Dune part 2 sucks

Original article - davidvstewart.substack.com/p/...
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[@MechShark]

Now THIS is anti-fragility! Couldn't stand this Dune adaptation solely because of the direction they took Chani. Bonkers casting decision, and the character was "rebel action man but with breasts". The trope of all modern tropes. 👼

[@Estupendomagnifico1]

Chani is described as having an elfin beauty in the book. No offense, but that's just not Zendaya.

[@marcinmalczewski310]

At the same time I got CHALLENGERS movie comercial in the cinema. Where Zendaya has duble romance. In the same time in dune she act emotional angry because of Dune political marriage of Paul. So its ok for female and not good for male? Paul so eger to get Chani laid so he renounce his Atride heritage just to moment later use House Atrides ring to pact with Emperor and then open Atrides nuclear aresenal with his Atride DNA

[@obscur_artiste]

The first question a friend asked me after he watched it was, "What is the Spice?"

[@DVSPress]

Saffron. The universe is just really into paella.

[@obscur_artiste]

@@DVSPress At least there's a legitimate reason for saffron to cost like gold. I'd rather see an off-the-wall reinterpretation of Dune, like what Jodorowsky had planned, than this kind of pretentious reëdit that pretends to be the authentic Dune story. A good Dune would probably need two different actors to play the young Paul that goes into the desert, and an older one to come back out of it and win the long war. When you described the monochrome Geddi Prime, I could only wonder, how amazing would it have looked if the Harkonnens had vivid red hair against that palette?

[@isaiahsmith7123]

​@@DVSPressAnd here I was thinking it was nutmeg 😂

[@DVSPress]

@@isaiahsmith7123 well nutmeg IS a hallucinogen.

[@karel3183]

Now now, the books clearly state that it smells like cinnamon. Not sure if it also tastes as such...

[@MrNpc81]

Zendaya in Dune might be the most egregious miscasting in history, the warmth of Chani is just... missing

[@tamerofhorses2200]

It's a deliberate miscasting. It's practically a spit in the face for the fans and the audience.

[@Crash103179]

Chani was not written or portrayed properly, but as far as modern Hollywood casting goes, they could have done much worse.

[@MrNpc81]

@Crash103179 I see where you're coming from, but this is so bad it detracts from the movie experience

[@lovethydeath]

I feel the casting is one of the most contentious things about the modern movies

[@BubblegumCrash332]

In part two the second half she seems to hate Paul and she looks like she kept wanting to attack him.

[@galacticusX]

This is another movie that "contemporizes" (for lack of a better word) something that should be evergreen. Paul always breathes for Chani's approval like a little puppy and she and her Fremen sisters look like space Kurdistan rebels. Love and romance is diminished and there's 0 chemistry between them. Zendaya and Paul do look like teens who just make out and hook up a couple of times. Terrible.

[@DVSPress]

They remind me of high schoolers playing Romeo and Julliet - in that they are awkward, but also clearly gay.

[@BebopBandicoot777]

@@DVSPress 🤣

[@thhunter]

I didn't hate it, but I didn't really like it either. The Chani changes are just bizarre. The worst part, I think, is just how rushed and compressed everything feels. They took a decade long struggle and made it feel like it happened over a long weekend. Alia isn't even born. They left out Paul and Chani's son. Paul's rise is basically just Stilgar vouching for him at a cookout. I still think the SyFy miniseries is the better adaptation.

[@Age_of_Apocalypse]

"The Chani changes are just bizarre." And those changes ruined the movie to a large extent. 😞

[@613harbinger316]

I still hold the Scifi Channel miniseries as the best rendition of Dune. Even with its awful CG, costuming and sets that would embarrass high school theater productions.

[@malafakka8530]

I agree that it felt rushed, but in the book, it all takes place within 2-3 years, not a decade. Paul's rise wasn't done well here because of those 2-3 years, during which he earned their trust, respect, and loyalty. Why would the Fremen in the movie follow someone they barely knew or heard of? In the movie, he is struggling and having doubts to use/manipulate the Frement, but then (pretty suddenly) decides otherwise. I might not have been paying attention, but I couldn't quite comprehend that change of mind in the movie.

[@malafakka8530]

Wasn't it the death of his son that made him change his mind in the books? Well, that's definitely a good and comprehensible reason and not "alright, let's do it."

[@plo617]

Exactly. The removal of the Spacing Guild was the last straw for me. Their presence in the story is the entire reason why the Spice is important and how Paul gains and maintains his hold over the imperium.

[@48Foxhound]

There is another element that I found quite odd that David touched on. It was the strange bifurcation of the Fremen into religious and irreligious groups - specifically the Fremen from the south are the believers and the Fremen from the north are secular. As David points out, this really diverges from the book because the Fremen are a very religious people. Making the northern Fremen very cynical and secular felt like the director was trying to mirror modern western culture or his own views and really weakens one of the core story elements of Paul being a messiah figure.

[@chrislutz416]

Buddy who has never read the books liked both movies. I watched the second one with him. The next night he wanted to watch the Lynch version to see the differences. His comment at the end, "That explained a lot of things I didn't understand." Nothing can be more convicting of DV's 6+ hour Dune than that.

[@DVSPress]

It's crazy because Lynch was able to set it all up in a single two-minute highly memorable scene with the navigator.

[@mattmaddogwheaton4724]

Rachel Young > Zendaya, ALL DAY EVERY DAY!!!

[@Crash103179]

Sean Young?

[@mattmaddogwheaton4724]

@@Crash103179 My honest mistake.

[@faynarawn4164]

I see how you got mixed up: _Sean_ Young played _Rachael_ in Blade Runner.

