Deep Dive! All About the Klon Centaur Germanium Clipping Diodes!

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Gray Bench Electronics

Gray Bench Electronics

Күн бұрын

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@wonderbars36
@wonderbars36 2 жыл бұрын
K so I worked for the CM that made the reissue. I signed an NDA and out of respect, I won't disclose the actual part number but I will say you're basically spot on. Average Vf is/was approx. 270mV when these were manually tested. As for a replacement, it's a ton of hype folks. The original has PLENTY of alternatives that will work just fine. A 1n34a is plenty close enough. I know this because I fooled the test set up we used by substituting 1n34a's in it. This is as far as I will say about this.
@scrummyvision
@scrummyvision 7 ай бұрын
based
@rnfr
@rnfr 2 жыл бұрын
I was a moderator on FSB at that time and yes I was in the group of folks that were in the project to degoop the Klon. It’s great to see my buddy Martin/Soulsonic get his due. Thanks for putting this record out there. It really means a lot to see this info out there.
@graybenchelec
@graybenchelec 2 жыл бұрын
Thank you! And yes Martin deserves the recognition.
@drayve8590
@drayve8590 Жыл бұрын
Soulsonics research has helped me out immensely in building my Klones!!!
@almostliterally593
@almostliterally593 Жыл бұрын
How did þey degoop it? A ſpecific ſolvent was uſed?
@rocket69218
@rocket69218 Жыл бұрын
@@almostliterally593 I was only a casual reader of the forum at the time but yeah, I think that was the first hurdle. Pedals had been gooped before (or after) either way it wasn't the only circuit to be gooped and finding the right chemicals to remove it without damaging anything else (too badly) was something that was talked about a lot before the Klon was purchased if I recall correctly. I wouldn't be surprised if there's whole threads on the subject of 'de-gooping' over there.
@luminousfractal420
@luminousfractal420 Жыл бұрын
​@@rocket69218 fair amount of chip de capping instructions out there, should be similar. Plenty of people annoyed with the black blobs covering mystery chips.
@andrewjones4277
@andrewjones4277 Жыл бұрын
I have NONE of the requisite technical electronics knowledge to understand these videos. Yet, as a lifelong gear and pedal nerd, I cannot look away. You are doing God's work, my friend. Thank you.
@graybenchelec
@graybenchelec Жыл бұрын
Glad you enjoyed!
@rievezahl
@rievezahl Жыл бұрын
Facts on (germanium) diodes I learned the hard way: 1 - germanium diodes of 1 batch can vary in Vf from 0.3 all the way up to 1.9V (had authentic looking 1N34A and 1N60) lots of them were dead as I got them. 2 - not all multimeters measure at 1mA. I have one that does but also another one does at 2mA. Always check! 3 - shottky diodes usually have Vf of about 0.25V at 1mA, but there are higher Vf ones, up to above 0.3 as well. I could not tell the difference between shottky and germanium by the sound of my hm2 clone at similar Vf. Ugly sound at higher Vf silicon. 4 - the clipping circuit of my Marshall jcm900 preamp clone accepts 1N4007 diodes specifically. Every other diode sound crap. No clue why.
@fives.
@fives. Жыл бұрын
Ahhh, this is the money right here
@christopherleubner6633
@christopherleubner6633 5 ай бұрын
You can use either for this device, where germanium diodes are absolutely needed is an application like a rf detector where capatance must be as low as possible.
@markhammer643
@markhammer643 2 жыл бұрын
In 2007, I received a cold call from Bill, and a request to see if I could coax the pedal into doing something that several customers had requested, *without* changing the basic design or necessitating a change o the board layout. Bill sent me two ungooped boards, one of which had every single component socketed, and a schematic. The idea was that I could sub different component values and compare the modded board to a stock unit. I made myself an enclosure with stompswitch for instant A/B-ing. Have to say I was impressed with the build quality AND the precision of the pots. We had many long chats about the design and his business practices. The schematic (which was returned, along with the boards), had a number of resistors scratched out and subbed with other nearby 1% values. Bill is no electronic engineer (neither am I, for that matter) but he has great ears, and tweaks until he hears what he's aiming for. I did not measure anything about the diodes, but I think several aspects bear noting: 1) The Klon is intended to coax a tube amp into breaking up in a pleasing manner, and was never designed/intended to be an overdrive pedal, producing an overdrive sound itself (i.e., it's *not* a "really really good Tube Screamer", that you could easily recognize by tone, independent of amp being used). 2) It's modus operandi is to provide a *blend* of clean and clipped signals in a certain proportion, that is adjusted as one rotates the Gain control. While the Treble control has both boost and cut, Bill told me he really intended it primarily for cut, to essentially "de-fizz" the signal fed to the amp. 3) While I am a hard agnostic on the differences between diodes, apart from their forward voltage differences, one needs to remember that forward voltage is largely fixed. So if one is intending to blend X amount of clipping with Y amount of clean, the diodes' forward voltage will determine both how hard that clipping is AND what the resulting clipped amplitude is going to be coming out of that path. In the same way that any issue of the Big Muff Pi can be coaxed into sounding like any other by leaving the transistors as is and playing around with the surrounding component values, I would imagine the Klon and KTR could also be coaxed into sound the same, with a change in diode. *BUT* it would necessitate hand-selecting the diodes from a batch, and changing other aspects of the design such that the clipped/clean balance at each Gain-control setting and the hardness of clipping is also preserved. The easier path to pursue is simply to use the same diodes for each unit. If the unit ONLY used clipped signal, without any attempt to blend, then one diode is pretty much as good as another, and adjusting the Gain to push them into the clipping you want is all you really need from them. But it is the strategic *blending* of clean and clipped (using a dual-ganged pot for the two paths) that is fundamental to the Klon, so diode selection, without any other changes to the design or calibration requirements, is critical. It bears noting that pretty much all diodes have a *range* of possible Vf. If I go through my bin of 1N914/4148s, some are in the range of 510mv and others up around 650. Similarly, germaniums can be anywhere from 250mv up to maybe 380mv. So, having a consistent supply of Ge diodes from the same manufacturer can assure (to some extent) that they are all very close to each other in specs, especially if from the same batch. Again, if the pedal was ONLY a distortion unit with diodes to ground, like the MXR Distortion+, batch-to-batch differences in Vf wouldn't matter. You just adjust the Gain control, and Bob's your uncle. Personally, I think far too much is made of the "knee" in diodes. Keep in mind that diodes' principle historical use is in switching circuits, with distortion/drive pedals way way down the list. Is the point at which a diode goes into full conduction important? Sure, but for speeds/frequencies well outside of what musicians, and especially guitarists, would find relevant. As a player, conducting in 200nsec vs 100nsec is meaningless. ALL specs always need to be considered in-context.
