Debate w/ Viewer Who Thinks My Takes Are Right-Wing

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[@ZeDitto3]

This whole conversation Vaush: Do you think this topic is important and valid? Viewer: Yes. Vaush: So we should talk about it. Viewer: No. It sounds too right wing.

[@T-I-M-E.42]

Yea, he literally does exactly the thing.

[@janstefanisin320]

yeah

[@synchronium24]

This is also true of nearly the entire social constructionist wing of trans activism whenever someone challenges their axioms. Viewers of this channel are no exception, though Vaush himself thankfully is.

[@jessicajohnson4992]

@@synchronium24 this is gibberish

[@tubulartom666]

@@jessicajohnson4992 no, this is gibberish; “zudbdo blarg flebb sutrestion nihlted barj clex mukka.”

[@NatsumiTakanawa]

As an intersectional feminist who really hates mysogny, it greatly annoys me how much these terminally online types don't realize how much this exclusionary and hostile approach has made a lot of normies spiteful of leftist philosophies. I also really can't stand the gaslighting of the "it's their fault, it's their problem"/"us vs them" mentality. It borderlines on gender essentialism (which has potential to be transphobic) and ignores that men and boys are also victims of patriarchy. Being compassionate toward the male gender does not equal tolerating mysoginy

[@TitanBait]

I was literally thinking about how this line of argumentation is literally gaslighting. It's looking at societal problems that have huge negative impacts on men and straight up saying "that's not real" "it's your personal fault" "thinking that those are problems means you're a right wing incel" like Jesus fuck man.

[@rarpott]

Well articulated.

[@TheSurrealist.]

Based and basted. 👏

[@KenS1267]

This, 1000 times this. Everyone male, female or nonbinary has grown up and been socialized in this culture. It is no more the man's fault than it is the woman's fault. A man may knowingly or unknowingly take advantage of the patriarchal nature of society and for that he should be held to account but the glee that the study in question that showed that a lot of young men were not making connections with other people was met with by certain sorts was chilling.

[@MikeBenko]

Listening to this guy one has to ask himself, does this person believe men live on a different planet?

[@lillily4655]

“Your arguments are correct but they sound mean UwU” That’s the entire argument. Thats literally the entire argument.

[@davo312]

i remember learning reading comprehension in school. maybe these people should reread some of those texts about being able to use language to say the same thing in different ways

[@Axymerion]

@@davo312 You're assuming they actually want to engage with the argument, which is often not true. They just want to check the vibes and mark buzzwords, not actually think what you're saying. If you said some extremely racist/homophobic shit, but used exclusively leftie language, I bet you could get a sizeable group of those 'lefties' to agree with you.

[@jorgesantander7454]

YES thank you. Pisses me the fuck up.

[@davo312]

@@Axymerion that’s a fair point. i just wish more people that call themselves leftists actually had values associated with it instead of just trying to blindly look the part or whatever

[@jonm.678]

Exactly- this caller is insufferable

[@Fuckalope]

Wow. "I think the progressive way is for men to handle it themselves" most self aware liberal

[@johnnybravo2926]

I heard this same line and came looking for comments on it 😂. Literally what a dumb take

[@jordanmoore7340]

"The progressive way for men to handle men's issues is to deal with it themselves. They're men, after all. What are ya gonna do? Cry about it? Pussy."

[@terrystevens3998]

asking an oppressed class of people that isn’t respected in society to fix it for their oppressors is like asking the slaves to free themselves. It is basic leftist thought that the only way to end a hierarchical system is for those with the power to educate themselves and stop upholding it.

[@nackskott12]

“Toxic masculinity is bad and we should address it” *also* “Men should just toughen up, stop crying about it and deal with it on their own like a real man.” This guest is genuinely toxically masculine still, they haven't addressed their views on the way men are expected to act. They've only adjusted their toxic masculinity to be more benevolent to women.

[@terrystevens3998]

@@nackskott12 look at that you created a separate quote strawman. That isn’t what the guest said.. it is more along the lines of women need to do self care and focus on our own needs. In a society where speaking up to men just makes you a target for men who won’t respect what you have to say anyway it’s not fair to expect women to do the lifting and emotional work for men. It is dangerous and creates backlash like Tate’s that women then need to fear.

[@manjackson2772]

They're just uncomfortable with talking about men's issues at all. That's it.

[@Jayday12345678910]

Men can only solve men's issues.

[@nobleradical2158]

If only they could just say it…

[@SystemFailing]

I actually think this is the most enlightening video Vaush has ever put out when it comes to understanding why he’s such a controversial figure on the online left. This guy literally doesn’t disagree with a thing Vaush says, only that he said it at all, or how he chose to say it. It says something about our tendency to trust others’ opinions more or less based on whether or not they’re coated in the group inspeak we deem acceptable. EDIT: Like, the way he says “the way we talk about this issue on the left is by talking about X, Y, or Z.” And what he’s actually saying is “we talk AROUND” this issue on the left. He doesn’t disagree with Vaush’s premise, he disagrees that something like men’s issues should ever be described as such, because that’s what people on the right say.

[@johnnybravo2926]

The fact that the guy had to literally pause and try to FIND disagreement with Vaush because he couldn’t initially think of one was really telling. He did it several times too

[@hardlyworking_]

username does *not* check out, this is a GOOD take my friend 👍

[@veemie8148]

This comment fr

[@LaSerpentDEden]

Good take Jake 👍🏻

[@jambott5520]

@@johnnybravo2926 not everyone is quick at remembering stuff though.

[@macaron3141592653]

The fact that he couldn't agree that men are more violent then women is such a huge red flag about this guy's perspective. He's so afraid of being politically incorrect that he can't admit a well known and intuitive statistic.

[@ASDeckard]

Men are about 10 times more violent than women. ....Black people are about 17 times more violent than white people. Which means, yes, black women are measurably more violent than white men. .......Oh, I'm sorry, are we not allowed to admit to some statistics?

[@ace9resistance]

Yes, this is what I was thinking of too. People have to stop being so polite and scared about their words. Just stop being scared and the world would be a better place.

[@zacheryeckard3051]

"Are more violent" essentially or "are more violent" in that they commit more violence?

[@notmyname213]

@@zacheryeckard3051 it's covered in the video. It's a descriptive statement, not a prescription of how things are meant to be

[@trainlover6099]

Oh yeah this guy is like peak manipulative male feminist

[@ofanichan]

I said this in your last video about this topic and I’ll say it again. For YEARS I’ve seen feminists say that men should talk about men’s issues more at their own account - as in not just use it as a gotcha whenever women talk about their issues. But the second Vaush makes a thread about men’s loneliness. People call him a reactionary and weird for talking about men’s issues.

[@xXRickTrolledXx]

Toxic masculinity in practice

[@zacheryeckard3051]

Well, yeah. There's a real problem with double standards in feminism. Egalitarian Feminists claiming they're the whole movement and Nonegalitarian Feminists demonstrating that clearly isn't the case.

[@INTERNETDWARF]

You could take this a step further - feminist groups criticize men's rights groups and say they shouldn't exist because feminism is inclusive of men's rights. But try to bring men's issues up in any feminist forum or environment... you'll get instantly shouted down. So you take those same issues to a men's rights group and get called alt right. I'm super left wing, to be clear. But feminists treatment of men's rights causes it to tend towards extremist alt right. If it was accepted under the left wing umbrella, it would be far less of the bogeyman they are worried about. They are literally creating what they hate.

