DCS: The F-Pole Maneuver and its Advantages

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Just a small video describing the F-pole maneuver with semi active radar missiles and active radar. and discussing the advantages it can give you in a fight.

[@GrowlingSidewinder]

link to F-pole Maneuver part 2. what to do against multiple targets: kzbin.info/www/bejne/rpSxkquhaa2sm9k

[@mro9466]

Thanks !

[@doug7313]

You ROCK!!!

[@xmlthegreat]

This video has changed my view of modern air combat. I don't play DCS, and this was a random recommendation. But thank you for this.

[@GrowlingSidewinder]

Akshay Anand ur very welcome glad u enjoyed especially being a non DCS guy.

[@Mandrak789]

Same as the guy above, I am also interested in modern air combat but doesn't have time (and patience) to commit to simulations. Your videos are treasure for me.

[@GrowlingSidewinder]

awesome feedback to hear. thanks fellas

[@bensevrywere]

i felt like topgun watching this

[@sebaleal3081]

It happens to me as the comrades above, I find it very interesting and fascinating modern air combat, I hope some day to get into this game

[@GrowlingSidewinder]

One minor and common sense thing I forgot to mention in the video. The success of the F-Pole manoeuvre is also dependent on distance from target. Don't preform the F-Pole if ur 10miles away you will die. I would recommend no less than 20-25miles for highest success rates.

[@ВасяПупкин-п5е7г]

Soon this will be not working, because proportional navigation will be implemented to AA missiles.

[@vnyggi621]

@@taylorc2542 I think the missile wont do the sharp turn at the beginning but go straigt towards the target at first, and then pull lead later

[@youmasenchi]

Hi, a question: The reason why 45 degrees? Is it because it's the best angle to turn and not lose lock "normally" and you able to do high turns without bleeding too much energy? Or is there another reason? Anyhow great vid and great tactic!

[@moshoyoko2480]

@@youmasenchi prob those reasons you mentioned

[@murilomurakame]

Very good video @Growling , its content is more and more fantastic. High theoretical level and very well edited to illustrate the situation. Congratulations. Waiting for the next releases. How about a series about type of flight training and combat! Thank you.

[@ThroteCHOP]

You should see the same results vs AR(Active Radar) missiles as you have kinematically defeated the missile. It's nice to see someone taking a more scientific approach to AW in DCS.

[@GrowlingSidewinder]

well thank you I appreciate that.

[@Telsion]

I got this as a random recommendation. I dont play DCS, but I am a plane (mostly WW2 era) fanatic. This video has finally shown me the light of what really goes on with modern day missile tactics

[@GrowlingSidewinder]

Telsion glad I could be of some assistance

[@mrc2662]

I cannot get enough of these videos....and I don’t even have a PC, never mind DCS (though I hope to soon change that). Lucid explanation, great insight, real humility yet clear talent....a winning combination.

[@GrowlingSidewinder]

Craig S thanks a lot Craig I appreciate that very much. Hope to see u in the skies when u get that PC situation figured out.

[@MtnCommando]

you don't have a PC? did you type this comment on a potato? or an apple (mac)?

[@mrc2662]

MtnCommando Well done you. An iPad. Thanks for asking.

[@NefariousKoel]

You absolutely do see the same results against ARHs. IMO, this method is the best way to engage head-on BVR opponents when you're only carrying SARH missiles. i.e. in Flankers, Mirages, etc. Learn it well in those types! I would only warn that you'll likely have to continue doing this against more than one missile when doing PvP online. It will get pretty hairy once you've burned the energy off the first incoming missile but have another one coming, and there's always more coming. When it gets closer in such follow up shots, I've had a bit more luck adding some vertical nose oscillation in the back & forth snaking maneuvers which you'll keep doing if you want to continue guiding your own missile. Then, when the latest enemy missile still has enough energy to reach you, but has burned off a bit due to your snaking, you will want to begin generous barrel rolling (using both stick and rudder to make a wide circle) around that missile's approach vector as the last-ditch effort to lower it's hit probability. At that point, it's not a guarantee but that last barrel rolling against the close-up threat missile is far more effective at avoiding them than a simple zig-zag.

[@ENn0ble]

This explained the maneuver better than my Air Force tech school did! You should definitely make more videos on air to air combat maneuvers, as well as SAM and AAA defensive maneuvers.

[@GrowlingSidewinder]

thank you glad u enjoyed it.

[@jamsheeddevotee7588]

No idea of how i got here. Zero regrets. That shit was suave, my guy.