@graybenchelec
@graybenchelec 2 жыл бұрын
You know, I've heard you tell this story a couple times now, and I've always wondered; why wait until 2007 to make a change? By that time Bill was hardly keeping up with demand, waiting list was 2 months long. The klon was as big a boutique pedal success as we had seen until that point. Why change the pedal now? I can understand people pestering Bill to make the pedal do some specific thing, but surely the silence of those lining up around the block to mail order the original pedal was deafening?
@markhammer643
@markhammer643 2 жыл бұрын
@@graybenchelec My sense is that it wasn't a "change" as much as a custom order. Despite many hours of phone talk, Bill never mentioned anyone by name. But some buyers were more like "'clients" than mere buyers. Your Joe Perrys, et al. would reputedly buy a bunch of Klons, to have one and a backup for the Europe rig, another for the west coast rig and another for the down under rig (big shot acts that tour the world often have rigs stashed all over to avoid international shipping). My experience with Bill was that he was not big on change to the pedal. I tried to get him to change from a 1/8" phone jack for power to a more standard 2.1mm jack, and even got former Small Bear proprietor Steve Daniels to find a locking 2.1mm plug/jack set from Kobbiconn that I felt would meet Bill's reliability requirements. As you know, more recent era Klons use a 2.1mm jack, so Bill eventually adapted, but it didn't come quickly. Part of the delay in production was the 20 minute "screening calls" that would eat into his build time. Another was the casting of the custom enclosure that could only be done in small batches, and impose delays as he waited for the next batch to be completed. The uniqueness of the chassis made it easy for him to avoid the counterfeiting that Zachary Vex had experienced with his use of common Hammond boxes for his early SHO pedals. But it created its own set of issues by upping production costs and imposing delays.
@graybenchelec
@graybenchelec 2 жыл бұрын
​@@markhammer643 Hmm I imagine using that kobiconn jack, while I agree would be much easier for the player, would require modification of the template used for making the molds. I know Bill had enough issues getting the castings made.
@markhammer643
@markhammer643 2 жыл бұрын
@@graybenchelec The jack itself was not really different from any other 2.1mm jack, in terms of profile, mounting, or space requirements, except that it had little slots on the side where the plug could slide into, a bit like a BNC jack/plug arrangement. Where a BNC has the little "earlets" sticking out on the jack/socket, the Kobiconn has them on the plug itself. The bonus is that ANY standard 2.1mm plug can work with the jack; the Kobiconn plug just adds that little extra prevention against being pulled out. Bill expressed that he felt the standard 2.1mm jack/plug was not as secure/reliable as a phone plug, with that little "click" of a phone plug snapping into place providing some assurance. While the male half of the Kobiconn pair provided every bit as much assurance as a phone plug (if not more because it locks), not every 9V supply used would have the male-with-ears. My sense is that the global move away from phone-plug external-power supplies, was a response to the tendency for absentminded users to produce unsettling sparks when they'd plug the wallwart in *first* and then insert the power plug to the pedal. Bill resisted this, in favour of the "phone plug click", for entirely legitimate reasons, although a compromise was available. Perhaps you are right that a change in power connector type would have necessitated an awkward or costly change. As well, and I don't say this in any snarky way, I suppose there are things about a "pro" setup that I simply don't know or appreciate. I'm not Pete Cornish. But thanks for your replies. I hope my own were not antagonistic, or painted Bill in any negative light. I'm deeply appreciative of the trust he placed in me and the opportunity he provided.
@graybenchelec
@graybenchelec 2 жыл бұрын
@@markhammer643 I don't think anything you said came off as antagonistic or critical. I had a long phone conversation with Bill, he was gracious with his time. It's clear he still has a ton of passion for his pedal. Obsessing over small details like the type of DC plug, or the specific length of the buffer switch on the KTR are exactly what I would expect.
@bonzology322
@bonzology322 Жыл бұрын
Great video, Simple criticism, if you don’t point out a destination, the execution of your teaching appears arbitrary and pointless, explaining how a klon achieves its distortion in its finality and only then building a path to that finality will keep people interested and on point vs glazing over Edit; tbc, how the diodes clip in the circuit
@Dr-Curious
@Dr-Curious Жыл бұрын
I find OD mythology so hilarious. I changed Si for stacked Ge diodes in many pedals and nobody could EVER hear the difference. I can hear and I'm now a producer for majors. Distortion masks TONS of stuff that people CANNOT hear. The EQ manipulation and sequence is all that matters in a "stock" gain unit derived from the classic ODs.
@petersage5157
@petersage5157 Жыл бұрын
I've read a paper about using Schottky diodes with a low value tail resistor to get something very close to the waveform produced by germanium diodes; perhaps this is one of the tweaks that Finnegan is considering. In the end, it's all about the harmonic content produced at the design voltage and current, and this can be easily analyzed with a hobbyist-grade DSO with a FFT spectrum analyzer function.
@joseislanio8910
@joseislanio8910 Жыл бұрын
And you'd end up with something even more reliable
@matimoksa
@matimoksa Жыл бұрын
nux horseman actually use schottky
@koonsickgreen6272
@koonsickgreen6272 3 ай бұрын
Watched the whole thing. You rock bro. Liked and subscribed!!
