Dealing With RSI Pain and Why I Swapped My Mouse for a Stylus

[@WarrenMarshallBiz]

Do you suffer from pain or discomfort from your years as an artist/programmer/whatever? How do you deal with it? What have you tried? What worked? What DIDN'T work? I'm interested in hearing other people's experiences here...

[@BrentLeBlancCG]

I've switched 4 years ago and didn't look back. I'm way more efficient with the stylus as well.

[@WarrenMarshallBiz]

@@BrentLeBlancCG It's weird. I would never have guessed that would be the case but ... it is! The stylus is a way more efficient way to operate a computer.

[@Bodni]

Hi Marshall, I'm a true lefty and I used to use a mouse on the left side. With same problems as you described. So I decided to use exclusively my stylus, and never looked back since. But the weird right-handed shortcut pressing remained, so I decided to build something... oddly unique. A left handed macro keypad prototype. I used a Logitech G13 as a base, a G600 mouse ( a heavily modified one, just for it's macro key-s and wheeler button for my right thumb ) and an extra 24 button macro keypad. I will upload the end result soon :)

[@StoanPhrogg]

Great video Warren! I'm 27 and have been an amateur level designer for 15 years. Since starting a job in graphic design the mouse has really started to hurt my forearm. I have smaller hands so most vertical mice just moved the pain to my fingers. A small drawing tablet has been my go-to for most things now (I find the absolute positioning really saves time too). When I play games, I use a mouse with a partial but not vertical angle - more precise. Do you think a larger tablet helps more, since you'd be doing more movement with your entire arm? I use the side button on my pen to right click, but it strains my thumb a little. Perhaps a program to let you left click using ctrl/alt and a tap from the pen would be better. Fortunately never had carpal tunnel symptoms. I think my problem begins in the shoulder or elbow. Slowly been learning how to massage and exercise (surprising side benefit - it's made my hands more flexible!) but I don't think I'll ever be as invincible as I was as a teen. Really helpful to hear you sharing your experiences here and to know others have been through similar things.

[@Yokain7]

How do you deal with your keyboard / keyboard specific hotkeys? I find that the tablet kind of dominates my desk set up and I usually find my hand wrapping around behind the tablet to reach keys. It's definitely uncomfortable. When I'm using ZBrush it's fine because so much of the program is left-side focused and a lot of actions can be done without the keyboard at all. However, when typing or dealing with modeling tools like max / blender, key access is pretty important to me. Any ideas? Also, you said trackballs never clicked with you. Did you try Kensington Ergonomic versions? Additionally, you could always try the new kensington vertical trackball.

[@WarrenMarshallBiz]

Well, I use a medium size Wacom which fits pretty neatly on my desk or lap. If you have something larger, or one of those huge cintiqs, yeah, getting to the keyboard can be a challenge! And that trackball DOES look nice. I might give it a go one day, thanks!

[@ChristianBischoff79]

Thank you for the interesting video and for describing your pain, which I have, too. What is the name of your stylus/device?

[@WarrenMarshallBiz]

It's a Wacom Intuos 4 Medium.

[@ChristianBischoff79]

@@WarrenMarshallBiz Thank you. Meanwhile I bought a Wacom Intuus Pro S and an Airbrush Pen because this pen is very thick and I think it is ergonomically better than thin pens.

[@Belidos3D]

