Designing a 4D World: The Technology behind Miegakure [Hide&Reveal]

[@KarachoBolzen]

A little talk between dev and PC: Dev: "Can you render 2D?" PC: "Sure" Dev: "Can you render 3D?" PC: "Sure" Dev: "Can you render 4D?" PC: "Sure" Dev: "But our universe is just in 3D" PC: "What the hell is a "universe"?"

[@secretcache2453]

clonetrp Official, nah. It doesn't have to mean that it is 3D just because we can't see 4D.

[@kekland]

clonetrp Official Our universe can go up to 11D

[@khanisrok6363]

I guess he's talking about String Theory

[@KarachoBolzen]

Khanis Rok jep, he is, and I actually knew about the whole 11D thing but thought that wouldn't work with the point I was trying to make

[@khanisrok6363]

I think that even in String theory there's only 3 dimensions of space, the others fall into different categories. Not sure though. If true, your comment is still correct in this context.

[@Herocleo]

A 2D projection of a 3D slice of a 4D object. Simple.

[@yanzenith612]

Visualised in your 1D brain...

[@Mannjager]

Yan Zenith Sciencephile?

[@Anandgovender1]

Yan Zenith OOOOOOOHHHHH! Epic burn! Your almost as good as Mr. H (He is a teacher in my school who punishes his students by roasting them)

[@jv103bits]

JZ AK, I don't think it's very useful, the students probably like the teacher

[@linebernard7479]

Watched by our 1D brains

[@PauLtus_B]

I wonder if having been working on this game for a long time has given you a good sense of what 4 dimensional spaces actually are like.

[@ibutton77]

+PauLtus B On the one hand, I would wager it must have taught him a number of things he had not already intuited, on the other he must have already known quite a lot more than average about 4d just to begin designing this game. One example I can safely extrapolate on his behalf is that the first demo versions of this game (back when XKCD commented on it, which is how I found out) were voxel based (so everything in the landscape was built from tesseract / 8-cell building blocks similar to Minecraft's 1m^3 voxels) but then suddenly after a year or two hiatus the video illustrations upgraded to the kinds of objects he describes here, using tetrahedral faces.. So I'm going to speculate that he came to the realization of how to do that smoothly *after* already working on the game, and likely from working with displaying graphical 4-rotations of his 4d voxels.. ;3

[@mtbdesignworks]

+Jesse Thompson Pretty Much! ahah

[@PauLtus_B]

I can see how a game like this could "teach" you a sense of 4 spacial dimensions, and that really attracts me.

[@lare290]

+PauLtus B This can't visualize fourth dimension. It just flattens it into three dimensions.

[@PauLtus_B]

PerunaVallankumous Well of course it can't visualize fourth dimensions. I don't think humans can see four dimensions in any way. But we might be able to develop a feeling for it.

[@alanp741]

"But the computer doesn't care. It's just working with numbers" Computers are complete savages :D

[@coopergates9680]

That's why we have to code 4D to have any chance at seeing what the hell is going on... our minds' eyes can't do it.

[@alanp741]

Yep

[@coopergates9680]

Time to see if I can upgrade my shader a little

[@alanp741]

OuO I'm excited to see

[@coopergates9680]

Early stages in a JVM... I need to convert from triangles having vector corners to storing meshes as vertices and indices.

[@sourcedrop7624]

This is why the blocks in super Mario bros float. They're slices of 4d structures.

[@ipablol]

that should apply to minecraft too

[@igorthelight]

@@ipablol Minecraft Nether is a part of 4D space with Overworld :-)

[@igorthelight]

@Michael Darrow No. Nether is not down. Press F3 in Nether and see for yourself. Also, here whar Minecraft Wiki says: minecraft.gamepedia.com/The_Nether Not a single word that it's down or up.

[@germaincasse]

@@igorthelight huge wooosh

[@luiswi]

@@igorthelight Maybe the Nether is down in the 4th dimension...

[@ElwoodPlays]

4D is so intruguing! I can't imagine somebody playing your game and not being fascinated by this.

[@andrewbrown8956]

Some people don't like brain-hurty things. I don't know why, either.

