DEBATE with HANS & DEMONMAMA Goes COMPLETELY OFF THE RAILS (Debate Review)

[@TheJake0fTrades]

In a political climate of growing anti-intellectualism, why would you ever make it easier for parents not to educate their children?

[@joeyjose727]

Okay good point

[@uncomfortabletruth5915]

Anti intellectualism is due at least in part, to a lack of distrust in the system. If that part were addressed, it would be easier to get people to believe such authority.

[@marciamakesmusic]

this is a false equivalence, mandatory public schooling isn't synonymous with education

[@benjaminhawkins9648]

@@uncomfortabletruth5915 While that is true, how would you fix that distrust? Despite all the information and studies available regarding the efficacy and relative safety of vaccines, the anti-vaxx movement is larger than ever. These issues are prevalent enough with the current mandatory curriculum students go through. Removing mandatory schooling would only result in this problem being amplified. If anything, we should be improving the existing school curricula (such as focusing on critical thinking and practical implementations of knowledge gained rather than teaching for standardized tests), increasing funding for schools across the board, and standards and pay for teachers. By making school no longer mandatory, there would be no minimum educational standards for kids (or for the contents of homeschooling), which could easily make things worse in regards to anti-intellectualism

[@belesir8847]

@@marciamakesmusic It is synonymous because without mandatory schooling kids would never get educated. You have to force them.

[@Shadowcam00]

This debate completely sidestepped the issue of abusive parents. Removing mandates for education will help them keep their kids out of school for nefarious purposes: indoctrination into extreme ideologies, forced labor, sexual exploitation, etc. Removing school mandates just makes it that much easier for kids to be isolated from knowledge and resources, which will lead to more abuse.

[@taliaeategg2027]

True

[@l.3ok]

TRU

[@anniemarie63]

Too true

[@Madison-ur2qn]

YES! This was literally my first thought before the debate even started. School is not just for education, it's also practice for interacting with people, it's for building social safety nets. Abuse is most common within the family, so having a third-party seeing your kid nearly every day makes it easier for abuse to be found out, reported, punished, and stopped.

[@randyohm3445]

Exactly. Allowing parents to keep their kids home from school would make them so vulnerable, the harm would be much greater than the harm of making neurodivergent kids attend now. The way to help those kids is to improve school, not to give them the option to just give up on it altogether. Just think about how many abuse cases are caught because the school counselor became suspicious.

[@Yoshimitsu4prez]

Being against mandatory school Is just a very weird position and I don’t think DM defended it well at all. Just sounded like she was stuck on it because anarchism

[@ThePsychoRenegade]

Really seems like she has a vendetta against the whole concept after she had a bad time.

[@bartholen]

It's weird, but not out of the ordinary when it comes to Demonmama (based on what I've seen of her). She just seems to take the most extreme, contrarian, insane positions possible because it drives engagement. And her behavior is insufferable.

[@belesir8847]

she sounded like a libertarian nutjob

[@catrielmarignaclionti4518]

@@belesir8847 arent anarchist the ultimate lib? like, the true lib

[@jakubgrzybowski5646]

but have u considered-yummy foods?

[@marylawrence2218]

I feel like DM had never been around kids. Also, there's a huge amount of privilege in saying "just stay home and tutor your kid"

[@jordannetwork9046]

You don't know the demon mama lore but she's been in a cult for a chunk of her life I mean that's not a big reason but she's right about the problems idk if the situation is good though

[@adeepdive_8205]

@@jordannetwork9046 solution*

[@blanknone5408]

@@jordannetwork9046 NEWS FLASH! All of yous be in a cult. Wake the F up.

[@chanr9531]

Yeah, you’d need to be financially well off to be able to stay home to tutor them/hire a tutor, and if you’re gonna tutor them, you also have to be very well educated otherwise you probably won’t be able to effectively tutor your kids.

[@dillonsmith3633]

yeah, she said if you speak to any child psychologists they would tell you kids want to learn, but I think they mean that in the most general sense. I remember crying as a kid on the first day of kindergarten because I didn't wanna leave my mom. DM's response seems like it would be that I just don't go to school until I stop being homesick (it was fine after that first day)

[@rich9973]

Kid: I'm gonna drink that bleach bottle Demonmama: Well okay then, I can't coerce you or physically restrain you, that would be violating your personal liberties.

[@dillonsmith3633]

picking up the kid is abuse, don't you understand?? /s

[@dudeman5303]

@@SageOfBankai yeah she is just getting worse and worse with this stuff. My god I can't handle it anymore. She may be worse for the left than someone like destiny - who basically lives to strawman us and just hate whatever we want to achieve.

[@theblindprogrammer]

Where does the parents authority over the child stop. then? I know the example you wrote is quite reasonable and rational.

[@nicole9680]

I know Demon Mama had a troubled upbringing but her way of discussing whether or not you can make a kid go to school reeks of privilege. Like just imagine an average two parent household where both of them work and a kid up and says "daddy I don't want to go to school." And the father has work in an hour and he will lose his job if he's late. He has to make the kid go to school or they lose half their income, or the kid stays home alone. The option to sit at home with your kid who doesn't want to go to school and figure out what works best for them is simply not available for the majority of people because school is also childcare for tons of American families. I know her morals probably play out in a society where people have alternative access to childcare and aren't so economically precarious but I just wonder if she realizes how unachievable that shit is for most working parents.

[@broguy9707]

Not to mention a major factor, if you need more income in your family and schools aren't mandatory, logically the best option is to have your kid work. Late stage high schoolers sometimes drop out for this very reason, now imagine school is lifted and kids realize labor allows them to buy new fortnite skins while also allowing dad to pay the electric bill. There are labor laws to protect that ofc, but labor laws were put in place (as were mandated public schooling) as a way to elevate people. Once it starts slipping I can't see a justifiable reason why children (and the voting public thirsty for additional income, especially funded by big business thirsty for cheap labor) would actively choose schooling unless they're in a very specific family or are rational enough to know the value of education (not a guarantee by a long shot).

[@coughfully]

Right? In countries with nonmandatory schooling, parents also send their kids' to work all the time, in factories where they are routinely injured and killed, fields, and sometimes even sell them out for sex. It's disgusting.

[@rutvin8763]

@@coughfully If you live in a developed country, then your comment reeks of even more privilege than the bs put forth by DM in the vid. Are the countless families in the developing world who send their kids off to work in dangerous conditions disgusting because there's something inherently wrong with them or their culture? What if the alternative to sending their kids to work in dangerous conditions was starvation and imminent death? Americans and Europeans have the privilege of not letting their kids die in factory machines in large part because of the centuries of exploitation of countries whose current citizens have little choice but to send their kids into those factories.

[@coughfully]

@@rutvin8763 I don't know where you assumed I said the parents were disgusting (though yes, if you send your kid off into the sex trade you are disgusting idc about your circumstances). I was making the point that in places where school is nonmandatory kids work instead of going to school, which I think sucks because they need education. It's the countries that they live in faults for letting kids be exploited like that, I'm well aware of the reasons why people have to send their kids off to work, and I know the historical context of it. I however find it interesting you said I "reek" of privilege when I simply said it's disgusting minors have to suffer and be exploited in those countries. How is that statement privileged? Im reeking of privilege because I don't want kids to be forced into work and be exploited like that?

[@kittenwizard4703]

@@coughfully yes

[@SlappyRat]

As a teacher with students that enjoy school, it only takes the smallest distraction to get them to skip

[@janefkrbtt]

@The 4th Reich remove yourself

[@spell105]

@@janefkrbtt from life. literally roblox yourself (not you, the guy you replied to)

[@hopoffz]

@Conservative Loli Waifu can you stop hatewatching vaush and replying to every fucking comment on every fucking video LMFAOO

[@nobodysgren7402]

I'm a 20 y/o college student and the urge to skip if I'm 5 minutes late because I'm embarrassed or I think the professor will be upset is so fucking strong.

