This Debate Had Chat Begging For Death

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[@Prometheus1464]

I hate the blame game too my guy. Like I'm in jail for life for "killing my wife" and "first-degree murder." The judge just blamed me even though I told him " your honor she had it coming." He didn't understand what lead to her deserving it.

[@uninstaller2860]

Have you tried diplomacy. Also what about Yemen?

[@pako5586]

@@uninstaller2860 yea also what about the that other guy who killed his wife but denounced me for doing it too

[@kasane1337]

Maybe your wife actually wanted that to happen? Otherwise she would have prevented it, no?

[@flubble2473]

@@foxjade8924Have you tried turning it off and on again ?

[@Savannah-]

I assaulted and tried to steal from someone and they fought back! I even gave them a deal where I just take a little and then I'll stop. Can you believe they didn't take the deal? Now it's all "you started it!" 🙄 blame game.

[@cogsworther1639]

Person 1: "This man broke into my house and tried to kill me!" Person 2: "Come on, we're all adults here. Let's not play the *blame game.* "

[@awesomepossum336]

''Let's discuss this, both sides can sit down and talk about what led to this and figure out a solution!''

[@corranhorn85]

Did you sign a contract saying they couldn't come into your house and kill you?

[@cogsworther1639]

@@corranhorn85 Yeah, but maybe if I establish more frameworks, it'll work this time. Surely my violent attacker wouldn't dare sully his reputation in the eyes of the general public.

[@Daddybuttman]

Did you ever stop to ask yourself “What if other people want all my dope ass shit?” Check mate liberal.

[@corranhorn85]

@@Daddybuttman can I interest you in a framework?

[@ladyofrillwater]

For a libertarian, this guy really likes bureaucracy.

[@mazking1366]

We need paper work to prove this happened so in 50 years after the apocalypse they can find those papers in the destroyed UN building and understand why the world ended.

[@ironicmysoginist2035]

mf literally loved "STABILITY", whatever that means to him lmao

[@Ynwell_theslaaneshi]

“I’m a libertarian” “So you see, in a democratic government you gently wait for when elections are about to come, you shouldn’t be able to protest” So not only that, but in the end it’s “well you’re not a libertarian because you think voting someone means the majority is for that!”

[@cropcircle5693]

Somehow they all do. There's so much imaginary "voluntary union of like minded people" that one could almost think that they see the world of governance exactly as it has become. In other words; we currently live in the Libertarian utopia they advocate for, and they hate it.

[@YokaiX]

A "LEFT Libertarian" (/"Libertarian Leftist")

[@trustyvault13canteen32]

"I dont blame the jews for being massacred, BUT...." 🚨🚨🚨🚩🚩🚩🚩🚩🚨🚨🚨🚨🚨🚩🚩🚩🚩🚨🚨🚨

[@zacheryeckard3051]

He also openly supports Isreal, so he likes to fly his red flags at the top of flagpoles.

[@thatdarnskag5043]

Also sounds like he's actively avoiding saying "Palestine" or "Palestinians" when he does his really stupid Hamas/Ukraine comparisons.

[@YokaiX]

"like ya know... Zionist Occupation Government and Protocols of the Elders of Zion and stuff" - that guy probably

[@mikek9297]

Also : Russia democratic because it has „elections”, but Ukraine undemocratic because it had a revolution.

[@SleepyMatt-zzz]

Clearly the Jews should of talked it out with the N*zis. It's not like they were idealistically driven or anything.

[@adrians9997]

Vaush(jokingly): "So you think a zoom call between Putin and Zelensky could have prevented the invasion?" This guy(unironically): "YEP!"

[@freedomofmusic2112]

LMAO

[@YokaiX]

Nah he's got it all wrong... Good old OG Skype video chat/call would bring peace.

[@gearhead743]

@@YokaiX now I am imaging a 240p Vladimir Putin yelling into an old Xbox mic flying his arms about

[@willdenham]

A 'televised zoom call'. And he said that with a straight face.

[@richardarriaga6271]

Zelensky lacked the psionic power to force choke, disarm, or charm Putin over Zoom.

[@22Vnnami]

Oh god, I remember this dude. He would attempt to negotiate a treaty with a starving cougar.

[@amellirizarry9503]

“starving cougars” 🥵

[@Soulraven2735]

Sounds like the last time I went to a bar 😉👉Hey-oh!

[@vogelvogeltje]

Hey man, I did that before. I’m totally fine. It’s doable 😎

[@ImaginaryMdA]

Honestly, I hope he does...

[@everforward5561]

@@Soulraven2735 👈👈

[@aaronmarks9366]

"You shouldn't be allowed to topple your government." Literally one of the only statements that both the left and the right would agree is fucking stupid.

[@ManticTRIGGER]

I genuinely believe that's tho only thing, just the reason is completely different.

[@aaronmarks9366]

@@ManticTRIGGER Definitely

[@ProperlyGaming]

@@ManticTRIGGER yeah that is the only difference between them when it comes to being ok with revolting against your government. The left agrees if a government is doing you harm and going against your best interests then its based to revolt against them, but if youre revolting cause you lost a democratic election and are booty hurt that your guy didnt win then thats a pointless revolution.

[@Jaden-Ring]

Left wants to topple for people's rights. Right wants to topple for the right to deny rights.

[@eimazd]

To be fair, you _aren't_ allowed to topple your government. It's just that, if you succeed, the people who would've punished you can no longer do so. Like how cheating in cards is allowed as long as you're never caught.

[@sysop073]

This guy should be a defense attorney. "Objection, your honor, all these witnesses that saw my client do it are just playing the blame game"

[@kneau]

"Your honor, by delivering their verdict, this jury has hopped on a wagon & is now playing the blame game."