[@GrowlingSidewinder]

thanks man I appreciate that

[@MeMaex]

I have done this maneuver by Instinct in the past (just with a highter Angel), but it doesnt work out so well, if your opponent shoots a second Missile in your first turn I think its all about the right Timing I m glad that I discovered your Channel. Hopefully your Videos can help me to inprove :)

[@GrowlingSidewinder]

thank you and welcome to the channel

[@frostkillht]

wtf i love modern military aviation now

[@HappyFlapps]

WOW - This is an amazing vid teaching an amazing active missile defeat and kill strat. Thanks for the lesson!

[@GrowlingSidewinder]

glad u enjoyed it. thanks for the comment.

[@Planehazza]

It's not active though. It's the equivalent to a sparrow, meaning the SU27 in this video has retain a lock on the author's F-18. Having AIM120s against R27R is a huge advantage.

[@HappyFlapps]

Thanks for the info - I'm still a n00b at this stuff.

[@woody40000]

Don't play simulators, not sure how I got here but awesome video, great analysis and really interesting!

[@GrowlingSidewinder]

Andrew Wootton thank you I'm glad you enjoyed it

[@robertchevli1302]

Hey Growling Sidewinder, loving the videos BTW. I gotta correct you though, the manoeuvre (more correctly an A-Pole for an active missile), is specifically designed to maintain range from the leading edge of enemy fighters, and not to run the red missiles out of energy. To that end it's normally flown as a 60 degree (minimum) heading change because closure velocity varies with the cosine of the angle. You can see that in the event that not all the enemy are killed, you are certainly within their missile engagement ranges. Happy to discuss if you need more detail.

[@tyapka]

Well, I'll tell you what I think - this kind of explanation means an instant subscribe with anticipation of many more interesting vids!

[@GrowlingSidewinder]

thank you and welcome aboard.

[@MikoMuru]

Hey look at that guys. They even teach you how to dogfight and evade missiles on KZbin. What a useful skill :3.

[@Rael14]

This isn't Dogfight

[@firepower7017]

GungHo Ugh anime. Dogfighting today isn't like that of the past. I mean I don't blame you as anime portray the F-4 Phantom as a fighter even though it is a Interceptor same goes for the MIG-23

[@darroncarter]

lol

[@denisbujoreanu5993]

hm...don't think GS's attempts are worthy of a cynical remark. if you don't agree or think this is a waste of time well, nobody's forcing you to watch... you think you can do better then by all means. prove everyone wrong and show the world how is done. sure, this ain't real ACM, not many live to tell how it's done. most are not allowed to...cuz ya'know, it's a military secret not to tell the world how you intend to shoot them down ...might be useful when you actually try to shoot down somebody.... but DCS and Eagle Dynamics bring ACM close to the masses. otherwise what would be the point of having an air force? maybe having this sort of activities will eliminate the need for people actually going up there to kill one another. I'd say better to spill beer than blood

[@chrisdelzell8467]

@@denisbujoreanu5993 I think he's referring to the fact that this was a meeting engagement. There are still proper, almost traditional dogfights in real life. Heck this guy probably has a video on some tactics for them. If both pilots are good quality, especially in DCS where some of the more vicious modern AA trackers aren't simulated, pilots are braver, and the battle is more hectic, you have a decent chance of evading the initial volley reaching under 5 nm before either party can get off a killing shot. Then the name of the game is old school turn fighting, tracking the other guy visually, and trying to get behind and above him to attack with guns or SRAAM.

[@zackbenson7658]

Hi GS, I love your series of tutorials on tactical maneuvers in the FA-18. Keep up the good work :)

[@GrowlingSidewinder]

thanks zack, I appreciate the support brother. U been with the channel from the start. Thanks for sticking with me.

[@zackbenson7658]

My pleasure ... I enjoy your channel and look for your new vids. I have somewhat limited time to fly and learn so you are helping me become a better player.

[@CoralPolyps]

Even though I don't play DCS or any air combat sims, I'd like to think this will come in handy in the future :^D

[@GrowlingSidewinder]

if WW3 breaks out and they draft u for the air force you'll all set...

[@ConnollyUK]

It was while watching your videos that I finally understood the whole "Wow, you can literally learn how to do anything on KZbin."

[@GrowlingSidewinder]

Connolly UK lol ya u really can learn anything on here. Thanks for dropping by and watching

[@ConnollyUK]

@@GrowlingSidewinder No worries! Thanks for the content. I don't play DCS myself but I love learning about BFM and watching the tac-view dogfights! I don't think they'll be useful to me in Elite Dangerous but still good entertainment!

[@WaffleShortage]

best DCS air combat tactics channel that i've found. thanks!

[@asiftalpur3758]

The evolution of this channel is insane.