[@egesanl1]

@@janefkrbtt Don't give the kid atention. They clearly lack the mental capasity to read.

[@christianjones1889]

The population of the U.S. already suffers from a lack of proper education and critical thinking skills. That's a huge part of why there are so many anti-vaxxers (and anti-science beliefs in general). I think that removing mandatory schooling would only exacerbate that...

[@behindtheveilofignorance]

Facts

[@monnaranzoti732]

And let's be real: the majority of homeschooling advocates don't do it for the sake of their child's mental health, but because they want to teach creationism or other shit like that and keep them alienated from sex education. So yeah, it will defnitly worsen the problem.

[@savannarbananar]

Heh heh. Like #69. ♋️🤪

[@tyronechillifoot5573]

@Conservative Loli Waifu lol cope

[@sorrycantspeakfrench]

Yes. Even when the school mandate doesn't adequately provide for tools for evaluating knowledge, weakening that structure that *can* grant such skills will make it worse. People need to know *how* you can evaluate truth, so that when they're distrustful of one institution they won't jump to believing anyone who opposes it with the most concincing fervour. Distrusting 'Big Pharma' is reasonable, but it doesn't make Big Wellness a trustworthy industry either.

[@goldegreen]

As someone for whom school has been pretty much hell after like, 3rd grade, I support mandatory schooling. The solution to a flawed system is not to get rid of it entirely.

[@natethegreatest1000]

Except for capitalism

[@everythingisfine8635]

@@natethegreatest1000 our economy is flawed so we’re removing capitalism not the entirety of our economy

[@anagonyaowusu3119]

@@natethegreatest1000 You realize market socialism is a thing right? People can be allowed to own capital without being a capitalist.

[@natethegreatest1000]

@@everythingisfine8635 yeah, I think I didn’t communicate this well. Capitalism is a flawed system, therefore we should get rid of it haha

[@diegoseba12]

I just notice DM always mentions "fear" when a kid doesn't want to go to school. I don't know if she's ever been a kid, or if she's ever talked to one, but fear IS NOT the only reason a kid may not want to go to school.

[@josephmartins8882]

I was thinking the same thing. The majority of kids who don’t want to go to school don’t because they are afraid, it’s because they would rather do something else

[@apt-get2587]

I'd hazard a guess that DM was that child who was terrified of school and that this is all projection

[@20thPaul]

Yeah for the most part it's because they think school is dull.

[@isislee919]

@@apt-get2587 she literally said she enjoyed school

[@sorrycantspeakfrench]

@@apt-get2587 I think it is the opposite- she liked going to school when she was younger, even with schooling's aforementioned faults, so imagining someone who doesn't seems like an unthinkable situation unless there is a massive amount of fear behind it. I kinda get it as someone who also always valued school and academia very highly (still do), but I still had many problems with attending to it.

[@ThePsychoRenegade]

Even if people want to learn, they definitely won't feel that way as children. I do not want to live in a future where long division is learned at 18.

[@theresa5847]

I do! Freedom! Adults are much more likely to want to learn

[@vontrances4667]

@@theresa5847 You're just making a guess. I have quite literally never met an adult who's not in college that actively wants to learn arithmatic. Most of them have forgotten how to do basic math, and have no good reason to re-learn. Same goes for most of the stuff you learn in elementary school. If its not learned there, the vast majority of adults will not have any motivation to learn. Unless the anti-mandatory school people can show that making school not mandatory will not decrease the number of kids in school, most of everyone will be against it.

[@henrywoolley3733]

@@theresa5847 you learn much easier when ur younger

[@scoutbane1651]

@@theresa5847 Want to learn, but learn way worse. Languages for example. If you start learning languages past a certain point in your childhood you will never *ever* be as fluent as someone who learned it as a kid. There are people who are exceptions but this holds for most.

[@savannarbananar]

@@scoutbane1651 Not only that, but if they never learned anything as a child what’s to make them want to learn as an adult? People are inquisitive and open to new things as adults _because_ they were exposed learning and expanding their minds as children!

[@oxxy6678]

I think I speak for all the whole community when I say, please challenge demonmama on this, we need someone to step to this bad take

[@septic55]

The day school is no longer compulsory will be the day child labor laws will be tweaked to allow kinds back to work. You can insist kids should be allowed to do something other than school if they hate it but the reality is not every family can afford some private day activity for their kid while both parents have to work full time jobs.

[@foreverdm7000]

Getting replies from a Nazi and a conservative pedo troll should be some sort of achievement

[@douglaslangley9251]

@@foreverdm7000 ikr? Astounding

[@rll1236]

@@foreverdm7000 looool

[@yasin_GD]

@Crabby - i think the amount was just right

[@GigasGMX]

We used to let kids roam around the neighborhood unsupervised and interact with each other before Amber Alerts made everyone insane.

[@christianjones1889]

I'm wondering if DemonMama has ever dealt with little kids. Picking your kid up and forcing them to go places is not the extreme hypothetical she seems to think it is. It's a daily occurrence for parents everywhere, and letting kids do everything they want is only going to produce excessively entitled adults...

[@viktorlindqvist5308]

Demon Mama: Invents the feral child Hanz: Builds even more on the feral child (showing how ridiculous it is) Demon Mama: Woah woah woah! What's with this Feral Child, I don't think this Feral Child you're talking about is even remotely representative of the average kid!!! No kidding, what's this gaslighting shit I'm seeing? Inventing something that is obv. dumb and then try to convince your opponent and audience the opponent was the one who invented it. Jesus fucking christ man

[@pixelk8261]

making schools mandatory has a dual effect of not only requiring every child to receive an education but also requiring the STATE to provide an education for every child. If education were no longer mandatory for children, the state would drop that shit SO fast. In most states, public schools are already so underfunded that the quality of education is dependent solely on income tax and other factors of socioeconomic class - already putting those who need education most (the working class) at a disadvantage, continuing the cycle of economic oppression. The state WANTS to defund education, it's been doing so slowly for decades. If school wasn't mandatory, the little money regulated to schools in poorer neighborhoods (who are most often poc communities bc institutional racism, red lining, and income taxes) would most definitely be sent to the police budget. This has ALREADY BEEN HAPPENING, as in my own city millions of dollars were funneled out of the public library budget and almost that exact same amount was added to the police department budget. also if we don't mandate school then how would children in abusive family situations know that what they are experiencing is abuse? If their parents take them out of school, they would have very little to no support network outside of the home/family, and even if they knew that they were being abused (which, most people don't until they are educated on what abuse is/how to spot signs of abuse. as DM said kids are very trusting) they wouldn't have as many people to reach out to for help. I get DM's concerns as someone who is also neuro-atypical but we still deserve a good education, and the state is required to give us one as a basic human right.

[@akebjornblad9478]

truancy laws?

[@Iloveguitar07]

THIS!

[@mnmr1996]

I’ve always wondered why ppl who advocate for non mandatory schools never account for just bad parents. With how “political” schools have gotten especially recently what if a parent goes like “you’re not learning that CRT LGBT crap on my watch”. How do you account for parents who work on farms that have incentives for their kid to help out around the farm instead of getting an education. It just seems like a pipe dream that doesn’t account for bad actors.

[@uncomfortabletruth5915]

Family farms exploiting their own children to profit. I doubt that would be a serious thing.

[@Snuredrams]

@@uncomfortabletruth5915 you are delusional.

[@inebriationconversation4526]

@@uncomfortabletruth5915 parents using children for the family business isnt a serious thing?

[@chanr9531]

This is the biggest thing DM never addresses. Like we already have a lot of these type of parents going hard on home schooling so they can teach their kids the way they want which usually is more conservative views and not making schools a mandate is only going to worsen this problem.

[@uncomfortabletruth5915]

@@Snuredrams All I mean is, that may have been an issue 100 years ago but I don’t believe it is one today. Can you show this is a recent crisis?

[@ManicPandaz]

The more I see of DM the less I like of her.