[@justalostlocal]

@@kneau "Your honor, it's very immature that jury and witnesses ganged up on my client. We should follow the FrAMewORk of diplomacy and all get along."

[@kneau]

@@justalostlocal *from the judge* "I see, so... you're blaming them?"

[@verager2493]

He would be so good at getting mistrials until he got disbarred for, and I quote, "being fucking retarded"

[@timothykessler5029]

My client pleads "who cares?"

[@hinaruto43ver]

Everyone, show up at this dudes house and demand his wallet. If he calls the cop tell him that he is pro state violence and he should have negotiated peacefully and only handed over a quarter of his credit cards and cash

[@mikek9297]

Remember to call it a „framework” tho. It makes all the difference you see…

[@willdenham]

This is pretty libertarian. I'm surprised Chomsky is on board, but I should at leaat find and listen to his argument despite the cringe. I respect Chomsky but his free speech absolutism is another area I have problems with.

[@pocketabyss3990]

This guy: “Quit with the blame game” Vaush: “Russia invaded Ukraine”

[@aaaaaballs]

true

[@Buliwyf]

OH YEAH WELL WHAT WAS UKRAINE WEARING?🤔

[@pocketabyss3990]

@@Buliwyf aww damn you got me there

[@LaurentIpsum]

@@Buliwyf MAYBE UKRAINE SHOULDN'T HAVE BEEN WEARING THAT USHANKA

[@jizburg]

If Ukraine did not want to be invaded then why did they place their borders next to russia?!

[@laflinfable6445]

The fact Vaush is playing a rougelike, a genre defined by constant restarts and unending adventure in the exact same path continually, well having this debate is more irony then my puny form can handle

[@LegendLeaguer]

ludonarrative harmony

[@manuelmialdea5127]

Cool thing is by repeating you get to master the thing so even on that level it´s accurate

[@bankbill9670]

🤓x10

[@reverseaimbot2509]

Isn’t Noita a rougelike? I love that game

[@laflinfable6445]

@@reverseaimbot2509 It is, and so do I. Even though it's a fucking hate-filled project meant to make me wish for oblivion.

[@fjordojustice]

This guy was super condescending for a person whose only idea was "I think they should try diplomacy"

[@dinosaysrawr]

Classic Dunning-Krugerism. Had that same energy of a 5th grader writing an essay about how they would bring about world peace or a teenager proudly "inventing" Objectivism.

[@addisonvigil163]

Of course he was condescending with no solutions. Kinda part and parcel with people who think being libertarian is a personality.

[@YokaiX]

@@addisonvigil163yeah lol... indicated by the fact that he just had to keep mentioning he's Libertarian when it really wasn't necesarry.

[@YokaiX]

He really did seem to be talking down to Vaush multiple times, while being so obtuse. Either because he's genuinely cognitively or mentally deficient, or a dishonest coward.

[@danielshepard2315]

That idea alone means his solution is better than 95% of US media and Vaush

[@akillianat-1073]

This whole framework sh*t is just this guy saying "my solution to the diplomacy problem is that people should find a solution to the problem" in a pseudo-intelecual way

[@roberteriksen6434]

A framework in programming is a set of rules the computer *has* to abide by. He's a techbro Musk fan, and they have a real lovely habit of thinking every solution to everything lies in programming, or Elon Musk.

[@lillysmith6123]

@@roberteriksen6434 I wonder how well it would have worked if Vaush had offered to let him set up a framework for the debalte, then completely ignored it for the entirety of the conversation.

[@gibdopaminepls]

@@roberteriksen6434 as a software engineer, every time he mentioned the word "framework" he made me die a little inside

[@SuperGorak]

but still, the best Picard speech would be too extreme for him

[@lillysmith6123]

@@gibdopaminepls I'm finding myself wondering how many techbros actually write code...

[@ravenblood1954]

God this guy argues so disingenuously it’s amazing. He honestly compared invading another country to annex its territory to a country protecting its territorial integrity within its own country

[@samiamrg7]

And when Vaush asked him anout existing international laws and UN resolutions, he changed the subject to Ukraine killing someone in an extraordinarily obvious pivot to avoid the question.

[@AcornFox]

“ukraine should have withdrawn its troops” to where?! belarus? poland? i lost my mind during the minsk discussion.

[@jozefkovac6858]

Bad faith arguments will be the downfall of society.

[@falconeshield]

Wtf is this guy talking about. For a libertarian he sure loves goverments

[@JuanTheBone]

I dont think he is disingenuous, I think he is sits right in the center of a dumb/naivety/dunning kruger venn diagram

[@graytlo]

When he said “It’s not propaganda, it’s what Elon Musk said in a Tweet,” I was thoroughly stunned.

[@Tp_hedgelinghog]

And how often he would bring up that Elon tweet, while Vaush completely ignored it because he knows whatever Elon suggested was bull.

[@janetbg5517]

Hearing this guy acted like he had the solutions to politics, I should have assumed that he would also be into crypto currencies

[@kneau]

Maybe we can reach them through Wiki edits.

[@andreymontag]

He's literally a libertharian. Thank God his solution wasn't "lift all sanctions so that free market stops the war"

[@wile123456]

He is an ancap in denial

[@gabbie07]

Istg he kinda seemed like an RT asset, he went over every single talking point that is shown on Russian TV and state media

[@cogsworther1639]

If only we decentralized peace talks by establishing frameworks on the block chain I don't know what any of that means, but I hope ti makes me sound smart

[@Rotheric]

Admits France and Germany have been trying diplomacy for years. Proceeds to decry that there would be no war, if only people had tried diplomacy. Claims that we need frameworks for peace. Ignores that we already have frameworks: the UN, international law, the Geneva Convention and that Putin doesn't give a shit about them. Maybe he just just wants crypto frameworks that are better because something something blockchain?