@seanbell8216
@seanbell8216 2 жыл бұрын
I can't believe your videos only have as many views as they do. Your page is the perfect source of information for my level of knowledge. Thank you!
@graybenchelec
@graybenchelec 2 жыл бұрын
Glad you're enjoying, thanks!
@josearjona3728
@josearjona3728 2 жыл бұрын
This video is beyond amazing, man. Thanks a lot for all the work!
@graybenchelec
@graybenchelec 2 жыл бұрын
Thank you!
@PlusDeltaM
@PlusDeltaM 9 ай бұрын
Fun fact: I once e-mailed Geoff Farina from Karate in the late 00's about his setup on their live album 595, it's a really beautiful tone; he told me that he used a Klon and that he actually worked for Bill at one point putting them together! He also said he got his for the "right" price.
@bradfordjeff
@bradfordjeff 2 жыл бұрын
I worked on a similar project from 2001 thru 2004. We didn't try to duplicate the circuit. We just analyzed input vs. output and made something that did the same thing. The takeaway was that its all about the gain vs. the voltage drop from the clipping diodes. We ended up using a TL082 and 1n34a combo.
@jagmarc
@jagmarc Жыл бұрын
Most of what you heard came from the 1N34A
@bradfordjeff
@bradfordjeff Жыл бұрын
@@jagmarc Correct. The TLO82 does not load the guitar side of the circuit and does not color the signal, only adds amplitude.
@Shim267
@Shim267 Жыл бұрын
I put a few klones together for some friends of mine and for some weird reason a lot of them liked em better than the KTR (maybe they were just trying to be nice). I did take a few liberties with some caps etc but otherwise I gave no fucks, was mostly going for reliability. I really appreciate your deep dive on this, I'm pretty well versed with a lot of this stuff but I still learned something new. Very insightful. Overall I think this is a harsh lesson in how much we get too get too mired down in the details as musicians when a lot of this stuff largely doesn't matter. Use your ears!
@echelonrank3927
@echelonrank3927 Жыл бұрын
i made a klon for a musician with a switch to select a bunch of different diodes. found him using it with the NO DIODE setting !
@al271987
@al271987 2 жыл бұрын
The current edition of the Chellee Ponyboy has a diode switch and even at full gain you’d have to have the ears of a bat to hear the difference between the shotkys and the germanium. The fellow at Chellee basically says as much in his description of the pedal but because of the requests he got he put the option in. As Josh at JHS says, it’s not the individual parts, it’s the circuit as a whole and how those parts are used in the circuit. As someone who’s owned way too many klones (currently it’s an Emerson Golden Face, but I’ve also had the Sugar Drive, the Conspiracy Theory, the Archer, the Archer IKON, the Soul Food, the Ponyboy, v2 and v3 of the Architect, and probably a few more than that), I can tell anyone who will listen that they’re basically all the same. Some of the extra features on the ones with more than 3 knobs are nice to have, but they all sound like Klons.
@andrewhopkins3594
@andrewhopkins3594 2 жыл бұрын
Good to see magic pedal component speculation cleared up with actual testing. Thanks - great channel for us pedal nerds.
@graybenchelec
@graybenchelec 2 жыл бұрын
Thank you!
@erikvincent5846
@erikvincent5846 2 жыл бұрын
Good video as always. I would love to see a teardown on a Harmonic Percolator or the Burns Buzzaround. I always really dug those circuits.
@graybenchelec
@graybenchelec 2 жыл бұрын
Thanks!
@erikvincent5846
@erikvincent5846 2 жыл бұрын
@@graybenchelec we need to do a collab video one of these days.
@graybenchelec
@graybenchelec 2 жыл бұрын
@@erikvincent5846 shoot me a DM if you have an idea! @graybenchelec
@jalmonsalmon
@jalmonsalmon 2 жыл бұрын
Been using the burns buzzaround lately and now my fav fuzz. Thing is a beast
@RockAudioExperiments
@RockAudioExperiments Жыл бұрын
It's so wholesome to see an absolute legend here, supporting another great channel. Thanks to both of you for being constant sources of inspiration 🤘🤘
@rickr7333
@rickr7333 2 жыл бұрын
If you want to get closer to the original response of a germanium diode with a silicon diode you just add a small resistor in series to reduce the sharpness of the current curve.
@jagmarc
@jagmarc Жыл бұрын
@Rick R Junk the silicon! Or utilise any germanium transistor instead. Or if you want silicon then use the smallest cheapest silicon SCHOTTKY diode you can find with a trim-pot resistor
@mygreatbigfoot1679
@mygreatbigfoot1679 Жыл бұрын
All these clones are all very well, but is the paint correct on your clone and have you paid more for it than anyone else on your block? The great advantage of a Klon is that the more it costs then the more professional musicians can claim back as an expense against their tax.
@RogerBarraud
@RogerBarraud Жыл бұрын
Interesting. Thanks! Also: FU for starting a shortage of Russian Ge diodes!!11!! ;-)
@augustusbetucius2931
@augustusbetucius2931 Жыл бұрын
It was the tube screamer, the Rat, Boss DS-1 and the Boss SD-1 as the most popukar. There were plenty of others, but those were the big four in 1990. Around that time I was using the TC Electronics boost/overdrive which was and is an excellent pedal. Too bad those are also absurdly expensive now.
@augustusbetucius2931
@augustusbetucius2931 Жыл бұрын
Watched it all the way through. I appreciate the work you did hear. I already knew all the history and drama, but the technicals analysis was what kept me watching. Thanks, cool video.
@travishaynes1180
@travishaynes1180 9 ай бұрын
That curved line doesn't look anything like a diode !! You should work on it !!😂
@thumbsdownbandit
@thumbsdownbandit 8 ай бұрын
Wouldn't be guitar gear if it didn't have esoteric properties...
