DC20: Time to Ditch D&D?

[@TheDungeonCoach]

Wow! My game has never been called "Sexy" before! Thank you for that

[@wizardsling]

Thanks for stopping by! I would say good luck with the kickstarter but you clearly don't need it :)

[@BMHume]

Damn, every time I tell my wife that "this is the last thing I'll back for a while, I think I have enough books", something new comes along that seems fun and interesting 😄

[@nrais76]

For me its selling off the old collection to get something new, getting it and being disappointed, selling that, and then regretting selling the old thing and USUALLY but not always resisting the temptation to buy it back at a ridiculous markup and then being reminded why it sat unplayed the last couple decades and wondering when I can sell it again. I kind of wish 5e didn't have the problems I think it has, or that I knew a fix for them, and then I could be happier not spending near as much.

[@PHJcz_84]

Awesome. 👋🏻🙂 Thank you for sharing. Looking forward to more videos about DC20.

[@roninanwar]

Thanks for posting this. I'm planning on taking parts of this and putting it into my 5e game. I don't want to have to get my players to learn a new system.

[@galaxyfoxnightsky2042]

I hope your players like the rules you implement i like dc20 but the best game is the game at your table that is perfect for you and your players❤

[@franciscofernandez8183]

Gradually introducing mechanics each session sounds like a good way to go. Big subsystems like the weapon traits sounds like you should gauge your player's interest

[@mattural20]

I absolutely agree with @galaxyfoxnightsky2042! I have found that if you’re excited about something new, your players will jump on board. That being said, have you heard about @nimbleCo? It takes elements of other systems (even DC20) and just focuses on trying to make 5e combat a little more streamlined. The earlier version of Nimble didn’t click with my players at the time but the GM rules definitely changed how I run things “behind the screen”. I’m keeping my eye on it!

[@roninanwar]

@@franciscofernandez8183 100% agree.

[@subterranean327]

As for the "slower initiative" problem, yes and no. Having to select individual initiative bonuses for each player is slower, but what makes up for it is that you don't have to roll initiative for the enemies or organize the order at the start of combat. You can just jot down player rolls and create the combat order as you go. This speeds initiative WAY up, especially from the player's perspective during in-person sessions.

[@wizardsling]

ahh fair enough

[@schemage2210]

Would it surprise you to learn that there is a variant rule in the D&D 5e DMG that does exactly this. PF2e does the same too. The real problem is, 9 times out of 10 people default to d20 + DEX because Deception or Intimidation or, what have you, just don't apply. More to the point, if a player can pick their "prime ability modifier", and can choose which stat they wish to roll initiative with, you start running into problems where stats just don't matter. AKA there is no trade off/consequences for bad stats. Did you choose to dump intelligence? Well that means your likely to hit things hard in combat but suck at skill rolls. Did you dump Strength because your a wizard? Well that means you can't carry much and can't do much with a sword but your arcane spells will reshape reality. No one gets to do it all. At least in properly designed games.

[@subterranean327]

@@schemage2210 I don't know how much you've looked into DC20, but stats definitely still matter. For instance, you don't have to go in Strength to swing a sword, but big heavy greatswords have a Strength requirement. So no, you can't be a weakling that can magically swing massive weapons around. Getting kind of tired of people hearing about the Prime Modifier for the first time and automatically assuming it destroys the entire system. I've read it AND tested it multiple times; It's a good system (although incomplete). You don't have to like it, but the hype is not undeserved.

[@xaxania]

My 5e group has started using DC20 initiative rules and we find it to be great. My DM is super happy as he now has more autonomy in setting up the encounter. He tends to be a low roller and is last in the order A LOT which has led to lack luster battles. It's a team effort to keep it rolling...we as players to be on top of our skills and engaged to know immediately what to roll with for initiative. The DM decides the DC of the encounter beforehand - not in the moment - and already has a good idea as to how tobplace the enemies to best engage with the players. As a DM I'd rather spend a few minutes setting up a memorable encounter than have a 1 min initiative round and roll poorly. Faster isn't always better IMHO

[@schemage2210]

@@subterranean327 So your literally proving my point. A Wizard with Str as their Prime Modifier can be swinging around that heavy Greatsword and what downside do they face? Is their magic weaker? Well if it were, kinda defeats the purpose of have a "prime stat". But your the expert, how do stats still matter in the very specific example I have given? What does the wizard loose out on by having a jacked up strength modifier allowing them to run around with strength-gated weapons and armor, while having a low intelligence?

[@GutisFive]

Great breakdown. Subbed and hoping you keep covering the evolution of DC20!

