songs in this style? There wasn't much. Granted Williams did have some reasonable efforts, such as No Regrets and Feel but Angels was in a different level.

[@BuckRolly1]

I remember reading Gary Barlow saying he never knew Robbie Williams to have written anything ever which is why he was so shocked by Robbie's subsequent 'songwriting' success

[@I_Don_t_want_a_handle]

Barlow actually has some talent. Not my cup of tea but he was obviously the best of a sad set.

[@fastbowler]

Working on the Take That comeback album, Gary had fully acknowledged what a fantastic songwriter Robbie has become, and regretted having repressed Robbie's development because Gary thought he (Gary) was on his way to a mega solo career, which did not happen. He had to regroup Take That to get his music career going again.

[@slartibartfast7921]

@@I_Don_t_want_a_handle agreed.

[@slartibartfast7921]

@@fastbowler This is the second stan comment from you. Robbie? Is that you? Talentless hack much?

[@NmpK24]

RW co wrote his songs with other people like Chambers. And lyrics and melody are a big percentage of song's publishing. You don't have to be an experienced musician to do this either.

[@Katiekin2333]

I believe him. Robbie didn’t want to share a songwriting credit because he knew he would have to pay him a fortune.

[@AmranSidek]

well if can write angel..why dont he work with him for future project? its more an ego thing after having declared the writer for the song..and dont want anyone else to get the credit for it...shitty

[@backacheache]

That would be ironic as I believe that what Barlow did to him

[@lefreakful]

This makes so much sense now... My heart is broken for Ray ❤

[@angkeats7111]

Ray is clearly telling the truth. The song had a meaning to him.

[@BuDDa100]

Whatever happened here, Robby could have easily help out the guy after he got millions, instead he chose to be a dick.

[@colinlatham7905]

No choice, was just being himself

[@paulgreen758]

its what he is like, its all about Robbie

[@ohdearism]

Robbie always was and possibly still is, a dick.

[@yota8325]

Not really if he already paid ray £7500. In the 90s that was a good chunk of change for helping right a verse for a song that might not even be a hit. Ray could have asked for a percentage instead of the upfront payment. But he would have known that was a risk he wasn't willing to take

[@opinion3742]

@@yota8325 It was a sum of money settled out of court. Is that how the songwriting business works?

[@bustamoveorelse]

Great commentary "He stole his song but on the bright side. The guy who stole his song and left him with nothing while making millions, gave him a compliment". Feels good

[@SoSo-li6dn]

What a beautiful note from his mother. You wont have a baby to love, - but "You have an angel instead".

[@jovanreid6782]

I beg to differ. It's no different from when people say things like "they're in a better place now" or "they're with God now". Like, I've never understood why this is supposed to be some form of consolation, when most people would rather have their loved ones still here.

[@revelation3679]

@@jovanreid6782 perhaps you need to dig in a bit to learn what consolation means and, thereafter, why your response is retarded

[@Unpopularity]

@@jovanreid6782 the poetry has its value, as you can see with the turnout of the song. Sometimes poetic lines are offered for what little consolation they can provide, along with an artistic release esp. if her song is a songwriter.

[@opinion3742]

@@jovanreid6782 I hope you never get to be a Bereavement Councilor.

[@ruzziasht349]

@@jovanreid6782 depends how dead and black your heart is I guess. Not unusual for various people with disorders to have no empathy.

[@fozzledoff1]

Professional song writer: "He finished the verse and didnt know where to go from there, so I said 'what about going to the chorus'" WOW! what a bloody genius!!!

[@nectarinedreams7208]

That speaks more to Robbie's talent or lack thereof than it does Chambers'. I don't know why everyone is saying this. Are you all idiots?

[@jas_bataille]

Imagine having to TELL someone that. Hello????!

[@alistairdimmick2886]

No its prechorus, cut to a guitar solo break, verse 2, prechorus, THEN chorus. Then guitar solo.

[@owencampbell8799]

That’s a good line so I’ll take it to the bridge

[@davecollins1403]

Thanks for putting this vid together , hope it goes viral . It’s well known in Ireland the concept for the song was Rays . Robbie then shafted him . The problem is Robbie has being telling porkies for so long , he can’t bring himself to admit that the song came from Ray . Hope Ray gets his just reward

[@douglassmithe9799]

I like Robbie's music, but he's always struck me as slimy guy you wouldn't wanna be associated with. I believe Ray's version of events.

[@a.c.4732]

"used car dealer" made good - he still wears the sheepskin coat ffs

[@undercoveragent9889]

Ironical, the music you like is not Robbie's.

