Deltarune Chapter 2's Secret Genocide Route (SnowGrave / Weird / Pipis Route differences)

[@2leftthumbs]

Can't get enough violence and murder in your video games? Dead Estate releases in 1 MONTH!! Please give that a look, and Wishlist it if it looks like your kinda game ► store.steampowered.com/app/1484720/Dead_Estate/ ◄ New "Gaster Eggs" videos coming soon. First I need to spend some time on my Madness Flashlight video!

[@2leftthumbs]

Apparently there is a scene when you head back to the first Dark World castle after this route! DANG! I can't believe I missed that. When the first Gaster Eggs video comes along, I'll have to include that!

[@nicolasxd7717]

Watch what happens when i cast a spell i dont know! 🧊🐦

[@pawel_maslanka]

it's CRAZY how the game released 3 days ago and has no more uncovered secrets

[@luizhenriquebarbosadasilva8667]

also theres a new weapon to ralsei called pupet scar see it for yourself visiting again the school after those events

[@evildead8179]

Can’t wait for your name game to come out it sounds really fun

[@imthedude2351]

“Kris called for help...” “ _You_ whispered Noelle’s name...” Interesting distinction

[@Tycini1]

No though

[@Tycini1]

wrong comment, sorry, nevermind

[@system_ai9248]

Not only that, but the fact that it was a whisper really stuck with me. With Ralsei and Susie, Kris would yell but they couldn't hear them. You, on the other hand, just had to whisper and Noelle instantly showed up to freeze the enemy, like some sort of enchantment, it's just scary...

[@dronz3881]

@@system_ai9248 It's because you put a ring on her with the "trance" effect. This allow you to control her, against her will.

[@system_ai9248]

@@dronz3881Dear god this gets more and more f*cked up the more I think of it...

[@erikm8373]

Toby making chapter 1: "none of your choices matter, you can't change things in this world" Toby making chapter 2: "yeah feel free to kill berdley if you really want"

[@drgxiii]

Your choices don't matter, but manipulating someone elses choices does.

[@DaDoppen]

Also, "This world" could simply mean the Light World, maybe choices do matter in the Dark World.

[@pumkinbutter]

@@DaDoppen damn that's actually a valid point

[@danielfletcher706]

players usually won't play a game exactly like the developers intended them to play.

[@YituTG]

@@DaDoppen killing berdly/make him lose an arm in the dark world does have consequences in the light world, but who exactly is "you"? Would it be referring to Kris or the player? Who said "your choices don't matter in this world?" and is the entity talking to us, to Kris or someone else entirely?

[@EeveeHawkFan]

I do love how this sounds like an old creepypasta, yet at the same time is chillingly horrific when you actually play/see it

[@MetalMockingjay]

That's what I liked about Undertale. So many spooky hidden things, that actually have big implications for the entire game.

[@seventeenthletter17]

Heh, *chillingly*.

[@personman2346]

@@seventeenthletter17 MY ONLY WEAKNESS, DAD JOOOKESSS

[@kittykittybangbang9367]

@@MetalMockingjay Once Toby is finished with Deltarune, he should make a horror/thriller game.

[@adarkertriad]

@@kittykittybangbang9367 I have the feeling he’ll be done after chapter 7, depending on how many years this all takes

[@LittleMisZorua]

There was one comment on twitter before chapter 2 was released, and there was this one guy who was saying, ‘can we kill off berdly? Thanks,’ then after chapter 2, they came back and replied, ‘I TAKE IT BACK, I TAKE IT BACK’

[@TornadoWeather7496]

I kid you not, I have a small laugh. Idk why, and it may be perceived as cruel, but Toby took to their wishes and they went back on it, CAPITAL LETTERS and all.

[@ARCHIVED9610]

i felt so numb during this route unsure where it was reallly heading and the berdly part kinda just hurtttt

[@christinali3614]

LMAO

[@Debater]

Berdly has many, _many_ flaws, but he didn't deserve to die in the slightest, and if there's one thing worth respecting about him, it's how he stood up for Noelle and flat-out dropped the stupid act when he realized exactly what was going on.

[@GooperPooper]

ayoooo no way

[@Seeks_stuff]

Here's a fun detail: If you exclude Kris, Susie and Noelle from the classroom, there are 6 students left. If you also exclude Berdly since he dies in this chapter, it leaves us with 5 alive classmates. And 5 chapters left. I think we all know where this is going. May I also remind you that Temmie is one of the classmates. Good luck breakin your heart when playing the full game.

[@Official_Javee]

Nooo we are manipulating a poor girl to kill every classmate ;-;

[@Potramon]

eliminate the competition, be the best school project

[@literallyapotato7736]

TEMMIE NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA

[@snowflake_18]

OH CRUD ARE YOU FOR REAL-

[@raheemaslam7363]

*5 left =)

[@lolitsme746]

One nice detail: When Noelle debates using the forcefield to kill Kris, you can see her walk for a second about to step off the switch

[@12-2munkh5]

which part

[@jsw973]

Thank you, though I didn’t feel it was nice

[@lolitsme746]

11-2 Munkh Right before you tell her "It's natural"

[@ECODKyleskymast]

@@lolitsme746 Almost like a certain flower saying "us monsters wouldn't hesitate to kill each other", huh?

[@hasanelrabih283]

That's a really nICE detail!

[@EarlyOwOwl]

I remember when ch. 1 came out Toby said in an intreview that he wasn't trying to make something on the scale of Undertale, that he didn't think he could make something that would make us feel "that way" again. ... Goddammit man, don't underestimate yourself.

[@FuryJack07]

In fact , he didn't make us feel that way... He made us feel WORSE than _that_

[@InkyPF]

Tbh I’ve played undertake so many times that I’m starting to like delta tube so much more

[@FuryJack07]

@@InkyPF you wrote them really bad...😑

[@InkyPF]

@@FuryJack07 autocorrect lol

[@FlaUnYT]

@@InkyPF undertake and delta tube

[@around441pipissharingaytac4]

Fun fact: in the snowgrave route when you encounter berdly, his expression is more serious and doesnt have that smug raised eyebrow and smile, instead he looks more surprised, and his HalBird doesnt have an eye

[@Debater]

Before you showed up with a mistreated Noelle, this was all a game to Berdly. The minute he saw what you’d made Noelle into, the game was over. It became too personal. It turned into a fight to save Noelle. Note how at the start of this fight, he *never* targets Noelle if you’re an option, he only fights her once Kris is downed and he realizes she isn't just going to stop.

[@isasadiqov7721]

@@Debater His attacks are also a stronger version of the ones on the normal route, implying he was holding back.

[@Debater]

@@isasadiqov7721 I mean, he treated all of this like a game of sorts. He wasn't being serious, so yeah, it's not like he actually was trying to kill the gang. *Everyone* is holding back, usually. I mean, it's not like the gang wanted to kill Berdly, either.

[@pillgrimm]

this is the only interesting comment

[@Aviarmew]

The wording during the last part of the Spamton Neo fight when calling for help from friends is specific in a very chilling way. When Ralsei and Susie are being called out to, it specifically mentions that Kris is the one calling out to them. When Noelle is whispered to, it says YOU whispered to Noelle.

[@jj_1167]

Yooooo I didn’t notice dang bro

[@lasagna3289]

Oh my god you’re right

[@purehollow]

Breaking the fourth wall

[@sugarruneunlimited4595]

I actually noticed that after I did it and thought about it this route is terrifying in that you as the player are wiggling your way into Noelle's head kind of like how you do when you "imagine" what Susie is doing, but even then you have no control over her actions whatsoever by doing this, she becomes a winter soldier which is willing to follow your every command no matter how murderous it takes her a while to swallow what she is doing but eventually she continues art he end of Spamton the fact that you can see what she is thinking more than anyone and even respond says a lot also, the "you" "Kris" thing is something Spamton does too before his fight he says Kris' name over and over, but when you call for Noelle, he mentions how "You" are trying to still use her to which she comes to your aid Toby Fox has truly written a story so dense with meaning and feelings that it can be softer than a kitten, scarier than most horror games and or movies, and be more open ended than most philosophy while retaining it's rigid stories you really are a worm, one that dug into their minds

[@teehee1777]

"I'm protecting her from you!" Kris didn't say that to Berdly, it was meant for YOU. (just a funny theory)

[@napoleoncomplex2712]

With the 'Soul' rapidly becoming the villain, Susie seems to be becoming the more heroic character who clears up as much of the mess as she can. She's the one who invites the queen, and also seems to help Noelle after the mess you leave her in after Snowgrave. She also interrupts your little nightmare speech to Noelle in the Light World where you torment her about what happened there.

[@notopianne2906]

maybe in future chapters with this run, susie ends up being one of the last character you fight against, with a new theme song that sounds heroic to reflect her being the hero of the story

[@Buphido]

@@notopianne2906 or you fight her with megalovania playing in the background. Toby Fox has historically always put a version of this song in his works and the soundtrack is theorized to not be the themesong of ie. Sans but rather of the player character gone power hungry (google megalomania).

[@comfy88338]

I can imagine Susie becoming the Undyne of the story later on, using everything in her power to stop you, only to fail. A shame really, apart from the player, no one really wins in Undertale or Deltarune, they just survive depending on what we do.

[@napoleoncomplex2712]

@@comfy88338 I think Susie is more likely to reprise her 'Vs Susie' track than Megalovania. Though there could be more than one fight with her. Susie would also be a formidable opponent; Kris on their own isn't a great damage dealer, so she'd be dangerous in a one on one fight with them. To say nothing of the fact she can go after them in the real world, where Kris is DEFINITELY at a physical disadvantage.

[@comfy88338]

@@napoleoncomplex2712 You know, considering that this is Snowgrave, wouldn't be surprised if Kris is able to one shot Susie. I mean, if Kris, Susie and Ralsei had to fight Spamton NEO together to even stand a chance in Pacifist, whereas Kris fought him alone in Snowgrave, that should honestly be a no brainer. X-Slash is a pretty broken move, dealing over 400 damage to Spamton NEO, someone who should be far stronger than Susie. And what's to say that Kris would be fighting Susie alone? We could just send Noelle on her, she *does* become our puppet after all, and with Noelle dealing over 1800 damage to Spamton with a simple Iceshock, (Iceshock, not Snowgrave, Iceshock) Susie stands no chance in hell. And keep in mind, this is only Chapter 2, Kris would just continue to get stronger alongside Noelle, in such a rate that I doubt anyone could catch up to either of them. Only person that I think could stop them would be the Knight. Snowgrave Kris doesn't need any special weapons or items, as X-Slash does insane amounts of damage, even with the Wooden Blade, and Fried Pipis heals Kris 120HP. If Kris continues to get stronger with these Weird Routes, than Kris vs Susie would be no better a matchup than LV 20 Frisk vs Undyne the Undying, definitely not far in the slightest.

[@bryce2615]

Here's a little something I found today: During the Genocide route if you check on Lancer before the Spamtom fight he'll be a stone statue.

[@soyalguienqueestamuyaburri8396]

O

[@robozams]

:(

[@falconeshield]

But he was one in the Normal Route as well

[@PogChimp]

@@falconeshield yeah but this time hes still in your inventory

[@memescoffee3173]

Does that mean he tried to escape you....

[@melon0637]

I think the reason why chapter 1 was "wholesome" is to set up Susie and ralsei to join the crew. If genocide was applicable in the first chapter there will be no foundation for chapter 2 because no one would want to pair up with a psychopath 💀💀

[@modernprometheus99]

I think it's also just to handle expectations of the game. Toby has said outright there will be one ending, and if chapter one had a real "genocide" route, players would probably miss that. I think chapter 2 Toby let himself be a bit more lax now that more people would get the idea that there's one ending. For the record, I don't doubt there will be lasting negative effects of Snowgrave if you chose to continue from a chapter 2 save. Just that it will end up the same regardless, kind of like how different events happen in chapter one depending on if you spare everyone, but you still get the same result.

[@Grace_Creation]

True!

[@NotArmoredSelf]

Fun Fact: Noelle's Health stops at 55 when the Thorn Ring is equipped. And if you put 55 in roman numerals... it says "LV". And since we know Toby and his secrets, its fair to say that this is NOT a coincidence.

[@esanders777]

Oh no

[@eltiodiavolo7989]

LV?

