DEBATE: ISLAM OR LIBERALISM: WHICH ONE IS BETTER FOR HUMANITY? Dr Graham Oppy & Abdullah al Andalusi

Event organised by Macquarie University Muslim Student Association
To access the online courses provided by the Quran Institute, please email: [e-mail]

[@SubboorAhmadAbbasi]

06:30 Definition of Liberalism 08:45 Lack of a higher meaning 09:15 False ontological premise of Liberalism 11:05 Islam's ontological position 14:48 Aims of Islamic law and human nature 19:07 Definition of Liberalism 20:05 Aims of the Liberal state 23:13 Conflicting understandings of Islamic law 25:00 Islamic jurisprudential thought 37:00 Islamic view on social corruption 39:00 Islam's ability to account for differences 40:25 The Madinah Model 41:28 Premarital sex and marriage stability 42:41 Liberalism and wealth inequality 43:30 Rise of Social Liberalism 44:05 France's implementation of self realisation 45:17 Islamic laws prevent human misery 46:53 Response to Oppy's convergence claim 48:18 Liberal disputes on the understanding of equality 49:49 Liberal disputes on the understanding of wealth equality 51:14 Understanding liberalism through historical development 53:53 Liberalism and state intervention 57:06 Liberalism inclusion of state religion 59:30 Islam's tolerance to other faiths 1:04:05 Liberalism enforcement and permissibility for colonialism 1:05:05 Autonomous desires do not exist 1:06:11 Liberalism does not impose on external states 1:07:06 Minimum amount of laws to achieve people's comprehensive conception of the good 1:07:40 Which states provide more freedom 1:11:18 Colonisation is justified by Liberalism 1:14:41 Response to claims about non-Muslim treatment 1:18:15 Limits on freedom of speech 1:27:57 Distinction between liberal theory and liberal theorists 1:32:03 To what extent is liberalism and Islam responsible for the excesses in their names 1:42:17 Response to vulnerability argument 1:43:17 Competing conceptions of the good does does not lead to committing to one conception of the good 1:48:02 Is liberalism a product of European christian experience of intolerance 1:49:19 Social liberalism and Social idealism 1:54:15 Liberalism can lead to fascism 1:55:25 Comprehensive conception of the good and illiberal implementation 1:58:04 Conception of the good and priorities 1:59:19 Islam's protection of the family 2:01:45 Liberalism does not prevent exploitation 2:02:16 Liberalism and consumerism 2:03:12 Artificial state of nature, strongest decide what is good, as liberalism does not have one definition

[@loveispower1040]

jajakallah .

[@31-mohammedshafeehe47]

Jazakallah Kairan 🤍

[@atifbhat9922]

Good!!!

[@homtanks7259]

Jazakallahu khairan

[@yes-wo7qn]

AYOO SUBBOOR PULLED UP

[@SubboorAhmadAbbasi]

Finally

[@mysticranger6894]

funny seeing u here

[@chillingcat5033]

@@mysticranger6894 Weird right? A prominent muslim apologist in the comments section of another prominent muslim apologist.

[@MrChickenstalker]

@@chillingcat5033 make sure you don’t end up in hell , think hard 😬

[@Servant_0f_Allah.]

@@Ipluuu shoo

[@Abdullah21038]

@@MrChickenstalker don't do that, as muslims despite what they may say or do, don't have react so angrily, the person doesn't know, you were blessed with knowledge though, hope for the best for them rather than push them away by mocking them

[@AhlusSunnahwalJamah]

These are the type of atheists that we love to be challenged by. Respectful and civil unlike most online atheists.

[@jasperlee7490]

What is your opinion on the Quranists and progressive Muslims, who are against the Sharia Law? Are they accepted to be Muslims? Thanks

[@yooshatarique019]

@@jasperlee7490 they may be considered muslims but they are misguided

[@fluxx9458]

@@jasperlee7490 Quranists are not Muslims. And as for Liberal/Progressive Muslims, I would repeat the statement of @59 Yoosha Tarique: they may be considered muslims but they are misguided

[@srnp0007]

@@fluxx9458 :- Quranists are not Muslims......." Why ? Would You Care to Explain ?

[@jobkurd7534]

the Quran itself says the follow the Prophet pbuh but they don't follow the hadith so they reject some parts of the Quran, perhaps not knowingly

[@truthinknowledge8312]

May Allah swt reward brother Abdullah Al Andalusi for his great efforts.

[@shinobiexmuslimatheistapis5867]

Islam is a totalitarian relic of a 7th century Arab warlord with 24 wives. Who succumbed to damaged organs and 3 years of agony from eating a poisoned sheep by one of the conquered women. He unexpectedly died without leaving any form of power transition mechanism. The slaughter of Omar, Usman, Ali, Hussain and many more rulers is the clear proof of the Anarchist nature of Islam. Even suggesting a better solution to the failure that is Islam results in manslaughter with an apostasy or blasphemy charge as the tyrant in Islam is your guardian/ameer/Imam who only accepts blind obedience like an automaton to the allah pokemon. The golden age you people want to claim so much was when the heretics who believed in rationalism and philosophy seized power. Use all the rosy words you want. You can never silence Parrhesiastes.

