Denominational Differences: should I be Catholic or Anglican? with Tom "NT" Wright & Mike Bird

[@mirando100]

Interesting interview. I will share with my Anglicans and Methodists friends. So much anti catholicism among methodists, and here we have the biggest authority in Anglicanism, saying that there is no problem in adopting different traditions.

[@lcraver4797]

Much as I love what NT Wright has to say it doesn't match my experience - I had an evangelical background while my wife was a lapsed Catholic. We ended up in a fairly conservative Anglican church and our children were baptised there. So far so good - but we had a change of bishop and the new bishop was one of the most "liberal" in the Anglican Communion and we were told we had to accept same sex unions in our local church - so left. No question Holy Communion at Westminster Abbey in June 2016 was one of the high points of my Christian experience but I have definitely been struggling since her passing in March 2022. My Christian experience can't be solely KZbin based - and much as I honor my very Catholic mother-in-law I dare not pray for my wife - that is forbidden - though there is a place in the woods near my home I go to give thanks for her and to pray for my children. I know my mother in law would love me to become a Catholic but there are specific elements in Catholicism that can't be embraced. I do pray for my inlaws but that's not based on Rome, Canterbury or anyone else but Christ alone. As MIke says, good works are not the cause of one's salvation but the living proof of it.

[@andrewcolquhoun3478]

Thank you for sharing your experience. Why do you say that praying for your wife is forbidden?

[@anthonywhitney634]

One must bear in mind, when considering whether one can attend a Catholic church whilst keeping mental 'asterix's', is that according to the Catholic church, for you to be a fully fledged member you cannot have any asterixs. You have to agree to everything they teach and all their dogmas. And so personally that would eventually become a big issue for me, if not straight away. If logistics are an issue, plenty of Protestant church's have Sunday night services.

[@marksmale827]

I thought the Eucharist was the central act of Christian worship, not morning or evening prayer.

[@stephenbailey9969]

Discussing commonality with evangelicals regarding prayer and Bible reading. But you are correct, for Anglicans the Eucharist is central.

[@Obilisk18]

I love N.T. Wright. His work on justification is, ultimately, what led me to become Catholic (though it took ~15 years). But I'm pretty surprised that one of the options he recommends here is "get baptized outside of the Catholic Church and see if your wife's parish will let you receive the eucharist anyway". I'm sure he's right that plenty of Catholic priests would quietly say, "yes, you can receive". But surely there's something dishonest about knowing that the Church thinks you can't and exploiting the opinions of an individual priest to defy it? I attended non-denom/Baptist churches, and Catholic masses, for 16 years, taking communion at the former - right up until I decided I had to be received into the Catholic Church. At which point, I went without any communion as I spent several months in an OCIA class before being confirmed last Easter. Surely that's the right way to do things. And if you can't give the assent of faith (even if it's, on some issues, "I don't understand how this is but I trust") to what a Church believes you should give the assent of faith to, you should remain as much on the outside as the Church requires. Which, really, just extends to the sacramental life. A Protestant husband of a Catholic wife can in good conscience participate in every aspect of Catholic life except for the sacramental. And that's what my advice would be- if you can't accept the faith, receive a trinitarian baptism from a Protestant church, attend mass with your family (and, if they're up for it, have them attend a Protestant church with you) and keep learning.

[@ricksonora6656]

Scripture says Christ’s sacrifice was once. Catholics say it continues in the mass. Hebrews says that recrucifying Christ is apostasy and such people cannot be renewed again to repentance. They are like chaff that is for only to be burned. No Bible/believing Christian could participate in the mass in good conscience.

[@SibleySteve]

My experience in rural communities in Baptist, Catholic and Episcopal spaces is that the Catholic faith weaponizes the sacraments to control people, whereas Protestants are less inclined to “refuse, withhold or prevent” based on ritual confession of sins to a priest. The major doctrine that grounds me in the Protestant faith is the priesthood of all believers, confessing sins to each other not to a professional priest but to the brother I have sinned against, as the preparation for receiving the Eucharist. From a very early age I have included Catholics and all trinitarians in my family of faith and never excluded any trinitarian, and I would appreciate the same courtesy to be extended by Catholics to other trinitarians who try to walk with the Holy Spirit to be conformed to the image of Christ - in thanksgiving and love and mercy and kindness Galatians 5 people - love, joy, peace, long suffering, gentleness, goodness, kindness, meekness, faithfulness and self-control when the Spirit guides our steps.