@MikeJones-ro5nl
@MikeJones-ro5nl Жыл бұрын
Why didn’t the analysis team use an actual semiconductor parameter analyzer to examine the diode characteristics?
@mindfield9832
@mindfield9832 4 ай бұрын
Seth Rogan’s brother teaching us about the magic diodes.
@Linguae_Music
@Linguae_Music 6 ай бұрын
They're not magic, they're just germanium! xDDD
@timchalmers1700
@timchalmers1700 Жыл бұрын
Thanks for making this video. I really like the way you explain ideas that are beyond my current level of understanding. So yeah, I subscribed and I'll check to see what else you can teach me.
@earfors
@earfors 3 ай бұрын
Built a custom klon, I wouldn’t sell it for less than 5k.
@jagmarc
@jagmarc Жыл бұрын
What's all this about? I remember first hand in the 50s & 60s there were loads of different germanium diodes all over circuit boards, fancy expensive gold bonded ones for TV, and somehow the cheapest crappyiest diodes worked the best in fuzz pedals, pulled from japonese transistor radios. Then silly silicon ones were the future of electronics and sounded shit when tried in pedals.
@MidlifeRenaissanceMan
@MidlifeRenaissanceMan Жыл бұрын
Exactly. This video just turned up in my recommended videos. There goes an hour of my day plus checking out all his other videos. It’s what you get when you’re a musician and a ham that’s into home brewing, repairs and mods to audio and radio gear I’m convinced that the sound all depends on the nonlinear portion of the curves on these diodes. Engineers guarantee performance at the linear portion of the curves. Musicians , and especially guitarists, are Interested in the “fractals” between the guaranteed specs. I’ve built a few circuits over the years, for guitarists I’m friends with, and modded some cheap pedals to make them much sweeter. Swapping out diodes with hand selected pairs to find the sweetest tone, often the more the mismatch, the better it sounds. It’s proven better to order bulk diodes from some random Chinese components distributor, as the consistency isn’t there and you get to pick some sweet sweet sounding combinations that you’ll never quite repeat. I guess it depends on what you’re aiming for. Something that’s a freak one off pedal, unique to you, or something you can sell tens, hundreds or tens of thousands of. That said, I’m more interested in what someone’s hands are doing as opposed to what’s at their feet.
@jagmarc
@jagmarc Жыл бұрын
@@MidlifeRenaissanceMan Yeah I hear what you're saying quite true, I've spent my whole engineering career adapting and keeping up with how things change and turns over. What's always been fascinatign for me is un-documented performance, rather like some doctors can use licensed pharmacuetical products 'off-label' to cure a patient. One thing is sure the hype and marketing stays the same - to pull the wool over the eyes of the novice with some "sacred science" & "purity" that they must buy rather than work it out themselves (rather like I-Phone Mentality: they think owning Apple product automatically makes you the image portrayed in the marketing). In the studio back in tape days so often I've configured a patch for a project, which doesn't get properly documented, then when the client comes back later date and we follow what what was documented just can't recreate that same sound again.
@chrisw1462
@chrisw1462 Жыл бұрын
Silicon diode forward voltage drop is 0.7 volts, not 0.6.
@MrGul
@MrGul Жыл бұрын
Fun fact: The word "clone" translates to "klon" in Swedish, so "Klon clone" becomes "Klon-klon".
@paulperry7091
@paulperry7091 Жыл бұрын
I notice around 48:20 that the distorted waveform is not symmetric. I strongly suspect that if the signal was examined immediately after the diodes, it would be (assuming identical diodes). This makes me think that the asymmetric part of the distortion comes from the TL02 later in the circuit that has an asymmetric power supply (with respect to signal ground.) If true, this means that at least some of the charm of the Klon is from overdriving the TL072.
@jesseyasaitis9036
@jesseyasaitis9036 Жыл бұрын
Those mythical diodes aren't even used when used as a clean boost.
@ramilrodriguez8340
@ramilrodriguez8340 2 жыл бұрын
Great video. I built a klon clone with 1N34A and love it. However like all pedals I’ve built as clones I modified it to my liking making it more versatile. I like this circuit a lot and in some guitar/amp/other gear combinations it works perfect but in some cases I felt it cut too much low end. Mine has a bass knob(pot) among other features. I like the clean boost thing but I like much more how it sounds at higher gain settings.
@michaelinglis567
@michaelinglis567 Жыл бұрын
ive been building klons for myself and friends for the past 5 years or so that i mod to have a two channel type set up. I came up with all the mods on my own except the initial gain increase that allows the second mode/boost to work. Its something i would have done anyways but ive seen it on some diy pedal kits as an optional mod so Idont want to take credit for that part lol. Anyways the way i do it is i use a second footswitch that switches four parameters simultaneously to give the klon a boost mode (which includes a boost gain and boost volume pot). But the boost isnt adding any extra circuits before or after the klon circuit its just piggybacking on existing components. I came up with this mod because most people like to use Klons as a clean boost and miss out on the great overdriven Klon tone. So by having a boost/channel 2 type option you can have both. The boost also incorporates a boost gain and boost volume pot that i put slightly above and in between the stock pots/knobs. Because of the way i get the extra gain (10K resistor in place of the 47k R16 if youre looking at the electro-smash schematic) there is enough extra gain that you can get the klon to be even more versatile with single coils. So it can do clean boost to high gain and everything in between. The klon really has much more grunt to offer that just is wasted in its stock configuration. It really makes the Klon circuit so much better in my opinion. The other important part of the mod is adding a minimum gain resistor to the op amp gain stage half of the dual gang pot. Without the minimum gain resistor in place when the boost is active you wont get a boost unless you turn up the stock gain pot a little bit. But with the minimum gain resistor you can have the stock gain at zero for a clean boost then hit the boost footswitch and get a great overdriven klon tone. The stock gain pot and the boost gain and volume are all very interactive with one another since they are reacting just as the stock circuit does. Anyways i might not be doing it justice with my explanation but the modded pedal is really great and id love to built a few extras so more people can experience it. With the boost not engaged its just a typical stock klon because my modification moto is "only add functionality/versatility but never take stock functionality away" so all my pedal builds that ive modded retain their stock functionality via switches etc.. Ive even used some of those cheap klon kits as a base for my modded klons to keep the price down for a couple friends who wanted one but are generally as broke as i am most of the time lol. I keep meaning to put together a complete pcb of the klon circuit with my mods on express pcb so i can post it and other people can build this version of the klon themselves. Anyways i just saw this an figured maybe a fellow klon enthusiast might see this and want to build a Klon with these mods also. If anyone wants to know the full scope of the mods so they can build one or mod an existing klon just let me know and id be happy to answer questions and explain more in depth how to do the mods!