[@metalim]

It's the contrary: only some people like brain-hurty things. Most people don't like brainies, because it breaks their self-confidence and authority, and they get no reward in the end. Few other people don't do puzzles, because they know they can do it, but their time can be spent much more efficiently doing other things.

[@shadowfire04]

my brain does hurt a little bit, but in a good way. like there's a headache when you completely don't understand something but are still trying to follow, and a headache when your brain is doing some work to try and comprehend it. also a supreme feeling of excitement because THIS IS SO COOL

[@zacvee7255]

I just can't understand what is going on in the domputer simulation. All I got out of it was objects being deformed.

[@Cj-ev2si]

Im not fascinated by this.

[@complexobjects]

I study applied mathematics and I've worked a lot with analysing high dimensional data. This game is so fascinating! It's one of the most truly innovative things happening in games imo. And I'm sure it will give people a better awareness/understanding of high dimensional spaces.

[@espadrine]

+Simulation and Math Visualization I agree, it is fascinating! It makes me wonder how it would play if it was a projection of the 4th dimension instead of a slice.

[@Yanai_H]

I think this might be the smartest game ever. I wonder if you play it for long enough you actually start thinking in four dimensions

[@ANunes06]

Dwarf Fortress will always be the smartest game ever. This does appear to be pretty damned smart though. 10/10, would try to imagine the 4-d shape that would project to the shape of trees again.

[@Yanai_H]

LordBowler never heard of dwarf fortress, ill look it up tho

[@ANunes06]

Yanay H Developed by one guy, it has been in progress for a decade. It cannot be summarized. Start by reading the saga of Boatmurdered, an early build DF community let's play. Happy hunting.

[@DerangedMallard]

Honestly this stuff has so much potential for horror. Can you imagine a freaking monster that stalks you and moves in and out of the 4th dimension as it does while you can't? Like it could stand right in front of you but you can't see it because it's in the 4th dimension, and you see it briefly pop in and out of existence as it attacks you and there's tons of scares building on the same mechanic etc etc... Gosh I would love to see that

[@arvinroidoatienza7082]

SCP-3966 a 4d Spider that eats people's brains when they sleep and are the primary reason for sleep paralysis

[@outofthebox9699]

Ghosts?

[@Titanic-wo6bq]

@@arvinroidoatienza7082 Of course there is an SCP like this.

[@wingedfeline5379]

Lovecraft

[@ryPish]

My body is ready. Now let me collect the pieces of my mind and put them back together...

[@llauoylliklliwi970]

Ry P no i destroyed the 69 likes :. (

[@crazymarkmc]

still 96

[@binarypench]

Blackofnight 98

[@UltraLuigi2401]

323

[@ThePaulohubert]

Ry P they are lost in the 4-D :p

[@ethanwagner6418]

Movie Makers: Nah bro, the fourth dimension is smell.

[@RoryRose_]

Those movie makers have one-dimensional brains.

[@Kommaardoor64]

Which isn't wrong.

[@EchoHeo]

Geert van 't Zand Which is wrong

[@ieaturanium574]

bullshit. the fourth dimension is love!

[@EchoHeo]

Dildi Pinkoos Plz stop my mathematical brain cannot take it anymore

[@soylentgreen6082]

How can I be speechless and simultaneously have so many questions? Count my mind to be officially blown. Favourited and shared! This is officially what computer games were always supposed to do. It is educational at beyond tertiary level and can actually potentially teach us about the universe we inhabit in an enjoyable way that allows us to come to terms with the phenomenon through play (which is the best way to learn according to pedagogical theory). I will certainly buy this game the moment it comes out. If there is a kickstarter I will chuck money at it.

[@coopergates9680]

Teach us about abstract mathematical universes, yes. We can only program 4D to represent it well. Props to him for doing so much work for years, but I am not using 3D slices for my world, especially since I only put a few objects in it initially for testing and they would be invisible most of the time if they had to intersect a certain 3D space to be seen.

[@eceetv4280]

It would be fun to imagine if someone made a first-person shooter game where you have to use the 4th dimension to your advantage.

[@somerandomdragon558]

It would make aiming extremely difficult.

