Defending “cheaters” in competitive Pokemon

Life’s too short to do all that, ya know?
Twitter - BeatBratBraden
• Pokemon is way more Co...
• Competitive Pokémon is...

[@BeatBrat]

Okay this issue is clearly VERY hot and I probably should have been a bit more careful and thorough with my coverage in this video. My bad. If you don’t mind, let me rant a bit more. There are two big arguments that I see against genning Pokemon in the comments. One is “people shouldn’t be allowed to take shortcuts and should put in the work.” I truly do wish I could agree with this and I probably would have a year ago, but it’s just unrealistic and kind of misses the point in my opinion. I don’t really think “the work” should be pressing A for hours on end and spending hundreds of dollars on multiple games to build a single team. I think practicing this difficult competitive game, unraveling the complex meta and then beating your opponents in a battle of wits is what it should be about. Another argument I see is “it only takes 2-4 hours. The time commitment is so small that no one should even have to gen.” This also confuses me because if the time commitment really is that small, then why should it matter? Why do you look at these players and say they have an unfair advantage if the time saved was really that negligible? One thing that I find interesting after reading the comments is that we clearly all want the same thing. Everyone agrees that it’s ridiculous that people are genning Pokemon. Why would people use a third party software instead of the actual game? Where we disagree seems to be on who exactly is at fault. Many people seem to blame the players because they’re breaking the rules and that’s cheating. Makes sense. But others, including myself, believe that if the vast majority of players are openly hacking the game or support hacking the game, then maybe the issue is in the game itself and not the players. We all want Game Freak to give us a system that makes competitive team building easy and cost-free enough that no one would even consider cheating, but we clearly aren’t at that point yet. I don’t think we’ll get there by bowing to The Pokemon Company’s demands of our time and money. That’s why I say normalize hacked Pokemon. Not because I think that should actually be the standard. But because I think the more we all openly and loudly support genning Pokemon, the better chance we have at Game Freak actually listening to us in making the game more accessible. Once again, thank you to everyone who took time out of their day to watch my video. And a big thanks to everyone who commented their thoughts. I don’t know if you could tell, but talking about video games is kind of my favorite thing and I could do it all day, so having such an engaging comment section is everything to me lol Edit: Okay I feel like I also have to acknowledge the steroids comparison. I don’t really know if this holds up because steroids are made to give someone a physical advantage in a physical competition. Pokemon isn’t a physical game so it’s hard to see the correlation. In the context of genning Pokemon, we aren’t talking about people who lack the physical capability to compete, we’re talking about people who lack the resources. Others have compared genning Pokemon to proxies in card games. I don’t play card games, but apparently these are used in casual matches as alternatives to actually owning the cards yourself. These are normally banned in tournaments as well, since the players don’t actually own the cards. From an outsider’s perspective, yeah that kinda sounds like some bullshit. I’d probably be annoyed by proxy bans as well. Do you wanna play against someone’s mind, or someone’s wallet?

[@ScottobozoGD]

I think the core issue is what you hinted at at 8:13 VGC players have been cheating for so long, they can't fathom playing the game without it anymore. Now that the game is more accessible than ever, if the rules are finally enforced completely, cheating might start to die down. Or maybe I'm overly optimistic. At their core, Pokemon games are about capturing, training, and battling Pokemon. It only makes sense for the Video Game Championship to have elements of all 3, even if they're not all glamorized.

[@BeatBrat]

@@ScottobozoGDI hear that. Most people are creatures of habit, so if they’ve been genning for years and years, then they’re probably gonna continue doing it even if they might not have to. I wish I had the same optimism, but I think we need a lot more quality of life improvements before we can realistically expect the majority of players to be on board.

[@dreamlanderjoel8162]

I think another flaw in the steroids comparison is that there isn't much danger to using hacked Pokémon besides potential disqualification, whereas using steroids can have very serious physical and mental side effects. Letting people hack their Pokémon teams (or implementing a Pokémon Showdown-esque teambuilder so that people no longer feel the need to hack) only makes the game more accessible, whereas permitting steroid usage in sports encourages competitors to put their health at risk in order to have a better chance at winning.

[@espurrseyes42]

"I don’t really know if this holds up because steroids are made to give someone a physical advantage in a physical competition." Hacking gives you an advantage in the battling competition. Not in the battle itself, but getting the preparation for that battle done quickly so time can be better spent on other aspects of the game. Pretty sure steroids can be used in a similar manner to get into "legal" physical condition like making a "legal" PKMN. And since I'm on that section, yes, the guy that uses unofficial software to make his team is more of a cheater than the guy that has his friend do all the hardwork (or their Twitch followers). Because communicating with other players (namely trading) is an... no, THE intended feature of Pokemon games while the Battle Simulator not made Pokemon's creators isn't a feature in the game AT ALL. Same with glitches. They're part of the game whether they were intended to or not. The hacking software isn't. "I don’t think we’ll get there by bowing to The Pokemon Company’s demands of our time and money." You're also not going to get there by going around the rules. You want that Showdown system? Leave VGC altogether and stick to Smogon and Showdown. Do what you said the Smash community did right and host your own tournaments separate from the official ones.

[@rpjoca4644]

can you pin that please?

[@CuppaGi]

You forgot a very important part. Trading. Several players were caught with hacked Pokemon that they traded for YEARS ago, like back in Gen4 and 5. And they brought those Pokemon to Worlds multiple times. Trading them up through Bank and HOME. And then they find out that the Pokemon that they've been using for close to or even OVER A DECADE was hacked. They played the game as it was intended, traded for Pokemon they needed but didn't have and then trained those Pokemon up themselves. But because the person who originally traded it to them back in 2011 used a gameshark or whatever, they got DQ'd. TPCi even acknowledged this and said for players to not use traded Pokemon for this very reason. They said NOT TO USE A KEY FEATURE THE GAMES WERE CREATED AROUND IN THE FIRST PLACE. Which is also indirectly saying "If you want to compete, you have to buy every single game so you can have access to ever Pokemon you could ever need without having to trade." The fact that they have a hack check capable of finding these hacked Pokemon when the games themselves cannot is also a red flag. Pokemon HOME and SV allows for the trading of these hacked Pokemon, but if they had a system that could identify hacked Pokemon this whole time, why wasn't it used? I doubt anyone would have been mad had they discovered their 2011 Cresselia was hacked in had it happened long before the season actually started. "Oh shit, my old Cress was hacked... Guess I should catch a new one." Simple. But no, they waited until WORLDS to pounce this on everyone. Now people who spent thousands to travel to Japan and compete are finding out, on stage in some cases, that their Pokemon is hacked.

[@sub0mc49]

I think it just gets them more money to let those people compete and dq

[@karlols2321]

@@sub0mc49 it was like 30 players who got disqualified and they are the biggest media franchise I really doubt they cared that much for like 100 bucks it cost to enter the tournament

[@CabbageMuncher13]

And if they gave themselves more time to make the new games, they could just put every Pokemon in them.

[@NoHiro-qc4dv]

Gee, they had no idea the shiny 5 IV with a 0 in attack cresselia with just the right nature they got traded to them back when getting a mon like that would actually take an absurd amount of effort was hacked? Come on, they knew they had a hacked mon 😂

[@gustavoschiller6852]

It's the player's fault for not verifyng the legitimacy of his Pokemon

[@paz8723]

The intended way to play competitive pokemon is to drain all your time and energy to maybe have a decent team so you can get screwed by the guy who paid 90 dollars for Urshifu

[@DjPrimeVideos]

It's more than 90 since you need home and pray to arceus your nso hasn't run out yet

[@AsherTheModder]

Its NOT $90 for Urshifu tho its $90 for an entire fun game with 2 excellent story dlc that also give you every gen 1 to 8 legendary , the ultra beasts and a keldeo except for having to pick zacian or zamazenta. And you should have them anyway if you competited during swsh .

[@DjPrimeVideos]

@@AsherTheModder that's assuming you started in Gen 8 to begin with. But that's the issue, the current game just assumes you started prior and it puts everyone who started with Gen 9 at a power disadvantage. Sure..paradox pokemon and ruin legends are there but your stuck with the stagnant team building from last series while others have more to build with.

[@AsherTheModder]

@@DjPrimeVideos So buy swsh + dlc or trade for the mons since the dawn of the franchise that was the spirit of the game to battle trade train and catch pokemon and the sames true for competitive . its stated explicitly in the rules genning is NOT allowed so breaking the rules then getting caught and throwing a tantrum is what a two year old would do. if someones gonna break the rules they should accept the consequences . Period.

[@l.t.c3847]

@@AsherTheModderwhy should you have to accept rules that are rediculous? To compete from scratch in Gen 9 and get the best Pokémon for the format you have to play 3 entire games all the way through, spend $180 on them, plus home plus spend the time grinding for those specific mons. No other competitive video game makes you do anywhere NEAR this ammount or tedium to build a team. And if you want to edit a set or test something else? More grinding that requires new copies of that mon or burning hard to acquire resources on it. Gamefreak’s stance is rediculous and unreasonable, they should just make an official “genning” tool that lets you build custom Pokémon you can only use online or something.

[@nupsol7552]

I think the optimal solution for this "problem" is that the you sign your team at a tournament and they just gibe you the pokemon. This would fix all problems.

[@BeatBrat]

Facts. For some reason I used to assume that this was already a thing because I couldn’t fathom every player actually building an entire team.

[@pyrogriffin]

And a reward for making it that far should be you get to keep that team, with special ribbons / titles.

[@demi-femme4821]

Game Freak: "But making them bring their own teams lets us make money off of it!"

[@TheKaosKilla16]

Rental pokemon irl

[@Alex1jag]

let's put your proposal to the test. say for easy number handling you had a tournament of 10 people, that means the tournament would have to have 60 Pokémon n had to give out, out of those 60 say four players want the same Pokémon but all of them want them for different roles (i.e. different ev iv sets) with different moves, different items and different tera types. it would mean every tournament would have to account for all those things which is frankly near impossible. the other route to take would be to have rental Pokémon ala Pokémon Stadium in which case they would have to provide the list to players with enough time in advance to players to begin crafting teams within the limitations of the Pokémon and their moves.

[@tiagocardosom]

They could just create a "creative mode" type of thing where you could create your own pokemon and only could use them to battle in a Pokemon Stadium-ish kinda way

[@mars.unreal]

So pokemon showdown?

[@tiagocardosom]

@@mars.unreal yeah but in the game itself.

