Defending against Gamepress' attack on Crushers

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[@DrSilvergun]

Want to talk about crushers a bit, but I have a minor nitpick first 13:28 16:21 At least skim the text before you conclude it doesn't mention something lol Onto crushers I don't disagree with most of your opinions on crushers in this video, but instead something you showed at the start and that I've seen stated many other times before. Crushers are good against arts damage This isn't true, Here's why There are two circumstances in which a high HP pool gives value. 1. Against high burst damage - Higher HP makes it easier to avoid one shots or operators dying between medic heals. 2. An Isolated Operator - When you need an operator deployed in a place you can't support and they must stay alive for a certain period of time, any other defensive stat may help too depending on the specific situation It is important to understand that the only HP diffrence that matters is between 0 and 1 For example in 9-19 you used quartz to tank mandra relying on her high HP pool to avoid one shots. High HP is very useful there because of the laser. Quartz works well there, however the only thing Quartz brings to that stall is her HP. There is no Res, no dodge, no healing or other defensive skill. I understand that you play with only free low level ops and you didn't have a better option than quartz with your operator levels, I'm just using 9-19 as an example of where High HP is useful Her HP pool gave value, but there are many other operators in arknights who have enough HP to not get bursted by Mandra AND have some defensive resource on top of it. Extra defensive resources are great for such stalls because they reduce the amount of medics you need, freeing up resources for the rest of the map. HP doesn't counter arts/true (for quartz those are the same thing) damage, High amount of healing is what counters it. (or spamming Fast redeploys but that's just another way to get HP back) That is why you're using 3 medics on Quartz What HP counters is one shots, and any operator that doesn't get one shot can replace an operator that just brings High HP.

[@BloopsArknights]

Thanks for the comment! Odd for a bigger cheese to find one of my vids but thanks for stopping by, means a lot. I can't argue with the nitpicks, streaming is streaming lol. Most of the fun from the stream was just being critical, so I was in a very critical mindset when it came to expectations, not gonna argue at all with your critique. As for le crushers, I do agree with you in that high HP is good for duelist scenarios and burst damage (I mentioned burst damage but I don't think I mentioned duelist scenarios on stream). However, I will disagree with you on one thing, I don't believe that the only hitpoint that matters is the last one, as Quartz' bufferable HP is one of her best assets. (I will explain this but I gotta say other stuff first for context) You bring up my 9-19 clear, which is awesome that you looked at another one of my videos, thank you, but I would say that my use of Quartz on 7-18 is probably the best usecase I have found for her. I use her to tank up to two Sarkaz Guerilla Fighters, as well as lanehold. She was able to tank about 3k worth of damage from the Guerilla Fighters, while also blocking both, something operators like Matoimaru or Estelle couldn't. It is sadly a matter of role compression, being a dreadnought/centurion hybrid in that scenario, but it is probably the best example I can point to to show off how her HP is really important for Arts survivability. People often point to RES as a better metric, as you said, but 10% more effective HP on an operator like Sideroca is less appealing than just doubling her HP with Quartz. It is funny that you bring up my 9-19 clear as a good example of Quartz usage, because I actually disagree with you. Sideroca is leagues better in that situation due to her self-heal. My original attempts at the stage used Sideroca's S1 alongside Gavial and Tuye's S1. It is much more effective as you only need 2 medics (since Sideroca heals about as much as a medic on her own). This could have saved me a slot by not including Lancet and replacing Lumen with Hibiscus. But I brought Quartz anyways because for the meme. I'll never say that Crushers are some weird hidden gem or one of the best subclasses in the game. Their poor ability to receive healing is a detriment to their usage, and Quartz' S2 just doesn't fit with the Archetype's identity very well. I just think they have a lot more merit than people assume. Also, another fun tech you can pull off with Crushers in regards to their high HP pool is that its really easy for them to access '50% or less HP threshold skills'. Their high HP pool gives them more HP than most other operators even at half-HP, meaning you can use that extra HP to buffer their survivability, while you pump the boosted effects of Gavial, Warfarin S1, and Tuye S2 into her. It essentially halves her max HP, but it's a fun little strat to use (hense why I used Tuye's S2 in my Mandra clear.) I appreciate the comment tho! An actual discussion as opposed to other crap I've received.