[@mattmaddogwheaton4724]

@@faynarawn4164 Yep, like I said, honest mistake.

[@UndyingNephalim]

The strangest omission to me is the fact that Paul and Chani have a son who is then murdered by the Emperor in the novel. It's kind of implied the death of Paul's son is what sends him over the edge to change his mind about preventing the galactic jihad he's had visions of and instead launching the jihad against the Imperium himself. Without the death of his son his sudden flip to burn down the galaxy with the Fremen just seems completely random. Having just finished the first Dune book so it's fresh in my mind, I do feel like Paul's mother does come off as not truly believing in the religion she's participating in and just sees it as a tool the Bene Gesserit put in place to gain protection from the Fremen. I feel like that doubt is part of her character and what enabled her to disobey her superiors and sire a son in the first place instead of a daughter. Certainly almost everyone else in the novel, Chani included seems to firmly believe in their religions though.

[@DVSPress]

They really aren't setting up any sequels here, either.

[@faynarawn4164]

_"...Paul's mother does come off as not truly believing in the religion... almost everyone else in the novel... seems to firmly believe in their religions though."_ You are correct. Unfortunately the filmmakers decided it was problematic to have the indigenous people all be so gullible. They also thought it was problematic to have Chani "just" be Paul's lover and mother of his children. So they decided to kill two birds with one stone by making Chani into a skeptical badass, and destroyed the love story in the process.

[@bjornfollin5056]

"I do feel like Paul's mother does come off as not truly believing in the religion she's participating in and just sees it as a tool the Bene Gesserit put in place to gain protection from the Fremen." Well, yes. That is the point of the Missionara Protectiva. The Bene Gesserit don't believe in these superstitions that they've spread for their own benefit. I don't see how that would be unique to Jessica or have anything to do with her disobedience. But perhaps I'm misunderstanding what you're saying.

[@UndyingNephalim]

@@bjornfollin5056 David Stewert made the claim that all the characters believe in their religions in the original Dune novel. While that seems to be true for the most part, I do not believe Jessica does and she comes off as cynically seeing it as a tool of manipulation in the first novel.

[@bjornfollin5056]

@@UndyingNephalim Okay, but Jessica does not have a religion. The novel makes it very clear that the Mahdi myth is put in place on Arrakis by the sisterhood to be able to take control if needed, it's not something they believe in themselves. Jessica does not just cynically see it as a tool for manipulation, it's literally its entire purpose.

[@elijahtiemens5532]

Zendaya looks like a cavewoman supermodel.

[@BebopBandicoot777]

🤣🤣🤣🤣

[@blumiu2426]

Eh, looks are looks. Either your type or not. Homeless or nomadic people live in caves throughout history, so it would be an evolutionary joke to toss about.

[@bigtechisbigbrother8690]

Chalamet looks like a twink.

[@bidu2331324]

You could have stopped with cavewoman

[@BebopBandicoot777]

@@bidu2331324 Lmao! I'm dead💀

[@misterkefir]

THANK YOU! I thought I was crazy for a while with seemingly everyone praising it.. part 1 wasn't really that much better either tbh. I would much rather rewatch the Lynch version again than these new ones.

[@613harbinger316]

You're not alone man. People seem almost _too_ gushy about it, almost like it's become a popular opinion to like it. I wouldn't be surprised if in a year or so we see a surge in "Dune actually kind of sucked" reviews from normies.

[@spacedinosaur8733]

The Dune Spicediver Edit on youtube is a fantastic version.

[@phonepunk7888]

Feel like the series is getting graded on a curve. The internet has brought this great class of critics and a movie like this that is incredibly stylish and has cutting edge aesthetics is bait for any pseudo intellectual who wants to seem cultured. My problem is that I've read the first three books and found the like half really wanting as an adaption already. David Lynch and the 2000s miniseries are far better uses of your time.

[@Estupendomagnifico1]

Frank Herbert wasn't anti-religious. He had a weird take on it, for sure, but he was certainly a pretty spiritually-minded guy, not this Dawkinsian "rationalist" that they turned Chani into. She was clearly a mouthpiece for Villeneuve, not for Herbert.

[@oli.r7697]

Oh and Zendaya looking ugly is not accepting western patriarchal, heteronormative,repressive norms or something like that :)

[@hotpopcorncake]

Hahaha Based

[@scepticalbeliever]

Right? Can't objectify beauty any more

[@oORiseAboveOo]

Its defeating the male gaze.

[@razzledazzle15]

Be fair. She’s very pretty for a black woman

[@hotpopcorncake]

@@razzledazzle15 Not black

[@Jared_Wignall]

I wasn’t a fan of either film. They are quite overrated in my opinion.

[@marknotestine424]

I overall enjoyed the movie even with flaws, especially in the low bar era of Disney Star Wars. The biggest fails to me that almost ruined it in order are: 1. Casting of Chani 2. Rewriting Chani into the cynical opposition rather than a supporter of Paul 3. No exposition on Spice and politics 4. Christopher Walken as the Emperor

[@keegobricks9734]

What... you fail to realize... is that, the spice... must, flow...

[@theadmiral4625]

MORE! I need MORE!! Give me MORE COWBELL!!! 🐄🔔

[@DocFlamingo]

This is a case of a mediocre movie looking like genius because it's surrounded by so much garbage.

[@rollerr]

I sure do love critical theory and feminism being shoved into absolutely every piece of media possible It's not getting old at all

[@univeriseman8008]

I didn't read the books and dont plan on to. But the romance here felt YA styled forced and I'm pretty sure dune ain't no teenage romance. Paul was also an angsty teenage who needed to stfu

[@tamerofhorses2200]

Just curious, but why don't you ever plan on reading it?