[@reapingsalvation7353]

that sounds like it would make it too easy for us and too hard for them to program - lets face it theyd find a way to make it grindy and dumb

[@sothesalamilidwontfit]

it is not hard for them to program. they literally already have user-made rental teams

[@HungerGamesFan00]

hell, they could airgap it, make it so the vgc teams cant be circulated into the mainline sphere and "devalue" the "real thing"

[@SuperSonic68]

I have a potential solution to some of these issues. Again. Potentially. Hear me out: Pokémon gets Namco Bandai to release a brand new... Pokémon Stadium game. Their Pokémon Snap reboot did well, so, let's give Stadium a shot. Like Battle Revolution before it, it is simply a battle simulator. No story, no routes, no world, just battlin'. Of course, the development would take awhile, giving all those Pokémon fresh new animations as well as adding back previously-cut moves and gimmicks, but it's an investment I'll get to later. All Pokémon are included. When a new generation debuts, you don't need a whole new Stadium game, you just need to update what you've got, like Pokémon Home and Pokémon Go. All Pokémon are animated beautifully, just like in BR. All GIMMICKS are included from previous generations. All gimmicks are placed into "Cups." Alola Cup, Galar Cup, Paldea Cup, etc. Maybe even an "Anything Goes" Cup so players can do what the Pokémon Journeys anime did where we saw Megas and Dynamaxes play off of one another. Now, here's the kicker: Just like Stadium before it, this new game would have a RENTAL SYSTEM, but this time you can customize every aspect of the Pokémon's stats, nature, etc. just like in Showdown. But, when you use a Rental Pokémon online, the Pokémon has a little badge somewhere on its body indicating that it's a rental. It doesn't gatekeep players from playing competitively right away, but it does at least show who trained their Pokémon "the real way" and who just wants to jump in and play online. This gives the competitive scene an officially-sanctioned battle simulator that gives players the freedom to experiment and play online in various formats, but it ALSO gives the Pokémon company a much PRETTIER game to put on their competitive tournament circuits, driving hype and sales.

[@aahhhhhhhhhhhhh]

That game WILL sell. Pokemon needs to see this... Also they can make an achievement based shiny "hunting" method. Ranking high in major stuff will grant you the shiny option of a specific pokemon so you can still flex, but it also shows off your skill as you actually did something to get it. Idk

[@justadummy8076]

I think this would go so hard if they also included a Player character with customisation options. Gamefreak loves money, so they’d probably be more open to the idea of this game if they could monetise Player customisation options. They could even update the games with newer gen Pokémon with paid DLC instead of having to make a whole new game. Don’t get me wrong, I’m personally against over-monetisation in gaming, but a game like this wouldn’t exist if Gamefreak didn’t see huge monetary benefits, because games like this would completely divert purely competitive players against buying the newer games, financially it makes way more sense for Gamefreak to just keep doing what they’re already doing. It doesn’t matter to Gamefreak if obtaining competitive Pokémon is difficult, because that means you have to buy more of their games, DLCs, consoles, Pokémon Home subscriptions, Nintendo Online subscription, etc… the only way they’d see potential in this game is if they could monetise the hell out of it.

[@dinocharlie1]

Another whole half of the issue you didn't even mention is the money. For example to play competitively in SCARLET/VIOLET, if you wanted Usrshifu, not only do you need S/V, you also need Sword/Shield ($60) and the DLC ($30). Urshifu alone costs almost $100. Not to mention the extra time you need legendary hunting in those games if you don't want to buy a DS and hunt on the older games. Heatran was used in the finals this year. Aside from BDSP (another $60) or Arceus (also $60)which require more spending, you have Crown Tundra's horrible farming method (doing full dungeons until you even find the legendary you want, each run a set of 4 raids, then once you finally find it, soft resetting and doing those 4 raids over again until you get the stats you want because you can only catch it once per save file. If you want any non-Sinnoh legendary, that's what you HAVE to do, or buy a used DS (anywhere from $20-200, who knows if it'll work) and/or 3DS (about $100-200), plus the games themselves, which authentic copies (which is what we want because that's why we're here in the first place) can run you $20 to even over $200 for just one game. Even on this video, the links have a thumbnail saying $510 and I honestly don't even think it's clickbait.

[@helfyr9656]

@@highfivegon9922 1. Pokemon is big. General statements coming from this large community can't be pinned on the competitive scene. 2. The dex cut is here, and it didn't fix the issue.

[@highfivegon9922]

@helfyr9656 1. I've been in the competitive scene for years now and would argue that a vast majority didn't like it. 2. What issue? Some Pokemon are always gonna be more viable then others, however that doesn't save them from having multiple and obtainable (!) counters to them. Do they shift the meta? Yes, but so what? Since you're probably playing VGC yourself, I most likely won't have to tell you, that your best check for opposing Urshifu won't be your own Urshifu.

[@helfyr9656]

@@highfivegon9922 The issue in question is the one of top tiers being requiring older games to get. My interpretation of your reply was that you meant the dex cut was supposed to fix that, but then people complained too much so they added stuff back. Was I mistaken in thinking so?

[@BoomBoom-ym5oy]

so many grown men babies wah wah

[@bestaround3323]

​@@BoomBoom-ym5oyWow, way to add absolutely nothing to the conversation.

[@KingNidoYT]

I think they need to release a battle-based game in the spirit of Stadium and Battle Revolution, with team builders built into it. If they want to have some connection to Home to make it so you can use that Pokemon, sure. They could have terastal, gigantamax, mega’s, all that available in one game for fans to use in their own fun. But then they could allow so many different formats of play in the game when the Pokemon Company host tournaments. They would more or less be taking the concept of Smogon and putting it into their own 3D game, with hopefully great animations. And I would be here praying to Arceus for a Metronome Mode in said game!

[@theschnozzler]

Metronome free-for-alls?

[@svenbtb]

It wouldn't even need to be a stand-alone game (although it could be as well), it could just be a Stadium/Battle Revolution Mode, where you can just build whatever team you want, save your favorite teams/pokemon, and could then use those teams within the special battle mode (which could even be set up so you don't have access to those Pokemon outside of the special battle mode). Then that battle mode could be used for official VGC stuff. To me, that seems like such a simple solution that would avoid people having to "cheat" while still making it easy and approachable to create teams for competitive play.

[@Saroku1000]

No, that would destroy the point of the main games: to collect and train Pokémon to use them for battles.

[@Party0productions0]

This is what I've been saying. Give us another Stadium like game where you actually invest in giving the Pokemon battle animations, have all the pokemon available to play, and (if you really want to make Pokemon a real competitive game) the ability to edit them in all aspects to the modern game out at the time. I won't lose sleep over them not bringing back old gimmicks but like the first 2 would solve the 2 biggest issues currently plaguing pokemon in general.

[@ILiekFishes]

"hopefully great animations" whatever drugs you're taking to have the slightest amount of faith in game freak, I want them.

[@walaceandrade4046]

I find it hilarious that one of Pokemons biggest features have to be avoided at all costs if you planning on competing. Trading. In game theres no checks to genned mons. If you ever get attached to a mon you received and brought it to a tournament, chances are, you are gonna be eliminated. Most traded mons over the internet are genned.

[@baxterbruce9827]

Except for random level 1s, those can frequently be breedjects from people trying to breed a shiny and hoping for something interesting through Wonder/Surprise Trade I know I've sent out at least a thousand

[@moebino2685]

yeah it's a shame that hackers ruin trading for people :(

[@Furnabulax1]

there was a Poketuber who said that he got a hacked Chien Pao from his one friend and had to replace it with an actually legal one the morning before Worlds began. he only knew it was hacked bc the date it was obtained in game was the same day he got it in the trade.

[@qvad8078]

i think that there are programs to check if pokemon is legal, i remember that am a blisy showed one in one of his videos

[@the_exegete]

@@qvad8078 There are such apps. And they're used for hacking! You can't even use them without making yourself a dirty cheating hacker. It's a catch-22.

[@Eroil]

Couldn't agree more with this video, the one thing you haven't really mentioned is that often after you finish up your team it's rare that you keep it the same without making any changes, players often change their entire team structure multiple times while testing which can require a whole new team of Pokemon to be trained. That is why players like to use Showdown for testing but the ladder usually doesn't have the same conditions as the in -game tournaments which is why retraining can often happen.

[@randomprotag9329]

plus showdown is third party so it shouldn't be a needed factor into VGC format to make it not completely terrible to test teams.

[@swift7842]

@@randomprotag9329 Pokémon generators are a third party software that drastically decreases the time spent needing to create/test a competitive team. An IV calculator is a third party software that drastically decreases the time spent needing to create/test a competitive team Showdown is a third party software that drastically decreases the time spent needing to create/test a competitive team. If you’re going to disallow one, why not the other?

[@JustSamGuyOkay]

@@swift7842 The argument isn't that any of those shouldn't be allowed, its that none of them should be needed

[@swift7842]

@@JustSamGuyOkay I totally agree that there should be ways to se/do these things in game. My argument is more so that. if people are going to argue that Genning should be banned bc it’s a third party software. Then that sets the precedent that all third party software that streamlines the process of team building should therefore also be banned. And how completely ridiculous that would be. Sry if it wasn’t very clear 😓

[@zachariahritter8913]

​@@JustSamGuyOkay😢

[@durrellbennett947]

The irony of The Pokémon Company banning players from competing after they spent HUNDREDS OF HOURS practicing… But couldn’t be bothered to spend the extra time to give paying customers an actually optimized Scarlet and Violet is ridiculous. The nerve.

[@bakes1324]

The chess analogy isn’t the best analogy simply because it would take less time than building a team for vgc

[@snintendog]

As a wood worker that is sadly correct. It take maybe only a full DAY to make a Chess set then another to Finish it with a nice finish, more than half of that time is just waiting for it to dry. 60 Full hours is INSANITY for any project.

[@sarge3109]

It is but you can make most teams in an hour now. The teams that might take longer are trick room teams but that’s because of no 0iv caps. If it’s taking people 60 hours to make a team in SV they are sleeping for 59 of those hours lol

[@snintendog]

@@sarge3109Incorrect a single team as shown by blissy in current gen still is a 40 hour time sink. 6.5 hours average Per Mon. this is being very genorous and not going for all shinies much less perfect IVs and taking the minimum IVs viable and bottle capping.

[@sarge3109]

@snintendog you can’t say it’s incorrect when I can hop on my game and do it, outside of a tr team. The problem with his videos is that they only apply to new players who are starting out today. So if you have been playing the game for months or are a veteran of the series they don’t apply to you because it should take you a lot less time. And of course it will take new players hours to get into competitive. Tbh many should be spending time learning the game before attempting something like rank. I still see people hoping into battles with mons that don’t have evs or ivs.

[@sarge3109]

Not to mention if you are that new of a player, not only should you be learning the game, but I would spend this season building up your resources and teams/mons. If you look at people who have been playing the game for months, the people who don’t gen Atleast, many have shards, vitamins, ev reducing berries, feathers almost maxed out. With a good amount of cash and materials for tms.

[@Sizzyl]

6:10 there's also the use case where certain pokemon only have some moves from SPECIFIC event distributions where they were only shiny, so if you don't run a shiny, that move and any sets that rely on it can be ruled out.

[@miimiiandco]

Moves are no longer carried over as of Scarlet and Violet. And those sorts of event moves aren't allowed in VGC anyway, at least for Sw/Sh.

[@Sizzyl]

@@miimiiandco good to know, those are some good rules/changes, I'm not deep into the comp scene myself, was just relaying what I've heard.

[@svenbtb]

The solution really seems to be "There needs to be an official version of Smogon/Showdown/Stadium/Battle Revolution/Whatever" as either a stand alone game or just a a mode in every main line game from now on. If it's a mode in a mainline game, then they could keep your teams in that separate from normal single player/casual online matches, so those aren't affected. Just let there be a mode where you can build whatever team you want, save those teams, and then battle in a special battle mode. They could even add in different features like "Official VGC rules" mode or a free for all mode or little cup, whatever. I don't feel like that would be super difficult to implement.