[@liby254]

@@shinobiexmuslimatheistapis5867 get a life Murtad. At least get off youtube and “live up your life” until reality comes to you

[@shinobiexmuslimatheistapis5867]

@@liby254 The climate of Medina did not suit some people, so the Prophet (ﷺ) ordered them to follow his shepherd, i.e. his camels, and drink their milk and urine (as a medicine). So they followed the shepherd that is the camels and drank their milk and urine till their bodies became healthy. Then they slew the shepherd and drove away the camels. When the news reached the Prophet (ﷺ) he sent some people in their pursuit. When they were brought, he cut their hands and feet and their eyes were branded with heated pieces of iron. Sahih al-Bukhari 5686 In-book reference: Book 76, Hadith 9

[@shinobiexmuslimatheistapis5867]

@@liby254 really intellectual reply, now go and have a drink of what the prophet prescribed.

[@liby254]

@@shinobiexmuslimatheistapis5867 look how disgraced you Murtard's are (you're probably not a Murtad, maybe a Hindu hiding). You guys leave Islam, yet Islam is still the primary source of you life. Constant Thikr..

[@Sixtra]

As an atheist these types of conversations between theists and atheists are preferable rather what we usually see online between our different worldviews.

[@homtanks7259]

Ppl are different in every way

[@michaelevans4110]

Agreed. Thx

[@2l84me8]

Not being convinced of a god is not a worldview.

[@Sixtra]

@@2l84me8 Atheism entails a “non-religious worldview is, analogously, a worldview that only involves naturalistic beliefs. Believes that, in the absence of an afterlife and any discernible purpose to the universe, human beings can act to give their own lives meaning by seeking happiness in this life and helping others to do the same.”

[@2l84me8]

@@Sixtra An atheist is simply someone who lacks a belief in any gods. Buddhists for example have no gods but do believe in an afterlife. Not being convinced of any unproven claims can hardly be called a worldview.

[@luqmanghazi3104]

I think in this debate, we the listener were the winners for learning such great knowldge in such a great way from both sides.

[@iashaik]

May Allah reward you and strengthen your iman.

[@AtheismLeadsToIrrationality]

Ma Sha Allah , i knew, i don't call Ustadh Abdullah Al Andalusi "Ustadh" without any reasons , it's established once again , Alhamdulillah

[@atikdeloliya3658]

Yeah exactly

[@zaxxbegge8309]

Graham Oppy is a respectful person

[@Solemn_G]

Good job brother. You answered Dr. Oppy's contentions very well with tangible and relevant examples.

[@TheSlaveOfAllah1992]

If we want justice. If we want to save humans and animals then *shareah law* is the only option for us. Man made law can not solve anything.

[@northernlight8857]

Thats a tall claim. How can sharia be the only answer when much of it is immoral and cruel?

[@TheSlaveOfAllah1992]

@@northernlight8857 Islam is the path to a healthy life for yourself and for your society. Criminals roam our streets, they get the best lawyer, murderers, rapists, robbers, assault is quite common in today's society. The laws of Islam are there to scare you that you should not commit these horrible crimes, that you should value the lives of others as you value your own life and your property. Islam forbids hunting animals for fun, cutting trees unnecessarily is illegal. In today's society, a child can sell drugs to adult men and women and Islam has solutions to all these problems. Shareah law is the path to a just, harmonious and peaceful world. I understand that people who are ignorant of shareah law think that shareah law is barbaric and horrible but when I have delved into this subject I am ashamed of what I thought about shareah law, may Allah forgive me for it. This is the reality and islam has solotion for it.

[@shinobiexmuslimatheistapis5867]

@@TheSlaveOfAllah1992 Islam is a totalitarian relic of a 7th century Arab warlord with 24 wives. Who succumbed to damaged organs and 3 years of agony from eating a poisoned sheep by one of the conquered women. He unexpectedly died without leaving any form of power transition mechanism. The slaughter of Omar, Usman, Ali, Hussain and many more rulers is the clear proof of the Anarchist nature of Islam. Even suggesting a better solution to the failure that is Islam results in manslaughter with an apostasy or blasphemy charge as the tyrant in Islam is your guardian/ameer/Imam who only accepts blind obedience like an automaton to the allah pokemon. The golden age you people want to claim so much was when the heretics who believed in rationalism and philosophy seized power. Use all the rosy words you want. You can never silence Parrhesiastes.

[@TheSlaveOfAllah1992]

Shinobi EXmuslim@ I have never seen someone calling himself ”exchristian, exhindu, exjew, exbudisht etc. i wonder why😁 You have been brainwashed my friend. If you Wanna discuss about islam then let us begin with the *foundation* i have no problem to discuss about islam with you or anyone else. Islam is based upon *knowledge and logic* So bring your proof.

[@northernlight8857]

@@TheSlaveOfAllah1992 no thank you. Humanism provides better ways. Sharia is immoral and outdated for at least 500 years ago. There is a reason muslims flock by the millions away from sharia inspired countries to the west. Freedom, compassion, wealth and justice

[@ray620]

Been waiting for this.

[@pufftiloe]

Same

[@modoz8377]

Me too

[@isam3l3]

Same

[@MK-tv4qp]

Soom

[@IshaaqNewton]

May Allah reward brother Abdullah. Very beneficial discussion.