[@DrSilvergun]

@@BloopsArknights "Sideroca" I'm just following in the long standing arknights tradition of forgetting sideroca exists Let's say it's a 4D Chess move on my part to trick you into arguing my point for me :D "It is funny that you bring up my 9-19 clear as a good example of Quartz usage" No, I brought it up as an example of needing a certain HP threshold to not get oneshot. You then pointed out that Sideroca has enough HP aswell and even lets you use one less medic. She gives you RES and has her own healing thus reducing the need for external healing, thus giving you more value than you got out of just raw HP. "People often point to RES as a better metric, as you said, but 10% more effective HP on an operator like Sideroca is less appealing than just doubling her HP with Quartz." Despite Sideroca outperforming Quartz you state that the extra hp from Quartz is more "appealing" idk what you mean by appealing, unless you're talking about aesthetics, and you mean BIG HP = Cool in which case I agree As an uber tryhard for me it's just about picking the right operator You can fight an enemy that one shots Sideroca but Quartz can tank, and you can also fight an enemy that you can't outheal with Quartz, but Sideroca works. I don't like ranking operators , they're like tools for me. It would be like saying my crosshead screwdriver is better than my flathead screwdriver because I use it more often. That doesn't mean anything. I don't argue that Quartz isn't good vs arts because I think she's bad ( I DO think she is, but it's not relevant to this discussion) I argue because Quartz belongs in the anti-oneshot pile of screwdrivers, not the anti-arts pile PS. I ignored the point about effects under 50% hp, because I think it's beyond the scope of the topic I brought up, for the purposes of this discussion you either have enough hp to not get one shot or you don't.

[@BloopsArknights]

@@DrSilvergun Aye, fair. Compared to loads of other operators (including no gacha ops like Czerny) there are certainly better anti-arts tanks. Regardless, I do still feel it is a niche that she can perform well in, like I said with my 7-18 clear. In regards to RES, I was more just comparing stats, not specifically taking into account skills in this context. Like, 2k HP with 10 RES is less effective arts HP than 4k. But Sideroca having her healing is better (sometimes). I am not sure though why you think Mandra has the capability to 1-shot my operators? I agree that Quartz' high HP is better suited for nuke attacks, as I said in the vid, but Mandra is more sustained DPS rather than nuke damage. Like I said Sideroca is better for Mandra (unless you have good setup with ops like Warf). But I'm sure you were probably talking generally, not specifically about Mandra so whatever lol.

[@DrSilvergun]

@@BloopsArknights Oneshot is just me being lazy with my wording. I mean getting bursted by the laser. It's like patriot doesn't one shot you in phase 1 cause he actually does 4 damage instances instead of 1.

[@BloopsArknights]

Huh, so we agree then, hopefully. Cuz that is basically what I was referring to in regards to "HP buffering".

[@zomfgroflmao1337]

Btw, Warfarin (in my opinion the by far strongest healer in the game) also fits extremely well, because her S1 heals depending on the HP pool of the target (the reason she is basically mandatory for Surtr hospital strategies).

[@NikkiTheViolist]

I remember watching a video where someone did IS with Quartz to 'definitively prove how awful bad she is' and did pretty awful...and I remember watching the whole video in disbelief at how bad their placement and tactics were. Compounded even worse because just a day earlier I had done IS with my recently built Quartz. The difference, of course, is that they stuck Quartz in front of the blue box and tried to make her both tank and kill every enemy coming through, while I placed Quartz in front of the most dangerous enemies and the most dangerous red boxes to get her to clear them out.

[@BloopsArknights]

People just expect too much from Crushers. They aren't meant to carry, not meant to solo, they arent these weird god-operators. People have that expectation, use them carelessly, and screw up because of it. Then the operator is bad because they can't solo everything like [insert 6-star here]. I'll admit, Crushers ain't perfect, but you gotta use them while understanding their drawbacks, not with the expectation that they're the best ops in the game. I remember watching a Rewrite Kuma IS3 clead where he was trying out Quartz for the first time. And going in with moderate expectations and an understanding of her weaknesses, he both had fun and had success.

[@VayLienzi21]

Oh, you mean @DrSilvergun since he did do that.

[@S1e73n]

I am starting to think people don't work at understanding any unit. I love majority of the "shitty" classes Thank you for understanding some classes

[@kevinseraphin5456]

I've been playing since global launch and over the years I came to the conclusion that pmost peoples prefer being told what to do and what to think about a unit rather than spending any time trying to strategize themself... wich is pretty sad in a strategy game.

[@S1e73n]

agreed i seen videos where people are beating the main story with E0 lvl 1 units.. I love chain casters they are the back bone for aoe casters do to the lone stuns@@kevinseraphin5456

[@MeltCat_Amy]

I have both Quartz and Wind Chimes M6'd and I love them so much. I tend to default to using Wind Chimes just based on her higher stats, but they're both so much fun. In addition to having a morbillion hp to soak gigantic slow attacks and similarly high attack to breeze over enemy defense, these values being so high baseline also means you get huge benefits from external buffs to these values. I think you hit the nail on the head though with declaring that people's issues with crushers tend to come from simply thinking they're bad centurions rather than their own archetype.

