Death of a Game: Darkfall Online

Why did Darkfall Online fail?
(Skip Intro 2:04)
Referral Link for Rise of Agon: www.darkfallris...
www.darkfallne...
Big thanks to my new editor on this video :) (Tom Davies MVP)
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#DOAG

[@nerdSlayerstudioss]

Darkfall New Dawn launches in less than a week. Check out the website to see changes, many of the problems I outlined are seeming to be remedied (well not the conversation of content/population YET). This might be our last chance to make this game work guys. darkfallnewdawn.com/

[@Hytekdk]

Will you be playing DnD?

[@nerdSlayerstudioss]

Yes. I am already playing.

[@Hytekdk]

nerdSlayer Cool 👍 What clan? I am in Lux Arcana.

[@Ducecannon]

Char name?

[@Hytekdk]

Ducecannon Hytek Supremacy

[@BillPairaktaridis]

I've actually met the Greek Darkfall guys here in Greece, during a Greek Game Developers' conference. The producer, Tasos, seemed quite arrogant, claiming their game was state of the art and had millions of players, when it looked severely outdated even in 2008...

[@VergilDarkslayer]

Still better that anthem

[@gachi2059]

@@trashsombra2793 nah it was good

[@ElevatedBanana]

I've also met him a couple of times through my line of work. I wasn't aware that he was a game developer but almost immediately I could tell that the guy was full of shit. I couldn't take him seriously.

[@SonniTheDog]

It was state of the art in 2008…

[@shalj4604]

​@@SonniTheDog i feel bad for ppl who never played it. ahead of its time, nothing like it still to this day.

[@reanimatedfish]

I have legit never heard of this game before. This is fascinating, thanks for digging in.

[@reanimatedfish]

@roxoto thank you, internet stranger.

[@trinitysoul]

I saw a video talking about the developers and the community attacking euro gamer a while back ago from another youtuber

[@VintageNarwhal]

I never got to play it when I was younger but I craved it

[@Broockle]

@@VintageNarwhal it was k

[@Josh.1234]

You guys missed out.. it was crazy the first year and then just went downhill. The crazier part is no one has created a game similar to this yet.

[@mattgray666]

I had a darkfall fan site that sold subscriptions, technically profitable, but not worth the time. Definitely the brittle nature of it all is what made it so exciting. I mostly played as a solo player, living in constant fear of larger PK kill squads rampaging across the land, fueled by their exploity-guild infrastructure. The David-vs-Goliath analogy perfectly described my relationship with the game. There were lots of low-value targets a small band of players could assault. No guild could be everywhere, and in the those tiny dark crevices of Agon, small-scale combat and serial-killing was alive and well, silhouetted against the server-shattering wars that made the headlines. Sadly, it did feel like a big empty world ruled by cheaters. Solo players, "sheep like me" if you will, had to work twice as hard to get mediocre equipment, only to lose it to somebody who clearly didn't even need it. So many great memories. I remember one time I was solo-pking in the mahirim lands when a band of 3 mounted guys attacked me. I led them on a chase that stretched all the way back to the safety of the Dwarven capital. It was the most intense experience I have ever had in a videogame. Being a hair's breadth from losing all my gear for over 30 minutes of constant running past spawns and through hostile player towns. In the end, they pushed their mounts so hard to keep up with me that two of their mounts died, and in a crazy maneuver I managed to steal the last guy's mount and escape, using some random dude in the world who was mining in the wrong place at the wrong time as a distraction. My hands were cold, sweaty, shaking, and my heart was going a mile a minute. Immensely satisfying. RIP Darkfall.

[@ivan2795]

Hahaha xD Wow dude, that's badass! Have you tried Darkfall New Dawn?

[@ValensBellator]

Had a ton of fun for a short stretch with Hyperion, but yeah, there were just a lot of problems and the player base died so quickly

[@romchompa6858]

Had many similar experiences in this game myself. SO visceral was the feeling, not like any game I've ever played, before or since.

[@dorpth]

Sounds like the high stakes PVP of EVE Online. Except that game's UI has all the thrills of staring at an air traffic control screen. :\

[@dinkleberg684]

So basically you lived in the Balkans

[@nerdSlayerstudioss]

Sorry for the typo, fell asleep at the wheel boys. But hopefully everyone enjoys the upgrade in quality. Thank our new editor Tom Davies for that. He's the man, and we will have more like this coming. Me trying out an editor is why I took so long to make this specific one. Thanks for the patience and hopefully it was worth.

[@Petertunes]

Thanks man I love these death of a game videos and glad you put a lot of time into this one!

[@DarkKnightNomeD]

Darkfall is back - Look up Darkfall New Dawn and Darkfall Rise of Agon - also Darkfall Unholy Wars has been bought up as well. :)

[@AutumnWind92]

Lol watch the video first

[@randomusernameCallin]

I think the new look is good and stand outs. It took a good ideal and step it up a bit.

[@Supernerdland]

He did a great job!

[@nerdSlayerstudioss]

I have heard some concerns over the New Dawn portion of my video, just so people know. I chose to barely go into the details between the game, and the philosophies of both versions of the game. If you want to have a better understanding of both, please just go to either games websites and read their road-maps. A good start for New Dawn would be here. darkfallnewdawn.com/2016-06-21-what-is-new-in-new-dawn/ And for ROA check this one out www.darkfallriseofagon.com/game/development/early-access-road-map-2017/

[@sehrgrossesglied5000]

no worries, might tend a bit in RoA's direction but your presentation is still balanced (I play DND). the video is a pretty nice watch all in all:)

[@yuripantyhose4973]

Can you please do death of a game of Pathfinder Online? it was basically going to be the same as Darkfall and they actually got pretty far with development but Ryan Dancey starting hating on pvp and wanting the game to go in a pve/consensual combat direction which ruined the fanbase and made their forums toxic as people were ripped off from them paying/preorder for a pvp freedom game but getting pve instead after they had paid $40-1000 or more for it.

