Why Is It So Hard To Make Games On Rails?

[@egebamyasi2929]

Comms chatter is underappreciated. It's what makes Star Fox and Kid Icarus Uprising so memorable to me. The labyrinth/illusion stage in KI:U is amazing.

[@AnotherDuck]

Chatter in Uprising is the bane to clearing the stages in any timely manner.

[@jasongibson1225]

Hearing the comm chatter in Starfox N64 was the first time I heard voice acting in a video game, and that was mind-blowing to me as a kid.

[@dudestep]

The dialogue in Star Fox helps make the levels really feel cinematic as unexpected things happen, team mates create plans that and you get some special guests visiting you. It makes the "levels" feel like "missions".

[@hahasamian8010]

@@AnotherDuck I don't see what you mean, it's properly timed for any normal player I think. Unless you're massively underchallenging yourself, like playing the entire game on 2.0 difficulty or something. The only issue is during a number of boss fights, you'll definitely miss things there. The game really rewards you for replaying stages anyway though, so I just find anything I missed on one of those repeats.

[@hahasamian8010]

My hecking keyboard making that say "properly ruined" instead of "properly timed"

[@Kyotosomo]

I guess it doesn't limit movement enough to count but I always consider vertically scrolling bullet hells to be on rails shooters and that genre still is decently popular.

[@DesignDoc]

We debated that for a bit and yeah they pretty much are rail shooters there is a different feel thanks to the presentation. Didn't include them here to keep the scope of the episode from getting out of hand.

[@Crazybark]

2d rail shooters vs 3d rail shooters?

[@DesignDoc]

@@Crazybark Yeah it's a similar divide to the one you see between 2d and 3d platformers. Though the differences are more minute.

[@MrAsyo1]

@@DesignDoc You should check Touhou Project out if ever wanting to make a video on bullet hells

[@AnotherDuck]

I think the classical shooters limit the movement exactly the same as rail shooters with limited movement, like the Star Fox games. You pretty much have your box to move in, which is the same as with the 2D shooters. With bullet hell games, the spectacle generally comes from the bullet patterns, with some of them also having good set pieces. So as a genre, I'd say only one dimension separates them.

[@brockmckelvey7327]

I think one of the surprisingly tricky genres to design for is the Collect-a-thon Platformer. Too many people want to "capture the feel" of classic games, without actually checking whether their finished design is good on it's own.

[@lucasallen5415]

Brock you're absolutely right, the Collect-a-thon genre fell to the wayside as far as I can tell (though, to be fair, I dont have the time to play a lot of games nowadays, so there could be some really dynamite ones out that I'm just not aware of)

[@YoshiTheyosh123]

@@lucasallen5415 If you're still interested, might want to check out "A Hat in Time" then. It's fantastic.

[@Zenzuke]

Psychonauts 2

[@MasterHand4444]

One genre I’d like to see talked about is 3D arena fighters, if not just to hear someone talk about ARMS again.

[@juanrodriguez9971]

That genre is absolutely hated just because of the anime games relaying so much on it while not making anything interesting. Too bad for it tbh.

[@blueB0wser]

Virtual-On should be included in that video too.

[@Bane_Amesta]

Jojo Eyes of Heaven is just on of the first examples of how dirty they did to the genre :c

[@heroofthewild7082]

I haven't really seen many 3D arena fighters games besides Dragon ball or naruto I guess

[@Shakzor1]

@Kayden McCallum well ,there are traditional 3D fighters, like Tekken that also allow you to step up/down to dodge with the rest of the fighting being traditional two dimensional, while "3D Arena Fighter" usually is used by Bandai Namco for crap like the My Hero One Justice, One Punch Man's game, Jump Force and basically every Bandai Namco anime license game ever. There's good reason no one else is really using that format. Not sure if something like For Honor could be classified as that, but the similarities are there.

[@sunlitsonata6853]

No Kid Icarus Uprising here is kinda sad

[@ExalinExcels]

For real considering the power of flight segments are just sin and punishment. Which he did mention

[@mallow2902]

Granted, only half that game is on rails.

[@wattia9968]

Super sad, that's be the best game on rails I know

[@pedrofreitas4662]

i was about to comment this

[@DesignDoc]

We did have a whole paragraph about Kid Icarus. We tried adding it at the last minute but it got cut for time constraints, and feeling like I needed to do more research on it. It would've been a 'it's great, but MAN THOSE CONTROLS' style thing fwiw.

[@Ice-Climber]

Never thought I'd see footage of Football Manager in a Design Doc video.

[@DesignDoc]

Mike insisted on having FM and OOTP clips added somewhere over time. Now I've done it, and now I'm free.

[@Ice-Climber]

@@DesignDoc Until he gets the idea to cover it in something about simulations. ;)

[@Sparkjolteon]

Gonna second all the other comments about Kid Icarus Uprising - never played Sin and Punishment, but it sounds like a version of that with a bit less spectacle (though still enough to keep the player hyped and engaged, especially given that you're never on-rails for more than 5 minutes at a time), but also a much bigger focus on banter between the characters to carry even the slower portions of stages. It helps that the dual-screen setup lets the game include really intricate and expressive character portraits that add a lot of charm and personality to its dialogue, without actually obscuring the game screen at all.

[@jexusdomel5194]

There's also a staple mechanic of sakurais other games with betting more hearts (the currency) but also increasing the difficulty. Alongside the achievement board and different weapons gives it incredible replayability in a much more dynamic way than most of these games (also I understand why he didn't mention it, I'm just surprised why not even a bit of footage of it was shown, maybe the low resolution I dunno)

[@regamae]

I would’ve loved to see you talking about Kid Icarus: Uprising! I understand it’s not *always* an on-rails shooter, but I think that the segments it has are thematic, breathtaking, and fun!