[@GMAH111]

there's a reason Vaush doesn't upload their arguments against each other :^)

[@kingkat_]

me too. i'm a baby lefty and haven't seen much of her, but every time i see her debate she gives me more reasons to not like her, or at least just her content and debates

[@kevincola3184]

I used to really like her but in the last year she has seemingly become way more bad faith and really annoying while strongly defending some pretty bad takes. Every 1v1 debate I see with her in it, she's often bad faith, refuses to engage, constantly interrupts everyone but hates whenever someone interrupts her, tries to do a lot of stupid gotchas/dunks and has those irritating and dumb performative facial expressions. I think she was far better on debate panels when she wasn't as well-known as she is now, tbh.

[@alandgomez5905]

This is my second try lol.

[@auggy69]

schools/education not being mandatory would be absolutely devastating for poor children/families i hope DM knows that lol

[@Yepmyaccount]

@Dylan Williams This was solved by the invention of the school bus, dawg.

[@Yepmyaccount]

It would also be devastating to the schools themselves, since the current format for funding is based on property tax and how many students are currently enrolled in the school.

[@Gweezy12]

@Dylan Williams yeah your just giving kids a reason to hit the streets. The percentage of kids that would happen to is small. School buses and public transit is a thing.

[@mockingbird4346]

@@Yepmyaccount That's actually a terrible point, there are a large number of kids not able to use a school bus or other form of transportation (particularly in red states). I agree with mandatory schooling (Though I think RiverboatJack absolutely made Hanz look like a clown on the idea that you can't use things other than homework and tests to teach kids, so it really sucks that the dipshits arguing against kids needing to go to school are the ones arguing for things like using games to teach them.) but this argument ignores a serious issue.

[@Yepmyaccount]

@@mockingbird4346 I don't think the ineptitude of red states to fund literally anything that is a proven solution to problems is an argument against those solutions. Sure, there are some *niche* scenarios where transportation could be an issue, but it's nothing that simply providing more public transportation and better urban planning doesn't solve. It's an issue of US infrastructure being shit at that point. As for the issue of kids being taken away, as Vaush points out in the video, this almost never happens, because unless the home environment is so poor that it's literally abusive and you'd take the child away anyhow, parents are typically going to make their kids go to school. Even the most neglectful parents are going to force them because they don't want to deal with them at home, and it acts a babysitting. Furthermore, these kinds of points (which happen entirely too often and make discourse fall apart as evidenced by this debate), is that we're arguing on the presumption that we are renovating the whole system, not just making vacuum changes to the system. Obviously, in a 'leftist vs leftist' debate on the issue, we can assume the scenario is one in which we are properly funding public utilities and idealizing school programs.

[@OhioMan1854]

This whole conversation makes me wish I could go back through school knowing I have depression. Thinking I was just a lazy sack of shit really hurt. I didnt know why I was feeling the way I was feeling. Feels like my whole childhood to my teens was wasted.

[@Yepmyaccount]

Feels bad that it's not until after I'm done with college that I realize I had ADHD and depression. >Why can't I just start the homework??? >proceed to waste the night and my time doing literally anything else, including nothing

[@OhioMan1854]

@@Yepmyaccount For real

[@MetalxLicaxPP]

Right? I thought that I was just a "pathetic failure" as my parents put it, barely passing the easiest shit because I was "too lazy to try". Fast forward 5 years and it turned out I had chronic depression, lmao

[@Lotan_]

The fact my education/ability to learn was so badly hindered by this very thing infuriates me to this day. Often times I just end up wondering what I could've been by now, if I'd had a better environment that recognised and dealt with these issues.

[@katelynlamatry1025]

And other kids will always chalk up subpar performance to stupidity. Being constantly berated by your classmates for being an idiot and by your teachers & parents for being lazy just to later find out you had an untreated mental illness, chronic depression, GD, etc that made it much more difficult for you to engage with school hurts so much. I vividly remember the one time I got school counseling went so poorly that I wrote off the whole idea of mental health treatment for years afterward.

[@Conformist138]

"You don't have to apply any level of force to make a child go to school." LOL, she didn't know my little brother. He was all about fun, and not rules. School meant he couldn't just do whatever he wanted, when he wanted, and he resisted from kindergarten onward. Not because others were mean to him, just because he's ridiculously stubborn about getting his own way.

[@IamIK3]

This 1000%. Like, has DM interacted with children within the last decade? Kids are just as pointlessly stubborn as adults can be, just less skilled at rationalizing their behavior.

[@Conformist138]

@azimuth eventually, yes. He got into some various trouble in hs, and was told he had one school left he could attend, or he'd attend school in juvenile detention. By then, he'd seen how mom and dad couldn't help him once the cops were involved, so he took the threat seriously enough to finish high school.

[@ashfox7498]

@@IamIK3 I refuse to believe that DM didn't just watch Sesame Street or Nick Jr and just decide that's what kids are like IRL.

[@TheGIGACapitalist]

>Just make learning games more fun than games that are specifically made to be addictive to children Yeah okay champ.

[@normandy2501]

In certain cases it could work at the early stages. My parents picked up an emulator that was called Leap Frog I think. It obviously wasn't as fun as playing Ocarina of Time and Mario 64, but it held my attention more than traditional homework did. It's so much easier for kids and adults alike to he distracted by something that teaching methods should at least attempt to adapt over time in certain areas where possible.

[@ashfox7498]

Who needs social studies when we can have Fortnite's tribute to MLK Jr.

[@TheUndeadMew]

Honestly demon mama used nurodivergent kids as a weapon the whole time. At every point Hans made she'd always give an increasingly extreme situation of a kid who had some sort of learning disability or anxiety. She was never focused on actually improving conditions for them rather, they were a convenient goal post to always move away from Hans's questions.

[@Shadowcam00]

Her whole take was nothing but utopian. There's a lot more nuance that goes into our schooling system and its relation with children and parents(who could be bad actors themselves) than just increasing incentives so the kids want to go. And i can't help but think she's not taking varying degrees of neurodivergence into account. I'm not neurotypical, and i hated school, but i still needed to get socialization to avoid becoming an outcast. If it was up to me at the time, I'd have refused to attend, and gone down a very counterproductive path.

[@alesalazar1175]

Exactly! And then Hans responded saying schooling should be mandatory *but* also made as accommodating, tolerable and encouraging neurodivergent kids as possible That's a possible solution! And then he asked Demon mama what she would suggest instead and she never gave an answer that went beyond saying 'there are a million thing we could do' and then only mentioning tutoring (not possible for every or even most people). Terrible solution. What are the million things we could do??

[@Robbay363]

It kind of reminded me of the way people sometimes talk about felon voting. Like sure you could go on and on about how serial killers shouldn't be allowed to vote but in doing so you are sidestepping the main issue. I have terrible anxiety and ADHD and I hated every moment of school but I'm still glad I went, it helped me learn how to function in social situations. I think the best prescription is to maintain compulsory education while trying to make it as accessible as possible.

[@MisterRorschach90]

Listening to vaush explain stuff with Mario going “hmmm” “hmmm” over and over is trippy.

[@korovabozha4963]

@The 4th Reich Why is the bait comments getting even lazier? First anime pfps, but now this? Bad job, you’re fired, no pensions.

[@NoNo-fr2ev]

@The 4th Reich 4th Reich more like Joe mama

[@jeremymr]

Vaush is the king of multi-tasking

[@D-OW]

@Conservative Loli Waifu Lmao, ok anime pfp

[@the_chosen_one5642]

@The 4th Reich centralize your profile picture

[@Krakkk]

Vaush has such a soft spot for DM. My god shes avoiding his question 10 times and he still acts like she's good faith.