[@Crash103179]

Read the book. It's worth it. It's not that Paul + Chani's was YA, but, rather, Herbert was exploring other thoughts and didn't bother with the romance.

[@univeriseman8008]

@@Crash103179 he's not my type of author. I just listen to the lore that's about it

[@DVSPress]

First book is very good. I like the books after that but they are...very different. Much more philosophical and yet less interesting. It's ok to stop after book 1 IMO.

[@barbarabaker1457]

​@@univeriseman8008 as much as I highly recommend the audiobook, if it's not your style of writing, I can't think of a movie I'd recommend for the first one, but since you saw this garbage, you might be able to understand the Children of Dune miniseries, which was very well directed and fixed a lot of the acting problems/budget issues of the dune miniseries. It gives you a real look into their actual romance as well.

[@Sepdick1]

I also was very dissapointed. 2 long movies and we don't know anything about the spice and the universe. :(

[@matthewblankenzee5452]

The point to the first book was that Paul was a hero. I agree. It's the problem with the filmmaker not understanding or not caring what the author wrote. It's in the 2nd book that Paul has his downward decent. The best story version of Dune, imho, is the SciFi channel mini-series. It has it's flaws and it didn't have a huge budget, but the story was there.

[@JohahnDiechter]

He wrote the second book because people thought Paul was a hero in the first book and Paul is not a hero. Paul is seeking revenge and if you read the last page of the book it is made very clear that he is not a force for good.

[@rsync9490]

This is why the pretentious people on the internet say people don't have media literacy. Paul was always meant to be a critique on messianic figures like Muhammad, David, Solomon etc and to ask readers to always question authority.

[@ano_nym]

@@rsync9490 It's also about how once a movement has started it can't necessarily be stopped, even by the leader himself.

[@rsync9490]

@@ano_nym The Shepard crusade comes to mind.

[@bidu2331324]

Most powerful man on a planet with messianic status in society shacks up with an annoying c wordy 5/10. How realistic. Stilgar is the only likeable character is the whole film.

[@Estupendomagnifico1]

Yeah and they tried to turn him into a laughing stock.

[@srottfaen]

@@Estupendomagnifico1 They DID turn him into a laughing stock! They turned my man into a joke! An IDIOT! He has none of the pragmatic skepticism he has in the books, he just jumps on the Paul wagon, no doubts about it. He literally says "I believe Paul is the Madi and I'm willing to die for him" as soon as they get to Seitch Tabr. And then the audience along with the "Northern Fremen" can laugh at him and all the other religious Fremen over how antiquated and primitive they are. Because we know that's the only way Hollywood is willing to portray religion people in these days.

[@briandhaze5906]

I liked the movie a lot, better than part 1, but Chani did put a damper on the whole experience. In the book, she was far from the cynical brat we got. In the book, she had Paul's children already and was actually a High Priestess set to succeed Jessica as Reverend Mother.

[@ano_nym]

Or as someone put it more bluntly: "In the book Chani was ride or die."

[@SouthpawZer0]

The books constantly use the term "water fat" to describe the easy life of off-worlders, and that is exactly how I would describe Zendaya in this movie. She doesn't look Fremen. She looks Californian. From another perspective, I would have been okay with Chani serving as a foil for Stilgar, but she should have come around to fully believe in Paul by the end.

[@walulu6531]

Timothy Chalamet would have made a better Chani than Zendaya

[@TheDarkRaven]

Stawp. 😂

[@connormcclenny9681]

My biggest gripe is the shortening of the time elapsed, and Christopher Walken, plus the spiderman girl

[@karel3183]

The problem is when all the other current Hollywood movies suck so hard, a movie which is ok (in case of part1) or sucks less (part2) is considered great.

[@karel3183]

And yes, Timothe and Zendaya don't hold a candle to Alec Newman and Barbora Kodetová!

[@DeepInsideZettaiRyouiki]

If Lynch had been left alone to finish his masterpiece the way HE wanted...that would be something. What we got was a movie so castrated, that Lynch does not even want to have anything to do with It ...and I'm not surprised. Have you EVER had a situation as a creator, when you design something great, and someone stops you in the middle of your work and rest of the world start to rate/judge you on such UNFINISHED work? Like that's your actual vision? Poor Lynch, I still prefer his movie. Dune Part 1 was kind of great - cluster of things that ware counter to books, like using lasers against shielded ornithopters ...WTF - if hit that would cause nuclear-like explosion reaction on both ends! Part 2 was a disappointment. As Paul ... I liked those moments when he rises his voice, at least puss meatier was mitigated somewhat. BUT I loved Zendaya as Chani because Paul could kick her out and choose other tail, her crying at the end of the movie was balm for my heart =D

[@spacedinosaur8733]

Have you watched Spicediver Dune edit of Lynch's movie. He did a very good job.

[@ano_nym]

I seriously wonder what they are gonna do now for the next one... Is he gonna have an actual happy marriage with Irulan? Is Chani just gonna live in the dessert on her own?

[@MCCrleone354]

Bit of a correction: the Spacing Guild are mentioned in Part 1. When the Harold of the change asks Duke Leto Atreides if he accepts taking charge of spice mining on Arrakis, members of the Spacing Guild are present to witness the signing. Duke Leto also asks Thufir Hawat how much it would cost for them to travel to the planet Caladan: Hawat responds that it would require the efforts of a few Guild navigators among other more monetary costs. Edit: Paul is watching a documentary narrated by a man who explains what thespice is: the spice has great health benefits & is used by the Spacing Guild to fold space; the narrator also says that without spice, interstellar travel is IMPOSSIBLE. I know it’s clunky, but it’s there. I think it’s an instance where the filmmakers could’ve been more creative in explaining the spice’s purpose.