[@ofanichan]

@@INTERNETDWARF it SHOULD be accepted. Like it just makes sense. The right will never try to fix toxic masculinity. So shaming men who wants to talk about it is just ridiculous and puts everything we’ve come so far for, so far back

[@INTERNETDWARF]

@@ofanichan oh I'm totally I'm agreement. But worse still, the fact that feminists / the broader left aren't willing to discuss or consider men's issues literally drives men into the arms of the alt right, en masse. Young men who encounter these issues hear a voice speaking to them, and guess what, the only voice doing that is the alt right. I've talked to other guy friends about this before and got them to wake up a bit and escape the alt right pipeline. To realize that just because these guys speak to you on one issue, doesn't mean you need to agree with them on every issue. But it would be far better to have progressive voices accept men and their issues rather than immediately alienate them.

[@c.m.9369]

If a parent teaches their son, that men don‘t cry and always need to be strong, they contribute to toxic masculinity. It doesn‘t matter if that parent is your father or your mother. And if you think these are lessons that are being taught to boys by the only or mainly their fathers, I think you‘re really wrong. This kind of stuff comes from ALL sides. Which is why toxic masculinity is simply a societal problem. And everybody needs to work on it.

[@newguy7209]

My mother and sister were both guilty of this behavior.

[@cookies23z]

deadass watched "Arcane" with my mom because she heard me and my brother talking about the show occasionally and likes to watch stuff with me early on, when the characters are crying at dead parents, she scoffed "really, why is he crying? his sister is right there and she isnt" in regards to young Vi crying while powder holds her I told her it was actually a girl, and she took it back... but only because it was a girl

[@nackskott12]

@@cookies23z Ooooo that's really bad, I heard stuff like that a lot in my household from a man-hatey mother. She didn't even realize what she was saying a lot of the time and when I pointed it out, she thought I was being a misogynist. She'd say stuff like “if men are being abused by their partner, they wouldn't be a real man if they moved out or ran away” and “the world would be basically perfect if men didn't exist” and many other bangers. That tracks cos she was physically abusive to my father as well. That stuff is really harmful and (more extreme aspects aside) frighteningly common.

[@Devon9698]

It's just like any other social institution. We were all born into it and it has shaped us whether we realize it or not. We all contribute, even if not directly. And that's ok

[@GregXHunterz]

@The Manifold Dude u couldn't have summed up toxic masculinity much better. That's exactly what I understand from it.

[@c.m.9369]

Ok, this is frustrating. He clearly thinks that it doesn‘t matter how real a problem is… if it‘s an issue the far-right considers to be a problem, we shouldn‘t talk about it, because it would justify the far-rights position… He considers the acceptance of these problems as real „framing“. It‘s not. Accepting men‘s lonelyness and men‘s unfulfilled desire for sex as „incel framing“. It‘s not. The framing would then be blaming women for it. Or all the nonsense incels blame as causes for these problems. THAT‘s the framing. I HATE this attitude! Because it almost certainly forces you into positions where you have to deny actual reality!

[@MagusMirificus]

It almost reminds me of transphobia. "I'm not downplaying the struggles of this group! I'm categorically denying that the group exists or can experience collective struggles!" In this guy's mind misogyny is when you believe a man's suffering isn't his fault, and feminism is when you believe it always is, without exception.

[@19Szabolcs91]

Yeah, people like this viewer are totally insane. Imagine the far-right (real or by grift) starting to care about environmentalism, then idiots like him will immediately embrace the fossil fuel industry.

[@sub-harmonik]

I mean (heterosexual) men not being able to get laid is obviously partially a product of women's standards. Those standards are to some degree arbitrary and 'aesthetic'. I wouldn't necessarily call that the 'fault' of women but I do think people should examine their values if they use arbitrary social markers to consider someone more or less attractive. (e.g. I've seen many women considering markers like not having a 4-poster bed as unattractive, while they're praising diogenes or some shit)

[@cameronhajjafar2585]

Honestly this debate was so exhausting. Subnautica rly helped me make it through it lmao.

[@puckerings]

Exactly. It's an ideological belief that every right-wing person is wrong about EVERYTHING. Which is obviously ridiculous. Right-wingers are wrong about many extremely important things, but they're not wrong about absolutely everything.

[@garywebb2432]

If Vaush is Right Wing then I'm Elon Musk

[@oddjam]

Nice try Jimmy Dore

[@TheSquareheadgamer]

Please don't buy Vuash

[@alpaczka6078]

@@TheSquareheadgamer Vwoosh is Put In in polish. Coincidence? probably.

[@distorted_imagination]

No! IM Elon Musk!

[@beck2310]

This, is Elon Musk. Tesla co-founder and CEO...

[@radioffIine]

THE REASON IT SOUNDS SO RIGHT WING BECAUSE WE LET THOSE PEOPLE CAPITALIZE ON MEN-FOCUSED ISSUES FOR FAR TOO LONG sorry I’m maddd

[@oddduck2003]

It's true tho you should be angry because now people are weird about it & we turn more people away because we aren't willing at even the lowest bar just to talk about it let alone fucking fix it

[@Colddirector]

I just don't get how these people fail to realise that refusing to address these issues is straight up just letting the right win.

[@hyperboliccancers3269]

​@@ColddirectorThat's because the left has the blessing of capitalism and the government behind it. It doesn't matter if you hate it, nor does it matter how miserable things get, society will continue on its set course aka an endless Huxlean nightmare.

[@elusivefalcon8692]

This dude made 0 arguments during this entire debate, it’s mega frustrating, it’s literally down to “well this seems weird to me” and I hate it.

[@WarsWorth]

Which is exactly the same ideology republicans use to hate trans people

[@hyperboliccancers3269]

This is why it's bad to ban violence. There is no saving some people.

[@renvargas5042]

The amount of times this person literally said “well this just seems weird________ to me” is so frustrating

[@AkerfeldtTveitan-yi4xm]

This entire debate is one huge attempt at tone policing Vaush.

[@The_Chosen_Heretic]

Their analysis ignored that women also exhibit toxically masculine behaviors.

[@markbrandt3252]

Seriously! I’ve experienced a lot more toxic masculinity from women than other men . I’m shocked this sort of thing doesn’t get talked about more.

[@davo312]

the closest this guy gets to acknowledging that is saying “women may contribute a little”. he clearly have never seen a woman roast another woman before, they can get way more brutal than men

[@puckerings]

Plus there's the fact that mothers don't just raise their daughters. They raise their sons too. So the idea that mothers don't contribute to the societal standards imposed on their sons that result in toxic masculinity is just...ridiculous.

[@stoneagealienz874]

@@davo312 I wouldn't say roasting somebody is toxic masculinity. That's just being rude. For me it's more like a mother telling her son not to cry because he's a boy and boys don't do that.

[@brandi598]

@@davo312 a woman roasting another woman is mainly internalized misogyny which links back to the patriachial society we live in. I do agree women can reinforce toxic gender roles but I think it all loops back to the root societal issue of gender inequality.

[@SemiIocon]

Shark put it perfectly when he said "when half of the population has a problem, we all have a problem".

[@AlexKlindt]

This guy is absolutely terrified at the notion of optics that could potentially cause him to not be seen as pristine.

[@ilyafoskin]

I noticed. He takes a long time to answer questions because he's always trying to think of the least problematic way to phrase it. Around the 20 minute mark it happens a few times

[@AlexKlindt]

@@ilyafoskin, he's more worried about being seen as inoffensive than actually having good positions.

[@AkerfeldtTveitan-yi4xm]

@robfoskin685 This is a great example of how being hyperagreeable can make you come across as very fake. By comparison Vaush (who's definitely calculated when he debates people) comes across as very genuine and spontaneous.