[@mykediemart]

Has some good ideas, like using actions for reactions and such, ancestry stuff is interesting as well. Its not finished or really fleshed out, I'm not backing a game that is still in playtest or the idea phase. I do look forward to seeing a finished product

[@GlenFinney]

That’s fair. It’s definitely in playtest level currently but that playtest has been truly grand! I think for those who can and are interested in supporting the development and completion of DC20 through the kickstarter it’s a great thing. But nothing wrong with waiting until it’s finished for those who can’t or prefer to see what the end game looks like. There is a lot of stuff out there, can’t support it all. Having said that I’ve personally gotten a lot out of supporting the alpha and feel I’ll get even more supporting the beta through the kickstarter. And I love been able to give feedback while the game is in development!

[@VanBurenPhilips]

Can't wait to try it out. I can see this replacing 5e for us.

[@artistpoet5253]

I like what I hear but I also know that this game is still in open beta. I'm going to wait for the final product. Nice review. You're awesome!

[@donatodiniccolodibettobardi842]

before watching the video: It's turning fifty this year, right? If not the unhinged corporate greed, it could've been the year of celebration of the hobby in general and D&D in particular. Despite its many flaws it was always a beacon. Instead, we talk about ditching it, about everything D&D does to hold thw roleplaying games and our hobby back. Not that there aren't many other lovely and creative RPGs out there that deserve attention and recognition, for their innovations and tight design. It would still be nice to have a flagship of some kind or a constellation to making finding players and DMs easier. These kinds of games may be universally beloved and hated simultaneously, but it can be a fallback, an easy and accessible compromise. The only thing I wish is that people were more cognizant of is when they or their group actually have grown past something generalized or ill-fitting to their needs and interests and more accepting that there always needs to be some amount of compromise or splitting the group might be necessary. Otherwise we can get insane ill-fitting homerules, heartbreakers and constant arguing over the "best system", approach to gaming, balance, challenge, mutual distrust and disrespect... I dunno. Be flexible and open-minded, if you can.

[@LuizCesarFariaLC]

Alan was on a live stream on Luke's channel and he admitted he was inspired by DM Lair back and forth initiative. I've also been using it for years (since I've seen that same video) and I love it.

[@martinbowyer7906]

So I can see how some may see the playtest packet layout as you say, I think it mainly due to no art being in the playtest pdf. I personally appreciate all the sidebars for clarify and examples. This should improve a lot with the final release when they add the art into the book. You can see this on the Kickstarter with a few of the book sneak-peek pages, it really cleans up the look and spacing. As for Deaths Door - there is kind of a death spiral sense its a DC10 flat d20 - exhaustion level. So you have to roll an 11 on your first time down, then 12, 13, and 14..... yeah healing is super important in DC20 lol.

[@riccardoguidolin6085]

Wow, really nice vid, i really liked your pov and way of expressing it. Neutral, honest, and focused on the design aspect of the game, not politics or marketing.

[@fanboykc9140]

Don't ditch D&D! Especially old editions, but definitely try DC20!

[@sidequest2230]

One the more legit concerns I've seen is how the other stuff it adds may create new bloat, or that some are worried enemies also having many actions and uses for actions might make hard to run Im optimistic for the system but it is things worth pointing out

[@GlenFinney]

I think any leveled TTRPG there’s a risk of bloat as you level up so they need to keep a close eye on that. I’ve been playing and GMing DC20 regularly about 6 months since the 0.4 Alpha and I can say with confidence running monsters is no more difficult than in 5e and it’s often more fun doing so!

[@Jason-96]

Thanks for the discussion. I look forwards to seeing more DC content from you...

[@Ramschat]

Finally a review without affiliate link! Call me paranoid, but I never quite trust a review from someone who has a financial incentive

[@argentumtaibhsear621]

It looks and sounds awesome. I'd love to steal some of the ideas but I don't think I can work them in 3e very well. I have way too much invested in 3e to scrap it all and start a new game system but I would love to play in the game if someone else was running it.

[@tithannisk7470]

@7:51 I've been following the development of DC20 for months now, but I confess that I stopped watching his Q&A videos for this specific reason : too much excitement that leads to tangents and thanking the chat for gifted subs and super-chats and saluting everybody personally that enters the chat and that he recognizes... His enthusiasm is endearing, but in 1 hour of Q&A you get at best 10 minutes of actual information.

[@paulsavas2394]

“Camp counselor cocaine” energy. Matches in the layout of the play test rules…I imagine. Yeah…if I ever don’t buy a system based on vibe….it’d be this one.