[@MeltCat_Amy]

Oh god I forgot about how they described Wind Chimes S2. "Long windup" is clearly written by someone who has never pushed that button.

[@adamvegas5951]

As someone who liked leizi and Minimalist before either got their respective modules I’m all for people figuring out how to make their pocket picks work

[@sundoll3710]

based but isn’t minimalist already pretty nice without module I’d even say his module is pretty eh and is nowhere as godly as leizi’s

[@littlelw319]

@@sundoll3710 yes, a perk of being a "mid" unit. he is usable before his module and mech accord can also attack enemy that went out of their range(i don't know if this apply to all mech accord caster tho so cmiiw) is a plus.

[@sundoll3710]

@@littlelw319 minimalist's thing is that he relies on attacking really quickly to rack up his drone passive instead of locking on a unit that's why i said his mod was kinda eh, since he has a harder time racking up his passive(his module boosts the cap his drone's attack can go) it's not a big problem but the other mod(that increases the initial attack the drone has) would've made him more flexible

[@zomfgroflmao1337]

Btw, I was curious, and I made an effective HP list before and just putting in Hoederer (as the 6 star crusher with the highest stats) I found that he has more effective HP than Eunectus S3 (6249), Gravel S2 (6355) with whopping 6738 effective HP (not accounting for his inherent 18% shelter). The only character that crushes (tehe) all stats is Surtr S3 with an insane 8330 effective HP (with the obvious drawback that she loses hp %).

[@zyroberk]

no gavial 2 s3?

[@Rmotion9]

crushers aside, no one in their right mind farms 1-7 for ourundum that's left for the truly desperate people

[@sekischro5093]

i do because i have a stockpile ton of resources from playing solely maleknights

[@Hasel6858]

i have a second acc on CN dedicated only for it. yeah i like to collecting new ops in advanced 😅

[@EggyEggtoast]

*me casually processing 4000 cubes atm to break 6 digit orundum for the 3rd time in my 3 year ak career*

[@ReedSolutions]

150 red certificate make it more expensive than other 4 star. BRUH ethan and pudding has same price.

[@zyroberk]

at least ethan does something unique and useful

[@Vaslof]

aight I'll give Quartz a try, I liked her attack animations anyway when I got her once in IS3. That said, there are a lot of 4* ops that are useful relative to their rarity, but there's rarely reason to bring lower * ops unless you want to make things harder for yourself. at least in my experience playing on main vs on 4* and below only acc.

[@kokchewy4502]

I didn't use wind chimes but I've used Quartz. The problem with her imo that: 1) she has been released late in the game, so there are already plenty of options to deal with high def enemies 2) healing is a problem - high hp and no def/res often more a minus than a plus, she is always gonna get hit and take a lot of damage no matter what, especially with 1 range tile. She will require alot of constant healing unless you use warfarin and even then she alone can't outheal the damage unlike with defenders. There are plenty of 4 star defenders cuora/gummy/bubble that can take high damage and don't need as much upkeep. 3) she is not even much useful for beginners imo, in early stages there are more regular enemies than high def enemies like blobs which will shred her. In mid game high def enemies don't punch through armor so defender will take almost no damage and can stall forever. In late game high def enemies hit like a truck and she is not gonna take them out faster than they her. 4) I understand the use of 4 stars is limited in late game, but she is not useful as someone like cuora or cutter for example. And people already gonna have at chap 9 higher star operators that will completely outclass her in general content. I like her art but all in all she is just a big stat stick that doesn't do much in comparison to others. People have limited resources so spending on her is more of a gimmick rather than necessity at any point of the game. About gamepress, I think it's generally fine, I haven't seen them claiming to be the bible of arknights. Generally yea more atk better but not always, so I think it's fine to say. I get it you are passionate about crushers, I knew it from just seing the thumbnail, but let's be honest quartz is meh tier:)

[@BloopsArknights]

I don't want the impression to come across that I think that Crushers are some hidden gem that are holding people back or something. I don't think they're some uber busted archetype, I just think people often undersell what upsides they do actually have. But tbh, I just think they're fun to use. I may have come across as "passionate" in the video, but that is a culmination of like an hour of reading Gamepress' articles on stream, it was more me being in a critical mindset than me being passionate lol.

