Dear authors + readers... grimdark edition

[@mattkean1128]

This was a nice mediation between the author and reader. Expectations have such a strong effect on our experience, or prevent the experience altogether.

[@bookswithzara]

Thanks Matt. Completely agree as well.

[@esmayrosalyne]

Oooh I really like this little twist on it, with you also addressing readers. Super great topics, and I honestly wholeheartedly agree with everything you said (boring as that may be lol). You never fail to deliver some great food for thought 🤍

[@bookswithzara]

@@esmayrosalyne thanks a lot Esmay!

[@jcmberne]

You've crushed my dream of writing a super dark band-comes-together-to-pull-off-a-heist fantasy.

[@bookswithzara]

😂

[@liviajelliot]

I think violence for the sake of violence is one of the things that frustrate me the most; I enjoy reading dark/grimdark, but there has to be a reason for it. There are so many other ways in which something can be grimdark that does not require violence as the sole mean. I honestly through the band-on-a-mission was more of a fantasy thing, rather than exclusively grimdark, tbh. Regarding the swearing, I used to think the same until I watched AP Canavan's video-lecture on swearing and realised there is so much more to it; I think that my problem with swearing in fantasy (in general) is that it almost always feels anachronistic and it takes me out of the immersion. Women in grimdark warrants a sole video discussing that, in my humble opinion--but your point still stands; sometimes characters (just like people) have layers, and it takes time (pages) to develop them fully. Great video!

[@bookswithzara]

Exactly on the violence point! The band on a mission thing is definitely not exclusively grimdark. I’ve just noticed more recent grimdark books have this trope. I’ve always associated swearing with when I was in school and all the supposedly cool kids would swear for the sake of it and it kind of lost its meaning, if that makes sense? Like I just found it really dumb. So when I see it done excessively in books I can’t help but think about that. Agreed that the topic of women in grimdark needs a whole video! I may do one but need to think of the right angles. Thanks for these great comments, Livia! Always a joy to speak to you.

[@BookishVicky]

You sold me on 'The Winter Road'; I'm adding it to my ever-growing tbr. 100% agree that it's easy to tell when authors use violence/swearing just for shock's sake and it's cringey.

[@bookswithzara]

Yessss! It’s so so good, Vicky!

[@sasapejcin3568]

So insightful! Amazing video Zara.Grimdark is my jam!😁😉

[@bookswithzara]

YES! We love grimdark here!

[@samcostello2861]

I agree with you wholeheartedly about how the excessive use of violence for the sake of shock value can be very distasteful. That's what turned me off from watching Game of Thrones.

[@HistoritorJimaldus]

Great video, always good to hear you talk Bakker :) I’d be very interested to see you touch on Warhammer and the origins of grimdark! And to get your thoughts on Night Lords of course!! ;)

[@bookswithzara]

Thank you :) you got it! I will do that for sure. I’ve head the Night Lords omnibus on my shelves for so long. It’s so chunky though!!

[@OnlyTheBestFantasyNovels]

I stopped actively looking for and reading grimdark books when I realized most of what I was trying at the time suffered from most of the issues you've pegged here. I just feel like a lot of those authors have gotten so wrapped up in writing about their uber warriors and their gore that they've completely missed the point about what will truly be some of the darkest moments the average reader will face. Like you touch on, Abercrombie and Bakker are very much grimdark but the violence is mild in their books compared to what some folks try to do in the pursuit of "realism". Granted, it's been a long time since I really looked at what's the latest in that subgenre, so hopefully it got better since those early days.

[@bookswithzara]

10000%. The most impactful grimdark, I’ve found, is when the violence is minimal.

[@Thecatladybooknook_PennyD]

Yes yes yes on this!! Esp on "morally gray" characters. Just admit you don't want to read that...vs saying "people aren't like that." YES WE ARE!!

[@bookswithzara]

EXACTLY!!

[@billybilodeau1991]

"Evil begins when you begin to treat ppl as things" Pratchett. I don't mind the violence. I mean I love Hollywood movies that are filled with it and they're not grimdark. To me it's grimdark when the characters, especially the "protagonist", uses ppl as things. The reason there's such harsh realities in these books is because of that way of thinking. Which is the probably the point behind good grimdark.

[@bookswithzara]

Interesting point and I agree with you to an extent! Same as you, I don’t mind violence but I think grimdark and violence are conflated too much at times!

[@billybilodeau1991]

Yeah I’d agree with that. It’s what first popped into my head of what Grimdark was, when I first heard of it. SPOILERS for “The Company” The part in the company when Kunessin and his men plot to take the gold, lives and freedoms from their indentured servants instead of a truly fair share of the gold. Gold which that the servants in fact found…on an island Kunessin in fact stole, that was grimdark. There was no violence, maybe stronge implications of violence, but none really done.

[@SarahJ70]

Your point about violence is spot on! I am not a big fan of pointless violence and more interested in how it affects the characters than the actual violence itself. I’ve read some grim dark that adds a lot of gore for shock value but feels empty because the characters aren’t compelling and the aftermath of the violence is not explored deeply. I think Joe Abercrombie’s upcoming book is about a band of misfits travelling together if I’m not mistaken, definitely a trope I don’t love, but maybe that story will be an exception for me! One of my anticipated reads of next year

[@bookswithzara]

Totally agree! It has to be relevant to the characters or the broader world otherwise it feels empty (which is the perfect word for it). I’m a bit nervous about the Abercrombie book for this exact reason. Hopefully it’s a win for both of us!

[@SarahJ70]

@@bookswithzarayeah the human aspects are very important to me. That’s why Poppy War didn’t work for me, the violence was there, but it felt too rushed and didn’t have many nuanced characters I really like how violence is depicted in Sympathy for Mr Vengeance for instance. It’s a film, not a fantasy grim dark, but still a very good example of how to showcase violence without being over the top or sacrificing the human elements

[@thatsci-firogue]

A tendency I often see when people discuss Grimdark, is the mislabelling and conflation of Nilhism and Existentialism. Yes there's overlap, but there is a difference and there's multiple interpretations and schools of thought for both philosophies.

[@bookswithzara]

Completely agree with you

[@joshyaks]

My only experience with grimdark is Abercrombie, and I would argue that classic fantasy authors like Tolkien glorify violence more than Abercrombie does. (And I appreciated your final point about fun and escapism!)

[@bookswithzara]

I can definitely see that! Thanks Josh!

[@MoeWanders]

Damn, what a fantastic video 👌

[@bookswithzara]

@@MoeWanders thanks Moe!

[@EricMcLuen]

Random thoughts. Violence does not equal grimdark. A lot of walking and talking in Bakker. Grimdark does not require violence - can argue Liveship Traders as an example. All characters are morally gray so just stop using the term. Would say in Aspect Emperor, the female characters are a lot more compelling than the males.

[@bookswithzara]

Agreed. I replied to another comment saying that the most impactful grimdark I’ve read had minimal violence.

[@Shelf_Improvement]

I'd like to see a heist video like this 👍🏼

[@bookswithzara]

@@Shelf_Improvement you got it!