@scrummyvision
@scrummyvision 7 ай бұрын
love your approach to extending existing functionality and building on top of it. I'd love to see some more details on the fully modded version; the dual channel reminds me of my Marshall combo that has two lead channels. the versatility is so big. any other mods people ask for? I'd love to make pedals for folks but I haven't lived here long enough to meet anyone
@johnwebb2562
@johnwebb2562 8 ай бұрын
Thanks 😊 for a wonderful 👍 video that has demistyfied the Klon. It's great to get educational info from genuine honest people like yourself. Some others wrap fluff around Scientific concepts calling them nerdy. Thanks very much. Best regards 😸.John.
@Earthwormjimm
@Earthwormjimm 9 ай бұрын
Love this. Only gripe I have is I’ve never seen the klon as transparent. It has to be the most midrange heavy drive in history
@TheNathanMChannel
@TheNathanMChannel Жыл бұрын
I just want to comment on the impressive amount of editing done to remove all pauses in your speech. That’s a lotta edit points! I’ve never played a centaur myself but I still found it interesting. Thanks.
@OceanusHelios
@OceanusHelios Жыл бұрын
I'm no musician at all. This might make me sound dumb, but the sound from the diodes I perceived as being "wetter" and without them as "more dry." So I did notice a perceptable difference. I guess I would call it watery. Odd the words that we choose.
@fullwaverecked
@fullwaverecked Жыл бұрын
But aren't Geraniums very dependent on temperature? Depends on what month it is? Don't get me wrong, I'm a noob at this and I'm not talking down to anyone. Electronics, and vintage to start with, is all I've got left that gets me up in the morning. At 60 I found that three holes in my air mattress means I have found a new girlfriend. Turns out she's just a blow up doll and as soon as I patched it, she was gone... Cheers!
@shaunmacey6137
@shaunmacey6137 2 жыл бұрын
Great video - and really well explained. So when we talk about the qualities/properties of ANY drive/boost pedal - and the small differences in operating characteristics between Si and Ge diodes, and their manufacturing tolerances, and their operation in the context of the whole circuit (which is full of other components with manufacturing tolerances) - which you then connect to a guitar with different strings, pickup types, pickup output levels - into a huge range of amplifiers with different preamp and power amp topologies - through many different types of speaker in different enclosures - in different acoustic spaces - at a wide range of different volumes - in a band context alongside other instruments - then into your personal and highly individual listening equipment (i.e. ears) - can anybody really tell the difference? Having said that, I'm a sucker for drive/boost pedals - and I love buying and trying them! The most important thing is what sounds good to YOU and inspires you to play/practice/learn : ) Great channel and great content - thank you, and keep up the good work!
@graybenchelec
@graybenchelec 2 жыл бұрын
Yep. :)
@jalmonsalmon
@jalmonsalmon 2 жыл бұрын
Real world playing klones vs Klon... lol Those magic diodes are moot point
@NebulaStudios1
@NebulaStudios1 Жыл бұрын
Excellent presentation. The use of the white board and oscilloscope was the best explanation I've seen on this platform. I lived down the street from Finnegan in Brookline, MA in the 90s. I never bought one as it was expensive back in day. I saw friends perform with them, Suke Cerulo being one in the 90s. I have the J.Rocket Gold, and the Mythos versions. My JHS Double Barrel is more flexible.
@YaYa-ke1zr
@YaYa-ke1zr 2 жыл бұрын
Yes, the Klon Centaur diodes are magical, just like those little chips in the Tubescreamers are magical. Tone is hidden in those diodes and chips. Yup.
@rotaxtwin
@rotaxtwin Жыл бұрын
Interesting stuff, I don't play but I have an interest in solid state and tube electronics and putting the before/after signal on the scope was interesting. I wonder if folk have successfully used other devices to clip the audio signal and generate the harmonics, way out stuff like neon bulbs or devices with other gases in them that may give the desired non-linear effect. There is so much lore attached to a given diode part number or even an op amp in pedals - how much is just lore and how much is fact we will likely never know but it is always interesting diving in to these circuits to explore them. Your video explained things quite well IMHO and I envy your tidy, spacious bench.
@Cowboybebub
@Cowboybebub 7 ай бұрын
Great video, thanks!
@rodpolako464
@rodpolako464 2 жыл бұрын
Great video! I do have a question though. You mentioned that Soulsonic tested the diodes on a Peak Atlas DCA 55 which resulted in the forward Voltage of 0.35 V @ 5mA and that this is a source of confusion since multimeters typically test at 1mA. Couldn't Soulsonic or whoever currently has the s698 just re-test the diodes at 1mA to and find out the forward voltage? Wouldn't that make it easier to know what to look for?
@graybenchelec
@graybenchelec 2 жыл бұрын
As far as I know, Soulsonic is no longer in possession of S698, it was sold off. Keep in mind this was nearly 15 years ago. Good news is all but the newest KTRs have the same diodes, and the test can be performed in circuit. In fact, keep an eye out for a future video and you might get the info you seek 😉
@sabbadius
@sabbadius 2 жыл бұрын
This is awesome. SUPER clear with al the details. Thank you man. Cheers. Nico
@graybenchelec
@graybenchelec 2 жыл бұрын
Thank you!