[@kokchewy4502]

@@BloopsArknights Well Hoederer will come to global and he is very strong, so not all crushers will be left behind :)

[@MrFoxie]

@@BloopsArknights Ooo, just found that 4 hour and 38 minute long gold mine, thanks XD

[@hamonthat5605]

i mean they're not wrong about crushers being a bit awkward as an archetype, but they're still pretty fun to use and absolutely haul ass if used right

[@alisahutako4518]

Lol~ although i love estelle the little ball of sugar... She can't survive when there's muliple Ranged Arts attackers in the vicinity even with a Medic nearby, while Quartz in the same rarity could. Now this isn't always the case and it depends on the situation, but people seem to forget about her high HP and massive damage. I mean sure you could just use spectre or Ptilopsis, but everyone doesn't always have those Operators or even build while the 4* are~

[@ViniciusAragao-vu4qi]

I thought the point of crushers is that they don't have defense

[@TheLaziestCouch]

i love quartz, but i also run Matoimaru, they have different use cases but yeah... well Gamepress has really bad commentary regardless, and i agree that s1 is her best skill, her hp is probably the greatest in my opinion over her attack, the fact that it is more than Kalts mon3ter is very notable, this allows for funny meme usage with bosses that attack allies based on hp which you may or may not encounter later on. As a 4 star player i would use quartz if Matoimaru or *cough* *cough* Cutter didn't exist, but for the most part Quartz is decent.

[@lixocontextualista]

Everytime my relics allow, I get either a crusher, a mystic caster or a flinger

[@KyuHikari]

Damn now that was awesome LMAO I do have to be honest myself, I actually wasn’t really sure how to best utilise crushers, I have found some good success with Wind Chimes S2 and honestly I really enjoy her S2 a ton she’s so fun, but I also tried using them similar to centurions You pointing out their thing was Damage Per Hit and not Damage Per Second was as eye-opening as finding out what sex for the first time I am a huge centurion fan I love all of them a ton, it makes sad that everything is compared back to them because they really aren’t as godlike as gamepress thinks they are, once you really try to push them to their limit you realise how their biggest drawback is them being too all-rounded to fit into any scenario, all of them have flaws and there are always better replacements for them if you really want to optimise your gameplay - but that’s pretty lame I gotta say, savage is awesome so I use her because she’s cool I was never a fan of gamepress, I was always disappointed to see their tier lists and reviews they make like yeah I get it it’s a gacha game yes our resources are limited and sanity is a precious resource - but come on there’s more positives and upsides than that, everything can serve a purpose everything has value, we just need to find it and encourage the people who are fans of these characters by teaching them how they can implement said characters into their strategies, not by telling them to use a different archetype altogether Loved the video it was so fun 🐊 👍

[@BloopsArknights]

Glad you liked it. Guess we both got our archetype biases lol. Sucks I chose the bad one.

[@KyuHikari]

@@BloopsArknights aww nah come on I wouldn’t call them bad, they just need some more thought to use and are very misunderstood Honestly, I adore abjurers so much and I do think that they all have the ability to serve genuine value, it’s just a bit more difficult to make work than just putting down a medic or to just use Saria, but I think everything can find a purpose in Arknights I can’t talk much about Quartz but I can say that I’m very pleased with what Wind Chimes has done for me, maybe with time people can come to understand and appreciate crushers as their own separate class like how chain casters and therapist medics all of a sudden became a lot more viable as more characters of that class were released!

[@BloopsArknights]

I mean if you really want a usecase for Abjurers, giving Crushers even more effective HP aint a bad usecase.

[@doomclasher9287]

Was already considering attempting to pull Hoederer, but now I'm convinced

[@Pomho1812]

Crushers are meant to deal with dangerous arts unit, that's why they have such huge HP pool. If you put them to deal with trash mobs of course they're gonna die quickly it ain't their role because of the 0 def

[@BloopsArknights]

Now that I think about it, I didnt mention Crushers as arts tanks once in the stream. I guess I just assumed its common knowledge at this point.

[@Pomho1812]

@@BloopsArknights Considering how many people sleeps on them or just use them in the worst way possible, I don't think it's common knowledge unfortunately 😭

[@salierihiyajo6596]

*Dr. Silvergun and SUPAH would like to know your location*

[@BloopsArknights]

*b r i n g i t o n* controversy grows the channel babyyyyy

[@strawberryshower1175]

I don't like Crushers, but I have to respect standing up for them. Well done.

[@Jacobmouse]

I stand for crushers.