[@bilaloswald872]

Assalamualaikum brother

[@bilaloswald872]

Why ain't you on Twitter no more?

[@IshaaqNewton]

@@bilaloswald872 Walaikum Salam

[@bilaloswald872]

@@UndeniablyMortal Yeah. I do.

[@codingblues3181]

"Then He directed Himself to the heaven while it was smoke and said to it and to the earth: 'Come [into being], willingly or by compulsion.' They said, 'We have come willingly.' That is Islam and that is worship, all that is within heaven and earth glorifies him. Our comprehension is a not the yardstick long enough to claim to understand how all of this manifests.

[@shinobiexmuslimatheistapis5867]

Spooky divinely hidden allah.

[@codingblues3181]

​@@shinobiexmuslimatheistapis5867 To a retard common sense is hidden and devoid of meaning, to an intelligent simple sign is sufficient.

[@asddw1344]

The moderator was really good .. MashaaAllah may Allah bless him

[@obaidrj]

To be honest, I feel like you didn't give an answer to what Oppy's definition of which version or specific Islamic law you were talking about. You only mentioned that Medina was the first Islamic State and how the Prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him, preferred mercy over anger, especially when doubts regarding the evidence in question to the crime arose. After that, you went off course into the detriments of liberalism and what western political philosophies stood for. There could have been much more added to that segment.

[@hassanm623]

Which version of islamic law? There’s only one shariah. No countries today practice shariah perfectly as during the time of Prophet Muhammad ﷺ . Not even saudi arabia

[@obaidrj]

@@hassanm623 Yes, the shariah, derived from the Qur'an and authentic ahadeeth. My point was brother Abdullah didn't respond to the comments and observations made by Dr. Oppy, I'm referring to the case study he cited.

[@hassanm623]

@@obaidrj i see

[@ummerfarooq5383]

@@obaidrj well the UK incorporated Malaki system into English common law during the reign of king Henry ii, his son John of England asked for the law of Muhammad in 1209 but no one came. One example of what the sharia would have done, it would have blocked the UK Boris Johnson's government from making people hand clap outside their homes. Old women and nurses with bruised over worked hands having to make a show to be known as being loyal and not treasonous for some liberal antics to support a ruling party, that was wrong. وَمَا كَانَ صَلَاتُهُمْ عِندَ ٱلْبَيْتِ إِلَّا مُكَآءً وَتَصْدِيَةًۚ فَذُوقُوا۟ ٱلْعَذَابَ بِمَا كُنتُمْ تَكْفُرُونَ And not was their linking at the house except whistling and handclapping. So taste the punishment for what you covered. Sign 35, post 8, Al-anfal get Quran App: You can note the signs/ayahs around the 35th one and see how they relate to such political parties.

[@thejoin4687]

@@ummerfarooq5383 The UK didn't exist during the reign of Henry II

[@MZD15]

Sharia restrictions come from stand point because our purpose of life is to worship the creator. Anything that derails that purpose is restricted. For eg: drinking alcohol, gambling, music etc. Liberalism comes from perspective that we have one life and we have to enjoy as much as possible without much restrictions bcz after death it's all over. So how much ever show them benifits of sharia law that is low crime rate, low suicide rate etc. They won't accept because the foundation of both is different that is worshipping the creator vs One life have as much as fun etc.

[@sunset2.00]

Better than I could and I will use it U would not Mind I hope

[@thedude882]

Not quite. Liberalism comes from the perspective that each individual is free to pursue his own path, wherever it may lead him.

[@MZD15]

@@thedude882 this is soo false. If you say you're against LGBTQ thing you will loose job. And also wearing hijab is considered oppressive even if women like to wear it. It has now become a religion.

[@sunset2.00]

@@thedude882 John lock classical liberalism original principal was life liberty pursuit of happiness can make sence if we have only one life. The left liberal now now focus on persuit of happiness over liberty. While the libertarian liberals focus on liberty (by name) more.

[@thedude882]

@@MZD15 the issues about speech against lgbt people don't come from the state. Private companies will fire people over those remarks, not the state. The state won't punish you for this kind of speech under liberalism. You seem a bit confused about the difference between private companies taking action and the state taking action.

[@SawarimHaqq]

JazakAllahu khair brother Abdullah for your efforts in defending Islam. May Allah swt bless you with abundant good.

[@Islamiccalling]

Great conversation, was definitely worth the watch.

[@trappedinexistence]

the muslim dominated but the atheist clearly wasn't in "debate mode". the muslim also talked a little bit too much. both of them spoke very respectful and engaged with the other's arguments which is the most important thing in these kind of discussions. for that alone i think both deserve a lot of respect irregardless of their personal convictions. E: a big thank you to Macquarie University Muslim Student Association!

[@turdferguson3400]

Dominated how? Abdullah kept ignoring the questions Oppy asked him and spoke in very theoretical terms without mentioning how Islam and sharia look like today or even in the last few centuries. Abdullah just wanted to appear strong without having real answers. Even the moderate could tell that he was just posturing and stalling for time.