[@jewelplate]

I think you forgot the rug pull after pump.

[@cenauge]

Also insists that the making a deal with Russia that Russia would break would turn Russian citizens against the government, asking why the government is being such assholes. The whole thing is a barely-examined thought experiment with demonstrably false underlying premises.

[@pi172]

I didnt have a clue how to summarize the brainrot of the "debater", but i feel like you did an excellent job here. so on point.

[@Noschool100]

I also just didn't get this idea of like If the Russian government breaks it International contract the people will turn against them. we literally have an example of this happening the German people did not rise up against Hitler after he broke the Munich agreement and invaded Czechoslovakia. The government just lies.

[@DanielRM92]

@@Noschool100 You have failed to consider that Hitler would have been obligated to justify his actions if only the Munich agreements had been broadcasted on TV.

[@trashrabbit69]

This dude literally thinks diplomacy is just having the max Speech stat and being able to negotiate Legate Lanius from invading New Vegas because "hey that's stupid tho" but then immediately fails and gets crucified when Debate Lord Lanius retorts with the "no u" and all of the Mojave becomes Caesar's new empire.

[@samiamrg7]

He also doesn’t seem to realize that most wars actually end in armistices, aka the “plan b” he talked about. Total domination and unconditional surrender are not the norm for war, especially in Europe for the last 1000+ years. Usually, one or both sides decide to cut their losses and settle for less than ideal terms (like money or a small amount of land) or the sides come to a stalemate and they go to a white peace or take home whatever they have at the moment.

[@MechanizedWerewolf]

Haha, perfect analogy

[@Daddybuttman]

Zelensky just needed to select “confirmed bachelor” to seduce Putin on live tv. World peace achieved.

[@luxborealis]

It’s actually funny, that’s the only way I have ever beaten New Vegas because I’ve always maxxed out speech by the time I get to him.

[@zcritten]

@@samiamrg7 He's like the opposite of a paradox Gambro's view of politics weirdly

[@verager2493]

"a proxy war is when people have multiple viewpoints" I am now pro r-slur

[@angrybeluga1697]

I heard that too. Someone get this man a dictionary, stat! Lol

[@falconeshield]

The Vaush word

[@NickTheGreatAndPowerful]

This dude is all four points of the political compass at the same time and it's both completely incomprehensible and exhausting to listen to while also making me wish I could strangle someone through the internet. In Roblox.

[@xoxothx]

😭😭

[@showtheshow3397]

RADICAL centrism

[@h4724-q6j]

It's confusing because the political compass sucks.

[@YokaiX]

Or Minecraft

[@NickTheGreatAndPowerful]

@@YokaiX Can't say "in Minecraft" any more, the feds caught on.

[@SuperAsefasef]

True peace is not merely the absence of tension: it is the presence of justice. So in my mind there can only be peace for Ukraine when there is first justice for Ukraine.

[@jackoski__19]

Plus, anyone truly seeking peace would not want to award the russian state for invading a sovereign country

[@aaronmarks9366]

Fuck yes

[@ashfox7498]

What video game is this quote from?

[@aaronmarks9366]

@@ashfox7498 As far as I know it's actually an MLK quote

[@kasane1337]

@@aaronmarks9366 So it's from Fortnite, basically.

[@IMelkor42]

TFG: I want the world to sign a 'We've banned death treaty' V: I don't think that'll work... TFG: Well, I guess you just want everyone to die then.

[@mikek9297]

Vaush should have asked this dude what „systems” he worked on, because I don’t trust a single bit in any of them. One shouldn’t be allowed to call yourself the „idea guy” if all their ideas are garbage.

[@Bertinator-nm9ld]

​@@mikek9297TBF, I automatically assume all of their ideas are garbage, if someone ever describes themselves as the "idea guy".

[@MaxHimbigger]

Imagine this guy watching someone get mugged. The victim is beat on and has their wallet stolen, and the mugger is demanding their phone with a knife, but when the victim pulls a gun and demands his wallet back, this guy jumps in like “WOAH WOAH, hasn’t enough damage been done? We can figure out a way to peace without stealing your wallet back.”

[@erickschusterdeoliveira2662]

this should be pinned tbh

[@RancorousSea]

"give the mugger 5 minutes to stretch, rehydrate and call for backup before you fight back. Or else you're as bad as he is"

[@xerxies8947]

Every single person who debates about this saying "well, maybe we should just let Russia have any territory they decide is theirs, war is bad and maybe if we just surrender land it will be over" would have handed over the Sudetenland to Hitler and as a 3rd generation american of polish origins I have a pretty big problem with that argument.

[@draexian530]

Same. If'n a few years America finds itself in that same grip, then I hope the rest of the world doesn't just let us annex Quebec, or whatever stupid shit we try.

[@Nubifier]

@@draexian530 As a Canadian, you can have Quebec, no take-backs.

[@henriquepacheco7473]

Isn't handing over the Sudetenland with no real action basically what the western powers did? Munich Agreement and all. Munich Betrayal, if you're czech.

[@TheSpeep]

As a Belgian, I agree. I am not a big fan of war by any means, but I do prefer the (neoliberal helscape of a) world we have today over whatever nazi Germany mightve planned to do to our little mess of a country.

[@Xenomnipotent]

@@Nubifier also take Alberta. We don’t want them.

