Demon: the Fallen - Dodging Mistakes

In this episode of the podcast I want to go over what I think the biggest issues with Demon: the Fallen are, offering ways of circumventing these issues and not letting them get in the way.
The game books offer a lot, but, as you will hear in the podcast, I think they overdid some aspects. They gave too much information in regards to things that are not essential for the Demon experience, from my point of view.
Worth mentioning that real life religious matters and theology fall second to the "history of the Fallen". This game, despite its sources of inspiration, is a work of fiction.
Enjoy!

[@FBI-ju5no]

It's kind of implied that lucifer invented monotheism and the abrahamic religions. So, effectively, ALL religions are false, as presented in this game. Ironically, the fallen would be atheists.

[@theoldcountry]

I can see your point, and that is indeed how the lore/history is presented in the Earthbound book, that Lucifer did, indeed, create/manipulate monotheism to combat the Archdukes and rob them of their faith, but humanity's faith in the divine has been put to use starting the Rebellion, after the Fallen were forced to draw power not from the Giver, but from mortals. In that sense, I wouldn't call the Fallen atheists, simply because that term is used to define "a person who does not believe in the existence of a god or any gods", whereas they have... "met" the Great Giver during the inception of creation and they know that faith really works, it reshapes reality and everything in it, so for them, this isn't just belief, it's undeniable fact. (until proven otherwise and made to doubt their memory, of course :P) Instead, I would call them "irreligious", precisely because the Fallen have no need for religion the way mortals understand it (though they do need worship/pacts), and in this regard, I agree again, all religions are false in the world of Demon: the Fallen. The only problem is, belief MAKES it real. Both Demon and Mage operate on the premise that reality is a consensus and humanity shapes the world and its rules to a greater or smaller extent, whether it's masses of Sleepers or the individual Awakened Mage. Since before their imprisonment in the Pit, the Fallen have been aware of humanity's potential and divine spark. So, terminology aside, I agree with you, religions as we know them make no sense to the Fallen. But hey, in the World of Darkness, even misplaced faith and seemingly absurd beliefs of any kind, if they are strong enough, will reverberate through the Umbra and will change/create/remove something from reality somewhere, whether it's immediately visible or not :D How many spirit entities has humanity either created or fed its faith to over millennia, while the Fallen were imprisoned in the Pit? And this is question I love and dread at the same time :D

[@edmoody2920]

I am so glad that I'm not the only one who thought this. Thank you.

[@theoldcountry]

Yeeey! Same here, really! I mean, I'm happy the episode was well received (judging by the number of likes), because the whole purpose of it wasn't to simply point out mistakes and laugh at the game for being silly at times, but to work around those mistakes, actually playing the game and having fun. I'm happy you left this comment. Thank you too! ;)

[@logann4735]

I made god like an abusive/toxic mother type figure. Doing things such as blame shifting, ignoring emotions, emotional manipulation and such. "Oh, your upset that I put you in timeout, but it taught you an important lesson.(timeout being the sensory deprivation). Mabey if you did what you were told, you wouldn't have been in trouble. I didn't raise you like this(etc)

[@theoldcountry]

🤯 That is... whoa! At least 1 of my characters, in a future Demon game (whenever such a game will happen), will have this view and remember the Giver as a manipulative parental figure. Can't wait to try this! I'm surprised I didn't think of this before. 🤔

[@HoriaMarchean]

The Mesopotamian names, I think, are a reference to The Exorcist, what with Pazuzu and all. 🤷‍♂️ I always thought that WoD games should be a touch more generic. Juuuuust a little bit. 😋

[@theoldcountry]

Huh, I never thought of that. :P I see what you mean, but I really wish they'd put more thought into it. I mean, they used the names so... haphazardly. For instance, the Malefactors are named Anunnaki. Why Anunnaki? From what I know it's derived from An or Anu, who is a personification of the sky. This House, however, handled the building of the material world, and their Lores are: The Lore of Earth, The Lore of the Forge (developed after the rebellion) and the Lore of Paths. All of their Visages/Apocalyptic Forms are flightless. So... I just don't see the connection. I am open to being wrong, actually, I hope I'm wrong and the names make sense. But yes, a touch more generic, especially in this case, would have worked very well.

[@HoriaMarchean]

@@theoldcountry Well, it's literature, innit? I think WW wrote themselves into a corner with that one. Like, you want to be clever and referential and 90s goth, but then you must follow the path of 90s goth: fall into increasingly complex details that overload your product and make it overbearing to people. So there you go. But, what kind of a reply could you expect from the dude writing sword & sorcery adventures right now?

[@theoldcountry]

:)) excellent. WW and the Path of 90s Goth - a variation of the Path of Caine :)) Have fun writing them adventures :D

[@uglyweirdo1389]

As a part of the larger narrative the Demon creation lore is just as good, relevant, and most importantly just as true as all the different creation myths.