[@Kuvajokeri]

Pathfinder Online would be interesting to hear about, yeah, although I don't quite agree with your analysis on it's death being due to "Ryan Dancey beginning to dislike PVP at some point in time." There's a lot to go about in there, like the use of a tabletop IP with a game that had little to do with tabletop-like play, which left a sour taste in the mouth of many a fan of the Pathfinder franchise. It was also part of the first wave of crowdfunded MMOs as far as I can remember.

[@yuripantyhose4973]

+Kuvajokeri you have good points, but being a part of the community it was after Ryan Dancey started censoring pvp advocates and really started to push consensual pvp as the core gameplay of player interaction and combat that the forums and all "faith" in the game died. Though you are right, its probably not the main reason, but I don't think it helped to alienate at least half of the already dedicated player base.

[@luckyyang7173]

The original UO is being remade by two former Mythic devs who worked on the franchise. It's in Alpha currently and will be coming out on Steam beta in 3 months. All the old school sandbox mechanics of UO are implemented. Here's an in depth review. m.kzbin.info/www/bejne/jmqXoJ57ZbKUbpI

[@Dreznin]

I was part of the beta and can tell you those glowingly positive comments were cherry picked off their closed forums - the game was a hot mess during beta and they were rushing it out the door in a state that was more akin to an alpha than a beta, much less a fully finished game. FFS, they launched the game with races that were incomplete - the Mahirim were missing their increased move speed mode and at the time they couldn't use mounts, as dropping to all fours was supposed to replace the need for mounts (like early versions of Tauren in WoW's beta). The game went through years of sketchy press and horribly managed development, then released before being anywhere near ready. On top of that, as mentioned, their order servers couldn't handle more than a handful of orders and crashed horribly. I had obsessed over the game when I first learned of it back in 2003, gave up around 2006 since it had been in perpetual development so long, then got super hyped again when the beta fired up and my clan got invites... The entire clan had quit within the first two months of launch. All that hype for so much disappointment.

[@ValensBellator]

Yeah I received one of the beta keys they gave Hyperion clans as well and I have no idea what they were talking about. There were tons of issues across the board and the game seemed far from launch ready.

[@Josh.1234]

House shivering beta player here, I loved it but the criticism is spot on. Just the feature set and physics driven pvp was so rich, there was no other game to go to.

[@bellacose3837]

I know the reason I quit was because certain groups (TM, LOD, etc) got caught cheating over and over and over but never even got a slap on the wrist because they had connections to AV. Meanwhile dudes in my guild who pushed TM out of certain bugged spawns got the hammer for doing the same thing to try to catch up.

[@frawgenstein8522]

I love hearing about MMO's. Everything about your episodes are great. I started playing MMO's back during Asherons Call. I've played most of the ones you have talked about so far. Still waiting on some of the other games I've played to be done by you. Thanks Nerdslayer for giving me something I never knew I needed.

[@ancerion2377]

Love this series! Wonderful high quality content! One of my most recommended KZbin Channels!

[@Baleur]

This game had the WORST community forums i can remember Lol It was like the ninth circle of hell when you logged in there. People think WoW forums are bad, they have no idea.

[@probablystoned]

Ahh yea you mean ForumFall. Lmao i knew so many people who all they did was talk shit on that lol.

[@TheBearThatReads]

Solid stuff. Amusingly enough UO had an era of brokenly strong wizards or halberd in plate. While I don't like how UO solved those issues in the long run they at least recognized the problem. Darkfall had and has potential.

[@michaeltyers7336]

Biggest issues with Darkfall: - People who like the PvP generally don't like the grind - probably 33%, who leave - People who like the PvE grind generally don't like the full loot - probably another 33%, who also leave - People who like full loot generally don't like the grind either - probably another 33% - The people who like the PvP, the full Loot, and don't mind the grind, are like 1% people. People who liked the FPS elements generally didn't like the grind. People who liked the RPG elements frequently weren't good at FPS. It's the result of a hybrid genre game. An arena shooter (Quake/Unreal style) based on Darkfall would probably sell a tonne of copies.

[@itsadoozy]