[@Jacobmouse]

I forgot to say this but he so soft on 6 stars like hoolyak is terrible but still gave her a B. (She at least a low c)

[@echigokurogane8612]

Funny that there is a branch in the game that almost completely takes care of the major limiting factor of Crushers, but people think they are also bad despite all the ops in the branch being in good spots (Abjurer). Further more, with her upcoming module, Nine-Colored Deer takes Quartz’s 25% extra damage taken on S2 down to 1%, and they have the exact same skill cycles on their S2’s.

[@bigslump3622]

I feel like crushers do suffer from a bad rep but also, the fact that there are only 2 ops and no 6 star to ""fix"" the archetype (mountain and brawlers come to mind) I hope the release of hoedere and maybe a module can lessen this cause the gist I get is that crushers need more planning and effort put in than other ops and this goes against the more generalist approach some players have. And you're right comparing them to centurions is misinforming it's like saying trapmasters make poor snipers because they have low damage, but the entire kit is literally micromanagement and area control and not pure damage. I use robin for that purpose cause 2 seconds is a good staller on her s1 and s2 needs that map planning to be effective at all.

[@averagemythosenjoyer]

Something I thought of while watching this video was that if I ever had a dislike or a negative opinion about an Arknights class or operator, I could take the time to use them and actually analyze them, hopefully producing more accurate lists of strengths/weaknesses, but more importantly to better understand what the operator/class does and make my opinion either neutral or positive. Not saying that having a negative opinion is bad, just saying that sometimes opinions are baseless, and understanding things better leads to higher quality opinions that could be backed up by fact.

[@Hurricane047]

I think Wind Chimes' E2 art makes a strong point in favor of crushers

[@williamgeorge3111]

I like the idea of crushers, but I feel like their problem is that they don't have a solid identity. Functionally, they're just centurions with weird stat distributions. I think that crushers would be better if their class traits played more into the name. Give them all a way to mitigate high defense, like inflicting weakness and justifing it by saying that their massive weapons are strong enough to crush armor. Or maybe give them a better survival tool by making some of their attacks inflict tremble because their weighty blows make the ground shake under the enemy's feet and unbalance them. I dunno, just give them SOMETHING that makes them more unique. Still better than most brawlers though.

[@zyroberk]

this, crushers guards are lazy game design. they clearly could do something like this because THEY MADE EARTHSHAKERS ARE THING

[@nahimanaraoul5349]

Hoeder came back to prove them all wrong

[@zyroberk]

ah yes, the steroid-filled unit that needs so much stats to justify his subclass choice (i like hoederer but his kit clearly proves that crushers are fundamentally bad)

[@AletesCabot]

the problem with gamepress that is they have narrow minded point of view and stick to the "meta" or whatever they consider as meta. Many operators are more useful than Gamepress portraits them to be. And for sanity reason do not look at IS tier list coz some rasonings there are ridiculous. Like Chen pros is " Most popular Sniper Operator for the event." EDIT: What also doesnt help are highly popular youtubers that usually will tell you "oh this unit is trash, dont waste resource on them" and discourage other people from thinking about how to utilize certain operator kit where you dont really need to have god knows how high IQ to try different tactics than meta ones.

[@vulcanmemes9770]

It's just a matter of resource conservation for me as someone who started playing a year ago. I only have a finite amount of mats to invest at any given point, so why bother with very niche 5 star ops when a general 4 or 6 star van cover it better in the long run?

[@DrNero-ye8qu]

I want Wind Chimes and Quartz to crush me- I mean what?

[@peroniko7622]

a bit too late but, do you want Hoederer and Ulpianus to crush you as well?

[@Ninakoru]

I'm in the middle with this archetype, 0 def is too punishing, most of the incoming damage is physical, so is quite a drawback. High ATK but less speed to balance it out? and what balances out the 0 defense? extra HP that will be harder to heal? I cannot think any situation another archetype just does a better job.

[@Purplepentapus_]

To me, Quartz' S2 making her take more damage has always fallen under the same umbrella as Estelle not being healable and Matoimaru losing her DEF on their respective S2's, in that without such downsides the skills would be too powerful for their rarity. Since Quartz already has 0 DEF, though the only way to make her more fragile is to increase the damage she takes outright If they were all 5* ops, then the skills would probably have the same power level but just without any drawback.

[@mirukuuni_]

you re really entertaining

[@Ubolg]

Crushers are bad bc I dont care about Quartz, didn't get Wind chimes in gacha, and Hodrer banner is near limited headhunt.

[@kritzum]

5 star and below are just boring to use so idk

[@megusmith6258]

gamepress is great for a lot of game. not for arknight tho, so many thing wrong and outdated lol