[@snintendog]

Just let us set all flags post game and it will be fine. Fine tuning a pokemon after training it should have been the standard instead of just shoving drugs down its throat to do that.

[@456jm]

It should be a mode in a mainline game.

[@RadeticDaniel]

you could even argue a mix between stadium preset teams and battle tower challenges from later gameboy titles would be a valid match or even have a mode you can hatch from any species and only level up through online ranked battles as a classification system nowadays there is no cartridge memory limitations to impose a single save file or a limit to how many pokemon you can have in one

[@RadeticDaniel]

@@snintendog fair point with stats redistribution, it is so common in RPGs that it's surprising it hasn't got to pokemon yet... HM moves that were permanent in gen1 already could be deleted by the move remover NPC in gen2 nicknames always could be changed by a special NPC somewhere on the game since red/green have one game freaking npc reset and redistribute points doesn't seem out of place at all

[@petelee2477]

Turning pokemon home into a battle simulator is an idea.

[@quantumtwinspark283]

Let's also point out: If you started your playthrough and caught a second LeChonk and wonder traded it away for a fresh level 1 Sprigatito and spent the entire playthrough levelling it up and adoring it to use in a tournament as a strong but not quite perfect Meowscarada, you would get disqualified because the person who wonder traded it to you generated it and forgot 1 value.

[@NolChannel1]

... No? Level 1 wonder trades are legitimate breedjects.

[@quantumtwinspark283]

@@NolChannel1 Usually, yes. This example happened to be an unfortunate exception.

[@FectoElfilin]

Skill issue, I just wouldn't have let it happen to me.

[@ultifur]

you are responsible for knowing the ins and outs of your team

[@quantumtwinspark283]

@@ultifur The only way to know that to the level of a hack-check is by using third party software. By hacking.

[@irondragonplayz7678]

The entire cheating problem can for real just be summarized with, "I ain't doing all that." As a player who built their own teams for a tournament, I really don't care if someone just doesn't have hours to just sit down and grind the hell out of tera raids. If they outplay me it's not because their pokemon are cheated it's because they simply played better. I just hope TPC makes a pokemon showdown of their own so that building teams wouldn't be so daunting to people.

[@KwehKwehKweh]

still waiting for pokemon stadium 3 where you can build your own pokemon

[@jamirconnelly2369]

Yeah, like getting certain IV spreads, or even specific EV spreads is getting hard lol. I’m glad i had some fully EV trained Pokémon in my Pokémon home. I’ve just been playing with the movesets. But the fact that i have to build so many Pokémon as an adult is tiresome

[@Saroku1000]

The game is not about battling alone, its also about getting those Pokémon trough training or trading. Thats how Pokémon works. Its not smash bros where you can chose your fighter. Most players just seem ignorant about how the game they are playing actually works. And someone disrespecting deliberatrly the rules of a tornament really cant complain that he got banned for it. Battling isnt the only aspect important in a tornament. Its sportsmanship and respecting the tornaments rules. Which most vgc participants seem to lack.

[@NaokiKurogra]

@@Saroku1000 Flat out incorrect. Battling should be the most important aspect, with the getting of pokemon streamlined as much as possible and absolutely none of them hidden behind a paywall of any sort beyond buying the base game. It should only take at most 30m to fully get a team ready if you've already cleared the main story.

[@irondragonplayz7678]

@@Saroku1000 Well you're right there is more to the game than just battling. Teambuilding is arguably the most important part of a tournament. However, when the Teambuilding is so long it makes it a lot harder to actually just play the damn game. Personally, I would also love it if everyone followed the rules of the game (Like I said I build my own team), but people do not have the time for it. A pokemon showdown/stadium simulator would solve this problem as there isn't any justifiable reason to cheat then. It would genuinely be the absolute same as if you had a large friend group/discord server to get the pokemon for you. There's a reason why smogon tournaments just use showdown most of the time rather than playing in game. You still need the two core aspects of Teambuilding and battling, while just lessening the time required to get into the meat and potatoes of competitive pokemon.

[@Dreykopff]

It gets even funnier when you realize that Mystery Gift event mons are basically genned too (just "officially") and games commonly feature NPCs with impossible mons (gen 2 Lance Aero Rock Slide, many underleveled evolutions, unreleased Hidden Abilities in Battle Towers, stuff like that). Imagine holding your players to higher standards than your game itself. We need a team builder / tournament mode where either everything is unlocked from the start or you can at least unlock all the things by, well, battling.

[@bobman717]

Yeah the difference is that everybody with the game had access to those

[@ihategoogle905]

@@bobman717 everyone has access to save file editors

[@OolongSnakeArt]

Competive scene has always been seperate in my mind, over the actual core game play. When stadium made 'rental teams' and then rental teams introduced into the other generations, its clear they're all just codes and graphics and where they come from- mean nothing. Having ease of access to jump into end game PVP means more players, and more matches.

[@aaronlaughter6471]

You know, when cheating comes to mind in a competitive sense, i thank wall hacks and the like. Not giving yourself the tools to even compete.

[@Brontux]

I think the problem could be easily solved by the developers: Basically make anything ranked PvP its own mode where you can make your own Pokemon (or use your own "legit" team if you want). The pokemon you make in the ranked PvP mode CANT be taken outside of this mode at all. This means we dont need hackers at all. Anything that's part of the base game where you fight NPC only uses pokemon you've raised yourself. Thic includes battle tree/tower etc against NPCs.

[@RadeticDaniel]

Actually having a perpetual battle tower where you can traing any pokemon from level 5 would be a viable grinder for competitive in my opinion. The mutual exclusion concept is needed indeed

[@chrisgaming8846]

that or just throw IVs away and make EVs easy to increase and reduce with a simple key item. its that simple.

[@lachepro6860]

and you could use your own Pokemon if you want

[@natlus_]

@@chrisgaming8846IVs are part of the lore, they’re horrible for vgc (except for when you want 0ivs)

[@TheShalestorm]

from a business standpoint, there is no incentive for TPC to do literally anything, except make examples of genning. That is the sad reality of it all. Like in the example of soemthing like world of warcraft pvp. a game that hinges on its players aquiring gear with different stats, or set bonus - Sure it would be far more accessible to have all gear aquired right away so everyone has equal footing, but on a business standpoint for them to be compeitive in your current environment, they have to spend money and time playing your game. The same is true for pokemon games, there is no incentive for lower barrier of entry - people DO circumvent this with genning, but there are already plenty who dont do this and those willing to shill out the money to get older games, dlcs, spend more and more time playing their games, to be able to have any viability of playing the competitive side within your game. It freely artifically inflates there numbers, sales, and playtimes. So why would they inject lower barrier of entry? from a business standpoint. For Public reception? well, that clearly has not been their concern in A LONG TIME.

[@Triistar22]

No, that chess analogy was PERFECT. That DEFINITELY explains how the whole "legitimate" process of creating a competitive team goes in my head as well.

[@RadeticDaniel]

Like the old Mitch Hedberg joke... "So, you are an amazing cook! But can you farm?"

[@NiseGen-13]

Chess analogy was perfect to you? So if bring my own chess pieces, my King can move the entire board and has the ability Wonder Guard for protection?

[@RadeticDaniel]

@@NiseGen-13 than that wouldn't be a king... your example implies giving skills that are not possible to a certain "character", that is cheating. However I never saw a chess tournament in which you had to carve your pieces and board to be allowed in the competition. After all it os a strategy challenge between battling opponents, not an artesanal challenge for carpenters. A restaurant doesn't need its own farm to be a Michelin Star restaurant either and you wouldn't expect chefs in the fields seed the grounds.

[@NiseGen-13]

@@RadeticDaniel My example implies that chess is a poor analogy. If my Milotic can be played either supportive or offensive why can't the King moves like the Queen? If pokemon is like chess then my king should not stick to one role and it should have multiple roles base on how I play it. Restaurant with Michelin star is a rating base and purely base on a person subjective rating hence there is no skill involve.

[@staringcorgi6475]

You can be great at chess if you know how to but not Pokemon

[@Srelathon]

It's not just a time commitment but also a commitment of hundreds of dollars for all of the games/DLC's that are required to acquire many of the Pokémon that are good right now yourself

[@MaxBakerTV]

I know it will never happen but I wish Nintendo would just make Pokemon Stadium 3 and literally just make it Showdown.

[@MrSonicHedgehog]

Technically Stadium 3 already exist: Battle Revolution

[@DjPrimeVideos]

iF yOu DoNt HaVe TiMe To BrEeD tHeN dOnT pLaY

[@d.n.3652]

To be fair, breeding is easier than ever. It’s a bit slow in the beginning. But once you’ve got a bunch of good IV pokemon, it goes by exponentially faster

[@chickenman461]

@@d.n.3652The problem comes in for one time event mons, like legendaries or the bloodmoon ursaluna, especially if it turns out that alternate sets with potentially different IVs are a better option for the team as a whole

[@d.n.3652]

@@chickenman461 in older generations, you would have to soft reset, which took forever. I can understand why you would hack, but I wouldn’t risk it for a big tournament. But now you don’t even need to hack. We have mints that change natures, ability capabilities to change abilities, and hyper training to fix the IV's. EV training is now easier because Vitamins can max out and IV instead of capping at 100

[@chickenman461]

@@d.n.3652well in the case of Blood Moon, it’s more so about minimizing IVs, cuz that mon really likes having 0 speed IVs. The only option for min IVs is to soft reset and pray Kinda feels that a massive part of the genning issue comes down to either people wanting a showdown like competitive space, or having much more open and greater control over competitive stats like IVs thru something like an IV remover or reseter, or a bottle cap that raises IVs by 1

[@zackc799]

Also another thing to point out is that they changed the rules just before this event so I’m sure a bunch of people who would’ve had legit pokemon were forced to gen cos they didn’t have the time to construct a new team for the new format

[@toxic0470]

No they didnt, regulation D was announced on the first of June, HOME dropped the day before, it was put onto switch ladder on the first of July and the last major VGC tournament (NAIC) finished a day later. Worlds started on the 11th of August.

[@seanotdrummer]

@@toxic0470so yeah, *just* before the event. world’s has never been played on the second format of a new generation in recent generations.

[@toxic0470]

@@seanotdrummer how is a month and a half before it starts just before?

[@seanotdrummer]

@@toxic0470 tell me you’ve never learned a format, built and tested several teams before without telling me

[@toxic0470]

@@seanotdrummer laughs in built and tested 5 teams over the course of the same month and a half I've mentioned on SV. I can send the pokepaste to all of them if you don't believe me

[@Blastosie_Offical]

Mewtwo is an in-universe hacked Pokémon

[@Mekkkah]

This is a well-made vid with the right points made. I agree 99% with the script and have very little to add to that. Making competitive Pokémon teams should be as easy as it is on Pokémon Showdown, and penalizing/DQing people who skip the grind makes no sense on a practical level. I do think this argument would've been better off with more focus on the current era and the QoL aspects Pokémon has right now. The emphasis on previous generations with that "60 hour to make a gen 5 team video", the talk about shiny Pokemon giving an advantage, and general use of footage from previous gens gives the video a bit of a dated feel because none of these is relevant anymore. Nowadays it's not 60 hours, it's probably like 2-3 hours for a team. The same arguments still apply - and I agree with those! - but the scale is very different. If I had to write this vid I'd put more emphasis on the ridiculous hoops to jump through for 0 Speed IVs and especially Tera types. But that's just a nitpick I wanted off my chest. This is really just a natural consequence of the real quality of life problems in Pokémon. The emphasis on "training" (doing boring repetitive grinding) will probably never go away. Sometimes I hear people praise the "increased quality of life" of S/V, but the truth of the matter is that it's still bad, it just used to be really really really really really really bad, and every generation they remove one "really". Maybe.