[@cluelesswanderer]

I’ve been looking into what makes a good idle game for quite a while now and I’ve realized it’s quite tricky. You’re walking a fine line between not giving the player enough to do and having the player too engaged for it to really be an idle game. For instance I think Loop Hero is an excellent blend between idle game mechanics and roguelike rpg mechanics, but at the end of the day it’s not really an idle game exactly because you can’t leave your hero unattended for longer than a few minutes in most cases without risking them dying. The topic is especially interesting because pretty much all the best idle games are what most people would consider “time wasters” and yet some time wasters are a waste of time, so it comes down to what makes an idle game worth wasting time on.

[@3eve0n]

that's not the only fine line either. There's also the issue of how frequently new content/mechanics are introduced. go too slow and the game will get stale before players get to the new stuff, but go too fast and you'll quickly run out of new things, which will also lead to the game feeling stale after that.

[@TheSquareOnes]

I think the key for me (aside from the obvious of just having a lot of different mechanics to manage and choices to make) is having both the ability to make meaningful progress while fully idle but also plenty to do when you want to be more active for a while. Idle Wizard for example is one of the best for this, there are many opportunities in the game to go fully idle for days or even weeks in order to advance but there are also many things (the RPS orb "combat," adventures, many challenges, just micromanaging spellcasts and clicks, etc) that you can spend minutes or hours actively doing that add some actual gameplay to the game. Note that this is different from just "you progress faster while actively playing." Going fully idle for extended periods is something that should not just be expected of the average player but that is outright beneficial in the long term for various reasons (even if it's simple as clearing out achievements for passivity that will provide bonuses when you go back to being active later). It's easier said than done but a great idle game should make both the "idle" and "game" components equally present over the course of it, ideally leaving it up to the player when to switch between the two focuses.

[@WarriorZ676]

I feel like a lot of idle games fall in the mistake of not presenting to you just how stronger/richer/more numbers you are getting. Like, they will increase the number, but nothing really changes. Show me, in some way, that I'm making progress. Cookie Clicker was able to achieve that with funny news headlines showing just how crazy people are getting about cookies. Also, visual feedback. There reaches a point where the number won't increase because of how big it is. Don't do that. Also, if I leave my phone on the side, and not touch it, you have to show me it is still doing something. Like miners mining, or something spinning, anything. And that when I do start tapping/clicking/interacting with the game, things are happening faster/bigger/more frequently. One last thing. You have to keep letting people upgrade/buy/progress, even in the late game. If you leave the game off for days, then boot it up, and you are not able to do anything, it's a bad game. Same when you are actively playing. If I'm one level short of upgrading X, and I start tapping and interacting and doing stuff in the game, and after a while I still can't buy anything, it's a bad game. I might as well be tapping a static JPG image.

[@trenchcoatdoggo5185]

PvZ comes to mind...

[@dr.velious5411]

Check out Exoptable Money. If you're not squeamish I might add, it's got some stuff that is quite unsettling.

[@teasdaye]

I could see how you might have skipped this intentionally, but the only notable genre I noticed missing here was 2D shoot 'em ups. Bullet hells especially take on-rails games to a direction that's about both technical skill and spectacle, just in very different ways than the examples you gave.

[@FlameRat_YehLon]

3D and 2D on-rails should probably be considered two separate genes entirely. Bullet hell works in 2D because your movement is more confined and it's actually possible to predict the bullet path. While in 3D your movement is more freed up and since it's harder to read bullet movement, they can't be at the same density anyway, both makes bullet hell not work, and you are more likely to dodge other things instead (or reflecting against targeted/roaming projectiles).

[@aubreyh1930]

I’d consider bullet hell it’s own genre. It feels pretty different

[@Scummoner]

It would be really cool to see game's titles added when they're first shown like in GMTK! :)

[@savagegamer474]

I’d say what makes them good is that you’re always on the move and if there’s a target you really want to hit, it’s that much more challenging because it’s only on screen for a fleeting moment.

[@NeroVingian40]

Your videos are getting better, it’s more interactive, it feels like you’re actually explaining things now instead of just pointing out stuffs and moving on, and that makes it more enjoyable and educative. Keep it up, buddy!

[@Darkogazza]

Can you do a deep dive on card-based combat in video games? Triple Triad, Slay the Spire, Kingdom Hearts Chain of Memories, etc.?

[@embergamedev]

I'm currently building a game in this genre. It is so much more complicated to make a well designed game on rails and this video brought to my attention WHY my game doesn't work right. Time to make a rollercoaster thrill ride like Sayonara Wild Hearts instead of a bland Gummi Ship. It's really interesting to see how it's almost more like a cinematic experience that puts the player in control. The challenge I face is: How am I going to give the player more interesting/difficult choices that impact each situation in game? How can I build these scenes in a small scope without it feeling repetitive? And here I thought I started with a game idea with small scope...

[@Stirdix]

Not so much "game," I suppose, but as something difficult to do right: underwater levels, specifically 3D underwater levels. Something about the combination of slowness of fluid motion and difficulty of full 3D navigation* (potentially combined with a camera that doesn't work well underwater) makes it seemingly consistently a difficult thing to get right. *As contrasted what I would call "2+1D": in water, you can take any position in 3D space and stay there; in "2+1D" like most 3D games, you only have a discrete set of elevations that you can sit at (namely, on the ground). Or equivalently, in water, you can always go in any direction in 3D space, but in 2+1D, you can move in any lateral direction or jump up (or fall down). [One could similarly distinguish "2D" vs. "1+1D" if you like, but I think the difference is less dramatic, and practically speaking that usually means "top down" vs. "side-scrolling."]

[@almost_friday9745]

dusk had some very interesting water mechanics

[@N12015]

I'm thinking about water in videogames; As far as i can tell the only game who gets water right is DKC tropical freeze due to how fluid the game remains and Odyssey when you get a chip chip (otherwhise it's awful).