[@rafaelprado1042]

This video should seen by every evangelical person in the world, so they can understand faith and works.

[@stephenbailey9969]

The covenant in his blood brings the assurance of salvation here and now. "There is now therefore no condemnation..." (Romans 8:1) The Spirit thus integrates our being in Christ: thoughts, words, and deeds. It is our task to listen to His voice and follow.

[@shelleyhender8537]

Well stated! Last night I spent 2 hours exchanging messages with Catholics, Eastern Orthodox, and Protestants on this very subject. After reading comments on a Protestant channel with the vast majority of subscribers being Catholic and Orthodox, I was deeply disturbed by the number of cruel texts…frequently anathematizing Protestants by Catholics! I truly believe it grieves God, and discourages others from considering Christianity, when they witness us condemning one another! For we will be judged or condemned by others, based on our thoughts, deeds, and words! But, most importantly, we will have to answer to the Lord one day, and I never wish Him to ask why my actions or tongue discouraged nonbelievers from seeking salvation, nor caused a division between our brothers and sisters in the global church! For if we wish to be forgiven, we must forgive. We are to follow Christ’s example in how we conduct ourselves…treating both those we love and our enemies in an honourable and respectable manner, as the Lord commanded us to do: Love our our neighbours and our enemies; doing onto others as we wish them to do to us; we are commanded to love one another as Christ loves the Church. Recently, many podcasters have been commenting on Wesley Huff’s calm and gracious demeanor towards others. Personally, I bewildered by such claims, as I have grown up in Canada and that’s how the vast majority of us treat one another. Secondly, being raised in a Christian home, I always took it for granted that Scripture states we must show others respect and kindness - regardless of how someone behaves towards us. Thank you for mentioning Romans 8:1, as we all need reminders from time to time! Perhaps this Scriptural reference will encourage the greater “Body of Christ” make a greater effort in stilling our tongue, guarding our actions, join together in serving God and humanity, be a better witness so others will seek Truth and Salvation in our Messiah. Many Blessings!❤xx🇨🇦xx❤

[@marksmale827]

There is this idea that evangelicalism in practice absolves us from the need to do good works. What a great idea! One accepts Christ as "personal Saviour and Lord" and we are automatically saved, regardless of anything we do - or don't do - in the rest of our lives. We are free to do exactly as we please, provided that we don't commit gross sins like theft and murder. Why bother to take that person whose car has run out of petrol to the nearest garage and back with a can of fuel? We're saved regardless. And for the "unsaved" who have not accepted Christ as "personal Saviour and Lord", any good works they may do in their lives have no salvific value and are apparently worthless in the sight of almighty God.

[@rexlion4510]

It seems to me that Romans 1 & 2 are where Paul is "building a case" for why we need the gift of God's grace to justify us. This argument culminates in Romans 3:10-20. Without God's grace, we all would be judged according to our works, and we all would be judged unrighteous. But through faith in Christ, God counts righteousness _apart from works_ to the believer (Rom. 3:21-5:19). Thus it is erroneous to pick Romans 2 out of context as a reason why _believers_ will be judged according to our works; Romans 2 applies to _the unregenerate._ NT's reasoning clouds the Gospel message of salvation by grace through faith and not through works, a message which is make clear in John 3:14-18; John 6:28-47; Mark 16:16; Romans 10:9-13; Galatians 3:1-14; and Ephesians 2:8-10. Although we are called by God to fulfill the works which He foreordained for us to walk in, those works are not our own; they are the good fruit borne by the indwelling Holy Spirit as He guides and enables us to love & obey unselfishly. (This, BTW, stands in strong contrast to the Roman Catholic doctrine that, through these works, one can merit for himself the graces he needs for eternal life.)

