Deafened or Killed

[@sambridgers9543]

The best part about this scene is that your character utterly deserves this chewing out.

[@sambridgers9543]

@@blunatmay4459 Thanks!

[@kinbolluck476]

YW BRO

[@parkerdixon-word6295]

I love that, for all the Darkness in Kreia, she was always just disappointed in an Exile who followed the Dark Side. She didn't want you to destroy the Jedi, she wanted the Exile to *reforge them* into something better than themselves. Something that might never produce another Atris, so blinded by the Code and the rules of the Jedi that she couldn't even see the very Darkness within her that the code was made to help her resist. That's the real endgame of a light-side playthrough of KotOR 2- a Jedi Order rebuilt and more able to question itself, had it succeeded. And maybe they did, for a time. Clearly not forever, as the Prequels display with abundant clarity, but maybe Kreia's vision did come to pass, at least somewhat.

[@camendiv]

She wanted the end of the Force. Period. In any case, the bitch kills them even if you don't, so the ending for them doesn't change, and the reasons hardly matter to them after they're dead.

[@camendiv]

@@blunatmay4459 They're still dead. And there never was a Kreiya, just Traya the Betrayer.

[@camendiv]

@@blunatmay4459 She dubs herself Lord of Betrayal and tells you not to trust her. Kreiya is an illusion.

[@Turtle1631991]

@@camendiv The difference being that in light side playthrough they get the chance to see the error of their ways. Instead they decided to stay blind fools and they very much contribute to their own demise when they attack the player. Personally I think that Vrook is one of the villains of the whole game. His stubborn one dimensional perception of world and sentient being condition embodies all the game is trying to deconstruct about Star Wars.

[@camendiv]

@@Turtle1631991 It helps no one if they "see the error of their ways" and immediately die. Everything was in service to Traya's self serving desires, to do through the Exile what she couldn't do herself because nobody cares about what she has to say; not even the Exile. Until she was coerced.

[@bobbuilder7952]

Basically, in a dark side play through, you’re no better than Darth Nihilus

[@PapitoQinn]

Or Darth Sion.

[@Gazpacho834]

You can even argue that you’re worse than Nihilus as at the very least he needed to feed off others for his never ending hunger

[@onestupidboi9320]

@@PapitoQinn is Darth Sion really that bad?

[@cbass7283]

No you are much worse, as you end up dominating the will off the galaxy to serve your own desires

[@AlyssMa7rin]

Nihilus had no choice. He had to feed to survive. You make the choice to do what you do.

[@karlmeaner2624]

I usually enjoy playing the bad guy in games where you have free choice, but for some reason this scene actually made me feel a sense of guilt for what I had done. Probably because what Kreia said was absolutely true, the entire galaxy is completly doomed and I was responsible. It was all fun and games when I was making the decisions at the time but seeing the empty council room on dantooine along with Kreia's lecture, it just really sank in the irreversible consequences of what I had done as a character. In that sense it was probably the most memorable scene I had seen in a video game.

[@armandoalcb]

Man, this scene makes me appreciate Avellone's writing even more.

[@EricGraham94]

Echoes of his writing for KOTOR II were felt in Jedi Fallen Order, especially the plot element of Cal Kestis' connection to the Force being damaged while 5 years in hiding. He had chosen to deafen himself from the Force for the sake of his own well-being ("It is because you were afraid/had no choice."). Furthermore, it's another great example of using a plot point to implement a game mechanic; Cal essentially had to (re)learn how to use the Force again. The story overall however does not compare to KOTOR II's deconstruction of the ENTIRE Star Wars franchise, not just to subvert our expectations (the right way), but also to ENRICH that foundation Star Wars gave us.

[@RyanTheDark]

Now if he is in charge of Lucas Film, Star Wars would have been seen brighter days.

[@ChrisPoindexter98]

@@EricGraham94 Wonderful to see. Also, I saw what you did there with _"echoes."_ 😏

[@bunkiebunk]

@@EricGraham94 he's on some next level shit on KOTOR II tho.. some religious shit

[@OSTATEboi419]

I have always personally felt like the KOTOR 2 story is deeper than any of the movie trilogies.

[@Garmagic2yFhenrakh9]

Nothing hurts more than having a teacher giving up on you. And yet, nothing opens your eyes more than that. Trust me, I went through that when I was seventeen. I snapped out of most of my incompetences, and I think he knew that.

[@mortman200]

"This is what you have wrought. Countless murderers, slayers, assassins, born of war that has, as always, taught the wrong lesson." You can hear her voice ever so slightly crack at that moment, like it absolutely broke her heart to see what you had become.

[@platypusguineapig]

When I killed all the Jedi for my Darkside play I felt so guilty after she called me out.....

[@bird9230]

I felt that too. I thought i was gonna kill a bunch of them here (as the whole game told you you would) and then tbere was no one. Emptyness. Thats just so good

[@bird9230]

@@rjayshaun well if you choose to kill them one by one, they tell you they'll gather to stop you. Thats why you come. To finish off the remnants. But there are none. Like Kreia said, a quite thing...

[@estherkirakawaii]

Kreia: I'm not angry just disappointed

[@JKozlovable]

I don't remember ever seeing that self-stab scene. It was so shocking. The last time I played this game was about 10 years ago. Then I had such a lack of understanding. Much of what Kreia said rang hollow in my pubescent ears. I hope I can play this game again some time.

[@EricGraham94]

In the original neutered Obsidian version, yes - Kreia does merely drain the Exile. But to self-stab and inflict pain on oneself just to inflict pain upon the Exile - THAT was shocking and hammered the point quite dramatically.

[@JKozlovable]

@@EricGraham94 YEAH, that's exactly what I remember happened when I played. Yet, this feels so much more powerful. However, I can tell that just this scene could skyrocket its EsRB rating.

[@daviddavidson9923]

@@JKozlovable you can get kotor2 on steam for $10 and the restored content mod for free

[@liaml.e.5964]

It is on Steam now.

[@remainprofane7732]

I went dark side for my first playthrough of KOTOR 2 as a kid and even though I didn’t exactly understand why Kreia was disappointed, I felt her disapproval. To the point that I would’ve spared her if she let me at the Trayus core despite basically playing as a slasher

[@gronndar]

I remember when I played these as a kid. I was laughing how I used the Force to have Zalbaar kill Mission and how in the end you get an empire. Here everything felt so hollow, it left you empty.