[@legrandliseurtri7495]

@@N12015 Tropical Freeze is the only 2d game I can think off where water levels do not harm the quality of the game.

[@namesurname6000]

While it wasn't perfect, the shell mechanics in Galaxy worked pretty well. Slimy Spring Galaxy is my favourite water level ever, especially with the theming.

[@benedict6962]

Hard to do genres? Crafting Games. Nobody can beat Gust, and we've had dozens of games that think tedium is the soul and not the thing to avoid. Shopkeeping Games. You already basically did this though. It's hilarious how many games tried to copy Reccetear but do so by taking out the talking to customers part. Army skirmishers. Most focus on the economic building up of armies or narrowing power to individual leaders, but going for a straight up 30 vs 30 of different unit compositions and tactics is hard. Drawing games. Create your own monster, draw up magic circles, gesture tactical commands. A design AND hardware problem to solve.

[@revimfadli4666]

The last one is basically a _way_ overdue ChalkZone game

[@musikalniyfanboichik]

what is gust 🤔

[@enrymion9681]

@@musikalniyfanboichik Gust Co. Ltd. make the wonderful Atelier games.

[@benedict6962]

@@musikalniyfanboichik It's a game company. You can google Gust game and find your answer faster than typing up an emoji.

[@kisnettpicart7830]

The only games I appreciated with crafting elements were the 2 Summon Night: Swordcraft Story games for GBA, good stories, memorable characters, combat feels a bit flat nowadays, but boy did I try to farm every new ore for each of the 5 weapon types

[@Ichigo111293]

God, I want a Sin & Punishment 3 so badly

[@danielclemente1253]

I have some genres you Can talk in the future: -monster taming. -immersive sim. -rhythm games. -platformer fighters. -tower defense. -RTS. -heist games. -sideview rpg.

[@FalseRed7]

I think Real Time Strategy games should also be on that list.

[@Vulcanfaux]

@@FalseRed7 would be interesting to hear the video mostly be about games like age of empires and starcraft, then suddenly shift to pikmin.

[@auraguardianred4771]

I’d absolutely love to see a video by Design Doc about light gun games

[@danielclemente1253]

@@FalseRed7 added

[@auraguardianred4771]

Edit: This video actually features a lot of light gun games so never mind. Great video though!

[@Derpinator01]

An interesting topic for another video in this new series would be rhythm-based action games where you have to move and/or attack on the beat, with subjects of interest being rhythmic dungeon crawling in Crypt of the Necrodancer and rhythmic platforming in Mad Rat Dead.

[@robonerd125]

BPM: Bullets Per Minute, is another rythym game that breaks the mold, though if you play it i'd suggest turning down the level color filters, cause they are pretty nasty on default.

[@CiromBreeze]

I need to try BPM. I loved NecroDancer, Cadence of Hyrule and Mad Rat Dead, and I'd love to see more games in this niche little genre.

[@nikomiller]

Patapon series

[@ConfirmedZer0]

Thumper is pretty much described as "rhythm violence". Check it out.

[@caramip]

Tbh I’d love to see you talk about isometric turn based strategy games, bc they’re such a rare genre now & there’s so many bad ones

[@jeromealday614]

TRPGs?

[@dudestep]

Jagged Alliance 2 is my favorite game ever, theres so many systems going on in that game but they all connect in a way so logical and elegant!

[@enrymion9681]

Is the isometric qualifier necessary? Anyway would like to see that too, in particular I'd be interested in a look at how they avoid or end up making each battle take unreasonable amounts of time, for example Final Fantasy tactics games while enjoyable in other aspects are super bad at letting you do a turn quickly if you felt like it, it wasn't until I played Rondo of Swords and due to some mistake decided to just YOLO the mission into a quick win or failure that I realized how nice just having the option to do something like that was(in that game moving is attacking so you can do each turn in a few seconds if you know what you want to do or just don't care). Other games that I think did some interesting things regarding that are Into the Breach and Kamidori Alchemy Meister. Oh yeah, recently tried The Last Spell which is interesting entry into the genre in general since it's kind of like They Are Billions but instead of a rts it's a tactics RPG where using(similar in that using a few units you try to kill tons of enemies to protect your base). Haven't played it enough to really tell how I feel about it.

[@hackr6751]

Personally, I'd prefer ones that are more like vandal hearts- the multi-layered and detailed terrain, but with a moving camera so you can see everything fine.

[@twixchexmix]

might not be the best genre to make a video on, but tile matching games would be interesting to see just from the variety of approaches from older games like Puzzle Bobble, Puyo Puyo, and Tetris, to modern mobile games like Candy Crush or Bejeweled

[@camtuck]

If you're a fan of the genre and haven't played lumines, you owe it to yourself to try it.

[@twixchexmix]

@@camtuck I’m assuming you meant Lumines, which is one of the most addicting games I’ve played in a while

[@aubreyh1930]

I’d love to see someone talk about Tetris effect. It’s such a cool way to play Tetris

[@shadeblackwolf1508]

The 3d collectathon is one of my most beloved genres, even though the total number of games in it that actually work... is depressingly low. Banjo-kazooie, spyro 1 to 3, dk64.. and just like that the golden era was over. DK64 got a lot of backlash, but i think that is mostly from people who don't pick up on the well crafted main paths through each stage, and cleverly placed warps that minimise backtracking. Shoutout to Mario for doing this three times, ty for holding out in the ps2 era, and hat in time for the loving tribute. The main mistakes of this genre are in the way collecting works, as you can see in Yooka-Laylee. It completely misunderstood the purpose of the minor collectable, as the breadcrumbs leading you around the stage to each objective, and instead made the minor collectables themselves a quest to find.

[@scaryhobbit211]

I played and beat DK64 long before I got to play Banjo 1 and 2, and while I still have yet to beat 2, I actually prefer DK64 over Banjo 1. Banjo 1 feels way too small in comparison to other collectathons.