[@Mswordx23]

My take on this is simple: If you decide to play in a competition don't want to follow the rules, don't be shocked you get punished for it. If you think they're way of doing it is BS then don't participate in it.

[@Otherface]

It is ome thing being banned from following the rules. Is another when the rules are *OUTRIGHT BULLSHIT.*

[@ivy663]

My take as a long time fan since i can remember is that as long as the Pokémon have legal sets from moves to ability who cares the learning curve is alr so large the extra time for grinding “normal Pokémon” is crazy for people with other things going on in their lives is crazy…

[@randomprotag9329]

applying RPG mechanics to the competitive scene is the main issue causer. even when all the mons are available with out any extra games grinding is something that no player really wants. the new players are less likely to get into completive if there's a long grind before the first game and hardcore and general players want to do battles. a simple solution is have a showdown team creator for the competive scene and casual main game playthough is seperate and not impacting the competive scene.

[@RFDN0]

The showdown method isn't going to happen. It goes completely against the marketing the company uses. The best likely option is a single method to view and use use the in-game items to adjust pokemon to viability. Ideally, it should be one in-game currency, but I am doubtful that would ever happen. If you have the different resources, then those ideally would be used first. Otherwise, you need to pay the "shop" price for the effective items making the changes. Pokedollars being the only cost would make it significantly easier and this could be a post game only feature.

[@Saroku1000]

Just because you dont like to do it doesnt mean that this is a justification to break the rules. You may just not participate in a tornament if you dont agree with the rules and how the game works. The rpg is about catching and training your Pokémon to use them in battles. Thats the point of Pokémon. Pokémon is not smash bros where you can just chose your fighter instantly.

[@RadeticDaniel]

@@Saroku1000 you know what else was there since gen1? Gameshark And if you know anything about how it worked on Gameboy, Gameboy Pocket and Gameboy Color, you will know they had to make some seriusly deliberate choices in coding and memory mapping to even be possible to use it. Let alone in so many ways as it was. Catching was there from the core concept, yes. Battling was a trend from V-pets (that eventually became digimon) and serves for story pacing and emotional investment, like the original prince of persia does introducing fights after half the game is cleared. Training is only there because of battles, actually pushed back on female players for a few generations back when monsters and fights were boy's stuff and they keep experimenting with other modes like contests introduced in gen3. In fact, training through grinding was such a downer by principle that items like Exp.Share, Exp.All and similars have been around since gen1. If the organizer says no gen, those are the rules because they define it and players should follow. But don't try to excuse them for mixing the optional grind we can do during a story telling game with the competitive scene, because that is bad game design for the PvP eSports game that is every VGC event.

[@gab4198]

@@Saroku1000 The image they sell it to believe in your pokemon and train them, the reality is mass genocide of wild life, steling money from kids and massive breeding just to get a individual pokemon with diferent color. Just because you like the rules and to be nintendo's lapdog, don't take the right from people to complain about a problem in a series they love to play, everyone of them did play the main story at least once to completion, but some people draw the line when you need to just do repetitive grind for something and spending more money, urshifu is not possible to catch on the newer games and it is only one per save file of an older game in which you have to buy a dlc to get him, if you don't like generating pokemons by a tool even if they are possible to catch in the game or be transfered, at least you should defend that pokemon not catchable in the newer gen shouldn't be legal in the tournament if they can't be reproduced and given to more players, also event pokemon should be banned because they too are generated outside of the in game tools the players have and don't let me get started on event pokemons with exclusive moves.

[@miimiiandco]

@@Saroku1000 The thing is, I don't think those rules do anything productive outside of trying to keep the fantasy of being a "Pokemon Trainer" alive.

[@Shadnasiku]

Idea: in a DLC and new games, have an NBC that you can "rent" pokemon for competitive play. You would be able to change all stats in a menu and you dont keep the pokemon. This keeps the balance of playing competitive vs all other aspects of the game. Rented pokemon would only be used in competitive and not in the main game.

[@omerzubair39]

All Gamefreak needs to do is to not paywall legendaries/powerful Pokemon, and add an IV Trainer NPC to reduce IVs to 0.

[@Pufflizard]

They'll never do the former since they're not going to say no to more money.

[@omerzubair39]

@@Pufflizard true, but one could dream xD

[@internetguy7319]

Even if you do this 95% of people will still gen if it takes over an hour. These people don't want any grinding at all.

[@omerzubair39]

@@internetguy7319 people don't want to grind because the grind is a slow process. If changing tera types didn't take 50 and instead took like 10 it would be grind. The 0 IV trainer would make it easier too. Personally, I think Scarlet/Violet are doing pretty good with easy competitive training. Besides those, pay walling legendary and powerful pokemon are also a problem.

[@quinnloraine2303]

Literally, people have been asking for a 0 IV mechanic for generations. It would save everyone so much time and it would be so easy to implement. If they can make a EV resetting Lady in Sword and Shield, they can make a 0 IV NPC in Scarlet and Violet.

[@ultimateumbreon3826]

stunned by that clip of aron being used back in 2013. i used to use FEAR type strats in doubles for fun in gens 7 and 8 but didnt know that anyone got far like that before, and so long ago!

[@Cat-nr2jm]

Having to spend over 600 dollars and wasting 100s of hours is not conducive to a healthy competitive game when all that effort is poured into one team that could become unviable as you’re in the process of making it.

[@truecasual2176]

Hmm ive built around 7 competetive teams in scarlet and violet without having to spend 600 dollars. Also i maybe spend 100 hours for all teams combined( nearly all full shiny except legendarys). I dont know how you train your teams but the only thing that actually takes time is to reset for 0ivs (if you need 2 ivs to be 0 that is a legitimate problem on non breedable pokemon) and tera shards other than that it takes virtually no time to train pokemon in scarlet violet. Even ability patches are plentiful.

[@Cat-nr2jm]

@@truecasual2176 the money comes from having to buy previous Pokémon games to get mons some of which cost upwards of 90$ per individual Pokémon

[@keo549]

​@@Cat-nr2jmas an add-on to your comment, time is money. Those 100 hours could be used other ways for other profits as well

[@sayainwilly240]

Well let’s say your playing smash melee in the top 10 you have to get a $200+ controller just to compete and if your controller breaks you have a backup which is another $200+ honestly vgc is easily more accessible then smash melee.

[@Cat-nr2jm]

@@sayainwilly240 that’s cool but it’s not super relevant considering how spending over 500 dollars for any game to compete at the highest level is an absurd money sink. Also, in Pokémon some Pokémon have event only moves from discontinued events so sometimes it’s literally impossible to get a Pokémon you need to fill out your team without genning. Melee doesn’t have those same issues. You don’t have to spend 90 dollars on a character to use it you just need the game, controllers are just add ons and yes you may need very good ones to compete at the top but they aren’t necessary to be very very good at the game.

[@justadummy8076]

One argument I keep seeing is that Gamefreak has made making a competitive team so much easier in SV that genning Pokémon doesn’t make any sense. Oh really? If it’s so easy then how does genning the Pokémon give you any sort of competitive advantage over making a legal team? And what do you mean easy, easy compared to what? They always conveniently forget to include the fact that it’s easier to make a comp team in newer games compared to OLDER GAMES, not competitive esport games in general, but older Pokémon games specifically! Take COD for example, I don’t need to play COD Ghosts so I can obtain a specific gun with perfect damage, accuracy, mobility, etc stats to be competitive in COD Black Ops 6. I don’t need to buy the perfect Chess set with ultralight pieces so that I save as much time as possible during my turn. No other competitive game other than sports like Formula 1 require this much investment for a low 5-figure prize pool at WORLD’S!!! EVEN IF YOU WIN A WORLD CHAMPIONSHIP THE PRIZE POOL IS SO LOW IT WILL BARELY COVER A FRACTION OF THE TRAVEL COSTS REQUIRED TO COMPETE IN ENOUGH TOURNAMENTS TO EVEN QUALIFY FOR WORLD’S!!! The juice is simply not worth the squeeze.

[@twistedvtuber9894]

Honestly, adding a rusty bottle cap (which just sets an IV to 0), would all but remove the necessity of cheating entirely. 0 atk and 0 speed are really important tiers to hit, but they are the only things left that can only be hit by pure luck or soft resetting enough times. Everything else can easily be circumvented via bottle caps, mints, vitamins, feathers, etc. Even Tera shards are way less grindy now thanks to the Tera shard charm you get for completing the Kitakami dex

[@BeezerGutlr]

It’s locked behind dlc though, so anybody without the dlc can just go f themselves.

[@MythX_StoryTeller]

I dont think it should be an issue. I mean, I suppose they may treat it like a taboo and forbidden thing bc well, theyd have to compete from within the fan base. I could see an economy of ppl selling hackedmons inflating if they started to ignore hacks. I dont think thatd ever topple their monopoly on the product but it could change the way that ppl interact w the game. Indoctrination into the culture of a product breeds loyalty to that product. However, simply, it shouldnt be an issue. As long as theyre not allowing obviously impossible Pkmn, as you described, imo, shouldnt disqualify players. They made the journey and commitment; it is exactly as you call it, "gatekeeping". I feel sry for those players you mentioned- thatd be incredibly disheartening for an innocent fan. Suppose the "cheat" was obtained via Wonder Trade or some such? Its easier to manage and save face to exclude hacks, reverting to the "KISS" method of "keep it simple, stupid".

[@ferociousfeind8538]

Selling hacked pokemon if they were allowed in tournaments? What? You can already generate them for free

[@GameMusic4All]

"I see now that the circumstances of one's birth are irrelevant; it is what you do with the gift of life that determines who you are." - Mewtwo Banned! - Pokemon Company

[@phelancastro4879]

I love how funny the idea that in all competitions the competitors need to have made all of their equipment themselves otherwise their cheating. Like Shaq’s tanning the hide of a pig and sewing it together, so they have a ball. Lance Armstrong is harvesting rubber from Brazil because it’s the highest quality and needed to compete at a top level. A ten year old gets disqualified for not making his own Piano for his competition.

[@mukatte4755]

I have an argument I kinda like using: Let's admit to build a team for a tournament, you need: 1. To theorycraft the team in your head 2. To grind for the team 3. To playtest before confirming your final team Let's say we remove the 1st step: it just becomes a random battle tournaments, might be fun but too much rng to be fully competitive cuz yk, it's a freaking RANDOM battle. So this step is important If we remove the 3rd step, your team would have too much flaws you didn't think about before and you would discover them too late to do anything about it. So this step is important If we remove the 2nd step... it just becomes Pokémon Showdown yk and PS works just fine so...