[@TheCakeIsNotLie]

dude i can never force myself to force zaalbar to kill mission couldn't back then, still cant now. little blue girl and big walking carpet are too precious 💀💀💀

[@Blastanker]

Oh wow the “you have failed me” remake that’s been teased at for years at this point!!

[@Blastanker]

Vid put me in a generous mood for some weird reason, check that PayPal my man

[@PapitoQinn]

@@Blastanker Oh I saw it. You've just helped me decide to make an investments of sorts. One that I'll be talking about on the next Static and I hope can drive more traffic to the channel. Thank You again, man! You're really helping this channel grow.

[@Greiffenhorst]

I've never heard Kreia use this dialogue during my darkside playthrough. Mine was the same as the Knights & Darths video.

[@GeriatricFan1963]

Might be the Restored content mod.

[@Garmagic2yFhenrakh9]

10:20 Metra: _"Wait, can I turn upside down? I don't like dying facing the sun. Bad for my skin."_

[@mr.vorrnyvorrn2516]

This is why Milo Surik is superior.

[@AK-hi7mg]

Just the soundtrack on this game is a masterpiece

[@scottwelling]

Some parts remind me of Spiderman for some reason

[@rookie5708]

It's so sad to see how under-loved the KOTOR series has gotten these days by most people, but at least a good amount of people still remember/acknowledge Kreia's cynical-yet-sensical teachings. I always love hearing them, and you always enrich them so damn well...! ^-^

[@eccentricjoe5410]

I feel kotor 1 gets all the love whilst kotor 2 is just forgotten, which really disappoints me as in my opinion, it's one of if not the best star wars stories out there. It really makes you question morality in a series that is usually black and white.

[@SlackJawJack]

@@eccentricjoe5410 I'm grateful that I grew up on ii & hadn't played I until recently. Like I've read from others, much of Kreia's teachings were well beyond my prepubescent comprehension. However, I digress; the story line in I. Was hokey and very childlike. Ii. Definitely has a depth that I lack the words for- I mean this video is just one example of many from the Sith Lord's that I continue to learn from. A true master-piece .

[@alexeiharp7676]

@@eccentricjoe5410 I kinda disagree on the white and black aspect of star wars since it's always been more relations vs code than light vs darkness but I get your point. Kotor 1 was indeed excepting the Jedi council discutable actions mostly about saving/ruling the universe and manichean with almost every character path being about integrity and all. Kotor 2 needs distance and growth to be enjoyed to the fullest philosophically and character wise , I was but a teenager back then and with the xbox version it felt like an uncomplete game wich definitely was. A lot of scenes are missing, interactions and side quests incomplete. Left a really weird impression whereas kotor 1 was mastered completely. I heard the uncut version is really something else

[@ecsTAZypop]

No, Kotor 1-2 game is like a parent to me... Learned so much... Will always overlove this

[@CJXalax]

The edit to the music from 3:38-3:50 is something I always appreciated about Knights&Darths' "You have failed me" video and I'm really glad you used it for this one. The Rebuilt Jedi Enclave theme is so beautiful...

[@ahsoka5216]

This game will forever be the best of Star Wars to me: the lore, the deconstruction of the force, the characters, and the story in general.

[@whiteelephant3673]

For many years I've been piecing together the whole picture of the plot, of Kreia's ideology... But all this times I tried to follow the LS path, saving the jedi, helping others, and still there blank spots were left. And here... Kreia just... Delivers all the truth, clears all the events that happened and are about to happen. There's much to process for me.

[@firestarter6488]

I wonder if Alderan created a wound in the Force in the same way...

[@tsukopara2054]

Alderaan’s destruction created a Wound but not one like Malachor V or the Exile. Those Wounds were corrosive & dealt passive damage over time. Alderaan was a standard Wound which made Force users feel discomfort, but didn’t echo throughout the Force & corrode it as Malachor V did.

[@barone8889]

Alderaan's destruction was quick and painless. The destruction of Malechor though....all these warriors fighting...one side for glory...another to protect and to avenge...all this bloodshed and during the peak of all an event that caused death in both sides. Mandalorians seeing their fellow's crushed...some feeling fear..others being in awe of the power Revan showed...meanwhile on the opposing side lives being sacrificed....betrayal and death at the hands of those who were supposed to care for one another. Malechor was an emotional nuclear bomb. And that is why it echoed and scarred the Force itself.

[@0ninja213]

Alderaan didn't have many force sensitives or force users, so it was minor compared to malachor. Malachor had thousands of Jedi and sith.

[@ABFan-bj2uj]

@@barone8889 So, if Revan were to bomb the True Sith into the Stone Age, then how would (s)he do it?

[@barone8889]

@@ABFan-bj2uj No clue.

[@chasehedges6775]

The moment Kreia reveals her true self.

[@Mr_Gray_1995]

“You have not heard a thing I have taught, and for all I have said...you have never learned. to listen....”

[@wozzow00]

To me, this was when we could confirm that Kreia was not a Jedi or Sith, her actions and words before this clearly showed she wasn’t a Jedi, but when she stated that she only wanted the Jedi to learn not die, that confirmed she wasn’t a sith, she is not Sith or Jedi, she is something else.

[@GeriatricFan1963]

She does acknowledge here that they were too big a threat (presumably to her plans) to be left alive though; if you don't kill them then Kreia does.

[@beskamir5977]

@@GeriatricFan1963 She kills them by accident, her intention was to deafen them to the force and make them see the galaxy through the eyes of the exile. Unfortunately they relied too heavily on the force and being cut off so abruptly killed them. Or rather, (idea I just had) they did not let go of the force (deafen themselves to it) as the exile did at Malachor. They may not have feared death so instead of letting go they kept holding on to the force and it caused them to die.

[@wozzow00]

@@beskamir5977 It wasn't that they were killed, they considered the force to be life itself so when it started to leave them they instinctively held on to it because they were trained to believe that there is no life without the force, but because of the exile Kreia knew that was wrong and that it is possible to live without the force, if the masters had let the force leave them without trying to hold onto it they most likely would have lived, but because they relied so heavily on it they couldn't and as a result they died.