[@evanmarcus5975]

One genre that exists, but not to the extent that I would like it too in recent years is the 2D Zelda-like genre. Outside of the Ittle Dew games and Nintendo's own offerings, they're just aren't a lot of really well designed 2D adventure game puzzlers.

[@NeeldTheMaster]

One of the more niche genres is character action. The devil may cry series, bayonetta(pretty much any platinum game), ninja gaiden, god of war, nier automata, and kingdom hearts. I would love to see a video on it

[@Exel3nce]

That is niche for you . One of the Most known Genres?

[@KatieZeldaKat]

As I was watching, I got reminded of my absolute favorite on rails game, Pistol Whip. It's VR only, but is a great way to get moving, has a lot of rhythm to vary the high scoring system, and with all the weapons and modifiers, really allows for quite a bit of variety. A really great mix of shooting and music

[@DokuDoki]

I like detective games 😚 They don't always have to be about detectives, Ace Attorney and Outer Wilds come to mind, but I do so love putting together small pieces of information into a whole picture. Later Alligator subverts the expectations in which your investigation really turns out to be playing minigames with a large cast of characters, but at its core you are still putting together the 'puzzle pieces' of where does each character fit on the large family tree through paying attention to dialogue, where you met the character, etc. A bad detective game is a real miss while a good detective game is a real hit.

[@ArcCaravan]

Those got covered in "Modern Adventure Games".

[@thehearingaid]

obra dinn was marvalous. also Her story is great.

[@AnotherDuck]

@@thehearingaid At some point, I have to play those games.

[@AvalonisHere]

@@AnotherDuck Haha, we had a big disagreement about Undertale recently. Funny to see you here writing a comment that makes me say "same". I hope we both get to play more games soon.

[@AnotherDuck]

@@AvalonisHere More games = more fun.

[@ppowersteef]

My favorite on-rail game was Kid Icarus Uprising, it even had it's levels split in 2 segments, a flying part on rails, and a grounded part where you can move freely around. Both were very well executed and a lot of fun to play

[@Bluesine_R]

Sin & Punishment 1 and 2 are both excellent games with amazing boss design. It’s fun when you have to multi task when shooting/firing charge shots/using melee attack and moving or dodging attacks with your character. Sin & Punishment 1 feels like being in a dream, with how weird and specific the encounters are.

[@mads_in_zero]

What I love about Kingdom Hearts 2's Gummi Ship missions is that they really let you get as little or as much out of it as you want. You're required to complete each one at least once, but unlike KH1, you can skip over them after that immediatly. Also, the game automatically gives you new pre-built ships for each new Gummi Mission, meaning you don't _have_ to mess with the customization options to have a ship that stays competetive. But! If you enjoy the Gummi Ship missions, it turns out they're very fast paced high-score 'em ups, with a lot of rewards and a secret Gummi Ship final boss!

[@RGamer2009]

I would like to see a discussion reguarding classic citybuilders like Pharoah and Zeus. They have all but vanished in recent years, and you can talk about how hard it is to make them fun and yet deep/compelling to play.

[@cherubin7th]

This needs so much content to model or draw, because you are constantly moving. Other genres can have you be in the same few rooms for several minutes, solving a puzzle or something like that.

[@mattkuhn6634]

I'm only 20 seconds in and you're already getting a thumbs up for starting with Panzer Dragoon music. Man, those games were really the reason to own a Sega Saturn.

[@dikinebaks]

It always amazes me how rail shooters and shmups are so related yet so different

[@ender7278]

Sayonara Wild Hearts is a masterpiece.

[@MapleMilk]

I'll say that if N64 Pokemon Snap is a slow choo choo train tour, Kid Icarus: Uprising is the fastest rollercoaster in the world

[@Pichuscute]

So glad Sin & Punishment was brought up and so quickly too. Those games were so underappreciated and it's about time people get to know them more now.

[@bankuei]

Of the later light gun games, I loved Spacegun and Gunblade NY. Late in the sprite era, Road Blasters and Night Striker did a great job of taking the "mostly on the ground" racing + shooting, which culminated with the GI Joe game, where you'd get 3 players doing run and gun on a rail. For the flight stuff, I really love the Panzer Dragoon series, but I would love for them to bring back Panzer Dragoon Saga, since the RPG elements were really nice.

[@cinnamintie]

I'd love to see a vid on pet sims. From tamagochi to Chao Gardens to Nintendogs, there's good and bad qualities worth looking at. also I haven't seen a decent pet sim since nintendogs anyways, they didn't even catch well on mobile whats up with that.

[@huntert7650]

Pet sims seem to have migrated to online browser games. Don't get me wrong, I agree that a new good pet sim video game would be GREAT, but when you say pet sim nowadays people think of stuff like Neopets, Flight Rising and Lioden. It's interesting that they've moved to a format that is overall less advanced and engaging but found more success that way.

[@BonaparteBardithion]

Neopets style games aren't really pet simulators so much as monster collectors with a food and growth mechanic. I do agree pet simulators have moved away from behavioral complexity in favor of gamifying them which is more financially successful. Just look at the difference between the original P.F. Magic Catz/Dogz on PC and what it became by the time Ubisoft was publishing it. One was mostly about petting your cats and playing with toys and the other was about doing tricks for shows.

[@Naixatloz]

Browser pet games are honestly a genre of their own, and they're my favorite ultra-niche genre. I'm sure they aren't of interest to most of the people who watch this channel, but there's actually a good amount to be said about how they balance player progression and a user economy in a game that's ultimately just about collecting. There's also the issue of how lots of newer browser pet sims try to emulate the feel of Neopets and other early games in the genre (which themselves were often based on what Neopets was doing), but Neopets has always been a mountain of bad game design choices that aren't acceptable in the modern era, and shouldn't have been as accepted as they were when we were kids. It's _fascinating,_ honestly.