[@Iloveguitar07]

Having no school will make more people grow up and be more anti intellectual

[@italucenaz]

good thing absolutelly no one is saying we should have no school

[@Iloveguitar07]

@@italucenaz but allowing it so that there is no mandatory school will allow more anti intellectualism

[@italucenaz]

@@Iloveguitar07 the no mandatory school argument is made in conjunction to making alternative ways of education outside traditional school and improving it too

[@verager2493]

@@italucenaz so much further along and not remotely feasible today? I agree

[@exhermit]

Happy Vaush stuck to his guns and criticized DM here. Her performance here was absolutely awful. And to the people unable to give Hanz the praise he deserved here by both sides-ing, I'm sorry but you're allowed to criticize DM completely on her own without needing to show you're not some hater or something by dragging Hanz with some lame comment. "DM was terrible, but Hanz... Hanz was also mean!" No, no he wasn't. He was incredibly patient with DM's continued antagonism and useless reasoning. And no, I am not a Hanz fan. Never heard of him until this debate.

[@Yepmyaccount]

I'm not a Hanz fan, but I was expecting to come into this with him being all guns blazing based on my only prior experience listening to his debate with Joe, to instead find he seemed pretty calm coming into this like he wanted to just have an actual discussion. Really hate the 'I'm trying to be spicy!' thing DM has going. Seems like an excuse to justify bad behavior at this point.

[@exhermit]

@@Yepmyaccount oh lord, the “spicy” schtick and “bad faith” cop out are among the worst traits she has. And it’s all down to ego. She can NEVER admit to being wrong on anything, ever. Her unwavering pride is ultimately her biggest obstacle to any potential growth she might be able to attain through these discussions, and it’s honestly sad at best and insufferable at worst.

[@mockingbird4346]

DM lost this debate, *hard*. It's just a shame it was to Hanz because such a bad content creator really didn't need the ego boost. Also if we're going to criticize anything I think the fact he literally admitted to acting in bad faith for a portion of this debate is probably deserving of criticism. My biggest issue with DM in this was simple, if she's going to make herself a punching bag for a whole debate at least do it with someone who has better arguments.

[@zaatas]

@@mockingbird4346 He tried to argue with her with better arguments but she flipped out and wouldn't bite the bullet for the very obvious outcome to what her stance would mean. Parents would just end up being the new mandate, but only for their children. So children without parents that care are just left in the wind.

[@mockingbird4346]

@@zaatas I strongly disagree, some of the first arguments he jumped to were ones that were logically questionable and rhetorically ineffective. To argue the correct position of mandatory schooling, you don't need to make up insane hypotheticals like a kid that throws themself through the nearest window any time any form of education is brought up.

[@calrose]

There’s more of an argument for mandatory school than mandatory vaccines. We need a highly educated society in order to have a functional democracy & high literacy rates correlates to more advanced society.

[@Scooter_Alice]

As a former child, I can confirm that I didn't want to go to school, even though it ended being pretty helpful for me. I wouldn't have gone if I didn't have to, regardless of incentive. As an adult, I can also confirm that leaving it in the hands of parents is also not a good idea. I have great parents, but not everyone does. Mandatory schooling really does feel like the best way, even though the system has plenty of other problems that should be addressed.

[@chanr9531]

Exactly. There’s a lot of shitty parents and they’d actively harm the kid educationally if we left it to them. Also practically speaking, the good parents will already be doing similar things as what the government mandates for schools and education so there’s that as well. DM’s insistence on this super good faith assumption for all parents as well as wanting to leave these important life changing decisions to kids is really baffling to me. She’s been a kid herself and you can’t tell me she never made really short sighted dumb kid decisions in life before.

[@dillonsmith3633]

i am also a former child as well! I did not wanna go to school lol

[@DieNibelungenliad]

I think DemonMama should become a babysitter for one week

[@mrrdirty6198]

I would feel bad for the child.

[@italucenaz]

@@mrrdirty6198 why? isn't the accusation being made that she is too liberal and will do whatever the child wants?

[@blitz8425]

@@italucenaz yes, which is bad.

[@adrianpaulblake]

Maybe she will just randomly scream whenever the child says something 3 minutes into her diatribe

[@haloeightYT]

I'm a simple man. I see DemonMama, I close the tab

[@TheStraightGod]

She's in the title, why even click on the video?

[@haloeightYT]

@@TheStraightGod comment for the algorithm of course

[@dazuntare973]

Healthy behaviour (not being sarcastic btw... DM is just aggravating to listen to)

[@strongbone9471]

1:04:02 i hate when people do this. Hans did not ask if demonmama will PERSONALLY do anything. He asked what the state should do. Holy shit. Vaush point it out please.

[@HanzOfHarkir]

He was trying to be super charitable to DM who was malding in his chat. Don't hate him for trying to protect a friend, even if it was frustrating.

[@midnightnavigator]

Lots of people do this. It's annoying but I've seen this a lot, it's a slight pivot from the question to get more time to think instead of stopping to think so they don't look stumped. Or to bait the other to engage with that answer instead of the original question. I'm sure even Vaush has done it a few times. Best tactic is to brush it off and bring people back to the question and pressure them to answer or concede.

[@XxFATfishREBORNxX]

Vaush should never review a DemonMama debate again, holy shit this was awful and biased

[@Jade-qm5wo]

@@HanzOfHarkir LMAO was she really????????

[@KumihoMahao]

@@XxFATfishREBORNxX Indeed. Clearly she was not being good faith at all. She talked the whole debate.

[@ijiwarux]

Even as someone who nearly went to court multiple times for truancy I think mandatory schooling is extremely important. Without mandatory schooling there will be neglectful parents who will ruin their children’s lives by never teaching them anything. I knew so many people whose parents didn’t give a single shit about them and even at a young age had to be independent to get up and go school and feed themselves. There is a lot of issues with truancy and truancy court, but we can improve that and offer more safe guards for kids with disabilities, mental health issues, people on the spectrum, and any other reason why schooling may be hard for someone. I also think that if we changed how highschool is it would improve people’s desires to attend. Let people have more agency in what they want to learn in academics after they have the fundamentals. In highschool I don’t think you need 2 algebra classes and the average person doesn’t need to know about fusion and fission.

[@bam19985]

Kid doesn't know about fusion, proceeds to think the sun is turned out using a big light switch by the "globalists".

[@tophunter4865]

Boy, imagine if they had asked a teacher to come weigh in...cause boy do I got opinions.

[@danim955]

Same here. Everything demonmama said I was just wishing I could respond.... I was glad Vaush brought up the food comparison of health for the better of the child at least. But seriously everytime she mentioned "neurodivergence" I was listing off differentiation, different types of learning, IEP plans, paras/special ed teacher support, working with conquering trauma and fears rather than just avoiding them. I've been with upper-middle class schools and impoverished schools too. World of difference in literacy when I'm with the school that has consistently truant kids and it just continues inequality as they age up and are more likely to drop of high school... man. Even the take that very young kids will choose to go to school while knowing how homesick little ones cry until they get used to new settings. It feels like she hasnt been around kids.

[@tophunter4865]

@@danim955 I teach in a title 1 school that's like..89-95% black? And In my lower classes, I have 1-3 ish that really don't want to be there, but I push that trades need to be able to learn and read, write and do math. And that they are some damn good money. But, we do need 1: more money for alternative schools and 2: better ways to deal with continually disruptive students. We have an alternative school here, and we have two in our current building we are working on getting sent there as one won't be able to grow with you extreme interventions as they have 0 motivation, and the other is super disruptive to everyone in every class, to the degree that when they are not there, the classes function well. But yeah, I had to stop watching as the points were....annoying to listen to. And I felt bad for Mr. Voush being unable to find that blue coin.

[@luxborealis]

@@danim955 Yeah, I am a licensed teacher even though I work as a researcher, and like a good quarter of my pedagogics classes back in college were about how to adjust the system for special cases.

[@kevincola3184]

I wish DemonMama hadn't come to Vaush's chat, it just makes it more difficult to for him to criticize her and the chat suddenly becomes very friendly to her.