[@GlenFinney]

I’d say at most a minute of welcoming people when he starts the live stream. I appreciate a Q&A interactive format, otherwise could just drop update videos prerecorded. I’ve yet to see a KZbinr live chatting who doesn’t acknowledge gifted subs and superchats. And I’ve been pleased how much he does share during these and will have mods pause the Q&A to make sure announcements get done. He also polls the audience regarding naming and design decisions that he and the dev team would like more feedback on. And he often goes into overtime to answer more questions for people. They’ve been great for me (as have the giveaways!), but if that’s not your thing no worries.

[@GlenFinney]

@@paulsavas2394 he definitely is passionate and energetic especially around DC20. And DC20 in playtesting is energetic as well. If that’s not the feeling of a TTRPG that you’d enjoy no worries, we’re fortunate there’s so many out there to choose from. You might want to look at the free playtest version to see if there’s ideas you can use at your table.

[@nevisysbryd7450]

Personally, I find the whole orc real-world analogue debate tiring in that both camps default to misunderstanding or strawmanning the others' argument.

[@nevisysbryd7450]

This is the first I have heard about the crits on initiative rule. Very interesting proposition.

[@waylonoconner9121]

I don't like the race/class loosey goosey rules trending in TTRPGs. In my experience restrictions, 9 times out of 10, brings the best role play moments

[@GlenFinney]

Restrictions do inspire creativity and options support creativity. The simple points system in DC20 is a good balance of the two.

[@waylonoconner9121]

@@GlenFinney I built a system for my game (crosses bits of Daggerheart, with Vampire The Masquerade, a dash of Shadowrun, and a twist of a basic d20 for taste) and in it you are limited in your race selection but every character has a bloodline, or lineage. So with your race and bloodline choices you can choose from 1 of 4 separate abilities which allow you to flavor your character as you want and your abilities can grow as you do or later you can mix in another option from your race or bloodline (like a Dragonblooded character could take a breath weapon at first then later add a touch of Dragon Fear). Its a flexible and fast system (Id say we are in a late beta stage of play testing)

[@GlenFinney]

@@waylonoconner9121 I like the mash up! Sounds like an interesting approach to race/lineage!

[@grr-OUCH]

I am not thrilled about the Initiative determination, it seems to complicated. Maybe it is faster in play. The rest of the system is cool. I will probably do initiative like Savage Worlds does, which is fun and fast.

[@GlenFinney]

The initiative system is flavorful but no faster than 5e which I find slower than I like. There’s some ideas about improving that. Savage Worlds does have a nice initiative approach as does the Alien RPG, but honestly I’ve seen so many takes on initiative that I think it may be more player and gm dependent than something a game can get “right”. Probably good to have at least two initiative options provided in games, a fast no frills one and a slower more impactful one.🤔

[@zellak-pr7pu]

Nope....having a blast with ShadowDark thanks.

[@allenyates3469]

DC 20 isn't my thing at all but I'd really love to see people shift over to this system rather than 5.5. This is clearly a perfected form of 5e. 5.5 is a mess lol

[@BIGBENMACDOUCE]

Hope you make more content on DC20. It was a good video. I don’t feel like DC20 is really that more crunchy than 5e. Its crunchy if you want it to be and tou can always keep it simple just like playing 5e. I wouldn’t be shy to make a new player try DC20 instead of dnd

[@iandimitri0044]

Great Comments.

[@wbbartlett]

Using charisma to swing a sword? I'll try lifting things at work with my winning smile and see how long it takes to get fired.

[@GlenFinney]

Lifting things is still a might athletics check!😂

[@galaxyfoxnightsky2042]

Never underestamate the power of a smile

[@GlenFinney]

@@galaxyfoxnightsky2042 especially if it’s one of Galaxy Fox’s characters and she’s rolling the dice!

[@GutisFive]

Maybe we could try with magic... word "please" xD

[@duhduhduhDON]

You’re not swinging a sword with your smile. Think of it as how you land the blow. CHA Perhaps banter and showmanship keeps your opponent off guard. INT Landing blows like Sherlock exploiting your opponents weak points or predicting their every move. It’s just flavor for how you are skilled in combat.

[@rohanv18]

DO love DC20 perfect for my table

[@PangoriaFallstar]

I love the faux accusations of knowing other people based on a picture. Reminds me of some stupid drama videos lately.

[@schemage2210]

Its a pretty small group of larger viewership D&D (and adjacent) content creators on youtube. So much so that pretty much all the names worth knowing have been in let's play streams together already. Simply put if you want to argue that there is no connection between the Dungeon Coach and the likes of the DM Liar, your going to have to try a hell of a lot harder.

[@wizardsling]

accusation?

[@PangoriaFallstar]

@@wizardsling its a reference to a video someone else did trying to accuse two youtubers of knowing each other

[@crankysmurf]

I stopped watching Dungeon Coach when I realized that his "amazing" homebrew rules were just rehashes of older edition rules. I called him out on this and he admitted he had never played any other edition of D&D except 5E. Yeah, that said it all for me about him and his target audience.