[@Rukalin]

@@eltiodiavolo7989 Undertale's abbreviation of LOVE, which is itself an abbreviation of "Level Of ViolEnce"

[@eliczek6142]

@@eltiodiavolo7989 L=50 V=5

[@classy_cramorant9405]

Uh oh.

[@JasonSmith-lb1nx]

This feels worse than the genocide run. At least in the genocide run of undertale they don’t seem to know you, but in this, they know who you are, they call you by your name, they have a connection to you, that you yourself are messing with

[@MetalMockingjay]

Though to some extent, you did have a sort of connection with Flowey and Sans, since they're sort of your companions through the game. That scene with Kris pushing Noelle to Proceed with the puzzle felt a lot like the final encounter with Flowey in genocide.

[@kittykittybangbang9367]

@@MetalMockingjay I miss flowey

[@eobardthawne1430]

To me the undertale characters all felt like videogame characters, while this game does a good job of making the light world and dark world separate. When you see the bird dead in the real world it feels worse to me.

[@JasonSmith-lb1nx]

@@eobardthawne1430 exactly, it shows that you are manipulating someone else, you aren’t making any direct actions, and these indirect actions are then shown in the light world

[@joserubalcava1811]

Not to mention they’re trying to kill you in undertale. So in some way you feel justified like you’re taking revenge. In delta rune, if you’re “downed” you’re not actually dead just a little beaten up. And, everyone’s trying to have fun with you too, even the queen. So not only do you corrupt someone, you corrupt the whole dark world in a way :(

[@V0xxal]

Spamton Neo’s line “Neo is famous for it’s high defense” is a joke. Spamton is using Mettaton Neo’s body, who is known for dying in one hit

[@StarlightMagician]

Metaton NEO dies in one shot since you're so powerful by that point that even if he had Dragon quest Metal Slime levels of defense (that's the max of 999 for anyone who doesn't know), he'd die in one hit from you anyway.

[@leedlelel2373]

@@StarlightMagician actually if you dont kill all the enemies in hotland he has special dialogue if you kill him, saying that alphys shouldve worked on the defenses, his check description also makes it very clear he literally has no defense whatsoever

[@violetviolo]

@@StarlightMagician in the code he literally has -40,000 defense

[@bananadaily2317]

except it takes a few hits

[@wolfydawolf5680]

@@bananadaily2317 in genocide, it takes only one hit if you choose to immediately kill Mettaton. In normal, idk if you get to fight NEO. In pacifist, I know for a fact you do not fight NEO

[@kriscrimetm6961]

39:53 The first time I played Chapter 2 in the end I just found funny the fact that they said "a person would fit inside", like why, but now that Berdly is there "sleeping", it makes so much sense and its terrifying

[@fx2thegoldenwarrior]

The first time, in the happy route, I thought of Queen, and how she is about the size that should fit in there. This is just made it disturbing

[@TheDragonCat99]

Maybe when Kris cleaned up the room they hid the body in the closet. No one will know what happened to Berdly in Chapter 3.

[@hannahBel26]

Omg! I never thought of it that way

[@cawareyoudoin7379]

It's actually probably where the Knight was hiding to make the Cyber World fountain. Berdly isn't particularly big, but the closet being big makes it possible for a person of any size to be a Knight.

[@juzox5161]

On the Deltarune website, the chapter 3 teasers showed police tape, I assume it's due to other events like undyne discovering the existence of Dark Worlds or the slashing of tires leads to the town believing there is a dangerous slasher on the loose bring to certain investigations, but what if the tape is blocking the library if we do the Weird Route because of Berdly's body found in the computer lab closet?

[@jarondratman]

I think the part of this route that freaked me out the most was the interaction at about 10:00 where Kris responds to Noelle's thoughts. She didn't say that out loud, and Kris didn't hear it nor did they respond to it. That was the player communicating with Noelle using Kris as a proxy, the small details like this that Toby uses to establish the different between us as the Player and Kris as a character is such a cool story element and can make for some really unsettling moments when the split between them becomes apparent like that.

[@captainrick4513]

I feel like Toby started leaning into OneShot's style of having the player and the player's character be separate beings in the story. In OneShot, the player is literally a god to the game's world while being an average person in their own, and controlling the "messiah", that being Niko, whereas in deltarune and even undertale, it's kind of similar, the only difference being that the player's power is in the heart you control, but Kris is actually able to reject the player's wishes by tearing out the heart for an amount of time.

[@moneyhoney5776]

It also happens in 42:58

[@conejitorosada2326]

aren't the text in () means it's a whisper? as other characters does it and it isn't in their thoughts

[@sharktos3218]

@@conejitorosada2326 I think Susie responded to Ralseis () as well

[@conejitorosada2326]

@@sharktos3218 Yeah, she talked to him not wearing his hat and Ralsei was all like "You thought I was cuter before or now?"

[@TheVillager69]

This was literally the most chilling (no pun intended) experience I have EVER done. The fact you turn Noelle, the sweetest girl in town, into a murderer is just...scary.

[@hoshueyeplopper4465]

PROCEED

[@SamulolDumbass]

@@hoshueyeplopper4465 *P* *R* *O* *C* *E* *E* *D*

[@Zack_Zander]

I can only imagine what is her LV (LOVE) is at. Pretty sure the Lv in the Dark World is solely for Level and doesn’t really increase other than after each chapter, but the stats are definitely affected by something.

[@JohnnyTightlips2007]

That pun was completely intentional and you know it.

[@I-_-l-_-l-_-I]

@@Zack_Zander well uh she did get lv in real world if you know what I mean

[@Eclipse-ou4nz]

I feel like this route gives a lot more context into why Kris rips out their heart at the end, they are riping out the player. That's why the camera doesn't move with them anymore. It's so they can now do things of their own free will.

[@soup_lover39]

Wait that’s so smart

[@misterjack9991]

@@Jombridge and why does kris pull out a knife after pulling out the player's soul? especially the thing about toriel's car tires getting slashed

[@nah4437]

@@misterjack9991 I feel like they slashed toriel’s car in order to get Undyne’s attention. They opened the door at night so Undyne could see into the house while she’s checking out the car and see Kris in distress. I think it’s a call for help from the police maybe, and the putting the heart back was just the player or whatever entity has Kris under control.

[@kautsaraliandra1396]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think at the end of chapter 1, when you try to move after Kris trap the heart in the cage, you control the heart instead.

[@nolangerrans6083]

@@kautsaraliandra1396 you can indeed. Considering there are choices that kris clearly hated that you can still take, it seems pretty concrete that the player is actually the soul and that you are controlling kris

[@MrMeatballYT]

I think we tend to forget that Noelle not only kills Berdly, but also Spamton NEO, and when she kills Spamton NEO, she does nearly triple the damage she did against Berdly. She's gotten stronger.

[@CMGThePerson]

Considering this and the fact the palace is completely cleaned out, I think it's safe to say Noelle killed all the palace guards *by herself*

[@MandarinEG1]

@@CMGThePerson aren't they all stuck in the shop

[@josearias719]

@Captain beans What if defence doesn't work against magic?

[@the1337fleet]

It's only a little more than the damage to Berdly (1762 vs 2072), though without Spamton's high defense maybe it could have been triple

[@Walrus5]

@Captain beans nah she used a special attack and spamton has low special defence

[@ClonedGamer001]

Not sure if anyone pointed this out yet, but during the last part of the Spamton fight, the dialogue has a strange distinction: When calling for Ralsei or Susie, it says " *Kris* called for help...but nobody came" but when calling for Noelle it instead says " *You* called for help"

[@daytimesky]

Holy crap. Major implications there...

[@sinteleon]

You don't call for help actually, you whispered her name, and somehow, despite being a whisper, and it being only her name, she responds. She's basically your puppet at that point.

[@Rose-ew7bv]

To be honest i think this game is going to get to a point where it literally doesnt let you win a genocide run, like the characters and the game dont want it to happen, eventually i think its going to fight back, your choices arent supposed to matter

[@calimitaprefetta]

There’s a reason it’s called [player name] Town, when Kris rips out their soul, it’s Kris removing us, to try and help everyone else

[@calimitaprefetta]

@TrainerblueTube different type of help By doing these things Kris might be trying to grab attention to see if someone will notice the change in behaviour Like how Ralsei and Noelle have

[@socksinsoda9517]

The Snowgrave route actually made me respect Berdly a bit more. He saw that something was hurting his friend, Noelle, and he didn't hesitate to help her. It's a shame that he met such a *chilling* fate 🐦

[@mr.gameandtime8432]

Like Queen said, Nothing is wrong with him... He's just annoying.

[@donnovandalusong266]

Guess he’s stuck there ICING around

[@theeclipsemaster]

What noelle did, thats just cold

[@sleep170]

wow this route wasn’t very COOL

[@comfybox]

These replies are SNOW bad

[@lucyheartfilliadragneel]

Anyone notice as you progress, Noelle's eyes go from looking forward to looking more toward the corner? Like shes trying to avoid eye contact with the enemies?

[@Lara-vo6rp]

Wait that could actually be highly possible also that's sad...

[@laura-ni8ym]

her battle sprites change in the snowgrave route. instead of being comedically nervous, she's numb & sad

[@yeethittter1285]

Her sprite switches that way after you steal the freeze ring, which she feels incredibly guilty for

[@mahlawn2808]

Spamton in the Snowgrave route reminds me of Flowey in the Genocide run. They both encourage you to keep doing what you're doing, but change their minds when they realize you're going to destroy the world.

[@ItsB1998]

Kris wasn't going to destroy the world though, he never when as far as Frisk/chara did.

[@mahlawn2808]

@@ItsB1998 Kris was going to seal the fountain, which is effectively destroying the world as far as Spamton knew it. Spamton wasn't recruited in the snowgrave route, so chances are he would die if the fountain was sealed with him still inside.

[@saulgoodmanactionfigure]

spamton did this to get the soul not to stop kris

[@Breached18]

@@saulgoodmanactionfigure no, he wanted to stop Kris. Snowgrave Spamton doesn't care about H E A V E N. He's a big shot once again. He rules Cyber World with an iron fist. He has everything again. And you helped him, just like his previous benefactor... but just like them... you're leaving, and trying to take that away from Spamton. He's furious.

[@saulgoodmanactionfigure]

@@Breached18 oh yeah sorry. still he did this not to do justice but to stop Kris from sealing the fountain. and soul is still a nice benefit tho

[@chiachimariachi4682]

I never thought I'd be more disturbed by the thought of Berdly sitting at a table in the library alone, to never wake up again. Especially since I didn't like him during my first playthrough. Jesus that is dark-

[@ochanoii4256]

It will most likely even get more darker, which makes it very interesting. Toby very much knows what he is doing here

[@zigfaust]

I legit loved him from his first appearance and have a theory people who see too much of themselves in him hate him. Dude is funny af. And there's nothing wrong with him, he's just annoying and has a broken gaydar.

[@TheTheThe_]

Berdly is the better character between him and Noelle in the normal route

[@nathangordon4891]

Yeah seeing a comic relief character like Berdly just lying there essentially dead is horrifying.

[@johncruelty20]

Ikr, it’s really creepy how such a loud and obnoxious character is just… dead. It’s almost as dark as the source material of your pfp.

[@lovetrain5025]

26:25 I find it very interesting how Ralsei is fully aware how we are supposed to cut to Susie and Noelle's moment together, and then asks Susie what happened in there in an attempt to explain to us, the player, about the exchange that happened. Ralsei has been acting odd in specific moments debuting a chapter 2 which leads me to believe he will have major implications on the story going forward

[@Zapidalacz]

He does feel like he understands more than any other character just like Sans/Chara did. He's not talking to the player and breaking the fourth wall DIRECTLY though. We will see what Toby's got in store for us I guess

[@lucasispapyrus901]

Quick note i wanted to add. I always thought it was weird that when you enter the castle town for the second time ralsei tell you to go to the abandoned classroom, even though he should have no knowledge of it

[@Zapidalacz]

@@lucasispapyrus901 i like how I was thinking at that moment how "oh then it's all just a game, like dnd but using magic to play" but i never thought how Ralsei knew more than he should. Feels so obvious yet I gotta acknowledge that was a good catch

[@Jpx0999]

He is a FUCKING main character and the first actual ally you have in the dark world Of course he would have a... FUCK it

[@nerdmysteria1406]

May someone please explain to me what Susie did to Noelle? I can’t really put my finger on what happened

[@naomisheadspacevids5637]

What really creeps me out about this route is that Toby gives you so, so, SO many chances to back out of it, to return to the normal, fun, upbeat and happy route. Every chance. And you still PROCEED with it anyway.