[@beskamir5977]

@@wozzow00 That's basically the point I was making.

[@GeriatricFan1963]

Wozzow made it more eloquently though. But it was me that made the mistake in the first place; she did kill them but that was not the point. The point was to prove them wrong and challenge their philosophy.

[@ianbaker672]

0:01 me when I return to this channel after a couple of weeks

[@PapitoQinn]

What's changed?

[@ianbaker672]

@@PapitoQinn you got more videos! I was just making a meme

[@PapitoQinn]

@@ianbaker672 I just thought you haven't been around since I started doing a new kind of video or something.

[@Star-cs3vh]

Even though i really like kreia lightside dialogue more the dark side version is just as good

[@Echani3007]

5:36 I'm getting Fallout NV Ulysses flashbacks

[@bullseye5262]

It feels like she has a stronger distaste of the Jedi compared to the Sith. Their betrayal seems to be taken a lot more personally than the one she experienced from the Sith. She wants to prove the Jedi wrong, but feels to no need to do the same to the Sith. Interesting.....and curious

[@bullseye5262]

BLunatmay but at the same time she’s not as judgmental of the Sith belief which is the source of my curiosity. The Sith are only “limited” and “blind” as they allow themselves to be. Even their selfish actions aren’t without benefit to others She finds fault in the Jedi teaching more than the Sith’s and that’s what I want to understand.

[@bullseye5262]

All for Sloth so it’s more “expected” due to their nature in a way? So, she didn’t take it as personally as she took the Jedi’s betrayal.

[@bullseye5262]

Dustin I or more enticing than it seems as well

[@beskamir5977]

Well it's expect the Sith betray one another. Thus Kreia knew full well they will always just be her apprentices/masters/coworkers but never friends. While with Jedi she expect them to be her friends. She don't expect them to betray her and blind themselves to the rejection/hurt they caused. And for betrayal to hurt most one must not expect it.

[@theriseofdaddypalpy7876]

I agree with most of what’s been said here and would like to add something else to help tie all of these great points together even further. The Sith, unlike the Jedi, were ultimately born out of a need to evolve, innovate, and introduce new ideas on the Force to a Jedi Order who had for so long (and in some ways still do) followed the same dogma and practices lain down by their forebears. I believe that Kreia feels more biased towards the Sith in general, or more specifically many of their ideas, because they often as not aren’t afraid to change and adapt to situations in order to be better equipped to combat said situations. While the Sith are more adaptable than the Jedi, they too still ultimately rely upon the principles of code. Kreia does not. Not only this but she is also known to tell the exile ...“To believe in a ideal is to be willing to betray it. It is something that no Jedi or Sith has ever learned.” To put it simply, she is trying to get you to have an open mind and to not be afraid to open yourself up to new ideas.

[@cyberninjazero5659]

Darth Pariah (what I call a Darkside Exile) is like the Genocide Run a cool alternative that shows a different side of the game.

[@ZorroCeleste1]

Why "Pariah"?

[@GeriatricFan1963]

The darkside path is still written well...You ultimately have to experience the same story, and often make similar choices to a lightside exile, but the reasoning behind those choices is completely different. And I think it stems from the idea that, as the Disciple says if you turn him into a dark jedi, "strength is what the galaxy needs right now,"; instead of trying to heal her wound, the exile draws upon others to feed it. But like Kreia says here, the darkside exile took away the wrong lesson from the mandalorian wars.

[@cyberninjazero5659]

@@ZorroCeleste1 oh that's easy look up the meaning of the word. I think it fits perfectly well with the *Exile*

[@ZorroCeleste1]

@@cyberninjazero5659 - Star Wars: Jedi Academy - Jedi Outcast.

[@CryonicCy]

@@GeriatricFan1963 So what's the proper lesson you should learn from the mandolorian wars?

[@centerofattention5783]

What happens if you are Dark Side but don't kill the Jedi Masters?

[@PapitoQinn]

In that case it changes the reason behind why the Exile cut herself off from the force. I explain in this video: kzbin.info/www/bejne/aIrUfal-rc15qMk

[@tweso1499]

Papito Qinn I always wondered that as well, up until I watched that video. Thanks for the knowledge

[@PillWool]

If you don't kill the Jedi Masters the scene at the enclave will be the exact same as it is on the light side. The exile's alignment doesn't matter.

[@lylemoore3827]

​@@PillWool kreias explanation of why she cut herself off from the force changes though. Light side is because you were afraid, dark side is because you had no choice. That's the only difference I'm aware of

[@1207rorupar]

​@@PapitoQinnand if you're light side but kill the Masters?

[@felixmeuser6965]

The crack in Kreia‘s voice when she says: „and now you have left me nothing“ makes me sad everytime. She has put all her hopes in the exile and once again was betrayed by one of her students

[@mylesasipa1332]

@Papito Qinn This Miss Kreia's version of "Now Imma Drag You"

[@RustysRevenge]

10:18 Lol Exile fell back down, then fliped back up

[@22kingdomheartsfan]

I never saw this version of the scene, I always played full on light side.

[@lylemoore3827]

I've wondered for a while, if all the Jedi masters were killed, who repaired the enclave?

[@shredkaczynski8414]

handmaidens?

[@AlyssMa7rin]

Kreia, I imagine. She wanted you to learn the lesson regardless

[@CD-Freedom]

9:26 Can we go in-depth about the wrong lessons of war that Kreia is talking about.

[@julianp14]

Hey! I am not sure if you did. But you might consider uploading when T3 shows you the holograph where Revan gives Canderous the order to reunite the clans under his banner. The first time I saw it it was nearly the end of the game and it suited perfectly. Cheers man

[@PapitoQinn]

Thanks for the suggestion. I did find it, but since it didn't have any dialogue, I didn't make a video out of it. However I did use it as the thumbnail of this video: kzbin.info/www/bejne/m5vQd4huepmLqcU

[@noonefromnowhere7945]

My most satisfying dark side moment of any Star Wars game was Keira asking me if I was satisfied and my Sith Lord exile being like “not until I’ve killed every jedi “ he was an evil dude haha

[@111Kinetics]

Goddamnit, Kreia- I sided with Vaklu by mistake once, I didn't want to kill the masters, I didn't want any of this, lmao.