One of my most memorable gaming moments occurred within this game! I'm a bit late in seeing this, lol; but, great video. :) I never would have known about this game until a friend in high school told me about it, back in 2009-2010-ish, sometime after the NA launch. There didn't seem to be very much marketing for it going around, at the time, from what I remember; but, my friend seemed to imply that they preferred spreading by word of mouth anyway, for whatever reason. (Now, I know, it was due to lack of publisher, mismanagement, and silence from devs, lol.) Regardless, I'd had very little chance to play this game before it died. There was a free trial or something that allowed me to dip my toes into it, and IIRC its cost model was similar to that of WoW, in that you paid a typical $45/60-or-so to buy the game and then paid a monthly subscription to continue playing it. I didn't have much money at the time - being a high school student - nor a decent PC, so all I got to experience was the few hours a day I managed during the trial. (I also found it hard to justify the cost in general, when my friends and I already played WoW, etc., especially considering the clunky UI and the general lack of polish, overall.) But, those too-few hours of experience of the game have managed to stick with me throughout the years! Sadly, when I'd later returned with a little more money, time, and desire to play, it had already shuttered its doors and moved on to Unholy Wars. Having seen all the backlash about Unholy Wars at the time - both about how they turned promised updates into a separate, new game, and then just Aventurine being vile in general, I steered clear of it. Anyway, on to the memory. So, late one night, I was trying to work on one of the first few quests I'd had available to me, while learning the game. I was playing a wolf-dude and was out in the middle of some woods featuring the slightly rolling hills and large boulders and such that you see in some of the clips in this video. I was in a sort-of ditch, in the shadow of some large boulder, and I think I'd just killed something or ran across a grave, which I was looting. Suddenly, a bolt of some magic spell or something whizzed by and splashed down near me! Looking in the direction it came from for the source, I spotted someone charging up another spell standing atop the boulder looming over me, flanked by another player nocking an arrow to their bow, and a third drawing their weapon. Realizing that these folks figured it was wolf season, I quickly reacted, bolting in a random direction to avoid the next flurry of magic and arrows! New as I was, I knew that they could not chase me while attacking nearly as fast as I could move in a full-on sprint, and so I ran, bobbing and weaving, taking cover around and behind trees, and so on. After a few moments of this cat-and-mouse, and having gained a little distance, I glanced back and noticed that the third hunter had gotten on their mount and was catching back up to us very quickly. There was no way I could outrun them forever - especially, having already taken a hit or two from one of their volleys - so, I started to get desperate. For once, though, luck was on my side! Ahead, a person-height boulder interrupted my path. Jumping over the boulder and breaking line of sight, rather than continuing to run, I got as close as I could to the opposite side of the boulder, nestling myself into the slight concave curve of it, surrounded by small shrubbery and - more importantly - shadows. Then, I used the 'sit' emote, shrinking my large wolfy form down quite a bit, just perfectly managing to curl-up into the majority of the shadow, and hoped my gray fur blended in with the boulder well-enough - having also quickly removed my armor, after sitting. (For those who don't already know: in this game, players don't have names floating over their heads, nor icons on the minimap; so, stealth is truly a matter of just playing stealthily - naturally colored armor, moving slowly and quietly, blending in with cover and concealment, using the shadows, etc. New as I was, here I was, attempting to take advantage of just this!) Then, heart pumping, I waited... Given the way the camera worked, I could not get a good third-person view of things, with the boulder to my back; so, I sat there in first-person view, knowing I was a goner if they simply stopped and looked right at me. I knew they weren't far behind, either, because a bolt of arrow and/or magic had whizzed overhead as I'd vaulted the boulder and dropped behind it; and, I didn't have to wait long, as the mounted player ran right on by, around the side of the boulder, and continued on ahead, searching this way and that. Yesss - one had been duped! Another hunter then vaulted the boulder overhead, similarly to me, and landed just a few feet in front of me...and they, too, continued onward, probably assuming that their mounted friend had lost me further ahead. In that moment, I was the weirdest mix of giddy and frightened, but I daren't move or celebrate just yet, as, atop the boulder, I could hear the third player - the sorcerer, probably - above and behind me, pacing back and forth. In my stilled mind, like a deer in headlights, I just KNEW that, any second, he was going to look down and see me, or that the others - who were searching left and right, now, suspecting that I was hiding somewhere - would regroup right there and eventually notice the oddly-shaped rock in the shadows... But, after minutes that felt like an eternity, the third player finally leapt from the boulder and continued onward, linking back up in the search with his comrades. Letting out a huge sigh of relief, I waited until all three were looking away before standing up and creeping back the way we came, gaining enough distance from them to settle down, collect myself, and log off. (IIRC there was a log-off timer and you couldn't combat-log, in this game, so I couldn't just do that, earlier.) Somehow, some way, I'd managed to fool three player-killers and give them the slip in one of the oldest-school, most cartoonish ways - and got away with it! I vividly remember this scenario as it played out, to this day, and it'll probably always stick with me. It's a shame that I got to spend so little time with Darkfall; but, it was really, probably, for the best, seeing how things eventually transpired. Hope someone enjoys my silly little story!

[@Staki6908]

Hey I know you mostly just do MMO's, but you should really check out WarZ (Zombie survival game) It had a terrible failing story and the guy running it was a real con artist and shithead. Enjoyed this epidsode. I stayed away from Darkfall after I heard too many bad things about it and the original graphics were too hard for me to look past, but sounds like you had a good bit of fun in the first one at least!

[@Spills51]

Hmmm...Warz was never big enough to follow suit of these vids. If it was it didn't make it but a few wks with any real popularity. Just a scam game which isn't exactly the types he is talking about here.

[@minilabyrinth]

I really enjoy playing these videos in the background while I do work on my computer, thanks so much for making these, I will always be intrigued by MMOs

[@BladeBloodreaver]

I loved Darkfall! Former member of eXile Corp, of the Coalition of the Chilling. Best moment in gaming was the CotC vs Hyperion Kingdom. Holy shit was that epic. After hyperion fell, the rise of The Mercs and Afghan that tore apart Coalition of the Chilling... so epic. For a time after the disintigration of CotC, we managed to buy a city on Rubayat (something like that), we spent about a 2 months there, building up forces, creating a new alliance and getting ready to invade the mainland again. But then summer holidays hit, all leadership went on vacation and the GL promoted someone he trusted... Only for his to sell all our cities to the enemy, kicking everyone from the guild before hand. As a result, everyone got scattered with only their own bank for things. Basically it made everyone quit or find a new guild. It was sad for it to end that way, but it was also a perfect end in a way to a awesome adventure that i will never forget. DarkFall as a game; 6/10 as an experience: 10/10.