@cincinattiblues
@cincinattiblues Жыл бұрын
Can't believe I made it all the way through the video, very, captivating, informative and very good run through on the Klon pedal, with significance or not on those diodes and what the real run down is with them. Thank you.
@Wolf_K
@Wolf_K 2 жыл бұрын
Great video! I was around FSB during this time [2007] (still am) and all this information on the tracing, and who made it happen, is correct. In my view, if someone wants a clean boost they’d be better of with a super hard on…or even better, a self built one. My take away from this Klon business is what I’ve always known about each and every hobby or field I’ve been involved in; that is that 99% of its content and “must have” mojo is hype and nonsense disseminated by people who know very little about the fundamental elements of their chosen hobby or whatever. How many “Klon experts” could actually build a nice overdrive if you threw a handful of parts on a bench for them? Very few, I would say. This is the way of the world and always has been. Great show anyways, man! Edited to add: You should maybe start a “GBE Videos” thread on FSB and every time you do a new video post a new reply with it in your thread. It might well get you some more exposure; which would be great and inline with what FSB is all about: the free exchange of truthful information.
@graybenchelec
@graybenchelec 2 жыл бұрын
Thanks for the suggestion! I usually post the teardowns in the relevant thread, but I like your idea too :)
@XXBeOriginalXX
@XXBeOriginalXX Жыл бұрын
what is FSB and GBE?
@randalkramer1432
@randalkramer1432 2 жыл бұрын
Just watched the hour long video, liked and subscribed. Also Five Watt World did a good video on the history of the Klon. I look forward to seeing more of your videos.
@Mister_G
@Mister_G 3 ай бұрын
This has been in my 'watch later' list for ages (because, you know, run time...). I have to say that It was superb and well worth the watch. I knew various bits of the story around Bill and the FSB de-gooping, and had fallen into the diode rabbit-hole when I built my own clone (1N5711 anybody?) but seeing it all laid out as a coherent presentation was fantastic. Congratulations on putting this together in such a complete way - I don't see how you could have made it any shorter.
@lichen8855
@lichen8855 Жыл бұрын
Great dive! Thanks for providing this. The lowest forward voltage thing I have ever discovered was using jfets as diodes and tying the "wrong" legs together. Got a forward voltage of about 0.1 on some of them. This was only on some of them. Others didn't work that way at all if I recall correctly. Probably @ 1 ma as I was using a MM
@twomuttsaudio
@twomuttsaudio 7 ай бұрын
Fantastic overview - and made me laugh when I looked at the video duration ;-) I'm about to build a Klon clone myself, and this was perfect timing!
@scrummyvision
@scrummyvision 7 ай бұрын
I decided to put it on because I had a 1 hour car drive 😂 I knew a lot of the story at a high level but not the soulsonic bit.
@weschilton
@weschilton Жыл бұрын
Very interesting and well presented video! I too have a Ceriatone Centura and find that it sounds exactly like my friend's "real" late 90's Klon Centaur, for about 1/20th the price!
@jasonwright7513
@jasonwright7513 Жыл бұрын
I currently have the J Rockket iKon, which has the germanium clipping diodes. I also had the silver version which has the silicon diodes. They both sound great in my opinion the silver has a different kind of gain which might be better for modern guitar playing. The germanium diodes produce a warmer sound which in my opinion is less transparent and more suited to blues and Americana music styles but that's just my opinion. I sold the silver version to a friend and often wish that I kept it.
@TommySprocket
@TommySprocket Жыл бұрын
J Rockett just added a new version called the Archer Select kzbin.info/www/bejne/gKCmeJeagc6UeZI&ab_channel=Reverb Nice analysis Mr Mush and I hope your brain returns to normal all kidding aside great video it should be gratifing to you that over a year later people are still watching and responding to your views. Great job Sir!
@jephable
@jephable Жыл бұрын
Great video, very well explained. I'm curious about one thing that I'm pretty sure you didn't mention but maybe was implied: Can we assume the rest of the circuit is a perfect recreation? Are the diodes the only point that have a hard to pin down variable that would effect overall EQ of the pedal? I ask because other Klone videos have mentioned that getting the distortion close to right isn't so hard, but the EQ of the pedal, the very sound of it is what's not well copied in most cases. Thanks again for all the info!
@graybenchelec
@graybenchelec Жыл бұрын
It's a good question, but the truth is there is no "klon" sound. There is the specific-sound-of-a-specific-klon-that-person-heard-that-one-time. Electronics components have tolerances, components can differ sometimes as much as +-20% off their marked value. Combine that with the human component, which can cause us to hear things differently based on seemingly unrelated factors, like how much sleep the got the night before, or how was breakfast? There are many parts in the klon after which changing the value would provide a perceivable change in the tone of the pedal, but can we repeat it? Do we care to? Is the goal to match a specific klon sound as accurately as possible, or to create the sound that sounds best?
@rickpapineau2704
@rickpapineau2704 9 ай бұрын
Very good 3 part series on the Klon circuit. I forgot I was was a tech who used an O-scope in my early years. I wonder if used O-scopes can be picked up cheap? I'm finding the "Tech" in me is coming back after watching this video and the JHS video on his Pedal building where he used an Atlas tester. I just ordered GM328A transistor/diode/capacitor/freq meter/volt meter from a Chinese company dirt cheap . I'll have to read up on what test milliamps it uses. I just retired and finding more hobbies than I years left. Basement is full of benches for guitar setup/repair/electronics testing/Cad computers/toolmakers scope/microscope with video . Garage is a full machine shop . Might have start a business. Looking forward to your next series.
@julesspeight8
@julesspeight8 Жыл бұрын
Excellent work, I'm building a klone from stewmac at the moment and have a prebuilt mjolnir Klone too so nice to know the real technicalities behind the diodes
@das250250
@das250250 Жыл бұрын
Just a note of improvement ..on mobile phones viewing whiteboard with green pen is difficult .. thick blues and blacks work and also large writing helps ..