[@axl1002]

Love this game, still playing it sometimes when I get nostalgic. Don't remember the Dark side tho.

[@PapitoQinn]

The game has a remarkable amount of replay value.

[@sarekalexander5178]

I love this broken masterpiece

[@ra.n9482]

The moment Kreia stabbed herself and the music changes , her intimidation factor went from 0 to 100 really quick .

[@BlackDiamond2718]

Even though i hated vrook, it was not in me to kill any of them regardless. But i would defend myself from being severed from the force again.

[@michaelt7209]

No matter what you say or do, vrook will bitch about something. It's very toxic. Hated him in kotor 1 and kotor 2 he just got worst. I get a good laugh on the look on his face if you just let him get shipped to nar shadaa

[@mr.vorrnyvorrn2516]

Perhaps this scene was triggered by Milo Surik killing all the Jedi Masters at once. Milo Surik: The Jedi Council said that I am one of the Sith. That I am Visas' Master. Is that true? Kreia Kenobi: No.

[@James_ART_72000]

8:42 I finally understand what she meant by it. It was always her plan for the masters to die. They were a threat to her goal to destroy the force. The masters was holding the light side and made the force a little more balanced.

[@James_ART_72000]

Well not more balanced but they were just to powerful.

[@PapitoQinn]

Sion could feed on them and perhaps make him too powerful to defeat.

[@James_ART_72000]

@@PapitoQinn That makes alot of sense! Also the exile two scene this seen only is dark side.

[@shaolin1derpalm]

Echos echos blinded deafened echos.

[@southanime]

I watched these videos before playing the games, I'm currently playing Kotor1, and seeing the enclave in ruins made me shiver as if I watched for the first time

[@Garmagic2yFhenrakh9]

One question: If you kill one of the Masters but don't kill the other two (for example, you're pissed at Vrook but think that Zez-kai-el and Kavar are cool), will the "You were afraid" scene still happen, or killing one means killing all of them, leading to this scene?

[@PapitoQinn]

The scene will still happen. If you kill one you're forced to fight the others when you reach the enclave.

[@Garmagic2yFhenrakh9]

@@PapitoQinn So it's a bit of "you were afraid", then they say something like "you kill our friend we'll kill you ~even though it's against the Jedi code but whatever~ ", then the Exile kills them and then this scene happens?

[@PapitoQinn]

@@Garmagic2yFhenrakh9 Something like that, yes.

[@alexeiharp7676]

I still don't get story wise why Kreia revealed all this before the exile confronting Darth Sion and especially Nihilus, being the only one able to defeat them doesn't she still needs that help at that point? Or is she counting on Atris to train some force sensitive people able to confront them?

[@PapitoQinn]

She was trying to get the Exile to realize that she had become just like Sion and Nihilus. To get her to change.

[@alexeiharp7676]

@@PapitoQinn oh okay thanks

[@PapitoQinn]

@@alexeiharp7676 Yep

[@taewoosuh9323]

If they ever remaster this game, they should add a third 'true neutral' route.

[@troo_6656]

I think that this way it is for the best.

[@benjaminwilson8693]

Vojta Janda agreed

[@aimhrialta]

Apathy is death. Seriously though, I think that in a game that's all about choices,consequences, and influence the fact that, while you can make a mixed bag of choices, you will end up having some impact on the world in one way or another, and sometimes there is no third option, is entirely deliberate. You give to the beggar, or you refuse to do so (admittedly with varying degrees of charity or cruelty). You choose to kill a master or you don't

[@Pvt.Conscriptovich]

Is there different types of Kreia say: "It's been some time"?

[@Lichtenhammer]

I think there is, yes. I think she says another variant of "It's been some time" upon joining with Sion on Malachor.

[@Pvt.Conscriptovich]

@@Lichtenhammer well I mean on Dantooine. Cuz I remember there must be another variant.

[@da1stlangzai]

Yes there is. I played with the restored content mod and Kreia is alone in the garden when she touches the fountain and then sits back and says "It's been some time, the years haven't been kind to us both it seems". Maybe this guy doesn't have the same restored content version.

[@Pvt.Conscriptovich]

@@da1stlangzai still i mean another variant when Kreia say it maliciously.

[@sambridgers9543]

@@da1stlangzai I think that version comes if you go to the Enclave without Kreia, since she arrives after you.

[@stuarthunter2923]

Wow I do not remember kreia impaling herself with her sabre at all.

[@Tabby3456]

Me: *forced to fight and kill one jedi* The Rest of the Jedi order: There was no mistake, you did it for revenge Me: what? no! i did it in self defense Kreia: lol, you're an vengeful person. Why you gotta score an F on my test. Me: no i fucking didn't, why isn't there a dialouge option to let me choose if i can kill or to disarm the jedi?! WTF?

[@jonseon5952]

That's me when I was on light side but I also wanted to free Onderon from the weak queen.

[@comraddisc2783]

Try being on a dark side, do not kill Jedi masters, and when you meet them all - tell them that they'll be dealt with here and now, and enjoy the spectacle.

[@mn5499]

3 stars trip advisor

[@brovusmarillian3303]

Yes. I have taken away my Masters hearing rather than Kill seeing that is the lesser evil. Now they will not hear themselves speak such lunacy.

[@munfurai8083]

Do you have a version where Kreia say "and as you lie here, I pray you will listen, and finally awaken" as she leaves?

[@StonedMonkeyProductions]

I had fun playing dark side and not killing the masters. My next goal is to try a full bore grey playthrough. Will be rough but worth

[@GayLPer]

How difficult is it to do a dark side playthrough without killing the masters?

[@FRISHR]

Me: Jeez..does she ever stop talking? Kreia: *stabs herself and I* Me: Oh thank the Force! Kreia: *continues to talk* Me: ...........

[@Rotorzilla]

Can you walk around the jedi Enclave or is it just a cut scene?

[@PapitoQinn]

After the entire cutscene is over you can walk around.

[@christiansky942]

@@PapitoQinn there is a footlocker there too

[@pantonearqm2791]

What happens if you are Light Side and choose to kill the Jedi Masters?