[@The_Angry_BeEconomist]

yeah it was a little annoying that Abdullah would just wax lyrical without respecting the fact that the atheist was keeping his answers short

[@kingmosesix432]

@@turdferguson3400 in the past century it was rashidon or 1st generation of muslims who are our golden example... as for today its not even present.. actually in Muslim world we r constantly combating the influence and western world view which now dominate.. so which "islamic law" ur talking about.. there isnt one.. or the real actually one... wht we have is culture tht is in name islam....

[@turdferguson3400]

@@kingmosesix432 then you are admitting there is no real islam today. You can't resurrect the system that has been dead for centuries because they can't tell you all the details. You have to live in the modern world with modern rules. The fact that "real" Islamic law doesn't exist anymore is proof that it was so archaic that it died out long ago.

[@hamzazulfi]

@@turdferguson3400 The so called modern world relies on ancient philosophies and presuppositions as well. Heck even democracy is older than Prophet's SAW time. "The fact that "real" Islamic law doesn't exist anymore is proof that it was so archaic that it died out long ago" *I think you're forgetting western barbaric rule and blaming it on the system. Poor logic.*

[@كفىبالموتواعظا-ل8ظ]

جزاكم الله خير أرجو أن يكون هناك ترجمة لجميع المناظرات التي تقومون بها ..

[@modoz8377]

I have been waiting for this.FINALLY!!

[@PostSomething]

Muslim here but so impressed with Oppy's manners he is a true gentleman

[@amalia512]

Finally MashaAllah Tabarakallah

[@_o__o]

May Allah multiply your deeds brother Abdullah. JazakAllah khair for your work🤲🏼.

[@jimfromwakanda7991]

MashaAllah brother Abdullah may Allah Azzawajal bless you, increase your knowledge and the power of your voice, ameen

[@UmarIbnAlKhattab1]

Is palestine free yet

[@jimfromwakanda7991]

@@UmarIbnAlKhattab1 it's under occupation but will be free one day inshaAllah

[@jimfromwakanda7991]

InshaAllah

[@DWAGON1818]

A study on which states are the most Islamic was done in Georgetown University. The countries in the top 10 were Japan, Ireland, Sweden and Luxembourg and many other of the most advanced nations on the planet. These nations don't believe in the Sovereignty of God but they have other aspects which are purely Islamic. Ummayads, Abbasids, Ottomons and Fatimid were Muslim ruled empires. Not Islamic. They had some Islamic elements to them. The only purely Islamic nations after the Prophet(pbuh) were of the Rightly Guided Caliphs(Khualaf-i-Rashideen). What we need to do is teach our young generation that we Muslims have our own political philosophy and the idea of an ideal state. Based not on Freedom(liberty) but on Slavehood to Allah(swt).

[@SamSam-mv6gf]

Salam brother, you forgot that an Islamic state ruled like Khulfa with Shura principles for over 1200 years. Read about Oman, they are the best most close to our prophet peace be upon him teachings and they were the first school of Islam. Unfortunately they had many political enemies but if you are looking for truth you will be amazed

[@alternativehistorypenguin2544]

@@SamSam-mv6gf yeah let us throw the Ottomans, Mughals, Mamlukes, Abbasids, Ummayads, and everyone else out of the window

[@taffem9084]

Our role models should be the khulafa rashidun and we should work towards that and not give up. Those secular liberals are also working towards literally a fantasy world that they will never reach, why can't we work towards a possible state that has already been achieved?

[@ErikDIto]

@@alternativehistorypenguin2544 The Ottomans and others were good+bad. Not a good choice to put em as a religious model. The Caliphs were only good. So they are chosen as religious models

[@thewesternworld9695]

Western people destroy none western countries for 400years and still destroy non western countries but they claim themselves that western people's are righteous than inferior nation's as Iraq or Iran or Afghanistan or North Korea or Vietnam or Russian

[@asadullahsaaid3794]

SUBHANALLAH ❤️🤍❤️ May Allah SWT bless you and accept your efforts.

[@IssaYasin]

I have great respect for Dr. Oppy. He's really sharp and has good manners too. Very interesting and good pros and cons Thx Brother Abdullah:))

[@maddada]

May Allah reward you brother Abdullah. Thank you for all that you do.

[@AbdurRahman-cf8xd]

Very respectful debate! I think, Dr. Oppy is somewhat right, when you want to establish Islamic law, it might be quite difficult to reconcile within Islamic sects or groups let alone applying to the followers of other religions/system. There are so many conflicting and contradictory understanding of Islamic law/ jurisprudence itself within Islamic groups/sects.

[@FlammablePunch]

How?

[@lion_hawk]

Wrong. It's an old matter that was explained by scholars hundreds of years ago. The jurisprudence is that of the ijtihad of the ruler. Finished.

[@UmarIbnAlKhattab1]

Imagine siding with a mulhid

[@daddybigpenis4141]

@@UmarIbnAlKhattab1 mulhids can be 100x times smarter than you

[@deiov]

The point made, even if that is true (it's outlined scholars have already dealt this), Islam has a source that grounds those difference regardless of opposing basis, the qur'an. To be a liberal and to base that when there is as many more contradictory views in liberalism, there's no grounding, mere assertions, is throwing stones at your glass house.

[@sofiane5504]

Thanks br abdellah alandausi you always the best 🙂😘😘👍🏻👍🏻👍🏻👍🏻

[@nimasws4594]

Well, the discussion certainly was interesting. I'm just disappointed that there wasn't much of a push back from professor Oppy

[@donaldmcronald8989]

Totally agree. Abdul read an essay at every available opportunity & that's just not at all Oppy's style. Shame there wasn't a more natural back and forth.