[@omori_legit]

mmm delicious power

[@omrr2096]

It kind of reminds me of the genocide route where Toby makes you feel guilty for what you are doing in every action especially with the fact you can reset at anytime

[@Blapedred]

That’s because it’s fun unlike undertakes genocide route

[@tesouro2146]

@@Blapedred It's not fun, it's quick, If I had to keep freezing enemies for as long as you had to in Undertale, I'd find yourself bored to death as well

[@Blapedred]

@@tesouro2146 Also it's not as tedious since you can see enemies in the overworld

[@hydrastuff8029]

So You either: -Make friends, fight a queen, and save the day Or -Manipulate one of Kris's friends into becoming a dangerous serial killer by gaslighting and abusing her

[@m4y013]

Come on its toby you should knew his writing by now

[@Adeone7368]

Eh it's Tuesday those things happen.

[@cobygamer4465]

@@m4y013 You either become friends with everyone and save them all, fight a flower or brutally get a species extinct and destroy the world. Undertale summarized badly

[@thescarytransperson]

@@Adeone7368 a Friday, actually

[@gamerjones7086]

based kris

[@dodiswatchbobobo]

I think Noelle’s asking Susie directly about her tail comes more from needing to confirm that it WAS just a dream in this route, whereas in the normal route she’s checking because she hopes it wasn’t a dream. Likewise her need to hold on to the controller with her dad comes from her trauma over being controlled like the game character in the Dark World. She’s now terrified to give up control to anybody because she did horrible things under our control, while telling herself she was making her own choices.

[@zigfaust]

@@GreatestLeaf Also the fact that Kris likes Susie too, but your own actions (and the Fans shipping) makes him seem interested in Raslei, a person he has only just met and looks like his brother. It would be insanity for Kris to do that, but you the player are like "Say sweet things to goat boi and hug him." I love how Susie straight up is like "WHY DOES KRIS MAKE ALL THE DECISIONS?" at one point and runs off with Ral. I'm thinking she's going to try to defeat the PLAYER themselves at some point....

[@fanaticaH]

I agree, specially because of the fortune wheel date, the whole time Susie was trying to say everything was real but she felt scared of their whole adventure being ratted to the adults and them being forbidden to go to the dark world again. But this time they don't even go on that date and instead something unspecified happens at Noelle's room. On the normal route she wants things to be real and on this route she just wants everything to be a nightmare. She really gets shocked if they see you using her watch.

[@fanaticaH]

@@zigfaust I don't know if the devs are even pushing a ship for Kris, it seems like they just want them to be friends with everyone. But yeah, some characters get uncomfortable with some of the shippy answers which should have been a clue that it's just the player forcing a ship. For example that dialogue about the prom where you can say you want to date Noelle or Susie and make things weird, when you could say you would go with Asriel as family.

[@danielle5160]

Also, the fact that Susie says she wants to seal the fountain because "Noelle needs to wake up" seems to indicate that in this route Susie told her it was just a dream to comfort her, though she probably doesn't understand the actual reason she was scared. Or at least that's the way I interpreted it.

[@InsidePhil]

The controller dialogue happens on a normal route too

[@Galeforce017]

Every time I thought "The game won't go this far." it just did. It was incredible, honestly, Toby managed to just make the original genocide look way more tame. Tbf, even in the main route I was surprised by how much you can bully Noel.

[@dreamy_kiwi2780]

I didn't MEAN to throw the mice at her! I'm just too stupid to do the puzzle right on the first few tries!! 😭😭😭

[@Zarkyun]

@@dreamy_kiwi2780 I failed that puzzle so many times, and the whole time I was like "noooooo, I swear it wasn't on purpose!"

[@Serzari]

@@Zarkyun I actually think pranking her is what Kris would've normally done if you've seen everything Noelle mentions about your past history together. That and the fact she joins in and pranks you back with the force field one. Gotta balance it out by giving her the gift tho

[@fantasyshadows3207]

@@Serzari driving her to freeze things is definitely not something Kris would do

[@Serzari]

@@fantasyshadows3207 Yeah, no argument there. I'm talking neutral run only. The force field pranks are impossible on weird route, as she automatically steps on the first button to let you through (and thinks about stepping off to electrocute you)

[@Soosss]

Toby never said that we couldn't make others make game-changing decisions for us... just that we couldnt influence the world with kris. What a cheeky dev toby is.

[@landios9555]

you have a point. i hate that point but you have one.

[@epimethues4663]

200th like 😎

[@theperson_12]

@@epimethues4663 284th like 😎

[@samscorch8252]

304th like

[@santiagozuniga1473]

He never said either of those he just said that there is only one ending however you know like how seam says after you beat jevil

[@king-fool]

At the beginning she hesitates to freeze the enemy. But in the end... You just whisper her name, and the monster you created hears your command. Impressive storytelling...

[@lucasmartinez5703]

Like how Chara hesitates to kill Asriel at the end of a genocide run, but only after the player's input they go through with it.

[@mcgfn]

@@lucasmartinez5703since when does chara "hesitate"? lmao that doesn't happen flowey dies literally the moment you press a button after his final "please dont kill me"

[@lucasmartinez5703]

When you're not pressing anything. That doesn't happen automatically. You have to press a button.

[@balladofthegoddess]

Reminds me of charas little speech. Something along the lines of "the demon who comes when you call its name. It's doesn't matter where, and it doesn't matter when."

[@matthewnorton-baker9079]

This route has a lot of interesting implications about how the world of deltarune works and how it might be explained later. The human soul (i.e. the player) can totally control Kris, which is why people keep noting in both chapters that they're acting unusually. Kris is an individual who has been made a vessel for the player. The soul is also able to control others as well, our "party". That's why our party members just do what we say, the soul forces them too. Noelle can't stop herself from murdering because the player is commanding it, and as a party member she has no free will. The "creepy voice" she hears is the player. Kris has as little control over this as she does, which is why they rip out the soul to act independently. There's other little hints about this. I think all the dialogue where Character's are describing Kris's facial reactions are the real Kris breaking through the player's control, like when they get pissed off for Susie saying they can't play the piano because the player messed it up for them. So when Kris seems really upset after the Spamton fight, a fight all about breaking free and not being a puppet anymore, that's the real Kris being affected because they are a puppet too, OUR puppet. This mindset really puts the whole game in a different light for me. It's a very cool subversion on RPG tropes. All RPGs operate on this logic of the player completely controlling the actions of the party members in battle, but I've never seen it called out like this.

[@ZachMiles-ns5ue]

This is an interesting take

[@xephionsaketzu]

I dont entirely agree with this theory because this will imply Kris has no control over us. but is the opposite he can rip us out anytime he wants but the weird part is he keeps putting us back so why is he doing that why does he need us?? even after this that is truly fucked up he still put us back in twice it feels like whatever he need us for is more important than what we do with his body. or that he doesn't mind what we are doing at all

[@el2746]

@@xephionsaketzu Maybe Kris didnt put the soul in his chest, maybe it was simply the player taking control over him again ?

[@matthewnorton-baker9079]

@@xephionsaketzu Maybe Kris can't live long without the soul, they do get all limpy and staggery when they rip it out. They need us to survive, so they have to stay a puppet most of the time

[@linear1224]

I hope we get to talk to Kris at some point, maybe in a later chapter when Kris has control?

[@mysticat]

I never would have found this stuff on my own, lol

[@xxmansoorxx2000]

I kinda remember watching you but seriously who figured this out

[@Blocky_Frog]

Whoever thought to do this and toby for coding this are insane

[@PluslePlayzYT]

I may or may not have somehow done it on my own before I knew what snowgrave even was, much less that I was on a secret path

[@spy2050]

Its better to not find this nightmare lol

[@xxmansoorxx2000]

@@spy2050 trying this is cool but finding out about it that will be crazy and scary

[@fatalbert2055]

Spamton is strangely coherent during his fight here, it’s really creepy.

[@Tower_Swagman]

I made the likes 70 cuz yeah

[@painslut]

But why ? Does negative things makes him more coherent ? Are we as 'insane/cursed/whatever' as him ? Maybe he previously killed his rivals to be a big shot or something ?

[@averagechannelname9969]

I WAS LOOKING FOR THIS COMMENT!!

[@lukarikid9001]

Spamton is kind of a shady character, it makes sense that he is more prepared to deal with a monster

[@Yes-xi3xw]

Maybe it is his true self talking. You know, before he went crazy

[@marimakinami398]

I’d just like to point out that during the character creator segment you’re asked what the vessel’s favorite food is, one of the options is ‘pain’ and here in the Snowgrave route we have Spamton’s description telling you to “wake up and taste the pain”. I don’t think Spamton is insane. I think he’s enlightened.

[@piotrwojcik6277]

Genius and madness are merely two sides of the same coin

[@toriancaldwell8489]

It's also probably a reference to a test room in Undertale where it reads, "La, la. Time to wake up and smell the pain."

[@Epscylon]

I would in turn like to point out an unused room from undertale. It’s a test room with three dialogue boxes, and the left-most one reads: Time to wake up and smell(in red) [long pause] the pain. Still seems a bit shaky though. Fuefuefuefue Edit: kzbin.info/www/bejne/a2rJqYVqf8tgZ6M for this unused “TESTROOM” See my eyebrow inching up my face when I see Snowgrave and that room and Mr. Elegance with his nostrils that he “sees” out of. And how so much flavor text in the battles consists of “smells like x.” Edit: also… the text above the memoryheads in True Lab… Lorem ipsum docet. It means Pain teaches.

[@caseyjoy8616]

pain in French means bread

[@confusingfaun361]

Spam was drove insane by gaster, like this is known fact, just like how jester was.

[@spamton5266]

Fun fact: When you fight berdly in this run, he wont have that smug face anymore, his sprite will be without a pixel, so he wont have a smug but instead a serious face.

[@bigpigeon2384]

He completely drops the whole arrogant and smug act when he sees Noelle is genuinely hurt

[@Melonx888]

The word is serious...

[@bituin5908]

@@Melonx888 we get what theyre saying

[@V1G4M1]

One thing you missed is, you can actually force noelle to face her fear of mice earlier. If you just proceed through the first mouse puzzle, telling noelle you‘re leaving her if she doesn‘t follow, she runs through it, and gets 6 points bolder.

[@alexandthebozos5488]

yeah, thats what i said

[@rawquikh0ney710]

It's worse making someone as wholesome as Noelle turn into a scared murder include on of all people to choose it had to be her.

[@romanfrancis1232]

She was the best candidate, given she seemed to like/trust Kris the most out if the other classmates given their history.

[@rawquikh0ney710]

@@romanfrancis1232 and since Kris can be a anagram for risk.

[@romanfrancis1232]

@@rawquikh0ney710 so Kris Dreemurr is an Anagram for Risk Murderer. Also, a Kris is actually a type of dagger/blade

[@rawquikh0ney710]

@@romanfrancis1232 he is also labeled as the Knight I think

[@romanfrancis1232]

@@rawquikh0ney710 well he is wearing Knight attire

[@AlexDeath15]

Noelle’s monologue at 14:33 reminds me of the toxic parenting, when parents expose kids to situations they are not ready for to make them “grow up” and “become stronger”. Doesn’t the game imply that Noelle has a very difficult relationship with her mother? And since she is used to following orders, she is easily manipulated by us/player. I wonder if their family relationship is going to be brought up in the next chapter

[@muffin-zw9yv]

thats a really good point and i think this comment should get more attention, but maybe the next chapter will also be in the dark world or something, but the real world is outside, so maybe they'll discuss it more in the real world at the end of the game?

[@lathowne]

The father of Noelle mentioned that he was the balance of the family w/ Noelle, as her mother is VERY "harsh" on her, so you are probably right on this part.

[@AstroAnalysis]

I totally kept thinking that Noelle's problems with her mother were somehow being reflected in the Dark World in the form of Queen.

[@MutedAndReported3032]

I kinda feel like Noelle’s mother might be the Knight.

