Decline Of The Western Church

[@marylamb6063]

I asked my grandfather why his church was packed with people between the 1930s and 1980s, and why this won't happen anymore. 1. Most people were of the same economic class. 2. 80% of residents worked in two factories that paid workers well, so moving to the impersonal big city was not necessary. 3. Everyone knew each other. They lived together, worked together, and went to church together. Today church members don't know each other because they live in different neighborhoods. 4. Sermons were 10 minutes. The rest of the time was spent on figuring out who needed help in getting back on their feet. 5. The pastor didn't have a fancy salary and retirement/vacation packages. He supplemented his income by fixing cars. Hence no disconnect. 6. There was a sense of "we are in this together." In today's churches people are disconnected. Church is not about serving it's about doctrine that is never practiced. We don't know each other. Most churches don't care about their neighborhood and don't care about those who have fallen through the cracks. In my grandad's time, church was love in action.

[@plainspokenpod]

Worthy reflections. I think you're right to say that there are a lot of demographic factors that aren't working for healthy local churches anymore. And, in case you haven't watched much of my stuff or know what I'm about, I'm definitely against the big pastoral salaries. I'm not sure I'm with you about the serving. The reality of the early 20th century was that there were many women who didn't have to work and were able to volunteer a lot of their time to the church. The reality today is that churches give tons of money and effort to helping the needy. However, facilitating change in people's lives is harder today than it has ever been for various reasons. Our charitable ministries just aren't very effective. It isn't because we don't care or try. I preach longer sermons because I think the doctrinal ignorance of the 20th century directly led to the demise of the church. I'm of the mind that we need to know what we believe and be united in that belief in order for our work to even mean anything to those who do it.

[@hunker1982]

The answer is joy. I have not learned about sactification, how to live a holy life, supported by small group Christian accountability. I have been a nice, empty, lukewarm vessel.

[@Keycity60]

There are a lot of things that could be said about this topic. Around minute 23 the author mentioned that going to church provided one with a fairly loose affiliation with others who are somewhat like minded and they gather together for practical life advice and a positive emotional experience. I watch at least a half dozen Church services of all stripes every week to see what people are getting. In most, a text is read and then a life application, that is very loosely tied to the text, is presented. There is no attempt to provide in depth understanding of what is presented in the Bible. The last couple of weeks in these sermons I have been admonished to: Take a walk in the woods Watch a sunset Listen to a Bach concerto I have heard a poem written by a native American woman I have been told to be my own soulmate I could go on but you get the picture. Now, some people might say that this is exactly what they are looking for. For me this is thin gruel that leaves the Church body starving spiritually. Why people would show up regularly for this is puzzling to me. Fortunately there are other reasons to go to church. Serving others, worship, and fellowship would be a few, but clergy in the pulpit sets the tone with how deep they dig into the scripture

[@RGabeDavis]

I find growing Christian groups are unapologetic, authentic, and uncompromising. Shrinking communities are wishy washy, frightened, and desirous of approval. John Wesley would thrive now!

[@HoopsMacabre]

Here’s the most logical explanation as to why the church has lost attendance, from an outsider’s perspective: The church teaches bigotry and toxicity and us young people don’t want to be associated with it.

[@plainspokenpod]

Hahahaha!

[@HoopsMacabre]

@@plainspokenpodLaugh all you want. Only proves my point that you simply don’t care. Aaaaand we won’t either. Nothing changes. Have fun with your empty pews.

[@richardsimms251]

Wow That is right on. That is extremely accurate.

[@lorraineculp1504]

Our church now is expecting more from us, and we are stepping up to that responsibility. I have needed this for a long time. Coming through the other side of disaffiliation has us ready to step up and work for God's kingdom. Our country is in the worst condition it has ever been. The only way to turn the tide on this widespread evil is to stand for God's word, to speak out against evil. This is a far better use of my time than playing games on my phone. Our Lord has set that bar high, and the local churches should never drop that bar to appease lazy, lukewarm Christians.

[@Kneißle]

Conservative Anabaptists are really growing; Mennonites, Amish, Hutterites, etc. Amish population doubles every 20 years. Generally, the more conservative the group, the higher the growth rate.