I've suffered from RSI for a few years now and i totally agree with most of this, it really makes a difference, i haven't switched to full time pen yet because i play a lot of games as well as doing my 3D work, but i have switched to a vertical mouse which as really helped a lot, and the reason it works is because of the position of your hand. With RSI it's not so much how much you use the mouse, although that does factor, the thing that effects RSI the most is the position of your hand when using a standard mouse, manipulating objects with your hand flat out in front of you is not a natural position for the hand, the natural position of the hand can be seen every time you drop your hand and relax, it's palm to hip, when using a mouse you are effectively holding your hand rotated 90 degrees for long periods of time, which your muscles and nerves does not like. With a vertical mouse and a pen you are holding them in a far more natural position without the strain of rotation, it's even more effective when using a pen because an even more natural position for a hand is for the first two fingers and the thumb to be lightly pressed together when relaxed, which is why the pen works a lot better to prevent RSI for most people, but if you catch it early a vertical mouse is more than enough to stop the damage from happening, i'd always recommend at least a vertical mouse for anyone who uses computers for long periods, it's just common sense. Another factor to look into is your seating position, for a more natural position you need to be able to rest your wrist on your desk with your forearm perfectly horizonal and your back straight, with your feet flat to the floor (or a foot rest if you're a shorty like me), a simple thing like seating posture really makes a huge difference, not just on your RSI but on your back and lumbar area too. A sit/stand desk really helps too, it's amazing how comfortable standing at your desk while working can be, but always make sure you have a chair as well so you can alternate, it's not good for you to be standing at a desk for too long either.

[@TheReloader]

What exactly causes your pain when using a traditional mouse? The way you have to hold it? The movement? Button clicking?

[@WarrenMarshallBiz]

More than anything, really, just moving it around and keeping my arm in that position for extended periods of time. The shoulder will start aching and it just cascades from there. Sitting with the art tablet in my lap is a much more relaxed and natural thing and feels fine.

[@labeeb2067]

I need help with this, as much as I want to use the stylus it actually hurts my shoulder after 5 minutes of work, guess what I need to know is how to sit while using it, where to place it on the table and stuff like that. I am using xp pen deco 01 v2 which is a 10 inch tablet. Thanks.

[@esparafucio]

Hey Warren, what are your wacom pen buttons mapped to? I've felt my hand tired before from modelling for too long and would be willing to give the workflow a go.

[@WarrenMarshallBiz]

Sure ... Basically the tip itself is left click, the bottom most button is middle click, and the button above that is right click. I don't use the eraser end of the pen, nor any of the buttons on the tablet itself.

[@nssSmooge]

@@WarrenMarshallBiz Do you use mouse mode or pen mode?

[@WarrenMarshallBiz]

@@nssSmooge Pen mode ...

[@AndreaCantelli]

I'm young ( 24 this year ), i have been doing modeling and cg in general for 4 years and 2 years ago i started getting wrist pain. I was using a Razer Deathadder mouse. I tried the stylus but it isn't really my thing so i bought a vertical mouse and it's fantastic. I can model for hours without any pain and the wrist is always rested. I also made my setup fully ergonomic ( chair, monitor, keyboard with wrist rest etc. ) because health is the number 1 priority in everything you do. Money returns, health not so much.

[@WarrenMarshallBiz]

Glad you found something that works. I've tried vertical mice but they just don't feel good to me. But everyone is different and as long as your set up works for you, damn everything else. Comfort and health are critical in this line of work.

[@AndreaCantelli]

@@WarrenMarshallBiz True story, luckily nowadays there are a lot of ergonomics products to choose from to fit different needs.

[@AndreaCantelli]

@Tea And Crumpets! I use a CSL vertical mouse and for the keyboard i use a Razer Ornata Chroma with wrist rest. The mouse is fantastic and costs only 20 € and the keyboard i don't recommend it because Razer suck ( bad quality build ) and it's overpriced. It's comfy but there is better out there at a cheaper price. I recommend the Perixx Periduo or Perixx Periboard keyboard, the Periduo also has a vertical mouse so you get both or you can get the Microsoft Sculpt Ergonomic but it's wireless only i think. For the vertical mouse use a flat large mat without wrist rest because it will get in your way.

[@hibernatus40]

Cool Tip Warren. But after 10 hours of sitting, my ass hurts more than my hand. What can one do about that?

[@senjos]

Buy a height adjustable desk. Standing is good. This is also good for the neck.

[@WarrenMarshallBiz]

Haha, yeah, sit-to-stand desk might be an option as Josef mentioned. Also, I've seen people sitting on big inflatable balls and such. I've never tried that but they swear by it ...