[@pittsburghboyertown3821]

This. It's in there, but it's not emphasized near as much as it should be. You do pick up on it better in a repeat viewing. It's space crack that actually gives everyone some super benefit or power. You wouldn't know that from watching the movies once though.

[@613harbinger316]

It would've been an interesting bit to include the fact that it extended life and was addicting (something I think was not generally known by its users), meaning that those with power and money were likely to have a lot of access to it giving them more power and more time to exercise it. It would also have made them all the more vulnerable to the absolute monopoly on it that Paul gets in the end, and explain why the Spacing Guild was so desperate to make any deal to make sure "The Spice Must Flow".

[@MCCrleone354]

@@613harbinger316 Agreed. I forgot the Villeneuve movies didn’t make the addictive & life extending properties clear. They did not

[@freedone.]

I thought Part 2 was awful. It was like watching paint dry. I had no interest in the characters. I watched about 30 minutes and then turned it off. Part 1 put me to sleep. After 30 minutes I tuned out of that one too. I think people are so desperate for something halfway decent that anything that is above mediocre is overly praised. Hollywood is trying to save itself and people are starved for entertainment. They are colluding to make these Dune films classics but they are unpleasant to watch.

[@isaiahsmith7123]

If you enjoy the David Lynch version or want to see the 1984 Dune, I reccomend the Spicediver cut which you can find for free here on KZbin. It adds some cut content, re orders some scenes and edits the ending some, in short the closest to a directors cut we'll get and a decent watch.

[@thomascraiker6449]

My dad and I watched this one big screen. We both disliked Zendaya. Austin Butler did a great job. Honestly, I think we both prefered the David Lynch version. To be honest Having that introduction on the David Lynch version allowed us to follow the movie so much easier. Here, if you don't know the plot, you will not know whats going on.

[@deanerhockings-reptilianhu8701]

They left out the je... I mean the Spacing Guild!

[@billyfighter6945]

Read the first two dune books, but I'll never be interested in the trash hollywood comes up with lol.

[@rageintothelight]

I never understood the zendaya casting in this movie she isnt that good of an actress but someone decided she is the "it" girl of the moment so here we are

[@GeordiLaForgery]

Agree the casting was bad for Paul

[@defectiveindustries]

He was bad in The King too You end up liking Robert Pattison more, who is the antagonist

[@GeordiLaForgery]

@@defectiveindustries I haven't seen that. Funny but I think Paul in the original Dune and the Dune mini tv series weren't great either. Is there any actor you think could play Paul?

[@defectiveindustries]

@GeordiLaForgery No one from Hollywood comes to mind. You'd want someone like Christian Bale but he's too old now

[@GeordiLaForgery]

@@defectiveindustries Wierd coincidence but Christian Bale was the first person that came to my head too.

[@LordMalice6d9]

​@@GeordiLaForgeryChristian Bale if he was 20 years younger.

[@Kilgore6549]

Timothy Chalumet and Zendaya are the two worst casting choices I’ve seen in a while. I also hated how Paul’s sister was not born and she has conversations with her mother while in the womb. Chani’s character was completely changed. I didn’t like how they compressed years into months. Lastly, I think they dropped the ball on the final fight scene. They left out the fact that Harkonen use poison on their knives. It could have built on the tension.

[@aylmer666]

Two other things bugged me: The whole southern half of the planet just casually written off by the Harkonnens as “uninhabitable” so they never bothered to patrol there is ridiculous and needed more attention than a one-off line to cover why. Also, the characters do so much sandworm riding that it gets very cheapened and seems like an incredibly common form of mass transit on the planet when you know it’d attract all kinds of attention. The people riding it would get bucked off with all the flying sand and inconsistent motion but the movie treats them like they’re basically riding on top of a flat train.

[@Shaitanshammer]

Also. Frank Herbert gave Paul and his son Leto, "Terrible Purpose" and "The Golden Path" intent to save humanity. Which is a moral imperative. Nullifies all the anti hero junk.

[@onetwo5155]

It was pretty, superficial and pointless. Apart from what you said, their military tactics in every single engagement also made no sense. I really wish people who want to portray warfare actually studied how it works first. The scene where the Emperor is arrested by the Fremen had me laughing at how bad Chalomagne was in this; he literally sounded like an edgy cosplayer mimicking a cool villain speaking a language he doesn't understand. Barring small roles and Stilgar, I think the entire movie was charisma starved; even what should be resounding, moving speeches were delivered in low or screechy, uninspiring tones.

[@draculax13]

The first one wasn't that great but the sequel felt like everything bad was made worse.

[@HaroldCrews]

From what I remember from the books, the Fremen sleeping chambers contained spice fabric tapestries and rugs.

[@Shaitanshammer]

Even in the later books there's no heel turn for Paul and the conspiracy is shown as bad. The only character to take a heel turn is Alia and that is motivated by her grandfather possesing her.

[@argowal]

Finally someone calling out zendaya as Chani, I've been saying she's not up to par and only getting flak

[@Age_of_Apocalypse]

👍👍 for the review! I really liked Dune Part 1, but Part 2, I was literally bored; 6 out of 10 in my book. 🤦‍♂ David Lynch "long" version of Dune 1984 was better; they had a better cast for Paul (Kyle MacLachlan) and Chani (Sean Young). In the book, Chani is an uninterested side character, but of course Hollywood nowadays had to give her more space and it absolutely didn't work. 😖 The ending was horrible and we learned that we're gonna get Part 3 and I don't care. It probably will deviate even further from the books. Too bad, I had faith in Denis Villeneuve to give us a great adaptation, but deception at the end. 😥

[@PsychoBible]

Thanks. Glad my wife and I aren't the only ones underwhelmed by these movies, while everyone else is going gaga over them. There's no hero in these movies. No one to root for. And the story is super-confusing.