[@fritzblob]

I agree with everything you said apart from liking Robbie’s music 😂

[@baghiballsakh82]

You're associated with him if you like his music. You're connected. Fundamentals. I couldn't listen to any artist I feel so strongly against.

[@Rainyday23-l7p]

He’s an Israel loving Zionist, what do you expect. Slimy is his middle name

[@lennertcoorevits958]

So sad. Williams has a hard time acknowledging that he just can’t write songs. In his documentary on Netflix, the way he ends up treating Guy Chambers, just because he wants the public to believe “hey i can do this shit too!” , was pretty heartwrenching.

[@SpringNotes]

Robbie sounds very insecure, even tho he shouldn't be. It also takes talent to be a good singer and a performer. That was good enough for Elvis.

[@MINOUTFTABOU]

@@SpringNotes This guy couldn't write songs either and even tried to rip off Dolly Parton. Dolly Parton was tough as nails and said ‘NO’ ‘This little song is not just a little song, it's special and I wrote it for my beloved husband!’

[@captainhurricane5705]

He can't sing either.

[@jeniestra.]

​@@MINOUTFTABOUto be fair Elvis Presley's manager was the one who wanted to scam Dolly Parton.

[@GosiaP2019]

He is the author of the lyrics of almost all of his songs and also creates the melodic lines.I don't know of any hits by Chambers that weren't co-written with Robbie.

[@chrisliddiard725]

@4:28 You missed one other possibility. 'Angel' is a common enough theme for both to have had that idea before meeting and bringing their ideas on that theme together. Each might have left thinking the other had appropriated their idea. With each saying they already had the idea maybe the truth lies somewhere in between.

[@JoeyXSmith]

I believe Ray.

[@KINGMONKEY1989]

That's how the industry works mate. The little guy always gets shat on and scammed out of there own music.

[@MegaVypyr]

💯

[@supertouring22]

I bet ray feels a lot happier that you do 😂

[@alanlouth8501]

Me too

[@nickandrews2255]

Absolutely . If he made it up why did he pay him to settle it?

[@davidloveday8473]

Which is more likely on the face of it: (a) extremely famous and apparently fame-hungry celebrity who has left/been thrown out of an extremely famous boyband, who has apparently never previously written a song, and who is desperately looking for a first song as a solo artist in order to remain relevant and earn money again, just happens to write one of the greatest pop classics of all time... and then instead of going straight to a major record company with it, decides instead to share his ticket to success as a solo artist with some unknown singer songwriter after randomly meeting him in a Dublin pub one night (b) unknown singer songwriter, inspired by a devastating personal loss, writes one of the greatest pop classics of all time, but being completely unknown has no way of doing anything with it... until he randomly meets extremely famous ex boy band member in a Dublin pub, boyband member explains after a few pints that he's desperate for success as a solo artist but that he can't write songs, and unknown singer songwriter suggests he might just already have written something the ex boyband member could record, solving both of their dilemmas...

[@biancabeavis7198]

This should be pinned as the top comment.

[@illy1581]

exactly

[@Jennifer-77]

B, the answer is definitely b!!!

[@toadds]

Brilliantly summed up. I'll go with Option B.

[@45anon45]

Tldr

[@BabyIveBeenWaiting]

Robbie couldn’t write a Christmas card without a team of writers to help him.

[@jelkel25]

This is a good lesson for any creatives out there, more established artists may steal your ideas even if you just do whatever for yourself with no thought of a payday. It feels good and validating to get a bit of attention from a more established artist but just beware. Watch what you share online and especially in person. I was lucky and only had a few paragraphs stolen from a topic I don't actually write about which was enough for me to learn the lesson. Play your cards close to your chest until you have done what you are going to do with the idea. It's not your job to get others through dry patches unless they are paying and acknowledging.

[@UkuleleBobbyKemp]

Really well put - thanks! 🙏

[@DeltaJazzUK]

Good advice.

[@DewtbArenatsiz]

Bob Dylan entered the chat

[@thecookreporting]

So Robbie stole a song meant for a dead child

[@nickandrews2255]

It pisses me off. The way Robbie describes creating the song compared to how ray does it’s completely different. Of course it was rays song. Look at the story so much more detail plus meaning

[@manulito2]

@@nickandrews2255 Very much agreed. As soon as Robbie said that the verses came together in "a couple of hours", I started being suspicious. That's not the way creativity and writing music works. You just don't slap something together in a few hours, if you want something of quality, which "Angels" actually is

[@Baron_Greenback]

@@manulito2I wrote ‘There Should Be More Bananas For Sale On EBay’ in around fifteen minutes so to be fair - it can be done!