[@aubreyh1930]

I really wish there were more good modern pet sims. Nintendogs plus cats is great but I’d like something else

[@ianthehedgehog9327]

I find NiGHTS Into Dreams' rail system quite cool. It keeps the rail system but allows the player to control the speed of the train on the rail. This opens up a lot of new possibilities for gameplay style!

[@RedPirateMercenaries]

My favorite is S&P star successor and seeing you talk about such a criminally underrated game is exciting

[@JonathanMandrake]

This also applies to auto scroller segments in other games. For example, in SMB, the level can be a lot more boring if it isn't designed with that in mind. Having to wait doing nothing to progress is simply pretty lame. However, in these genres, this can be used in conjunction with a minimum speed, as the rising lavain SMB for example. You can go faster if you are good enough, but you are also filled with dread when the threat inches closer. The necessary speed is somewhat similar to an autoscroller, but following the path becomes part of the challenge

[@AddGaming.]

Are "runner-games" like Temple-Run, Subway surfer,... a subgenre of GoR? (idk if runner-games is the genre name)

[@ThatJoshGuy327]

I dont know if Endless Runners and On Rails Games are quite the same, given the randomness of it. Something like Mario Run or Bit Trip might fit it a little more closely, but I think games like Temple Run and Subway Surfers take themselves out of it by not having dedicated levels. Still fun games to kill some time though.

[@TigheSean]

I'd say the share a lot of DNA for sure... you could probably make a great endless runner rail-shooter hybrid. I'd buy that for a dollar... or .99c.... or purchase a few microtransactions to support the developer ;)

[@sdrawkcab_emanresu]

@@ThatJoshGuy327 I think even if the levels are set, mario run might be the farthest from an gor, because you have freedom to move within the levels, even though you can only move forward. From what i played(the demo) its even layed out, so you can take different parts with these limitations

[@nidohime6233]

I´ve remember an arcade called Ocean Hunter. It was very impressive for the time, where you shoot sharks, kraken and other sea monsters.

[@Lugmillord]

One genre that is very similar is Bullet hell. Well, it's more of a subset of rail shooters, but since you didn't mention it here, maybe it's worth its own video?

[@arnaldosantoro6812]

Maybe also rythm games like DDR or Stepmania, which are also similar

[@iaxacs3801]

If a video is done for Bullet Hell's I hope they bring up Automata cause that game did a bullet hell pretty boringly until at the very end of that game. Of course he'll have to put up a spoiler warning.

[@RobTenken]

I probably replay Starfox 64 every two or three years. Have since it came out. That game rocked my childhood.

[@Andyman620]

well one of my favorite genres that's bizarrely niche is heist games. why are there not more of them?

[@thatguy5277]

We have Payday 2, do we really need more? Apart from Payday 3 of course

[@RocketSlug]

@@thatguy5277 Monaco's immersive sim elements and wacky hijinks is worth checking out on that front

[@bryce7344]

difficult to do right

[@sunlitsonata6853]

Sly 2 and 3?

[@NostalgiaConnoisseur]

That's because they're 60% putting a team together and 40% of the villain telling you that your plan was all a part of his plan the whole time

[@zombiespartan13]

Honestly, I would love to see an on-rails high-speed plaformer similar to the Sonic Storybook Series that isn’t bogged down by bad controls or design that can destroy the pacing within a heartbeat. Some of my favorite parts from Secret Rings were the levels where you could just go really fast and watch Sonic make split-second 90° turns and the slide mechanic where if upgraded correctly, can make you invicible to enemies and oncoming obsticles and can keep up the pace if done at the right moment.

[@androsh9039]

Panzer Dragoon - it's been YEARS, and I still recognize a picture of it.

[@vini64]

I still have a tradition of dusting off my old CRT and N64 and beating Star Fox 64 every single year since the 2000s. It never gets old, never gets boring. Safe to say it's my favorite game ever.

[@iaxacs3801]

The Nier series has always loved working with different game genres appearing through them and despite it's on rails shooting in the suits Automata did it well as a breather from the rest of the action even if it was very basic.

[@Stephen-Fox]

A genre that might be interesting to see talked about in this way is Management Sims (that is, as in the likes of Sim City/Theme Hospital/Planet Coaster, not Football Manager... And I can't think of any other - The ones that had a spatial element rather than being playable spreadsheets). Was that a situation where studios with budgets stopped caring about the audience as with horror games which IIRC didn't see a decline in sales just... A decline in studios interested in making them until the indie revolution happened... or as per rail shooters where the things they were offering became easier to get from other places leading to the audience declining (Either way, we are fully in an indie boom for the genre now, so that's nice)

[@bearberserker]

What about card fighting games as a specialized genre?

[@shelby142]

Could you give some examples? When you say "card fighting games", I think of physical games like Exceed, BattleCON, Yomi, Sakura Arms, etc. I would 100% be interested in a video about them, but I'm not confident that I'm thinking of the same thing lol.

[@bearberserker]

@@shelby142 Well, there are video games for TCG's such as Yugioh, Card Fight Vanguard, and Pokemon. Some games use a system for battles like Baiten Kaitos, Culdcept, Megaman Battle Network, One Step from Eden, and Lost Kingdoms.

[@shelby142]

@@bearberserker Gotcha. My confusion was over the word "fighting", which to me specifically means a "fighting game", i.e.: en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fighting_game I don't think there's any super well established, unambiguous term for those sorts of card games (though there are some outliers among the ones you mentioned), but I'd probably say something like "Collectible Card Game", "Customizable Card Game", or "Head-to-Head Card Game", depending on which aspect you wanted to emphasize.

[@bearberserker]

@@shelby142 I think people also call them card battle. I guess I used fighting due to it being synonymous with battle.

