Deck Building Philosophy w/ andyr

[@josephgerman2674]

I totally agree about multiplayer. When I do deck testing, I always play two-handed solo. So many of the Hero Ratings are strictly for solo. My Spider Man Protection deck is amazing for the team. He can almost always defend or block for two heroes. That frees up other players to do more, and we worry less about threat because no one needs to flip as often. No one is calculating the value of how much thwart is equal to just staying in hero form. It's weird to say, but Protection ==> Protects heroes ==> Keeps them in hero form ==> Prevents villain scheming ==> Reduces threat... Plus it gives the other heroes extra actions, because they don't need to recover. This is why Protection and Aggression pair so well --you don't need as much Justice.

[@DaringLime]

Everything you said makes sense to me. I do actually think about how much that’s worth. The way I see it flipping down gets you an extra card and a new ability that is also worth about a card. You have to recover, so you lose out on a basic thwart. So it comes out to saving the difference between a scheme activation which is about 4-5 threat, compared to losing out on a basic activation but getting about 2 cards. Having a protection hero around in multiplayer is useful. Spider-Ham seems especially good with his cartoon physics. I do think there is a trap though where everyone stays in hero form to stop the villain from scheming. In my opinion, in 3-4 player games it is usually optimal for 1 player to be in alter ego each turn. Many heroes get crazy amounts of value from doing that. Thanks for the comment :)

[@josephgerman2674]

@@DaringLime Great breakdown. I love that you really analyze the value of Hero vs Alter Ego. Some heroes AE is worth more. Early on, I really did not like She Hulk, and now she's one of my favorites in Justice, flipping every round.

[@DaringLime]

@ that’s interesting. I do think she hulk is strongest when flipping. And I like flipping, but she still hasn’t clicked with me. It’s a bit sad for me because I want to like her lol

[@josephgerman2674]

@@DaringLime I did do some Home Rules with her to make her more fun for the gaming table. 1. Gamma Slam is an upgrade placed out on setup (still costs 4). Then if you use it, it goes out of play (like Valkyrie's Death Glow). 2 Legal Practice --if you discard all 5 cards to max it out, you replace Gamma Slam. Makes both of those cards way more fun, and makes She Hulk more fun.

[@DaringLime]

@@josephgerman2674 That does sound like a lot of fun! That's really creative :)

[@DMTip]

Wow, finally got through this beast of a video. Great discussion all around. Very entertaining as well! I loved that you both shared your favorite decks and discussed how they could be tweaked/improved.

[@DaringLime]

@@DMTip I wasn’t expecting c it to be so long we just kept having more to talk about lol. I’m glad you liked that section. We didn’t have it planned to talk about it in that format until until we were recording.

[@JohnCollinsIsAWizard]

"finding your voice as a deckbuilder" is a very philosophical way of looking at it.

[@DaringLime]

@@JohnCollinsIsAWizard indeed

[@MCDeckDiscussions-n5n]

Yes, I never thought about that way previously even though I recognize that my style is different than what I typically see shown from all the other content creators.

[@DaringLime]

@ I think it’s really cool that everyone builds decks a bit differently.

[@shanepheeney9029]