[@Baron_Greenback]

I don’t know how Or why It makes me sad, when I think about it It may seem inconsequential To you But to me It makes me feel like God doesn’t exist Only Morph And his odd friend Chas Why aren’t there more bananas for sale on EBay Why don’t more people have them for sale It makes me wonder And the thought Makes me sad I thought there would be more bananas Than they had Morph lives in a wooden box Chas got paid more royalties For his work Now Morph is depressed And Chas is out driving a Porsche It’s so sad I know But it’s true Plus there’s not enough bananas on eBay for sale Poor Morph And his wooden box The hinges are rusty and now it won’t properly shut Chas knows The way it goes Even with his Porsche depreciation He’s in a much better situation In the rain I ask again Why aren’t there more bananas for sale on eBay Why oh why I mean For crying out loud Poor Morph and his rusty hinges Chas being flash Cos he got all of the cash We need more bananas for sale On eBay [see it can be done!]

[@daviebananas1735]

@@manulito2 I’m not in any way on Robbie’s side, but it’s absurd to say that the verse of a song can’t be written in a few hours. It can be written in 15 minutes, if not less. Not always, but it’s been done many times.

[@kurtsmith2547]

Great video, short and to the point with no annoying intros! Also no adverts for once. Subscribed

[@KevMcKean]

This is 100% true. I'm from Dublin, and even though I was only 10 at the time, I always remember hearing that Robbie had taken Rays song. I always say an Irishman wrote Angels whenever it plays.

[@garyduddell3224]

"It's 100% true because I heard rumours". Sound reliable. I heard this week you owe me £10k so please pay up......

[@Jos-z5v]

Why are Irish people so obsessed with needing to remind people they are responsible for something? Is it because you’re not known for much? So the country needs to take credit for something as little as a song.

[@a03bf1e0]

I remember a girl when I was in 1st year saying she was Ray's niece when this song came out.

[@brucejr.5833]

Robbie knows he owns a piece of that song and deserves more than seven Grand. What a snake.

[@fastbowler]

It was a gamble. Robbie's solo career wasn't flying high back then, and prior to release, that debut album could've gone nowhere. At least Robbie's legal team covered the bases before the album was pressed/CD was manufactured, and settled with Ray. Should Ray have asked for more? Should Ray have refused the £7500 for a songwriting credit? Robbie shares songwriting credits all the time. On this specific matter, the snake level is not very apparent

[@Elfrida-ls2mo]

Can't Stand RW and don't like his Music or the song Angeles However if RW nicked someone's Song why did the Man not sue Years ago

[@fastbowler]

@@Elfrida-ls2mo yep, he should’ve sued years ago, but an agreement is an agreement, in this case. (Also, “Angels” os the least of Robbie’s [co-written] songs, though I do enjoy his other work)

[@slartibartfast7921]

@@fastbowler Tbh, any form of defense of Williams is a self own. It’s not apparent to you… guess why.

[@slartibartfast7921]

@Charles-Grady exactly, dude is acting like he has an argument

[@professorbernardkemp7448]

“I was sat in my sister’s garden and it started going dark and I started humming to myself and wrote Nocturne in E-flat major, well before Chopin did. It took me about an hour”.

[@MrJayehawk]

So, Robbie's claim is that he's not much of a songwriter...but also managed to write the song voted the best British single of the past 25 years. That checks out.

[@Alex-ey9jl]

I wouldnt say this is fair because you can be a non-songwriter and still produce hits... And as stated alot of it was down to guy chambers arrangement and the instrumentation who is a professional songwriter anyway.... All robbie did is write some of the words

[@Blinki18284]

@@Alex-ey9jl Robbie Williams and Guy Chambers had a great chemistry and came up with some great songs themselves. I wouldn't say, Robbie is a songwriter himself but with the right partner, he is/was very creative.

[@infinite8382]

@@Alex-ey9jl "you can be a non-songwriter and still produce hits" the same way you can fly a plane and not be a pilot. LMAO :P

[@KingBuster90]

@@infinite8382 actually most of the time the plane flies its self & there has been times non pilots have flown a plane successfully & by that I mean with no training & you need a pilot's licence to be considered a pilot I think & you need to be able to fly a plane to get one

[@tillitsdone]

@@KingBuster90 No that's not true, no non-pilot has ever landed a plane successfully, except in dumb movies

[@Optics2024]

Yeah I believe Ray over Robbie, who has always struck me as a bit of a snake

[@devidwobinson8747]

Apparently he has a big snake

[@timcoakley5498]

Robbie Williams once said that he has the biggest cock in the music industry, what I think he meant to say was that he is the biggest cock in the music industry/