[@ryanb5127]

It sometimes catches me off guard how eloquent vaush can present his points when a debate doesn't get escalated.

[@thatsinteresting3415]

It's has to be eloquent when you brain is being bombarded by virulent stupidity.

[@thesaltybeard1793]

To be fair this "debate" is the same talking point on repeat trying to explain basic shit to someone who is slightly more sentient than a brick wall from what it seems. Vaush explains his points in 15 different ways and this person just defaults back to "I just think it makes people nervous..." like...okay? Maybe that says more about those people than it does about what vaush was saying in the first place??? IT PERSONALLY MAKES ME NERVOUS WHEN SOMEONE DOESNT WANT SOMETHING SPOKEN ABOUT ON THEIR SIDE OF THE COMPASS BECAUSE ITS A THING THE OTHER SIDE TALKS ABOUT A LOT, TOO. Like I find that disturbing. The right talks about class struggle, too. Should we stop talking about it because they're doing it? Don't wanna sound like a right winger. This is team sports bullshit. "The bad guy had a point" is a common sentiment. But having a point doesn't make you good. It's what your proposed solution to that point is and how it manifests that matters. Ugh. Ugh. Men's issues make me nervous. Ugh. Ugh. Lol

[@Vamooso]

@@thesaltybeard1793 I think his problem is more that, as he said he grew up in a very misogynistic area, and him following right wing media such as Tucker Carlson, the fact no one else that he listens to means that the feelings created when talking about these issues, was, as he said, disgust. I do think Vaush is right that talking about these issues more simply not from a 'fox' perspective can help people not have such automatic negative responses, people on the left are supposedly well aware of how using language negatively can poison words, it's just confusing how much selective blindness occurs.

[@acetrainer5564]

Only 12 minutes in and I can tell this won't go anywhere. Vaush says he considers a type of person cucks, and the guest replies with "You think they derive sexual satisfaction from seeing their partner make love with someone else?" As if he doesn't understand the meaning. He establishes that he will only accept strict definition and precise language. Then later, he says "I think there's some meaning being communicated there that isn't part of the dictionary definition" oh ok, so it's alright when YOU do it? This dishonesty is a huge red flag.

[@nightlydrugs6927]

Yeah when I heard that I was like oh fuck this is gonna get stuck really quick.

[@miwiarts]

When that happened, I got so doomer about the rest of the video, but I think they mamaged to reconcile in the end. I think the guys is just a nervous autist, like the rest of us.

[@Alex-0597]

Holy shit, those statements were within a couple minutes of each other. To be charitable to the guy, maybe he said the thing about cuckoldry to get Vaush to be more specific and understood the general feeling just fine, but that's still really funny.

[@Devon9698]

sometimes I really think people are so concerned with the vibes and aesthetics of leftism than actually having principled opinions. I feel like you see it so often whenever men's issues are brought up, cause you get a lot of dissenters who's ONLY problem with the argument is that the vibe isn't 100% leftist

[@Darius-scifieart]

This. The guest's argument seems to boil down to complaining that Vaush isn't saying the right leftie buzzwords every 10 seconds instead of actually hearing the argument

[@juvedoo99]

In the US and most developed countries leftism is definitely an aesthetic choice above objective ideals that can better society.

[@whatsupinspace854]

A lot of people, on every side, don't want principles positions - they want positions that align with their tribe.

[@zacheryeckard3051]

@@juvedoo99 Also Vietnam, China, Cuba... It's not just a first-world problem.

[@juvedoo99]

@@zacheryeckard3051 Nah it’s mostly a developed country problem. The countries you mentioned actually have a pretty well defined leftist Ideology without the wokescold facade of countries like the US.

[@patricknoll81]

As a masculine person with generally socially progressive views, it is painful to see so many people I usually agree with refuse to address the issues of a significant portion of the world. You don't have to completely change all of your opinions just to acknowledge there is something you haven't accounted for, unless your perspective was defined by excluding that group from the start.

[@barcotics1880]

its because they actually dont think its an issue, but something that is desired

[@sudsandstuff7228]

Seriously. All it takes is a “I didn’t even think about that aspect. Tell me more if you can”

[@IRGeamer]

It's a pattern of dismissing any issue that doesn't fit into their ideological box. Men are angry misogynists, so any loneliness or social issues are their own fault, women cannot reinforce toxic masculinity, and shouldn't bother even acknowledging the issue (/s). It's the same toxic mentality that convinces people that only representatives of the dominant group can possibly be racist and minorities hatred for other races is excused because they don't have the maximum power to inflict that hatred on others as much as the worst of the worst in the hegemony. A zero-sum, black or white, all or nothing, mentality that makes the situation worse.

[@bestaqua23]

@@barcotics1880 yes seriously when I heard him say "men should take care of this themselves" the first thing I thought was "oh you just don't care if people suffer if you can shrug off responsibility" ?! When people suffer we help them because they are people and they deserve not to suffer . It should end at thet

[@lucidkyla]

@@bestaqua23 mmmm i get what they’re saying. most men don’t hold themselves accountable to feminist ideals, and also haven’t taken women seriously on topics such as mental health and toxic masculinity until recently which took so much labour and whining on feminists part, MGTOW and andrew tate are symbolic of how exhausting it is to take on the emotional labour of men and to try to help them unlearn misogyny and just have it thrown back in the face, to see men continue to be toxically masculine and not take mens mental health seriously and for feminists and women to be blamed for all of it. i think clowning on how men aren’t fucking is kind of cathartic for people (not just women) who have tried so hard to hold people to a feminist/progressive/ high/whatever standard and see most be so unwilling to unlearn sexism. but like wcyd :/

[@brian_cream]

Half this conversation was this person saying "Your words sound icky" and confusing social problems with biological essentialism. Edit: after listening to the rest, all things considered this was one of the better debates and i think it at least served to bring up important points.

[@jordanmoore7340]

The essentialism point was so weird. Vaush was saying "men are taught to be like this, women are taught to be like this..." and guest responds "sounds kinda like biological essentialism," like dude are you even trying?

[@hyperboliccancers3269]

​@@jordanmoore7340That's because "biological essentialism" is a meaningless buzzword used by people who are so hopelessly stupid that they geniunely think humans are not sexually dimorphic.

[@cogsworther1639]

1: "Aren't you worried about men's mental health?" 2: "Yes, of course." 1: "So progressive communities should address these concerns?" 2: "Hmmm. . . I just feel kind of weird about *the framing.* "

[@cronizle]

Such a great example of a person doing the thing while arguing that that thing doesn't happen.

[@michaelwardle7633]

“Men are trained to be X” “That’s gender essentialism.” *IS LITERALLY THE OPPOSITE OF ESSENTIALISM*

[@michaelwardle7633]

I really think that what’s tripping this dude up is that he’s being served confident, direct, and “to-the-point” answers and queries- which he’s probably only ever heard from right wing, brain-rotted weirdos with podcasts.

[@Kekktye]

This dude's mindset is why I was staunchly right-leaning and didn't understand my identity as a woman for most of my life. It's so anti-intersectional. You shouldn't be made uncomfortable by discussing this topic.

[@eelvis1674]

Saying that you don't think Women should be involved in the struggle to dismantle toxic masculinity is basically just like saying "women shouldn't be involved in their struggle for suffrage, its men who are at fault and therefore they should deal with it themselves" Not only is this ineffective but it is highly devisive. Pitting men and women against eachother one of the core things which maintains toxic masculinity

[@ジュレジュ]

Also notice how this puts men in a paternalistic position over women. It's literally patriarchy with extra steps and the veneer of feminism.