[@pivotguydc1149]

@@somerandomdragon558 until players get good at it and the competitive scene develops. I'm being serious, anyone who develops skill in a game like that would get comfortable thinking in 4 dimensions.

[@pivotguydc1149]

As far as aiming goes, unless you want it to play like Goldeneye, you would either need a third stick for consoles or a 3D mouse for PC. Get on it, Logitech!

[@somerandomdragon558]

@@pivotguydc1149 It would not only be difficult because of the 4th dimension itself, but because of the control. The mouse can be used to control 2 rotation planes. In 4 dimensions you would need at least 3 rotation planes (preferably 4) to move around properly. Also you would not only have wasd to move around, but also 2 more (q and e make sense here) to walk ana and kata. So in order to aim at someone moving in 4 dimensions, you would have to follow his movements with possibly more keys than you can actually press at the same time. Using the mousewheel to rotate on one 4D rotation plane would be possible too, but very jumpy.

[@somerandomdragon558]

Oops i kinda forgot the conclusion of all that here. So basically it is not easy to make proper controls for 4D games. Its not a big deal for something like 4D Minecraft which is more relaxed. But while one does not stand a chance with trying to dodge the bullets of a good gamer in 3 dimensions, its definitely different in 4. So both the game designer and the players would have to be creative when it comes to figuring out how to make it properly playable.

[@HerocowTheRusher]

First I've heard of this game I thought it was merely two or more copies of the same terrain built to looks different and uses the player's position to either teleport or generate the map. But looking at it visually, this seems pretty amazing.

[@Lambda_Ovine]

Put the game on my Wish List on Steam. I've waited for YEARS waiting for somebody to do something like this. 4D has so much potential for exploration games, platformers, puzzles and even boss fights where you have to fight different 3D cross sections of a 4D beast! I've been waiting for years for somebody with the correct set of skills to think outside the box in the most radical and extreme way possible.

[@zhanwu3837]

My intel hd graphic is crying on 3d games and now what ,4d?

[@alanp741]

Especially those 3D games with shaders and lighting effects.

[@predatortheme]

Funny part is, shaders use vector4 datastructures as color format everytime,.

[@alanp741]

+Conex Xenon Huh...Interesting

[@MinopolisMc]

Conex Xenon but that's like a completely different thing :p

[@Oresmond]

same tbh

[@christopherklix1113]

The concept behind this is actually very simple. But as soon as you are trying to visualize the 4d movement in your mind, it kinda drives you into an obsession to figure it out and really understand it. Imagining the 4th dimension as a spatial dimension is very interesting. Great work!

[@l3reak]

I thought this game was pretty far out, and now that I understand more of what's actually happening, I think it's /totally flipping crazy/. Hats off to you.

[@keving6616]

This is the best visualization of the 4th dimension I've ever seen and I've been looking for a long time. I applaud your work and ask that you continue.

[@Mark73]

This is awesome and interesting. I've been following Miegakure for years and I'm eagerly anticipating it. It's cool to see under the hood like this. WHEN IS IT COMING OUT?! GOD DAMN IT! WE WANT THIS GAME!

[@sebastianbottger1044]

+Mark P. I also have the shortcut to Miegakure in my bookmarks for what now - four years? Five, maybe? About as long as Star Citizen, I guess.

[@Mark73]

Sebastian Böttger The XKCD comic was in 2010.

[@AN-717]

I thought it was dropped. There isn't any game here anyway. It's more of a proof.

[@Predated2]

Forrest Abbiott Do you really think, that a man that works 15 years on a 4 dimensional game and game engine to suddenly drop it? Rendering the game takes a long time, altering the game engine due to bugs takes a long time, imagining and creating new levels to tell the story takes a long time.

[@AN-717]

To answer your question, yes.

[@lorenfulghum2393]

game dev here... it seems like you would be able to author 4d objects in great detail just by using an animation timeline of the object in question , changing over time (as in the instance of the wall breaking down). Then you just treat the position in the animation sequence as a spatial dimension. Or with the crystals, you could keyframe all kinds of complex boolean operations happening across your "W plane".