[@NN-wc7dl]

"Should I be Catholic or Anglican?" What about neither?

[@jansongunn4214]

🤣🙌

[@pdyt2009]

It's fascinating reading all these opinions on what Catholics believe from non-Catholics. Some of whom even have the hubris to tell Catholics who express their beliefs, that they're wrong. It's like they need to make sure their bigotry has God's stamp of approval even if it doesn't. Sad really.

[@MsV-PhD]

I love this podcast but must say with respect to this episode that I want to hear more fro NT Wright and less from the podcast host

[@suzannedebusschere1607]

I tend to agree with this. At the end the host is giving quotes from Calvin and Augustine. That's not what I came to hear.

[@anthonywhitney634]

Mike Bird hardly said anything, I don't know what you're talking about.

[@catpocalypsenow8090]

Mike Bird is a great scholar too.

[@rexlion4510]

NT describes the reality of the Roman Catholic world: most Catholics are not "good Catholics" who believe all of the RC dogmas, even though the RCC requires belief in the dogmas as a salvific matter. As a former cradle Catholic, I do not believe several of their dogmas and so I could never in good conscience return to the Roman church. My greatest disagreement is with their dogma of Transubstantiation, which leads the Catholic Church to teach their laity to worship the Eucharist; it seems heinous and contrary to Exodus 20:4-5 to direct actual worship toward the man-made ("graven") image of a bread wafer as Almighty God.

[@pdyt2009]

And yet it doesn't. The presence of the host is a sign of God's presence, not actually God. Funny how that works, eh? :-(

[@rexlion4510]

@@pdyt2009 The Catholic Church does not teach one to worship "God's presence signified by the presence of the host." The Catholic Church teaches their laity to worship the Eucharist itself, and the whole of the Eucharist inescapably is part substance and part accidents in RC theology. The accidents are not separated or separable from the substance; they are one. CCC 1378: “Worship of the Eucharist...The Catholic Church...offers to the sacrament of the Eucharist the cult of adoration...” Funny how the official Catholic doctrine works against your slippery reasoning, eh?

[@Starchaser63]

Aren't Denominations man made ! and not ordained or have God's blessing 🙏

[@shelleyhender8537]

You can say that all religions are “man made”, it’s the dogma and practice that reveals what we believe. The Trinity is neither a dogma nor a religion. However, Christ, the Apostles, and Church Fathers did follow doctrine layed out by the Lord in Scripture, and through our Messiah’s example while on this earth. Jesus and the Apostles also went to the Temple, which isn’t something we currently practice…partly due to the destruction of the Temple in 70AD, as well, Gentiles and the Jewish Remnant is spread throughout the world, which is why Christ said, “Where 2 or more are gathered in my name, there I am also”. Finally, we constructed churches, so we can gather and worship God together, just as the disciples did 2 Millenia ago. Furthermore, we should be worshiping, praying, and fasting regularly - which sometimes means Sunday to Saturday, Lent, Feast days and Fasting periods. Many Blesdings!❤xx

[@tomrhodes1629]

I'm the prophesied return of the biblical prophet Elijah (not that you should believe it, as you have no good reason to). Seek for yourself, as I can tell you that most of the Christian denominations don't even know or teach the true "Gospel" ("GOOD NEWS") of Jesus Christ, which is actually quite simple and quite the opposite of Paul's false, judgmental "gospel." "THE KINGDOM OF GOD IS WITHIN YOU, " regardless of what you believe, and you can never change that fact! Alan Watts was an Anglican who found the way, and its fantastic if they allow you to seek for yourself like that. I was raised Catholic, and they wisely emphasize LOVE (while the Protestants made the HUGE error of emphasizing belief). If GOD judged us, let alone judged us based on our BELIEFS, that would be an insane god! The judgmental god is "the god of this world," "satan," the selfish human EGO. And belief in this god has led many Christians to elect an anti-Christ to lead them! Yes, it's that time, folks! But you'll find peace of mind when you find Truth, which is now readily available to all who seek.

[@RetroLiveStreamStudio-nu2yf]

Poor arguments. Two strawman in my opinion