[@GrowlingSidewinder]

lol ya we have come a long way its crazy when you look back

[@asiftalpur3758]

@@GrowlingSidewinder just the intros man, they're an absolute joy to watch. You're elevating a genre, I hope you're aware of that. :)

[@GrowlingSidewinder]

@@asiftalpur3758 thanks dude, I try. wouldnt be possible without guys like you supporting so thank you I appreciate it.

[@jameshoiby]

Fantastically presented video. Thank you!

[@HisMajestyWalrus]

I played flight sims a lot as a kid, but my poor child economy left me unable to keep up with the tech advances and it's been dormant for a decade. Having stumbled across your videos I think you've rekindled my love for flight sims and I am currently looking at joystick, thrusters and pedals to invest in, and I must say DCS looks really great.

[@GrowlingSidewinder]

Sir Walrus glad ur interested man. The more pilots we can get the better.

[@caseyclark515]

The most expensive part of getting into it is the PC itself. You can pick up a hotas (hands on throttle and stick) for under $100. I'd also look into Track iR, I don't think I could fly without that after experiencing it. Hope to see you flying soon! www.amazon.com/Thrustmaster-T-Flight-Hotas-Flight-playstation-4/dp/B015PJ68BK/ref=sr_1_1?s=videogames&rps=1&ie=UTF8&qid=1537043480&sr=1-1&keywords=hotas&refinements=p_85%3A2470955011

[@HisMajestyWalrus]

Casey Clark Already have TrackIR and Vive :) Think I'll go big and get the Warthog Hotas and some basic pedals, hahah.

[@mckayleabrahams4961]

You should do more maneuver videos and incorporate little notes like which plane does what best. Very interesting video! 1 like from me.

[@machinech183]

Excellent example and tactical breakdown... the only pointer would be to maybe not repeat yourself so frequently after stating a clearly diagramed and explained point. Well done and many thanks for the scenario.

[@Ferocious_Imbecile]

Love these videos with their analysis. Excellent.

[@LightBeforeDark1]

Thanks for teaching me Maneuvers and tactics now which i fully implement on my flights

[@Fashizle]

Bro keep making more vids. This was well made, amazing detail and explanation and overall sick. Keep up the good work!

[@GrowlingSidewinder]

thanks man I really appreciate that, I'm glad you liked it.

[@koakt3357]

Thank you for content GS, Im not a DCS simmer but I would like to(at least for now I cant). I play WT and all your content is helping me a lot. Thank you again, your new fan.

[@ScoutSniper3124]

I can't help but notice he's matching your speed at 1.1 mach. Except for the inherent differences in the A/C radars and missile targeting, he "LOOKED" like he was trying pretty much the same tactics with you... and if that's the case it boils down to a game of Chicken where whomever shoots first is likely to lose, Chicken at a 2.2 mach closer rate... NICE!

[@chrisdelzell8467]

The player's maneuver was much more clean, purposeful, and carefully timed. DCS AI is strong, but no bot is particularly good at aerial evasion. The AMRAAM is also a much better missile than the R-23, which tends to help a lot. F-15 or F-18 with a decent player can usually down 2-4 of the toughest AI using nominally the same tactics that they do.

[@katumus]

You can down 5-6 hardest AI armed with two AIM-120C each on them when flying with Su-27S and full R-27ER/ET set and two R-73. It is actually very easy and simple to avoid all the AIM-120C when F-15C come in pairs or in threes, and they are limited number of those missiles. That is after all a 1 vs 5-6 situation and you need to balance it by limiting two missiles for each, or otherwise they will come and spam you so you are against 3x F-15C and 6-7 AIM-120C in the air coming at you, and you can avoid 5-6 of those with high probability but the last AIM will very very likely get you as you have shot down first F-15C, put second down but the third F-15C has managed to go little off axis so you have no change to maneuver away Take it 2x Su-27S and you can get those 6x F-15C down without problems when they each have only 2x AIM-120C. It gets more challenging when each has 4x AIM-120C as inevitably either one of you get shot down, but there is higher change that neither one survives. But that is 2 vs 6 situation. The problem really is that R-27 is terribly modeled in DCS, it doesn't have any kind real guidance nor energy even, but similar problems were with the AIM-7 and AIM-120 even.

[@sasquatchycowboy5585]

I use a variation of this to Splash F - 4, and Mig 23s with the Mig 21. Obviously after the second turn I'm a little more Reliant on my counter measures. But typically the pair of our 3s is coming at him will convince the other fighter to turn defensive, or like you said they get there first and kill him before his missile can kill me. Of course I'm dumping chaff and flare at this, and those countermeasures can be pretty effective against older missiles.