1st off: gotta say (even though only half way through so far), Great chatting & discussion guys. Love it! Yay, I think I fixed my issue with internet & malfunctioning speakers (been offline lately)...1st up viewing, this 🤩 As a mostly multiplayer (typically using 'at least 1' of Std2/Exp2) but still get in those Solo games. I like playing the MPer games more - gets some social time with my friends too. I'm mostly a MCDB storage unit for my decks. Seldom go view (sometimes if personal health is low, and not up to anything else) others' decks. Rare comment - I think I may be a little blunt sometimes - though I believe sometimes it was warranted. If you use a "MP" tag with a Leadership deck with no Team constraints nor theme etc and don't have Maria Hill in it and you have specifically excluded using a 'sideboard' for her...sorry, remove the tag or redo the deck imo! I do need to also reinforce that there is much more control of the tight situation in solo vs multiplayer, but multiplayer has more room to absorb the greater (escalating per per player) chaos being thrown at you. Most SS have less scheme points and thus much more reliable to clear in solo etc (not all players 'deck design' & 'deck pilot' at same levels). In Solo, you can play a PSS and tell yourself, clear it immediately, but in the higher counts, you often can't rely on that getting cleared. So, both design & play has to be different. Love me some 'Venom' in Star-Lord! My quote(to friend who played my deck): "Venom should never survive to generate a 2nd Enc card!". Activate...innate as much as possible until 2 HP left (3 uses = perfect to align with Helmet max too?)...activate...block! Love the comparisons in Jubz/MsMarvel...low stats & 'resource'??? Yeah - Overwatch / PP ally...gotta observe those "game terms" LOL "Resource theory"...I'll have to catch that later, but look forward to it...gotta go for now...but 1st thoughts are "output return for (ER) investment" and yeah 'Reliable Doubles' can somewhat skew that too.

[@DaringLime]

I'm glad you're back online! I like reading your comments. You point out some important distinctions between solo and multiplayer. They are VERY different. Especially side schemes-both villain and player-get much more difficult in multiplayer. The benefit of player side schemes increases in multiplayer, but often I don't find it makes up for the additional resources required to thwart it. Maybe when I post the final version of my Adam Warlock deck I'm working on you'll get to see it on MCDB :) It's great to hear that you're feeling better, and I hope your good health continues!

[@timothymedric2222]

It looks weirdly similar to another channels video. 😂 You do great work.

[@DaringLime]

Thank you!

[@krittapastt.95]

Please know that I pay more attention to your deckbuilding videos than some of my classes in college. LOL 😂

[@DaringLime]

@@krittapastt.95 that makes me feel good lol. I also sometimes pay more attention to videos than school lol

[@MCDeckDiscussions-n5n]

What a great discussion! I've been watching this here and there over a few days, and I'm about an hour 40 in, but I wanted to mention I relate to your deck building journey quite a bit, though I only just started my own channel. For a couple of years, I only used MarvelCDB to save my own decks, and I still don't go on there to use others' decks. I have used other content creators' builds as inspiration for my own here and there to stretch myself into new possibilities, and I only started publishing my decks publicly again recently when I tried to create some beginner decks for a 4-pack challenge I took on, which I noticed that andyr mentioned!

[@DaringLime]

Thanks for the comment. I’m glad you’re enjoying the decision. It’s a long one! I’m glad I’m not the only one that feels that way about MarvelCDB. I think that not using it was integral to learning how to deck build for me. I’ll go check out your channel!

[@MCDeckDiscussions-n5n]

@@DaringLime Yes, I think the same is true for me when learning to build decks. And thanks!

[@MCDeckDiscussions-n5n]

@@DaringLime I think some people prefer to learn by first mimicking others, while others want enjoy the creative process more and want to do it on their own from the very beginning. As a math teacher, I find the same to be true of my math students. Most want to just follow what someone else is doing, while a small percentage want to think through the problems on their own and figure them out themselves.

[@DaringLime]

@ no problem!

[@DaringLime]

@ that’s really cool that you’re a math teacher. I love math. I got my undergrad in physics and I’m in grad school now doing research on batteries.

[@LiveLongAndProsperHonestly]

Ally cards are definitely the most overpowered just by the sheer value you get from them.

[@DaringLime]

I think that's true. The ability to thwart, attack, and block solves all of the core struggles in the game.

[@shanepheeney9029]

I have very similar Cyclops to Lime...I had 'Not my Responsibility'. It's like another get 'Get Rage-y' in that the ally can often block a scheme activation or even an 'Auto-Step1-with accelerate/s'

[@DaringLime]

@@shanepheeney9029 I’m Glad you came up with a similar idea. That is one of my favorite decks I’ve made.