[@hyperboliccancers3269]

People from affluent backgrounds tend to be extremely entitled. So it makes sense.

[@JonathanMandrake]

This is the same reactive argument used to say "Black People should deal with Black issues", it's inherently a bad idea to make any group of people responsible for the problems they face

[@theshermantanker7043]

Pitting men and women against each other seems to be all some left wingers know how to do, unfortunately. And then when men try to defend themselves against some of the more outrageous claims they're laughed at and told "YoU'rE pArT oF tHe PrObLeM". No one seems to understand that we're supposed to coorperate

[@anarchohelenism]

Patriarchy affects everyone. That's kind of the point.

[@hyperboliccancers3269]

Decoy target. Left wing ideology helped and perpetuate this situation.

[@nyalan8385]

The fundamental concept of feminism is that society is largely based around the concept of the patriarchy, which is a dictation on how men and women should engage with society. It puts excess pressure on men and provides little benefits besides material ones, and it prevents women from having the same opportunities and freedoms that men do, and discourages them from pursuing the same paths. Feminism exists as a movement to dismantle the patriarchy, so by definition feminism benefits and takes action in favor of both women *and* men. But smooth brain twitter leftists take feminism as “men bad women good”. Truly based giga chad feminists realize that pursuing solutions to both womens problems and mens problems is the only way to dismantle the patriarchy.

[@nackskott12]

The part nobody is talking about that I find infuriating is the caller resorting to anti-intellectualism. “Well you can't prove men are lonelier, oh they have? Well have they controlled for x and y? Oh they have? Well I guess we don't know” That is disgusting. Thought-terminating shit right there.

[@oddduck2003]

Pretty much! I don't know if it's a tactic to burn you out so you just fold and think their way or it is simply ignorance. Either way it's like you said thought terminating shit

[@kinalbrien6357]

my dude is also hilariously stupid. At about 25 minutes in they talk about the results of a study and the guy says that a study with a sample size of TWO THOUSAND can not be representative, lmao. Like what the hell is that guy smoking? Gallup does like a thousand people or less! Like the dude obviously has no idea about anything surrounding conducting actual scientific work.

[@Dannysapphire]

Only half way through the video and I can't stand how they keep up bringing up how Vaushs take wasn't socialist or leftist enough when from my understanding the leftist position is addressing and understanding the problems all groups of people face. Including men.

[@fjordojustice]

Ya, all his examples about how it didn't look leftist enough were literally "you should have just said that socialism would help this issue".

[@TwoForFlinchin1]

There is a contingent of people who think feminism only means female advocacy. It's somewhat demoralizing.

[@Colddirector]

It's so incredibly telling when even describing the issue in any real detail sounds like an incel talking point to this person. Gee its almost like ignoring an entire gender's problems just lets other people with worse ideas monopolise them.

[@crono276]

@@TwoForFlinchin1 well you see, it's in the name...

[@theshermantanker7043]

Someone else said it here very eloquently: Left wingers often see men as the villain in all these societal problems, so "Since they caused all these problems they can face the consequences themselves" which completely ignores the fact that the average man didn't will society into becoming this way

[@markmahowald7866]

Sweet Jesus. This person can’t seem to separate their political views on men from discussion of actual human beings in society

[@Yumenga]

I knew this guy was dishonest when Vaush asked if men are more violent than women and he couldn't answer the question.

[@ilyafoskin]

I wouldn't say he was dishonest. He was trying to think if he could answer it without sounding problematic. His primary indicator for how progressive someone is seems to be how progressive they sound or how deferential they are to left-wing framing and how apologetic they are for accidental right-wing framing. I would give him the benefit of the doubt and say that he cares more about the issues than the framing in general because he was calling to debate Vaush's framing so he was inevitably going to sound very fixated on that particular issue

[@IRGeamer]

@@ilyafoskin "I wouldn't say he was dishonest. He was trying to think if he could answer it without sounding problematic." And this is NOT dishonest how??? Not giving an open, honest and clear answer and instead struggling to code your word to give the "correct" optics is very much dishonest.

[@discipleoferis549]

@@IRGeamer Framing is only dishonest if it actively obfuscates salient points. Otherwise, framing is an incredibly important part of discourse and an important part of effective communication in general. The problem I had with the guest was him seeming to care more about the framing than the actual underlying issues. That's not necessarily dishonest either, but it does show bad priorities, in my opinion.

[@ilyafoskin]

@@IRGeamer Well he still answered honestly, he was just being overly careful to make sure he didn't say anything problematic. His behaviour wasn't due to him trying to hide his positions, it was because he was too empathetic towards anyone who might be triggered by something he said. He's probably overly careful about everything he says in his day to day life too and likely has a nervous disposition. If he was being dishonest, I doubt Vaush would have been so cordial the whole way through. Sure his perspective on discourse shows he's probably always missing the forest for the trees but it was just a difference in perspectives.

[@cenauge]

​@@IRGeamer It's only dishonest if the open and clear answer is fundamentally different than the coded and optically "correct" answer. Couching your answer in a million caveats is potentially more accurate and honest as an answer, however annoying it is, if all of those caveats are correct. As an example: if you said "men are more violent than women," I could probably come up with a certain subset of men and a certain subset of women where that statement is not true. And then you very easily counter with "I mean in general." But "in general" is a caveat, and a code to signify that you understand there are circumstances not conforming to the statement you are about to make.

[@NewsAtNought]

"The prediction that females will receive milder sentencing outcomes receives such consistent support from a wide range of studies [...] that it may be one of the best established facts regarding criminal justice outcomes." Just a quote from one study I found reading up after this discussion. This was so frustrating it gave me a stomach ache! Jesus.

[@PlatinumAltaria]

Men are lonely, women are also lonely. Clearly this isn't just a gender problem, it's an issue with how society lacks ANY tools for building new relationships outside of work.

[@lyudmilapavlichenko7551]

Good point. Restructuring cities to create walking and gathering areas would help while helping climate change too.

[@davo312]

also more freedom to choose working hours and better pay will allow people to have more time to actually have social lives

[@Nerobyrne]

Holy crap America really is a failed state. I meet people all the time outside of work

[@thepicausno5561]

Men are statistically less likely to have friends than women. Cleary this is a gendered issue as well.

[@Fuckalope]

@@Nerobyrne what

[@roberthuman8091]

Subnautica is based because it’s all about building bases.

[@shuumatsunojoshua]

I don't think you can get more based than that.

[@SirKemzyGodle]

Seabased bases are based indeed

[@lyudmilapavlichenko7551]

I built a tree house once.

[@TheSurrealist.]

Baste

[@davo312]

lil b would be proud

[@ZachRM95]

This is the kind of guy that when there's a domestic violence against a man that's been committed by a female partner. Will 100% without a doubt says its the guys fault somehow.

[@curvingfyre6810]

Djmuel type beat

[@LaSerpentDEden]

@@ianwazowski5607 not a strawman, it's called a prédiction. Can debate-brained retards give the "THAT'S ____ FALLACY" Bullshit a rest for a little bit? It makes you look like you don't know what you're talking about. Which I guess is accurate. But still.

[@Kekktye]

I love how this issue is so universally understood by trans people of any persuasion. It's the perfect refutation. It's always these cis people that build their understanding of sexism around fixed social roles instead of fluid experiences that are made uncomfortable by this topic.

[@UNSCMarine117]

Based trans people.