[@nimasws4594]

@@donaldmcronald8989 it was a discussion so tbh it was Oppy's fault for not engaging

[@ibnmianal-buna3176]

@EH • 7 years ago Oh yeah true nevermind I didn’t read that properly

[@erwinsmith5381]

اللَّهُمَّ صَلِّ عَلَى سَيِّدِنَا مُحَمَّدٍ وَعَلَى آلِ سَيِّدِنَا مُحَمَّدٍ

[@Gokutalk-yl2lk]

May Allah bless you Brother

[@shelanha892]

Great debate, I personally get tremendous information from your debates jazakah Allah kheyern

[@Azhar_shaikh1]

Happy families vs incest, beastility, and BDSM

[@ziyaulansari2759]

Easy choice, I choose family.

[@arkaazizul6673]

What bout homosexuality?

[@fvai8203]

@@arkaazizul6673 I think he's tryna show liberalist what most of them believe being "bad" although it is accepted in liberalism. But homosexuality is widely accepted.

[@Creedspq]

lol

[@Azhar_shaikh1]

@@arkaazizul6673 haram!

[@abdullmana4598]

May Allah bless and reward you Akhi

[@ped1xu]

someone respectful finally we love to see it

[@LilahIlaAllah]

Sister change your pfp

[@DjPigeonDroppins]

👏 hope we get a part 2 inshallah 🙏 ❤

[@osamak123]

First comment. Let's go! JazakAllahu khairan

[@omarr1258]

Hamdulilah for Islam

[@homtanks7259]

May Allah grant u Al-Firdaus brother Abdullah, amin

[@thafseer3893]

May Allah bless you😊

[@FlyingSpaghettiMonster2000]

I'll pick the one that doesn't kill me for leaving...

[@sunset2.00]

Tell that to Edward Snowdon. If you can give justified reason you can leave .

[@FlyingSpaghettiMonster2000]

@@sunset2.00 thats one person. Islam punishes any apostate with death under shariah law.

[@sunset2.00]

@@FlyingSpaghettiMonster2000 no He will in court to give his reasons if can't give good reason two choices are give .

[@FlyingSpaghettiMonster2000]

@@sunset2.00 what valid reasons does Islam give to leave?

[@sunset2.00]

@@FlyingSpaghettiMonster2000 most ex don't have valid reason when they leave , they make it up after ... The death penalty only applicable in a caliphate court system as it destabilize the system if people willy nilly go in n out. not your local mini sharia court as that is murder under that country law.I am talking about theoretical here.

[@fahad055]

Amazing , jazak Allah khair shaikh Abdullah Alandalusi .

[@lunarcalendar368]

When you find The keyboard warriors down below, don't give any refutations or arguments but just strawman and make ad hominems, that they are basic.

[@ArtOfMkUltra]

this was great!

[@Oskar1000]

So hard to follow these debates when so many points are taken up at once. It's like, here are 15 points I've thought of, any responses.

[@Hello-vz1md]

It's a discussion

[@Oskar1000]

@@Hello-vz1md Sure, my point would be the same. Hard to follow.

[@ummerfarooq5383]

@@Oskar1000 then ask Allah to make it easier for you.

[@Oskar1000]

@@ummerfarooq5383 Nice condescension

[@sunset2.00]

@@Oskar1000 I listen twice to make it easier BTW.missed many points too.

[@markov.2467]

First thought: What a difference in Noor on their faces

[@DaboooogA]

Good debate but poorly moderated leading to the debaters frequently talking at cross purposes

[@mobinurrahman4377]

Was waiting

[@abbc1999]

Basically Graham doesn't accept a single point regarding theory/practice and today/history, he doesn't have any hard science to support what he saying, just "trust me, I'm right", basically waffling

[@theaviationist.5719]

Has Islam got any science in it? I love religious people's cognitive dissonance..

[@abbc1999]

@@theaviationist.5719 What you mean by science? Thing that changes every 50 years or so? No it doesn't include hypothetical multiverse nonsense

[@theaviationist.5719]

@@abbc1999 I asked you if the Quran has any science in it. You are correct, our scientific knowledge improves as we gain more and more information.. We went from Nokia 3310's to now Iphone 13.. That's science for you.. Introduced Technology. Modern medicine etc. Went from riding on camels, donkeys and horses to now flying on aeroplane, travelling by Cars and bikes etc.. Went from imagining about how our universe functions or how it started to figuring out how complex it is etc. Discovered Math, chemistry, biology, physics etc.. That's science for you.. Now let's talk about Islamic /quranic never changing pseudoscience.. Muhammad flying into deep space on a winged mule without a pressurised spacesuit. Muhammad splitting the moon inhalf. The sun setting in a spring. How spern is emitted from between our backbone andrib cage. How Allah made adam from clay. And he mae Eve /Hawah from one of Adam's ribs. How all these meteorites are being thrown by allah to chase satan away.. How we are made from a clot of blood. How the sun prostrates to allah every evening (sun set). Talking snakes. Talking ants. Talking rocks etc. This is Islamic never changing science.. Right? smh

[@abbc1999]

@@theaviationist.5719 I told you, it depends what you call by science) If iPhone is science for you, then everything in this world is science, literally every word I'm typing is science for you. If the probability of this universe coming into existence by itself exists for you, then why you have problem with flying creatures etc, because "everything is possible" right? If literally every thing is possible why what Quran saying is impossible? I see inconsistency in your logic)

[@abbc1999]

@@theaviationist.5719 It is like saying we can clone ourselves, save our consciousness in the internet or whatever database, live forever in matrix, become bionic humans, don't have any illnesses etc bs, but what you guys saying it is absolutely impossible, no way God exists) you guys are lunatics)

[@onaiza6383]

Good but Abdullah could have made his points more briefly.