[@filipz8831]

Mandatory schooling is probably the most important thing, way beyond mandatory vaccines

[@dillonsmith3633]

yeah, pretty sure crime and poverty would increase massively, resulting in a lot of death.

[@nyxboi427]

You know, I get why DemonMama thinks the way she does, but this debate really feels like some "you can't make me wear a seat belt" stuff. Not gonna lie, DemonMama's argument kinda comes of unhinged here.

[@Darkblitz777]

I'm sorry but denying a child an education when they can receive one is flat out child abuse, I do not give a single fuck if a child doesn't want to go to school, they're not old enough to make that decision. If you're an adult and don't want to go to college, that's cool, but a little kid doesn't get to choose whether they go to elementary school or not.

[@Eagledude131]

Gonna be honest, DM is exactly the kind of person I would never want to jokingly debate for any reason. Breaks her own rules that she forces everyone else to follow

[@logarhythmic6859]

DM regularly does one of my pet peeves; when somebody is interrupted, they say "Hold on, let me finish............" and then pause for a full 5 seconds before continuing. I can't stand that. If you want to finish your statement, don't leave 5 seconds of dead air time inviting other people to interrupt.

[@darkarchonisme]

@@logarhythmic6859 and she does it in EVERY debate panel show she gets on, where she goes onm and on and on and gets incredibly offended, and personally attacked by other people wanting to also speak. She's a crybully, who weaponizes accusations of her victimhood, sometimes imagined out of whole cloth. like the hippy dibby revote bullshit was an example of this as well

[@wojtek43]

I like her power move of, when she wants to interrupt him, saying "excuse me" even when there's a long natural pause or she asks him a question. I said the magic words, that makes you the interrupter. She's cut from the same cloth as people who turn on their hazard lights as if it absolves them from any parking infringement.

[@hazardous0887]

Demon Mama accusing anyone of arguing in bad faith is rich 😂

[@comradeanthony4120]

As a preschool teacher and child development major this is hard to listen to. I love DM but she gets a LOT wrong. Do you have any idea the amount of kids that come to preschool at 3 screaming and crying the first few weeks pretty much every day for those 14 days? It's like 90% of them. The fear of being away from their primary care giver for the first time is so absolutely normal and part of healthy child development that we get concerned for that 10% that AREN'T afraid and crying.

[@animeking17]

And the school environment is very important and home schooling wouldn't provide that

[@ashfox7498]

@@animeking17 That's probably the #1 thing, sometimes socialization is hard; especially when you're an awkward dweeb. Can any of us remember more lessons from school than social interactions? I remember a handful of random activities we did but 99% of the stuff from my school days I can recall are when I was cringey and embarrassing myself.

[@dillonsmith3633]

Yeah, I remember crying on the first day lol.. I definitely didn't wanna leave my mom, but I'm pretty sure after the first day it wasn't as bad and I got used to it :-)

[@Generic-Username]

This is the dumbest take DemonMama has ever had. Seriously disappointed.

[@misterdemocracy3335]

I was too. I feel like maybe she’s arguing about it principally in terms of being an anarchist and against coercion, but there were a lot of times where she wasn’t acknowledging the importance of education and making the conversation go in unproductive directions. At one point I was starting to wonder how this “non-coercion” would even be enforced, and aren’t you undermining parents ability to parent if they too are not allowed to “coerce” their child into going to school? Idfk it was convoluted.

[@poltergeist7776]

Ooff DM's argument is reaaallly leaving a bad taste in my mouth. I feel like she is not at all acknowledging the potential abuse that might result from making school attendance optional, since this also gives parents the power to keep their child at home, even against their will. For example, a physically abusive parent might not want their child attending school for fear that they might tell someone, that a teacher might notice bruises or that the child might understand from their interaction with other kids that their home situation is neither normal nor acceptable. In this case, the child would not only be victim to the physical abuse of their parents, but will also be denied basic education and the safe space of a school where their abuser does not have control over them. Similarly, mandatory schooling has always been closely connected to child labour laws. Parents might keep their child at home so that they can help around their workplace (for example as a waiter if the parents have a restaurant or something) or help around their family (for example babysit their infant sibling). Again, this just gives parents the power to **coercively** keep their child uneducated. And even if the parents are not actively coercing their children to stay at home, such situations can still psychologically pressure children to do so. I imagine a lot of children would rather help out their struggling parents than go to school, even if we have a utopian school system where everything is super fun. However, in the long-term these children would be severely disadvantaged because of their lacking education. I feel like a lot of these concerns are really callously disregarded, and I'm honestly kind of wondering why nobody really brought them up. And just DM's entire line of argumentation seems, honestly, irresponsible and divorced from the real world.

[@mizel101]

I feel like a lot of DM's content is her working out her own traumatic past

[@MrSaxokeet]

Not at all it brings depth into her arguments she was right 100% on the content of the debate talk to any educator and get to the real meat of this discussion and not the broad generalizations and ANY admin, to gen ed classroom teaching assistant they would agree

[@jansettler4828]

@@MrSaxokeet Absolutely delusional. The fact that DM thinks you can get children to go to school by any other measure than coersion is batshit crazy and that you agree with her shows you both need a big dose of grass-touching.

[@Andrius971]

@@MrSaxokeet She is right on some basics, the same basics that Hans agreed with. Studying could be improved via using various games and other more interactive activities. The problem is not that. The problem is that DM then argued that this improvement of studying will then cuse for mandatory schooling to not be necessary, because children would go there on their own will. Which is quite frankly, an utopian view. Not only are we a century (at least) away before such improved interactive schooling because accesible to most schools, this would not stop kids from choosing entertainment over education, especially since entertainment will also evolve in such time.

[@adeepdive_8205]

@@MrSaxokeet except they wouldn't.

[@jeremyjean13]

@@MrSaxokeet I don't know which "educators" you think would agree with her on this. I teach high school, and DM couldn't be more wrong in this one.

[@ashfox7498]

Demonmama I believe has never seen a child in her life, she saw Nick Jr and thinks the eager-to-learn bright and cheery characters are accurate representations of children.

[@bibubbletea]

I definitely agree with mandatory schools, we should just make school a lot better and more customizable for students so they can make the most out of the time they need to attend. Like if they really know they’re going into the trades, let’s let them take classes in the trades, my highschool was really good about this and offered programs for future teachers, doctors, tradespeople, a few different things like that, so they could be partly certified by the time they left highschool. Or offer a lot of different electives, another reason I loved my high school because it was well funded enough to have classes like stage production, cooking classes, sewing, architecture, coding, engineering, and that allowed my high school experience to be great because I actually was motivated in those classes compared to the classes in math that I had to take that I don’t like (I get why I had to take them but I still just didn’t like math). Just make the core subject classes better, offer options to take college classes or get certifications in careers students are interested in, and offer many options for electives and extracurricular activities, that’s what we should be working towards in education.

[@joshecker6907]

@@MofaGames dude real life is so much harder than school, kids need to face challenges rather than end up challenge averse or else life will steamroll the shit out of them. Besides, tutoring and homeschooling is an option for people who can't physically handle being in a classroom. Illiteracy can ruin your life, and learning new concepts as an adult is incredibly difficult compared to learning while young.

[@mockingbird4346]

@@MofaGames Online schooling is an option, I point this out as someone who opted into it later into my schooling. Also your idea that making kids go to school in some form is literally torture is not only the stupidest take I've ever heard but it makes me 100% certain you've literally never dealt with something more traumatic than a stubbed toe.