[@LaSerpentDEden]

TRANS MEN TALK ALL THE TIME ABOUT HOW LONELY THEY ARE NOW (dampened with the euphoria of being seen as your chosen gender I guess) It makes me SOOO frustrated as a transwoman when people don't understand these issues. It's such a cis problem.

[@TheBiggestMoronYouKnow]

Persuasion?

[@Kekktye]

@@TheBiggestMoronYouKnow Orientation? I mean like, trans guys, girls or anything else.

[@padrianfrazier]

The real subtext is that Vaush said it, and most people are unwilling to give him the benefit of the doubt, interpreting everything he says in bad faith.

[@themightymcb7310]

Normally I'd agree with this, but Shark got similarly dogpiled for his lukewarm takes on this as well. This is reactionary feminist behavior, no more, no less.

[@zikakuto]

Back in 2019, Liz Plank wrote a book about this called "For the Love of Men From Toxic to a More Mindful Masculinity" This is literally in the blurb: "For both women looking to guide the men in their lives and men who want to do better and just don’t know how, For the Love of Men will lead the conversation on men's issues in a society where so much is changing, but gender roles have remained strangely stagnant." The book was hailed as a step forward in addressing toxic masculinity and 3 years later, Vaush says the exact same thing and is instead vilified smh.

[@doublinx2]

It's less so that Vanish said it and more so that feminist positions on men's wellness issues seem to be a trash fire atm.

[@jo0rd73]

Terminally online needs to be included in the next DSM

[@lunaMKultra]

The guest immediately hand wringing when vaush talked about the externalities and consequences of toxic masculinity calling them bad gender stereotypes makes me think they’d rather blame the hegemonic group rather than the system constructed

[@johb3930]

This guy is so arrogant and sure that he has the correct position when he doesn't even have a properly formed position. He's so sure that Vaush is the one missing something in his delivery and can't recognize that the problem might be the people like him who can't interpret it correctly.

[@Grimmbros1214]

basically all of these arguments are “this makes people nervous” “this sounds really right-wing” (which is funny because acknowledging sociological roots of personal problems is a major left wing foundation) he just doesn’t rly argue very strongly about whether vaush is right or wrong, just how it makes people feel, which always annoys me, because that’s really vague and difficult to have a productive discussion about.

[@titaniawallace4223]

it feels like a lot of this conversation boils down to "Ok, what do you mean by this" "What I mean is this" "Ok, so what you're saying is that" "No, I am not saying that" "Oh, well it sounds really close to that"

[@eetnen9902]

Caller is super annoying when they talk about the discrepancy in sentencing. He admits that Vaush knows more about the subjects and still he immeditely dismisses Vaush´s argument.

[@waterwarrior1382]

For a guy that watches a lot of Tucker Carlson, they sure don't seem to realize what actually makes him bad. Tucker rails against Disney all the time but if you think thats even slightly comparable to what a leftist says about Disney you're turning your brain off. I almost feel like this guy would argue the sky is red if Tucker says its blue

[@LaSerpentDEden]

Omg yes thank you I couldn't think of a more perfect analogy. Could you imagine if I as a leftist complained about Disney's monopoly on the market and how they push shitty films by underpaid and overworked employees while buying up huge plots of land to turn into asphalt. Parking lots are such a fucking waste and I implore anyone to look at the ratio of park/parking lot at Disney. IMAGINE if this caller then told me that all sounded right wing because tucker Carlson also hates Disney. Fuuuck off. He's doing it for such a different reason and that is IMPORTANT.

[@Alex-0597]

It does feel like this guy thinks that conservatives are ontologically evil and so any time you say a thing that a conservative has also said you are being ontologically evil. So if a conservative says the sky is blue because of Jewish mind control lasers, a leftist saying the sky is blue because of light refraction is accepting a right wing framing of the issue.

[@rane9096]

An environment where it is not safe to disagree or considered “taboo” or “cringe” for even looking at it from the opposite angle is, not only a dishonest framework, but also our ostracized future on the “left”. I don’t know how else to put it, this idea of “I’ve heard a right winger say this, so you must be a rightoid” is not only stupid and disingenuous, it’s the very thing that Vaush’s guest was claiming the whole time; “DANGEROUS”. The idea of a debated issue being talked about being “dangerous” suggests that we should have a “safer”.. way of discussing the matter while actually wanting to ignore it completely because you won’t take the time to find a way to “code” the language, yes we should always tread carefully with our words to ensure we don’t harm others, we should also ensure that real world issues are not wiped from the table or addressed simply because certain people *could* be uncomfortable with the subject. This is literally what authoritarians and totalitarians do.. “For Your Safety” has been -and will forever be- *The* vehicle for authoritarian / totalitarian control over life, it will be how your rights are restricted and your freedoms; constricted. If people begin complaining about “safety” you can bet that a politician planted the idea

[@yourneighbourtodoro]

This guy is saying Vaush sounds like a right-winger because he's willing to discuss men's issues, which the left has given the right a monopoly on discussing. Does he not see the sort of circular argument here? "We shouldn't discuss men's issues because right-wingers discuss men's issues because we shouldn't discuss men's issues." Like, yeah, of course everyone who talks about a topic is going to sound sussy if you never earnestly engage with the topic in your own community. As a leftist big man boy man big leftist boy man who likes to discuss men's issues, it's wild to me how many times I've seen leftist feminists say that men's issues are feminist issues, that patriarchy also hurts men, but when it comes time to discuss men's issues from a leftist feminist man's perspective, those same people start shifting on their heels and falling back on slogans like "Women don't owe men sex," as if the fact that you're speaking from a man's perspective means you're not speaking from a feminist perspective.

[@bestaqua23]

I think the wrong starting point of all of this is the assumption that men are not having sex because women are rejecting them and we don't actually have any proof of that happening on a larger scale. We know that men are getting more lonely than women but that doesn't tell us anything about the circumstance . Most of these lonely men seem to be not talking to anyone and therefore there is no basis to assume that they're loneliness is because "women don't want them" since it's pretty obvious they never had a chance to find out

[@6dhypercube740]

Exactly. That's a far more reasonable possibility than the notion that women's standards have suddenly shot up in the space of a few years. Not only is there no plausible mechanism for the latter but it also tracks more closely with what incels actually believe.

[@Necroskull388]

But that’s not the starting point we had to this conversation. The starting point to this conversation was exactly what you said it should be, but wokescolds read into it “Oh, so you’re saying that women are just getting higher standards and it’s their fault,” anyway, because they’re made uncomfortable by any sympathetic discussion of mens’ issues.

[@Robbay363]

But I haven't seen anyone on the left make that claim. I think broader social isolation and toxic masculinity absolutely factor into this issue. It's just weird the way a lot of people on the left seem to just not want to take the problem seriously.

[@mistake1197]

@@Robbay363 not just not wanting to take the issues seriously. It almost feels like they are repulsed and offended that the issue is even being looked at in a sympathetic framing.

[@bestaqua23]

@@Robbay363 thay haven't made that claim but it's the only thing the tracks with the "men should solve it themselves" way of thinking. After all men cannot themselves solve things like lack of free public cultural events or long work hours however if we assume "men bad" going to therapy and deconstructing their toxic masculinity ( which indeed they can do themselves ) would solve the problem . After all it's pretty obvious it's not the man with money and social power that are suffering from loneliness so it should be obvious that these are not the men who can change things in society by themselves

[@michaelwerkov3438]

This guy saying "this would make a lot of leftists nervous" is exactly the point. They get nervous and deny truths that they dont like or don't fit their ironically rigid mental frameworks. They're all about people can be and identify however they want... except the way that it is

[@notdeadyet41]

yo dont be transphobic- cringe af

[@hyperboliccancers3269]

​@@notdeadyet41Now to be fair, when in the history of humanity has a trans person not been cringe? And do two cringes make a based?