[@truthspeaker5118]

We all can see who won and mashallah

[@donaldmcronald8989]

lmfao. he aint gonna fuck you dude.

[@truthspeaker5118]

@@donaldmcronald8989 lol it’s clear by your reaction who won 🥇 thx for making it clear islam is the way.. may Allah open your blind eyes

[@PabloSensei]

@@donaldmcronald8989 🤡

[@theaviationist.5719]

Hahahaha. Just because a biased muslim claims that his side won does not mean it actually won.. Can you please provide any objective evidence from any neutrals that say that Abdullah won? This is such precious childish mentality. I am a muslim, so basically the muslims apologist wins by default.. Same as when you watch christian or any group.. In any debate 99.99999999% of boths sides will come out claiming victory...The christian always laments how the christian apologists win all the time against Muslims. The Muslims will always lament how their muslims apologists wins by default all the time etc.. It's basically "My dad is bigger than your dad argument).. Grow up you religious simpletons.. It's 2021 but still are so desperate to hold on to debunked ancient mythology.. It's embarrassing.. smh

[@windmill-ze8rj]

the moderator was great and actually maybe he should have talked to oppy instead of abdullah, who continuously engaged in cherry-picking, strawmanning, well poisoning, inability to engage, continuously showing that he doesn't understand what liberalism actually is. if I was muslim I would be disappointed at his performance!

[@mishalaqeel380]

Jazakallah

[@williamlight2393]

Dr.Oppy is awesome. uwu

[@ecclesiastes7]

Well done proffesor Oppy. I wish to know. If Islam provides such a good life, morally , socially etc why do Muslims leave islamic countries to come to live in the Liberal West? If the reason is economic, then it should be accepted that it is the Liberal system that allows for economic opportunity. It is not perfect, and the amount of state intervention, as Proffesor Oppy said, varies. So it is not Westerners who go to live in Muslim countries but Muslims who freely come to the Liberal West. The reason is of course, that overall, Liberalism as a political system, is superior to the Islamic political system.

[@Djdu7228xnxj]

Abdullah ought to curb his glib to engage in some kind of productive discussion. Rather, he's trying to evangelise the audience with his commendations of Islam 💀

[@atikdeloliya3658]

Ya Ustad, if the ontology of the fathers of Liberalism was flawed then what does that entail?

[@zakaria87100]

Abdullah spoke too much heh, but this was very good discussion. Edit : Also the prof contradicted himself, he already said there's a discussion between liberals and intervention s and colonialism. Then he later said liberalism isn't linked to colonialism...

[@AlAmin-ct6cn]

May Allah bless abdullah andulsi

[@GetSomeLifePal]

Ya Abdullah, i love you man but you spoke way too much. Be concise with your words and examples like oppy was. Some of your contentions were great such as the fact that conception of good under liberalism is pretty much a true scottsman fallacy but keep it to one case study and be specific. Also please join a toastmasters club lol. Way too many ums. Just some constructive criticism. Keep up the good work.

[@donaldmcronald8989]

Yeah! For every one of Oppy's words, Abdul gave 700. Just got tiresome real quick.

[@bodrulm1]

There is no one way to speak and deliver. Toastmasters is an opinion, an approach. We are deceived by great presenters (they are salesman). It's the substance in the words that should count over style. People are wowed by style and manipulated.

[@sunset2.00]

What is toast master ....? Yeah Abdul need some sharpening .

[@dragonofchaos7843]

Abdullah please check the authenticity of hadiths before quoting it.

[@shamsali9903]

Brother stop right here now! 20 years of American’s liberalism in Afghanistan failed measurably. And your answer right there !!!

[@rafaelallenblock]

This is a two hour long sermon by Abdullah occasionally interrupted by a few minutes of commentary by Dr Oppy. Utter waste of time.

[@kingmosesix432]

For anyone wondering why the mr.atheist didnt say mich is coz this is a discussion format... so whoever gives more points.. So its in a way the atheist professor fault.. he could actually take as same time as Abdullah..

[@sunset2.00]

I like polite discussion for the spirit of it.

[@abuabdullah9878]

Karl Marx might, for example, might have said that he didn't believe Capitalism would've endured beyond his own lifetime, but that doesn't mean such a statement is in any way derivable from Marxist theory. Also I don't think just because there isn't any particular "Bible" reference/book that defines Marxist theory, does it follow that Marxist theory is ill-defined and simply, "whatever Marxists say it is". I think that would be a silly copout claim.

[@FlammablePunch]

Wdym?