[@malafakka8530]

Overall, I liked Chalamet as Paul, but can understand that others don't. Changing Chani's character didn't work for me because she is too antagonistic towards Paul. I couldn't believe their romance plot because of that and because they lacked on-screen chemistry. Bardem is a great actor, but I did not like that they used Stilgar for comedic relief in that way. He often looked like a naive fool. Christopher Walken was both miscast and underused. Feyd Rautha lacked depth and was reduced to just being a really evil villain. I don't see that a people like the Fremen who are living in harsh conditions would be split in their faith, at least not to thar degree. They need something to hold on to.

[@spacedinosaur8733]

Exactly for the last, life on Arrakis is harsh and hard and often deadly, the Fremen use their faith to keep themselves alive and a united people. If I remember the books, Stilgar says the only people that lack faith have spent too long away from the desert in Arakeem with the outworlders, non-longer truly Fremen.

[@Estupendomagnifico1]

I'll be honest, I loved the original Dune book because I thought it was just an epic revenge story in an awesome space setting with some cool mystical elements added to it. I saw Paul Atreides as 100% a cool hero character. When I read the next two, I hated them because they turned Paul into this horrible tyrant (plus the stories just became completely bonkers). I get that this was always the author's intent but I hated it. I actually enjoyed the much-maligned Butlerian Jihad much more, because it was just a space opera adventure without any of the lofty philosophising.

[@MichaelMinneboo]

I switched it off after about 15 minutes. I was just very bored and uninterested watching the second part. Funny, the thing you said about the settings, the homes and the question where is the stuff people use, I had that same question when I saw the first one. A bedroom without any closets or dressers? Where to these people put their clothes?

[@613harbinger316]

I think the casting of Christopher Walken as the Emperor was worth it only for the amazing joke video someone made combining the 80s Dune and Balls of Fury. Gloriously hilarious.

[@jpwright87]

11:47 it's sort of like the Anakin problem in episode 2. They made him very dark, essentially a monster BEFORE his fall, which obviously screws up the character arc.

[@DVSPress]

OG clone wars animation was the best Anakin arc.

[@zingpulse4138]

No Space Guild, No Spice. Now let's do STAR WARS with No Jedi and No Force.

[@jonathanwyse5271]

Good heavens! Don't put that out into the universe. We're a hair's breadth from that already.

[@tb8865]

Being familiar with the book actually made the movie more confusing for me in a way, mainly the timeline. The way it was edited made it seem like there were time skips, which happen in the book, but then Paul's sister hadn't been born yet even by the end so the story took place over less than 9 months? A strange choice given that the pacing and style of the film would have allowed for Alia to show up as a little kid like in the old movie and not much would have been different. it would have been a more believable timeframe anyway.

[@vd00]

The lack of exposition really bothers me, cause, as you said, if you haven't read the book(s) you don't get enough to grasp the finer points of the plot. Visually stunning, but the Lynch movie was more enjoyable.

[@plo617]

Been saying this since the film released. And have been hit with the "It's an adaptation of the book, of course there's going to be changes" any time I complained about the egregious changes/removals from the book.

[@DVSPress]

Only part of my criticism is the adaptation; the movie's story just doesn't work as it is on screen. Why the director did this is hypothetical, but I think it was because he didn't trust the source material to stand on its own or just didn't like it.

[@StickNik]

@@DVSPress He likes the direct sequel book so seems like he's constructing things to best reach his adaptation of that in the third film.

[@fightingfortruth9806]

Chani, in this film, perfectly represents the modern woman. My own wife treats me almost the same way.

[@wallybiii]

I saw the David Lynch version of Dune in the theater when I was pretty young and it had a profound impact on me. My main critique is that it has the very obvious appearance of something that was made in the 80s, however, I think it's still holds up very well today. You're right that it handled the narrative aspect of the story much better in '84. I also thought the casting was very good, with the exception of just a few characters like Sting as Feyd. The Baron and Patrick Stuart as Gurney were great. Even the 2000 era Syfy channel miniseries did a better job telling the story, and cast Paul and Chani better in my opinion. Timothy Chalamet is the worst Paul, hands down. He radiates feminine energy. Also: gender and race swapped Liet Kynes is a poor follow-up to Max Von Sydow's version of the character and is distracting from the story.

[@mikavirtanen7029]

Yeah, casting in Dune '84 with the exception of bizarre Sting was truly incredible. I'm just disappointed that Richard Jordan as Duncan Idaho got so little screentime.

[@DeusExDraconian]

I haven't bothered to watch the movies, but I imagine it has to do something with the nihilism and materialism of Hollywood writers getting in the way of the theme which is "freedom is actually pretty cool, but you have to suffer for it, but not having freedom is worse than suffering".

[@BebopBandicoot777]

Here's a machine 💩!!! LMFAO!! I almost choked on my water!🤣💀

[@TheAutistWhisperer]

I remember enjoying it in the cinema, but after awhile I started to dislike it.

[@theCarbonFreeze]

So many movies are like that these days. Exciting thrills on the big screenbut afterwards the flaws become apparent and you realize it sucked. That was my experience with Dark Knight Rises, Barbie, Endgame and Hateful Eight.

[@TheAutistWhisperer]

@@theCarbonFreeze Hateful Eight was the opposite for me, didn't like it at first, but then I liked. It's not one of my favourite films but I don't hate it. The Dark Knight Rises I instantly dislike and still do.