[@AirRideMaster]

I personally refer to these types of games as "TCG RPGs because who doesn't love a bit of redundancy? I was going to mention these too - some of the YGO games are legitimately some of my favorite games ever, and PTCG GB2 is an absolutely excellent game, very fun. Also they have really good music...the good ones, at least.

[@Khud0]

Yesterday I rode a kayak (rail) in "National Geographic Explore VR", photographed penguins, and thought that it was a very original idea. But here's Design Doc introducing me to "Pokemon Snap" from 1999. XD

[@ktoon4725]

Technically not a game genre but What makes a good morality based game? Those games that have you make decisions and the ending of the game is different because of your choices. Think of Games like Undertale, Life is strange 2, BioShock, and on a more poorly executed note, games like Shadow the Hedgehog and Epic Mickey (as much as I love the ladder I can’t deny it has flaws)

[@ArcCaravan]

Project Triangle Strategy gives me hope of a morality system that's not just good vs bad.

[@pocketglove]

No game had a good morality system if it shows it to you. Most games just have a bar of good/bad. That is just bad game design.

[@lnsflare1]

Soul Sacrifice's morality system let's you not only determine what faction you ally with or how your character build develops, but also which characters you can party up with, since the Morality us determined by whether you Save or Sacrifice people (or leave the decision up to Fate) after you defeat them while they are turned into berserk monsters.

[@321cheeseman]

Favorites are the first Sin & Punishment, the first Star Fox, killer7, Panzer Dragoon Zwei, Gamera 2000, and Rez Infinite.

[@DesignDoc]

Haven't heard of Gamera 2000

[@321cheeseman]

@@DesignDoc It's a shockingly solid Panzer Dragoon clone (at times better than its obvious inspiration I would say) with hilariously bad live action cutscenes.

[@malescimmie]

Sayonara wild hearts is one of the best experience i had in the latest years

[@VoicesOfChaos]

Killer 7 and both Resident Evil Chronical games are my favorite games on rails. They are both really enjoyable!

[@leetri]

12:27 When my garbage brain subconsciously combines "Leon" and "Pigma" to "Ligma"...

[@GameGod77]

It's so sad that James McCloud died to Ligma.

[@ghostxd2276]

Ligma balls

[@Alaneeeeee]

@@GameGod77 Who the hell is James McCloud?

[@GameGod77]

@@Alaneeeeee Ligma balls

[@Alaneeeeee]

@@GameGod77 *bwoooooon*

[@Eyewarp]

So happy to see Sin & Punishment 2 get some love, especially for what I swear is one of the best water levels ever crafted. The game has some of the most wildly creative bosses I've ever seen, from the shapeshifting sea monster dude to a skeleton that tries to dunk you to death with a basketball made of flying medusa heads to a giant melting zombie cyborg that attacks you with blocks Tetris-style. And the music kicks ass, and the art style is awesome, and the motion controls work beautifully, and _GOD_ this game was awesome. I just wish it could get a sequel to better explore its characters and expand on its gameplay. While I think the Sin & Punishment universe has potential, the game's writing is messy at best. I had to read the instruction manual and check out both the American and European websites to fully get what was going on. Plus, I'll admit it could get kinda repetitive and I was disappointed with how it teased us with potential gameplay shifts that didn't go anywhere. I'm glad we got stuff like the highway level and the train segment, but I always wished I could choose which tunnel to take in the water level and get to play as the Gryphon Keeper for a bit instead of just having it drop us off at the start of the lava level. Even just some powerups or different weapons would be nice. ...sorry, I don't see this game appreciated much and I might've gone overboard.

[@classicredjello]

In terms of hyper specific genres, how about farming sims? Stardew Valley really reignited the genre, to the point that most targeted headlines I get are about "The New Stardew Valley, But With ____"

[@thomaskraus7077]

The near-future racing game. This includes games like F-Zero, WipEout, Rollcage, Podracer, and many others. This is a niche sub-genre on top of an already niche genre. This type of game was everywhere in the late-90s to early-2000s. But, today it is dead in the water with only few, dedicated indie studios keeping the spark alive. What holds a lot of this type of game back is accessibility. Racing games inherently have a lot of room for skill expression. A player that is 1% better with always beat their opponent. This can make a game intimidating for newcomers.

[@magicjohnson3121]

Don’t forget Extreme G and Fast RMX. I really love this genre. I think they could maybe not kick your butt straight away like some of those games do.

[@juanrodriguez9971]

How about talking about sideview tactical games? Games like Mutiny (nitrome), Worms, and SteamWorld Heist, I don't remember playing sideview tactical RPGs outside of those 3, and personally this is the only way I can enjoy a tactical RPG, it feels more dynamic than TRPGs on a grid, and more skill based than "keep the correct option and good luck, you only have 90% accuracy". It could be nice to see someone talking about these.

[@ShundoRaud]

Star Fox 64 is a game I've done a weekly playthrough of since I was a kid and there are so many reasons why. Aside from just being a fun shoot 'em up, my favorite part is how amazing every voice line is. Every line is so fun and delivered so well that for me, no other game has compared to the passion and emotion you hear in Star Fox 64

[@KARLOSPCgame]

13:23 "The pokemon snap game(S)" Feels good to be in this timeline

[@ebasongaming]

I'd say Kid Icarus Uprising does a phenomenal job at creating spectacle and challenge like Sin and Punishment. Not only is it epic in scale, but the music is perfectly timed to fit what's on-screen and the character's conversations. It's almost like a feature film at times.

[@bira_85]

Honestly to this day the game that I still remember for it spectacle was Child of Eden. The fact that you could shoot by moving your arms around was mind blowing.

[@otakubullfrog1665]

I would think the hardest genres to revive for a modern audience would be those that basically only existed due to technical limitations (think text adventures or purely quick-time event games like Dragon's Lair).