[@DeanCalhoun]

two hours of this? i’m 8 minutes in and exhausted by this dude

[@Industrialitis]

Yeah i'm not watching this one.

[@Bedevere]

I think I know where you lost interest: right around "when you say Ukraine wants to defend itself" then tried to say the nation of Ukraine wasn't really interested in remaining a sovereign nation because no one likes to be conscripted. I guess people love being invaded?

[@MMAGamblingTips]

Unbearable

[@thelonelyphish]

Just wrapped up the debate, you got everything in the first 8 minutes, I want to die

[@doomdesire2809]

No reason to, it's a looping dialogue tree, they couldn't even really get passed the initial discussion.

[@pancakehiatt]

this man would never survive an abusive relationship

[@ashfox7498]

"She didn't hit me, we got into an confrontation after she had a bad day at work and 3 bottles of vodka, dinner wasn't ready when it was originally promised to be, I didn't have the money for her dealer, and we we're still working through the conflict in a way that works for us."

[@666kittycat666]

This man is the abusive relationship

[@scifisyko]

@@666kittycat666 Yeah this is just gaslighting and DARVO cranked up to 11.

[@Chatrbuug]

Its okay; they can fix each other!

[@bluephoenix2783]

if he just had a new framework he could probably fix the abusive relationship tho

[@0d614]

"'If only they'd had a Zoom discussion, Putin would've not invaded' 😐" "Well, actually, yes ..." I f'n lost it

[@XBotimusPrimeX]

This "framework" argument is literally just hope. Hope that countries will decide to change their interests for some random dude on the internet.

[@samiamrg7]

He doesn’t even seem to care about that argument is the weird part, because he refuses to engage with questions about existing frameworks which Russia (and America) regularly ignore. He is either lying about believing in “frameworks,” or he knows he can’t defend his idea.

[@Riskofdisconnect]

It's exactly the same way so many people think about climate change, "somebody'll figure it out before we all die so I don't need to worry about it"

[@Noschool100]

it was funny how even acknowledged international law doesnt work when he brought up the us pulling out of the paris accords and basically faced no consequences. international relations, specifically between nuclear powers, are anarchic, this is no governing body above nation states that could enter Russia and force them to follow international law.

[@XBotimusPrimeX]

@@Noschool100 It's also this assumption that autocratic leaders can be seen as a rational actor in the world. When a leader is only accountable to their own whims, these frameworks mean very little

[@samiamrg7]

@@XBotimusPrimeX He doesn't think Putin is an autocrat, it seems. He thinks Putin is as accountable to the people as someone who was legitimately elected. In fact, he seems to think Zelensky is more of an autocrat than Putin is.

[@SuperGorak]

He argues like your average bad therapist who is like "you need to learn to forgive your abusive dad", while you still have to live with your dad

[@Juel92]

This guy is living literal proof on how just having a dialougue and lines of communication does not lead to understandings and deals lol.

[@samiamrg7]

Making an appeal to the people of another country via a speech from a politician is not “meddling,” that is diplomacy 101.

[@l4dym3r3k]

Why is he giving “Putin...I wish I was your mother...I would have loved you so much...”

[@666kittycat666]

Dear president Putin, if I was your framework…

[@samiamrg7]

Sitting at a table and talking it out means nothing if one side is not operating in good faith. Japan did this in WW2. They were in the middle of diplomatic talks with the US as a delaying tactic while they moved their fleet against Hawaii. Then they abruptly ended those diplomatic talks and launched a surprise attack on the US Pacific fleet. No amount of meetings or zoom calls would have stopped Russia from invading Ukraine unless the result of those talks was giving Russia everything they wanted.

[@mckenzie.latham91]

Well said

[@BatDad-qu4fo]

Yeah it was by far the most naive viewpoint I've ever heard. The idea that if we just tried diplomacy a little bit more (as if they didn't try) then everything could have been avoided and could solve all problems across the world, is mind numbingly juvenile. Saying if Putin didn't pull out of Ukraine after claiming he would, would then have to explain that to his people (like he gives a shit) means absolutely nothing to a dictator. He almost literally made it sound like Putin would get "cancelled" by his people or something. The reality is people would be pissed (as many are now) and nothing at all would change. I couldn't believe he kept unironically making this argument and could never answer what he would actually due in Putin just ignored everyone, like he's doing now.

[@supershinyjune]

"When treaties are multilaterally agreed upon, countries will abide by them" is the most insane foreign policy take ever. Countries won't even abide by bilateral treaties most of the time - where breaches have even more far-reaching consequences. Additionally, UN members are not obligated to sign treaties, even if they are agreed on in the UNGA. The U.S. hasn't even signed most of the Human Rights treaties. Read up on how international institutions work before coming up with 'solutions' like this, jeez.

[@SleepyMatt-zzz]

Ikr? Has the dude never heard of the treaty of versailles? Trusting most countries to respect ANY treaty is a huge bet.

[@SumNutOnU2b]

If I remember correctly, this was the guy who, right after the discussion ended, someone from chat asked what the guy's name was and Vaush either couldn't remember or refused to answer. So I listened at the beginning (before I didn't have the spoons to bother going back to relisten to the beginning) and realized that he actually never gave his name or any personal info at all.

[@ManticTRIGGER]

I want to check but I realized suddenly I don't even want to know if you are wrong. Because I want to know as little about this dumb person as possible.

[@LaSerpentDEden]

He was in an old vaush video where he introduced himself and sometimes you can see the chatters command !guest and pitbot replies with his name and pronouns

[@SumNutOnU2b]

@@ManticTRIGGER yeah, I felt about the same at the time.