[@theoldcountry]

Ah, thank you! I know i probably shouldn't be thanking people for having similar opinions to mine, but it sure is nice too see it after hearing that "The Demon creation myth is an affront to WoD cosmology" for years 😑

[@uglyweirdo1389]

@@theoldcountry The Demon creation myths are the purest expression of WoD cosmology design principles. The cosmologies exist,, for real, simultaneously, concurrent, and in complete opposition to each other. The Apocalypse isn't when reality is unmade and life destroyed. It's when all the relevant parties agree on which cosmology is the REALEST and the effects retroactively alter the cause. Anybody saying one is more valid than another just don't understand the rules and story.

[@Neutral_Tired]

I would probably rule that pretty much all religions are based on powerful angels, as opposed to the creator themself, rather than the creations of mad cults.

[@theoldcountry]

Going that route is totally an option, though it would contradict a few things (not that the contradiction is in itself bad). 🤔 Loyalist Angels get their power from the Giver. It is only the Rebels who need faith from mortals, so, within this setting, all religions are born of the Fallen. This does not, however, mean that belief and faith, in themselves, are bad. It is precisely these elements that make humanity amazing, and powerful. Also, Hunter might just disagree and say that at least 2 Loyalists are still around 😋 The Demon setting does seem to go the "religion is bad" route, but each storyteller is, ultimately, free to morph the lore into something else, maybe even presenting multiple, conflicting views, with no clear answer, so players get to decide what it means for themselves 😉

[@tzaphkielconficturus7136]

Yes, I find the names particularly strange. The language the Fallen speak with each other is allegedly unpronounceable for humans, so why do things have "proper" names, in the books, at all? The names of the houses and such would HAVE to be descriptions, in so far as the players could refer to them. Certainly, these things would have names in the language of the Fallen, but it is utterly silly to have them be Human words. I understand that they're allegedly named after Fallen, by their celestial names, but why wouldn't these things just have names in the secret spooky demon programming language they speak to each other, anyway?

[@theoldcountry]

At least, if the names are indeed a flawed, human translations of the terms Michael uttered when he bestowed the curse, the game should have stated it as such. I think that would've been a very nice explanation for why these are the current names of the Houses. I definitely would have included such information in the core book, because it would have taken a single paragraph. When it comes to Celestial names, Invocation is predominantly a stand-alone ability, something that isn't language dependent, but utterance dependent. What do I mean by that? If someone cannot speak physically, mechanically, they cannot invoke, but if they can, they can do so using any language :D I see Celestial names working for the same reason fragments of True Name also have power and alert the Fallen that they name is being called out, even if the summoner doesn't possess the entire name, from first syllable to last. So even if they are approximations or flawed translations of the actual Celestial Name, the intention and knowledge behind the invocation makes it work. Yeah, given that names are such a core component of the game, I think a little more attention to them would have went a long way 🤔 EDIT: also, in regards to True Names, given that descriptors are often used to invoke a certain aspect of a deity (because some have many forms and a ton of descriptors), I can totally see that even without the ability to pronounce the actual name, the intent I mentioned earlier coupled with the descriptor would work at least to a satisfactory degree. The descriptor reaffirms and attests the caller's knowledge of who is being called, even if the name is an approximation/translation. I've often imagined each syllable of the True Name would be one such descriptor. So the calling of a True Name would be translated into something like: "I call upon thee, Shraxiel, warden of the late summer woods and fields, who runs with the beasts of the lands at dawn, on 6 hooved legs, apotropaic, who's blessing is vitality and strength, who's wrath is a like a pack of wolves closing in, mother of deer, shaper of antlers, seeker of sweet-water springs, who rests with nightfall and who's pollen invites sleep." - something like that, for a basic Devourer, 11 syllables 🤔

[@maniacgm503]

Lol. This vid isn’t about mistakes the devs made. It’s just bitching about stuff you don’t like.

[@theoldcountry]

Hey, ahm, I'm not even going to pretend not to have my own biases or preferences, but I also like to think the issues presented in this video are to be considered, and are not just a form of "bitching". You don't consider a piece of writing that actively deterred potential players from playing the game a mistake on behalf of the writers? Because that's exactly what the first chapters of the Earthbound book do, and not only are they poorly written, but as I mentioned, they don't contribute much to the game overall. You don't consider a metaplot that is carried all the way into the final nights, that actively revolves around an NPC more than the protagonists, suboptimal for a roleplaying game in which players characters are the protagonists? You don't think the writers using the exact same name for two completely distinct things an issue? This shows they got very sloppy and uncreative with the names, which, according to the setting's own internal logic, are an important aspect of the game. What, are you going to tell me Belphigor and Belphegor, Dagan and Dagon, Kishar and Kishar isn't confusing or lazy, when there's so many other names they could've used? What about the misuse of the names of ancient deities? Ultimately, hey, I can even agree with the potential accusation that I'm nitpicking here, and I do mention in the episode that I like Demon just the way it is, because I really enjoy this game and I've had very nice experiences reading and playing it, however, I think pointing out things that are suboptimal, poorly written, do not contribute to the gaming experience, or are damn right erroneous, is more than... "bitching", but rather illustrates the fact that I am baffled by certain design choices I don't really understand, and find unnecessary. But, I am curious about what you think about this. Maybe your experiences with the game are different than mine in these regards. If you have the time and are willing to make your opinion known, let me know your thoughts on this matter 😉