[@drts6955]

Honestly I think I overall benefited from school and on balance I support. But to think school is going to be enjoyable or profitable for everyone is nonsense. There are so many downsides too. I quite enjoyed school but honestly I don't get this school is easy nonsense. The challenges of being forced to obey a totalitarian system (dramatic, yes, but true) are waaaay bigger than being an "adult" where you have so much freedom the mind boggles. That said, I do understand everyone is different etc I think the best thing that can be said for traditional school is everyone goes and there're massive benefits to being "normal". Also, everything I'm saying is sort of tangential to the actual debate. I think responsible patenting requires making decisions for your child

[@bibubbletea]

@@drts6955 I don’t think it’ll ever be enjoyable for everyone and I definitely think we should explore things like reduced school hours but I think there are just so many benefits if it’s done right. And it’s pretty easy to tweak the current system without that much effort to get much better benefits. And my school even offered half days for 11th and 12th graders to do college classes, career programs, and even some part-time jobs. That’s a huge step up from the hell stories I’ve heard about other schools. There are just so many things that we can try out before we give up because it’s not going to work for everyone. If you’re someone who likes school then you’ll be fine and if you’re someone who can’t wait to get out of it then these types of changes would benefit you a lot by allowing you to customize your education. It’ll also let them have more freedom because they can practice making these important decisions for themselves instead of just being forced to take a few core classes and get maybe two class slots for things they care about. There are also always online schools if the issue is physical schools themselves. But I just could never get behind letting parents be responsible for something so important because it’ll be abused by some and the kids could be educationally neglected.

[@drts6955]

@@bibubbletea I agree. And beyond the fact that many parents who homeschool are woeful, I think it's important to expose children to wider society, including teachers and others students. So overall I genuinely support traditional schools. However I do think the realities of group teaching in classes are inherently problematic. It's not just "not the best" but it's simply not possible to teach a large group of students well in most subjects. The best way to teach is individually or in small groups, I just don't think there's any way around that

[@MichaelDude12345]

Dear lord, both of these people are completely missing the forest for the trees. I'm sure at least SOME people know why we have mandated schooling for children. And it's funny that Vaush brought up the Era where people were leaving farm jobs to go work in factories, because that is the time period where we began to do this. The point of mandatory schooling was not because of the kids making any choices, they are unformed people, they never make these decisions when they are below a certain age anyways, it's always their parents that make decisions about their schooling. And back during that time period most people who were poor were having kids to help work farms and in factories before we had child labor laws. Wealthy people were able to send their kids to school and have them leverage their education for better employment opportunities. The point of mandatory schooling was to stop people from making it so that their kids go and work instead of going to school to have an education. The whole point of having a free public education is actually to strengthen our democracy (since educated people who can actually read, are obviously better at our form of republican "self-governance" where you need to know what laws your reps are signing). If the rich kids were the only ones who could read, then the poor kids would be crippled as citizens and they are just too young to make that decision for themselve. It also just isn't fair to them to leave the decision up to their parents if they struggle financially, because in that case, what is best for the child doesn't always come before what is best for the family as a whole.

[@ksilva2848]

Leftist meme

[@MrHodoAstartes]

Yeah, they both make terrible arguments and DM really misses on the technicality of the alternative within the compulsory schooling system already exists in the form of special education in the various forms that can take. Constructing a completely absurd edge case and ignoring the obvious answers of improving on the glaring faults of the underfunded and outdated systems really just makes your position untenable. And of course the compulsion is actually for the parents. Any step back from the mandate of education is a step towards a fully separate parallel society of religious extremists who try to shut out reality from their lives.

[@belesir8847]

Lol @ DM's arguments in this debate. How far removed from reality do you have to be to argue that children love going to school????

[@Gweezy12]

I think vaush was going easy on DM. Her arguments her are wildly nonsensical. This imaginary handoff system would destroy education

[@jansettler4828]

DM is the most delusional and harmfull online leftist I know, after maybe Redacted from Redacted

[@jjdude5531]

@@jansettler4828 nice meme

[@TrueGamer22887]

@@jjdude5531 she’s non ironically horrendous for the left. Other than talkies she’s easily the worst. Unhinged in every debate she’s apart of and does weird stuff like holding her friendship over people during disagreements.

[@jansettler4828]

@@TrueGamer22887 I remember the one she had with Vaush, and the amount of bullshit she spouted made me think she is bad faith and only in it for clout. Since then, everything I saw from her has just further cemented that opinion.

[@TrueGamer22887]

@FunDumb Hero I don’t even care how bad her takes are, it’s the cry bully stuff. Stuff like how she constantly interrupts people yet is the first one to complain about being interrupted

[@Thunderkeg]

Love how DemonMama slinked into chat midway through the analysis like "better not say anything bad about me Voosh I'm here watching"

[@themasterofdungeons9196]

Demonmama is insufferable. She interrupted far more but threw a tantrum whenever Hans slightly raised his voice.

[@sasak369]

What I think is being mostly overlooked here is that the cause of a child not going to school isn't necessarily the will of the child, but the will of the parents. Teens are more difficult, but especially like grade school age kids are usually quite happy to go to school and even take a large degree of responsibility for their own education. And even with teens, they've generally had their relationship with education thoroughly poisoned, but in systems that grant them more freedom, eg Montessori/Waldorf schools there are virtually no problems with kids across ages refusing to learn. The people most likely to abuse a system that allows them not to educate their children is parents who are abusive, in cults, conspiracy theorists, that kind of thing. If children are unable to go to school for a number of reasons, I'm fully in favor of offering online school programs and even homeschooling on the condition that there are regular tests to ensure they're learning things on an appropriate level for their age/grade.

[@Snuredrams]

Thank you! It's been so frustrating to see this point not even glossed over but straight up ignored. I was homeschooled by an extremely paranoid agoraphobic mother. In florida, there was no oversight, no standards that have to be met, and you can get your child a to "graduate" from a shell private school with absolutely no testing. This led to me having my education and social life being entirely neglected. I WISH school was mandatory because in the US as it stands now with homeschooling loopholes its a joke to say it is. And seeing people pushing for it to be even less enforced by the state is infuriating from my perspective.

[@xkriolox]

I also Thank you! I came here just to mention that the most important part of mandatory school is protecting children from abusive parents. For children that have some special situation going on there are generally alternative solutions in someway verified by the state. In Brasil it seems that the most common way of finding family members that engage in sexual abuse of kids is due to the school community. And that is probably true in other places as well.

[@doperagu8471]

@@xkriolox yes! Teachers are what we call "mandated reporters" in the US. If they see any sign of abuse, they must report it. Otherwise they could face legal consequences. And this fact alone is one of the reasons that mandatory school is so important. If a parent is already abusive or neglectful, what is going to motivate them to bring their kids to school, if not for legal consequences?

[@strongbone9471]

This debate is just the Crack version of the destiny v hasan debate.

[@SuniRedPanda]

@The 4th Reich cringe reich

[@SteveSunny]

There was a destiny vs Hasan debate?

[@Human-dr7kr]

@@SteveSunny smh. someone needs to touch less grass and learn the lore

[@SteveSunny]

@@Human-dr7kr Honestly, true

[@kacy6486]

it doesn’t matter how sick your incentives are there are still abusive parents who will force kids to stay home and poor parents/kids who feel that making money is more important.

[@linzlsleepy1627]

52:00 I’m a teacher, and DM’s take here is just laughably wrong. She said go to the education professionals, but if you did then they would completely disagree with her. She’s conflating the absorption ability of growing brains with a conscious desire to learn. Gamification is so useful in schools because it basically TRICKS kids into learning. And it’s not the be all end all of techniques-the competition it invites can be detrimental to some students. More often than not those kids she’s talking about are the ones who gamification doesn’t work for. SOME kids like to learn. SOME kids don’t physiologically have capacity to determine whether or not learning will be useful to them in the future and don’t want to do it no matter what. And that’s not an insignificant number. This conversation would blow Ed professionals away with its stupidity. Getting the state to institute compulsory education was a big win that took decades of fighting for. It not only holds parents accountable, it holds a the state accountable to provide that education. If enough students no longer go to school, our public school system would lose all funding and collapse. It’s already on the brink of this because of charter schools. Then without public schools, all that would remain would be private schools. We’d go back to square one. Only the wealthy would be able to afford an education. The inequality gap would become insurmountable.