@pepticon
@pepticon Ай бұрын
the one in austria that supposed to do the tracing at first, was that "analogguru"? used to do lot of reading at FSB pre-2010, but not quite following the klon project.
@J.C...
@J.C... Жыл бұрын
Everybody already knows the diodes aren't in use without any gain aka "clean boost" mode 🤷 Its a well-known fact, I thought 🤣 so it's no more controversial than it was yesterday or a month ago or a year ago. 🤷
@willernst8376
@willernst8376 Жыл бұрын
I will say I support your conclusions 100%. But I do know that an oscilloscope is actually a very poor tool to observe distortion in sine waves. Just like the human ear can not hear a difference of 5% distortion, you can not really see it on the scope either. That is why in rf engineering and other disciplines, they use spectrum analyzers or other tools to measure the real THD of the waves. A better test for the scope would have been to put a low value resistor on the diode free end and use the scope to observe the diode current under operation. That way, you isolate the diodes and only observe what current actually flows. Anyway, great video, and keep up the good work!
@SDisonYT
@SDisonYT 2 жыл бұрын
I don’t think Boss or Strymon make a Klon clone do they?
@jimmy_jamesjams_a_lot4171
@jimmy_jamesjams_a_lot4171 Жыл бұрын
Ahh, when one person’s personal efforts in soldering away the days building that one pedal suddenly becomes less than enough to keep up with his business - but wait!?? Why didn’t this gentleman, Mr. Bill, hire one or two electronics hobbyist friends to better keep up with the demand that was overwhelming him? There are a few business administration epiphanies wrapped up in this story. Really interesting, THANKS!! Edit: ¡¿¡DAMN!?! Also, there are a few EE Eurekas surrounding the finer datasheets points of DIODES! ¡Absolutely comprehensive, very good and insightful presentation, THANKS again!
@RogerBarraud
@RogerBarraud Жыл бұрын
Shock Horror Probe: The awesome sound actually comes solely from the Black Goop!!!!1!!1!! ;-)
@simonkormendy849
@simonkormendy849 2 жыл бұрын
Personally, I don't think it is essential to "match" the forward-voltages of two small-signal diodes used in a diode-clipper circuit, considering that a small amount of asymmetry in the resultant clipping is considered to sound good, or more musical, also consider that symmetrical clipping tends to produce a lot of odd-harmonics which will sound hollow, metallic, or a bit unpleasant/harsh, whereas asymmetrical clipping tends to produce both odd and even-harmonics, which tends to sound more musical, incidentally, the amount of asymmetry in the clipping determines the ratio of odd and even harmonics produced by the clipping.
@chrisfit
@chrisfit 2 жыл бұрын
Thanks
@ToddBeck76
@ToddBeck76 Жыл бұрын
Making a 5mA current source to test Vf with a standard multimeter is quite easy. You really want something that can trace Vf across a varying current ramp, though. Then compare alternative candidates against Vf measurement curves from known true Klon Centaur diodes.
@TedSchoenling
@TedSchoenling 2 жыл бұрын
I put 2 sets of diodes on a switch and can have No diodes 1n60p or 1n4148 depending on how much clipping want. Nobody complains that it isn't a real klon....
@glendoggett9670
@glendoggett9670 Жыл бұрын
Printing “These are essential” on the circuit board basically is ridiculous hype of his making, no?
@joerectifier
@joerectifier Жыл бұрын
Outstanding video…and points proven. I enjoy these topics and I think it’s great fun to search and find the tone one wants- it’s human nature. In the end, the whole Klon hype is fun to watch as a bystander - I learned a long time ago that one can take a well setup Fender Squire Telecaster to a gig with an SX300 solid state amp and get the job done with great tone….I have used that Carvin SX300 at my biggest gigs with a $600 LTD guitar and no pedals ….guitar, cable volume knob and have had some of my best fun. Still, I enjoy the hype and search and playing with these things. Again, very well done!
@jesinbeverly
@jesinbeverly Жыл бұрын
Now change the temperature by 10 degrees. All of a sudden you have a diode with completely different set of characteristics;)
@gerryjamesedwards1227
@gerryjamesedwards1227 10 ай бұрын
Someone with a loop calibrator and an original, degooped Klon (ok, that's got to be a small group) could easily make a If/Vf plot for each diode. That would make finding replacements much easier. A proper curve tracer, like the Tek577, could do the testing, but those cost even more than a Fluke 78X loop calibrator, and the Fluke would do a perfectly good job.
@DarrenDoo
@DarrenDoo 6 ай бұрын
Do you think about ever creating "lessons" on guitar pedal building? You're extremely helpful in explaining a lot of the material, super methodical and thought what a killer series you could create on the subject! Your videos are killer and I learned a lot watching this!
@grillsandaxlegrease3578
@grillsandaxlegrease3578 Жыл бұрын
Pedal or not - I'm here just to get caught up on my diode knowledge.. Let's see if I learn something!
@BopKitBill
@BopKitBill 6 ай бұрын
Question: If you leave the gain down...... but drive the input hard, will the diodes then affect the signal...or does the actual gain on the pedal have to be high? Is it just a function of the size of the signal running thru the pedal? That would seem logical anyway...No?
@pir869
@pir869 Жыл бұрын
If you can crank a tube amp so the cops don't get called,you don't need to use a drive pedal,you can have the amp fixed to get the sound you want,if you can't crank it use a pedal to drive the amp. Fixes for the tube output are power scaling or changing the screen circuit. For a drive pedal i make tube drive pedals. simple
@markehuss
@markehuss Жыл бұрын
It's funny, the clipped waveform looks more like an integrator/LPF than clipping. That's really soft clipping.