[@wizardsling]

99% of TTRPG rules are stolen or adapted from other games. It's just how the hobby works

[@crankysmurf]

@@wizardsling But calling it your own when it was clearly taken from past edition while claiming ignorance is no excuse.

[@nevisysbryd7450]

​@@crankysmurf It is likely cultural osmosis or convergent evolution rather than copying per se, then. He can hardly have knowingly copied a source he was unaware of. While I agree that few of his contributions are innovations to ttrpg game design, I suggest you may be reading a bit too much bad faith here. Being poorly researched is not the same as plagiarism.

[@schemage2210]

​@@wizardsling ​ Too a point. That is why we have the D&D SRD and OGL. That is why we have Forged in the Dark and PbtA games. But the proper thing to do is acknowledge your souces. Acknowledge the fact that you have taken material from other games which has influenced your design, or the location of which you have directly lifted content. That is the fair thing to do instead of saying, "well you can't sue me, and you didn't really invent it anyway".

[@schemage2210]

@nevisysbryd7450 Then I suggest you take a look at the "action point system" that DC20 uses. Lifted directly from PF2e and the odds of him not knowing that is a billion to one. Though if you want to stand in front of an academia board and try to argue that "poorly researched is not the same as plagiarism" you can go right ahead. You certainly won't win that one.

[@wrathisme4693]

*DC 20 infuriates me in a way none of the other post OGL stuff has.* He talks about the little things he has done to make it 'faster' and adds on several extremely fiddly systems in its place. I really don't like it, it feels like this guy has no idea what he's doing, but whatever I guess it's just going to be another influencer cash-in that nobody will remember a year from now.

[@schemage2210]

THANK THE GODS!!! Finally I find someone else that sees sense. Whats worse, all the "things" that DC20 is praised for, are all things that he has lifted directly out of other game systems. Game mechanics can't be copyrighted, fine, and everything he has taken was published under the OGL etc (to my knowledge) but the least he could do is acknowledge that he is in no way an actual game designer and is benefiting from the years of work that Piazo put into PF2e, the decades of D&D development not to mention all the other indie devs that created other games he is stealing from. Any way, he isn't a game designer. That's just a fact. There is a reason why all those little things were in those games he stole from but he isn't realising it yet. For example, if I can have a wizard have it's prime ability modifier be Intelligence, why would you ever see fighters when strength based wizards can sling spells, attack with expert proficiency with a sword and use armor that might be gated behind a strength requirement???

[@GutisFive]

​@@schemage2210 totally, he is the first to admit that he is a former math teacher. I agree that stealing other's work is bad, but anyone could try to build over that what's created if the proper recognition is shown, especially in ttrpgs and Paizo themselves being the poster child of that lol. If it wasn't a rethoric question, martials have maneuvers that casters don't have. Only base attacks are the same between them. But if you don't like the system that's perfectly okay too.

[@schemage2210]

And does the fact that character options don't extend past 1st level content??? As in, who knows what you're really buying and if the system is going to be as viable as it is described here? And for that fact, has anyone seen monster stat blocks for this game yet? Come on, you claim this wasn't a paid promotion, but there are glaring issues, right in front of people's noses and it's going unreported. And you know what, this video is virtually identical to every other DC20 video I've seen. But hey, DC20 is the latest buzzword which means its a great chance to grow your audience. And if you're lucky and you say nice things, maybe there will be one of those youtuber collabs in your future with the Dungeon Coach.

[@wizardsling]

I feel like my review was pretty fair; there were some things I liked, some things I didn't. But you can feel free to call me a shill because I wasn't as critical as you would've been.

[@schemage2210]

@@wizardsling Well, if you think you're being a "fair" critic, answer my questions here. Are you concerned that character options don't extend past 1st level characters and there is no "monster manual" available for testing PRIOR to the conclusion of the kickstarter??? And if you are concerned about such, how do you justify promoting this product in such a positively glowing fashion? Because you were positively gushing over DC20. For every "complaint" you had, you followed up with 4 times as much "nice" things to complement the system.

[@wizardsling]

@@schemage2210 if it bothers you this much, perhaps you should make your own video on the topic

[@schemage2210]

@@wizardsling thank you for labeling yourself as a shill.

[@GutisFive]

​@@schemage2210 the alpha goes up to level 2 and came with a mini adventure to try builds. Other than that there's a good starting monster repository posted in their discord and, most importantly, the game is in development so new things are coming up all the time. But if you dislike it so much you can ignore all of this and stick with the systems you do like. It doesn't affect you in any way.