[@michelehart8535]

Our small rural church has offered community outreach with free dinners, after school day care, music festivals, great attendance with no avail, no growth to Sunday services.

[@robertkersten3971]

This podcast was another confirmation of what I’ve come to believe for some time now; the institutional church will not survive in its current structure. I have a book written back in 2015 entitled Church Refugees, authored by Christian Sociologists, Josh Packard and Ashleigh Hope. They reveal in this book why the “Dones” left the organized church, with information gathered by interviews with hundreds of folks who left the institutional church in order to grow in their relationship with Christ. Their study correlates well with this article by Jake Meador. Their solution on how to deal with this issue reads a lot like the classes and bands of Methodism. Committed believers are looking for something that is sadly missing in most churches, regardless of denominational affiliation, a genuine community of faith like that found in Acts.

[@HoopsMacabre]

You know the church is screwed when they stop trying to gain new members and are struggling to retain old members. Maybe the church should not be associated with bigots and other toxic individuals?

[@rachelanne268]

I cannot find a "born again" church in my area. It's so frustrating... cultural churches, entertainment based, consumer driven ... its unbelievably difficult.

[@plainspokenpod]

You know, it really is increasingly hard to find a community that is sober-minded about this stuff. It is worth the effort to find one, though. God bless your search.

[@annettedelaughter2769]

Have been keeping an eye on trends since I left the Church structure. I was in the 70's youth movement. Had a little experience of Church in my teens in a Baptist Church. During my Military experience I was attracted to the folk music in the Catholic Church, then the Episcopal. Then the Faith Movement came along, and was very effective, until they got into the extreme Prosperity teachings, so I moved on to the Messianic Revival of Jewish believers that few knew about and learned a lot about the Old Testament that many Protestant did not teach, and lost out on. Now, I am dependent on On-Line Ministeries! Have witnessed many miracles! The blind see! Limbs growing out! Own personal healings! The Spirit of God moving in the meetings like a mighty wind; Have seen Angels! Got spoiled because of all these manifestations (1972-80), and now, few manifestations publicaly but privately YES! The Baptist Church I visited, the Pastor discerned I was a Charismatic type, and the Pastor DISCERNED that, and distanced me. They think that "tongue" talkers are demonized! When the Charismatics find out I have been diagnosed Bi-Polar (PTSD), they say you can't be a Christian and have a mental illness, or I am demonized, so I am considering the Methodist (NOT United Methodist!), because I heard John Wesley spoke in tongues and the early Wesliand did once. The power Gifts are real, but those who had such wonderful experiences, have gotten into power addictions.

[@michelehart8535]

Could you explain the names on methodist churches? Free, first, Trinity, Wesleyan, United, global and so on

[@ChuckDebWood]

Completely agree, I left the consumer model 13 years ago and haven't looked back. Now shepherding a network of small churches meeting in homes and public places as the church in the harvest as Jesus and His followers did. We place high value on imitating Jesus as His disciples. The churches are small, have non-Christians joining them that hear the gospel every time they attend, but focus on getting to Jesus for who He really is in Scriptures. We have high accountability attached to two guiding principles, following Jesus and fishing for men. We won't make the headlines but we are striving toward healthy church and by the Lord's grace, we're getting there. Thanks for sharing, its good to know we have a fellow soldier in the battle. All for Jesus! Chuck

[@jonathansmith336]

I think that the appeal of secular socialism is a cry of the young for genuine community and meaning.

[@plainspokenpod]

For real. The fatal problem they have is that there's really no such thing as true relationship outside of Christ as mediator.

[@xXEGPXx]

People just do not like your bigotry, that is the entirety of this mystery solved. You say gay people are bad and are going to hell, most people disagree with you, so most people will leave. Its a complete nonstarter

[@richardsimms251]

You are very correct in my opinion.