[@sagittalaxis7574]

YOU BROUGHT BACK SO MANY BITTERSWEET MEMORIES. I waited years for this to release to only be substantially upset with how the NA launch went. I remember I couldn't leave the city without getting ganked so I pretty much rage quit considering it was hard enough to get the armor and skills that I had.

[@redrick7369]

It's not the Open PvP that killed the game, but more the hardcores. They're not bad themselves but building a game for the hardcore players will eventually reduce it to just that part of the community. You end up with a massive skill gap and people will give up. Eventually, well what happened to Darkfall happens. I remember hearing about the game, being interested until I looked closer, because I heard about it after it was already out. A game like that is just very hard to do, and I have no idea how a team could pull it off myself.

[@BeyondDaX]

I know right? Only the hardcore fanbase would like this game. Which kinda like games like APB can florish in that game while new people will get brushed aside

[@theswordoftheguardnop2370]

NO, what happened is that Darkfall doesn't have skill cap or camouflage skills... Is a predator's game without the main skill for depredation.

[@DrTssha]

So basically, a neocon model of "Git Gud" or "Git Purged". :)

[@Whatever4690]

The mob spawns were unprotected and noobs had little chance of escaping from 3-4 high level pkers, locked dungeons for groups or some kind of early warning system that worked might of helped. But then the mobs in the game were terrible, pve wasn't fun.

[@roqsteady5290]

People love full looting, perma death and all that stuff... but only when they are not the ones getting looted and ganked. So likely u will run out of rabbits sooner rather than later. Really the whole premise for this type of game is flawed.

[@Cowbell_Hero]

Forumfall... Oh my, that was good part of my teens all the way up into early adulthood. It was a shitfest honestly, but it was our shitfest. The game? Wish it never happend.

[@fireknight187]

Great video as always, game devs should watch it to prevent the same mistakes. You did a great job of researching all the things.

[@shawnsdservice]

Old Darkfall player here. I subbed and used your ref. And put nerdSlayer in the box where it asks how I found them. I loved all your death of a game videos so far and this one is especially cool since Darkfall managed to create such lasting memories for me. Hopefully you can keep doing these for another 10 years so I can see your Death of a Game video about WoW.

[@almalone3282]

yaok WoW is nowhere near dead didn't they have a expansion come out like a few months ago?

[@shawnsdservice]

that's why I said TEN years from now.

[@ItsRawdraft2]

To put into perspective how relevant Darkfall Online was,I'm Greek and I live pretty close to the Aventurine building and I learned that they are a game company just now.

[@Wolfsheim23]

Just shows you're not much of a gamer. Surely not with MMO's.

[@ryuno2097]

You probably didn't follow the updates/news around this game/company back when it was hot and new.

[@ItsRawdraft2]

@@ryuno2097 Holy shit the necroposting! It was covered on some of the biggest KZbin channels in Greece and it got its own spot at Gameathlon, a Greek gaming convention. Thing is, the building always looked like it was operated by a skeleton crew with a mostly empty parking lot. Basically Darkfall got white hot over here for a while and then fizzled out fast.

[@JeremyBaconThe1st]

Me too

[@JeremyBaconThe1st]

It's near golden hall

[@Adragim]

Forumfall was the better game

[@DamianC]

That forum was my life

[@ValensBellator]

I spent the better part of a decade there. Good times.

[@DrunkAnton]

Darkfall dead?? lol it will be back they will resell the same broken game a 5th time guaranteed. the next game has to be everrquest next before all the information about how SOE ripped everyone off dissapears from the internet

[@88oscuro]

Everquest next was never more than an engine. They didn't know how to make a game out of it. Everything that shows gameplay are scripted content. The developers totally failed here, giving us empty promises. Lets see how Pantheon rise of the fallen turns out, since it's made by many of the same key people.

[@ValensBellator]

I still miss the forum wars as much as the game itself lol, I was a “Bishop” of Kirdain (one of the “duchies” of Hyperion) and that was a very fun experience. It’s a shame the game was so broken and limited at launch... I can’t speak for other guilds, but I saw that most of the guilds within Hyperion had enormous player drop off after a couple weeks when it became clear there wasn’t much to do and that territory ownership was more of a burden and hassle than anything. It was fun while it lasted though.

[@fusedtoast5367]

Okay man. You're killing it. This series is fantastic. I am so obsessed with the concept of the mmo. This is a perfect series for me. Can't wait until someone really nails it. I feel a true mmo breakthrough is coming. So many people passionately care about trying to find the perfect formula.

[@TheSandChris]

I was excited for Darkfall when it first came out and played it at launch, only for a week though. The game was not pretty and it took a lot of work to get anything done. The world was practically empty, no mobs or anything to find. The last time i logged on i spent a few hours running around the world exploring. There was nothing outside the starting area, no mobs, npc or anything, just ground and trees. I decided that i'd run to another starting area, just to see what it was like. So i arrived at one of the other starting areas and found that it was under attack by a few players. I figured i'd try to help the starting players and engaged the attackers, i did not fare well and had to run. So i ran to the starting area to hide behind the walls near the tower (shoots ganking players), but when i got there, the low level players didn't much care that i was there to help. They just killed me and took my stuff, i spawned back in my own starting area, closed down the game and never looked back.

[@dddtrump]

When the devs decided to split the server population in favor of 2 servers (1 na and 1 europe) the game started to decline and never was able to sustain itself. A huge world with little population in a world that was suppose to be about PVP and conquest doesnt really work with low population.

[@jakobkristensen2469]

This game was hands down the most intense pvp experience i ever had regardless of bugs and cheats.

[@bodhishakta7271]

Same.

[@Whiteshade]

I'm following you since your Death of a Game: Star Wars Galaxies video. But I can't get it enough, literally. Can you please make videos and post them more frequently? I can't find this quailty on youtube. Please don't stop making Death of a Game series.