[@luxborealis]

Do you really find his viewpoints valuable enough you need to know his name? He’s just just some guy. If you absolutely need to make him unique I guess you could call him Teeth Guy.

[@freedomofmusic2112]

it's better that way

[@Ian-fv6bz]

I appreciate vaush debating a neaderthal from thousands of years ago but I think debating people born in modern day would elicit more productive conversation

[@luxborealis]

Gneursh think Big Water Tribe no need send sharp flints to Forest Floor Tribe for bashing of Fire Tribe. Fire Tribe big boss only need talk with Forest Floor Tribe big boss in front of tribe and explain why feel need to take over hunting ground and take Forest Floor Tribe women captive. Fire Tribe have few women? Need more food? Headbashing no lead to solution, Forest Floor Tribe should lay down bashing rocks to show good example to Fire Tribe. Gneursh know Gneursh big brain, thank all, thank all. Now Gneursh need go, must see if true that Dershkon of Muskrat Tribe release blue tweety bird from cage and no fly away from Dershkon.

[@denidjukic6195]

20 minutes in, this dude who claims to be "left libertarian" who is "critical of governments" is apparently against people toppling their own governments because "toppling governments" is bad but I just wonder if he would have the same energy if it was...let's say people of Taiwan storming their government who is favorable to US hegemony and hostile to populist action

[@afridge8608]

And the thing is the ukrainians didnt even topple their government. Only thing that happened was putins guy fleeing

[@boeufbourgeoisie]

This guy straight up didn't get that the final consequence of broken treaties is just Death. It's an unfortunate reality, but people have to die when they'd rather burn the table and spit the ashes in your face than sit at it

[@samiamrg7]

One reason the US was so set on unconditional surrender of Japan was because the Japanese had already demonstrated a willingness to negotiate in bad faith when they had the US in negotiations right up until just before launching the attack on Pearl Harbor. The US could no longer trust Japan to abide by the terms of any treaty or armistice short of unconditional surrender.

[@lucashernandez9233]

Vaush got frameworked in this debate.

[@aaronmarks9366]

Based and frameworkpilled

[@Jaden-Ring]

@@aaronmarks9366 let's say you and I are on an island and I have gathered all the framework

[@sashalai3987]

Yeah this debate really worked my frame AND framed my work

[@jonash154]

When he said(while discussing an authoritarian superpower invading a sovereign democratic country) "I don't like the blame game" I think I had a mini stroke.

[@JeanAlexander-dg6kh]

I thought it was he who was having a stroke

[@MrBell-iq3sm]

This reminds me of conversations I had with my ex-girlfriend in which she argued that militaries should be dispersed, because there is always a diplomatic solution, often repeating the phrase 'Imagine it's war and no-one shows up', while I argued that all it takes is one actor, who doesn't care about diplomacy to destroy everything.

[@E.Mulchi]

Imagine it's war and only one side shows up

[@MrBell-iq3sm]

@@E.Mulchi That’s what I said as well.

[@henriquepacheco7473]

virgin realistic approach to geopolitics vs chad "just don't war, bro"

[@terrystevens3998]

@Tight n Nerdy her idea would probably work if it wasn’t for men.. so it’s not really an own of a female but a man unable to comprehend men have been a plague on the earth

[@Crawver]

I'm entirely anti war. But I still accept the purpose of having a standing military. Smaller than what we have, but something that can set up and hold a robust and powerful defence. The idea that we shouldn't have something to defend with is just naive.

[@lydiajevera4250]

"sometimes peace is another word for surrender" - babylon 5

[@aaronmarks9366]

I fucking love that someone else remembers and can quote Babylon 5

[@angrybeluga1697]

“No dictator, no invader can hold an imprisoned population by force of arms forever.” -G’Kar

[@just9911]

My fav is when Delenn tells earth force to fuck off in severed dreams Only one human captain has ever survived battle with a Minbari Fleet. He is behind me. You are in front of me. If you value your lives, be somewhere else!

[@Dsworddance22]

It feels like this dude thinks he can Speech 100 his way out of war like its a Fallout game I respect his intentions but there are certain points where diplomacy unfortunately doesn't work and some people just can't be reasoned with. The debater fails to address how we should react in the event Putin doesn't follow a hypothetical peace treaty

[@johnnnyjr8936]

To be fair, his dialogue tree was straight out of an RPG. "Well you see, maybe you should have cast "Diplomatic Resolution" with the Rampaging Troll; who had an INT of 1 CHR or 1 and Speech skill of 1. Ah yes! "Russia, how about instead of war. We tell you the Danbas belongs to us, and you leave us alone?" "Putin - *Loud Orc Noises*" Thanks Libertarian guy you diplomacied world peace! UwU OwO

[@aaronmarks9366]

@@johnnnyjr8936 Lmao

[@BackwardsPancake]

It reminds me of that old 4chan /tg/ greentext where some guy (playing a tabletop campaign based on the real-life crusades) tried to end the holy war by convincing both sides that god wasn't real and that they should stop fighting and embrace rationality.

[@henriquepacheco7473]

@@BackwardsPancake How long did it last before both the Muslims and the Christians temporalily agreed to cease hostilities while ridding the world of the godless scum?

[@angelikaskoroszyn8495]

War is just spicy diplomacy

[@angryretailbanker5103]

"We can create frameworks for what to do in various scenarios. We need to get both sides to the table to talk." Holy shit, this guy just solved global war and achieved world peace! If only the UN had the foresight to invent frameworks and suggest warring parties talk to each other! I want to know what his solution to the homelessness crisis is. Will it be "Just buy a house"?