[@PapitoQinn]

Same as this. It isn't your alignment that Kreia really cares about. She cares about your actions.

[@pantonearqm2791]

@@PapitoQinn I know, I just think that there will be something different, like it was with reunited masters on DS

[@PapitoQinn]

Hm, I'll look into it a little closer.

[@davidbridge2118]

It's strange that she basically says the same thing the masters does, validating their conclusion that the "teaching" must die, else all life is at risk. Yet she's very harsh with them for reacting fairly logically in trying to deal with the force blackholes. I suppose it would be because the idea of being cut off is very personal to her, having had it happen to her amidst the Sith, especially because the exile had already lost the connection and regained it like her.

[@PapitoQinn]

Both her and the Jedi master came to the same conclusion of what happened to the Exile at Malachor but they did not come to the same conclusion of what to do about it. The Jedi Masters still wanted to hold on to their teachings for dear life. To the point that it killed them. The masters wanted to bury this truth instead of facing it and that's what made Kreia so upset. The truth is the Force is a crutch. A Jedi can't even comprehend living without the force and yet, there's the Exile. Walking, talking, breathing proof that you reject it and still live on, even thrive. But Jedi wanted their power.

[@davidbridge2118]

@@PapitoQinn That's an interesting point. She was big on pretty much "everything" being a crutch in a way though; she uses this as a justification for not healing her eyes, because she could "see more" with things like other senses and the force. I understand the idea behind training or exploring life without any given sense or connection, to become stronger mentally at surviving, but it's interesting how she takes this as moral superiority. Even the exile didn't cut themself off because they wanted to, it was for survival. The same with Kreia, it was taken from her... so really, she knows that no one "chooses" it. Thematically, she's consistent because they used to criticize her for, "Kreia's conundrums" in which she posited what a Jedi would be without a lightsaber or without the force, etc. But the masters didn't want to kill the exile, only stop the wound echos, and learned behavior of Sith that eventually lead to things like Nihilus, which Kreia knew and admitted the leeching was bad. She explains how the hunger can consume everything as almost happened with ancient Sith. She simply wants to kill the force through a painful scream, rather than a being that is possessed by hunger, consuming through bond/leeching. I guess I'm saying she's a bit inconsistent in her principles for claiming anything "moral" here. The Jedi masters reaction was similar enough in wanting to deal with the threat the best way they knew how. She simply had a personal vendetta against the force itself due to her reading of the ancient Sith, in which they posit the force having a will and controlling them ultimately. This mesotheism is personal subjective stance as opposed to objective. You could hate being in a flesh body and conclude it would be better off transferring to a machine for example, or hate anything that subjects you to overt casualty or limitation. I'm not sure she fully maintained the "lesson" of objective vs subjective truths. She grasped everything else though, such as causality, all actions being a form of manipulation etc. I learned more philosophy and teaching from her than almost any teacher combined in my life, so I love the character. I just found some of her justifications a bit off. I'd rather she admit she cut them off for more "personal" reasons. Such as being triggered about someone being cut off against their will, especially after regaining it like she did. She admits some personal bias in the end when she says she may just be justifying things because she has come to rely on something she hates.

[@PapitoQinn]

@@davidbridge2118 I can't say that she's taking a stance of moral superiority because the one thing that really separates Kreia from the Jedi is the lack of morality. She tries to teach this to the Exile. She says at one point: "You limit yourself by pretending that morality is important to you. That's not who you are, who you can become." People just do things, morality is a set of opinion and therefor not really applicable to her in the grand scheme of things. The grand scheme being the Force. Technically the Exile had a choice. Like the Jedi Masters, she could have chosen to hold on to the Force no matter what and probably die, or effectively die by turning into something like Nihilus. Which is exactly what she becomes if she kills the masters. I think I spoke about this in one of my Kreia's Conundrums videos. At the enclave Kreia asks her: "Has killing them brought you any measure of peace?" And every answer the Exile can give is a variation of "No, I have to keep killing." And that's what upsets Kreia. The Exile stared into that proverbial abyss and turned into what she's been fighting this whole time. Just like Sion and Nihilus. Another failure. The masters wanted to stop the Exile's echoes, because she was a wound. Everything she did and created were eventualities outside of the force. True freedom in Kreia's eyes. But in the eyes of the Jedi? A threat. "From one perspective they were correct." - "You will lead to the end of the force, and the end of the Jedi." It's that second part that they were really worried about. Nihilus could have destroyed the force. Without anything for the force to flow through, it's essentially or even truly dead. Kreia wanted to deafen the galaxy to the force, making it so it's influence would be gone, essentially killing it. Because it really is abhorrent to have this thing assigning destinies to people's lives, trying to achieve some idea of "balance" for how long now? Unless this "balance" is just perpetual war across the stars. Star Wars. Beyond admitting the possibility of her being too dependent on the force herself, Kreia also says that it was a mistake to make the Exile feel the force again. I think she has a point.

[@davidbridge2118]