[@yes-wo7qn]

JazakAllah khair ustath

[@glof2553]

I like Andalusi. Smart man

[@thegroove2000]

Presuppositions are a Muslims overall position or is it based upon knowing? .

[@abduladil7332]

Is he supposedly the scariest athiest? He looks cute. Anyways Good Job Abdullah

[@Hello-vz1md]

In philosophy of religion Read his books

[@claudiucojobv]

Why would you think he is scary? He's a philosopher and an intellectual, usually no the kind of people one associates with anything frightful.

[@AzamatBagatov413]

I have to watch it

[@rafique-fy2iw]

did i hear right when Dr Graham said he disagrees with the State imposing LGBT exposure to children which goes against the parents wishes. If so, is it his own view or the mainstream liberal view?

[@sunset2.00]

He might be convinced by the public influence argument done by Abdul .

[@rafique-fy2iw]

@@sunset2.00 yeah maybe

[@rafique-fy2iw]

@@sunset2.00 yeah maybe

[@mumin9436]

i know many liberal people opposes the exposure of lgbt stuff to kids . i dont know why you are suprised at that

[@rafique-fy2iw]

@@mumin9436 dont know why u hv to make the last statement. sound a bit condescending.. it was just a query bcos sheikh Abdullah uses that argument against liberalism which may imply that its a consequence of liberal philosophy which G. Oppy is defending.. n even if i was truly surprise, why is that odd. u expect everyone to know everything like u?

[@E-g-321]

Could we get the PowerPoint for this debate please?

[@fraznaz4905]

Everything or most of British Legal system could be interpreted or incorporated into an Islamic state.. As andulusi mentioned the core rights of individuals are protected with the main distinction being a shariah oversight. Or Islamic core. The running of a state is more than just we allow everyone to do as thay plaese but to put in certain laws that protect society as a whole.

[@Flum666]

a discussion with graham oppy is like talking to a rocj

[@Just_logic]

But if we want to find the balance between the theory and the practice, which outcome would be favourable??

[@kingsentertainment786]

Very good question. I think it would be Islam that will be creating balance and outcome because if we go back where it all started, the core motivation, for Islam is success in hereafter and accountability of the sins and acknowledgement of Supreme Almighty Authority whereas for liberal/atheism its only to have more pleasure and lesser pain which can easily and have been inevitably overtaken and headed by capitalists, imperialists, colonists, communists and any man who wants to really use this chance of life to its fullest. After all, morality and accountability is only product of human fancies and is limited to restriction, geographical, ethnical or anyways. A lot can be added.

[@Just_logic]

@@kingsentertainment786 Even without the afterlife is Islam. Islam governance is based on human nature. Atheism is dynamic. That means with time one can always shift the origin/reference. Hence with time is base will be whatever you feel at the time. If one wants to recalibrate self, what would one recalibrate to?? With reference or objective morality, one can do wrong but can compare based on the reference and say I was wrong. With no reference you can always rely on “that is my opinion”.

[@kingsentertainment786]

@@Just_logic hmmm....

[@kingkamaro9442]

@@kingsentertainment786 Not really, because islam consider us non muslims as inferiors,and islam seem not to have any problem with slavery.

[@kingsentertainment786]

@@kingkamaro9442 Yes we consider you on wrong path, but Islam has enjoined upon us good treatment of non muslim elements in a Muslim State and if we don't do that, we we will be held accountable for this great sin. If a non-muslim gets bad representation of Islam from a muslim, than that Muslim is responsible for this sin. "Beware, if anyone wrongs a mu`ahid [i.e. a non-Muslim enjoying the protection of Muslim State], or diminishes his right, or forces him to work beyond his capacity, or takes from him anything without his consent, I shall be his adversary on the Day of Judgment” - Muhammad (Abu Dawud). “Whoever killed a mu`ahid shall not smell the fragrance of Paradise though its fragrance can be smelt at a distance of forty years (of traveling).” - Muhammad (Al-Bukhari). So this even further strengthens my argument. This is just a glimpse of what Islam levies on us as muslims, many more like obligatory charity, donation, service, good treatment of kins and neighbours, etc. which are impossible for a selfish gene mindset of a atheist/liberal, whose core motivation is maximizing pleasure.

[@fulanikulani3582]

Barrak Allahu feek

[@nabilrady6767]

Where is the research that sexual relationships diminishes the probability of being happy in marriage?

[@PabloSensei]

The amount of partners?

[@adamlabnaki9216]

this brother is incredible

[@shamsali9903]

Mr Liberal, one thing that appears you do not have knowledge or understanding of a Book that exists but is not written by any human being, which serves as a guidance and instruction for all societies.

[@Rico-Suave_]

Watched all of it

[@Oneummahgeneration]

Just watched some opening points from Graham oppy he doesn’t seem to have a clue about Islamic law and appears to be heavily influenced by an orientalist outlook

[@Hello-vz1md]

He is not an expert on Islam he is a expert on philosophy of religion

[@lunarcalendar368]

@@Hello-vz1md the topic was Islam or liberalism. and Islam is a religion with its own philosophy. Are you saying, professor was not ready for the topic?