[@joshscott6514]

7 minutes in they were making right-wing arguments. 1. Treating men as a monolith by claiming these are men's problems exclusively and no one else in society should have to deal with it. ( completely disregarding that some men aren't in the same boat). 2. A lot of their arguments reek of the conservative "personal responsibility" trope. "This is a men's issue, so men alone need to shoulder the load of fixing it". 3. "Watching the yard burn while the house is on fire" is an argument that would be better used AGAINST their arguments than for their arguments, especially as a leftist. This person is in fact the one ignoring the house; which is the societal system that created these issues, in favor of watching the yard burn; in this case men, but in any other scenario this is what conservatives do. "Maybe black people just need to stop committing crimes", "they have too many fatherless households", etc.

[@DarkExcalibur42]

...damn, the argument against Vaush's position did more to convince me of Vaush's position than Vaush's counterarguments. lol and i'm ace and never want any sex.

[@isabelmcgaugh711]

It feels like this is an extension of the original negative reaction to his take, which is that “don’t blame men” = “it’s woman’s fault” which just isn’t the same thing?

[@60wattmoon]

Vaush: Men are lonelier on average and this is a social problem; patriarchy's effect on men is a social problem; women can perpetuate toxic masculinity. This Guy: Don't you see how you sound like Tucker Carlson? All of this guy's non-points are completely based on vibes and hand-wringing. Good lord. I wish leftists weren't so c*cked about speaking plainly about subjects that aren't even taboo. It comes across as having less conviction in your ideas and more angst about seeming aggressive.

[@Mirrorthrone68]

This person is allergic to acknowledging mens problems, holy moly.

[@Mirrorthrone68]

@@morgancody6752 Well said

[@robynreanimates3503]

I'm gonna be a bit uncharitable. Most anyone who finds Vaush's language on this unclear, _wants_ to find it unclear. You can't hear somebody talk about men's issues in this way and think they're a reactionary without some unfair bias. It's either VDS or a wider desire for leftists to not talk about men's issues

[@soadjunkie7623]

This is why I like Vaush. He may not be right on everything but at least he knows how to communicate leftist philosophy without sounding like he’s never touched grass.

[@yvancluet8146]

If I hear the word framing ONE MORE GODDAMN TIME I SWEAR

[@markd.s.8625]

me with the eord "primarily" after the rgr debate

[@worm.9008]

Me with "Framework" after yesterday's debate

[@UNSCMarine117]

*framing*

[@officialzoboomoofoo1767]

This person talks about framing while talking about toxic masculinity running in people's veins. I know it's a metaphor but what are people supposed to do with that metaphor? Treat toxic masculinity like an illness? How? It's not helpful, it's just tone policing.

[@juvedoo99]

Some have floated the idea of reducing testosterone in men to decrease “volatility”.

[@jensboettiger5286]

This kind of worldview seems to hold as an axiom that women do not have influence of social values, even though the disproportional burdening on women in childrearing has made them proportionately dominant transmitters and shapers of social values. Women have a great deal of social power. I think most straight men base their priorities/plan in life on what they think women want from them. Gender roles were like a fixed script to manufacture two compatible parts through whatever means necessary (as toxic or oppressive as needed). The loss of a fixed female gender role has made men incompatible because men mostly still stick to the old script, and those who don't are still now random parts that are very unlikely to be compatible with anything. That's just the tradeoff for freedom.

[@bromo8874]

Underrated comment

[@txikitofandango]

This debater: Men's feelings don't matter. Also this debater: You should address people in a way that doesn't offend me They are confusing the validation of feelings with validation of opinions If they wanted to make a good argument, they could've said that men could do more to support each other. They started out going in that direction, about not expecting women to solve their problems (although Vaush is correct in saying it's all our collective problem). Men routinely try to scam each other out of their money and into toxic lifestyles, and we need to help each other find alternatives to this. But that would entail this debater actually caring about someone

[@jazzpear8877]

We won't ever be able to reach people if we can't use their language and meet them where they are without getting dogpiled by our own team.

[@mr.irrelevent8956]

I think one thing this guest didn’t seem to understand is that uncles are a product of society and right wing media. If the left wing took men issues more seriously there would be a lot less incels. Also like there are men who struggle to get laid that aren’t incels.

[@isaac_marcus]

"uncles are a product of society and right wing media" had me floored for a good few seconds

[@jandnorton]

I think your framing on this issue upsets people because it challenges their preconceived notions that since men, particularly white men, do have tons of privileges in this society any problem they might have must be trivial and not worth addressing compared to women's/minority issues. It's the false dilemma fallacy (either/or). The fact that for centuries the only problems that mattered were men's problems has tricked some people into thinking addressing any men's issues inherently means restricting or stopping discussions on other issues.

[@jandnorton]

Also at the beginning of the video the caller says, "we dont expect black people to deal with racism by themselves." and then like 30 seconds later he says we should expect men to deal with the societal issue of men's loneliness by themselves. I dont think he even registered the hypocrisy in that statement.

[@durakku]

As a man who's dealt with a lot of these issues, Vaush is 100% correct in this. This other guy is just trying to pussyfoot around the issue

[@IfOUGHTpIRANHAz]

I had an online convo about this a while back and I really had to keep in mind that the person I was talking to (a cis woman) wasn’t just coming at ME. I was also an instrument for her to work out her baggage with cis men. I don’t know what someone did to her and I wouldn’t assume, but I didn’t take her anger personally. I acknowledged that yes, men are, on average more dangerous, but that doesn’t mean men being lonely isn’t still an issue.

[@IfOUGHTpIRANHAz]

The clincher was when I pointed out that when I said “man/men”, she was answering as if the word was automatically synonymous with “alt right man/men” or “man/men who ra**s women.”

[@davo312]

and frankly if she decides to view men as only one or the other, she’s doing herself a disservice. of course it also leads to more alienated men, but she’s also losing.

[@d3l3tes00n]

It makes sense why women react this way considering history/culture & how cis men still treat us. I'm not saying it's right, but it's not difficult to understand why women wouldn't take issues like loneliness seriously. There's soooo much going on underneath all of this that needs to be unpacked if we want to move forward without feeling resentment anymore. Women are still fighting for our rights.

[@bulletsandbracelets4140]

@@d3l3tes00n I know you admit that it isn't right, but we need to be better. women, as a whole. We can fight for our rights and still give men the space to have these kinds of conversations. Even if individually we don't all have the space to take them seriously, we don't need to shit on men who are at least trying to bring up conversations about it. That's where the problems starts. We need to be less understanding of that behavior in particular - it's only doing damage at this point.

[@d3l3tes00n]

@@bulletsandbracelets4140 Oh I agree. I can just see how hearing men complain about not having sex or being lonely isn't going to be taken very seriously by women who are literally fighting to have control over their own bodies in 2022. Being called murders & whores by men certainly doesn't help folks.

[@INTERNETDWARF]

I just wanted to comment to say this video earned my sub and my respect. I'm far left myself but have always taken this same position as you with respect to mens rights. The fact that this caller is so uncomfortable or even unwilling to consider that male-specific issues might exist, in any realm, is a serious problem. Frankly, people like this drive young men to the alt right in droves because it's the only place they can hear people speak to issues that they KNOW are real.

[@INTERNETDWARF]

@@pullasorsa-m6o why would you assume that?