@@PapitoQinn Yes, I'm in agreement on most of those things being her mainstream view "most" of the time. She teaches some Nitzche & Machievelli philosophy to apprentices to grow them in instances. Though I feel it's noticeable that she does take a morality on occasion, (a position of moral superiority) by means of people learning the "wrong lesson" from war for example. And as you said, a "failure". This upsets her because of her internal schemas on "greater good", and "right and wrong". She has it strongly enough to allude to carnal things that consume you, imbalance you, lead to death, etc, as bad or wrong. I know she had more than one reason for removing the Jedi masters also though. She mentioned that at one point, that they could not be allowed to remain, if I recall because they themselves were too powerful, or perhaps also a threat to her grand plan to destroy/isolate the force. But it is ultimately her tone that betrays a certain personal investment in them "learning" or behaving a certain way. That sense of what they "should do" comes from a belief that her way of strength and growth is "best". In her eyes everyone should follow this continual path of strength. It's as if she has her own code, some from Sith, some from Jedi, looking something like this: Always seek to gain strength and view every challenge as an opportunity. Lusts, passions, dependencies weaken you, and are there to teach you to abandon them when you can. Understand the need for balance, and the importance of life on a grand scale doing well, and finding equilibrium as all actions can have infinite consequences. The force is evil because it allows extreme power fluctuations amidst life, that ultimately leads to mass death as it seeks to balance, yet maintaining disparity. This is still her opinion, but as a "teacher" she sort of forces it on everyone (especially when she plans to create the final echo), no pun and irony intended. From what I remember, the game alluded to her coinjoinment of collaborative pain scream potentially killing all things that felt the force. If that happened, the force would at least be temporarily dead; we may have had force sensitives popping up again later and collectively creating at least reborn force potentially. I agree with a lot of things, even her "superiority" to a point. But her Mesotheism is completely subjective (she admits she hates the force). Look at the real world, or even the Death Star for example. There is always a means for "countless lives to be lost" so long as we live in a mortal world. In a world that has survival of the fittest, which is what she maintains for strength, you will always have power amassing high in places which would allow mass death. Just food for thought. She's still a great teacher for sure. Also great analysis on the exile cutting herself off compared to the Jedi masters not being willing to. To pair with that, all things in the universe are "causal" so there's always a reason. If this were to have occurred in a reality, you might speculate as to the reason. The frequency of force bonding and pain the exile felt on a regular basis, probably conditioned her to be "pain avoidant" when possible. and as so many were dying, the pain was "building" at a slow enough rate to have a choice to either cut herself off or continue letting it get worse. The circumstances themselves really fostered the "right circumstances". That's something I feel Kreia may have missed. The exile wasn't "better", but rather in the right place, right time, right experiences/proclivities, etc. Sort of the one inconsistency I see. Then again maybe she was just speaking to them in their language, as they were definitely trying to operate from moral superiority. It's a pleasure talking to someone who has such experience and interest in the game btw, thanks for your time.

[@davidbridge2118]

This issue reminds me of Code Geauss & Westworld if you haven't seen them, I won't spoil it. But they end with a similar dilemma posed. In the end, if conscious beings can be "free" of something that has a stake in controlling their destiny, is it a better world? A very subjective thing to be sure. We are all reacting on end of a causal spectrum at any point anyway, but the sensation of "freedom" from something that might control you is very important for a sense of "hope" and "autonomy". At the same time we know we are a machine, hence things like psychiatry working so predictably.

[@hsw2201]

great remake

[@PapitoQinn]

Thanks! Although I couldn't actually make a remake like I did with "You Were Afraid." For some reason there were lines missing in my version. So this is really my version of the scene, albeit with a close to, but slightly modified music choices. Still, tell your friends about it.

[@TheArchevil]

But was Kreia right? One thing the game shows is that she's never right. You can spare the masters only to have her kill them (hurt them) or kill them only to have her be disappointed. She knows that nothing is black and white, but even she is still on a path of learning. Though her point about it being better to have people voluntarily agree with your opinion rather than forcing them to, is a diamond in the rough. She was seeking how the Exile came to reject the Force. She expected an ideal Exile who rejected it out of smarts, but came to realize that it was done out of fear. That's why I love Kreia, she is as wise as she is flawed. A human who told others to reject expectations while still holding on to those of her own, which led to her breaking up with the Exile at this part of the game.

[@PapitoQinn]

Technically she didn't really kill the Jedi masters. kzbin.info/www/bejne/iIG4YXuahNOCgbM - I had a really bad mic back then.

[@miklosszabo4551]

She didn't kill the jedi masters, she cut their connection to the force because even after the exile showed them what she considered to be the true lesson of the force they still didn't learn, even more, they utterly refused the message and kept their arrogant ways and since she considered their dogma a threat she demonstrated what true power is to them so they know even if they don't survive it.

[@warriorshedge6772]

@@miklosszabo4551 maybe, i think what she actually did was exactly what she said she's do.. Give them a vision of the full story of revan and exile as a final front to get them to understand there arrogance and ignorance..

[@GayLPer]

"But was Kreia right? One thing the game show is that she's never right." That's the thing. She was never trying to be right. She was trying to turn the Exile into someone that would either destroy the Force, or rebuild the Jedi/Sith in a way that would achieve true freedom. She is always lying. We meet her and she pretends to be a corpse. The moment she gets up, she hides her face. You have few opportunities to surprise her because she is always manipulating you. Even here, I feel, she is manipulating the Exile. She doesn't want the Exile to die. She wants them to *learn*. Even if the lesson she teaches isn't necessarily the words she's speaking.

[@ShaYneHD]

The only bad thing about this scene is that if you side with Vaklu in the game, you will automatically be forced to kill the Jedi and receive this ending, even if you made only LS choices for the entire rest of the game.

[@sargon0141]

Vaklu made a deal with Nihilus, what did you expect? Vaklu is as darkside as possible without being actual Sith. Sorry, but if you make deal with the devil, be prepared to lose your soul.

[@ShaYneHD]

@@sargon0141 Which you know nothing about by the time you reach onderon. He seems a much better and competent leader than the queen, and is therefore the obvious choice for stability. Beeing forced to kill kavar is also not the exiles choice, its something that is forced upon you. I love Kotor2 but you can really feel that they rushed some dialogue options, even in Swtor you had more different outcomes

[@Noxims47314]

yes the actual politics of the planet's specific segment are rather forced and skewed if you want a particular outcome, Onderon is a dilemma in that regard. here we were told we have influence and the means to choose what we conclude to be the best outcome for a world and its government, only to be held in check and called out by the stagnant and steadfast Kavar... giving up Onderon just to spare Kavar a little longer feels like such a people-pleaser's decision that it irks me.

[@sambridgers9543]

9:20 Not to get all political or anything, but I feel like this is a good expression of what many feel after what happened yesterday.

[@silverchairsg]

Holy crap. I have never seen her stab herself before. I guess this is from the Restored Content mod?

[@PapitoQinn]

Yes it is.

[@MaskofPoesy]

Apart from a very restrictive part of Force Unleashed or picking the Imperial forces in Battlefront or something, not many games allow you to have your power fantasy cake. As beautiful as the fact that Kreia doesn't let you eat this cake and tells you what you've actually wrought might be, to do so just to please her, in spite of one's own enjoyment would also fall short of her true teaching. In other words, if you advocate for freedom why are you surprised if some of that freedom is hateful. I don't hate Kavar or Zez Kai El, but letting Vrook enter that chamber always felt wrong.