[@Saurawr]

What if instead of bad we had good? Ah fuck thank god, you're the only one with that idea! A visionary!

[@ImaginaryMdA]

I personally believe in world peace and such as.

[@techpriesttaris1309]

This is the perfect response. Seriously he thinks every world government just hasn’t put in the work to talk to the regime in Russia. That every government doesn’t have “frameworks” for how to try to diplomatically solve issues. Sorry man, but frameworks aren’t like software and are hard coded into the world. Putins regime was willing to pay the small cost they thought it would take to conquer Ukraine in a week. Miscalculated and can’t back down.

[@justalostlocal]

He's such a ultra liberal.

[@LaSerpentDEden]

Guys?? Have we ever just tried telling murderers that it's bad and illegal!? Just set up a framewoooooork

[@recordatron]

Listening to this guy constantly saying "if you'll let me talk, let me finish and I'll tell you etc" and then not saying anything of substance is like the oral equivalent of the "hold me back lads" from someone pretending they're raring for a fight but really ain't got shit.

[@moorejim13]

Its amazing when someone tries to "both sides" an issue but will not acknowledge that one side clearly got up and started the whole issue. ALSO im really sick of libertarians IGNORING the fact that HUMANS ARE GARBAGE! and assume that people will always act reasonably

[@catmeat2059]

I don't think that libertarians assume that, this is opposite of libertarian view of the world.

[@verager2493]

They know about the boot. They just think they'll get to wear it

[@moorejim13]

@@verager2493 which is very sad when people are This willfully ignorant and unwilling to actually listen to others

[@samiamrg7]

+cat meat the libertarian assumption is literally that people always act in their own logical self interest. That is the core of Objectivism, and it is fucking stupid.

[@catmeat2059]

@@samiamrg7 No, it's the dumbed down version of someone who doesn't live in the real world. People don't always act in their logical self interest, people act in subjective self intererest. A base for libertarian worlview is that there is no objective value, all value is subjective to the person and circumstances. You cannot look into a person's mind to determine what they value, but you can infer some of it from their actions. If a person willfully trades a bottle of water for a chocolate bar, for example, then at least at that very moment they demonstrably value a chocolate bar more than a bottle of water. Therefore if your goal is to maximize value in society, letting people act without undue interference is the way to go. The idea that people act in their logical self interest can be proven false by a 2-minute trp to the nearest cassino, but is also opposite to the libertarian view of subjective value, since it requires you to have an objective view of value (usually adopting your own subjective view as objective and apply it to other people). You will then try to determine if person's action have brought them more of that objective value. If so, then it was in their self interest. For example, a person destroying their life with drugs is, according to nearly everyone, not acting in their self interest, but is at all time clearly pursuing their subjective self interest - they go for the thing that they value most at that moment. If there is no interference, people show through their actions what they value. If you bastardize views of the people you disagree with, then of course they will seem stupid. But I can't really blame you as many people who claim to be libertarians don't get it either.

[@gandalfos]

"source?" "we need to start trusting each other again"

[@Ingwaz_Seishu]

Vaush, you have way more patience than I expect most people. I would be bashing my head on my desk begging for unconsciousness

[@samiamrg7]

30 minutes in, and this guy is constantly dancing around the idea that the US and NATO are somehow at just as much at fault for Russia deciding to invade Ukraine, but he has thus far refused to say it. I wonder why. Could it be that he is a coward?

[@tdl1315]

love how his argument is, in the end, "we should have frame works. How do we enforce these frame works? idk, but its better than not having them"

[@rainbowkrampus]

Putin should just move to the US, he'd get a ton of support here.

[@sapiensursus3034]

I wouldn’t be surprised if that was unironically like his Plan B or something

[@trustyvault13canteen32]

He could be Floridas governor after DeSantis runs for president

[@rainbowkrampus]

@@trustyvault13canteen32 This is the Trump/Putin buddy comedy we need.

[@JeepnHeel]

Yeah, but then he'd be an American, and did you know US bad?

[@PancakemonsterFO4]

Who needs Trump vs Desantis if you can have the second coming of Putler, the lifetime president of russia

[@calebharris292]

Bro we didn't need the revolutionary war. We just needed to vote king George out of the colonies. By the way defending yourself is cringe and having a government is dumb anyways, so we should just let the monarchy stay. Why don't we just negotiate? I am very intelligent

[@awesomepossum336]

You forgot ''Having a government is dumb, but don't you dare protest said government''

[@AvatarSnake]

This felt like we were shadowboxing the spirit of Michael Tracey for 2 hours. I'm tired...

[@computerflight2145]

i love how he randomly defending monarchies in the middle

[@KhorneBred]

"Alexa; play jimmy dore but with with extra steps"

[@dorkman112]

It's fucking rich that the guy who bitches about you using the "he started it" argument chooses his main argument line to be "but he did it so why can't I"

[@pedrosaraiva]

Vaush: I fear the right to medical assisted death may lead to a socio-economic crisis where poor people are presented with an alternative to poverty which is to die. Also Vaush: posts this debate.

[@freakishuproar1168]

1:10:55 Says "are there elections?" in the most undeservedly smug way. HE'S THINKS RUSSIA IS A DEMOCRACY I DON'T WANNA BE ON THIS PLANET ANYMORE LET ME OFF

[@moonythegemini4817]

This new Tankie patch update for Whatifalthist is crazy

[@moonythegemini4817]

(I said this in chat during the debate but I’m so proud of it I had to say it again)

[@GageEakins]

You should be it's amazing.

[@moonythegemini4817]

@@GageEakins thank you!! I swore I wouldn’t let internet validation from strangers go to my head and I lied 🥹

[@Chatrbuug]

This is "WhatIfAltHist" then?