[@sanmeiwolf]

Noelle's mother is the mayor. Rudy says he tries to shield Noelle from her mother's domineering behavior. I suspect Queen is meant to be analogous of her mother -- she wants the best for everyone, but goes about it in a tyrannical fashion. Noelle's never been the same since her sister went missing. She used to respond to Spamton's "free friend finder" e-mails asking about December, but he could never find any trace of her. The Lost Girl remains lost. Kris hasn't been the same lately either. They used to come over to Noelle's house to play the piano all the time...

[@Myriachan]

Something the video missed is that if you interact with the children’s toy in the hospital lobby, the blue bead has broken off and detached. So the beads somehow represent characters in this world. It also suggests that their lives are all on rails.

[@magtea3836]

or pipis

[@e5858]

That really ties in with the game’s theme of being controlled

[@S0fizzy]

Also I think you can play with it in the first chapter, basically us or Kris (probably us) is playing with there lives

[@meanpersona4686]

Have you noticed when Kris is about to seal the fountain, Spamton interrupts with "NOT" like he knows what the Narrator is saying?

[@vierzehn575]

alternatively he faked being the narrator

[@Lars_Hermsen]

well he is aware that he's in a game so it might not be that farfetched

[@SkySaito]

He managed to grasp a peak into [Heaven], only to fall back into darkness

[@anonimkullanc489]

The true narrator

[@meanpersona4686]

@@vierzehn575 yeah it might be it, but I kinda thought it was weird

[@piccolofan24]

I haven’t seen anyone talk about this yet, but there’s another thing in the Snowgrave Route that’s pretty disturbing: the Puppet Scarf. After you defeat Spamton NEO in this route and return to Castle Town, you have a new item in your inventory called a Puppet Scarf. Flavor text just says that it’s a scarf made of “strange things”, and Susie calls it creepy if you try to equip it onto her. Considering that Spamton dies due to Noelle’s Iceshock, he wouldn’t have had the opportunity to give you anything. The implication here being that the Puppet Scarf is Spamton’s body, that you took with you before you closed the fountain. You literally make Ralsei use Spamton’s corpse as a weapon. That’s… pretty messed up.

[@wildberrysherbert3803]

You also get it if you beat Spamton Neo violently on the normal route.

[@sheogorath6834]

Puppet Scarf is literally made up of the strings of Spanton NEO.

[@GoldChipz]

@@sheogorath6834 *Spamton I win >:D

[@projectTyrasa]

To be fair Spamton Neo is the Jevil of Chapter 2 just like if you beat Jevil Violently you get the Devilknife which if you try to drop it Jevil comments on dropping Him. So Big Side Bosses like that appear to become weapons if beaten with Violence

[@dweebicusmaximus]

It’s probably woven from the strings that hold him up

[@zahiar]

The Snowgrave route is extremely uncomfortable. It’s so… forceful. It feels… so controlling. Like a nightmare relationship

[@Broomer52]

More than a nightmare relationship. The horrible relationship is only stage 1 of the disturbing factor.in this route you’ve fully seized control of Kris unlike the normal route where control is shared. Kris makes no responses to anyone or emotional reaction like they normally would and talks in a cold robotic tone. Then comes where it evolves into a total nightmare where Noelle isn’t safe in her own head, learning you can somehow read her mind, even when Kris is downed she can still hear the voices in her head. Kris becomes a literal demon to her and even after being convinced it’s a dream is still so traumatized that she fears Kris on sight.

[@anamariaramirez9341]

And we're the ones pulling all the strings. 👀

[@azazelsvideos8298]

Proceed

[@fadedagony]

@@Broomer52 Proceed

[@audge-audge]

@@fadedagony Proceed

[@guriousceorge8403]

20:31 I just caught it. Birdlys expression shifts the moment Noelle uses Snowgrave, as if looking at her in horror in what she has become.

[@donovanjoseph737]

On a slightly more comedic note his axe gets surprised too

[@Zapidalacz]

I mean honestly i got giant chills from that sound effect, Noelle has a creepy expression as well using this ability. Let's not forget your party never moves when they use their attacks/abilities (I'm almost certain) and Noelle starts chaotically flying off looking like a banshee. It kinda looks similiar to how that one monster leaves when you talk to it. The one to the west of the entrance to Ralsei's castle in ch2

[@jayplays1710]

@@Zapidalacz I think birdly also got some chills

[@customarymaniac4002]

That Expression Was More Of "W-What The... N o e l l e? W h a t A r e Y o u D o i n g?"

[@ocksie]

I don't know why, but one of the things I find creepiest is that the Snowgrave spells description simply says Fatal, no other description, just, Fatal.

[@Solibrae]

It has that kind of "Dummied Out" feel, like it's the sort of unused content or a boss-only attack that the player is never meant to see or be able to use.

[@ToyFreddyGaming1987]

Fatal

[@nekonomicon2983]

Its Fatal and that's all you need to know

[@classy_cramorant9405]

Very fatal.

[@particleicicle]

ity.

[@lunekeeper]

i cant help but notice that this is the first chapter where we aren't supervised by Ralsei, who is the person who encourages you to act merciful in the first place....

[@kinaribot]

omg

[@Llama_Loca]

He encourages you but ultimately says he’s ok with whatever you want to do ( don’t know if that applies to commiting a genocide but still )

[@lunekeeper]

@@Llama_Loca true but attacking enemies in general is very different from, say, convincing your classmate to freeze everything in her path to get what she wants and potentially killing another classmate.

[@caesargale327]

Ralsei is ok with our decision because he knows that our choices doesn't matter.Little that he knows manipulating someone's decision's matter.

[@laura-ni8ym]

i'm surprised no one has mentioned Catti- at the end of the normal route, go to the town diner and ask her about Noelle, this is what she says. _"Golden hair. Starry eyes. She is the light. Laughing in the night. Taught her protection spells. Showed her occult findings. But lately, she slips...into the darkness._ _Kris. You walk among the dark. Protect her. (From Susie. I'm talking about Susie.)"_ it seems Catti knows about the dark world, and Noelle's importance to it. (but then accidentally admits that to you and covers it up with her hatrid for Susie.) it's like Catti knows that Noelle can easily fall prey to evil, and it's your job to make sure she doesn't. i wonder if Catti's dialogue changes on the Snowgrave route, if she's disappointed in you and the damage you've caused to both worlds

[@AstroAnalysis]

Catti's dialogue remains unchanged! I do personally believe Catti simply is an example of that character archetype of the psychic character who has a supernaturally good sixth sense/intuition, and as a result just strongly feels a sense of foreboding regarding Noelle. Especially since she mentions being into stuff relating to the occult. But that's just my interpretation, of course!

[@tokofukawap4055]

​@@AstroAnalysisshe's based on real practitioners of witchcraft. Like wiccans, or neo pagans.

[@angryredjuicebox6093]

As annoying as Berdley can be, seeing him trying to help Noelle after realising Kris (or I guess, you) is manipulating her makes it all the more heartbreaking when you kill him. The fact that you force Noelle, his only friend, to be the one to do it too- god, who'd have thought Berdley of all characters would end up breaking me.

[@youngjellyfish8694]

as queen puts it: "there's nothing wrong with him, he's just annoying." He never really did anything wrong, and his end goal was always to protect noelle, even in the face of death.

[@jackrussell1165]

wait a minute if Berdley realy died why isn't he turned into Dust as it said in the lore of undertale monsters turn to Dust after death My theory here is that the dark worlds are a mental world for monster lightners and only Determined humans can only enter them physically (or have a human so that a monster can enter to) I know Toby said that this world is deferent from Undertale but it's just theory

[@nonymouswisp8176]

@@jackrussell1165 he's downed like the amalgamates before the experiments, basically a coma

[@Aisubun]

It's awful that when his concern is visibly, wholly genuine that's when he is forced to...well...

[@remingtongagnard4442]

Berdly is top tier 👍 seeing him die to Noel is insanely brutal I had no idea it would go there

[@doggo9388]

One thing I’ve noticed that I haven’t heard others talk about in pacifist is that when you’re viewing Suzie in the Ferris wheel, no matter what options you pick for that whole scene, Suzie says something completely different than those options. I believe this is because you’re controlling Kris and not actually possessing Suzie like in the first chapter. It’s a very interesting detail.

[@nathanaelwaters2509]

To be fair you never get counrol of susie in the first chapter either

[@doggo9388]

@@nathanaelwaters2509 I thought you did, which is why Ralsei is seen talking to Kris without your knowledge. It’s been a long time though so I might’ve been wrong.

[@nathanaelwaters2509]

@@doggo9388 you do view what she is doing but you never actually get to countrol her. Closest you come in moving the heart when she fights Lancer

[@sunkiimustdie]

That means that kris ate moss in front of ralsei while susie was at the ferris wheel?

[@yourehereforthatarentyou]

@@sunkiimustdie lmao the mental image of ralsei tryna tell kris some life or death shit about how they’re possessed and kris is just staring off braindead chewing moss

[@xiiiz5703]

Now here's the thing: I don't think Berdly is dead in the traditional sense. By the rules of Undertale, (though it might be different in Delta Rune) when a monster dies it turns to dust. I was half expecting someone to touch Berdly and his dust would just fall to the floor. I think Berdly was put in a permanent coma. Similar to the incident in Undertale when some monsters, (as the game put it) "Fell Down" and how they wouldn't move, or get up until Alphys injected them with Determination.

[@triggerknight2011]

This would actually explain the whole start of the library scene as well. In the normal Route Berdley wakes up first. In this one, Noelle wakes up(since Berdley can't) and tried to wake him up. Since monsters then to dust, and he wasn't making his area look like it hadn't been touched in 20 years, she'd assume that he was still asleep. She most definitely has her doubts but without straight proof it's all gonna be a "Is it real?" Thing for her.

[@fanaticaH]

I think this may be it, specially because of you use Snowgrave on other enemies they break into pieces

[@duckiep7398]

Good point. Haven't heard many people bring up the monsters-turning-into-dust-when-they-die part

[@aland7234]

@@triggerknight2011 I think that means he can’t wake up because he’s still frozen and trapped rip

[@anonymone453]

@@duckiep7398 Have we seen it happen in Deltarune? Just because it happens in Undertale doesn't mean it works that way in Deltarune.

[@thehoodedteddy1335]

I love how chapter 2 basically completely dismisses the “it’s all Kris’s imagination and doesn’t matter” theories that annoyed me

[@alarmy5211]

literally any work of fiction when the “it’s just (Main Character)’s imagination and doesn’t mayter” theory appears: 🪦

[@thicc_kirb6391]

i hate stuff like that and the infamous "it was all a dream because we refuse to polish out the world we created and elaborate on things go fuck yourself"

[@autumn_sunday]

It's like blaming Gaster for everything 2.0 'Oh, GASTER is the knight' 'Gaster made Spamton' 'Gaster is the reason why _____ happened'

[@yaban360]

@@autumn_sunday honestly I don't get it, i do think gaster is connected to deltarune. But I don't think he'll make an direct appearance, neither as villain or ally. He exists but also doesn't. Revealing gaster ruins What made gaster, gaster. we know nothing about him but also enough about him. We don't even know for certain if the mysteryman is gaster. The way i intrepet it, gaster is a mysterious person on purpose, we can interpret him however we want, which opens the gate for many interpretations of gaster each with a different personality, (for example, we have twisted father gaster who is an awful father to papyrus and is evil, we have dadster who is the exact opposite, we have handplates gaster, which is mostly in between) you can make him connected to papyrus and sans in anyway you want, or not at all. I think it's one of those cases where a character is up for intrepation. Kinda like with frisk, but more on a massive scale. By having gaster create spamton and be responsible HE HAS TO BE REVEALED. Also gaster has a hard time existing and is to busy being scattered across space and time To do any of the things Fandom claims he does. Revealing him would be a bad idea, because he has been built up for so long that When he's revealed it won't really be satisfying. Since everyone has their own intrepation of gaster, and especially IF the mysteryman is not gaster Than the fandom will probably be more disappointed Because years worth of fanart, fanfics will be just wrong. So I don't think gaster has a big of a role as we think he does TLDR: gaster has a hard time existing so he wouldn't be able to pull off all the stunts we think he did, also not mention that would require gaster to be revealed in order, and revealing gaster is just isn't a good idea, since he's better off left a mystery

[@autumn_sunday]

@@yaban360 The theories of GASTER being everything could exist, but unless Toby or his team find a way to make everything connect, the internet would literally be kzbin.info/www/bejne/sIeoqqyKnLZ1l5o

[@dansuchansupankurampu3511]

I love how Toby fox focuses on the characters. Instead of just focusing on how in general the storyline changes, it focuses on how YOUR actions affect the characters. It recognizes that YOU are the one pulling the strings, not Kris. Everything the characters go through are determined by YOU, the player, instead of Kris. Noelle knows it’s not Kris who was pressuring and controlling her into committing all those acts of violence, the game knows exactly what you’re doing. . Your choices don’t change the ending. It changes the characters. Deltarune took a turn that I had never expected. Well done Toby Fox, you’ve done it again!