[@hieronymusboss7705]

LOL this game (and the first one) rely so much on exposition. But they are also examples of how exposition can still be well-written and interesting, even if it's not terribly sophisticated a tactic in and of itself. More people need to fuckin' play KOTOR 2. I always thought THIS game was the direction Star Wars COULD have gone. Really mature and thoughtful writing going on here. Very gloomy and mysterious. Foreboding. It had teeth in a way Star Wars hadn't had since Empire. Instead we got the sequels and the Book of Boba Fett. Star Wars is dead as a popular force. But we still have KOTOR 2.

[@t0ri178]

Book of Boba is just basically the mandalorian 2.5 Lmao. Some of the most interesting episodes in that show isn't even about Boba himself. They should've just let Boba be as ruthless as he was before.

[@hieronymusboss7705]

@@t0ri178 Why they made him a hero/anti-hero is beyond me. I wanted to see Boba silently wasting motherfuckers and collecting credits for 9 episodes. Seriously. How do you fuck that up? XD

[@mhiization]

Think about it this way... Your ambition and hate to kill the Jedi... And draining thier strength... You are Sion AND Nihilus, and Kriea created you as she did them. "Its like Malacor. It's IN you, it's what you are now." Zes-kai Ell.

[@outcastatsabre]

How does she walk away after stabbing herself through the middle of the chest lol

[@Jedi_Spartan]

kzbin.info/www/bejne/oHqrd2uOmpKCbLs

[@Quarter324]

As much as I love this game, there is one thing that bothers me about it. After countless playthroughs, I am always left wondering why the developers did not allow for reasonable means for the player to remain neutral in their morality. Perhaps you could game the system by evenly spreading your dark side and light decisions, however by doing so you would be unable to specialize your class (at least as far as I know). In doing so, your gameplay experience would likely be worse off by playing the game as a neutral character. Such a fact (at least I think it’s a fact; please correct me if I’m wrong) is unfortunate considering how Kotor 2 rightfully criticizes the dogmatic and destructive philosophies associated with the light side and the dark side. Despite this, the gameplay encourages the player to pick between the two moral extremes, and thus pushes the player to reject the games criticism it levies against both moral dogmas because the player is simply trying to optimize their character.

[@PapitoQinn]

The force will reward you for becoming an extremist. It makes you easier to influence. Remaining balanced should be more difficult. The easiest path is the dark side. The harder path is the light side. The hardest path is refusing the force altogether. Try playing the game by purely using human strengths, no force powers whatsoever and you'll see that the force is almost like a drug. It makes things easier but in return you are its slave.

[@EnclaveTrooper1]

@@PapitoQinn I was extremely disappointed by this scene, because I didn't choose any of it. Kavar attacked me and refused to be reasoned with just because I sided with General Vaklu on Onderon, so he had to die. I spared the other masters and they attacked me when I got to Dantooine, so I also had no other choice. Then, Kreia comes and I have six dialogue answers to the question if their death satisfied me. I thought that only one is correct, and I spent like an hour replaying this segment trying to find the "correct" choice, but it turned out that no matter what you pick, she says you're a failure. I felt at the moment like it was the worst game-over screen, because I maxed Kreia's influence and exhausted the dialogue options, and it was disappointing to see it doesn't matter at all. This scene perhaps would make sense for pure dark side playthrough of someone that kills them all (and I see how Kreia might see it as a failure), but for me it just fell flat, and killed my enjoyment of the game. Maybe the developers didn't predict that someone would try to balance the dark and the light, though it's weird given that the game is all about going beyond dark and light. Another disappointment is the lack of possibility to spare Kreia in the end, and the fact that the bond between the exile and her is entirely dismissed. It was supposed to be lethal, but still we're forced to fight her and kill her.

[@EnclaveTrooper1]

Also the ironic thing is that after following a de-facto Dark Side route I have received the Light side power - Jedi Enlightenment.

[@DawningEnd]

​@@EnclaveTrooper1 Arbitrary flags have and always will be a pain in the ass, but when it fails on a gameplay perspective, think of it as one through the established lore. Backing Vaklu was such an obviously antagonistic action as he had support of the Sith, especially after he was the one to inspire open riots in the streets and manipulated reports so those on Onderon believed the Republic had attacked them without provocation, despite no apparent evidence to the claim. Some of the dev team likely figured that if you chose that action, you had no intent to continue with a morally gray spin on things. Even if they didn't intend as much, then you have to look at it through Kavar's eyes, through the eyes of the Jedi. If they take it that you have sided with the Sith after your exile, and think of you as having "fallen" in addition to being a wound in the Force and had thus learned nothing, then they will not be inclined to trade words. Vrook is the worst with this, but Kavar is still true to the dogma himself, enough that he would personally put down even one he considered an old friend if it meant bringing stability back. The only one who shows what is arguably actual sympathy for the Exile that does not merely involve "bringing them back to the light" when on their own was Zez-Kai Ell. A shame that even he turned from a responsible way to view things just because he was once more surrounded by other Masters.

[@Quarter324]

@@PapitoQinn I like your take on this. I never really considered playing Kotor without using force powers. Does the game acknowledge the player's abstinence from the force through its story/dialogue at all?

[@nostalgictitan9076]

The whole game I've been light side until the end I said fuck them Jedi and sith and I regretted killing the Jedi I wish you had option that he turned to the dark side cuz I didn't want to kill I didn't I feel so bad after that

[@Painkiller1189]

Love how there is no right path, in KOTOR 1 it waa clear one path was the answer and the other was just evil But here, if you pick light, you get punished by the council. If you pick dark you get punished by Kreia. There is no fully correct path and that's what I love from this game's writting.

[@harrymurray9702]

I'm on that dark side, they got cookies, bruh.

[@clydejones6900]

NOTHING WILL EVER WALK FROM MALACORE AS me

[@ultracritical2997]

Never seen this cutscene

[@mr.vorrnyvorrn2516]

Perhaps that is why Milo Surik killed Kreia. It is because according to Kreia, he was a complete failure, which wasn’t true. Surik was even able to kill Nihilus and travel to Malachor V, but killing Nihilus and saving Telos IV was not enough. The only way to prove Kreia wrong in her judgment, is killing her. After all, they are both very strong. He couldn’t defeat Vrook without killing him, and killing him was most likely the only other way. That is what blinded Kreia’s judgment.