[@moonythegemini4817]

@@Chatrbuug not that I’m aware but if you look at the two of them and also listen to the way that they argue though they are VASTY different in ideas they both look alike and fall into the same pits

[@liz1646]

Well, I didn't expect him to justify the Holocaust but I shouldn't have expected more from a libertarian.

[@patrickmitchell3497]

How vaush let this guy go for over an hour without screaming slurs at him is incredible

[@MiguelGonzalez-sl5hw]

No joke this guy low key sounds like Joe Rogan

[@MadameCirce]

He looks like a secret Affleck brother.

[@calebharris292]

Somehow less coherent

[@LocoGeorge123]

“I know Russia is punching Ukraine to death in the face, but there is equal blame with Ukraine for their face being in front of Russia’s fist.”

[@E.Mulchi]

There is no equal blame there is non. It is like a natural phenomenon

[@LocoGeorge123]

@@E.Mulchi Day becomes Night, the Tides come in and go out, Ukraine’s support for defense and Russia’s support of invasion are equal

[@jacksonashworth150]

The moment he said he was a libertarian leftist I knew he was either going to be a tanky or someone that's either sympathetic to or just a straight fascist apologist.

[@manjackson2772]

Well not too long after he said he supports Israel lmao

[@jackoski__19]

@UCUTL-k98zUfyt_O8FS6Jiyw This dude sounded full on authoritarian, but he has crypto brain and calls himself a libertarian

[@nightlydrugs6927]

@@manjackson2772 big oof

[@lx4079]

But vaush calls himself a libertarian leftist

[@IndellableHatesHandles]

@@lx4079 Libertarian socialist, which encompasses leftism.

[@gerardoparker8696]

I think this guy just learned the word framework right before this debate

[@ashfox7498]

"Vaush I think your understanding of the situation in Ukraine here is shallow and pedantic"

[@tomtom0157]

@@ashfox7498 LMFAOOOO THE FAMILY GUY REFERENCE HAS ME ON THE FLOOR 😭😭😭😭

[@ivystuart1736]

Omg when he mentioned an Elon Musk tweet I was dead

[@onecoding]

When he said he is working on decentralized things I knew Elon would be mentioned. I'm a programmer and blockchains are interesting as an algorithm and all that, but crypto bros are literally retarded.

[@benledet-reeves454]

especially when the tweet was that russia should get everything they want and ukrain should give up

[@falconeshield]

@@benledet-reeves454 Tankieee

[@benledet-reeves454]

@@falconeshield of course he is hes also one of those people who claim a lable for the aesthetics ( a common thing for self proclaimed “libertarians”)

[@The8BitPianist]

I love that Vaush pushed him to exactly define how he would want the war to be solved with diplomacy, incredible stuff

[@absenteechild8542]

I’m going to start calling myself a tankie exclusively to distance myself from this guy holy shit. “Uhm yeah so we need a plan and a framework but if you think of contingency plans you’re an anti-intellectual” Jesus Christ I’m going to video game myself

[@idesia6380]

This guy might have just swayed me in favor on the "bash your opponent with a large rock" argument

[@glowbies9416]

Imagine calling someone childish for blaming Russia for the war but then going to a “can’t we all just be fwends” argument

[@The8BitPianist]

It's terrible that there are so few libertarian socialists. But what's far worse is that a lot of people who call themselves "libertarian socialists" are like this dude

[@digaddog6099]

He called himself a "libertarian leftist" which means hes a polcomp fan, not an actual socialist

[@Burbs256]

This is my third attempt at watching this, emperor give me strength.

[@fjnordthedwarf4004]

Same. Praise the Omnissiah. May he lift the rust of this debate from my mechadendrites, that I may feel anything again but unending despair.

[@sapiensursus3034]

I’ll summon a Confessor.

[@TheExterminatorGuy]

@@fjnordthedwarf4004 even the gifts of nurgle do not save me from the excruciating pain of this debate. Even the immaterium cannot protect us from such potent liberalism!

[@ashfox7498]

"You are my strongest soldier"

[@chillpillsfornil]

after the first 40 min I had to take breaks. Listen to some calming, scary reddit stories, then came back.

[@Flac_the_Wave]

I hope that attempting diplomacy with Vaush taught him how difficult diplomacy can be.

[@ozzell]

This man has such a hard time understanding that people might want to defend their homes and loved ones from an invading force.

[@computerhardware2063]

Dude wants to go from national democracy back to feudalism

[@turbocat8329]

His idea that "The United States should try diplomacy with Russia" is like confidently walking into NASA headquarters, and announcing that you've solved the problem, and that NASA should try using rockets to put things into space.

[@TheSpartanFactor]

Where did Vaush find an irl claymation character from Fallout 2 to debate?

[@lemon93]

His hand movements are the same even

[@janbittner1465]

"Maybe if we taught Enclave the correct framework they wouldn't want to genocide all of the wasteland.🤔" "Perhaps the villagers should open a dialogue with the raider bands, checkmate, wanderer.🙃"

[@elkosins1686]

What does he mean plan B? As if this was a planned invasion on either side lol this is the plan B…. He talks about how we should try diplomacy…. And ignores all the diplomacy that we tried

[@samiamrg7]

He thinks he is so smart for thinking of this, but keeping open the possibility of negotiating a peace has been a basic diplomatic practice for literally thousands of years. That option is always, always on the table, the question is if boths sides can agree on something, and so far, that hasn’t happened.