[@scottcollins7198]

I agree wholeheartedly with this video and all points listed, but to add an addendum, especially to the classist comment: Yes. It literally is classist. To fully ensure that NONE of your Mons are hacked, the ONLY way to prepare "legally" is to build the team yourself from scratch. Therefore, to be fully prepared for any meta game/counter in the current generation, having security that none of your Mons are hacked, you have to have: Scarlet, Violet, the DLC, Legends Arceus, Sword, Shield, BD, SP, a Switch, and Pokemon Home. That is an ENORMOUS price tag to put on being a fully-prepared competitive player, for any game. The barrier to entry is so much astronomically higher than it's ever been, and I think that the format switch right before Worlds was a slap in the face to any player who had been grinding all season, but didn't have the time or resources to dedicate to all of the games listed above. It's just wild to me that ANYONE can be mad at the players who were DQ'd in this instance, rather than understanding/empathetic. It's a terrible look for TPC and the community.

[@Nazberrypie]

Genning pokémons has been a thing for years now, and it's seen as okay-ish by many people. Fact is, I believe mosts of the pokemons used in the last VGC tournament were genned No surprises here. People that got caught red handed and then got mad were people that "poorly" genned their team. It is totally possible to generate pokemon indistiguinshable from legal ones. (If it wasn't, there wouldn't be enough competitors to call it a championship.) If you can't cheat cleverly enough, get caught and suffer the consequences that you knew might happen, and then have the audacity to complain about it, I personally can't comprehend you. Then again, If somehow pokemon games could detect all genned pokemon I'm pretty sure that more than half of the competitors would be disqualified, that would just kill the championship. That's why despite knowing people cheats, official tournaments usually did not enforce this rule too much. But they can't really say "it's okay to generate pokemon" either, as it breaks the whole point of a pokemon game. In my opinion, the pokemon company tries to follow a philosophy more similar to a TCG tournament than a competitive fighting game. Games such as smash bros have no gatekeep, since all fighters for each copies of the games are exactly the same. Skill is the only difference. But Pokemon is no fighting game. To take back the chess analogy, carving your own chess pieces before the tournament, such that the quality of the piece you make would somehow affect the movements available to it would be outrageous. But Pokemon is no chess game. Genning is a bit of a Pandora box for Pokemon games, where 90% of things are based on luck and grinding. What's the point of poke balls, TM's, vitamins, shinies, EXP, breeding, encounters, EV train, Mints, bottle caps, tera shards, when you can just generate a pokemon with little to no effort? Genning remove the purpose of a pokemon game core, which is luck and grinding. People are interested in a balanced competitive "fighting game", basically pokemon showdown. But that's ignoring a huge part of what a pokemon game is. I'd think the pokemon company thinks this way and keeps the farming and luck in pokemon games, even if it is not competitive, *Because that's what Pokemon games always were.*

[@NaokiKurogra]

Understandable idea, but the problem is that they shouldn't have tried to build an e-sport out of it then. Because trying to make a competition out of it, means you have to be willing to take hits on the flavor to allow for more accessibility, which farming and luck are the two big hurdles for in Pokemon. Until they put a genning system in the games themselves, there's never going to be a lessened amount of it, because asking someone to invest an entire week of prep time to even test a team(if not using an outside tool like Showdown to test before you start on the team), is a ridiculous assumption. Which is also why they'll likely never try and hit sims, since that would prevent people from realistically testing their teams.

[@greyscaleadaven]

One thing I will say on this whole hot button issue that inevitably comes up every year after worlds is that I'm glad we have gotten so many more features to help with competitive in recent gens. A lot of people are quick to discredit new gen games, but one thing they've done very well is make things far more accessible for competitive then it used to be by a landslide. Gens 4 and 5 were my first games, and I was only really able to break into making fully competitive teams ingame by gen 6 because of how awful it used to be to breed for IVs and EV train Pokemon. Now we have hyper training and at least one easy method to EV train since gen 6 (super training/hordes, SOS chaining for both IVs and EVs, and very accessible vitamins in gen 9). Additionally, there are small touches like Mirror Herb for egg moves and relearning moves without a tutor in Gen 9 that make it so much easier to manage resource wise. Compared to how it used to be, it's much better now. That being said, does that mean something that is fundamentally still time-consuming and money draining is a good way of encouraging people to play competitive? Not really, it's why most people like me who don't always have time to visualize a team manually or just want to play competitively do so on Showdown. if they want to draw the competitive players back ingame permanently, they can do so by expanding the rental teams and making them fully customizable with EVs, IVs, levels, and items. Also, idk why they make Pokemon legal in VGC that are ported from other games anyways? You should be able to use them on casual ladders or Battle Spot but IMO the 'official competitive format' should be restricted to the Pokemon on cartridge. It's a) an easier accessibility fix, they're happy to restrict a lot of Pokemon from the format so I don't see why this change couldn't be made, and b) it doesn't paywall competitive just for a handful of key pokemon. People wouldn't gen for VGC tourneys nearly as often if they either could use Pokemon from one game cartridge alone or access Rentals that they could fully customize IMO. In gen 9, as long as you've caught a pokemon, you can turn it into a competitive pokemon (outside of niche interactions like min attack or speed that they could make a 0 IV item for easily). That would solve so many problems the community is having with this issue without being too much work at all.

[@BeezerGutlr]

Jesus, couldn’t have said it better myself, they really have just shat the bed in terms of allowing transfer only Pokémon in competitive. It is straight up pay to win.

[@Dizzy-Luc]

Also, people saying “adults playing just to stomp 12 year olds” VGCs have age limits first of all. Second? It’s like no one remembers “Tobias” from the anime. Almost everyone says he cheated (I mean he used a DARKRAI in a tournament) and beat Ash who is a 10 year old. Of course you’re gonna have adults curb stomping 12 year olds. Anyone that knows how the stats work vs a casual player OF COURSE is gonna curb stomp the casual player.

[@AlwaysEquals50]

Those 0.5 seconds when a shiny animation plays is when Wolfe Glick plans the next 1000 plays in his head.

[@goombrosaustrosity4277]

I'd compare using hacked teams to using steroids in a sport like baseball. By using a hacked team you get to skip the 60 hours and start practicing matches. Similar to getting to skip time and energy in a weight room and getting more time to play the actual game. By hacking you gain an advantage over people who don't and do need to spend that time commitment. I'd much rather a system to craft your pokemon from scratch instantly. No one would benefit from hacking.

[@jauume]

Its exactly the opposite, allowing people to hack levels the playing field, because otherwise the only people that would play are the ones with the time or money to build teams, which is not a lot of people. Its completely different to steroids, you will NEVER be able to be stronger than a steroid user, it gives you a huge advantage, but a player that builds teams naturally can absolutely beat a player that gens pokemon, because what you skip with genning is building your chess pieces, but once you start the match, only the best and luckiest player will win

[@goombrosaustrosity4277]

@@jauumeThe chess piece building is a horrible comparison. Chess pieces all have the exact same rules for ever game of chess. Theres also only 6 different types. Compare that to pokemon with thousands of different pokemon builds and stats setups. Its an impossible task to build every pokemon with every stat setup and thats what gunning offers. No one who plays legitimately has that amount of power at thier hands giving them a huge disasteroids. They get to skip the time in the weight room a huge time saver. Comparable to somthing like steriods.

[@ihategoogle905]

@@goombrosaustrosity4277 no one is breeding pokemon to test them out, they use showdown or hack them then breed their final team

[@alessandro1885]

​@@goombrosaustrosity4277there Is no problem there cuz nobody plays legit, Hope that helps. In any Major event, 98% of the players have their Mons either genned, modified or copied with 3rd party softwares and those Who don't are generally either new players Who haven't discovered genning and mindless verlisify fans, either way, they are not gonna do well in the tournament regardless of cheating.

[@damieng7696]

If you don't want to put in the hours to build your team the right way just don't start and don't compete? I think it's not fair to the people really putting in the hours to build from scratch and get to worlds, I understand both sides perfectly and game freak should give us more item/control over iv's etc (for legendaries) so people wouldn't have to hack the poke's in their team.(but game freak want you to spend money to buy previous games, etc i know) Where is the magic of catching and training your pokemon if you can create it just with one click? I know people will disagree but that is what is pokemon to me personally, love to watch a team i build from scratch no cheat and feel good about it knowing its legit.

[@swift7842]

“Oh but they just want you to build a connection to the Pokémon” The power of friendship quite literally doesn’t apply to competitive. Breeding for 3+ hours for a single team member isn’t going to give you an emotional attachment, it’s going to cause emotional disconnection. I’m not “training” my Pokémon. I’m giving it drugs and cd’s. If it wasn’t for Pokémon showdown, I wouldn’t even be using 70% of them. All that without even mentioning that it’s considered completely fine to have other people make the team for you. There is literally no valid argument against hacking.

[@BeatBrat]

Preach.

[@Wepunka]

The argument is that you get banned because they don't want you to hack.

[@swift7842]

Pokémon generators are a third party software that drastically decreases the time spent needing to create/test a competitive team. An IV calculator is a third party software that drastically decreases the time spent needing to create/test a competitive team Showdown is a third party software that drastically decreases the time spent needing to create/test a competitive team. If you’re going to disallow one, why not the other.

[@swift7842]

@@Wepunka that’s a statement not an argument. You don’t have to (attempt to) defend everything the pkm company does just because you like the games/Pokémon. There’s nothing wrong with simply saying you don’t really mind a decision that others don’t like.

[@nickchabot1302]

The only “emotional attachment” in competitive was the move return/frustration which were removed with gen 8 if I’m not mistaken. A normal type move with the damage of earthquake that is only obtained through great love/hatred was removed for some reason.

[@afvpegknight]

Can we forget genning for a second and talk about the extreme travel and lodging expenses attending each regional (and if you want a chance at worlds you pretty much NEED to go to every regional) incurs? It also is very time consuming pretty much making anyone with a 40 hour a week job unable to compete. Only the top players will have travel costs paid for, for the vast majority of people youre easily looking at 7000 to an 8000 dollar expense every year to play vgc with travel and lodging costs.

[@Mrperson0]

"It also is very time consuming pretty much making anyone with a 40 hour a week job unable to compete. " This is what gets me. It's crazy to think that people who have normal jobs should be able to participate in these events. If you want to delve into the competitive scene, you need to devote more of your life to it, which includes training Pokemon, or for the TCG, paying a premium for the cards.

[@moki3997]

w/e your opinion is, the fact that none of them won and got DQ is never going to change.

[@unraveki]

I'd say whether they were genned or not doesn't change how good the player is, for example one person who was DQ'd on 4-2, but at the same time genning the Pokemon they use there is like bringing a fake ID to take a real driving test, two separate things but an issue nevertheless.

[@karuptedninja2000]

Being mad about genned for vgc pokemon is the same as banning someone in a body building competition for taking creatine

[@OnlyNeedJuan]

People who hate genning genuinely don't understand the concept that time is precious. Wasting away hundreds of hours just to get a few teams going, and that's without testing them out and finding out "oh this doesn't work, guess I gotta grind for an enamorous now which takes multiple hours per ATTEMPT" and thinking this is ok and promotes a healthy competitive scene instead of just promoting an unhealthy gatekept competitive scene? Genuinely the most obnoxious people that likely don't even play pokemon competitive to begin with.

[@afvpegknight]

Its up to the pokemon companys vgc judges to enforce rules against genning. Not youtube comment sections. If you want to gen and go to a vgc tournament do so at your own risk.