[@iamdino0]

@@pullasorsa-m6o No. There are normal people out there who do not hate women nor men.

[@Olyvia..]

The background Subnautica gameplay makes this a lot more sufferable

[@mossex420]

Intersectionality is dead. Everyone, even non-binary people think the world can be defined in binary. The world's powers want things this way, and small minded people unfortunately all end up falling prey to such modes of thought. We're in this together, people. Direct your ire toward those who stand to gain from our being divided - NOT those who address the hard-to-talk-about subjects and happen to hurt your feewings a little bit. Expand your worldview and be better.

[@hieroglyphics1758]

I just hate the caller. Too focused on being politically correct.

[@Gundamman]

Man horseshoe theory sounds real when talking to people like this

[@zikakuto]

In 2019, Liz Plank published a book called, "For the Love of Men From Toxic to a More Mindful Masculinity," which literally said the same things Vaush is saying right now. Here's a blurb: "In For the Love of Men, Liz offers a smart, insightful, and deeply-researched guide for what we're all going to do about toxic masculinity. For both women looking to guide the men in their lives and men who want to do better and just don’t know how, For the Love of Men will lead the conversation on men's issues in a society where so much is changing, but gender roles have remained strangely stagnant." The book was widely hailed as a new way forward. Look at the contrast between then and now, both in terms of reception and practice.

[@Xanthelei]

One of my first questions when I hear a woman say she hates men is just how fucking terfy is she. Which is something I legit NEED to know, as a trans man with multiple trans women friends. And that feeling is no different from how I felt wondering how misogynistic a guy who says he hates women was back before I transitioned. There is NO. DIFFERENCE.

[@yvancluet8146]

omg we're reaching levels of tiptoeing that shouldn't be possible

[@sycoraxrock]

“Soooo… I think the *problem* with your *framing* is that, ummm, you - like - okay. It’s um… even though you *didn’t* say that thing, imagine if you *did* say that. I’m just trying to understand… you know that thing you’re clearly not saying? What did you mean by that?”

[@Yutani_Crayven]

This guy is the epitome of terminally online. He's steeped in hyper-tribalism worse than Maga Q is. Everything is a team thing for him, everything must fall into label. At the end (50 minutes) I thought, damn, he finally understands. And then he went back on it.

[@CrimsonOptics]

When I was much younger, I started to fall into the anti feminist KZbin rabbit hole. I never became alt right, just more of a dissociated liberal who thought mainstream feminism felt apathetic towards men's issues, and most of the feminists I talked to at the time belittled me for trying to get them to see that perspective. I've since moved past that perspective because I've met new people who convinced me that despite these critiques against feminism, it's still necessary in society, now more than ever I feel. However, a lot of guys don't get that luxury. A lot of them just get depressed, isolated, even violent. I'm not saying that's women's fault, but communally, both men and women need to address this because until we do it will continue to be an issue. When I was my most depressed, it was during this transitionary period where I became lonelier and more isolated. I dropped out of a college I never wanted to go to, I was working at a dead end job that I hated and treated me like garbage, I lived by myself, and whatever social group I had was non-existent minus a small toxic friend group online who all but enabled my suicidal ideation. I had nothing, and a lot of men feel this way. I didn't know who I could turn to because I felt like nobody cared, and the one person I did try to open up to, who was a woman by the way, told me that I shouldn't have anything to be upset about because I'm a dude. Instead of empathy, I was shown disdain from someone I trusted during a time where I wasn't opening up to anyone about how I felt. You can see how this can make other men feel, yeah? I never really got out of my intense depression pit until I was able to drastically change my environment. I moved back to an area where I had people who cared about me, as well as my current partner who somehow asked me out at my old job when I was at my lowest. Again, many men don't get this opportunity and just stay in that depression pit forever, blaming it on people who don't deserve it, and feeding their bitterness with toxic reddit forums and 4chan threads. I'm not really saying this as a boohoo feel bad for me kind of thing, cause I'm fine now I got out of it. Still get depression in waves, but I'm not suicidal like I was during that time. But this happened to me pretty easily, and it happens to men all the time. When women get in these kinds of situations, they have someone to talk to. Most men don't, and many men go through these sorts of things without telling anyone. TL;DR Instead of telling men to just be better we need to provide them solutions to their emotional problems. We need to show them that even though sex is cool and great to have, I think the root of this problem is that men aren't having any sort of closeness with people, emotional or physical.

[@chriskilhoffer4992]

I give you huge props for debating someone and making every effort to listen to their stance and attempting to educate them without belittling. We are ultimately in this together and we need to communicate our issues and misconceptions in order to move us forward. Ever forward brother!

[@bobybot9320]

and this guy is infuriating to listen to, he just won't listen and connect his braincells

[@Greasyspleen]

Basically "the cool kids will call me a reactionary if I talk about that issue, so lets just leave it for actual reactionary lunatics to address."

[@sernoddicusthegallant6986]

A perfect encapsulation of twitter: more concerned with how right wing or woke an opinion may look on the surface level than they are with how much or a relevant or serious issue it is.

[@xiahouduin]

This guy is toxic as hell. He went against everything Vaush said about how men have more problems here or there, like with heights. This really pissed me off. EDIT: Oh, now he really sounds like a tankie.

[@andrewphilos]

"Women are given shorter sentencing because of patriarchal beliefs." -> Feminism, based take "Men are given longer sentencing because of patriarchal beliefs." -> MRA, how dare you

[@notiddypunkgf2246]

This kinda feels like the final boss of opticsfrogging, where one will even acknowledge that the arguments and statements being made are correct, but will say that the arguments and statements shouldn't be made because there's a chance they could be misconstrued or be adjacent to right wing arguments.

[@Shrekster5E]

"Well I think it is very difficult to firmly control these studies." "Ah, which study you saw made you think that?" "Oh, no, I never saw any studies, I just feel it."

[@ronwisegamgee]

The vast emphasis on tone-policing tells me that this person is not an ally for men's issues. Saying that men's issues are addressed when the left speak about the prison-industrial complex, capitalism, etc. goes beyond being indirect; it's so tangential, this may as well be a dishonest claim. Last but not least, this person has not exhibited one ounce of genuine empathy regarding men's issues.

[@LaSerpentDEden]

"As a layperson I think there's a reason I gravitate towards opinions like [Noam] Chomsky's" EXCUSE ME? That is NOT the laypersons perspective. That's the liberal/Far-right "we should let aggressors steal land and oppress people because it causes less deaths in the short term" perspective.

[@gezi0752]

This guy literally just is “I agree with your point but it doesn’t *sound* leftist enough”

[@a1axel738]

Gatekeeping in the left has been the worst problem

[@dblock20]

It really is, and the people doing it truly think they have the number to do anything other than circle jerk on twitter

[@TheArbiter10]

I think you really have to be there to fully understand the seriousness of the issue. I came dangerously close to swallowing the redpill dogma hook line and sinker in my late teens - early 20s, and it was people like Vaush who pulled me back to reality, lefties who can speak the academic language, but also understand how to relate it to an audience that spends 90% of their lives on the internet.. The hand-wringing and reticence of liberals when talking about men’s issues does all forms of progressivism a _massive_ disservice.

[@TheArbiter10]

@@ianwazowski5607 Yyyyyup! It's replies exactly like yours that made me believe (with the assistance of far-right dogma) the _whole_ left had become a bunch of crybabies whining about nothing. Thank you for confirming that it was not _all_ courtesy of their brainwashing, and that a lot of you liberals are still as annoying as I thought you were. I guess I've got to give you kudos for tracking down my comment on Vaush's Noncompete video? Not at all weirdly obsessive of you, since that's kinda hard to do on KZbin... but I still appreciate the dedication. P.S: the only people who would get mad at my using the term _simp_ are simps. Is this EJ's alt account, by chance?