[@TheTruthisLord]

😂😂😂😂😂😂​@@devidwobinson8747

[@jshaw4757]

​@@Insearchofpeace-iv2lmApparently he's sad lonely n empty

[@jshaw4757]

​@@Insearchofpeace-iv2lmGood luck too him still part my childhood n such good tunes just industry is dog shite n that's the tip tip tip tip tip tip tip tip...tip..tip..tip...off the tip..tip off the iceberg...cheers

[@angelbabe8814]

No wonder Robbie’s mental and physical health has been plagued all of these years. He knows what he’s done. That sort of ill intent doesn’t leave you until you do the right thing and restore balance.

[@keyboarddeserter]

Lesson learned, dont share your best non copyrighted material with a signed professional.

[@jacksonwinter5110]

That's not how copyright works. There's not some registry where you submit your work to have it certified as copyrighted. You just need to be able to prove in court that you had the earlier work, and that any derivative work is sufficiently inherited from your original.

[@coldacre]

@@jacksonwinter5110well technically that IS how it works: you have to own a physical copy of something that can be dated to prove in a court of law, ownership. back in the 90’s artists would make a copy of a demo; mail it to themselves and store…. with the envelope having a postal stamp & date on it. boom: the song is copyrighted

[@Monkycrasure-gk4fz]

@@coldacre that is literally what @jacksonwinter5110 just said. He said, you have to prove you had it first. Then you come in here, well akshully you have to prove you had it first. The date on the envelope would be used for what? Proof maybe? There still isn't a copyright registry though is there?

[@cathalfaughnanmusic]

False. The mail thing has never stood up in court. Robbie stole the song. Plain and simple

[@joy1ess]

as long as you have a tangible product of your work, that work is automatically copyrighted. just make sure it’s dated

[@bunkerinfluence]

A travesty, listen to any of rays songs and you will have your answer of who wrote it. Fantastic songwriter

[@yazmin9483]

Ray sounds like a lovely heartfelt guy,the best people always seem to get treated like dirt in this cruel money grabbing world.

[@MrMisanthrope84]

The original of this song is heartbreaking. That poor guy writes a song about a harrowing chapter in his life then has it stolen. What the hell.

[@paulaitix77]

Guy Chambers stated Williams would always try to change his lyrics solely to receive writing credits

[@myBquest]

So, like Beyoncé? 😂

[@opinion3742]

Where did you hear this?

[@HarryWolf]

Change a word, earn a third.

[@GaryCareyMusic]

Guy Chambers is primarily the music person. This is how he described working with Robbie Williams in a GQ interview: "I would just sit with him, with a guitar or piano, and he would sing melodies at me. He would come up with lyrics almost instantaneously. When I met him he had a lot of ideas floating around, a lot of poems and lyrics. He’s a very natural songwriter - I would just try to keep up". There was a three part BBC series 'Secrets of the pop song' showing Chambers writing with Rufus Wainwright and other artists. He re-iterated there that he came up with musical ideas and not lyrics.

[@TheDefJamm]

But that's not song writing. The lyrics are just part of it. It's also the story in the song, the melody, and the chord sequence.

[@JamesBrewerDJ]

No offense to Robbie....but who is more likely to have written this? A coked up, pissed up, ex-boy band member who was known for not playing an instrument or providing any creative input, or someone who "IS" a song writer, had been through hell and was in the exact head space to write this....I wouldn't put my money on Nobbie!

[@hughtube5154]

Omfg. "Once he (Robbie Williams) got to the end of the verse he didn't really know whee to go from there. I suggested going to the chorus." Y'know. Like in 99.9% of all pop music. You'd think songwriter extraordinaire RW would know the structure of an effing pop single.

[@msbecks7004]

That’s exactly what I thought 😂

[@undercoveragent9889]

Yes, it appears as if they got their story straight, doesn't it? Famous dude mugs troubled Irishman. Chambers gives a fake alibi for the night of the mugging. Horrible people. I am so glad I never bought into the 'pop thing' at all. A next of vipers preying on the vulnerable.

[@will-sully]

I took that to mean they didn't have a chorus at this point and that Guy subsequently wrote it

[@redwoodtrees7068]

@@msbecks7004 he looks nice, that's why he's there.

[@DutchJoan]

It's lovely to hear the true meaning behind the song, even though it is such a sad one. It is also sad that some artists feel the need or the liberty to steal other people's work.