[@kblargh]

But wait, what do you say to Kreia to make her say you've failed her?

[@PapitoQinn]

It doesn't matter. At the dialogue juncture all the options tells her the same thing. You basically turned into Sion and Nihilus.

[@Th3fac31]

Honestly? After all the lectures Kreia gives you based on your choices especially the incorrect ones I think people like to piss her off to get a dark side ending lecture lol

[@WandaMiddleton-l2t]

Kreaia thank you for all you have taught me and we cradle each other where one is the other will always be there ❤❤❤❤❤I love you my teacher forever ❤❤❤❤love Papatia Quinn your student ❤❤❤❤

[@lifelessperson1993]

She is disappointed yet, she aids you, helps you choose to become a Sith Lord, encourages cooperation with the exchange instead of the Ithorians and would rather the sick die and families sold into chattel slavery. Then lectures of echoes and death of the galaxy. When the galaxy’s reconstruction depended on Telos’ restoration. I appreciate her character but such incongruence should be pointed out. She is still very flawed. That makes her human, but it’s not something attributable to nuance.

[@GayLPer]

She's a liar and a manipulator. Nothing she says, nothing she does, none of her stated motives can be fully trusted. And that's why I love her.

[@paulbeanosdybalhd3102]

I am back in business

[@Oodelally]

I hated Kreia after this

[@PapitoQinn]

How come?

[@Oodelally]

@@PapitoQinn it felt like a betrayal. Throughout the game Kreia is shown to be morally grey and to have a distaste for the Jedi/Jedi masters you are searching for. She is also shown to be a Sith in the past and goes back to the Sith after the attack on Telos. She says it is about “not closing the eyes of your enemy, but making them see through yours” or some quote like that - that she wants to reform the Jedi order instead of destroying it, but when you meet with the masters in a light side play through she cuts them off from the force (causing them to die from shock). Surely if the masters (and other Jedi) were so arrogant, it would be better to rebuild the order and start anew!

[@PapitoQinn]

@@Oodelally And that did happen. Your companions. The lost Jedi as she calls them, rebuilds the Jedi order.

[@ABFan-bj2uj]

Atton: Why Do I Have To Go To Gaol?! Kreia: Because You Don’t Know What A Jedi Is!! Atton: Help! Help!! Get Out Of My Head!!! Kreia: *Betray! Betray!! I Manipulate Your Head So I Betray!!!* Kreia: This Moment Has Taken Some Time… Atris: *Well Hello! Darth Meetra Surik!!/Well Hello! Darth Zekk Vorrn!! My Ex-Boyfriend Who Defied Me!!!* Atris: *I Am Here To Maraud!!!!* Atris: *The Ebon Hawk Is Mine!!!* Meetra: *The Ēbon Hawk Is NOT Yours!* Atris: You Destroyed Peragus!! Meetra: I Am NOT Darth Sion Of The Sith!!!! Meetra: Give Me My Lightsaber! Now!! Atris: Nope! Anyone who holds a lightsaber is a Jedi! Vrook Lamar: I’m Going To Kill You!!! Kavar: Vrook, No!! No!!! Zez-Kai Ell: What Are You Doing?! My Intent Was To Heal Her!! Vrook Lamar: *Help Me Mince Her Or Else I Will Mince You!!!!!!* Meetra: *starts sobbing and screaming for help…* Kreia: Enough! Kreia: You Must Hurt Me Because If You Do NOT Hurt Me, I Will Hurt You! If I Do NOT Hurt You, Then I Will Look Very Bad! Kavar: I thought you were minced to death by Canderous Ordo! Kreia: I Wasn’t! Vrook Lamar: You Are Sith!!! Zez-Kai Ell: She is hard to see. Kreia: You Try To Kill Her, I Try To Kill You!!!!!!!!! Meetra: Thank you, Kreia! I owe you my life! Kreia: *Betray! Betray!! I Manipulate Your Head So I Betray!!!* Kreia: *Tries to crack her pelvis* Meetra: *sobs onto Kavar’s corpse* Tobin: Where Is Vaklu? Kreia: *Betray! Betray!! I Manipulate Your Head So I…* Tobin: Out of my way!!! Kreia: Betray. Kreia: This War Isn’t Over… Hanharr: Time To Die, redhead!! Mira: Nope! Mira: *stabs Hanharr* Mira: My Work here is done! *2 Hours Later* Hanharr: Where is small redhead? Kreia: *Betray! Betray!! I Manipulate Your Head So I Betray!!!* Hanharr: I’m going to Malaqor. Bye!! Hope I find small human redhead there! Atris: Please Kill Me! Kreia: Kill Her! Death Is Mercy! Meetra: *takes her first lightsaber and slices Atris’ head off* Kreia: Well Done! *There Must Always Be a Darth Traya!! One Who’s Role Is To Betray, Like a Darth Sion’s Role Is To Hate, and a Darth Nihilus’ Role Is To Hunger!!!* Meetra: What are you saying? Kreia: Save your bulls*it, Meetra Surik!! These holocrons, Sith or not, contain my philosophies. Kreia Holocrons: *Betray! Betray!! I Manipulate Your Head So I Betray!!!* Darth Sion: Hi Nihilus! Meetra Is Dead! Darth Nihilus: Your eyes betray you Sion, Visas is hunting. Darth Sion: Darth Traya Is Alive! Darth Nihilus: WHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAATTTTTTTTTTTT???!!!!!! Darth Sion: I don’t need you. Darth Nihilus: No Sion, You Need me more than I need Planets eaten. Darth Sion: I have never needed you! Darth Nihilus: >:( Darth Nihilus: *Hunger! Hunger!! Planets Fill My Hunger!!!* Darth Nihilus: *leeches life out of everyone* Nihilus Slave: Lord Nihilus, what’s wrong? Darth Nihilus: *continues feeding to the point where Sion was near dying* Darth Sion: *Hate! Hate!! I Live By Feeding On Hate!!!*