[@ano_nym]

@@TheAutistWhisperer at least it gave us the amazing plane scene.

[@youngkingdom8131]

You seem to be in an uncharacteristically whimsical mood in this video. The laughs around the theme of the ending, the fart noises - glad to see you enjoying yourself!

[@robfromjersey7899]

How can you have a Dune movie and not mention the Spacing Guild? Their need for the spice is the whole point of the plot.

[@DVSPress]

It's also what the spice DOES that matters. It's not rocket fuel, but we never find out in the movies.

[@613harbinger316]

@@DVSPress If you've watched News Radio, you can picture in your head Phil Hartman screaming into a mic, "Rocket Fuel! Daaaaamn!"

[@whereeaglesdare9584]

Wasn’t a single quote or dialogue that had any soul. Also couldn’t recall any decent sense of humor either. The last battle other than the shot of the worms being ridden in sucked and was probably like 3 minutes long and boring.

[@bumblyjack]

I don't like any adaptation of Dune. For me, the epigraphs are the highlight of the books. I also really like the transmogrification of all the institutions of society over the millennia covered in the series. Neither of these high points make it onto the silver or small screen.

[@sethman75]

First proper take on both movies. They look fantastic and the score is amazing but are they as hollow and vapid as any of the other hollywood movies over the past 20 years. Which is a real effort considering how story rich the dune books

[@lionelmessi4953]

Pretty much my take. There are filmmakers who are visual oriented and care less about the story like Ridley Scott. But Villeneuve doesn't just not care about stories, he HATES stories, stories get in the way of his visuals. He's like "oh my god I have to interrupt this beautiful picture with some exposition now." once you understand that's how he views films, you get why his storytelling is stunted and trash. It's like he's actively sabotaging his own movie. But the reason people absolutely love them is because he blasts loud emotional scores to - much like a laughing track in a sitcom - signal the emotional cues he wants the audience to have, (but without the necessary dramaturgical elements to pull it off) and it still works because the modern movie audience are in there to watch a spectacle and couldn't care less for real human moments. It's as much an indictment on audiences who fall for this shit as it is for Villeneuve who hides his storytelling impotence behind a big budget.

[@blumiu2426]

To him films are visual, which is true. However, I feel narrative needs to come across in some way other than non-verbal. It can be done, he does it somewhat, but not in this film I feel.

[@lionelmessi4953]

@@blumiu2426 Watch No Country for Old Men, or Hana-bi, or Vertigo, or Fury Road, or A Fistful of Dollars, or.... tons of other movies that use very little dialogue to push a narrative but Villeneuve can't do it because his visuals are sterile and his storytelling is weak.

[@phonepunk7888]

Feel like a lot of filmmakers now have a different person in mind in terms of "audience". We are not just talking the general public, random people who would go to a theater. A lot of filmmakers make movies for self styled "film nerds", ie themselves. There is a whole industry of people just waiting to pat themselves on the back for consuming something that "broke new ground" or whatever. There aren't many amazing movies coming out either, so as long as the film looks prestigious, it doesn't matter if it really is deep or not.

[@galacticusX]

I agree very much. Reminds me of a line in Amadeus when Salieri tells Mozart "you think too much of the Viennese, you didn't put a good bang in the end to tell them the play was over".

[@chrislutz416]

This is why I've always found his films overrated. They are all style and very little substance.

[@Shaitanshammer]

Denis Villeneuve seems to loath Frank Herbert's verbage. I will point out, Herbert "Deconstructed" Paul so much... He handed the story over to his son, who became a God Emperor with the Moral Imperative to save humanity from destruction with the Golden Path and would go on to present another Superhuman in the form of Miles Teg from the same genetic line with that same imperative. I'll avoid going on about how sometimes creators suffer from wanting to be relevant in the moment and will impose meaning on their work that isn't supported by the art itself.

[@DVSPress]

I'm actually very fond of God Emperor of Dune as a book.

[@Shaitanshammer]

@@DVSPress Its weird for sure. But my point was, if Herbert's intent was to undo Paul, he sure chose a strange way by replacing him with another even stronger super being who he also gives a moral imperative to in the Golden Path and a few books later gives the Superman Miles Teg. He makes them more powerful and on top of says the fate of all humanity depends upon them achieving their goals.

[@snoo333]

I have seen the David lynch movie many times since it came out. so coming into the recent movies i was excited to see how all the characters would be portrayed. Saw the first and was like where are navigators? Where is the emperor? Okay, maybe we will see them in part two. got excited again to see the Emperor of the known universe. aaaand we get a old dejected man walking around in his pajamas. I was like okay maybe when he shows up in arrakas he will be in this full regalia. nope, he is still wearing his pajamas. looking like a beggar. His steward from the first movie was more regal than him. WTF? Where the hell are the navigators? There is no mention of the CHOM. Zendya was not a good fit for sure. I had to give a 30 minute presentation to my nieces and nephews on the dune story before we went to see the movies because there is no way they would understand what was going on.

[@georgecisneros5281]

And speaking of the clearly unintentionally “based” elements of the film, like what is shown by the finale, don’t forget how Villeneuve and company obviously try, throughout, to create a weirdly direct, 1 to 1, reflection of the historical North/South divide in the U.S. by attempting to portray Stilgar, the Southerner, as this blind and borderline comedic level fanatic, while Chani, the Northerner, is a more cynically discerning “class conscious” type…yet the real dynamic it succeeds in portraying is to establish the Southern party as an always reliable source of trustworthy strength and support while the Northern side remains a perpetually ungrateful, fickle, feminine dominated party, constantly poo pooing things just to poo poo them. Gee…I wonder if that’s pointing to a truth there? Honestly, it’s kind of wild, almost.🤔😂

[@StickNik]

At the end of the day all the Fremen but her begin to believe in Paul, like Chani's friend from early on.