[@gavinbrando8255]

He’s absolutely telling the truth and there’s no disputing that since Williams admitted it but the fact it was voted a good song is what really shocked me. That was easily the biggest mistake in this whole thing…. The biggest theft. Biggest disaster for culture and the world. But that Ray guy is telling the truth and he made a bad deal so it’s his own fault tbh.

[@Iron-Bridge]

It's simple. Ray's the actual songwriting talent. Robbie is a performer not a musician.

[@monkeybutt713]

and Robbie's a dick you forgot that part.

[@beimircc6434]

Is it really that simple..?

[@do_happywork]

@@beimircc6434 What if it was?

[@snaphaan5049]

@@beimircc6434 Yup. 90% of the industry works like that

[@JuvPrimervago]

As a singer songwriter myself, who loves that song and am a huge fan of Robbie actually, I believe the other guy more since that is usually how songs are actually written.

[@Ligerpride]

One thing that's suspicious about Williams version of events is that it's the only song that I've heard him describe the inspiration behind it. I mean he did a lot of writing with Guy Chambers (who basically was the writer for Williams songs). So Williams did very little before and after Chambers yet we're led to believe that Williams came up with his biggest hit and song of this nature at a time when he was a complete mess and drunkard while he was in his sister's back garden.

[@sirlordcomic]

Karl Wallinger wrote She's the One. Nothing to do with Williams. When introducing the song in live performances, Williams often claims that it is one of the best songs he's ever written, despite not actually having written the song.

[@matthewcoombs3282]

When clicking on the video, I thought it was about that song. Didn't realise he did it about "Angels" as well. Karl was pissed off about it then became OK after a few years when he realised the royalties paid his kid's school fees😂

[@jackjude]

RIP Karl. Loved his stuff as 'World Party'

[@smellyhhh]

Wtf? Wallinger is credited on the Album. How can he even claim this. 😂

[@sirlordcomic]

@@smellyhhhI know. Shows his character. The hard part of a song to come up with is the creative part the initial idea. It seems the young Irish writer did that for Angels. It’s not hard then for other semi talented producer/songwriter to build that into a song. Famously in the Stones Keith was the ideas man and Mick worked them into songs. The ideas what separates the great from the good.

[@zandykarasulas]

Interesting. I saw an interview from the time it was released when he literally said the opposite - that he didn't like it and didn't write it. If you could link a video that would be awesome!

[@jonplukehughes2807]

Robbie’s story of sitting in the garden and it just comes to him is highly suspect on its own

[@carolinebcollier]

What’s more is that it’s ultimately not nearly as interesting as the truth. The very relatable, true origin could have helped make it an even bigger hit. Robbie Williams sounds like a terrible person.

[@jonplukehughes2807]

@@carolinebcollier I couldn't agree more, unfortunately it seems like the writer will never get what he deserves

[@Heresy1987]

Dont forget though, Williams was probably sat in that garden.....talking about himself.

[@contentedtiger_]

Yeah, "like, does an angel contemplate my fate?" 🫣 you can actually tell the difference between how they each connect with the words of the song.

[@sanali565]

Rays explanation to his creation of the song makes so much sense !

[@SlickArmor]

I believe Ray. Not only does he have a believable story behind it but he has the first line or two they recorded that first night. And everyone admits the very beginning sets that stage and is the most important nugget. Pay Ray

[@branbroken]

First line or two recorded of robbie singing, it proves nothing of who wrote it, only that the two had discussed it and recorded some test material.

[@TheMinimalistPortfolio]

"I'll love an Angel instead" will never sound the same again. Truly heartbreaking...

[@shugmchugh5107]

That's not one of the lyrics

[@TheMinimalistPortfolio]

@@shugmchugh5107 it is in the original

[@irishguy200007]

The angel being his deceased child.

[@shugmchugh5107]

@@TheMinimalistPortfolio lol

[@Andy-lm2zp]

"I'm loving Angels instead"

[@Peter-gu9ph]

I finally understand what this song is about, now that I've heard about the tragic event that happened to Ray Heffernan which formed the original inspiration.

[@antoninuspius5264]

For many years, Williams has claimed that "She's the one" was "the best song I ever wrote" although the original by World Party was released before his version. Williams is a showman, not a songwriter.

[@toon87mill]

He never claimed he wrote She's The One.

[@fastbowler]

When did Robbie claim this? In the liner notes of the album, Karl is listed as songwriter.

[@toon87mill]

@@fastbowler Robbie even said in the documentary 'Nobody Someday' he didn't like performing that one cause it's not his song

[@thebouncinghearts]

@@toon87mill He often introduced it live as "The best song I ever wrote" this of course could be taken as ironic humour, but it is none the less misleading...and it would have been nice if he had given Karl Wallinger proper credit.