[@Fckrsns]

Dum Dum Dugan is great with Field Agents. Field Agents are underrated in my opinion. You get more activations for Agent 13, Quake (ATK2), Agent Coulson (THW2). Dum Dum Dugan turns into an ultimate finisher with 6 damage every turn for 0 or 1 consequential damage. Also, Government Liaison doesn't have Max 1 per player limit, so you can have all 3 of them on the table (2 is enough though) and use them to spawn Field Agents and other cards. These and Surveillance Teams became main sources of Sky-Destroyer triggers and fuel for Dum Dum Dugan and Homeland Intervention for me.

[@DaringLime]

@@Fckrsns that makes sense to me. I like all of the combos you mentioned. Next time I play SHIELD I’ll give Field Agent another shot! I think the thing that bothered me about Field Agent when I tried it is that I often use my allies to block and it feels low tempo. I don’t like to block with agent 13 though. Readying up helicarrier is just so powerful that she is better to keep around than block with. Dum Dim Dugan I think would be really fun to keep around like you were saying and swing for huge amounts of damage multiple times. Another thing though is that when I was playing SHIELD last times, I was in solo. It seems like in higher player counts it would be a lot more valuable, especially with a protection player. I’ll give it another shot and let you know how it goes! :)

[@Fckrsns]

@@DaringLime I've played SHIELD in 2-handed solo with another hero in protection, so my experience might be biased :)

[@DaringLime]

@ I think shield agent is viable in solo for sure! And I’m also biased lol. Everyone is biased toward their own experience. That’s funny that you played it in 2 handed with a protection player. Smart move :)

[@shanepheeney9029]

Shadows of the Past...sure can be "great" to see sometimes. Especially if your 'Spider-Woman'...sure Villain, have some crud!

[@DaringLime]

@@shanepheeney9029 thanks for giving me a bit of sanity lol

[@josephgerman2674]

Adam Warlock: Opening Hand ==> Quantum Magic and trash. Hard Mulligan ==> Quantum Magic and trash. Next hand ==> Summoning Spell discards 5 upgrades... His deck NEVER works. QM needs to be an upgrade, not an event. I've won games with Adam. I've never had a single fun game with Adam, because he absolutely handicaps himself every game. Now I don't play any of his discard powers until he gets his upgrades out. Takes forever. He's a much slower build than even Iron Man. Such a hot mess. After I played Bishop, he actually worked fine, and I really thought he was an apology for Adam.

[@DaringLime]

I'm sorry you've had a bad experience with him. I really like him though and have found him to be pretty strong. I have a series on my channel defeating the entire mad titan's shadow campaign in solo on expert mode without losing a single game or being in trouble for the whole campaign. I built my deck to mitigate the problems you are mentioning. I hope it helps! And if not, that's okay. Not everyone has to like every hero.

[@josephgerman2674]

@@DaringLime Well, I have friends who love Adam, but hate his deck, so I did another round of house-rules. 1. Quantum Magic is a discardable upgrade. That's fixed. 2. I added to the staff: Alter Ego Action: discard a basic aspect card to place 1 card from the discard pile on top of your deck. This is like the way Battle Mage works, but you have to flip. It's super helpful, but not as good as Quantum Magic. 3. (We don't always play with 3) I added to Warlock's Cape: If you discard more than 3 cards from playing an event, shuffle one of those cards back into your deck. These just give you more chances to get some control over the discard pile ==> Adam no longer randomly handicaps himself by discarding an important upgrade. Instead, he randomly slows himself down, but is able to recover. 4. (everyone loves this) Cosmic Entities cost 1 per player, and activate once per player. This is way more thematic. Some people think this makes him OP, but I don't mind him being like another Dr Strange. Also, I make his deck 50 cards to mitigate some of this.

[@DaringLime]

@@josephgerman2674 I do like 50 card adam warlock decks. It's really fun! With the deck I built for him recently I made sure to include 5 cards from each aspect because I never want to have a turn where I can't trigger battle mage. I like that you make house rules to make the game more fun! I think that is a big advantage that board games have over video games.