[@Tormenator1]

@@ianwazowski5607 if you think simp is problematic language I am begging you to grow thicker skin

[@Tormenator1]

@@ianwazowski5607 One of those words has history behind it,the other does not.

[@fez-._.-zik]

​@@ianwazowski5607 Ironic that you think "simp" is problematic and then you gleefully spout off a bunch of slurs. You notice a difference between those words? The ones you spelt out directly vs changing a letter vs calling it the x-word? It's almost like you KNOW which words are actually hurtful and just want an excuse to spout out all the slurs you love using so much...

[@farter-hall9681]

This convo was so aggravating to me. It's clear the other person was just going in circles and refusing to see what Vaush's point actually was because in their mind Vaush "was doing leftism wrong."

[@mistake1197]

This person has alot of toxic masculinity they haven't unpacked yet, with a tad bit of misandry.

[@FatalAlcatraz]

Feminism should be about true equality between genders, not opressing men.

[@loftydog1120]

This guy has no understanding of why Tucker Carlson is such a world class propagandist. You can get a long way toward gaining peoples trust by speaking to their problems. The problem with Tucker is he gives all the wrong solutions and scapegoats. Getting people in the same way but offering them better solutions is the only way to broaden their perspective.

[@stevenguitink5947]

Just as a piece of anecdotal evidence on my part about the height thing, I'm a 6'5" bloke. I'm socially awkward, stumble over my words and due to prior trauma am incredibly adverse to violence. And yet, I've had coworkers bully me and then turn around and use my height as a way to accuse me of being intimidating. I've had to learn to sit or lean down when I speak so I don't scare people shorter than me. By my own accounts, I have only ever heard other men talk about this issue. No woman - again in my experience - has ever spoken of anything like this.

[@cameronhajjafar2585]

Vaush: “Republicans are ONTOLOGICALLY EVIL.” Random viewer: “omg this guy is such a right winger 🙄😒”

[@grout6924]

53:13 this is literally the most based thing and all this other guy can do is say "meh i guess you're right it just seems wrong to me" i lost a little piece of my soul right there

[@duckphone07]

Vaush did a really good job here of encapsulating a massive problem of the left. We can’t be afraid of engaging narratives with a right wing aesthetic. Just because men’s problems are almost exclusively talked about by right wing reactionaries doesn’t mean there aren’t true issues in there that we should at the very least acknowledge. Vaush brought up height and the criminal justice system as examples of things biased against men. Other examples are homelessness, mental health, and overweight body images. Think about how we as a society have pushed embracing overweight women as beautiful (which is a good thing), but we haven’t done the same for overweight men. Another one is penis size. Society is still really comfortable making jokes and generally equating men’s value to dick size. Even think about some language we use, like “big dick energy.” Unfortunately this conversation was stifled by the guest. His mind is a fascinating example of the left’s obsession with aesthetic and appearance. He admitted that he thought it was only appropriate to talk about issues that had a left framing, like his brain saw social issues in some extremely black and white hyper partisan way. This presents a problem however. If this guest were to remain consistent, anytime the right co-opted some issue from the left, would he then be inclined to abandon that position, or at least refuse to talk about it further? And that brings up the issue of the temporal nature of his position. What left aesthetics are now could be different later, and they are definitely different from what the left aesthetics were a decade or two ago. Same thing with right wing aesthetics. So his obsession with focusing on framing over substance leads to the unavoidable conclusion that his positions and ideals are malleable and temporal without any substantial epistemological foundation.

[@digaddog6099]

To be honest even focusing just on "overweight men" is an outgrowth of the same original problem. We should help overweight men with body issues, but a substantial amount of body dysphoria in men is from not being buff enough. The reason people like us tend to say "we need to help men who feel overweight" but not do the same for men who feel weak is because advocacy for women's issues has made us aware of one but not the other.

[@duckphone07]

@@digaddog6099 Great insight. I agree.

[@duckphone07]

@@ianwazowski5607 I’m going to respond on the assumption you aren’t being sarcastic. I am a feminist. I don’t oppose it. I never claimed men were oppressed. I’m just acknowledging issues men have. White people have issues specifically to them. Straight people have issues specific to them as well. As for cis people, they might have issues specific to them but if can’t think of one off the top of my head. Acknowledging that privileged groups of people have issues doesn’t take away from talking about or focusing on minority issues. This isn’t a zero sum game.

[@bunklypeppz]

This guy's argument that Vaush isn't being clear that his argument is coming from a "leftist perspective" is grounded in cirular reasoning. He's basically saying that you can only talk about men's issues by referring to arguments that are already established in contemporary leftist ideology, but Vaush's whole point is that contemporary leftist ideology tends to have a blind spot for those issues as anything other than a corollary to the other issues that lie adjacent to them. This guy seems to be ultimately saying that you can't directly address men's issues from a leftist perspective because doing so would associate you with those who are opposed to leftist ideas, because those who are opposed to leftist ideas are the ones who make arguments in favor of addressing these types of men's issues.

[@Xaphnir]

This guy is the stereotype Ben Shapiro created in his mind with his "facts don't care about your feelings" line.

[@bulletsandbracelets4140]

The instant they said men aren't more provably lonely, I'm yelling LOL. I know it's anecdotal, but seriously - there are SO MANY accounts from people who have transitioned FtM and been hit with this overwhelming wall of isolation. No one ever says it isn't justified by society, no one ever says (in Vaush's conversations) that women are evil for keeping this emotional distance. But men PROVABLY do not have the emotional support systems that women do. It's a part of the root of the entire issue. If that wasn't the case, men wouldn't rely on their girlfriends/wives etc for so much of it and that problem wouldn't exist. They literally acknowledged the problem that comes about because of this fact. Edit: they almost said it outright towards the end. Essentially - men who talk about men's issues are a lost cause because they must care more about men than they do about women. And if we don't bring them over that means we won't have to talk to or deal with them. This was a great convo but ooh wow do I not like this mindset.

[@ericosagie3046]

I think the internet has skewed our sense of reality. In what world is 5’8 considered short when 5’9 is literally average height for men in the united states

[@crypticcorgi8280]

This person is more concerned with the optics of stances people take and how that works with "his side." Rather than having an honest conversation about real issues. He treats gender politics with partisanship. Also his problem with "framing" of the valid points. Is just the fact that the points end up sympathetic to men at all. So he came to tone police you. He would keep objecting to these points until you agree that men are solely the problem for a social issues both men and women participate in. 100% you have him pinned that he is just resistant to the idea that men have social and institutionalized problems. He definitely treats issues like "Men spreading" more seriously than men's suicide rate. The whole ' "Men are lonely because of toxic masculinity" is the same energy as "Men are lonely because most women superficially only want tall men, with exceptionally big dicks, and cash." Neither is founded empirically. It's just there to shift the blame on solely just men or women. Last thing, it's ironic for him to say you are working off of gender essentialisms. While his whole argument rests on treating men as a monolith. But at this point, who is surprised. He has been like "No only I can make that argument," the whole time.

[@jaredblatterman6877]

"Dear incels, I hear you're lonely, let me tell you about the prison system" -A Bottom

[@thenewmase]

notice how he didn't share how we should talk about these issues, he wants to avoid talking about them altogether and ignore them as if that would help solve them