[@slartibartfast7921]

And he’s barely the former.

[@mistertamura6190]

I’d love to see a series focusing on musicians who got robbed of a great song. Sure, in many cases it’s likely difficult to prove, but it would be interesting to hear the stories nonetheless.

[@ct5625]

Oh man, I would love to see someone do a full documentary on the Kurt Cobain/Courtney Love/Billy Corgan song theft legend.

[@Jesus_is_Lord_316]

Robbie acknowledges the original recording of the song in Dublin with Ray. Robbie says the same song is now radically changed, but when Ray hears it it’s not. Robbie gives Ray a few hundreds pounds to quickly send him back home. Yeah - I think we know who’s lying here. Hope Ray gets fair justice one day.

[@danielhughes441]

This happens every day. It’s awful. Billy Ray Cyrus did the same thing with “Achy Breaky Heart.” He was in a band, and a band mate wrote it. Then he left the band, and recorded it and claimed it as his own. I have never had any respect for him since.

[@roostfezza7563]

Are you sure? Id heard another band had recorded it earlier, but cyrus did another version that was a hit. The songwriter was credited.

[@findinggspots6441]

Don Von Tress gets royalties for it though, that's the difference

[@TheDefJamm]

Nah. Sorry. Don Von Tress has sole credit for writing that.

[@TheDefJamm]

@@findinggspots6441 Don Von Tress is actually credited as the ONLY songwriter.

[@HonestWatchReviewsHWR]

This has always been one of the main reasons I've never liked him.

[@mrrootytooty5797]

He gives off massive creeper scumbag douche vibes, i find him inusfferable even for only seconds at a time.

[@MINOUTFTABOU]

Unfortunately, many were blinded. For about 10 years now, the songs have been getting worse and worse and I can't listen to them any more. No development, just singing any song: ‘The stupid fans are buying it!’ The Bake, bake cake song annoys me the most.

[@MINOUTFTABOU]

ROB wanted to have an influence in the fashion world and launched his own jeans brand on the market. After six months, the company was closed. Did he also want to steal from the young designers? This did not work and the work was stopped.

[@martinsodyssey]

Ray has a proper meaningful back story about miscarriage and loving an angel instead… Robbie wrote it because of, eh, eeeeeehm, uh, ooo, let me see… he was sitting in his sister’s back garden. Sounds very much like Robbie did wrong here.

[@a.c.4732]

Personally , I wouldn't believe a word that comes out of Robbie Williams mouth . All ego & self promotion . The original mould for the Narcissistic Personality

[@GuerrierJulius]

That's what front men are made of tbh

[@paulat2515]

So Robbie stays at his place takes photos with Rays family and soon as Ray turns up at Robbie’s he’s like oh no u can’t stay here and basically tells him to do one and go back to Ireland, that speaks volumes, I believe Ray

[@thomasr53]

Well said, I was about to put something up around this, until I saw your comments, why has no one else mentioned this (maybe they have) it's so important that Ray and his family treated Robbie so well but when the shoe is on the other foot, he didn't want to know the guy, where I come from, if you look after me, I look after you, Robbie you have lost me and I was a fan, I also believe Ray

[@nanoboi101]

​@@thomasr53Sickening behaviour

[@fraserwebster8761]

A song meant to mark the passing of a child. Not entirely sure how Robbie sleeps at night. Probably still hoping Liam Gallagher will call him his mate one day.

[@jayhpaq]

It wouldn’t have hurt to have given Ray a cowriting credit along with Guy and Robbie. Unfortunately when it comes to money, selfishness and greed win out more often than not.

[@starlightsign8666]

had he even been granted a single point on the single, his first royalty cheque would have been £40,000...first of many!

[@aartjetwinkel]

Yeah he should've been granted points, even if he'd only written one chord or word or just helped Robbie write this. Give credit where credit is due.

[@tonycowin]

He is credited but sold his rights for the seven grand so doesn't get any points. Robbie's publisher screwed him over though the lad's lawyer did an awful job. They should have demanded to hear the recored version before handing over any claim for cash.

[@tonycowin]

@OnafetsEnovap Yep it's a great cautionary tale. As you say under our law copyright is automatically gained at the moment of creation. It's having the evidence and good advisors if those rights are ever breached or manipulated by another party as in this case.

[@nematode9223]

What a tangled web we weave, when first we practice to deceive.

[@Peter-sk5vg]

He could have given him a point!! That's the friends you find in music. The fact that he paid him at all tells you that there is a kernel of truth to this.