@gcvrsa
@gcvrsa Жыл бұрын
There's nothing magical about the diodes. They are just germanium diodes in a hard clipping configuration. Honestly, I hate germanium diodes, because their forward voltage is so low that they clip way too much and sound way too compressed. I'd like to hear the Centaur circuit with the diodes removed completely, because my favorite version of the RAT and the Bluesbreaker are the versions without the clipping diodes.
@carminecupani2315
@carminecupani2315 Жыл бұрын
Germanium diodes are still available. Not hard to get. A clipping circuit isn’t rocket science. The Electroharnonix big muff pi uses germanium semiconductors.
@guitfidle
@guitfidle Жыл бұрын
Wow, I would have never guessed the other tester used a higher current to measure..... I have a semi-conductor tester, I wonder what mine uses... I do have a bag full of 1N34a, and have a fairly reliable source, I also bought 100 Russian equivalent, but I can't remember what part number they are, but I'm sure I have that somewhere.
@claudevieaul1465
@claudevieaul1465 Жыл бұрын
The funny thing is, of course, if anybody from outside the US were to try to 'degoop' electronics, they would happily be sued to shreds by your triggerhappy lawyers... 🤣🤣🤣🤣
@rickya3877
@rickya3877 Жыл бұрын
I don't buy the theory that Bill stopped making the Centaur because the schematic came out...there were always people who would pay for the real deal and most Klones (except for the PCE Aluminum Falcon) sucked
@davebing11
@davebing11 Жыл бұрын
The actual key is NOT the forward voltage but the curve shape (ie a much broader knee). Vf can be compensated for by scaling the circuit. To get the curve shape, most likely you have to use non pure Germanium diodes made in a 3rd world (or 4th world) country in order to get the curve shape with the much bigger 'knee'
@fen3184
@fen3184 2 жыл бұрын
That was extremely interesting, thank you!
@graybenchelec
@graybenchelec 2 жыл бұрын
Glad you enjoyed!
@sea-ferring
@sea-ferring Жыл бұрын
I'm pretty sure the "Klon/KTR magic" has nothing to do with specific diodes and everything to do with Bill Finnegan's ears.
@jonnyhafer7376
@jonnyhafer7376 Жыл бұрын
i remember when the group bought the pedal i wasn't one of them but i was reading that thread as ive been building pedals since 2003 or so.
@michaelkaliski7651
@michaelkaliski7651 Жыл бұрын
Electronic components are produced in batches to meet the requirements for a given level of performance. Manufacturers test and grade components before packaging and adding identity marks. If components don’t meet their design specifications but would otherwise work okay, they frequently find their way to third party retailers as “seconds” or “equivalents”. These are sold off to hobbyists and manufacturers producing products that do not depend on high spec components such as kids toys and cheap solar garden lights. It is entirely possible for a home designer to come across a batch of these components that prove to be absolutely perfect for a particular design and naturally they will buy up as many of this given batch as possible. The downside is that because the components were manufactured “out of spec” there may never be the opportunity to purchase exact equivalent components ever again. I suspect, actually I know, that this is the source of the legendary tone of many boutique pedals and the reason why it can’t be exactly duplicated with modern components.
@rokku87
@rokku87 2 жыл бұрын
I'm not saying the original Klons don't have value. I'm not saying Bill Finnegan deserved to have his original design somewhat ripped off even though that was always inevitable. But people get so goddamn precious about these stupid pedals. There are some very good inexpensive accurate clones out there. Case in point the video I'm linking below. You can get this NUX klon clone for about $60 to $70 depending on where you order and how long you're willing to wait. kzbin.infoUgkxfuAuuo2m2mZ2t1FnfLTtAZg1Z79BUt8W
@DR-mp4gv
@DR-mp4gv Жыл бұрын
Ya ...diodes from an enchanted forest diode workshop run by a small band of leprechauns using forest fairy pixie germanium dust 😂
@matrixmodulator
@matrixmodulator Жыл бұрын
Really nice informative video. Realizing theses diodes are harder to get or more expensive now, I ran to my stash of parts and found about 20 germanium diodes i paid probably almost nothing a while ago :)
@howguitars2201
@howguitars2201 7 ай бұрын
Put a resistor in a telecaster from pickup hot to ground to remove highs n it made it the sound MUD thick bass. N almost muted but if I put a diode in front of restor so diode to resistor to ground signal came back with way less mud. And I don't know why a diode would cause that. Beleave it's a shoky diode removed from old computer boards. Any idea why a diode would do that. Thx.
@AKI111
@AKI111 Жыл бұрын
Fairly LARGE people... That's funny dude (30:05)
@evanurmy7273
@evanurmy7273 Жыл бұрын
I didn’t know that I had such an interest in diodes. You successfully made what should have been boring very interesting.
@TwoLastNames
@TwoLastNames Жыл бұрын
It’s always odd to me that people refer to the Klon as transparent. It is anything but. It rolls off the lows and bumps the mid. This sounds great, but is not transparent. As far as true transparency, the Timmy is much better.
@1pcfred
@1pcfred Жыл бұрын
Now do a deep dive on original vintage JRC4558s Although apparently Klons use trash TL072s.
@kentl7228
@kentl7228 Жыл бұрын
I hope the unicorn pube is found embedded in the circuit board. If you look at the enclosure, you can see the specks of angel dandruff. These parts are the essential magic of the Con Centaur.
@davidsheppard4850
@davidsheppard4850 7 ай бұрын
Great video Bro! I'm not sure how it took me 2 years to see it, but I'm glad I did. Nicely done!
@BritishBeachcomber
@BritishBeachcomber Жыл бұрын
Curve Tracing... The only way to accurately test the forward voltage of a diode is to use a *sweep current tester* to display a voltage/current graph for each device under test.
@danielcgomez
@danielcgomez 2 жыл бұрын
Fantastic Video! I enjoyed it a lot! ...I built 2 Centura kits that I purchased from Ceriatone, so I am quite familiar with the circuit, and now I know a lot more thanks to your video. Sub'd!
@graybenchelec
@graybenchelec 2 жыл бұрын
Thank you!
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