[@moshoyoko2480]

Gr8 showcase & explanation of the F-Pole manoeuvre!, plz keep em coming m8! :)

[@GrowlingSidewinder]

Moishy Ok thanks buddy glad u enjoyed it

[@Jimbo-in-Thailand]

+1 Growling Sidewinder - I've watched several of your excellent modern-fighter-jet tactics tutorials and am extremely impressed. Gotta admit I had zero idea how absolutely clueless I am about what it takes to survive, much less score a victory, as a fighter jet jock these days. I still love the guns only Pilot vs Pilot full adrenaline dogfight scenario, but the missiles aspect adds quite another dimension (or twelve) to the fur ball encounter! Your tutorials are the best I've seen. 👍😁👍 Oh yeah, just subscribed. Keep 'em coming young fella. Hopefully this old dog will learn some new tricks! 😲 Cheers from tropical Thailand! 😁

[@GrowlingSidewinder]

hi there, thank you for the kind feedback and welcome to the channel. i'm very happy you enjoyed the videos. comments like this give me the motivation to continue. thanks again for the support.

[@shapiro5000]

Good tutorial! It's definitely efficient at defeating missiles BVR but the big danger is they can fire at the same time you fire your AMRAAM. ET missiles can be tricky that way but Sparrows and R27's may be dead in the water if your AMRAAM hits first. Of course nothing stops you from turuning around 180 and just running away which would delay theirs hitting, drop flares just in case they have an ET on the way.

[@GrowlingSidewinder]

well said jeff

[@dev0random]

Pretty risky move as now you have ET's and an R-73 to worry about bringing you into range where the flanker has a huge advantage. And any good Flanker pilot is going to use the terrain to their advantage as all DCS missiles like to track straight into the ground, even AMRAAMS (I do it all the time). It's easy to guide any missile straight into the ground in DCS. I'm sure they'll eventually fix that in the next 5 to 10 years.

[@dev0random]

No, I'm talking about trying to hit a flanker low on the ground from up high. It never works against me (And I highly doubt it works on expert Flanker pilots either, unless I'm flying over the ocean, but still possible) because DCS missiles act really dumb and it's easy to make them crash into the ground. And anyone with a proper headset setup or VR headset will quickly get an IR lock on anyone approaching the Flanker that close. Yes, it's a bullshit tactic, so is spamming AMRAAMS, so I think it evens out :D

[@ShuRugal]

Another point to mention here is that doing this against the AI is very different than doing it against a human player - the AI will only ever have one missile in the air at a time. As a Su-27 driver on 104th back in the day, most of my kills came on missile #2 or #3 - the first shot was always delivered early to sucker the target in, and to get their RWR screaming so they wouldn't get an alert for launches 2 and 3, which came after the target aspect change back to nose-hot.

[@sfertonoc]

Explains why situational awareness at all times beats everything.

[@michaelchesney1737]

I FINALLY managed to get a PC (I'm a MAC guy) and took it to a friend who redid the insides to run DCS World 2.5 for me. Learning this has been on my bucket list for some time now and I've really appreciated the videos you've created and posted for everyone. I want to personally thank you for giving me something I really enjoy watching!! I'm sure you've been asked this question many times before but I have to ask... How on earth did you learn all this? I was in the USAF during Vietnam and if I had been a pilot, I would have been a happy airman but that never happened due to colorblindness. With DCS World my dream is finally going to come true.... just have to learn a few things!!!!! Thanks again for all you've done!!

[@GrowlingSidewinder]

Hey brother, that's great news I'm sure you're going to love DCS world. Thanks a lot for ur support and I'm very glad you are enjoying the videos. As for where I learned all this stuff, I don't know I think I just picked up a little here and there from reading books and watching documentaries, use to read anything I could get my hands on regarding air combat. And I learned a lot from a lot of guys when I first started DCS. So I'm just trying to share the knowledge for others. Thanks again for the nice comment man. See you in the skies.

[@michaelchesney1737]

@@GrowlingSidewinder LOL, thanks for the reply. I do have an update..... I've learned that you don't just jump in and go for it...I've spent the last month just getting set up. I've bought several aircraft and printed out the manuals....the A10C alone was over three inches thick! Got the Logitech X56 HOTAS, several other peripherals including the TrackIR. Looks like setting up the HOTAS alone will take a bit of time to do it right!!

[@budoka34]

You continue to impress! Keep up the good work.

[@GrowlingSidewinder]

thank you I appreciate that.

[@BlitzboyGaming]

I have been doing this maneuver to evade missiles in F22 Raptor flight simulator, I didn't realize it is called F-Pole Maneuver. The principle is the same, the fighter plane speed can never outrun a missile but has sharper turning angles that a missile cannot do as the missile already commits to its target previous flight path for a hit. I have seen some evasive maneuvers that redirects a missile either upwards or downwards, and the pilot quickly changes flight path as the missile closing in. The missile just losses "lock on" in trying to redirect itself.