[@nickandrews2255]

Absolutely to then after say he made it up is a huge red flag sad to see this people with lots of money always do this it sucks to screw over your fellow man for cash

[@james1658]

The reason he was paid off, is because if it went to court, it could go either way, as no way to prove either of them wrote it. Judge would likely order that 'Ray', would get x% of royalties for the song. However, I will add, back in 95 I new Robbie was a talentless piece of ..... Until watching this video, did I understand how talentless he was.

[@MINOUTFTABOU]

@@james1658 As one of the Gallagher brothers once said: ‘He (RW) will always be the fat one from TT!’ Back then, RW really wanted to be part of the band Oasis. RW himself admitted this in an interview. Noel was ‘not amused’ because he was the songwriter. Two . . . NO three top dogs are too many and Noel clearly showed his position.

[@nickandrews2255]

@@paulrichards6894 exactly

[@jase8943]

“Is he a good song writer?” Robbie: “yeah hes good….he wrote Angels” 😂

[@h879xx]

Wouldn’t open the curtains if he was playing in my garden. He’s the Milli Vanilli of boy bands. The musical world is full of these type of people.

[@lozD83]

"He got the the end of the verse and didn't know where to go. I suggested going to the chorus". This guy is a genius!!

[@Winter-CIG]

😂

[@ThePaulOLoughlin]

Wait, write that down, delete the video, we've stumbled upon the holy grail!!

[@ryanrusso2954]

Proves he wrote the song.

[@Cloudbusting31]

Williams and Chambers had a falling out some years ago over Chambers wanting to renegotiate his cut of the songwriting credits. It was well known that Chambers was the one responsible for all those hits.

[@domm.427]

I was so confused about why Robbie had suddenly stopped putting out great music in the mid-00’s, until I realised what you’ve pointed out. He’s a performer, not an artist.

[@brianbell3836]

@@domm.427 He's a prick, not a human being.

[@michaelmulhall5007]

All you have to do is listen to rudebox when chambers left

[@MINOUTFTABOU]

@@michaelmulhall5007 I only heard the song ‘Rudebox’ once and not for a minute and I knew: ‘I don't like this song!’ There really is a difference between after and before Chambers. One song was really bad after the Chambers era. We mocked ‘Bake, bake cake song’

[@ar5624]

Absolutely, Robbie can barely even sing let alone write a decent song

[@2660016A]

Robbie isn’t a musician - like so many of them, he was a pretty face who had everything handed to him by the machine and, it seems in this case taking advantage of someone. Gary Barlow was the musical talent in take that - he was more deserving of the level of success that Robbie was given.

[@betrion7]

Welp; I guess he did... "take that" 🙈

[@parlance.electricco]

*splash cymbal*

[@paulbradley705]

He took everything.

[@mike_laughfeed]

"Rob" from "Take That"

[@thesoundlikechameleons2082]

😂

[@nichtswiezuvor]

Nomen est omen!

[@DanielEaglestone]

The fat one that dances 😂

[@brianbell3836]

Clues.

[@stuartstovall2849]

Ray wasn't afraid to leave a comment on this video... Has Robbie left a comment? Not saying that answers everything. But it does seem like a sign of something. Robbie???

[@natashamonks8476]

I believe Ray's story. It just makes more sense. Robbie should be ashamed of himself!

[@nicostadi]

In Nashville there's a saying: "A third for a word" or "Change a Word, Get a Third". And in LA, my personal and a common general philosophy is to give "even splits" (I’m a writer/producer). Now there can be differences of course when the song leaves the room and other people get added later, which is common. But even if you are JUST IN THE ROOM and you contribute NOTHING, you're gonna get a credit. My theory on this is that if during the session you figure out that a person isn't very good, or isn't contributing much if anything, then the most likely scenario is that I just won't work with them again, unless I know their history of being a good writer and they just seem to have a bad day etc etc. It’s very very rare that someone contributes nothing btw… personally speaking. Ray has his version on his KZbin that you can listen to and what’s interesting is not even the similarities all over, but the fact that it’s clearly still it’s own song and different from the final “Angels”. It doesn’t go to the massive chorus and all that. It feels too authentic. If he was faking it, he could have forced it way closer. I think Occam’s Razor says that the most likely scenario is that Robbie (as a non-writer) stumbled on a great start to a song, recognized it’s potential, took it to a professional, had it finished, lied about it not having similarities worthy of credit, paid off the guy because he needed money, took advantage of the situation, and went off his marry way. Robbies story more or less: As a non-writer (it sounds like), he wrote this beautiful start to a song and just left it sitting around as-is… (ok possible). Then he goes to a pub, meets a random songwriter and decided to get smashed with him and in the morning wants to for some reason record the idea with him (ok strange, but possible)? But this other guy actually doesn’t do anything during said recording even though he’s a songwriter?? Or I guess he did (he had to), but it wasn’t worthy of giving credit?! So his claim is: literally not even a smidge of an idea from that recording was left on the final master. Nothing. Why would Robbie want to record it then and there? Why with the other guys singing on it too? Why is it presumably now a full song and not just a verse?? My bet is that BECAUSE he didn’t write it, he wanted a record of it for later so he could memorize it and claim it as his own start. I bet he felt guilty of going in with some big producer/writer like Guy Chambers having no good ideas of his own. Point being… EVEN IF… after the pub, in the wee hours of the morning, when they smashed a few more beers and talked about life, death and angels… Ray ONLY contributed one word, one line, or just the fleeting idea of waterfalls… and that ended up in the song, he deserves co-writing credit.