[@virtuallylightblue]

Nice pfp

[@dansuchansupankurampu3511]

@@virtuallylightblue thanks byakuren pretty

[@virtuallylightblue]

@@dansuchansupankurampu3511 Aocf worst FG tho

[@tsukihotaru8421]

ive only played two of toby foxes games (y e) and as a gamer girl who always looks for bugs and glitches, playing the game. I never felt played by a game like this before in undertale and deltarune

[@100normalhuman]

i have a feeling Toby is going to pull a loophole, similar to what you said. The ENDING wont change. Technically if you change how many characters are there and what happens LEADING UP to it, it’s still the same ending if it ends the same way. Dialogue and characters might change but if it ENDS the same way, its still one ending

[@temi19]

"DIDN'T YOU KNOW [Neo] IS FAMOUS FOR ITS HIGH DEFENSE!?" is a reference to the fact that Mettaton NEO had such a low defense in Undertale, that it was negative and actually increased attack damage coming in. Just something kinda funny.

[@WarmNitrogen]

N - Non E - Effective O - Obstacle

[@Solibrae]

It's seems that Spamton was actually talking about Mettaton's regular "Box" form, and was just mistaken. Or, things are opposite in the DELTARUNE version.

[@O-t-D]

@@Solibrae ngl there are a lot of things opposite in the deltarune, if you do a little bit of digging

[@Solibrae]

@@O-t-D There are some things that are similar, like Ralsei and Flowey saying the same things for their tutorial speeches. In this case though, Spamton was able to activate the high defence power with the NEO form, so it probably is a case of things being opposite.

[@evgenyti3250]

@@Solibrae I feel like he didn't refer to anything about Metatton and it's just a fanservice callback

[@jaredtherock5692]

I just realized that [Hyperlink Blocked] is probably Determination. The word seems to be somewhat banned in Deltarune's world. All SAVEs never describe the power of determination, and I think it's only mentioned once in Deltarune. Maybe there's a reason why that is. Maybe Gaster tried to take the player to a world without Determination, without the ability for the player themselves to kill, but as long as the player has a choice... They will find a way. Maybe Toby Fox is playing into that.

[@MetalMockingjay]

Indeed, even when Determination seems the most apropos thing to say, it simply calls it "a certain power." And whenever Spamton mentions it, everything goes dark for a moment, similar to the Gaster followers. Asgore's flower shop doesn't have a red flower in any of the soul containers either, if I recall. The space for it is instead inhabited by Asriel's signature golden flower.

[@corriganhammond4641]

In the pacifist route doesn’t the Queen reference that Lightners have Determination tho? Right before you fight her?

[@Explosives238]

More food for thought: Determination also implies *Self-determination*, the ability to make choices for yourself. Kris doesn't make choices for himself during the parts of the game where you have control, it's you, the player, that has Determination. Not Kris, and the monsters in your party only get it when they're under your direct control, as noted elsewhere that Susie doesn't respond exactly to your choices when Kris isn't present. Kris is the vector for you, the player, to use Determination to make choices, but unlike Undertale, the Determination extends to the other characters under your control too.

[@jaredtherock5692]

@@corriganhammond4641 Yes, but to my knowledge, never before that point.

[@sheogorath6834]

Trying to put "Determination" in place of the different [Hyperlink Blocked] doesn't make sense, so I don't think so.

[@xenten9686]

40:08 The trash can being lonely is probably referring to the fact that he is the only survivor as revealed later in the darkworld hometown where queen asks where is everyone and the trashcan reveals themselves as the only one who made it.

[@flydrop8822]

Sorry to disappoint but it isn't, that text is the same in a normal route. It's just a reference to Trashy not being friend's with anybody

[@SarahSoupster]

@@flydrop8822I think it’s more of a double meaning, obviously it also means he’s a bin and no one likes him, but being one of the only survivors and being forced to watch everyone around you die? It’d be pretty lonely

[@raresbucataru5327]

I think it also refers to Spamton Neo's line in the Weird Route final boss where he says you're calling out for your lost friends at the bottom of a trashcan(as he likely once did). Trashcans and lack of friends seem to have a connection in this universe.

[@JawnGG]

I'm pretty sure Berdly is really dead. If you fight against the queen you get an alternate scene where Berdly frees himself and hurts his arm badly in the process. When he wakes up he cannot move his arm. Interested to see how this will play out.

[@ZedDevStuff]

Assuming Deltarune shares some rules with Undertale, if he was dead, his body would've turned to dust or melted, i think he is in a weird state where his soul exists but is either empty or useless

[@natereynolds2783]

@@ZedDevStuff "Fallen down." In Undertale, that means they have a matter of days before they fully die. It's incurable in the story. Then there's the closet, I'm pretty sure Kris stuffed the body there. Chances are someone is going to open the closet and find the massive pile of dust. What a terrifying scene for a monster.

[@HarpSeel]

@@natereynolds2783 what’s the difference between dust and monster dust? Nothing in undertake or deltarune seems to clarify that meaning that someone could’ve thought that dust just got stuck in the electronics or something instead of the dark world stopping the internet as oppose to them seeing a whole ass Kentucky fried chicken meal

[@natereynolds2783]

@@HarpSeel it's gonna be the huge amount of it in a single clump that's going to be the giveaway, due to the dust being contained in the closet. Remember, they are teenagers, and given the large amount of volume, the floor will be fucking covered in it. Since it has been maintained consistently, that monster will quickly realize that is someone's remains, and that's if Berdely isn't still "Fallen Down." According to the logs in Undertale, there was enough time to get all the "fallen" and bring them to the true lab. So one, someone finds a massive pile of dust, around 100 pounds of the stuff or they find him "fallen down," and they rush him to the hospital. Either way, it will be clear that the pile of dust is the remains of a monster, due to the size of the pile.

[@natereynolds2783]

And he still fucking dies. Considering that on the Snowgrave route, the only reason he died was to try and save his friend, it is a fucking horrifying way to go out, not even including the suffocation of the ice, and being frozen alive.

[@pressftopayfrog1050]

*"c'mon, angel, you can't get stronger without good equipment"* "noelle is the angel" theorists rejoicing rn

[@KFro9k]

Damn you, MatPat!

[@Solibrae]

Maybe everyone in the Dark World being dead is the real "Angel's Heaven".

[@dibzybd9741]

Does anyone remember the prophecy of the Deltarune when it was mentioned in Undertale?

[@kevinm5940]

@@dibzybd9741 it's something along the lines of "an Angel, who has seen the surface, will arrive, and the Underground will go empty"

[@Mizar007]

Also spamton NEO's [Angel][Angel]

[@X-SPONGED]

35:36 Spamton: "Didn't you know [Neo] is famous for its high defense?" People who did the genocide run 6 years before: *_*confused psychopathic screaming*_*

[@shubatsu113]

Its a reference to mettaton neo for those who don't understand Cuz mettaton new had such bad defence

[@abdouaboud7490]

@@shubatsu113 not as bad as sans tho

[@BonazaiGirl]

Actually Mettaton NEO’s defense is supposedly super high; it’s just that you were so absurdly powerful at that point that it didn’t even matter.

[@normal_username3231]

Undertale is 6 years old? I though it was at least 3

[@kirbywithaknifeisawesome6028]

@@normal_username3231 came out in 2015

[@avena7506]

The fact that Berdly fights harder in the Snowgrave route is the most horrific part to me. it's as if he knows something terrible is about to happen. Not to him but Noelle...

[@cherishangelpay-an8170]

To me, that one ability in Thorn Ring called "Trance", which you see as you equip it on Noelle, in my opinion, is why Noelle seemed to like lose herself for a moment while doing her SnowGrave skill. Its so creepy, but this is just my theory.

[@Lars_Hermsen]

I think it's also why she didn't immediately recognise berdley and just assumed he was an enemy

[@josephinefeng3990]

That sounds right, but it makes me wonder what trance actually does since the sword you'll be able to get using the pure crystal and thorn ring also will give trance, but it's a Kris weapon.

[@willofthewinds3222]

@@josephinefeng3990 to be fair, he's already being piloted by you, so entering a trance wouldn't have an effect

[@pkoolaid4038]

Notice how the Thorn Ring constantly reduces Noelle's health. It reduces the TP cost of ice spells specifically. It's like the pain of the ring forces the user to remain in a trance that allows greater focus and the easier casting of more potent magic, since they're trying to find a way to stop the pain. At least that's how I see it. Another little detail is that by the point you get the Thorn Ring, it will drain Noelle's health to 55, which in Roman Numerals is LV. Yup, I love the extreme symbolism this game has.

[@sebbe44441]

@@pkoolaid4038 I don't think it stops at 55, I think it stops at 1/3rd of her max health, which just happens to be 55 here. On the other hand, if you kill every enemy up to that point, which you have to, I think you'd always be at that amount of max health? Damn, I hope that's not just a coincidence...

[@drio5180]

My friend told me there was a secret route you could get by “bringing a friend in the wrong direction.” Somehow, based off that alone, I managed to do the entire route correctly

[@andrew2044]

Well your friend was really clever in giving you an hint that spoiled literally nothing of the route itself happy for you

[@drio5180]

@@andrew2044 yeah, and it was pretty easy to figure out cause I had actually taken noelle the wrong way in my normal playthrough, but that was pacifist so I didnt try killing things heh

[@A_very_good_cheese]

I cant belive how bringing a friend in the wrong direction turned is both literal and figurative

[@theconman6505]

damn, tell your friend he's a g. that's the kind of cryptic hint that toby would stash somewhere in his games

[@indigowendigo8165]

Eh, it doesn't really seem all that hard to do in some ways. :p While doing violent and cruel things you're not supposed to do seems simple enough in theory, I suppose doing everything you're not supposed to do period kind of like The Stanley Parable might also in some ways be an easy way to figure things out. :p

[@NinF37]

the "busy becoming god, go play minecrap" is probably my favorite line in this game especially if its an intentional reference to the "Minecraft with Gadget by Mike Matei" video

[@shaffeblasta9849]

Spamton does talk about his friend Mike in one of the shop dialogues

[@Medik2]

@@shaffeblasta9849 And the use of "Brown bricks" the entire game

[@michael120.]

oh my god i didnt even realize that was a mike matei reference thats amazing

[@TheVideogamemaster9]

I'd also like to note that Mike Matei was involved in a scam to take people's money years ago, and ended up buckling under his own guilt lol

[@trashboxbobylev9900]

@@Medik2 do people realize how much power it gives to SiIvaGunner?

[@HalduBouyaNono2]

Birdly isn't just a Lightner, he's a monster. If he'd died, his body had turned into dust. Meaning he's probably more into coma or cerebral death state. Maybe he will reappear later at the hospital in the following chapters, to remind the player what a terrible person they are if they choosed the Snowgrave route

[@regulate.artificer_g23.mdctlsk]

This is Deltarune; not Undertale.

[@fx2thegoldenwarrior]

I would agree, but monsters seem to act differently in Deltarune as opposed to Undertale. I don't think we've seen any Lightner monsters die yet, but if we have, they didn't turn to dust. I swear there was a graveyard, implying bodies

[@sugarpapaelmo2004]

@@fx2thegoldenwarrior Imagine if they buried the dust, just a pile of dust in dirt

[@raikaru0]

@@fx2thegoldenwarrior The ruins is literally a catacomb in Undertale. We’ve already seen a grave for monsters in Undertale

[@Rivər]

I do hope that Toby sticks with the 'Monsters have grey souls' and 'Monsters turn to dust when they die'. It'll make this feel more like an AU that still follows the same rules as undertale. Kind of like a "What if the humans never cast the monsters out" AU.