[@obliograce3551]

I would like to hear a talk on the book “Methodists and the Making Of America” by Charles W. Ferguson. This book was given to me when I was contemplating ministry in the Methodist Church. It gave me a great perspective on how the Methodist Church came to be. My family has a strong background in the Methodist church. My maternal grandfather was a Methodist missionary in Indonesia when my mother and several of her siblings were born. Methodists and the Making Of America showed me how Wesley began large outdoor meetings and that in many of these meetings hundreds of people would fall down, struck by the Holy Spirit, much as happens with some Pentecostals today. This makes perfect sense as in the 1890s the Methodist church experienced a schism, where the Pentecostal church came out of the Methodist church (and possibly the Holiness Church?) Since then, while Methodists are very good people, they have focused only on the “methods” established by Wesley, which is good, but many have lost touch with the Holy Spirit, the flame that is represented in the Methodist Church logo. Said not to demean but to awaken, people in the Methodist Churches I have been a part of don't often fall down, slain the the Spirit. They may fall asleep, but they do not otherwise fall down. Too often a church body will ask, what’s wrong and how can we reinvent ourselves to remain relevant? The answer is not Star Wars. My favorite Bible teacher is J. Vernon McGee. His talks are amazingly folksy, simple, yet powerful and true. The answer is to study scripture in a way to make it come alive in the minds and hearts of everyone as Jesus intended. Remember, Jesus taught His disciples in parables, as they passed through the cloud, so that the hearer would mature into the meaning of what He was teaching them. Too many churches today, and this applies to the Methodist church in particular, have focused only on their already established tried and true processes, forgetting how to actively apply the lessons of God, Jesus Christ, and yes, the Holy Spirit, to our daily lives for our lives to grow, evolve, and have meaning. Praise God!

[@jackcarraway4707]

"God is dead. God remains dead and we have killed him. How will we comfort ourselves, the murderers of all murderers?" -Nietzsche

[@carp614]

"Contend" This is what has been missing. Evil uses every little moment wherein we don't contend for the faith as we should.

[@shanefrederick7731]

Saw the title and immediately clicked play

[@christianilovegod]

This video was recommended to me from youtube, question what is your take on women Pastors?

[@jonathansmith336]

You should check out the Charismatic Episcopal Church merging the evangelical, liturgical, and Charismatic streams.

[@fredduncan50]

Amen! What a great sermon!

[@johncovington4109]

Spend some time studying the Church of the Highlands in Alabama. Especially what they are doing with youth and college aged adults.

[@whiterosesforthebrideofchrist]

The Apostle Paul pronounced a curse on most churches today because the main Christian denominations of today preach a different gospel than what Paul preached. To quote exactly what Paul said, “But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.” (Galatians 1:8). Both apostle Paul and Peter preached the same gospel and quote from the prophet Joel (2:32) saying, "For whosoever shall call upon the name of Yahweh shall be saved." (Romans 10:13 and Acts 2:21). The English translations say “Lord” instead of “Yahweh.” But “Lord” does not translate “Yahweh” it is a substitution of a totally different word altogether. This substitution activates two additional curses because if you substitute a word you are both adding and subtracting at the same time. “For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.” (Revelation 22:18, 19) We are commanded by Messiah that, “...repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.” (Luke 24:47). In other words, we are supposed to preach the gospel that came out of Jerusalem and not preach the gospel that came out of Antioch, or Rome, or England, or New York, or Chicago, etc. By the time the gospel got to Antioch it had already been perverted as we read, “...And the disciples were called Christians first in Antioch.” (Acts 11:26). The problem with this is that Yahweh spoke of a people called by His name (Deuteronomy 28:10; 2 Chronicles 7:14; Isaiah 43:6, 7; Daniel 9:19; Amos 9:12; Acts 15:17). Yahweh did not choose the name “Christian” for Himself. The people of Antioch chose that name and all the so called main denominations of today embrace that name “Christian” for themselves. When Peter and Paul preached the gospel they quote the prophet Joel, “Whosoever shall call on the name of Yahweh shall be saved.” (Joel 2:32; Acts 2:21; Rom. 10:13). The English word "Lord" is not a translation for the name Yahweh but is a substitution. I ask you, how many of the church fathers and so called main denominations of today preach that gospel? None of them. Absolutely none! “Blessed are those servants, whom the Lord when He comes shall find watching: verily I say unto you, that he shall gird himself, and make them to sit down to meat, and will come forth and serve them.” Some people say that they are watching all the time but they overlook verse 38. “And if he shall come in the second watch, or come in the third watch, and find them so, blessed are those servants.” (Luke 12:37-38). Under normal circumstances people are sound asleep during the second and third watch. Therefore Luke 12 is not talking about watching in a figurative way. The LORD is talking of a literal watch. There are appointed times in the scriptures for us to fulfill a literal watch. In fact, all of the appointed times of holy convocations (moedim) listed in Leviticus 23 are watches and vigils of Yahweh. Each one of them are fulfilled by both an Old Testament and corresponding New Testament historical event. In other words they will be assembled together in a holy convocation and not out and about driving cars and flying airplanes. Like the 120 were assembled in the upper room Acts chapter 2 for the Feast of Weeks (Pentecost). Unfortunately, because of a man-made ecclesiastical calendar many will not be watching at the appointed time when He comes.