[@hibernatus40]

Thanks guys. Search continues... kzbin.info/www/bejne/jWSxdIKAmcplb8U kzbin.info/www/bejne/oamTlGmAfLmli7M

[@xroman_]

I heard some things about carpal tunnel being the issue for long time pc users/guitarists but I couldn't even think that it might be that bad. Well, I'm only 19 so I guess I'll have my fun experience with it later :) I tried using a tablet over a mouse for 2 months. After a week all windows and modelling related tasks became just as fast and efficient as using a mouse. But still, lack of mouse wheel is the only reason I went back for the mouse. Everytime I had to drop my pen, scroll mouse wheel and grab the pen again and it was just too slow and annoying. The left-sided mouse sounds really cool so I can hold my pen and still use mousewheel. Definitely going to try that!

[@WarrenMarshallBiz]

Well, if you're 19, then you can start doing things to prevent future pain early enough that you might avoid it altogether. Congrats on thinking about this stuff early. It'll pay off long term, trust me.

[@WizardReel]

At my day job I alternate to a side track ball type mouse. I'm not as fast with it, but it has helped with RSI. I think for software like Substance Painter, or Photoshop, a Stylus would work better.

[@WarrenMarshallBiz]

I tried a trackball like that (ball on the thumb) but I was never able to fully get comfortable with it. I know it works great for some people tho.

[@iamram93]

Hey Warren good video. How do you handle precise clicks with a stylus? I've tried using a stylus but I keep making small selection boxes by accident just clicking. Heres a gif of me just trying to click to select multiple faces etc. us.v-cdn.net/5021068/uploads/editor/fk/adt48v7ryykz.gif

[@WarrenMarshallBiz]

I'm not entirely sure what's happening that gif but I don't really have any problems selecting things. One thing I'll say is that I set my Wacom to "click with tap" not the weird "click with hover" functionality. I find that gives me all the precision I need.

[@kendarr]

I don't have pain in my right hand, Stylus is very wierd for me (never was very fund of writing), what pains me from time to time is my left hand, don't know why tho... I do have a mechanical keyboard btw

[@senjos]

I had that...after switching to a Wacom Cintiq Pro it's gone after a few weeks...

[@WarrenMarshallBiz]

Yep, I know it doesn't work for everyone but it definitely worked for me. And you apparently!

[@Smoluck]

Thanks for sharing this miss and underestimate topic jn CG Arts.

[@WarrenMarshallBiz]

I think it affects a lot more people than we think. It's just that people don't want to talk about it ...

[@A-n-t-o-n-y]

Well, I agree that a stylus could be more efficient than a mouse, especially with 3-5 buttons. However , mouses with >20buttons, like Logitech G600, are just bests in terms of speed.

[@WarrenMarshallBiz]

Welll, 1 button or 50 buttons, I'm still out. My shoulder won't allow it. :)

[@rufus8800]

has anyone tried the Tap Strap, either the 1 or the 2? (www.tapwithus.com/) I've been considering it but not sure how well it integrates with our kind of work?

[@WarrenMarshallBiz]

I have literally never heard of that but it looks cool ... very futuristic ...

[@xNIMZx1]

i'm surprised by this because for me it doesn't matter what i use stylus or mouse, id even go as far to say i can go longer without pain using my vertical mouse. But regardless of the device my wrists kill me and I'm only fing 26, its infuriating.

[@xNIMZx1]

@@cerebrosgames Interesting thanks for the tips ill give it a shot.

[@WarrenMarshallBiz]

That sucks, sorry to hear it's hitting you so early. Definitely try enforcing breaks throughout the day. I generally have a timer running and I stop to walk around and stretch out my wrist/hands every 20-25 minutes or so. Once you get into the habit, it helps a lot.

[@xNIMZx1]

@@WarrenMarshallBiz Hmm ill defiantly try to get in the habit of that, Thanks for the tip.