[@dansuchansupankurampu3511]

OH YES I remembered, a while ago some deltarune stickers we’re released, one of them was of noelle saying “that’s not like you…” and I was NOT expecting it to be related to this

[@Kyezoar]

Learning about this route just filled me with dread. The Genocide Route in Undertale was your choices. Here you're forcing someone else to do your dirty work

[@JJSSBU]

Your dirty work is forcing Noelle to kill ppl (so you are actually forcing Kris)... OMG what a meta route is it

[@3ybh3lloll3hby3]

I saw some evidence Kris didn’t want to, he’s conscious through all of it. Kris showed emotion, this might mean Kris is conscious. You are forcing Kris to force Noelle to kill everything. You forced noelle to kill Berdly, it’s all so insane

[@Mas-cm6cy]

.............. i fear no man........... but that....... that thing................ it scares me.......

[@Zarkyun]

@@3ybh3lloll3hby3 Actually there is some evidence that kris wasn't entirely against the situation. It was kris who smiled when noelle was talking about finding more enemies (we the player didn't directly "command" him to). There are also dialogue hints in both chapter 1 and 2 that kris may have been manipulative (and just plain mean) to noelle in the past. There is also hints that kris may be the knight. Ending of chapter 1 has him waking up in the middle of the night putting you on lockdown and then brandishing a knife which resembles the knife hologram when the queen is talking about the knight creating the fountain. At the beginning of chapter 2 kris comments on how he had a long night when you examine the window, note that chapter 1 you go home BEFORE night time and the game ends with kris waking up in the night so that long night would not have been related to his adventure with susie but rather his actions we don't see directly after the game ends. Chapter 1 and 2 occur wither a 2 day time period and the fountain is not yet created when you explore town before bed. That means the fountain would have been created around the time where we the player are trapped in a cage. As for not recognizing Kris as the knight, well that can be explained by simply having him wear full platemail instead of his usual warrior attire. Note that another intentional alternate interpretation of their adventures is that it's all a DnD campaign with Kris as the Game Master. The GM of a DnD sessions commonly plays the role of main antagonist as well as supporting characters. So having Kris be the "plot twist" main villain makes sense from that standpoint. Though this is Toby Fox so who knows if that's where this is actually headed. That being said I think kris is just a kid who is going through a lot of issues. There is the longing for his brother, which causes the obsession with (and possibly the creation of) ralsei. Then there is a hint that kris may not like humans, may not want to be human, and/or may have specific humans that have caused him some kind of trauma. I am mainly referring to the book you can examine in the "real world" on the 2nd floor of the library. Kris slams the book shut when he sees the picture of humans. Combine that with the fact that Kris seems to be the sole human in a town of exclusively monsters and you're bound to end up with more than a few complexes. And if "monster" kids aren't too different from human kids in their thinking/actions then there is bound to be some ostracization due to fear of the unknown. I think it's very possible for kris to end up with some very dark thoughts especially if a 3rd party (like the player) is influencing him. And introverts are especially vulnerable to being taken in by negative thoughts (speaking from personal experience on this one). Of course this is all just my own speculation. And obviously some spots are just making assumptions. All this theorycrafting is just making me already impatient for chapter 3. EDIT: I had not completed the game as of writing this comment (I stopped right after leaving dark world to go back and beat spamton later). After seeing the ending my stance is split in 2. Of course I am still 50/50 that kris is running the show. But there is obviously something going on with kris andthe "gaster" door. Either kris feels he needs the soul (possibily he likes giving up control out of fear of having to make decisions). Or the other possibility that is the tie kris seems to have to the gaster door. Something happened with that place in the past, possibly gaster did something to kris to gain some level of control or possibly kris was created by gaster to be a vessel for his experiment with souls and thus influences some control over kris to make him put the soul back in. Though I'm still far more inclined to believe it's Kris having formed a dependency on the soul as a means of escape and that ghaster is just using that to conduct his experiments. Maybe gaster and kris have a deal going and is supplying them to kris like a drug. Or maybe the soul was stolen by Kris and the dialogue with ghaster is shortly before the soul gets stolen. Those are just a few possibilities floating around in my head.

[@Kayther33]

@@Zarkyun i little advice, if you are gonna write so much then separete the test more cuz my eyes got confused xd

[@mori8330]

Because there wasn't much information on it I played through it as soon as it was discovered. In my opinion it's much more messed up that the UT genocide run, and I honestly can't imagine how bad the consequences will be in further chapters, I mean, Berdly is (presumably) dead, I don't think the story can continue on like nothing happened! I just hope it hasn't messed with my files like the UT run did.

[@mayravixx25]

Well, think about it this way: Now Undyne won't be so bored as a cop anymore with nothing going on.

[@2leftthumbs]

The fact that we've seemingly killed 1 character, and completely corrupted another, with at least 3 Chapter left to play makes me wonder how wildly this game might start to branch?!

[@clover3894]

Killing in ut did not feel that bad ... but this ... T^T

[@harvey9588]

@@2leftthumbs 5* chapters left to play

[@Max-tq5fs]

What makes you think this ending will matter at all for chapter 3?

[@DarknessDpa]

I just now finally completed this and there is actually one small thing that changes by going this path. If you check the beads in the hospital main room, going things normally usually makes the dialogue about the "Beads March On" but in this path it changes to "One of the beads on the blue path is broken and tore off".

[@K1ttyGam3r]

Oh my god

[@thisisasupersayin376]

[pipis]

[@jaynenunya6070]

@@thisisasupersayin376 pipis room

[@Mikey04251]

So it wasn’t intended for that character who i assume was berdly to do something aka die

[@Hato_Joestar]

@@jaynenunya6070 pee room

[@meanyapickles]

40:10 "It's a trashcan. You get the feeling it doesn't have any friends." Isn't this a reference to that trashcan character who refuses to come join your new town unless you recruit every single enemy because it considers them all to be friends? And now all its friends are frozen?

[@simonnnnn]

I think it says the same in the normal route

[@stripschicken87]

@@simonnnnn and the locker text is still in a normal ending

[@ananimoselty2234]

The trashcan character joins your town regardless of who you recruit

[@MysteryGeek2006]

OOF that’s dark af

[@nellewoodruff6337]

You're thinking of Nubert, who's a separate npc from the trash npc

[@NeoSaturos123]

The part at 26:17 is really quite intriguing. So Ralsei asked twice "don't you wonder how they're doing in there?", seemingly fully expecting the player's viewpoint, presumably the player-controlled soul too, to go from Kris to Susie, where it fails to influence her in any way. Ralsei seems downright surprised that didn't happen, an event which would probably temporarily free Kris from player influence and awareness. Would that mean Ralsei is aware Kris is being controlled by the soul, and aware of ways to manipulate it? How can he know that? What does he intend to do with this knowledge?

[@supremeoverlord0]

It's definitely strong evidence towards Ralsei knowing about some sort of "script" and the player's attention. I'm ready to stake money on that idea. Ralsei drops way too many comments about knowing things he shouldn't, has too little background, reacts differently to things than other Darkners, to be a normal person. I definitely think Ralsei is aware of Kris being controlled. The C2 boat ride scene had so many strange comments we could reevaluate in this context. Specifically, the potentially cheeky line about just him and Kris being alone being nice (when they clearly aren't alone with the Player watching and/or alluding to conversations they have outside of the Player's eye), and his whole conversation on being Kris-like, and Ralsei-like. A big focus on identity and acting in or out of character. Suspicious, and if he knew the player was there, it makes you wonder what he was trying to accomplish with that? The fact that he keeps trying to divert the Player's attention, and is shown to trail off from conversations with the genuine Kris tells me that he is trying to do something in their best interest, because why else would he try to sneak around the Player instead of just continuing to work with their will? We'll see what he's up to.

[@ChaoticCottonClover]

That reminds me that in chapter 1, when we switched to watch Susie in the prison and then switched back to Kris, Ralsei was in the middle of talking to Kris

[@chrisdaughen5257]

@@ChaoticCottonClover Yet Kris still prefers Susie, wanting her jacket after the Spamton fight and being more comfortable saying they would take her to the festival.

[@saltwatersweets]

maybe, since there was a time where the player was watching susie instead of controlling kris, thats when ralsei figured it out

[@jolyne6012]

@@supremeoverlord0 considering that Ralsei is definitely Asriel, maybe his memories from Undertale carried over into Deltarune? especially considering Ralsei and Deltarune are both just letters switched around and i cant think of any other character that does that

[@silviaflowers9475]

In snow grave it sounds like you're playing from NOELLE'S POV. Blacking out when she can't remember things- that just gives me chills

[@silvercandra4275]

I mean... the SOUL is giving orders it seems, and Kris is a vessel even though they had a life before the events of deltrune... It's possible that we are literally controlling her and Kris at the same time.

[@dotthedot9080]

The way Toby can give us an amazing and colorful world and then DESTROY our minds with horror and terror bits Truly a great developer, not just of games, stories in general A great artist An incredible person

[@pegasusrr3156]

Remimd me of a certain series of souls

[@tszoof]

Just SEEING this route was terrifying. The original Undertale’s genocide was hard to play through, but this is another level Edit: In Undertale’s genocide it felt bad because you alone were hunting out monsters, but in Deltarune chapter 2, you have to take Noelle, someone vert innocent, and make her do all of the killing, even possibly killing berdly. (we dont know if he’s really dead) Also 1.1k likes… dang

[@Tycini1]

No, Undertale had more impact, replay that

[@tszoof]

@@Tycini1 I have played both, but something made this one feel a lot worse.

[@thog9501]

@@Tycini1 original genocide was less disturbing in that you just killed, and that was your sort of 'ideology'. It was no secret how bad a person you were. In this route, you make others kill for you, you separate yourself from kris yet control them. What makes this route also as impactful as the genocide route is that your decisions didn't matter in chapter 1. Chapter 1 was actually very innocent, no matter what you did, you couldn't kill and everyone was happy in the end. What I found particularly disturbing about this route was that when you reunite with susie and ralsei, they try to play out the pacifist series of events, but can not due to kris behaving completely differently.

[@Apple-wo9hg]

@@thog9501 what makes it worse is unlike undertale, in the end these choices matter and there will probably be alternate routes in the different chapters basically specially if you go genocide or pacifist. Another detail I saw someone mention was that excluding noelle, Susie and kris, there are 6 students (5 since berdly died) and there are coincidentally 5 more chapters maybe hinting you force noelle to kill everyone else fo you.

[@thog9501]

@@Apple-wo9hg well thats pretty far fetched but yeah the decisions you make are less blunt and are more twisted in the long term. It makes you the evil in the story, kris actively tries to regain control. There is no one to blame but you. This was brought up in undertale, but wasn't as significant as you didn't get an idea of how frisk usually acted and they never tried to rebel.