[@maizjsj]

The pokemon company's vgc judges are bitches lmao

[@aidyy10]

Oh, and in the newer formats you can use Pokemon from different generations, which requires you to *buy the older games*, just so you can get some strong Pokemon. This means if you want to make a competitive team without hacking, you need to not only invest time and effort, but also money. In short, competitive Pokemon is pay-to-win.

[@superbr0ws015]

Pokemon Go and Pokemon Home/Bank, as well as trading say hi.... Apart from the premium Home subscription and the exoense of the base game, it's practically free...

[@GalaxEGame]

@@superbr0ws015 Genned mons in trading say hi back

[@miimiiandco]

@@superbr0ws015 Is there an easy way to get Urshifu from Pokemon Go right now? And, the I believe it's advised to not use traded Pokemon because you can't truly confirm whether they're legitimate or not. It would probably be fine for ladder play, but it probably won't be fine for tournaments now their hack check is stronger.

[@DoggoDoesStuff1]

​@superbr0ws015 Inb4 you get DQ'd because the pokemon you traded for was genned.

[@Hexie094]

is it a hot take to say the skill in comp battles is the ingame decisions you make in a battle and resetting for an hour to get a pokemon with the right stats isn't exactly skill expressive? not to mention how banning genning makes games pay to win

[@KingMaximus]

Mom…BeatBrat posted!

[@gangygang]

using gen 5 as examples of how difficult it is to make comp teamps now is rediculous, Ivs unless you need them less than max for very niche are easily accessable in V/S (the current games) via bottle caps, natures are the same with the nature leaves and the ivs are so easy in v/s it's a joke to bring up with how cheep vitamines are in v/s! sure in the past it was real hard and maybe is it was 2010 id agree with this video! but saying its gate keeping when the pokemon games have made it so easy that a baby can do it in the current format is rediculous!

[@LunaTulpa]

I'm surprised you didn't mention the monetary cost aspect of this, you need both Sc/Vi, legends, Sw/Sh+DLC, and probably some older game for specific pokemon. im a blissy totaled it all at $510 USD, absolutely absurd.

[@neobahumuth6]

competitive gaming is expensive shocker!

[@LunaTulpa]

@@neobahumuth6 ....in what other competitive game do you need to buy multiple games in the same franchise in order to be on the same baseline power as other competitors?

[@neobahumuth6]

@@LunaTulpa ever heard of card games?

[@LunaTulpa]

@@neobahumuth6i never thought to consider card games because it's so much of a different genre and type of game in itself, and not even being a video game (except hearthstone ig, but needing to spend money is implicit there too) got any other examples to defend this absurd concept?

[@neobahumuth6]

@@LunaTulpathey aren't different at all in competitive, alot of thoughts follow the same rule and team building is essentially deck building down to the core, the staples and the extras and down to budget competitive sets/team. As for other examples, I'm not familiar with fighting games competitive, but I'm honestly not sure ppl like the fact of having to buy DLC characters either if I have to be honest. Honestly instead of making this a pro-genning argument wouldn't it be better to band up so that competitive isn't a huge expense to partecipe instead?

[@nahtatrolI]

Honestly though, this entire problem originates from the extremely greedy practice of Pokemon Exclusivity. Had they included a way to acquire every (or at least every competitively viable) Mon in gen 9, none of this would be an issue.

[@HoseB932]

Honestly, If I had to choose between spending hours grinding for: Needlessly expensive Battle Point Moves and Items, perfect IV’s, the best egg, Nature. While also having ONE time TMs, a tedious EV training system, and some genuinely paywalled ways of getting some mons. (Yes, needing D/P/Pt to get Dialga for example, if you wanna use it for Black/White is dumb. A very specific example, but Pokemon has had this issue for a while.) Or just hacking in my team and using them for practice, getting multiple times the required amounts of BP, and having a blast playing. Then yeah, I would gen in my pkmn too.

[@proudspark3853]

From my perspective, I've played every single main series pokemon game. The series has gotten easier and easier with each generation in terms of building a competitive team. Trading pokemon with others is always off putting to me because of how many people hack. The only trades I do are pokemon with other languages to help with shiny hunts. I don't struggle to commit myself to the game as I love almost every aspect of them all. But at the end of the day someone, hacking to get their perfect team instead of spending the time to train them isn't going to affect my fun. It's not like the perfect pokemon is all that hard to get in the new games anymore anyways. IVs can be hyper trained. EVs are just 53 vitamins, abilities are just switched with a capsule or patch. Even shiny hunting is easily done being like 1 in 500 with the proper preparation. The most difficult thing is catching them. But that's just me rambling.

[@Gotsyn]

1) Trading pokemon, a core feature of the main games since RBY, is not even recommended if you want to play tournaments cuz you might get a hacked pokemon with legit stats 2) How do you train to lower Speed IVs or Attack IVs? You can't. Why do we even have IVs in the first place? 3) Also, why can't we just respec our EVs exactly the way we want, just like in Dark Souls and Elden Ring? In these games, you gain 1 point per level to distribute how you want, no need to beat 1000 rattatas or grind tedious raid battles with a pen and paper. 4) How do you get unattainable Pokemon from other games without having to spend loads of money in such a shit economy? Why not have a way to capture those Pokemons in the game you bought? That'd be like having to buy Demon Souls to get the Moonlight Greatsword and somehow transfer it to Elden Ring to use it in that game Also it is not true that they have made EV training easier over the years since apparently they've gotten rid of good quality of life features, because GameFreak is known for cutting new features without fleshing them out. You'd think by now we'd have a built-in, upgraded Pokemon Stadium to build teams, play with stats and movesets, but Pokemon has just kept things archaic, primitive, tedious, unfun, gatekeeping and overall a waste of time and money. And the icing on the cake is that they just pump out the same cheap-looking games year after year for fans to gobble up.

[@Mrperson0]

@@Gotsyn 2) While I agree that there should be a "rusty bottle cap" to lower those IVs, having IVs in the first place is what makes a Pokemon unique. There's more to Pokemon than the competitive scene where people want things to be normalized. 3) People can respec EVs. There are EV reducing berries that have been around since Emerald, and there are feathers that give a point to an EV. 4) By that logic, people shouldn't need to spend thousands of dollars to travel to these regionals, nationals, and worlds in the first place. Yes, it is true that EV training has been made easier. 26 vitamins will give 252 EVs to a stat. You have feathers which give 1 EV to a stat, and you have EV reducing berries for ages.

[@Gotsyn]

@@Mrperson0 2) People don't want unique pokemon, people want optimized pokemon. This isn't an anime. 3) In many games, respecing requires one item and you are free to look at your stats, lower and increase them just the way you want them, without cooking a single berry or farming feathers for hours. In Showdown this takes less than a second. 4) That brings up an interesting point: should players even be obligated to travel to Japan to compete for a game that can be played online? Not just for Pokemon, but for any game.

[@ddgnp1057]

Completely homogeneous team compositions (CHALK etc.) are a natural consequence of being able to instantly generate any Pokemon you want. I don't think GF would have drastically nerfed so many Pokemon over the generations if it weren't so easy to do this. I think this is why you see far more team variety in the lower age brackets, because they're just kids having fun with the game removed from these hyper competitive online communities. It goes against the rules and the spirit of the game to gen and in Japan it's flat out illegal apparently. You're using an outside program to ultimately gain a time and prep advantage over your opponent. It's not acceptable anywhere else and I don''t think it''s acceptable here. Cheating is abhorrent until everyone's doing it apparently. As incompetent as GF are on the technical side of things I think the competitive playerbase is its own worst enemy and doesn't have a right to complain if their favourite mons get nerfed. I don't buy the argument of it being too prohibitive to create a competitive ready team when as we saw last gen even when you can get any mon to a competitive standard in 15 minutes people will still cheat. We'll take any advantage we can, that's just how we are.

[@tyranitararmaldo]

Agree with all of this. Other esports are laughing at the pokemon scene due to this sort of behavior. Nowhere would this kind of cheating would be seen as acceptable, but somehow in pokemon, it's ok...? Even if people disagree with the rules, the rules are there and to play in the competition you have to abide by them. We can't as players change the rules, so that's the hand we're given. Nobody is sitting down forcing competitive pokemon players to keep playing if they don't like it.

[@ddgnp1057]

@@tyranitararmaldo And now it's even easier when you can literally just buy Bottle Caps. No excuse in my book.

I think there are 4 possible solutions for this issue: 1. Separate tournaments by "Pokedex" types (ie. Regional uses only base game Pokemon, National allows you to use things from previous games and DLC). 2. Create a "Rental" mode like in Showdown. The downside being, of course, their team wouldn't receive any special Ribbon. 3. Have a new game mode where you can register a team and have it have some changes that only apply for this mode. For example, it gives your Pokemon access to any move, ability, and IVs / EVs distribution it can have, but it would need to be registered to your Nintendo/Pokemon account for the current season and wouldn't affect the main game at all. 4. Have even more customization available (Rusty Bottle Cap reducing IVs to 0, cheaper vitamins and mints, lowering required Tera Shards from 50 to 10 (Seriously, who thought that was a good amount!?), and showing the exact stats for your Pokemon like EVs and IVs)

[@YoshiTheOreo]

When the free method gives you an equal yet faster experience, why pay for the poor experience that gives only a moral satisfaction?

[@herring888]

People forget that pokemon are cppyrighted media genning pokemon is technicaly copyright infringement and in japan where this tournament took place can land you in prison

[@ChickenxBoneless]

I'm not into the competive scene but I like watching the videos. I honestly thought for the official competitive tournaments organized by Nintendo they used a battle arena and generated pokemon anyways. As long as there aren't any illegal moves or crazy unacheivable stats on the pokemon it should be good to go. You just give them the EV/IV spreads, nature, and moves you've used for your team and now you leave it up to strategy and rng for the actual winner.

[@borjaarellano9966]

you know,the constant mention of tera shards got me wondering what would the discussion be if it was done in gen 8? where the tera shards didn't exist cause it seems that tera shards is the most big problem i see mentioned in videos about genning,so it just got me asking what would the discussion be in gen 8? or in a gen where the tera type isn't being considered? or what if to change a pokemon tera type it was only 10 shards? so many questions all generate by something just recently introduced

[@borjaarellano9966]

also,there's a duplication glitch and perfect ditto glitch? never knew them,just got the item normally and i got a lucky ditto from a rando who wonder traded it

[@DjPrimeVideos]

Then there would be no real argument because dynamax candies are easier to acquire.

[@BigDan-el1ci]

As an outsider looking in, I can see the importance of not having an easy way to get the best mons. That's part of what makes it competitive.

[@d.n.3652]

As a person who has breeded pokemon for years. Breeding gets exponentially easier. It’s slow in the beginning. But once you have a bunch of pokemon with good IVs, and then transfer them to later generations. I think breeding is fun. It feels like I worked for something hard.

[@ihategoogle905]

its not about easy its just wasted time for no reason

[@PhazonEnder]

Prior to watching your video I had my own opinion on the subject, but I wanted to let you know that thanks your video I'm 100% convinced that players who utilize external tools to generate their should/deserve to be banned from competing in the VGC. I agreed with you at the start, the time investment required is insane, but what convinced me that I was wrong was that you utilized glitches to duplicate items and you complained that it was still too difficult for you. You don't want an expedited or streamlined method to create a competitively viable team, what you want is for the Pokemon VGC to function in the exact same way as Pokemon Showdown, no time investment required.