[@ChrisV25]

From today's change log: Incorrect radar azimuth coverage after lock-on - fixed. I wonder if this will fix the issue you had maintaining lock.

[@GrowlingSidewinder]

excellent thank you for posting, I'll go check it out and see if it helps.

[@wgoulding]

A well produced video with valid principles, but I don't know how well this would work with against an intelligent pilot, who would not just fire off a single missile roughly max range and wait, but would instead would follow it up with more missiles as the range is reduced and you maneuver. By waiting to shoot your missile, the enemy is free to maneuver unhindered, and can focus on attacking you without worrying about any incoming missiles. In general, you want to reduce the amount of time the enemy can guide his missile with his radar (by making him turn away from you out of radar gimbal limits), as it will mean the missile has more ambiguity as to where you (it basically guesses after losing info from the radar) and is less likely to find you with its own radar when it turns on (obviously this is for active radar missiles). Good BVR tactics generally involve trying to get a good first shot in via afterburners, a slight climb, and a pull up right before the launch to let the missile take a more ballistic path that's energetically more efficient. If the enemy goes defensive without firing a shot in return, you are free to pursue and take a shot with better parameters (closer, faster, higher). If the enemy fires a missile back, you should generally defeat it as fast as possible. If you believe that the enemy's missile doesn't have good parameters, some direction changes will be good enough. Otherwise, you should fire immediately, and do a split-s away and downward to increase your speed, increase the missile's drag, and increase radar clutter (though not a big factor now a days due to pulse-doppler radar), with optional slight weaving. Although to be honest, I'm not sure how much of this is accurately modeled in a semi-simulator such as DCS.

[@andrewhanson9750]

emmmm there are a few points I'd like to mention: 1. The current guiding agorism for all AA missiles is quite aggressive so evasive maneuvers are super effective compared to FC2. 2. You are kind of assuming su27 only carrying R27R instead of ER/ET. If first contact being 25km it'll be best to drop a few flares at 16km and 12km to evade potential ET attacks. A good tactic from FC2 era su27 pilots would be also entering BVR with higher speed, after firing first ER, barrel roll down with 35deg bearing difference and drop altitude, forcing a downward looking situation for the other side and fire an R27ET/R77 at ~20km.

[@DavidAnthonyFlores]

Thank you Kanye, very cool.

[@therealcharliesix7126]

Great breakdown. Good vid!

[@223frankthetank]

This is awesome to watch for us who can’t play dcs on our shitty pC’s. Thanks :) I subbed

[@GrowlingSidewinder]

thanks glad you enjoyed it. and welcome to the channel.

[@yoyoyoyoshua]

to add to when you talked about the hornet losing lock easily. I also noticed and tested that when you roll to fast the hornet will lose lock. So if you lock a target that's lets say 20 degrees to the left if you roll to fast you will lose lock. After the roll you can pull the stick back as far as you want but the roll is what causes it to lose lock.

[@GrowlingSidewinder]

great thank you for confirming that, its nice to know its not just me its having issues. I know I read on the Forums the radar lock issues are something they're working on.

[@CakePrincessCelestia]

It's been like that since the Hornet is out in early access. You have to roll like a Fok. E. III, otherwise lock tends to gets broken. I'll throw a pone party when they'll have nailed this down eventually :D

[@ptrisonic]

Good explanation. Pete.

[@AlbertPhan]

This was quite the interesting recommended video. Cool explanation!

[@mcgeufer]

Oh, that's very interesting. I guess its safe to conclude that dogfights or general close combat (visual range) will stay. At least for the near future.

[@MeowyBrigade]

This is for a game/simulation though, we might not know necessary classified info to draw a true conclusion

[@MoizRafay]

That was unexpectedly cool

[@kenhelmers2603]

Slick move :) Reminds me of "combat tactics Mr Ryan.." :)

[@codecodderson3607]

Just a tip for PvP vs. a flanker after he fires that 27er most likely will fire a 27et right after probably just as you are cranking back across so dump a bunch of flares and come out of burner after you launch that 120 or aim-7 he will most likely turn cold as well after he fires that et.

[@GrowlingSidewinder]

great little tip. thanks for sharing.

[@thomasbessis2809]

Just to add to that, if he's smart he'll fire the ET before the ER. I've had ET heads lock on to my ER missiles before... Ya feel stupid

[@GrowlingSidewinder]

we got some experienced sukhoi pilots here solid tips fellas.

[@Dcs-Brasil]

Very good vídeo. Good pointer here. I do lots of maneuvers when i fight against American planes. Its Very well loaded. I apologyze my nas english. I had tons of vídeos showing fights in multiplayer.