[@ThisIsRealFish]

Hey! Cool video, but you've seemed to have missed just a couple things... A general thing you missed was that Noelle's DEFEND changes during this route. Once she starts to do the different win animation, using DEFEND with her will change it from her turning away, protecting her head in fear, to instead summoning an ice wall in front of her. She looks more confident as she defends this way as well. Also, during the harder Berdly fight, you can still do some ACTs. One of them, you Wake Noelle. * You told Noelle to concentrate! "Concentrate on what..?" * Her MAGIC increased! You can also Glare at Berdly... * You glared at Berdly! "Wh... what!? Trying to psyche me out, Kris!?" "W-well... it's not working!" * Berdly's DEFENSE dropped! CHECKing Berdly has some unique information... * Enemy Weakness: ICE Try using your strongest ice spell. Something you also missed is that using ICESHOCK without the magic buff will do 666 damage during this fight. However, if you do it during the normal fight, it will do 667 damage. Another combat thing to note is that Noelle can't miss her basic attack, even if you don't press the button! It's like something is forcing her to hit, even if she doesn't want to. The general animation is different as well. Rather than her flailing her arm at the enemy in an attempt to hit it, looking away and covering her face, she instead does a more confident version of a basic attack, raising her arms together. (Seemingly using an ice bolt? You can't see if she shoots anything.) The most important thing you might of missed is the part where you spare Berdly. This can only be done by Glaring at him repeatedly. Noelle cannot help with this, even with N-Action. Using it will just read... * But it failed. After the normal dialogue of Berdly losing, Noelle will have something quite special to say... "..." "Kris...?" "..." "Umm, about just now..." "..." "(Seems like whatever was happening.)" "(They snapped themselves out of it...)" "(Proceed...)" "(Why... did they keep saying that...?)" "... w-wait, I get it!" "You were just trying to make Berdly mad, weren't you!?" "Come on, that's not nice, Kris." "... Though, it's not like I don't understand the feeling." "Fahahaha." "I guess we both kind of got carried away...!" "..." "(Really though, what... was I thinking?)" I've also noticed some special dialogue for aborted Pipis routes, specifically in the rings. I've always been one for flavor text, so I noticed that Susie had some interesting things to say about the rings. For the Snow Ring, Susie and then Ralsei will say... "Smells like Noelle." "Are you... proposing?" For the Freeze Ring... "Heh, you steal this? Heh." "It's beautiful..." For the Thorn Ring... "A torture device?" "..." One more thing to note on this (as I think I've now exhausted all possible options for this), when aborting the Snowgrave route, you can beat up Spamton in the following area after Berdly. When you beat him up, he has some stuff to say to you... "HEY!!! DIDN'T YOU EVER HEAR THE PHRASE, [Make Money, Not War]!" "HOW'S AN INNOCENT [Guy] LIKE ME SUPPOSED TO [Rip People Off]" WHEN KIDS LIKE YOU ARE [Beating People Up], [Spitting] IN THEIR EYES, THROWING SAND IN THEIR [Face], [Stomping] ON THEIR TOES, YANKING THEIR [Noses]" "AND NOT EVEN GIVING THEM A SINGLE CENT FOR IT!?" "YOU SHOULD HAVE DONE ALL THAT EARLIER!" "AND BEEN THE FIRST TO OWN MY [Commemorative Ring]" "TOO BAD! SEE YOU KID!" That was without buying the Thorn Ring. However, if you buy the ring and go back... "HEY!!! DIDN'T YOU EVER HEAR THE PHRASE, [Make Money, Not War]!" "HOW'S AN INNOCENT [Guy] LIKE ME SUPPOSED TO [Rip People Off]" WHEN KIDS LIKE YOU ARE [Beating People Up], [Spitting] IN THEIR EYES, THROWING SAND IN THEIR [Face], [Stomping] ON THEIR TOES, YANKING THEIR [Noses]" "AND NOT EVEN GIVING THEM A SINGLE CENT FOR IT!?" "IT DOESN'T MEAN YOU CAN BEAT ME UP, JUST BECAUSE YOU BOUGHT MY [Commemorative Ring]!" "AT LEAST BUY [2]!" "TOO BAD! SEE YOU KID!"

[@poyosaquenmedecuba]

what if you use iceshock on berdly to freeze him?

[@ThisIsRealFish]

@@poyosaquenmedecuba Iceshock can't freeze Berdly. It merely defeats him like any other attack would. You can only freeze Berdly with Snowgrave.

[@JasmineBrowneyes]

Kinda hope this gets pinned. This is some neat info.

[@milor63]

'they snapped themselves out of it' meaning that it isn't just Kris using Noelle but also some other thing makes Kris do it

[@omegasky9411]

@@milor63 Yeah, the player?

[@cloverdeityhearted8729]

whoever mentioned that ralsei might consistantly ask about susies perspective so the player can switch scenes and they can talk to kris privately...... it really gets me thinking

[@floryflor1804]

This gave me the shivers

[@yimothyyarles7854]

i find it kind of interesting that with both undertale and deltarune, the most morally good option is to not play the game at all, so you don't take over control of the main character. Like do you want me to play your game or not Toby!

[@_aWiseMan]

If he and kris end up as the antagonists it would be like sans (in the end your fighting the good guy and your really the villain)

[@NinjaPickle]

Oh no that's horrifying

[@Skywarslord]

That goat is mega sus! They know too much. Something mega changed literally over night. They act different, they look different. I don’t trust that goat.

[@Hexaludius]

Remember that during the entire route, Kris is just forced to watch as you slowly corrupt Noelle and do all that stuff

[@cookiecrisps4956]

I can't imagine how they feel. It would feel terrible to not be able to control your own movement, to not be able to control what you say, for all of that to be in someone else's hands.

[@cawareyoudoin7379]

@@cookiecrisps4956 *they. Kris is only referred to as "they" in game.

[@cookiecrisps4956]

@@cawareyoudoin7379 O right, thanks

[@cawareyoudoin7379]

@@cookiecrisps4956 np :)

[@nathannix3217]

Pretty sure the character is just a soulless vessel for the player

[@TVXDcombyElkhan]

Toriel says Asriel comes back in a week in Ch1, and each chapter seems to be a day. A week = 7 days. Asriel returns in Ch7?

[@meooowww3672]

Interesting, yeah. Also at the beginning of Ch2 , you know how Susie says "Like I could SLEEP after yesterday!?" referring to Ch1 lol... I think you're right!

[@c0smic2189]

Papyrus and Asriel Same chapter

[@rogue1248]

So if that seems to be the case, will Kris stop making fountains with Asriel finally present or will they drag him into the dark world??

[@Deadpool1804]

Was it not obvious? I thought everyone knew this already

[@mThund3R_]

He could come back as soon as chapter 5, since at the end of chapter 2 you hear that there's no school tomorrow, hinting that chapter 3 might be set on Saturday/Sunday. Also, seems like chapter 6-7 will be released separately after chapter 3-5.

[@byDanielFelix]

ok but the animation and off-key music for the snowgrave attack, plus Noelle's eyes not having pupils, is going to keep me up tonight. that shit is SO creepy

[@billnye8760]

her eyes didnt have any pipis during that attack animation

[@notbubby7408]

@@billnye8760 trol

[@pogchampaxolotl8507]

@@billnye8760 15 people liked this

[@clickpause8732]

Note of dialogue: Noelle clearly suspected Birdly was dead (why she rushed to leave), so when she says “he fell asleep too” to her dad, I believe it suggests she may feel _she_ died there too. At least, metaphorically.

[@uhuhmwell]

No matter how many times I play snowgrave, Noelle's monolouge about getting stronger in the third annoying mouse room will never not make me sick. Why? It symbolizes complacency. It's the moment in the route where, until you find burghly, she stops caring about freezing enemies and actively asks if her and Kris should find some more. I hate this moment but its integral to the story, so I never end up skipping it. TL;DR, This route makes me feel sick.

[@cookiecrisps4956]

i can't help but love you spelled it like "Burghley" lmao

[@Debater]

She was in a world she didn't understand at all, being chased by a creepy robot lady and her city of goons who she believed only wanted to use her, and the one person she knew she could trust for sure told her that killing her enemies was the way to survive here, to get strong enough to defend herself. She's not comfortable with this from the start, but trusts her friend enough to go through with it. When incidents like the Freeze Ring happen, she has to justify them to herself, because at this point she's in too deep, and still believes it's her friend telling her all of this. She has intrusive thoughts about just getting rid of Kris to make all of this stop, but understandably is horrified by them and actively tries to suppress them. When it gets to the point where you force her up against an electric fence until she freezes it, she has to convince herself that this is all for her sake, because the alternative is that the person she thought was her closest friend just threatened to fry her. By the time she gets to her monologue, she simply feels as though she's gone too far to stop, doesn't want to think about what it would mean for...all of this...to have been wrong, for nothing. It's so much easier at this point to just listen to what "Kris" is telling her, to stop thinking and just freeze, to enjoy the feeling of getting stronger, than to have to try and understand everything that's been going on, than to accept that there's no justifying the massacre you're already halfway through. The instant Noelle accepts your aid on the Snowgrave Route, her fate is sealed. She has no reason to doubt you at the start, and by the time she does, she's invested too much into this to turn back. All she can do now is try to enjoy the feeling of power you're offering, the one benefit to all of this.

[@Ugh718]

@@Debater "She was in a world she didn't understand at all, being chased by a creepy robot lady and her city of goons who she believed only wanted to use her, and the one person she knew she could trust for sure told her that killing her enemies was the way to survive here, to get strong enough to defend herself. She's not comfortable with this from the start, but trusts her friend enough to go through with it. When incidents like the Freeze Ring happen, she has to justify them to herself, because at this point she's in too deep, and still believes it's her friend telling her all of this. She has intrusive thoughts about just getting rid of Kris to make all of this stop, but understandably is horrified by them and actively tries to suppress them. When it gets to the point where you force her up against an electric fence until she freezes it, she has to convince herself that this is all for her sake, because the alternative is that the person she thought was her closest friend just threatened to fry her. By the time she gets to her monologue, she simply feels as though she's gone too far to stop, doesn't want to think about what it would mean for...all of this...to have been wrong, for nothing. It's so much easier at this point to just listen to what "Kris" is telling her, to stop thinking and just freeze, to enjoy the feeling of getting stronger, than to have to try and understand everything that's been going on, than to accept that there's no justifying the massacre you're already halfway through. The instant Noelle accepts your aid on the Snowgrave Route, her fate is sealed. She has no reason to doubt you at the start, and by the time she does, she's invested too much into this to turn back. All she can do now is try to enjoy the feeling of power you're offering, the one benefit to all of this." Jesus Christ dude you deserve a medal for this lol. Holy crap man...

[@Debater]

@@Ugh718 Thank you, I have a bit of a tendency to write essays like this in response to comments, and put effort into making sure they're well put together. I don't always get responses, but I still enjoy it.

[@locklick_6515]

28:58 it's kinda ironic how if you play the game normally, you're forced to beat up Queen here, but if you kill literally everything, you skip the confrontation by talking it out

[@yourlocaltraumademon]

Kinda like the Asgore fight. Asgore in Pacifist/Neutral route: Die Frisk I need ur soul pls thx Asgore in Genocide route: Wait let's have a cup of tea! :D

[@lucylu3342]

Queen: "Bro I saw like 70 frozen bodies on the road you came from, I'm not gonna mess with you lmao"

[@halyoalex8942]

@@lucylu3342 I LOVE how this text is honestly pretty accurate to how Queen would say that.

[@DK-ux2do]

I’m guessing queen was scared or something and meant to surrender before ralsei was going to say anything

[@Serious5GamingS5G]

IKR

[@Karubitea]

Susie being awfully cheery after coming out of Noelle's room might be a result of Noelle becoming more emboldened. It might have been an encounter that was a lot more than just a flirtatious ferris wheel ride. Susie certainly wasn't looking bashful about the encounter, but triumphant.

[@bandigustin1038]

Remember than after the ride in the normal route, Noelle is about to tell her something but she is interrupted by Berdly. Since he is dead on this route, Noelle shouldn’t have had any problems in tell Susie that something. We just have to figure out what she said because at the talk with Noelle’s father, Susie shows herself still oblivious to Noelle’s feelings. That if Susie told Kris the truth about what Noelle’s father told him. Last thing, Susie tells to Kris that shes going to tell them what happened in Noelle’s room. But she never does. Wonder why...

[@Broomer52]

I like to think Noelle told Susie about what happened and Susie came out all cheery to play it off and told her it was a dream to make her feel better

[@johnnyaddams4478]

Personally, I don't think she came out of the room actually cheery, she was just putting on one of those over the top "nothing is wrong" fronts. Considering the last time Noelle is seen before this, her eyes go full white and she begins freezing everything (at the end of it only Berdly was frozen, but you could still see snow crashing down), I think when Susie initially went in, she saw Noelle still in the aftereffects of it, told her it was a dream, and then left in shock. Considering after the interaction with Queen, she went back to see her again, I think Susie knew something was wrong with her, and left before the fountain to try and convince her everything was just a dream and figure out what happened.

[@seamonster_TSB]

at first i thought noelle froze susie and somehow faked to be susie and that's why susie was kinda sus to me i guess? idk

[@MeargleSchmeargle]

@@johnnyaddams4478 Yep, I'm kinda surprised more people don't see it this way. The way Susie rushed the topic of Noelle when she came out of the room just screams "Everything is perfectly fine" kind of damage control. She definitely looked and sounded shaken up here.

[@Rukir]

I'm pretty sure right as you cross the electric gate Noelle does her walking animation in place for a split second, signifying that yeah, she was about to move.

[@DragoonBB]

She actually does do it as a prank in the normal route if you try to electrocute her.

[@tech6hutch]

@@DragoonBB not when you’re actually in range of the lightning tho.

[@Why-wd3zg]

@@DragoonBB I feel like it just means something different in this route.