[@BOBJOEx2]

I wasn't a fan of DM before this. My abuser in the past would hold our relationship over my head when we would disagree, when I see that shit it screams abuse to me. I don't like the way she conducts herself and she crossed the fucking line in this conversation. I'm blinded by my biases to see the value she brings. Her position is dumb and her arguments were weak ending with the tactics of an abuser. I'm disgusted Vaush who is smart enough to see it didn't say anything. Maybe it was because she was in his chat. Her "so I'm a tankie now" fucking disgusting. That's that insecure shit he fights against! I wish I could know why he didn't point it out. I wish someone would call out her toxic behavior. Man. I wish I didn't watch this.

[@kite9d3]

She brings zero value. You might find a little catharsis in Destiny’s review of this debate (where he actually reviews it unlike this waste of a video). I thought he did a decent job of calling out most of her flagrantly obvious BS tactics.

[@MaliciousCorpse]

You're kinda disgusting yourself not gonna lie but I wont get into that sorry your abuser hurt you and you feel the need to then paint that on top of another person you don't know from anywhere else but an online platform. Hope you get some therapy for your issues.

[@darkarchonisme]

she acts like a crybully - always framing every single interaction where she doesn't get her way - which is to speak over other people constantly and get mad at anyone else who speaks for 30 seconds - as someone being horrible to her and mistreating her. See also her trying to weasel a recount of votes about winning a dylan burn's debate panel, that entire video was such bad faith and full of abuser mentality rhetoric from her that it honestly disgusted me

[@MaliciousCorpse]

@@darkarchonisme You don't have to like her that's fine, I just don't agree with someone saying she disgusts you because she reminds you of a past abuser. We see her online, and not behind closed doors. I think saying you're disgusted because she reminds you of someone else is pretty biased with how your placing feelings onto someone else who you imagine in your head. We don't know her, we just don't and we see a picture of it and it's not pretty to everyone. You gave a reason for your disgust I get that, but saying she disgusts you because of what someone else did to you is biased.

[@kite9d3]

@@MaliciousCorpse So, you feel entitled to call someone disgusting based on reading a single youtube comment... yet you want to invalidate their right to call someone disgusting based on witnessing minutes if not hours of that person's interactions?? With mental gymnastics like that, it's no surprise you like demon so much.

[@zingercheese3454]

As a teacher, this debate gave me brain cancer.

[@onelessthing]

Does Demon Mama have any experience with children? Because having worked with kids in the past, and having been a challenging kid myself, I feel like their ideas about how easy it would be to rationally reason a very young child who doesn't feel like going to school into going are pretty naïve. Also, the idea that if you have a kid who doesn't want to go to school for whatever reason, the answer is just to get them an in-home tutor is also not a great take. I am neurodiverse. I was bright and a "good student", but going to school was often unpleasant for me, and I would stay home as often as I could get away with it. Still, raising me in a bubble where I never ever had to do anything that made me uncomfortable would have ultimately harmed me more than sending me to school did. Even in a world where money were no object and my parents could have afforded private tutoring for me (which they absolutely could not have done, also neither of my parents were in a position to homeschool me as both worked full time), if I had been *that* heavily sheltered, I would have grown up with incredibly stunted emotional and social skills because I'd never been placed in an environment where I had to learn social skills, emotional self-regulation, and basic coping skills.

[@unknownuser41190]

Omg his chat has some the most incorrect, dogshit takes on the internet, next to Demon Mamma. I literally seen someone in chat say your personality is developed by the time you're 9 MONTHS old. That is extremely fucking wrong. When you're 5, is when your personality is pretty much developed, but your whole personality & memories is solidified by time you're 10.

[@Lotan_]

Most people I know didn't have a real personality until they hit 18. Myself included.

[@ains2904]

It should be illegal to cripple your kids, starve your kids, malnourish your kids, take out loans in your kids' name or keep your kids out of school.

[@Bofore13]

Your commentary was about 1000× more valuable than anything in the debate itself.

[@Kloxbyn]

Hans was pretty reserved in this debate and tried to stay on point. DemonMama sounded spiteful at times and definitely used bad faith tactics towards the end. If this debate was pointless, it wasn't from lack of trying on Hans' part.

[@vyxxer]

The annoying thing is that they mostly agree but argue over the most wild hypothetical and not actually have a discussion on what needs to or should be done.

[@hugo3627]

She is actually the one who started the "feral superchild thing" then denies it later. She is the one who is bad faith in this convo.

[@blitz8425]

Demonmama being spiteful and bad faith? Say it ain't so.

[@grantgoldstein5422]

The main issue I have with this convo is that it’s clear that neither DM or the other guy know anything about the education system, let alone why kids wouldn’t go to school. As someone who works in education, the main reason why kids don’t go to school is because the parents are okay with it, especially at the younger ages. Kids not liking school will always happen, but if their parents don’t value education, then they won’t convince/coerce their kids to do just that. It’s the parents responsibility, and their convo keeps on devolving into some super freak who can run out of windows instead of “well, what if the parent says that you don’t need to go to school”. Parents who don’t value education may be due to either socioeconomic reasons (ex: they’d rather have their kid with them working at their store/restaurant instead of hiring someone) or political/religious reasons (ex: you think schools teach the devil stuff or the “globo-homo”/“whites are bad” agenda).

[@moonlightrouge3956]

I think an issue with argument is that you're simultaneously making the argument that school is something that almost all kids would want to go to, but also that school is such a bad place people don't want to be there

[@strongbone9471]

Free lunches is enough to get kids to go to school? We can't be serious right?

[@BillRevis]

Even if it was (it's definitely not), kids would just get their lunch and then leave.

[@mielipuolisiili7240]

"Yeah well, I DIDN'T MEAN TO DROP IN HERE", Demonmama said calmly.

[@edmaldonado8207]

I was one of those kids who threw a tantrum on my first day of school. I got over it after a day. I don't think DM interacts with children.

[@julianbell9161]

The problem with making school money mandatory is what kid would ever choose to go to school? I think we should work on just making school better

[@50043211]

Comming from a country with mandatory schooling and with close to zero% of the here born population being illiterate, we do have a lot of immigrats who are comming from countries were the parents could not go to school or not long enough and are super happy that their children can go to school for free, hearing arguments against mandatory school attendance is more then weird. Of course every system can be improved and I would be more then happy if we would adept the Nordic system due to all its proven positive effects on children, parents and society.

[@CPSPD]

^ but youre a pdf file, so opinion invalid. and no im not referring to the last two thirds of your name.

[@sionnaich8340]

@Conservative Loli Waifu this literally makes no sense in context lol

[@jordc448]

My biggest fear with non-mandatory school is parents deciding their kids "dont need" school. Some parents treat their kids like caregivers for their other kids, and would immediately jump at the chance of having them home to work full time.

[@finghinmccarthy5021]

maybe im biasecd as a student teacher, but a quality education ought to be mandatory

[@buckobucko3938]

I am a leftist and I don’t know why anybody take demon mama seriously. They seem to be very emotional in debates to the point that their reason fails.

[@snowy-g9p]

demonmama be like "but what if but what if but what if" "I mean seriously what can possibly do as adult when a child says no!!"

[@0_0-nerd]

Bottom line being parent also means having a back bone, doing shit that the kid doesn’t like, and understanding the when in time they’ll understand and be grateful. I have autism, I was primarily raised by my siblings, and I know myself I’m grateful for them being tough on me.

[@LewisBDO]

What does DMM have against institutions? first of the "diagnose your own mental problems without doctors" and now this?

[@xSixthiSx]

"There's a ton of things you can do to incentivize kids to go to school." Okay DM, name 1 thing that keeps kids in class and allows them to ingest a curriculum.

[@alesalazar1175]

The whole debate she only mentioned video game learning and free lunches. Like that'll do the trick lol

[@JohnDoe-xv9du]

I would at least consider payment as a policy, but that would only keep me in half the time.