[@devvn4671]

thankyou for this. thats what they all want i dont get it

[@lostgem8225]

Yes thats what literally everyone wants, because competitive pokemon battling is a mental game not a game about grinding over 200 hours for a perfect iv shiny fucking kyogre (yes that one comes from personal experience-) Competitive pokemon battles players want to be able to play against competitive pokemon battles, not against a wallet and 60 hours of mashing the a button and the soft reset combo

[@the_exegete]

Pokemon Showdown is good though.

[@FiniteMan1933]

The only reason I ever got into competitive pokemon was because of radical red(a romhack) and I still replay it to this day because of constant updates and quality of life updates making competitive teams easier to make. I tried playing B2W2 and I honestly hated how many times I had to catch the same Pokémon if I wanted a specific nature or hidden ability. Genuinely can't imagine building a competitive team without "cheating"

[@chrollo_book3596]

I feel you're over exaggerating the team building process. Takes me about an hour and a half to fully ev/iv train a single pokemon that's including all moves and correct levels

[@SackVegasAnime]

Nintendo should adopt Pokémon showdown, the best place for competitive battling, as everyone is on a fair playing ground.

[@nope-63]

there is also the fact that the wonder trade pool is flooded with hacked mons and for a new player who gets one and doesnt know then goes to a tourney and gets a dq from a hacked mon check even if they did grind the rest of thier team, its not just the people who intentionally hack mons... nintendo needs to fix thier game before they dq people for hacked mons imo

[@NikoQerry]

Imagine Magnus Carlsen being disqualified because he didnt hand-craft his own chess pieces and board.

[@cibinomin6540]

i dont think you understand how rules work

[@NikoQerry]

​@@cibinomin6540 Mate... Have you watched the video? The point both I and the video made is that Pokemon battles are like chess. You need to be extremely talented and tactical to actually fight and win at the very top. Problem is, unlike chess, you have to actually make your own pieces, aka your Pokemon. Let's compare. Let's say, for the sake of argument, that professional chess and (the tactical side of) professional Pokemon take the exact same amount of time to learn. So, we have two people, both young adults, still in college, maybe even working a part time job as well. One wants to learn professional chess and the other professional Pokemon. Let's also assume they both have great talent for their respective hobbies. They both spend all of their limited free time (accumulated hundreds of hours) learning their respective hobbies. Now, the chess player is (pretty much) done. He can go ahead and go to a low level tournament, then work his way up the tourney ladder. But the Pokemon player, he has to do everything the chess player did BUT also spend tens of dozens of hours just training the Pokemon. I won't go too in depth on this, check out the videos done by "im a blisy". He already knew exactly what Pokemon to train, how to train them, and all the rng manipulation and tricks to speed up the process and it still took over 60 hours, for one SINGLE usable team. To make another chess comparison, imagine if every strategy needed its own pieces. If the chess player wants to learn the king's gambit, he just has to spend the time learning the strategy. But if the Pokemon player wants to learn (the equivalent of) the king's gambit, he has to not just spend the time learning the strategy, but also almost a hundred more hours hand making his own strategy-specific-(almost)-unreusable pieces. Also, imagine if certain strategies/pieces, were time limited! Imagine if you could only learn the queen's gambit over the course of 4 days and then never again. That's ALSO Pokemon! (With limited time mystery gift Pokemon) To wrap up my very brief ramblings, the people who want to do competitive Pokemon "legitimately" have to either do it as a full time job (which the prize money alone from the tournaments does not facilitate), or have a successful Pokemon focused KZbin channel. Or kill ALL of their free time. In chess, you only practice strategy, in Pokemon, you do the same AND hand craft your own chess pieces, each unique to a specific strategy. I'm not saying that the banned player did the right thing, or that he didn't break the rules (or that he shouldn't have gotten punished) What I AM saying is that he shouldn't have been forced to "cheat" in the first place, there's TONS of people playing Pokemon showdown daily, all Nintendo has to do, is make a similar system for competitive Pokemon. Most pro players agree that the "training" process is too long and very much redundant. TLDR: The Pokemon competitive scene is very inaccessible, requiring players to either spend all their free time on just training, or just "hack", should they wish to have a life. Sure, they can use Showdown to speed up the process ever so slightly, but having to use third party games as "testing" is just weird. Nintendo should just bake in a Showdown-like mode by default. Problem solved.

[@MysticZefer]

@@cibinomin6540 No, I don't think you do.

[@marcoruttnig1477]

​@@cibinomin6540people are more upset that this rule exists than they are about it being enforced

[@cibinomin6540]

@@MysticZefer you good lil guy?

[@firemuffin1501]

I think your points are valid from a casual battling standpoint. However, every competitive scene requires hundreds to thousands of hours of either training or practice just in order to he eligible to compete. Compared to other e-sports which require thousands of hours of playtime to be good enough to compete, pokemon is comparatively accessible. 60 hours for one team is totally acceptable when what is at stake is thousands of dollars and becoming a champion. It is unrealistic to expect for there to be no time investment in a competition. The pokemon company doesn’t care if their competitors have jobs, just like any other E-sport or physical sport; it’s on the competitor to deal with that, put in the time, and make it happen. If VGC rules were always like showdown then genning would be no problem. But at the end of the day if you gen you save countless hours against those who get their teams legitimately, which is where the unfairness starts to set in.

[@the_exegete]

Competitive Pokemon still requires those thousands of hours of practice to be good enough to rank. There's just another several hundred hours of tedious grinding on top of it for no good reason.

[@auranecropolis2848]

I liked the islands in sun and moon for EV training, breeding isn’t that hard if u don’t play legis but I can totally understand if ppl generate mons. Pokémon shouldn’t ban those shortening their journey towards a competitive team

[@goGothitaLOL]

I miss PokéPelago so much That’s how I used to do EV training in that gen, always (not for legendaries tho cause I don’t have time for that shit, and tried PKSM after the gen was over)

[@livinglegacy5687]

Even if pokemon are hard to get or they cost money, until they change this, RULES ARE RULES. If you don't like them, play Smogon. A good solution would be a creative mode like Smogon but the pokemon you wanted would need to be on your pokedex at the very least. If you see them, you can use it on the ladder/competitive events. This would be awesome for the competitive scene however, the grind for the story mode, breeding, egg moves and all of that would pretty much vanish, which isn't optimal. I would say the best solution OVERALL is to make breeding and all of the necessary items way more accessible and less grindy to have the "perfect pokemon" you wanted with the correct nature/EV/IV,etc... Breeding for the perfect pokemon literally goes against what the pokemon world is about (We literally breed dozens of babies and then we release them because they're useless), to love your pokemon, travel with them and make connections with them...

[@lancejburns]

It kinda feels like the people who don't even play competitive (and often outright brag about not playing competitive) have the strongest opinions on how competitive should be run, whether it's smogon bans or vgc rules.

[@vicoturo2]

I see a lot of people complaing about "costs" to compete in VGC. "Oh no I have to pay $90 to be up to the meta???" But let's not pretend a lot of other competitive games are also pretty expensive. In fighting games you need to buy good controllers, and some of them can cost $200+ (like the smash bros hitbox). If you play a lot, you will most likely have to buy a new one every now and them. You also need to grind A LOT. You think you can learn a new optimal combo in only 2h~3h? Unless you are already pretty good at the game, I don't think so. You also need to study a lot, learn frame data, different matchups, study the gameplay of your opponents, and play against real people, of course. Then, you will also need to have money to travel for tournaments and pay entry fees for them, and if you really want to be good you need to pay a good coach. VGC is actually a really accessible game if all you complain about is not having some hours to do an easy grind with no execution or strategical challenge. Edit: I also forgot about how fighting games can also have 10+ characters DLC and a lot of them are really strong so you most likely have to buy them.

[@Mrperson0]

Don't forget about the cost of actually attending the events in the first place! It's ridiculous to think you can attend these with a full time job.

[@juter1122]

You're supposed to compete like an actual trainer, with mons you just have. You are not supposed to have every tool that can possibly exist.

[@LucasPadovan]

IDK, you can cheat all your game for single player but I do feel like if there is a way to create a team to compete and takes INFINITE hours to build a perfect one, maybe the idea is that they do not need to be the most perfect specimen ever existed, it should be something that you train and has imperfections vs other people that has the same issue. Maybe you have one or two aces because thats what you had time for. Then you can have a different mode for perfect pokemons and maybe that's what the pro thing should be? or a different league?

[@12dessert]

Bro that would be epic

[@a1ace1991]

See this guy gets it

[@ZeroKitsune]

People would be satisfied if there were two different game modes, yes. But in general the argument of "you should accept imperfections" doesn't fly in the world of competitive gaming and never has. Winning is the only thing that matters, and there are literal prizes. You're asking people to just settle for winning less often because...I don't know why. Because some people arbitrarily decided it's "cheating?" And if you think that Pokemon shouldn't be like that...blame Game Freak for making official tournaments. This is how every competitive scene for every game ever made is.

[@a1ace1991]

@@ZeroKitsune cool if you are willing to sacrifice all the work it takes for perfection thats fine if you are not then dont complain about it being too hard to get to perfection lol. Someone is will to put the work in, if you are not thats fine.

[@lecanoscoptical3455]

Maybe turning an rpg with multiple minute factors that cannot be seen or even fully customized consistently due to GF just deciding to randomly add, change, or remove features into a competitive scene was a bad idea to begin with?

[@terrysalt]

The thought of actually training an entire team is so daunting that I wrote off the idea entirely and consider finding Pokemon Showdown the equivalent of winning the lottery. If they made a new Pokemon Stadium style game with the team-building functionality of Showdown, I'd probably buy a Nintendo console just to be able to play it.

[@thesnax9177]

It sucks but Nintendo will never make the tourney gen an option because it'll lose them money They're a publicly traded company, and are legally obliged to do what's best in investor interest

[@darrin777]

I'm trash at competitive, but I have always loved IV/egg move/shiny breeding, EV training, etc. Making the perfect pokemon through my own efforts makes me happy. Sure, I don't get the fancy ribbons caught pokemon have, but I don't care. If I can breed it, I will. I still use caps, mints and whatever other items for pokemon I can't breed (and when it existed, catching for the perfect Hidden Power). I just enjoy making my teams. The fact that each gen makes all of this easier makes me hella sad. Hell, if anyone needs bred pokemon, feel free to ask. Just don't expect shinies. Get those yourself.

[@darrin777]

Note: I'm not condemning anyone that uses faster methods. Merely stating what I like. Nothing more.

[@MuffoonMayham]

I agree. Hatching and catching my perfect Pokémon feels me with joy as well. I’m also not very good at competitive but I love battling and using the Pokémon I’ve trained from scratch.

[@BeatBrat]

I do too honestly. The process can be pretty pleasant for me and I do find it quite fulfilling. But I also feel like the massive disconnect between breeding and raising a perfect Pokemon and actually battling makes it very unrealistic that most players would be happy to do both of these things. Most competitive players want to completely avoid the process, as it really is like an entirely different game.