[@MeargleSchmeargle]

The way Susie bursts out of Noelle's room and just says "All right, let's get going!" Has me strongly feeling that Susie went in, saw some shit going down with Noelle, and was really shaken up by it. The fact that Susie runs back to check on her just makes it even more apparent. Big-time damage control phrases coming from Susie.

[@ValueNetwork]

One thing I like about this route is Spamton seems to be content here. His goal is to defeat you and rule the dark world, he dosent care about being free and big like in his previous version. Possibly because he’s been blinded by his success or hatred of you to the point that he believes NEO makes him free, despite it just being another puppet (something main route Spamton knows full well)

[@jlewwis1995]

Imo there's kind of a big plot hole here in this route here with spamton, in the normal route for him to get his neo body you have to go to the basement, get the empty disk, take it to him, then he uploads himself into the disk and you have to take it back to the basement and put it in but in this route you don't have to do that for him to have the body? How'd he get it? Did rouxls kard do it? To me that seems to be the implication considering he's standing in front of the cafe petrified which is presumably meant to imply that spamton told him to do that I guess since the butlers and guards are trapped in there but it isn't 100% clear that that's the case

[@oML227o]

@@jlewwis1995 the reason he can't go and get it himself is cause he was banned from queen's mansion. It seems that whatever caused the mansion to get overrun (maybe Noelle going around still freezing enemies in a trance) as well as the swatchlings being stuck in the cafe created an opening for spamton to just go in and do it himself

[@iamsargentbucky9368]

@@jlewwis1995 the queen was absent looking for Noelle and never found her, spamton did it himself.

[@boundc.napalm3084]

Small detail: When Noelle casts Snowgrave, Berdly becomes completely mortified and gobsmacked watching her cast it. Probably something you all noticed but hey it's a detail

[@MadWeegee]

Cool, I actually didn't notice that!

[@kouichi_potato]

a really cool detail!

[@t0kichii]

FLABBERGASTED

[@oleanderkazzy_]

Bro was appalled

[@JV-Jaye]

Seeing everything, the one thing I'm wondering is, why did Noelle's dad act differently. In the original route, he playfully threatens Susie when Noelle runs out, in this route he actually calls her over to talk as Kris walks out. I have two mini theories. The first is that he noticed Noelle's sudden change in demeanor, and I imagine the only reason he noticed is because he noticed Kris was acting differently the day before. He likely called Susie over to ask if she's noticed anything strange about them, Susie could've been lying when she said what they were talking about as we didn't hear the conversation. The second theory is that rather than the original route where Noelle runs away shy from Susie, he sees that Noelle is more confident and figures that Susie migut actually be a good influence on Noelle, thus having more trust in Susie and Noelle dating. Either way he clearly noticed something

[@conejitorosada2326]

I feel like it's the latter than the former, but we aren't entirely sure

[@bandigustin1038]

The second definitely is more innocent and hopeful

[@infinityheart_tm9270]

It could be that he doesn’t believe that he’ll be able to make it and wants to let Susie know what Noelle would enjoy from her.

[@weedlechu]

I know most things in these games have been intentional from a lore standpoint so far, but I took it as needing a reason for Susie to be away from Kris so when they walk out of the room they can be alone with Noelle. Maybe I wasn’t reading into it enough but I took it more at face value in that way

[@laura-ni8ym]

Noelle is the most interesting character i have ever seen. there's so many layers to her psychology that she feels like a real, breathing person trapped in the confines of a video game

[@Whispernyan]

I found something interesting, if you start a snowgrave run, but never get the ring and leave the run by not killing Berdly, Spamton gets unique dialogue if you defeat his boss fight by attacking him, ending with him complaining that you should have brought his ring.

[@epigone1796]

AFAIK, Spamton says that after any "rude" (Can't call it "genocide") fight with his NEO form. Just deplete his HP bar. There is no need to hurt someone except Spamton to get that info from him. He really wants you to receive that [[commemorative ring]] and transmit 1997 KROMER, but hey - you really become a BIG SHOT, ain'tcha? The one right in the vitals.

[@thatonepokemonwhateveritwa8371]

@@epigone1796 Yeah but the line changes if you do buy his ring to him complaining that he sold you the ring and this is how you repay him (or something along those lines)

[@Pilachio]

@@thatonepokemonwhateveritwa8371 not only that, but he complains that you should have at least bought 2 rings.

[@CjJello]

I’m worried about what happened to “Dess,” Noelle’s sibling. I can’t quite put it into words, but I feel like Snowgrave is a little more than just some spell.

[@coffeetoffee0x019]

Her name is December, i think? I don't know, but it's something sus

[@Mas-cm6cy]

........... death by ice............. shit just got.............. terrifieing

[@CjJello]

Yeah, it's all so worrying. Just hard to shake the feeling there's something deeper here

[@NWolfsson]

Oh damn, *that's* why she failed her spelling and there's a section with plates spelling December?! (Also, I figured her calendar was always on the 25th of the Last Month [December] because she's called Noelle, as in Noël, Christmas in French... May be that some terrible things also happened a 25th December...)

[@epigone1796]

I'm worried about what happened to Mike... Also, I don't know who is this, and why Spamton looks so sad when he says that. Nah, I remembered something better. KEYGEN

[@NonApplicable1983]

You can see Noelle’s feet move when she’s thinking about stepping off the switch.

[@rubywhistler869]

I think it’s interesting that Kris’ whole power comes from their “SOUL shining its power” onto the party members. You know… the soul we control? That tells people how to ACT and gives commands? I don’t think that’s a coincidence. We’re the ones giving Kris the power to act with other party members, and with Noelle, this is an extension of that ability.

[@tearsofthekingdom9062]

I think that we are needed though, because when Kris takes us out kris is a zombie, barely being able to do anything

[@Ammiteur9]

Everytime the game shifts from Susie's perspective back to Kris' Ralsei sais something like: "that's why". But this does not have much to do with what happened in the Susie sequence. I think Ralsei knows that we somewhat control Kris and uses the time the player is not watching to really talk to Kris.

[@tomtoms8480]

I agree, I’m curious how the player vs character dynamic is going to unfold

[@SeniorSatoru]

Daamn

[@Malex2005]

This does make sense to some extent, as we see Ralsei having at least some sort of awareness that he's in a game (explaining the battle system in Chapter 1, reminding Kris (or the player?) to save in Chapter 2). Sort of like a side effect of being a tutorial character (looking at you, Monika.)

[@sinom]

40:50 are you sure she is confident and not just terrified? In the normal route she says the only two people she can say no to are Kris and her dad. This means she's basically always being "controlled" by other people and doing what they want her to do. Especially with her what is implied to be abusive or at least overly controlling mother at home. Now one of the only two people she felt comfortable around and could say no to was literally controlling her and it is shown that that terrified her. It's much more likely that instead of her being "more confident" etc. she is simply more scared of giving up even the last bit of control she has left.

[@BalrogQuote]

Her boldness goes up throughout the route.

[@ARACHNIDPARTY]

holy shit that is TERRIFYING… toby fox im at the edge of my seat frothing at the mouth!!!

[@goldenlightning8842]

Kris made her FEEL like she was more confident. Thats what emotional manipulation does to people the people being manipulated think they are doing things they want to because its right they have more confidence to deny people and speak their feelings because the only person they take orders from is the person doing the manipulation This is why manipulation is so absolutely horrible the victims of it have a very false sense of security that even when removing the victim from the manipulator they STILL believe they need to be with that person and they are believe they are kost without the person around anymore but are shoer willing to blow off anyone else from police officers to even the closest family members (as we see with Noelle's dad) if you want a fantastic example of this just look at Harley Quinn and Joker they are the prime example of manipulation and what it does to someone hell even the Harley Quinn Show (which is a comedy) breaks that dynamic down beautifully throughout the entire first season It's WILD and this game shows that process in a slow and painful way hence why you feel like garbage playing through it In other words it beautifully written

[@Blapedred]

@@goldenlightning8842 maybe that’s why her boldness went wayyy uppp

[@goldenlightning8842]

@@Blapedred correct!

[@allwrathnograpes]

I really like how you show every way the game can branch off. Good stuff. The part where Kris made Noelle kill the shopkeep made me sick. What seems even darker to me is how your actions affect Kris's relationships, who they flirt with, etc. without their consent. Being a third party to your own life would be torture.

[@MetalMockingjay]

I think for the most part in the Neutral route, you're just suggesting things that are already characteristic of Kris. Most of the dialogue options are pretty typical of them from what we hear about their past actions and interests. The times when Kris does something unexpected, or hesitates, seem to be the only times your desires really conflict with theirs. Their extreme distress after the Spamton NEO fight, or refusal to play the piano at the hospital, for example. Otherwise Kris is still their usual quiet, somewhat mischievous self.

[@honeycomb937]

@@MetalMockingjay oo this is an interesting take!

[@morganpartida6960]

Welp... I can never look at that "hug ralsei" option the same again.

[@supremeoverlord0]

@@morganpartida6960 Right? I'm unsure if that's an in-character mischievous action that the above comment-er would agree with being an "accurate enough" suggestion for Kris, or something that they would hate. Speaking of Ralsei, I just want to know what they've been saying to Kris during the conversations away from the player's eyes (that he is obviously banking on, as shown by this Snowgrave route). He's definitely a wild card- knows about the nature of the outside world, can travel without harm between different dark worlds, and is our only supplier of ANY background information- his whole existence is tied to Kris and Susie. Barely anyone acknowledges him- he has no family or anyone who knows him. What does he know, and what's he trying to tell Kris?

[@RaspberryPastry]

It's been over a year and I'm still thinking about the dynamic between Kris/Noelle/The Player It's implied there's a weird history between Noelle and Kris already since she mentions them shaking the seats at the very top of the ferris wheel when they were kids, but I get the impression she tries to latch on to the more innocent range of memories between them and completely discard any seriously wrong moments, so the fact that something that still terrified her stays on the surface as a "pleasant" memory tells me she's suppressing something pretty traumatic between her and Kris for the sake of staying on their good side and not raising a fuss. Now imagine the weird kid that scares the crap out of you is now seemingly possessed by some kind of terrifying entity, and the logic might become that she's folding to their whims (even enthusiastically so at certain points) as a means of self preservation.

[@morgana6094]

I’m curious about what happens to Noelle when Chapter 3 begins after Snowgrave. She began to feel an unusual sense of power and motivation as she began to get stronger, began doing things on her own and beating enemies on her own, but as she realizes things weren’t a dream, that confidence disappears. In a sense, you traumatize her. I believe she realizes this even more if you gave Kris her watch, and that extra bit of dialogue is actually creepy.

[@lovelycupid642]

Especially with her line "I need to find out what's going on with Kris" I wonder if in chapter 3 she'll try to investigate if you did Snowgrave?

[@MadWeegee]

@@lovelycupid642 Maybe she'll catch Kris ripping their soul out and find out that they're being controlled too

[@bandigustin1038]

“If” continues after Snowgrave

[@ace_can7]

But how would chapter 3 play put IF you dont take the snowgrave route? Berdly would still be alive and noelle wouldnt be traumatized but wont be as bold anymore (?)

[@morgana6094]

@@ace_can7 if you don’t take the Snowgrave route, I’d imagine you’d just have a normal route to play like you do in Chapter 2. The Snowgrave Route cut more than half of the content that you’d normally see in the game, so it might apply to Chapter 3 as well.

[@NQPDust]

Now in case you were curious, destroying every single Pepis in the Pepis room does not in fact yield any secret. And yes, it did take about 30-45 mins, and no, it was not a fun or interesting experience

[@Dudeman23rd]

Can I get an F in the chat for this brave soldier

[@dead2memes2oof85]

F

[@eleena_vxx]

F

[@Grimlock-hv6vu]

F

[@Jo-xs5hm]

F

[@linkmariokirby7373]

Not gonna lie, seeing Spamton call you out on your [Total Jackass Stunts] almost makes this route worth traumatizing the deer

[@blckotaku5250]

Bro noelle a g for coming in clutch gotta show her we ain’t playing no games

[@yanfei7782]

But I like deer.

[@aobunau]

might be a bit of a sadist but i did this route to traumatize noelle just me?

[@blckotaku5250]

@@aobunau yessir same thing broski

[@aobunau]

@@blckotaku5250 glad i'm not alone