[@ruhever9195]

The fact that this song is actually about a miscarriage of the girlfriend of his former friend and he just lies about it and makes millions with it is so absolutely fucked wowow

[@johnboyle1513]

Robbie and Guy have pretty much admitted all this.The best song never written by them-Williams owes this guy his career

[@TheDefJamm]

Just give the guy a few million £. Nothing to Williams but life changing for Ray.

[@OrangeMicMusic]

@6:25 if you say, there's no evidence who wrote the song, why the video has the title "The greatest songwriting theft of all time" ?

[@5starcomment]

The fact that robbie avoided ray tells me everything...

[@101RadioheadCovers]

"How I wrote Angels, I was sitting in my sister's back garden so I was like: Ok, I sit and wait, does an angel contemplate my fate?" 😂 Robbie clearly has no connection to the song and has no idea how to write one.

[@seaninness334]

I felt this, too. I have no idea who Robbie is until seeing this video, but THAT is a horseshit story. Robbie ripped off the song. He's also a crap liar.

[@thecornedbeefcouncil9792]

Robbie needed Guy Chambers to tell him after the first verse you should go to the chorus. My gut feeling is that Ray is telling the truth….

[@shanefitzgerald2614]

Absolutely ridiculous, like something David Brent would say

[@dondamon4669]

I don't believe he wrote it as it's Robbie Williams but that's not a reason to think it! Songs come from anywhere at anytime,have you heard Lennon and McCartney talk about songwriting? You can write a song hungover watching TV thinking about nothing! You don't have to be going through an emotional thing to feel ffs

[@JoaquinStick]

@@dondamon4669 Well yeah, that's Lennon and McCartney. This is Robbie Williams we're talking about. Very suspect that a song like 'Angel' would just "come to him" out of nothing.

[@PASHKULI]

Roy deserves royalties, maybe 10% which would be a fair deal fer him!

[@cuckootown9478]

To be fair he should get 100%

[@GaryCareyMusic]

The standard 'Nashville' approach is equal splits. So 33.33% Particularly if his personal experience was the origin of the song.

[@Yimello]

@@cuckootown9478 Wouldn't really be fair on Guy Chambers who wrote the majority of it and produced it.

[@dinitis]

I never liked this song. Always thought it sounded fake. Seeing this now i can see why.

[@thepochade5992]

This happened to my late husband with the song Iris released by the Goo Goo Dolls. Every time we hear it, we can hear his guitar.

[@zimpon]

What ???

[@colinfarley7982]

So if I say Bddddd you know what im saying?

[@ChrisMustard]

I'm into trigonometry, I'm loving angles instead.

[@a.c.4732]

I'm into healthy eating , I'm loving apples instead ... Hey , there's a song there , but don't tell RW 😲

[@ChrisMustard]

@@a.c.4732 what sort of melon is unable to live abroad? A can't elope.

[@Sthuont]

Trigonometry or Germanic tribes? 🧐

[@ChrisMustard]

@@Sthuont are you trying to trigger me? Haha

[@Sthuont]

@@ChrisMustard Never! Just saying though Jutes>Angles

[@laabuela00]

As a composer and songwriter for over 30 years, I think Ray´s story its more credible. His explanation of the meaning of the song makes so much more sense and coherence. That's how a good song is born, after moments of deep pain and shock. Not sitting in a lake waiting for an angel to appear and tell me my future - that makes no sense, actually.

[@aidanoc19]

I heard something very similar to this story from my brother about 20 years ago, my brother's a professional session musician in Ireland. Somehow the story had become Guy and Robbie drowned their sorrows in Dublin together, Guy a song writer without a singer, Robbie a singer without songs 😂. In that version Robbie didn't write it either, so I'm inclined to believe Ray!