[@Vss7788]

I grew up in the UMC by force. I didn't want to go, but my mother made me, and her reasoning was it was "Her church" and it was where she wanted to go. I would probably have a very different life had I gone to one of the churches with kids at it. There were 3 kids at my mom's UMC, and I BEGGED her to bring me somewhere else I actually wanted to go. Now as a mother I consider going to a church soly for my son, one with kids so he can be around other moralistic kids. I wish my mother had felt that way for me, I probably wouldn't be a single mother now.

[@russ254]

that’s hilarious. keep your legs together.

[@gregb6469]

Yes, both Reform-minded churches and Pentecostal churches are growing, but for very different reasons. The former are serious about doctrine and serious Bible study; the latter avoid both in favor of emotionalism.

[@plainspokenpod]

Agree 100%. They are scratching different itches. There isn't much overlap at all...

[@steveturner8131]

Amen and amen, great synopsis of the current state of the Western church and how it differiantes from the Biblical worldview of the church and its purpose in this world.

[@glendagaskin151]

We are told to go into all the world and preach the gospel. That’s the instruction Jesus gave. He is the only way and cursed the one who adds to or takes away. The parable of the sower.

[@32212Steve]

There's a clip going around of a pastor calling out his congregation for some of these things. In the short snippet, he uses those that show up late or leave early as part of the problem. I need to hear more of the sermon, but I assume he wasn't just calling "late" people out because he does call out those just using the church as a show. Now, much of the internet was against his point because of unknown reasons that they may be disconnected, including the church leadership as they preached from a seemingly showy stage. But I find it hard to argue that if you are not willing to invest in something, you will not get much out of it. The church is not transactional, but if you only come to hear that Jesus loves you and saved you, but don't stick around long enough to hear that the lukewarm will be spit out, then we arrive at the current decline of western Christianity

[@eileenthrift8259]

I have now learned about "cultural Christians" versus "born again Christians," which reminds me of the parable of the soils. I believe the Holy Spirit is active in true Christians. Therefore, as Jesus said, "Satan cannot snatch them from my hand." Well said sermon. ❤

[@dc8955]

The 800 pound gorilla in the room that you have not mentioned is that people are realizing that religion is mythology and have better things to do. Worshiping an iron age tribal deity just doesnt cut it anymore. You dont have to be religious to live a moral socially responsible life.

[@maxipaw-dc5xj]

Christians can't admit this. You are 100% right.

[@pastorlife1569]

Jeffrey, I thot I might offer to you the Bequines, Tertiaries, and Oblates, which have been a part of church tradition since the middle ages. These are options for lay people to participate in communal living, especially for women. Also, the most obvious is the convent. Nuns are lay people living in a commune. Intentional communities are not a new phenomenon but have been a part of Christianity for the better part of a millennium.

[@plainspokenpod]

I looked into neomonastic communities for a bit in seminary. Would still like to look at it. I think this is the way. Are you Roman Catholic, or do you simply have an appreciation for some of the things they practiced?

[@pastorlife1569]

@@plainspokenpod I’m Nazarene serving in UMC, but I have a deep appreciation for all of Christian tradition. However, I would say my holiness movement roots probably draw me toward these monastic/mystic movements.

[@pastorlife1569]

@@plainspokenpod Also, these movements predate the Roman Catholic Church in the way we know it. By that, I mean long before the Protestant Reformation, which we don’t have the strongest ties to in the Wesleyan/Methodist tradition since we flow from the Church of England.