[@Hello-vz1md]

@@lunarcalendar368 i don't know if Oppy wasn't ready or not i didn't watch the full discussion yet I was replying the other person who said Oppy don't have a clue on Islamic law

[@Oneummahgeneration]

@@Hello-vz1md if he’s not an expert on it why does he think he can open his mouth about it and debate against it.

[@Hello-vz1md]

@@Oneummahgeneration Nobody is debating anything it's a discussion in the beginning Dr Oppy even said that the topic was given by Abdullah for a discussion Dr Oppy generally talk about topics regarding POR

[@canhaktan9674]

MasaAllah right from the opening statements Abdullah was clear cut and smashed it. Oppy constantly had to pause and was very uncertain about what he was trying to convey.

[@bloodknight6142]

Because Oppy seems to develop his ideas partially in realtime in these discussions. Anyone can talk fast and have a confident rhetorical style but to actually think on these things before giving an answer that takes a bit more.

[@baraji4653]

I think Mr AbduLlah is the true professor in here.

[@ummerfarooq5383]

Face the camera not the camera facing you.

[@homtanks7259]

Get a life 😂

[@abduladil7332]

*Next* response to Oxford debate?

[@orangecaprinun]

20:06

[@jeff_costello]

I don't like the way this conversation was captured.

[@rafayshakeel4812]

Are you talking about the format, mate?

[@jeff_costello]

@@rafayshakeel4812 yes

[@rafayshakeel4812]

@@jeff_costello Same, bro! They should have been sitting on a big table. It's better to see both of the speakers at the same time.

[@StrangeTraveller7860]

Amazing but the setup is not great

[@mysticranger6894]

lol feel like graham didnt wanna be there or was tired. interesting discussion

[@MK-tv4qp]

Maybe because of the different time

[@ganglandsublimity]

He has Parkinson’s

[@ApologeticsAddict]

Well done

[@gulsheraz6738]

This is One of the Strongest Signs That Quran is Preserved till this Day and is Without any Contradiction Despite the fact that Hazrat Muhammad (P.B.U.H) couldn't read or write. The Sign that clearly indicates that Quran is the Word of Allah S.W.T. And Allah S.W.T is not limited as we humans are . We Can't encompass His Knowledge. As a Rational being, We have to accept our limitations. We Can't fix our eyes on the Sun in it's Full swing. According to Science,We have Only 5% knowledge of Universe, while Universe is constantly expanding. All Our Senses work within a Range. Even Our own Body is not Totally under our Control. How?🤔 Well, You may have heard about the Vital Signs. They are 4 in number.If any one of them rises or falls too much , the person dies. They're: 1. Temperature 2. Blood pressure 3. Heart Rate/ Pulse Rate 4.Breathing Rate/ Respiratory Rate Normally, All these Vital Signs are Working Under our Subconscious mind. At the moment, You're Reading this Comment.Your Conscious mind is busy in Understanding and interpreting the Message in this Comment. Meanwhile, Your vitals are being Regulated by the Subconscious mind. Did you stop Reading the Comment to Regulate your Vitals? Definitely No need to do so ... This is One of the Greatest blessings that Allah S.W.T made it so easy for us.(Alhamdulillah) The Vastness of the Universe in comparison to Our knowledge of Universe is Clearly speaking to us: “Hey Man! Don't be ignorant of your limitations. Be humble.” Hope this Helps. Jazakallah hu Khairan!( May Allah grant you the Better Reward)

[@zackhalilovic4753]

The link for the Quran institute is not in the description and the website doesn’t work. They don’t email you when you go on their subscription list either.

[@muhammedraazi6771]

SAME, what did you do about it?

[@abdelkader8556]

Where is the Link Brother ?

[@AbdullahalAndalusi]

It's somewhere around here

[@Hello-vz1md]

@@AbdullahalAndalusi assalaamualikum When will you upload your SpaceTime argument?

[@abdelkader8556]

@@AbdullahalAndalusi but this course was already taught two years ago , ONSITE Not online , according to an article you wrote in your Website in 2019 announcing the release two years ago!!

[@andykris7011]

Is Am is the submission to the will of God . What is the will of God for today.?? Refer to verse 5 chapter 32.

[@ummerfarooq5383]

That's the penalty of warmongerers. You meant to say this instead: Al-Ahzab 33:61 مَّلْعُونِينَۖ أَيْنَمَا ثُقِفُوٓا۟ أُخِذُوا۟ وَقُتِّلُوا۟ تَقْتِيلًا Accursed wherever they are found, [being] seized and massacred completely. Al-Ahzab 33:62 سُنَّةَ ٱللَّهِ فِى ٱلَّذِينَ خَلَوْا۟ مِن قَبْلُۖ وَلَن تَجِدَ لِسُنَّةِ ٱللَّهِ تَبْدِيلًا The (sunnah) way of Allah with those who passed on before; and you will not find in the way of Allah any change. get Quran App: And it will happen, and there is nothing you can do to stop it.

[@Julian-bm9sx]

let's goo

[@srnp0007]

*Liberalism With A Sense of One's Duties & With The Sense of Morality.*

[@alurusandeep5574]

😂😂😂😂

[@srnp0007]

@@alurusandeep5574 :- ?????

[@alurusandeep5574]

@@srnp0007 ask in words

[@srnp0007]

@@alurusandeep5574 :- LOL You Posted Your Reply in Sign Language.