[@SlamBolts]

I appreciate the Ring Fit love🧡🔥

[@GiantButterKnife]

I often feel like Muso (Warriors) games have a breadth of complexity and nuance that is frequently overlooked due to the games looking very simple and similar on their surface.

[@AnotherDuck]

I think they're generally being considered simple army-bashing versions of more "refined" games like DMC and Bayonetta.

[@ethanhayes]

Hyper-specific genre, you ask? What Makes A Good Second-Person Shooter? (Or just Second-Person games if that's TOO too specific.)

[@rakaydosdraj8405]

Second person shooter? So games where you get shot at?

[@ethanhayes]

@@rakaydosdraj8405 Not just that. A game where the camera takes the perspective of the person shooting you.

[@GameGod77]

It's a rare day when I happen to have played every game mentioned in a video! On-rail shooters are one of my favourite genres. Like you mentioned, the spectacle is a big part of what makes them enjoyable, hell even the cheesy voice acting adds charm to a lot of the older games. But I think what I enjoy most about these games is that they test skill, not luck. In a way I think they're almost the opposite of RPGs. Where RPGs are slow, tactical, have luck based elements in their combat system, and can last dozens if not hundreds of hours, on-rail shooters are fast, instinctual, entirely skill based, and only last 1 to 3 hours. I feel like the design differences between genres like the 2 I've just mentioned could be a video unto itself.

[@antiskill2012]

Love the video concept. I'd be interested in one about platform fighters in the vein of Super Smash Bros. There have been many attempts with varying degrees of success, both indie and big-budget, but I'm curious as to what special sauce made Smash the most beloved.

[@sacta]

I recently watched GmanLives' Time Crisis retrospective video, and although I only played Time Crisis 2 as a teen, it made me appreciate a lot of what the series had, and had me wishing I could go back to play the full thing at some point

[@frogfox4287]

3D platformers seem so SIMPLE in theory. Why do you rarely see any good 3D platformers outside of mario and nintendo in general?

[@BonaparteBardithion]

@@gregoryford2532 Half of the PS1 line-up too.

[@frogfox4287]

@@gregoryford2532 You can't tell me A Hat in Time wasn't a success. People have repeatedly bought games that claim to take inspiration from the old 3D platformers. People WANT good 3D platformers but time and time again, there has been disappointment after disappointment. It's not easy to make a good one. They don't make money because they don't end up being good. Look at how bad Balan Wonderworld was. Very few recent attempts have succeeded. That's a mighty shame because it's one of my favorite play styles.

[@frogfox4287]

@@Oreboat EXACTLY!

[@FernandaHaiabe]

Ahhh Starfox 64.. My heart skips a beat every time someone remembers how brilliant this game was... It will always be one of my favorites!!!

[@TamsmitSam]

I'd love a look into 1st person dungeon crawlers like etrian odyssey and the original shin megami tensei. Super underrated genre that I have a weird fondness for

[@jeffcourty6321]

Me too! There is so few out there... I played them on almost every system

[@joshmay2944]

How about Kings Field? Especially if you’re a fan of Dark Souls, it’s really cool seeing the roots of From Soft’s design inspirations.

[@GeonamicWarrior]

I'd like to see a video covering what makes a good point-and-click style game. A lot of them seem to be plagued with trial and error of clicking everywhere without some clear sense of direction, some of which may lead to game overs you wouldn't expect.

[@lnsflare1]

I think that Game Maker's Toolkit did that, and Design Doc did two videos on Classic and Modem Adventure Games.

[@jakescartoons6045]

"The original Panzer Dragoon hasn't aged that well." Me, a diehard Sega fanboy: Are you sure about that?

[@kubev]

I love Sega, but I revisited the original Panzer Dragoon recently, and it definitely hasn't aged well. Orta is still AMAZING, though.

[@jakescartoons6045]

@@kubev Personally, I still enjoy playing the original every time I boot it up. Obviously, the sequels are better, but I would still recommend it to anyone who has a Sega Saturn or an Xbox (I say "Xbox" because you can unlock the original game within "Panzer Dragoon: Orta").

[@paul.9828]

@@kubev Panzer Dragoon Orta remains gorgeous on the Xbox One. And the art design is very distinctive.

[@Elfos64]

Bit Trip Fate was a 2D rail shooter. You had temporary power-ups and the levels were somewhat rhythm-based. The track was all curvy and you had to move back and forth on it to collect the item drops by defeated enemies and destroyed obstacles and avoid enemy fire.

[@crabstronaut9395]

have there been any videos on visual novels or farming sims? or even, dare i say it, gacha games? i feel like those might be fun

[@ArcCaravan]

I think visual novels got a mention during modern adventure games.

[@crabstronaut9395]

@@ArcCaravan oh right, i remember that

[@botaku12721]

Exploring visual novels from a design perspective could definitely be interesting. With how limited in gameplay they are, it's easy to posit that the main factor which decides how compelling a visual novel is is the story. But I wouldn't be at all surprised if there was some design insight to be had as well, even beyond avoiding basic mistakes. For example, I'm pretty sure that the reason why choices feel so awesome and impactful in Zero Time Dilemma (though I suppose whether ZTD is a visual novel is a tad questionable but let's leave that aside for now) is not just due to the story implications, but also for how they are implemented audiovisually :)

[@Starfloofle]

@@botaku12721 Most of the design wisdom to be gleamed from analyzing VNs likely has less to do with VNs themselves and more presentation to analyze. After all, unless you start to hybridize, most VNs are simply accompaniments to a story that takes a loose "choose your own adventure" path. (and even then it's not always that free and you frequently end up with a lot of illusion of choice going on.)

[@crabstronaut9395]

@@frankgrimes7388 i agree but i’m a sick person

[@NattyWheat]

I don't really know how to describe their genre, but I have always been absolutely hooked on the Custom Robo games and sadly, I have never found anything quite like them.