[@samiamrg7]

Like, this isn’t a fantasy world where nations keep up blood feuds for generations. Wars usually end with negotated settlements, and complete domination of one side by the other like in WW2 is not the norm. It isn’t even the norm for World Wars considering WW1 ended in an armistice, not unconsitional surrender

[@elkosins1686]

@@samiamrg7 but Russia broke all the other peace deals they obviously aren’t working towards peace so why should they get this option for peace that they have been denying the ukranians… the Russians asked for war and now they got it and anyone thinking they should be negotiated with is just kinda dumb

[@samiamrg7]

@@elkosins1686 Ukraine probably can’t fight it’s way to Moscow and force unconditional surrender on Russia, so this war has to end in some kind of treaty or at least a long-term ceasefire á la the Korean War. Unlike past treaties, this one would be backed by the practical experience of Russia meeting considerable resistance and Ukraine getting even closer to NATO, making any future meddling or attempts at military action dangerous and liable to not go well.

[@elkosins1686]

@@samiamrg7 Ukraine has no intention nor does it need to go to Moscow to win it really just needs to hold out… your punishing the ukranians because Russia is choosing to bomb them relentlessly even though they have no chance of invading back…. And now that you see them actually having a chance… your dumbass only now starts asking for peace because it’s convenient to your fascist buddies This war has been pushed on to them without their choice… diplomacy already failed now let them fight you coward

[@aceofsharks9837]

If the Kylie Jenner Pepsi Commercial was a person.

[@stardust3176]

I’ve had indigestions less annoying than this damned debate. Shit was hell 😭😭😭

[@deusdragonex]

I would say that if I die of cancer it's because I listened to this guy talk, but I wouldn't want to play the blame game...

[@ttrestle]

Civilized world: Someone illegally broke into my home, killed some of my family and is trying to steal the entire house. This guy: well, from a libertarian standpoint, the politicians shouldn’t be sending anyone to help you because they’re not sending their own sons, so no one should help you. Civilized world: did you hear what I said? Someone literally broke into my home, killed some of my family members, are trying to kill me, and are going to steal my home or burn it down if they can’t have it. This guy: well, sure it would be nice to help you, but there’s no Plan B if it doesn’t work. I mean this could’ve been avoided in the first place if things and stuff happened you know. In fact, it’s probably your fault somehow.

[@Enoughdata]

When this guy gets swatted, he shouldn't play the blame game and realize he asked for it when he went on this debate and said provocative shit that pissed a lot of people off, so really it's his fault when his life gets ruined :) I'm just using his own logic.

[@dmetriusmarch]

Vibes✅

[@Enoughdata]

Just to dispel any misconceptions, no, I wouldn't actually do this. See, I would like to be better than this guy and not sow more discord into the world. I would rather be the defender, not the aggressor. Unless my life was threatened, I'm not going to choose violence. I'm merely making a point that his logic is flawed.

[@nahtatroll]

Ever notice how libertarians never actually believe in libertarianism when it comes to foreign, totalitarian countries?

[@cronizle]

"Please, call me Girl...Mr. Girl is my father."

[@matthiasnagorski8411]

Guy says he's a libertarian, then fifteen minutes later says that people shouldn't be allowed to protest or revolt against their government.

[@ec_money]

He honestly sounded somewhat authoritarian/Facist, you shouldn’t overthrow a corrupt govt, I favor stability etc etc

[@matthiasnagorski8411]

@@ec_money I don't see a functional difference between libertarians, conservatives, and fascists. Libertarian ideology never, ever, ever meshes with the policies pushed by libertarians. At least, not here in the US.

[@fabrizioart1928]

"No no we need international frameworks, everybody will agree to those." "We have them, and Russia ignores them." "Well, those are not valid because other powerful countries ignore them too." THAT IS EXACTLY THE FKING PROBLEM.

[@MauDib]

I'd be genuinely amazed to find out this dude can tie his own shoes in the morning. IDK what's worse, the brain rot, or his absolute confidence in saying nothing with so many words.

[@andrewfloodeen5720]

“What do you do if the frameworks don’t work?” “Well you go back in time and have better frameworks that would’ve worked.”

[@luigiongaming3959]

The most mind blowing thing ive seen over and over in my life is vaushes ability to play a game like dead cells while having a ukraine/russia debate. I couldnt even talk to my best friend about work on the phone while playing this game.

[@MegaDoomWaffle]

Vaush has a saintly amount of patience. This guy makes me violently angry when I hear vaush make a statement that makes total sense to me and this guy basically ignores it.

[@Savannah-]

"He broke into my house and decided one of my rooms is his and he won't stop physically fighting me for it!" "OK woah, let's not play the blame game here. It's important to stop the violence. Just accept the deal and let him have that one room!"

[@IndellableHatesHandles]

People in government: **do something to solve the issue** This guy: "But, we should do something to solve the issue!"

[@eerieiris7382]

I just came to like the video not relive this hell

[@kreadapelu8813]

This just broke me entirely. I was unable to fathom that any person was capable of whatever the fuck is going on here… I can’t reconcile… how is this possible? This is a weird satirical bit, right? Right?

[@softenbysam]

Dude thinks he's playing 7D chess, but he's playing Tic-Tac-Toe

[@SeanLaMontagne]

"If someone just could have been there in the room to tell Putin not to do this." Thats this entire conversation.

[@jackoski__19]

Dudes like this make me feel shameful for being a computer science nerd

[@lemon93]

I'm only partially associated with comp Sci and this guy makes me wanna go back to lab work and buy a type writer

[@mutterbuffin6916]

You're SO patient. I could never 😅🤣

[@SimpCity2000]

If only there was a law Hitler wouldn't have done what he did. Imagine that.