[@plainspokenpod]

@@pastorlife1569 Right on. I have similar sensibilities. I have some thoughts about eventually creating something serious here that I may share on air sometime. I need to more seriously study what is currently being done, though. If you know of any good resources for research, feel free to send them to me! Or I guess you already did!

[@MethodistPreacher]

The COGIC denomination is growing both here and abroad. I think many miss the growth beyond the mainline Churches (meaning the Black Church).

[@plainspokenpod]

Churches of God in Christ, right? What are their numbers in the US? I don't consider growth abroad as significant in this particular discussion. I mean, it's great, but the conversation is around the formerly Christian West. Also, I note that Churches of God in Christ identifies as Pentecostal.

[@MethodistPreacher]

@@plainspokenpod I know you mentioned it as Pentecostal. But it’s like “Ready to Harvest” and others when they look at Church data seem to overlook the Black Church. I stay in tuned with both Christian sectors. Although you mentioned the Hispanics within the RC Church that sector is also growing in the US Church.

[@plainspokenpod]

@@MethodistPreacher I think it is important, in our thinking and analysis, not to be exclusively focused on Anglo populations. As I'm speaking about this, I'm under the impression that black churches are declining in America at a similar rate. If I'm wrong, please correct me.

[@MethodistPreacher]

@@plainspokenpod I know my denomination, the AME Church is declining too. The AME Zion and CME Churches, which are smaller than we are are likely either stagnating or declining too. Regarding the Black Baptist Churches, I wouldn’t know.

[@lawrencedecosta6473]

The mainstream churches including Catholicism are all plummeting in australia to the tune of 15% or more every 5 years I am a Catholic and I see my kids generation almost desert the church. Some Pentecostals are growing. The no-religion group is now 50% and growing fast.

[@DirtySanchez658]

Woke is our new religion. You cannot stop it.

[@gregb6469]

Star Wars church? How can people be expected to take a church seriously if it doesn't take itself seriously?

[@hornplayer1228]

In the churches they still preach on "the original sin" by which is meant the separation from God, the Fall, in which we all shared. The original sin has been atoned for by Jesus Christ on the cross. NOT ATONED, however, are man's daily sins against divine law and sooner or later reparation has to be made. Yet man can earn divine grace For himself and some of his guilt may be forgiven, but not all are deserving of such grace. Now let us look at the meaning of "mortal sin" - since with so many new listeners here tonight, an explanation may be opportune. By "original sin" was meant that rebellion against God, when all spirits still lived in the celestial realms as one family with God. Then Lucifer coveted the position as King of the Spirit world which God had assigned to Christ Jesus. Multitudes of spirits sided with Lucifer and all these fell from the light of heaven into darkness. The only way back into the Father's Kingdom, was the long trek back through evolution, the many stages of material life on earth. I have not the time now to explain further, I only wanted to explain the meaning of "mortal sin": rebellion against Christ, who was by God's will set up as King of the Spirit world, in favour of Lucifer and his promises. (and not the eating of an apple by Adam and Eve in paradise.) Under Lucifer's power and influence man still labours today. For Lucifer too had to leave the heavenly heights and now rules his empire of darkness - what you call Hell. From there he operates and tempts man. He is the father of the lie and of all meanness. He has the power to influence his followers. He does not want to see true Christian teaching spread, he wants to keep mankind as long as possible under his dominion, chained to his might. And he uses his might to torture and kill those who dared adopt a different faith than what the churches decreed. These are not God's ways and man is put to the test in his earthly life. Far removed from God man shall prove his belief in the Divine. God's messengers bring the truth to mankind from very far away. They need great patience for this task. But a start has been made and it will surely come to pass. Only when the old has finally crumbled will it be possible to rebuild a new Christianity, a new way to God, a way of understanding and compassion and service. And men will no longer be led into wars. Rather will they be called to live in peace, to keep the peace.

[@jameshhenderson8243]

The church in America and the West is dying because they are an inauthentic articulation of the Torah, the Gospel, and the teachings of Yeshua which is “The Way.” Highly seminary educated enlightened response from this poster.