[@Wolfsheim23]

It's really amazing what Adventurine did with Darkfall esp considering all the competition at the time, their small group, and making for such a small dedicated niche of the online world. They achieved what studios 100x their size only talked about and failed completely at, and they did it with much smaller budget and kept it going for quite a long time.

[@thegreatape884]

It's amazing they managed to create a failure of an MMO?

[@Aenygma_]

​@@thegreatape884It wasn't a failure at first, the game sold a shit ton of copies for an indie dev. AV's mismanagement is what caused it to fail.

[@thegreatape884]

@@Aenygma_ "In North America, Dark Fall sold 17,828 retail copies during 2003, and another 5,432 in the first two months of 2004" That's a shit ton of copies for you?

[@ruyan247]

The best part about Darkfall was the forums before release. I never planned on actually playing the game, but was active on the forums a lot.

[@MattBurnett7]

Your last point is so true. I was one of the original beta signups and waited for the game for years! Then it came out and you couldn't even level basic skills in a newbie area or sell your junk without getting ganked and looted. I didn't start when the game launched, but probably 6-8mo after. Exploring was impossible, you couldn't get far enough out of the city to actually learn the game or learn how to stay alive, because there was no way to slowly get used to it. I'm a big fan of PVP games, but Darkfall was just miserable.

[@bertbertimus2017]

I hear ya. You would have had to of been their at very beginning to play the full experience. It was amazing. After a few months all the people who macroed magic casting day and night became overly powered and thus the game died.

[@Cynical_Badger]

You should look at mortal online.

[@Cynical_Badger]

It is a failed game that was mismanaged and the Devs could never deliver on what they promised their community, as a long time player I would like to see it done justice by this series.

[@Nipah.Auauau]

I remember seeing a lot of Mortal Online a while ago and never getting around to playing it. Out of curiosity how did the devs mismanage it exactly?

[@Thimrandir]

It ain't dead yet, population seems to be pretty stable. And they just had the big modular house update. population is pretty healthy for these kind of games.

[@Dotic1]

Mortal Online GM's are liars and scumbags. That entire game i played from day 1 and the GM and dev team managed everything horribly and they did not have backups. Which means when people duped and shit went crazy there would be no way to rollback... the gms did stuff manually. Also the GM's gave players large amount of items and some people got treated very differently in game as per relations with the GM team. Also their website is not secure for credit card or personal information and players in the game were confirmed to have had access to GM accounts in game and on the website which gave the ability to spawn items and change almost anything. They banned players without reason and failed to ban hackers and dupers. The entire game was a shit show from day 1.

[@Thimrandir]

that sucks a lot, but it still ain't dead :)

[@ValensBellator]

I was following that game from late 2001 early 2002 all the way through the beta, launch, and reboot. It was a fun game but never really came together.

[@xxFortunadoxx]

Two points. 1) You probably should have talked more about the Eurogamer review, and the subsequent re-review, as the developers and the forum went retarded over that initial review. It was a huge deal because finally the reality that the game was total garbage at release hit the devs. It was hilarious how they lost their shit when Eurogamer gave them a 2/10, then a 4/10. 2) To me, the final part of your review about the delusions the community has is the prime evidence why MMO's that are PVP-specific *are* doomed to fail. They attract tryhards and tryhards will make the game unplayable for casuals. Since the ratio of casuals to tryhards is 9/1, eventually your MMO will be left with a tenth of its original playerbase. That might work for a multiplayer shooter, but not for a genre whose whole premise is "look at all these other players in this giant world I can interact with."

[@Whatever4690]

18:11 one of those small shapes on the hill is me. Nobody will sub for new dawn or ROA, only a runescape model might work.

[@WizardofTruth]

holy shit 1 hour video almost. well was great watching it. keep up the good work

[@fuzzyargy]

One thing i had a problem with Darkfall... is it looks brown all the time. Grey and brown.... ho hum. Could have been a good game. Hey nerdSlayer... maybe something interesting to do is to do a return to some of these games that are still going. Thanks love your work.

[@Baleur]

25:45 the sign of a pathological liar, he didnt TECHNICALLY lie, because it wasnt called Darkfall 2: Unholy Wars. He could use the excuse of it being an "off-shoot" branch game. Lol ive seen that kinda excuse to lie so many times. F that.

[@randomusernameCallin]

I think that long term uncontrolled or unlimited PvP games are doomed to fail.

[@ValensBellator]

It can work, it just requires a completed game lol The truth is it wasn’t the end of the world to lose gear and such in that game, but unlike their early promise that a skilled new player could compete with a veteran, their skill system (especially magic) left an insurmountable gulf between the two.

[@Skiddla]

@@ValensBellator for real, i quit and came back around 3 times after losing hope from the character stats and skill gap. it took forever to level up skills and stats, also you had to glitch mobs and make afk macros to even compete.

[@TheBlackSeraph]

Like the new logos, section headers and that death clock overlay.

[@nerdSlayerstudioss]

Thank you, I like them as well.

[@ethnine2692]

Awe, Darkfall. I've not played a game since that gave me the same rush when defeating another player. But it was also the harshest game I've ever played.

[@elitereptilian200]

captions: "adventuring shaky track wreck" Quite fitting..

[@GooseyBab88]

Hey nerdSlayer I love your videos and your channel! Now work harder to bring me more free content faster! I watched your videos so you kind of owe me.