[@dev0random]

Flanker pilot here, I don't fire an ET after firing a 27ER, that' s just dumb. Typical in PVP to drop chaff and flares anyways, making the ET a complete waste when it can be used far more effectively on unsuspecting pilots with a fire and forget. I'd rather waste all my ER's to make you flop around to a lower altitude so I can munch on you (Because ER's are essentially useless).

[@trykozmaksym]

This is awesome. Before watching your channel I believed dogfights were WWII stuff and missiles hit 100% :D

[@GrowlingSidewinder]

always love to hear people are learning stuff from these videos

[@Festias]

Extremely helpful, thanks for sharing this!

[@GrowlingSidewinder]

glad u enjoyed it

[@justins21482]

This is an awesome tactic/maneuver. learned something new!

[@eddygraham6057]

you sir, should of been in top gun. my brother is a test pilot in the RAF and I dont think he could of explained it better, subscribed

[@GrowlingSidewinder]

im flattered man thank you. (even tho ur being too kind)

[@henrikvester7171]

Great video - very helpful​

[@MrLiquidxIce]

i use to be a home shut in for whole my life after watching your videos i finally learned to fly and now i am captain of an air strike force .

[@DanielLanducciSpotting]

You have to be very cold-blooded and trust that the maneuver will work properly but it's a technique I didn't know. I'll try later! I hope you are well, brother!

[@GrowlingSidewinder]

Daniel Landucci thanks Daniel I'm doing great buddy hope ur awesome too.

[@drunktroll4042]

Top explication thanks mate 😀

[@GrowlingSidewinder]

Drunk Troll thanks man

[@RomeoJulietWhiskey]

How did you re-aquire the lock so quick? Boresight mode? Auto-aquisition?

[@GrowlingSidewinder]

yes sir, ACM Bore sight mode, scanning horizon. (cuz I know from the previous lock his general altitude and only 3 seconds had passed so I made a general guess as to where he was) u won't have to deal with this long once they fix the hornets radar so don't worry too much about it.

[@lkyfly0047]

i wanna know this too!

[@ShuRugal]

hmm, that is good info - when the hornet cranks and looses lock, split-S and haul ass the other way to reposition for an ET shot...

[@richardcheney6964]

I have no idea why this showed up in my recommendations, but I'm not upset

[@SidiVici]

Great vid and great tutorial. Im learnig and improving a hell of a lot with your in game footage + tac view tutorials. TKS from Argentina! Already suscribed, sadly cant do it twice :P

[@GrowlingSidewinder]

SidiVici haha thanks brother I'm glad ur enjoying the content. Thanks for the nice feedback.

[@recon17]

Learned a lot from your vids. @growling sidewinder sir, thank you for this.

[@GrowlingSidewinder]

Ur most welcome brother

[@kwisatzhaderach1458]

Great job

[@rainham47]

Brilliant tutorial!

[@GrowlingSidewinder]

rainham47 thanks very much

[@dmh0667ify]

Excellent vid! +Subscribed.

[@GrowlingSidewinder]

thank you, and welcome to the channel.

[@troymackaway8986]

Great video, thank you

[@GrowlingSidewinder]

Troy Mackaway ur very welcome

[@cyberpilot6512]

I learnt this manouvour on a simple phone game called missiles - to win at that game you break the missile locks the same way using the S turns - the timing is critical though.

[@ChrisV25]

5 Dead Sukhoi drivers disliked this video.

[@dev0random]

I voted up. The tactic and analysis is sound with the way the game works with AiM-7's and ER's. Any good Sukhoi driver knows not to do anything head on with anyone armed with AiM-120's, especially an F-15 doing a high altitude, high speed, burn and scoot tactic with 120's.

[@tswdev]

The tactic works regardless of airplanes used btw. Sukhoi drivers have a few more tricks up their sleeves than Hornet drivers atm

[@dilleralex]

They are Pilots not drivers btw

[@ChrisV25]

They are actually just video game players goo.gl/images/Vkm9tQ

[@ShuRugal]

yeah, I really wish ED would get around to updating all the missile flight models... I gave up playing DCS Jets years ago because I got fed up with the SPAMRAAM meta being unstoppable after they broke missiles by putting them on the new flight model engine with the old flight model data...

[@hitstick567]

Great video

[@zohanrock]

really made me miss the days when combat simulations was all the rage. F-16 fighting falcon. And game manuals as thick as a bible.

[@DeeyooDeko]

Excelent tactic bro

[@phelens4781]

I understand this is an older video however still relevant so I'll ask a quick question if you have time... What happens if the Flanker fires missiles in succession. Would that negate this maneuver? Thank you. Your professionalism and expertise far exceeds most if not all the related content on KZbin.

[@Dwight511]

You should compile an "art of the kill" video class with these videos. xD

[@GrowlingSidewinder]

Daniel Pogosyan haha id love to do something like that.