[@ano_nym]

Now, I'm not one shy to interpretations, but I think you have gone a bit too deep here mate. XD

[@jamespadgett8660]

That thumbnail was hilarious.

[@keegobricks9734]

It's arguable that the lack of explanation for the spice is because Dune is a relatively well known property. I haven't watched it, if they're taking time to explain everything in painstaking detail and miss out that, then I agree, but if it's meant to expect you to know a bit about the Dune lore, I think it can be given a bit of slack for that. lol ditching the mixed chick to get with the aryan princess is pretty based.

[@HappyMOGS]

I think it's hilarious I made the same points Dave is and got excoriated for it by the members of a certain cope-heavy FB writing group with a martial-arts referencing name :)

[@elskeletor3566]

I can agree with you on this. The spice is never mentioned and neither is the Space Guild.

[@niccageathon3535]

I deeply appreciate you reviewing things as you see them rather than when they come out.

[@niccageathon3535]

it makes what you say seem more focused and less band campy

[@scrooge-mcduck]

Finally, someone said it as it is.

[@a.maximillianjean-pierre5838]

FINALLY! Someone tells the truth!

[@jonathansmith4947]

Your substack article was pretty based.

[@jimjam51075]

This is why I avoid any new shows or movies until they are completed to sone point. The female costar belittles and nags the (barely) male one? Six hours saved. Thank you.

[@jero37]

One thing I found annoying was when I watched other people who haven't read Dune discussing the movie think the Harkonnen soldiers at the start of part 2 are wearing armor, when what they're wearing is Harkonnen manufacture STILL SUITS! Hell it's a halfway major aspect of the book discussing people making them besides the Fremen, but the Fremen's Still Suits are the best. Just a minor irritation because you would have to have some sort of scene where you'd have a sniveling Quisling type character who would have to be in both parts discussing selling his good enough still suits to perhaps outfit the Atreides in part one, and then he just has a deal with the Harkonnens where he's actually selling them the best he can make or something.

[@offthedeepend3996]

One of the only things Hollywood seems to care about now as far as casting, is whether or not an actor and actress is popular or attractive enough to draw in crowds.

[@Eldritchfan]

A new Starship Troopers for a new generation.

[@gabrielgalban]

This dune saga is made for the general public to make it successful. In my opinion, as general movie is fine but as Dune movie is trash

[@jonathanwyse5271]

To be fair, the exposition of the spice and the reason people wanted it was given in part 1. Once. Almost in passing. Almost background audio as a transition to the next scene. For something as integral to the plot as spice is for Dune, it deserved a whole lot more exposition. I thought Paul's casting was a little better especially early in part 1. We meet Paul as a young man easing out of the "its too early for this crap" phase of life and entering into a more adult phase of his life which I think Chalamet did well. However, as the story unfolds, I don't think Chalamet had the skill to pull off the growth of Paul. Channi in part 2 was an absolute dumpster fire. Zendaya wasn't a horrible choice, but the character isn't even remotely the same as in the book other than the name so it is kinda hard to say one way or another. I thought Bardem's Stilgar was well performed and certainly had the gravitas necessary in part 1 which helped his performance in part 2. Skarsgaard was quite well cast as the Barron and he definitely brought some significant aspects of the character to life (excluding the one part they couldn't bring to the screen). Bautista made a decent Beast Rabban. Honestly I didn't care much at all for the casting of Feyd because in the film it just felt like the character was there for no reason. The Baron's plan for Arakis was never really exposited because the Fremen rebellion on Arakis was only a few months so we didn't even need Feyd. Bautista certainly has the physical skill to pull off a fight sequence with Chalamet. The plot in part 2 was neigh on to nonsensical. Paul's mother barely even shows up as pregnant meaning part 2 only took place over a few months. A few months of using guerrilla tactics to bring planet wide spice production to a standstill necessary to command the personal attention of the Emperor of the known universe? A few months for Paul and Chani to fall in love (and no, hooking up isn't the same as falling in love). A few months for Paul to not just become a member of the Fremen community but a leader of all Fremen (a somewhat xenophobic community to begin with). Again, why is Feyd in this film? The ending, apart from the duel, was complete garbage. We get snippets of the motivation behind the Bene Gesserit, but Irulan was over developed for a near nothing of a character in the books (she is a means to the Emperor's throne only, and I suppose Paul's personal historian). After watching part 1, I genuinely thought maybe we would end up with a better adaptation than the Lynch version. After watching part 2, I'm wondering why Villneuve bothered in the first place. My wife asked if reading the book would have helped and I said no, it would have made it worse. Part 2 is no love letter to the fans nor is it any kind of faithful adaptation that respects the source material. Granted, the book is incredibly dense for source material. The original writing is from a time when we had far better writers than we do today (this channel's host notwithstanding) and after part 2, I'm convinced there just aren't any writers in Hollywood who have the skill necessary to adapt books like this to film. Part 2 is to Frank Herbert's original story what the Paul Verhoeven Starship Troopers is to Heinlein's story. Yes Lynch did it better in the 80s.

[@DVSPress]

I think part of it is a skill issue regarding adaptation, but the greater part is will. I think Villenueve didn't want to do a straight adaptation. It was an act of will - not that he hates the source material per se, but he cares about his own messaging much more.

[@DVSPress]

I also think Dune is probably unadaptable in general. Even with a good adaptation, the book is best. It was made for the long story medium, and we should be happy with its qualities there, and that includes the sequels.