[@xmaxdamage]

Brian Goodman its not free content if you see advertises :p

[@gaarakabuto1]

I have watched this video multiple times and i have been done some deeper research about Aventurin and where they moved afterwards and what happened behind the scene meanwhile the Darkfall game was running and going.I am from Greece and i have to say that the game did absolutely nothing to grab local players,when at the time of launching of Darkfall the second most popular game in Greece was WoW.Moreover on some of the many interviews Tasos did in Greek media he strongly emphasised on how he is trying to pull out a game with a base in Greece and in general how he is trying to prove that Greek people can enter the gaming industry if done right.Both from media and his statements it was clear that this game was more than a game a passion project done by a group of people wanting to prove themselves.As a passion project i started understanding his point of view when giving the statements you mention throughout the video,it wasn't just a job that wasn't succeeding but a further dream,a dream that had been put a lot of effort and personal dedication on. The location of the base of Aventurin was a problem on its self,when going through their page and multiple forums i came across many threads stating that the team of Aventurin needed extra hands but because of the environment and nature of the team those who were looking for a place in the team had to get to Greece(this is still stated on their page TODAY,they are clearing out that anyone willing to work with the will have to get here in Greece to do so) and there was no much luck on finding professionals.There was also a thread asking for new programmers from Greek universities knowing game programming,but none was shown to know the demanded engines since Greece wasn't really experienced with games before. Darkfall was a victim of its creators' high expectations,they wanted it to succeed but under the term to succeed as a Greek title and with a specified team image,which was impossible to ever work as such and denial brought the fall of the team,they simply overdone themselves for trying to accomplish something impossible.

[@Sunbreaker7]

DarkFall was a true mmorpg in its very nature and core. It offered absolute freedom to do whatever the heck you want and become whatever the heck you desired. It offered true PVP, Perma loot death, large scale castle siege and naval battles. Partying in this game felt real and meaningful, taking down big tough monsters together. Crafting really meant everything, no quests gave you jack shit, you had to earn everything with your sweat and blood, and anyone could take that away from you in a moment's notice if you were not careful.

[@driftaaa]

Saying that there is no grind in Darkfall, is like saying there is no oxygen in the air you breathe....

[@Nyder]

Sandbox games tend to fail. They're massive undertakings.

[@bertbertimus2017]

Well said NerdSlayer. I was there in 2009 and imo people afk boting magic ruined the game. It made having to aim with the bow pointless because with high level magic you could simply aim at the ground near their feet to do full damage. That's what ruined the game for me and I quit after 6 months. I never macroed and never will. That said, I hope that darkfall is a success.

[@dimitrigoryenko2901]

I remember being 12 and being hyped af for Darkfall. After watching this video I got New Dawn for a month. It was a great game back in the day.

[@cobain198]

DFO was good for its time but get over it, its outdated and ppl wanna play classes even in ROA. being a archer or warrior is not viable your a mage with a sword or bow, just aswell be called Magefall, the classes in UW was the best idea ever. AV overall fucked both versions of the games. But like DFO, new dawn and ROA will fail cuz its outdated and clunky, its the same old fucks playing the original and dont wanna let go.

[@captainrussia]

DF:New Dawn is dead? Website seems to be offline...

[@dddtrump]

Rise of Agon might still be alive

[@acdhipnose1791]

Seems to be dead, even google search doesn't find their site. Rise of Agon is still going

[@mjd3879]

I remember following this game on the forums for years, joining the dwarf clan led by surly, and planned on being a dwarf mage. When beta started, the game was not what I expected. I still remember that community though, one of the most invested forums I was ever involved in for a game where the anticipation was more exciting than the result.

[@blacksun54]

PvP heavy mmo's always sit in a weird spot, where they either force the people that just want to pvp to slog through a huge pve grind fest, or they just open the floodgates and force the pve'ers to always watch their backs for fear some guy comes running out of the bushes sword in hand, which inevitably leads to the pve'ers leaving the game and the pvp'ers running out of targets to hunt. surely there is a way to balance the two or at the very least allow people a way out of the pvp asside from quitting the game.

[@jonjon4760]

This was great! Never played Darkfall, but I've played Asheron's Call for years, have you considered doing a video on that? Tons of history there too!

[@半蔵-x5h]

Man those Mercs videos give me the chills. God damn seems like I will have to install rise of agon.

[@Aro2220]

2009-2011 Darkfall was one of the best gaming experiences I ever had... and some of the worst. The lag, the cheating, the grind, and fucking Tasos. Never have I spent so much effort in grinding and leveling in a game, let alone an MMO, only to have the server wiped. I can't think of any other game that ever did it. UO is the closest second and they didn't wipe the server - they just changed the entire game. I started playing EVE online long before Darkfall ever got released and I STILL have all my characters and items. P99 makes private everquest servers that are STILL working. It's just absurd... as bad as Darkfall was, there were so many things that Adventurine could have done to salvage it. But Tasos just wouldn't. He really did believe that lying and being dishonest was the best policy. He was some kind of spoiled rich kid narcissist and there was no getting through to him. The reality is that a game like Darkfall can't work well because of cheating and so you need some excellent data analysis paying attention to which players are leveling the quickest and how.... but somehow there were certain players that simply never got challenged... and I really think there was some shady shit going on in the background.

[@Cover4507]

Loving the new editing.

[@ADADEL1]

So nice to hear Asheron's Call getting a reference. Now you just need to bring up Shadowbane and Anarchy Online for all of my early MMO's to be represented ;).

[@TheGreatDrAsian]

I couldn't shut up about this game the entire time it was in development and when it came out I've never felt so let down in my entire life.

[@pissqueendanniella4688]

The publishers of darkfall do a great impression of the maintenance guy from Doug: "we're working on it" 😹😹😹😹😹

[@mogrey665]

Nice video. For the history unholy wars delay (and entering a beta phase instead) came at midnight Greek time just some hours before the launch.