[@cyberpilot6512]

Daniel Pogosyan - he needs to make sure he has a moustache though.

[@americanexpress888]

awesome video!

[@SimUKReviews]

Another great video.

[@denisbujoreanu5993]

GS, nice explanation of the F-pole maneuver however I have a couple of observations: 1. The initial bank is best done in the vertical plane to make sure the opponent's missile also has to bleed some extra energy by going vertical against gravity then you level off and bank to one side to finally lose the missile. This allows for shorter distance when firing your missile, less time for his to adjust and reacquire you and less flight time for yours once you let it loose. 2. If he were to go by the book, that is the soviet book, as far as I know planes are equipped with both SARH and ET (so it's R-27RE - Radar Energetic aka more thrust passive radar and R-27ET - Electrooptical Energetic aka IR guidance with extra boost) and the doctrine says fire one SARH, wait up to 5 seconds then let off an IR based as well, just to cover all bases. This will increase his PK quite a bit and make your F-pole harder as you'd have to juggle with two stones coming at you, each sensitive to some other form of jamming. They may not box you in but would definitely make it harder for you to know who's still coming at you, chances are the ET will still be chasing you. 3. Also you never mentioned the jammers on both planes which AFAIK should be on and pumping MW of scrambled EM noise for good measure. This usually helps with tipping the balance towards you braking a lock rather than him keeping it. Again, not going for the "know it all SOB" with the hindsight "I told you so" but if you're doing these videos which I think are great for newcomers to ACM it would be worth mentioning some of the more realistic engagement scenarios. I won't even go into many vs many BVR because that's even more complicated than figuring out the lottery odds. Cheers

[@GrowlingSidewinder]

Hey there thanks for your comment. Point 1 ur absolutely correct going vertical is also an advantage I didnt mention it as I was also trying to drive home the point of causing extra lead for the missile which I thought would be hindered by sacrificing speed to go vertical. but you're absolutely correct that adding that in would bleed more energy. (assuming you had the speed to go slightly vertical but still have enough speed to force the missile to have to make a decent lead) 2.the video I did after this (f-pole continued) is how I would address a multiple threat engagement, IR and/or Radar or multiple contacts, I kind of developed it myself so its deff open to scrutiny. 3.I did not mention the jammers (because I forgot lol) but I should have, but I forgot because I was leaving it until the end, I was trying to phrase this to be usable for all aircraft, even the mig21 (as far as i know there no jammer in that). So I didnt want to give the impression that you NEEDED a jammer to try this, But I wanted to say if you have one use it but like I said I forgot. Thanks for your comment and ur absolutely correct on all points. Thanks for the feedback. I might include this stuff If I decide to do a part 3 on the Fpole down the road.

[@denisbujoreanu5993]

Hey GS, thanks for your remarks. As I mentioned (I hope I did) this wasn't meant as a critique comment just adding some personal notes that I found, as you did over the years, to work in most (some) cases. AFAIK MiG-21 did not have indeed any relevant jammers until well...never....if you don't count the variants made by satellite countries after the fall from 1989. I know that RoAF did an upgrade to the fleet of aging Fishbeds we operated using Israeli hardware from Elbit - pretty cool stuff they produced, even better than standard NATO/US gear in some cases. In any case, good video, keep up the good work and at least for my part I appreciate you're not taking any comments coming your way in a negative manner. If you ever use some of the suggestions we, the viewers make, then more the better. Cheers

[@zbeast]

slick move...

[@dhruvshukla5496]

Some questions - 1. Initial crank was done on the basis of missile launch input on the RWR. How is the RWR able to pick up that input, bandit's radar was in STT mode and continued to be in it when he fired, so how does the RWR indications change. Even you if you consider firing of CW illuminator for a semi active missile, what would be the case for an active launch or a heater ? 2. active vs semi-active, i guess no one is dumb enough to continue. but even in a semi-semi fight, a smart bandit would follow up the initial Rmax shot with a lower range shot, this second missile would be flying into you, while you reversed your crank, and being fired at a closer range would have the energy to hit you without much heading change. even if you waste 2 seconds to re-acquire and let off a missile, it is not possible that the bandit was hit first and you were not...by this second missile. but a very nicely made video otherwise for concepts.

[@darkshadow7709]

Awesome! Very helpful indeed!!!

[@Nsane211]

thanks

[@zivh]

Thank you for this important lesson :)

[@MyUnoriginalUsername]

*almost as sophisticated as GTA V missiles*

[@cool_cat007smoove3]

Nice video

[@kurtbenner8095]

genuinely love your content. I feel like I'm being taught to dogfight in fighter school.