[@DriscollDigital]

Just for the Kingdom Hearts bit. While that's true that the rails shooter is gross. It's the fact that a mini-game breaks up the constant RPG action. Kinda like A Way Out.

[@XenithflareGaming]

One of my favorite railshooter is Omega Boost. I've STILL never beaten the final boss, but I can get to him no problem. I can't even begin to count the hours I've put into it...

[@2leftthumbs]

No mention of Rambo The Video Game? What was even the point!!? Great work as always ;) Seriously, this video kinda makes me feel that games on rails should be a more common trend

[@maxiwarhammer]

Star Wars the Old Republic, or SWTOR has a on rail shooter section in the spaceship missions, and I actually loved it, it's kind a minigame, but is super enjoyable

[@puckchang8691]

Do one on creature creator games. It doesn’t get more niche than that!

[@Roxor128]

Only game of that genre I can think of is Spore. I recall reading a paper about its animation system some time ago.

[@BoardToBitsGames]

Infinite runners (Temple Run, Sonic Dash) feel tangential to this, like a mobile little brother of on-rails shooters, trading shooting agency for discrete movement options.

[@Camkitsune]

5:12 I feel like this isn't being fair to _Kingdom Hearts._ The gummy ship segments are essentially a minigame designed to offer a break from the core loops of exploration and reactive melee combat. Because of this, it makes sense that it wouldn't be as robust or intense. This is why the emphasis is on the customization, collecting blueprints and new parts, and improving your ship design - these elements both link the minigame to the core loop and also provide an additional incentives to engage with them. The sections aren't particularly difficult because they're being treated as an interlude. Having said all of that, the sequel definitely did a lot to improve on them (Just like it did for everything not involving Atlantis).

[@sommeone]

My current favourite on-rails game is probably Pistolwhip... It's mechanically extremely simple, but it executes it's marriage of on-rails shooter and VR music game incredibly well!! VR on-rails shooters like this one really feel like the successor to light gun games in how fun they are to play even with the simplest of premises

[@nirast2561]

You know where this genre would work really well? In VR!

[@SoluKissin]

That would probably lead to motion sickness. However, it _could_ work if it was like, a reverse on-rails. As in, the objects come to you while the background is unmoving. Though that would probably not count as an on-rails game anymore

[@jasonblalock4429]

The Rez rerelease has VR support on applicable platforms. I know the PC version has VR, and I think (iirc) the PS4 version does too.

[@Starfloofle]

No, no no no no, the first and most important thing you do with a player in VR is never move them without their consent @_@ Now, you can *frame* it differently and make it work, for sure, but keep in mind that this genre does actually exist on VR and has for a long time (I believe OG VR before it came to the public had some attractions that were on-rails) in those cases you had to literally be strapped down because of how much it fucks with you to be constrained but not literally constrained LOL

[@gabrielboyd1286]

Wow I didn't know how much kid Icarus uprising pulled from sin and punishment

[@claudiomonteverdi847]

dude, i love your vids and I'm 7 minutes in so it might be premature BUT How can you have a conversation on on rail games and not cite shoot em ups in the first 3 minuted they are the most important and most influential genre on that regard

[@claudiomonteverdi847]

@@gregoryford2532 Arent Stgs videogames that happen on a rail too? it's just odd that they werent included nor mentioned considering how one is the direct byproduct of the other way way more than Super Mario bros. is to Super Mario 64. Also i feel the video results a bit shallower imo than literally any other of his i've seen. I felt there wasn't much to say that couldn't have worked as a footnote for a Galaxian video. Especially because stgs are closer to star fox/sin and punishment/panzer dragoon than to light gun games. Honestly that might be me, tho. I just don't see any difference between a game being on rail and one be autoscrolling

[@LegendOfGamerBoy]

I'm so glad you included Sayonara Wild Hearts!! I feel like that game is way too underrated!

[@DesignDoc]

Not the first time we've talked about it. The game is an overlooked gem.

[@Mathtron5000]

You really gonna not talk about my favorite on-rails game Typing of the Dead?

[@ninjawxyz1260]

Kid Icarus Uprising is one of my favorites because the rails segments also provide a lot of story elements and interactions between the characters. The fact that the on the rails segments are half of a level solves the destination problem. Each stage has you using the rails to get to where the land battle phase occurs, The big issue kid icarus uprisng had was controls. I never noticed how bad the controls were as a kid (heck I didn't even know you could aim the reticle separately for a long time) but returning to it recently shows the issues of the control system

[@FalseRed7]

(Reads Description) How did you not talk about Kid Icarus Uprising?

[@ArcCaravan]

Probably covered what it did with the genre in other examples.

[@jedstanaland2897]

I was working on a mmo with my friends years ago and we had two primary ideas. first we wanted to have the player's skills in the real world be the deciding factor of combat not a simple numbers game. the next part was incredibly customized characters that weren't locked into a single type of armor or equipment because of their class or something like that. the next part of the game was that you weren't going to be limited to humanoid characters. so if you were to want a centaur mage that wears heavy armor that would be viable potentially. you could also be something like a whisp that feeds on and uses magical energy as life so you would be a kind of magical energy being that has all these tentacles and you would convert your weapons into your own tentacles and you could dump your own life into spells to make them more powerful. the whole project fell apart because we were very in over our heads but we loved what we tried to get done.

[@Tenchinu]

DesignDoc: So head down to the comments, where we got two topics to discuss: your favorite on-rails games, (and why you love them) and any other GENRES that are also tricky to make. Me *watching Sonic footage, while the editor is winking so hard his eyelid is about to shut completely*: I see what you did there

[@deschamos7599]

I've added Sayonara Wild Hearts to my wishlist after watching this video as it reminds me a bit of Thumper, which was a blast to play. It's a bit of an odd pull, but some of my favorite on rails bits were the motorcycle levels from the first Bayonetta. Your comment about set pieces was on point to be sure, those were full of them!