[@jennifercubone2571]

Honestly alot of people i talk.to been judged and hurt by the church threw trauma forced religion and just hypocritical values

[@taswuf1]

This is a very good video and says a lot that needs to be said. American Christianity has largely been reduced to an ideology rather than a life-giving spiritual path. A lot of that has to do with Protestantism's disemphasis contemplation and trivializing of liturgy (partially responsible for the rise of Eastern Orthodoxy ). Much of mainline Protestantism is either insipid or superficially entertainment oriented. You touched on Donald Trump, but did not mention the near idolatrous devotion he commands from the "Evangelical" voting block. This is perhaps a manifestation of the "workism" you are talking about. The man reflects no Christian virtue whatsoever, but pushes a lot of nationalist buttons. Also he reflects a kind of wealth worship, a subject implied by the video. Workism is intimately tied to the predatory Capitalism Trump represents ( eg the slumlord history in his family's climb to wealth). To see what is sacred in a society, look at what cannot be criticized. You can say what you want about God, Jesus and the Church, but try to suggest anything surpasses Capitalism. Christianity does. It justifies some elements of Capitalism, but anathematizes others when the profit motive supercedes human needs. Check out the increasing disaster that is healthcare in the US and the growing housing crisis in our cities. The issue is profit über Alles. The Church must offer a vision where humanity matters --- this has been a failure of Capitalism and Socialism. With AI and robotic automation, "work" will need less human agency and by extension, humans will be less economically viable unless the Church remind us we are in the image of God

[@nancycrayton2738]

God is still speaking. The people who are faithful are still there. And to me, it looks more like the first and second century church... And I'm still praying that God will open the eyes, ears and hearts of people like Jordan Peterson. And Donald Trump. I don't know if they will be reached and take hold. That is for the Holy Spirit. God knows.

[@cincyborn]

I believe Jeffrey is a Star Wars fan too. But Disney films and streaming are on the decline. The Park attractions are still the profit maker, the new toy gets you into the park but nothing brings you back until the next kiddie ride

[@plainspokenpod]

I do, indeed, enjoy Star Wars. For better or worse. But Jesus is far greater! It is an insult to try and mix them.

[@cincyborn]

@@plainspokenpod amen, weird stuff agreed, I don't even get the connection either. It reminds me of the Hale Bopp comet suicides. Like you were saying so many more people are unhappy searching for the next best thing, as quickly as possible, without developing wisdom.

[@bonniekarenmullenholtz1877]

I am an ordained elder in the umc retired. I don't go to church. I have faith. I grow the more bible prophetic videos. Except for 2 churches most church were too inbred. I am mission minded. Most churches would not reach out. My chaplaincy in hospitals and colleges were the most productive for me. But to go back into a church building with an ill trained immature jealous pastor scares me. Turns me off church. I will go back when I have a unique ministry. Probably not ! Umc church.

[@cincyborn]

Jesus is coming back for his church, jealous people are a factor. Hope you come back to some church, because you are the body and you are a part

[@saltylitmatt5134]

The age of the denomination is over. Unity in the Bride is the future. Denominations are a man-made idea. Scripture is clear that we are not separate. Pride, greed, abuse, and selfish grabs for power is all the church has become known for and has shamed the Name it bears and people want authenticity. There is not an atmosphere of openness where people can come to feed on deep love and truth, question and wrestle with issues, it is just a ritualistic, legalistic, love lacking club where you are expected to nod along to whatever the preacher’s say, unchallenged. Plus here in the south the churches have self segregated so there’s THAT! Paul said no one should be following a teacher, but Christ. And yes most churches I go to are offering baby food and everyone just wants to hear a “good sermon.” The Kingdom of Heaven is at hand. We are just not being fully led to bring it and people will only stick around so long for a lie where the deepest truth is supposed to be. This is supposed to be a Family but churches barely give opportunity to get to know one another in more than an acquaintance way. Even when I want to go to church, I don’t want to go to church cause I know it will leave me hungry.