[@Shoegazebasedgenre0.]

to be fair though. the MMORPG market beginning to stagnant as early as when developers taking the 'theme park' approach. where's free for all PvP were constrained, and removing full loot system to safe players from a certain's risk. modern mmorpg has become more of a social cosmetic based game than an open world that engaged the player like how it used to be

[@Tanchicomarkas]

Immature and abusive community always kills a game. I have tried most pvp centre mmo's, and they have all had a severely childish playerbase. Concerning DF, I have never seen so many cheats get away with their behaviour. DF was a joke and continued to be a joke for years. I tried it on and off, but there were so many childish morons the game it was just not worth playing.

[@alyasgrey9370]

Developer membership within The Mercs, who prior to Darkfall were widely viewed as a bunch of washed up C- list pvpers, didn't help matters when The Mercs were all able to use skill gain exploits upon launch that were then patched out without a reversion leading to a massive skill gulf that led most serious PvP guilds to bail en masse. Virtually everyone else believed The Mercs were intentionally being favored to the point that exploits were intentionally left in and that they were even notified of the exploits by developers playing with the guild.

[@Shajirr_]

Not providing information updates to people is a load of bullshit. There are tons of companies who provide pages upon pages of documented updates and changes to their games, as well as releasing lengthy videos showcasing and explaining them. Warframe, Hades, Factorio just to name a few games.

[@cci9459]

The greek dude, Tasos, looks like its the unsuccessfull twin brother of Michael Dell and he is scorned by their parents and always compared to Dell in everything he does

[@Mikebrowski]

This game was the best game ever when it came it I still havent had as good of time as this game to the date the true hardcorenss the sheer tryhardness of this game was fantastic

[@Wo0dGlue]

Pirates of the Burning Sea next?

[@KingPsycax]

I would love to see that! Such an unique MMO, but so poorly done.

[@Whatever4690]

They fucked that game by adding new skills.

[@WobblesandBean]

That's so sad...this game looked like it had so much promise, and it sounded like a lot of fun, but like always, incompetent devs fucked it up.

[@raminudl]

You should do a video on Firefall. Super long development, the devs constantly changing their minds and entirely redoing systems repeatedly (there were 2 different crafting/progression systems during the time I spent in beta, and then they redid it again after the game launched).

[@zix1257]

I remember arguing with some 30 yo manchild when i was like 12, becuse i thought this game had no future. Looks like i was right.

[@andrewballinger6681]

Great video nerdslayer that was a very good history that probably enlightened a lot of people of the game's past. Going through all these highs and lows myself as a player from NA launch till the early unholy wars beta I remember the heartache :).

[@theswordoftheguardnop2370]

Tell me... would you not agree with me that unholy wars was trying to make Darkfall for carebears? Would you not agree they could have an infiltrator from the main stream pushing hard to make the game go in this direction?

[@ZxSpectrum777]

The game was great when it came out. It made sense for adventure and everything that adventure and playing games bring with it, the free loot was also great. A lot of people who played the game DARK AND LIGHT (not new one, but the original one) were expecting some kind of her resurrection in Darkfall but unfortunately we didn't really get it lol. Too bad, there was a chance but somehow it disappeared. And yes, old (NOT NEW ONE) Dark and Light FOREVER! (i can play offline with emulator for windows xp, and I will never be able to explore it all because the game is ''bigger'' than our plane Earth).

[@definitelynotadam]

I was there at the very beginning before the game was released. We were speculating about the game features, hoping and suggesting some good game mechanics. We ended up getting an empty, grind heavy sandbox with Quake combat. Meh. Also spin to win combat. It was hilarious how broken this part of the game was.

[@neilbedwell7763]

do you remember samdogs hilarious fictional posts about getting to play the closed beta, and all the really awesome features he talked about which had nothing to do with the darkfall that released?

[@KAPUTTMACHAA]

Been with Darkfall Online from the beginning... until the bitter end. Your video really brings back some memories. Get Tasos'd.

[@IncognitoSprax]

I remember when it came out, the community for this game was hype. I didn't even know it shut down..or I forgot.

[@Yami1337Gaming]

The gameplay of this dead mmo really reminds me of the gameplay in ESO (Elder Scrolls Online) in the sence that you lvl each weapon to unlock new abillities tied to that specific weapon.

[@aozgolo]

Great video! I really miss Darkfall. I never considered myself a PvP Player, I actually disliked most concepts of competitive multiplayer, and in games like WoW I shunned it as much as I could. I hated this concept of arbitrary resets and how PvP had zero impact on the game world, there was no lasting legacy for victory. Coupled with my love for skill-based RPGs like The Elder Scrolls I instantly got drawn to Darkfall and despite not being very competitive minded, I had an absolute blast. I loved how everything in the game had consequence, how if your clan took over a city or hamlet, it was yours until someone else took it from you. I also loved the whole idea of people banding together to create something. I started out in run-of-the-mill clans, before joining one of the biggest clans on the NA Server at the time (Reincarnation) and still remember the day that clan alliance lost their entire island and got curbstomped (I'm not even mad bro). The grind was the biggest problem I had with the game, and I solved it (for myself at least) by focusing entirely on ships and becoming pirates. You didn't need stats or skills to use a cannon, you just aim and shoot. So I started one of the few exclusive pirate clans in Darkfall (Marque and Reprisal, later The Jolly Rogers) and while it was far from glorious, we still had a lot of fun sailing from chaos city to chaos city, farming mobs, wood, iron, and stone to build ships, capturing coastal village points, and testing our mettle against other seabound vessels (we sucked). I was sad to see the game go, and while I briefly tried out Unholy Wars I found it very alienating, nothing seemed better, it just seemed different. I am excited by the prospect of New Dawn and Rise of Agon but at this time I really want to give each some time to breathe and hopefully kick off before investing myself into the game again. I truly hope Darkfall will live on, and at the very least, show other developers there's a potential market for games like this if you're willing to go full hardcore.