[@dupplinmuir113]

I entirely agree about Timothée Chalamet; I have no idea why they keep casting him in roles which demand an actor who is physically imposing with a lot of charisma. Having him as Henry V was ludicrous; despite his youth Henry was a grizzled veteran bearing the scars of battle - not someone who looks like a trainee hairdresser.

[@DVSPress]

Can't wait to see him as Richard the Lionheart or William Wallace.

[@NBD-vf3gy]

It was boring and did not do world building properly like how desert bedoins have all that technologie??? All you see is them sleeping in tents and caves with nothing. What food do they eat? and how do they produce it? 2 Millions of people is a LOT and they would consume a ton of food each days, just look how much is needed to maintain a 5000 crew air carrier.

[@arthurschopenhauer8292]

Thanks, sir. Very enjoyable video, and you nailed it. I think Chani character is the worst for me. A complete betrayal of Frank Herbert's novel.

[@PsychoticSmith]

lol your video thumbnail is perfect.

[@driftless7134]

I really don't understand how they are going to adapt Messiah given all of the flaws and changes to the story in part one and two. It seems that Messiah is set up to be a poor movie.

[@DVSPress]

It was the shortest book so.... I don't know, maybe they backfill a lot? Or maybe it becomes fan fiction.

[@driftless7134]

@@DVSPress Or they could blend in elements from future books like Children of Dune, etc?

[@setsen337]

I feel like I enjoyed both movies at the time...but thinking back, i honestly couldn't tell you shit about either one now, absolutely nothing stuck with me. Theyre pretty movies, but in retrospect, incredibly bland and forgettable.

[@KusanajiKei]

"I am done with the farts" might be my overall opinion on hollywood for the last 10 years. Since everyone liked these movies, for a minute i thought i was taking crazy pills.

[@grumblekin]

Villeneuve filmed the outdoor Giedi Prime scenes with IR-sensitive cameras to give that look. He is an excellent visual storyteller. The casting was atrocious.. And the dialogue stilted.

[@saturn580]

I took a hard pass on Dune the moment they announced they would be race and gender bending several established characters to fill diversity quotas. I also refuse to watch any films that feature sullen, effeminate male protagonists or butch, disagreeable female protagonists. A simple rule that saves me a lot of time, money and disappointment.

[@camaradiop3731]

All they are doing is making it "normal" for men to be feminized and emasculated and women to be de-feminized and masculinized--sexual confusion at its "finest". Young people are LOST; they believe that it's OK.

[@miker953]

Just save yourself time and only post, "I'll never leave my bubble. "

[@saturn580]

@@miker953 I've got decades of great movies featuring heroic men and beautiful women to watch. Enjoy your endless clown parade of insufferable girl bosses and sissified beta males, because that's totally not a bubble.

[@Egiovanni2003]

Let me guess you're sad because the fremen who are heavily based on middle easterns aren't white 😢😢

[@saturn580]

@@Egiovanni2003 Let me guess, you accuse others of bigotry because you're too stupid to form counter-arguments?

[@hotpopcorncake]

What ever happened the modulator? They just made them into ninjas

[@tristan-tiln7598]

I have been thinking this since the release of the first one. I really like the Camerawork, but the rest was uninteressting. Without former knowledge, i would not get the story and the characters.

[@hotpopcorncake]

Omg i though i was alone on this, I was attacked on discord servers and comments section from people making reviews of Dune before. I said hell na This Dune composer music doesn't have a memorable song in it. it sounded bland and actors I just didn't like them.

[@immortaljanus]

I can understand why they didn't want to put too much exposition in the first two films because it would confuse people too much. They reduced it into a relatively simple conflict between warring houses. In the next film, there will be a response to Paul getting control of the spice. The Spacing Guild will be a member of the anti-Paul coalition in the upcoming film.

[@InfamyOrDeath-__-]

Never seen either of these movies or read any of the books, I did see maybe 5 minutes of the original movie, that’s about it. And it’s strange that I didn’t watch that original, because it’s exactly the type of genre I like.

[@theSlimJim]

It's been a few years since the last time I read Dune, but if I remember correctly, Paul and Jessica were initially cynical about the Fremen religion, but as the story progressed Paul came to believe that he was the promised messiah. It's been a while, though.

[@ianeichenlaub5084]

It's Dune, minus all the good characters and parts. Forgettible

[@StickNik]

To be honest I love these films and much more so for their filmic elements that communicate enough to me for me not to be confused by the rich lore missing. In interviews, Denis very much explained his rewrites in Part 2 are to closer align to Frank Herbert's intent with the story and his attempts to fix the perceptions of Paul being a clearcut hero in the book. Even given that, I side with Paul a lot, and understand why he made Chani conflicted over him versus his prophecy, making her more capable of being an audience surrogate to try see Paul from the outside more as the film wraps up and he starts Jihad. This is me having not read the books, but done some research after the fact. Watching interviews with Frank and Denis, and I loved Alia being involved as a super-conscious fetus (that seems accidentally pro-life), inferring her curiosity and involvement through Rebecca Ferguson which I have a lot of praise for as an actress. Paul wanting revenge for his father and his fear of losing Chani in the vision is enough in this for me on this shorter timescale without him losing his child, and I appreciate him killing the Baron in revenge more than I can imagine Alia doing so however that was constructed in the book. I still feel conflicted at the end of this and want to see the consequences of his actions here. After Part 2 I'm much more willing to defend Timothee Chalament, he transitioned well from a boy into the leader. I think the scene he speaks in front of the elders and room filled with Fremen really is charismatic and sells his development to me. We'll see when I read the books how I find it all in hindsight. I am still apprehensive of how they are using Chani, but awaiting how that will pan out in the sequel.