[@darrin777]

@BeatBratBraden I get that. I suck at battling, but that didn't stop me from entering tournaments. Because of how long the process took in older games, my team would suffer because I would have to speed it up. I'm all for the computer methods, especially since you need to make so many for the ever changing meta, strats and viable/allowable pokemon.

[@SillyLilFella]

I'm glad they added a way to make a Pokémon you caught with bad IVs and a bad nature turn into a competitively viable Pokémon. You can take your first starter from FireRed or Emerald and make it a competitive team member in the most recent games. You can take random shinies you found and make them good as well. All that being said, I'm with you and prefer to breed for good IVs and etc, it's just fun for me. While I'm glad people that DON'T like that aspect get to skip it if they want to, I like seeing "Best!" on a stat rather than "Hyper Trained!" and being able to breed those for more good ones. I guess it feels more "personal" in a goofy way lol

[@zachywatcher2312]

I just wanna point out that you would normally ev train pokemon with vitamins. The only part that is outragious to grind for are the hidden abilities and the tera shards.

[@ddgnp1057]

Tera shards are the only bullshit thing to grind for in my opinion, and you can bet in the DLC they'll add a way to easily get them.

[@ddgnp1057]

And sure enough I was right. You constantly pick up clumps of 10+ Tera shards of any given type in The Indigo Disk. They always lock convenience behind paywalls.

[@malakimphoros2164]

Honestly? If you hack pokemon do it properly so you are not detected.

[@RiruKrypto_]

I played in like 2 VGC regionals and let me tell you, it's very complex, actually went up against some good players and got destroyed so I felt like I questioned why I wanted to even play in Pokemon VGC tournaments in the first place.

[@ryanbranch1430]

Hard agree. It's absurd how much effort goes into the process. The people who say it isn't that bad have been importing Pokes up each generation, seem to love grinding $ for vitamins, and have a wonderful amount of free time.

[@bladerdj3503]

It is insane that despite all the QOL improvements it can still take a long time to get your team ready. Compared to back in the day it is miles better. Yet there are still things that would be cool to improve upon for players... Without patching them in DLC please. I'd like to buy Full-EV-Reset be for free like in X/Y and ORAS. Similar to sending over old Pokémon to new games.

[@fractalisomega9517]

IDK... in SV you generally have most of the resources you need by the time you finish the entire game, or it's not too far off The issue I have is with pokemon that can't be obtained in SV... like sure if you could get Urshifu from Tera raids that'd be one thing, but you can't... and SV players are at a disadvantage against those who brought over old pokemon

[@goGothitaLOL]

And bring back both Super Training and PokéPelago from gens 6 and 7 respectively

[@KYPspikes]

They've made getting a team in certain aspects way easier, but they also added a new grind in tera types.

[@Gold_Bee10]

He has to update the bio now to 3 lol

[@TheGtDragoon]

We in the magic the gathering community have adopted a similar thing. In non-sanctioned play most people are totally cool with proxy cards. We want to play against your mind, not your wallet.

[@RadeticDaniel]

preach, brother

[@Mrperson0]

Non-sanctioned play in the Pokemon community is just Pokemon Showdown.

[@NiseGen-13]

What is Magic the Gathering?

[@RadeticDaniel]

@@NiseGen-13 strategic card game that Pokémon Trading Card Game copied the basic mechanics from. Magic is pretty complex and recently started generating a genre of originals by game creators who miss specific features or generations

[@NiseGen-13]

@@RadeticDaniel Sounds boring for a card game. No wonder proxy card exists.

[@StormCrownSr]

It's only "cheating" because Nintendo says so. That's it.

[@somepersonagainstcheating2671]

player A hacks the game has 100 useable Pokemon and has more battle teams player B who plays the game legitimately has 10 useable Pokemon and a few battle teams. Which player has a competitive advantage?

[@StormCrownSr]

@@somepersonagainstcheating2671 neither. But player A will objectively have more fun. The literal point of a video game.

[@StormCrownSr]

@somepersonagainstcheating2671 also, player b doesn't play "legitimately", player b is just a loser with no skills at basic genning. Or they might not have a pc, in which case they have my condolences.

[@somepersonagainstcheating2671]

@@StormCrownSr having infinite resources and Pokémon is an advantage. The player that hacks has infinite and is always prepared for the meta the player that plays the game legitimately has to constantly have to change their teams and by the time the meta has changed to counter them Pokemon is no different than any other esport why can’t you accept reality? If there is nothing wrong with cheating why does wolfey lie about it?

[@somepersonagainstcheating2671]

@@StormCrownSr Playing the actual game and not using any modified resources is legitimate gameplay and using external third party software to hack in infinite resources is cheating you are in wrong for defending it and you know it why can’t you accept reality?

[@lasagnapig630]

having seen what happened in the smash melee community, I can guarantee to you that the person who came up with the decision to ban genning is over 50 years old and thinks that the only acceptable way to play pokemon is on cartridge with absolutely zero modifications or cheats.

[@falconmaster21]

This argument is honestly kinda stupid though. If we took this over to physical sports it's the same as using performance enhancing drugs to shorten your needed training time and improve overall performance slightly. Shortcuts exist, but that doesn't make them right to use.

[@denpadolt9242]

It's unhelpful and misleading to compare hacking Pokemon for VGC to steroids for physical sports. Using hacked Pokemon doesn't make you as a player any more or less competent at actually *using* them to achieve success - that is a skill that takes time to develop, and unlike any physical sport, there's nothing you can do to artificially enhance that. If you want a better analogy, using hacked Pokemon is like buying the best possible equipment to play a given sport. Yes, it puts players without the best gear at a disadvantage, but it doesn't detract from their inherent knowledge and skills about the game they play.

[@falconmaster21]

@@denpadolt9242 that’s just untrue. PEDs don’t suddenly make you leagues more advanced when it comes to whatever sport you’re in, but they do shorten the training time and lessen the required quality you’d have to put into your training. That’s quite literally exactly what hacking in Pokémon does. You’re making the maximum quality of Pokémon you would still be able to obtain in game which is what PEDs do. Your example would be more equivalent to having event only Pokémon.

[@denpadolt9242]

@@falconmaster21 The quality of the Pokemon isn't what matters, it's the quality of the player using them. If you're trying to argue that hacking Pokemon gives players an unfair advantage by letting them get to practicing their battle skills more often, then... Pokemon Showdown is free for anyone with a computer to use and entirely skips the training process anyways.

[@falconmaster21]

@@denpadolt9242 that’s literally what I’m saying though. The quality isn’t affected, it’s literally the time commitment. It’s equivalent to athletes who have to either put in a major time commitment to get into the right shape or cheat by using PEDs. The same thing happens here with Pokémon. Either you have the people who play it the right way and work for it, or you have people skate by through cheating. Pokémon showdown is perfectly valid for practice. I’m not arguing that it’s not okay for practice, I’m saying it’s not okay to use in official tournaments.

[@broganwarrior4844]

Right now I’m more: if you don’t like the rules, petition and/or boycott to get the rules changed. Don’t just cheat and hide it even if you think it’s a dumb rule.

[@s4ds4d]

I understand the argument, I would probably never have enough time to grind out a pro level team and the training system should be more streamlined. But isn't that how anything works? I could never compete in the Olympics alongside people who have made the sport their life, so why feel cheated by the fact that it took them time?

[@denpadolt9242]

The time investment that *matters* is how long it takes to develop a feel for every little intricacy of the metagame and how to take advantage of them. Pro players aren't pro players because they took the time to breed and train the perfect team, they're pros because they know everything there is to know about the game they play.

[@loccpa]

A tennis player doesn't have to build by himself the racquet. it's simple as that.

[@ihategoogle905]

Let me know when marathon runners start making their own shoes in order to qualify

[@reginaldbarkley2391]

I have never had any interest in playing Pokemon competitively and the bullshit discussed in this video is why. I am sure others are in the same boat. I also assumed that the "cheating" aspect of it was tacitly allowed. As someone with no personal interest in any of this, I am actually angry on behalf of people who flew out to a tournament and took off work only to get banned over this bullshit.

[@Gotsyn]

I stoppd trying to play competitive Pokemon with in-game teams after ORAS. I have a job, I have hobbies, I have friends, and I still find time to play tournaments on showdown or other competitive games in my community. The Pokemon company does not respect their customers' time, money and intelligence, as they know that they can shit out a half-assed Pokemon game every 2 years and people will buy it.

[@andrewf543]

I agree with this take. Originally was on the fence about this, but after listening I think you switched me over

[@MegaSuperCrown]

I just wonder, why is Pokémon the ONLY competitive scene where clearly blatantly CHEATING isn't condemned by everyone. Why is having to do the work be "gatekeepy", and real life training for tournaments instead of just taking steroids to get at the same level than people who worked hard NOT gatekeepy?

[@RadeticDaniel]

You make a good point and I had to think about it, so here is my perspective. When I practiced martial arts, the training for getting the moves right also conditioned my muscles. When you grind for stats, you don't practice the strategical level of competitive battles. When I entered gokarts, money was a bigger limitations than it is today. The way to get faster is to study and practice, but practice comes at a high price and theoretical study can only improve you so much between sessions. Now with SimRacing we can pratice a lot more hours of body coordination to get pedal and steering movements as precise as we want, develop the mental focus to be consistent etc You still need to be on track or exercising in a very specific way to handle the lateral pushes, body positioning and dehydration of longer races in the sun. There is only so much you can do before money to be on track becomes a problem and time to have a clear track to practice is non-existent if you work weekdays. The biggest advantage of mind sports like chess and go/baduk, the overwhelming advantage they share with eSports in general, is that you can focus on the core skill of the game to play. Whatever you play, so long as your characters and items are valid, you can play it normally. In pokemon stadium 1, any move that could not be learned by a pokemon in gen1 got a different color to show it wasn't legal. And i actually resent it a little bit for getting egg moves in gen2 and trading back to red to play on stadium 1, as it labeled me as a cheater when i wasn't. In magic the gathering, outside official competitions, people accept blank paper card with a card name written on it (called a proxy) because they want to play against the player and the strategy. I don't care if the opponent doesn't have the card yet, maybe it is over a 100 euros and his next paycheck is in the week of the event. If he's going to use the card on the event, i want to play against that idea now. Anyway... pokemon has 3 sides to it - catching (gotta catch'em all) - grinding (shinies, egg moves, nature) - battling (badges and vgc) If you race gokarts, you don't have to forge the chassis If you practice martial arts, you don't have to manufacture the equipement If you only want to compete in battle...

[@RadeticDaniel]

All that being said, there are competition with multiple categories that also have a combined contest, like wall climbing That could be a thing for pokemon if they did a speedrun contest, a breeding challenge and a battle tournament maybe Starting from clear saves and all... at least it would feel less arbitrary than either "hack away" or the "no gen" approaches

[@tabbender1232]

Because people got used to it. TPC was too incompetent to ban it from the start so now it's everywhere.

[@RadeticDaniel]

@@tabbender1232 they weren't incompetent, it wasn't viable from the beginning with GameShark available for the first generations. What they had for tournaments that used stadium for the battles importing teams from player cartridges was a different color for the move name if it could not be learned by gameplay in any way

[@arachnofiend2859]

Mashing A against wild Pokemon is not training for competitive Pokemon and if it is then Pokemon is not a competitive game