[@plainspokenpod]

Hey, man. I sympathize with a lot of what you say here. I would ask you to consider if you have drawn the lines where they really need to be. I just don't notice that independent churches are any more faithful than denominational churches. I see the same tendencies towards easy beliefism and phony faking. And I know of a number of churches that are denominationally affiliated that do preach a hard word and have genuine fellowship. When I read Acts of the Apostles, I see churches expected to be mutually accountable to one another, sharing leadership, funds, and doctrine. If that isn't a denomination, then I don't know what is. Satan effectively severed churches from one another in different theological families. The question is what we should do about it now. I think we have to continue to seek and share in common understandings of who Christ is and how he is calling us to live in the world. I'm hoping that my channel does its small part to heal some of the rifts between different tribes of faith. It sounds to me like you would also like to be a part of that project, which began long before me. Anyway, if you would like to see an example of a local church fellowship and worship service that doesn't leave many people hungry, I would invite you to check out my church, the Nowata Methodist Church, online. Live stream worship isn't a replacement for in person worship, but I think sometimes it can be helpful to help people see that there are other ways of doing things, so that we know what to search for in person. I'm glad you care to know the standard of Christ, so that you know what to be disappointed and upset about. I think the only option we have is just to do better. Thanks for sharing your thoughts!

[@saltylitmatt5134]

@@plainspokenpod I don’t mean it how it sounds. I’m not non-denominational either. Sorry if that is how it came across. If you want a better idea of what I mean, look up Howard Storm’s “My Descent into Death.” We will be one as Jesus in John 17 prayed. The true church was the one that shared all things and nothing was held as individual. I’d also recommend Swedenborg and Off the Left Eye. It’s going to be a whole new world, brother! More wonderful and interdependent than we have ever seen or yet imagined as a whole. John’s revelation. I love scripture and realizing people are trying to describe something that can’t be put into our limited words and that we have to look deeper and search harder. I’d love to know your thoughts if you do research it. Once I started studying Luther and Calvin and the Catholic Church and all the rest of church history it amazes me we are still in this mindset. We are slow to progress, but I have to believe it will become more like Christ meant it to be and His poor mutilated Bride will be healed and whole once again, ready for her Groom. And it involves the Jews. “To the Jew first,” remember? Well Jews are discovering their Messiah more than ever before thanks to internet and the Rabbi’s not being able to keep Him out anymore. One for Israel is excellent content for that as well. I am more than willing to admit I don’t know how this will come about. But I believe each of us is given a message and that’s mine. Unity in every aspect is the way forward. No Wesley’s or Luther’s or any other teacher will be our “founder.” Only Christ. Following man-made offshoots only divides. Much love and I will check out your church, man, as I believe in being a missionary to the factions. It’s the only way to bring things into the future of Heaven on Earth! 😊 I will be praying for you on your journey and I ask you to pray for me on mine. My name is Jeanette. It’s getting pretty dark out there but Christ is the Light of the World so we who are in Him do not have to be afraid. That is what my dreams are lately. “Though He slay me, yet will I trust Him!” It’s an amazing. To feel fear ebb away with full submission to the Father and have peaceful love fill it’s place, knowing, “to live is Christ and to die is gain,” and to fully trust that the Father’s Will is perfect. My prayer is that when I die I will die with His Grace and it will bring Glory to Him. But I’m a coward for pain, so it will only be by His Grace and kindness that it comes about.

[@plainspokenpod]

Jeanette, I'm so glad you wrote to clarify. I know about One For Israel and have been very encouraged by them for years. They are so effective that Israel has seriously considered legislation to keep Christians from so successfully converting the population there. I, too, have a literal reading of Jesus' prayer in John 17. I think the current state of division is of the evil one. I'm glad for folks like you who call us into shared submission under the lordship of Christ alone. John Wesley wouldn't be happy with people identifying themselves with him in any sense close to Christ, nor would Calvin. I haven't understood what these men did as man-made offshoots so much as efforts to stem the tide when the church they came from had been compromised by satan. They knew that Christ deserved a pure church, so they attempted to revive one when frustrated by the worldly powers that had coopted their churches. Feel free to stay plugged into what I'm doing here and on my Substack. Make sure I stay on track in the same direction as you, drawing all to the cross!

[@australiagreg3179]

Plus, at the end of the day, it's such a stupid story.