[@aopfin]

I remember trying to free trial of the original game once. There were people right outside the starter area ganking noobs. There was literally no way a new player could have gotten into the game since other players were actively preventing you from doing anything.

[@CQBEXPT]

This seems like it had a hardcore fan base for the same reason EVE online does. Seems the difference though was CCP handled the company and game a bit better.

[@mushafasa]

Good days, wish they lasted longer.

[@fireflameft2964]

I remember finding this MMO by chance years ago when I was looking for a new MMO to play as a WoW PvP player. I didn't know it had so much history, I also really like the graphics for some reason, they are different but cool and stylish, they also feel nostalgic, even tho I've never played the game. It's such a shame that such an unique game died because of so much missmanagement, even tho it's still alive thanks to the reboots it's probably not the same and it's not what it could have been if it were to be managed well from the very beggining. Great video.

[@giveussomevodka]

I like the new presentation. Good video, and shame about the game. I missed on it, but it revived my Warhammer: Age of Reckoning related sadness. With all the nostalgia driven development today, we can see a lot of people claiming they want an old school cRPG, or a fast arena shooter, or a PvP sandbox MMO, and then when these release nobody buys them and they die. Developers should start to recognize loud minorities as just that, minorities, and scale back on budget and scale so that such projects can persist. Edit: I noticed you didn't talk about the company's side activities. They had to fake doing academic research, so they can continue getting funded by the greek government and the EU. Just like Taleworlds (Mount&Blade) today, they get government money on research programs.

[@nerdSlayerstudioss]

Good catch, I didn't even know about that.

[@lord6617]

I don't know, I think you miss one of the biggest problems with games like Darkfall or Shadowbane - inevitably, the fun small scale warfare or loose alliances amalgamated into large blobs, and eventually blobbing would overwhelm even skilled groups of small players. There hasn't been a PVPMMO other than maybe Eve online that has managed this in the long term.

[@Nipah.Auauau]

Dark Age of Camelot? Well, I guess it's pretty old by now...

[@bradmaxwell7354]

It really is tragic to witness a game fail because the people who asked for it didn't really want what they were asking for after all.

[@AizaakThurston]

Yeah the skill system and the macro/exploits was the main reason I passed on it despite considering myself a hardcore pvp player.

[@krockeschinski]

i find it odd that you not once mention the game Darkfall was in direct competition with : EVE Online. The Communities of both games even had huge overlaps, and after the initial hype many players went back to EVE Online as it offered many of the same core game mechanics (PVP Focues, Player Controlled economy & territory and full player looting) and was way more polished.

[@bradmaxwell7354]

I've noticed that a lot of these PvP-focused MMOs end up either dead or in life support not long after their release. It seems impossible to make a game where you're encouraged to fight other players and take their stuff without the veteran playerbase eventually forming the dreaded elitist circlejerk that ruins the game for everyone and pretty much guarantees the game's inevitable demise. I understand the reasoning behind wanting a game like this to remain "hardcore" and unforgiving, and being resistant to changes to make the game more accessible (or less "hardcore") and actively giving new and less dedicated players a hard time, but at the end of the day this is still an MMO we're talking about; a type of game that requires an active and healthy playerbase to remain relevant. It's hard to maintain a game like this running when the community itself is contributing to its demise with their shitty attitudes.

[@hideskdwi8523]

Brad Maxwell cough cough eve

[@Plzpetmyrooster]

When you said the new title "New Dawn", I heard "Nude-on" like a nude add on haha

[@Ripthejack3r]

never heard of this game but it looks really fun and great gritty art style, need a combat system in this day and age like this

[@aleksa2413]

Can you do one on Allods Online? Yes the game is still going but it experienced a mass exodus of players from which it will never recover from.

[@IIxIxIv]

Another great one! Have you heard of mechscape/stellar dawn? While it was never released the story might be interesting to tell.

[@xzxz85]

So not only the community was toxic, but the devs too. Well ...

[@silvarrensol8370]

One word: Xpiher. Also, where's my goddam four-legged run? :P

[@seronys6601]

300k sales, still going strong in 2017, combat still holds up to almost every other game out there. Darkfall forever and ever a million years Darkfall. Darkfall breeds the best bangers. You think it's a game? It's a god damn lifestyle. Get gud.

[@nerdSlayerstudioss]

Exhibit A folks.

[@seronys6601]

;) I just quit it yesterday, lololololol. Real Talk though, your mention of Self-Cannibalization is very accurate, but the competitive nature of Darkfall is what makes it so great. A Darkfall Unholy War developer stressed to the 2 new developers that a safety net was needed (in the form of danger zones, similar to albion online), to try and allow some type of separation from the hardcore poopsockers and casuals. If the seperation is never option, the game will always fail. You really do have to be a headstrong, masochist to thrive in a game like Darkfall though. It's pretty sad/great at the sametime.

[@Barbaryotaku]

Well done on fixing the typo

[@fredsifyable]

I played forumfall from 05-08, it was the greated game I ever played

[@TheGeraltofrivia]

can you do dark age of Camelot at some point. I used to play it

[@nonenone769]

WOW, parts sounds so much like Star Citizen: crazy fans, long development, etc. You don't need to know history, it always repeats and rhyme