[@GrowlingSidewinder]

thanks man, means a lot to me, I'm learning with you guys as we go along. its a great experience. thanks for your support on the channel man. I appreciate it very much.

[@kurtbenner8095]

@@GrowlingSidewinder are you by chance a fighter pilot or do you just know a lot

[@GrowlingSidewinder]

no brother i'm not a fighter pilot. i'm flattered u even thought to ask that tho lol. I also don't think I know a lot. I'm learning or perfecting a lot of these concepts for myself before I make a video so its a lot of work and a lot of learning. so thats what I mean when I say I'm learning with you guys as we go along.

[@kurtbenner8095]

ah good to know, have you ever thought of becoming one?

[@GrowlingSidewinder]

if they let me, I'd join up tmrw.

[@kbuss10]

I usually use this f-pole manouver with my girlfriend. she just jumps on my f-pole and kaboom i just shoot, its always a hit :D lol :DD

[@GrowlingSidewinder]

its a great maneuver with many applications...

[@THE-BUNKEN-DRUM]

Krisztián : HAHAHA I salute you.

[@christianarboleda7872]

I'll experiment with that....

[@Proximax9]

Ive tried doing this before, but it often fails. My guess it's because either my timing is wrong (turning too soon) or that the enemy fires several missiles preventing me from actually escaping them all. Still, nice to see this in tacview, really shows how important it is to wait those three long seconds.

[@GrowlingSidewinder]

ya those 3 seconds will make the difference. u break too soon and that missile hasn't committed to leading u, its got energy to now follow ur turn and thats how u die. (please note the 3 seconds is based on distance the missile was fired, don't do this maneuver 10 miles away from target u'll die 2 seconds into the 3 second hold. use it upwards of 25 miles to target)

[@SsgtHolland]

Nice one!

[@killer777909]

Nice video, even i dont know english well, i understood things that you said

[@GermanTopGameTV]

So it's like a good old wild west duel - whoever draws first is getting shot

[@EnricoJetStream]

i'm glad to know that you believe that...

[@philbivins7133]

great tutorial....I am nowhere close to learning this aircraft...still working on the Cessna 172 Trainer...hopefully they will put an Amram on the 172....just kidding...

[@GrowlingSidewinder]

ahahha. be sure to let me know if they do. that'll make one hell of a video.

[@philbivins7133]

Will do GS....I do have a relationship with the Hornet from their early days. I was onboard USS Nimitz circa 1980 when the Hornets were just coming out. Our main aircraft as you know was the Tomcat. Carter was POTUS during that time. Getting parts for our Hornets were near impossible. Good to know the Super Hornets will be getting upgrades....

[@pgtmr2713]

Cessna 172 wings depart at mach 3 would make for some good YT... pack a chute.

[@El_Dee]

Growling Sidewinder bvr cambat in a 172, I’m down

[@chrissullivan6574]

Given the seeming detail described in this video, I’ve never played this game and probably never will despite my fascination with aircraft and air combat, I performed a quick search after hearing the speed of the R-27. Wikipedia (yes, yes, I know, I’m just not that concerned with being that exact in this situation) listed the speed of the R-27 as 4 to 4.5 Mach and range, of the shortest variant, as 70km. That would lead me to think that the lead angle, and by default, flight time to the target, your plane, would be much shallower and shorter.

[@Kevin-yh8ol]

Hopefully your videos will encourage more people to fly in PvP servers instead of dicking around in aerobatic servers xD

[@boulderco13]

Is that missile impact sound something you added? If so, try adding a slight delay from the hit to the boom to account for the speed of sound. I think it would add some more realism to what you have going on. Great vid.

[@GrowlingSidewinder]

B R thanks ya I tried it and didn't love how long I had to stay on the frame to get the sound cuz sometimes I show from a distance I'd have to stay on the frame for longer than I'd like and then play the sound. I duno I'm torn about that effect. Maybe I'll try it again and see how it looks thanks for the suggestion

[@boulderco13]

@@GrowlingSidewinder maybe a very slight delay. Just a suggestion. Either way, great videos.

[@GrowlingSidewinder]

B R thanks man I appreciate it

[@ethanhiggins4887]

Lol I learned how to kill sams and started applying it to dogfights. Turns out I’ve been doing this maneuver all along to get a better shot.

[@christophercoccitti7594]

Bank 45 at 30 dive to exchange altitude for energy and denser air

[@TheKorbi]

I think this might be useful in Battlefield 4 as well ^^

[@asdfasdf825]

Great video. I gotta ask, where did you get your knowledge of combat dynamics?

[@GrowlingSidewinder]

MAC C well I don't actually know anything but what little I do I learned from decades of books and documentaries and pilot interviews etc. Basically anything I could get my hands on.