[@Takticals]

The whole premise of this debate is ridiculous,there are a lot of mandatory things in society,learn to deal with them

[@MetalxLicaxPP]

Exactly. I hate mandatory kiss dad day, but I've learnt to deal with it and that's okay.

[@ashfox7498]

SERIOUSLY, Demonmama is basically giving us someone so riddled with stress and anxiety that they belong in a padded cell, and saying the best way to handle that is to never make any kid have to go to school if they don't want to.

[@ms6534]

DM has some very unfortunate rhetorical habits that make her insufferable in debate situations. And one of those habits is to take a conversational situation and twist it into a debate setting. DM is one of the least effective communicators in the space.

[@TrueGamer22887]

And if she’s debating someone she knows and it gets heated after she came in antagonistic, she holds her friendship over them lmao. Literally has done this multiple times it’s so manipulative

[@beowyfe]

The unstoppable debate tactic; say you like dinosaurs and shit your pants

[@blitz8425]

Idk how you can say hanz's performativity came off as malicious, but not say the same for DM. that's literally her MO.

[@vontrances4667]

Demon mama is seriously the least likeable person on the left and that's a really high bar. I agree with her on like everything but she argues her points in the most smug self-important way imaginable and it makes me want to distance myself as much as possible. Edit: also to be clear I'm not against mandatory school when I said I agree with most of her positions that wasn't one of them

[@operatoremma4843]

Does anyone even remember the state of being before they learned how to read and write? It's like trying to remember what life was like before you were born.

[@topwomble]

This was super frustrating to watch because although Hans is right on nearly everything he isn't that rhetorically effective. I actually quite like Demonmama but she had nothing of substance to offer here

[@frostbite3318]

How do you like her?! She is never not entitled and bratty. She has the right to be condescending and talk over people but how DARE anyone do the same to her

[@alfredoleiva5522]

This is the problem with debate bros.

[@minhocho5487]

@Glockjaw I'll be 100% honest I just can't see why people like her based on the overwhelming amount of bad arguments she presents.

[@prometheus3498]

Question, what do you mean he wasnt rhetorically effective. If you mean, there were some times he raised his voice, so did Demon Mama (and so does Vaush/Destiny). Like, can you provide specifics.

[@edmaldonado8207]

Why do you like her? Legit question.

[@Siberius-]

Even if school was Disneyland, kids still wouldn't wanna go every damn day. Oh, hold on, with the armwrestling part at about an hour and 25 minutes. It's not about needing to drink more milk. It's about body positioning. It takes hardly any pressure to snap your arm if you're in an unsafe position. There's a whole sport of actual real professional armwrestling that exists, and it's pretty awesome. I'd advise people to actually learn how to properly armwrestle, before doing it, lest you probably snap your arm at some point, since people naturally tend to twist their body away from their arm when they redline it, and that's when your arm easily snaps (among some other problematic positions, like not staying with your arm as it's being pinned. You're supposed to utilise your body, for safety and more power, etc.). Also if you know how to armwrestle, it's really fucked up to snap someone else's arm, due to them not knowing how to protect themselves. There's a responsibility that comes with it, which means you shouldn't start destroying everyone at a pub or whatever (even if it's fun to dunk on bigger generally stronger guys). Keep it to the armwrestling clubs.

[@sugarsaltspice]

Have any of ya'll seen that documentary on KZbin about the girl's and boy's who are left into a house to live without parental supervision for a week?!? Without rules it was anarchy in those houses.

[@claudis.4015]

I haven't, but am I somewhat close by picturing a reanactment of "Lord of the flies"?

[@videogamenostalgia]

DemonMama has some solid views but she comes across so insufferable in her debates. Just an incredibly unpleasant way to talk to anyone. Debates are fundamentally exercises of persuasion; these kinds of thing are important.

[@DieNibelungenliad]

Yes. I agree with other progressives most of the time, but i moat certainly prefer hanging with more conservative or apolitical people

[@B-C-D]

Watched the debate DM was genuinely insufferable. She spoke over Hanz constantly and honestly has some really horrendous opinions.

[@HanzOfHarkir]

Someone did a timer and she spoke for 22 out of the 32 minutes. anyone who said I talked over her too much or was too mean/aggressive is overdosing on copium. DM and her stans are incapable of taking Ls.

[@bibbyboi]

She still wouldn't answer the question about intervening here lol.

[@noahramsey]

2 debate reviews in a row? with mario sunshine? dreams do come true

[@hemmydall]

Why does anyone bother trying to debate or discuss with DemomMama? Bad takes, bad arguments, generally out there views... waste of time.

[@bayazwow]

When someone is clearly arguing in bad faith it just feels like such a waste of time, really frustrating debate.

[@bloodghoul]

Even as someone who hated school I think it’s still important for there to be a level of schooling that’s mandatory. Maybe my school experience wouldn’t have been so bad if our school system had been improved?

[@joesecord3066]

Yeah, I think people put the negative experience they had with school on it being mandatory and not the shitty education system.

[@kevinjohnanand]

I wish people wouldn't "both sides" this.

[@italucenaz]

but none of the sides are 100% correct, "both sides" is only objectionable when ont of the sides is unequivocally correct and the other incorrect, Hans was an asshole there, doesn't matter if he as technically more correct in the arguments

[@kevinjohnanand]

@@italucenaz How was he an asshole? DM talked twice as much as him and screamed a whole lot more.

[@italucenaz]

@@kevinjohnanand luckily you didn't see him after the debate on twitter, he was inssuferable

[@kevinjohnanand]

@@italucenaz what did he say I. Twitter that was so bad?

[@TrueGamer22887]

@@kevinjohnanand nothing. He just brought up about how demon mama was super weird and manipulative with the “THIS IS A STRIKE ON OUR FRIENDSHIP” at the end and then shared the video showing she talked literally twice as much as him even though she cried about constantly being interrupted (like every debate) she’s a non ironic cry bully and people that play defense for her are no different

[@bluchicken_995]

Holy shit I hope she never becomes a parent she gets her understanding of how kids should be treated from Disney jr

[@datoxx7977]

Saying that Hans was the one derailing/hurting the convo is straight up insane

[@thesensiblesocialist]

Came here to see Vaush go soft on DM. Wasn't disappointed.

[@raoulduke2924]

Here's what I think I can add to all of this: School not only provides educational and social needs to a child, it also provides a structure to their day to day lives that is also essential for a healthy psyche. All people function better within routines. These don't necessarily have to be routines provided to us by the State but for children of impoverished or neglectful parents that might be the only structure in their day that they get. I also didn't hear any talk of how if school were made voluntary it would likely only be the children of the impoverished and neglectful that stop going to school entirely. Rich parents more often than not would either have the resources to provide a separate structure (ie actual homeschooling with tutors or they have the income for only a single parent to be working) or they have the stability and sense to understand what they will need their child to be to a mentally stable adult and thus force them into an educational and social environment. I would argue that voluntary schooling would widen the inequality gap even further, hurting only those who already need more help than usual.

[@darkmetal2412]

Slightly unrelated but who else gets excited when the P.E. teacher is like screw push ups let's just play dodgeball for the whole period lol The sports are the only fun thing about P.E. everything else I find so boring

[@jesswilson5266]

I had shit attendance in secondary, I had attendance meetings every week because it got so low. My Mum tried her hardest and we'd fight over it every morning some times I win and sometimes she would win and get me in, sometimes I got to the school then left or skipped lessons. If it wasn't for the fines or the worry of the school taking my Mum to court I would of went even less then I already did. Life would be so much harder because then I wouldn't of had the qualifications that I got now (I was very lucky and passed all my exams despite my 25% attendance) if I hadn't of felt guilty about the school being on my Mum's back. School was shit. School system needs changed drastically but everyone need's an education

[@teamjacob2388]

Bro as a Southerner, I'm horrified at the idea of the majority of southerners homeschooling their children. Like 12 ppl would learn about what slavery was