[@WeeWeeJumbo]

Much more interesting stuff here than in the typical 'trailer'

[@Patchlamb]

all the pure science videos i've seen describe how a 4D object looks passing through 3D only explained it so simply, with basic shapes, and didn't quite go into full detail. but this... making the concept practical so it becomes a game... it explains it WAY better and WAY cooler :O

[@FadedInsight]

This project is so interesting. I am so looking forward to actually play it but seeing how it grows is also just very nice.

[@willem1703]

How insane would a 4D boss be in an otherwise 3D game? Nearly every player'd be like, wtf is he doing? Teleporting? Shapechanging? Or, holy cow! An entire 4D dungeon! There's some neat 4D clockwork machinery in the center to indicate translation through the 4th dimension. It would probably need to be a bonus level, on the account of being so mind-bendingly bizarre. I only recently discovered this. So looking forward to it! Cheers, man. Brilliant!

[@GRasputin91]

Well now. I see a plausible method for accurately depicting the extradimensional city of Ry'leh, just how Lovecraft described it.

[@JDKDKDLDKDKDKDKKKDERYY]

YES

[@westonmansfield5547]

out of all videos ive watched of 4d, this is the only one that actually helped me understand the concept. its like space within/ on top of space

[@RobertZabulonian]

Every new video leaves me more and more awestruck.

[@checkpoint3260]

Amazing... and most people have a hard time conceiving the 4D world from the Flatland analogy... you went the extra mile and made a model. Very impressive

[@SergeyRAD]

Great concept! Is it possible to trapped inside the object during the movement?

[@mtbdesignworks]

No because when the world appears to change, you are not moving, just changing which way you are facing.

[@alanp741]

Oh...so that's what basicaly is happening

[@coopergates9680]

The ending gates resemble the logo for Coding Dojo. Who created it first?

[@JoelHoward011]

@Cooper Gates : The Japanese did: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Torii

[@inkanus5jg]

What changes is the perspective according to you.

[@BennyDYT1]

I think it is more fitting for " presentation " rather than a game, but it is quite amazing indeed!

[@smoldio8744]

ive been waiting for this game for six years

[@azazeltheslave790]

I love things like this because it gets people out of their normal reality of thinking. If there is a fourth dimension and we dont see it but we are in it that means that there are dimensions beyond the fourth, and the fifth, and the sixth and so on, there is so much in this world that is physically beyond comprehension and can only be understood by abandoning all reliance on our own comprehension and rely on what is understandable through mathematics and deductive logic. This is exactly why no matter how logically I think, I never throw out the possibilities of extra terrestrials or gods and demons because I know that what I know is literally a fraction of a fraction of a fractal reality.

[@AAhmou]

Nice to see the expression of 4D on a folding 3D world.

[@PZCherokee]

We dream in 4D. This is why we see things the same way as this simulation. Where everything is changing in a nonsensical yet understandable way at the same time, and time doesn’t seem to matter at all. Like the character in this game is probably seeing all of the stuff happening around him like a dream. Even the way the other characters appear disappear and reappear depending on the atmosphere.

[@AgentMidnight]

This is incredibly fascinating. I've been dying to play it since XKCD mentioned it!

[@Mark73]

+Cubik Back in friggin' 2010!

[@VolumetricTerrain-hz7ci]

Thanks for the description of the game. Cool code technology! Keep doing what you're doing, you're doing great!

[@CubeMath]

Will the 2d slice example be part of the game when its relased to show how the game works?

[@mtbdesignworks]

Yes!

[@BobMarleythefirst]

This is the most informative video I've seen on 4d. I feel I have a firm grasp on the subject, now.

[@ZachHixsonTutorials]

The game doesn't look all that fun (although I'll admit, I have only watched a few videos on it), but I would probably buy it just for the programming and concepts that went into this!

[@Ownage4lif31]

+Zach Hixson That's why he's taking his time and trying to create something people would enjoy. Sure, I said that with most games. When I actually played it, I ended up enjoying it. Give this one a chance. This must be a very complex game and I don't think many will enjoy due to the reason of it being 4D in a way nobody has done.

[@foreignwarren7361]

your absolutely right...good graphics / look doesnt make a good game...

[@mustafaozturk3343]

foreign warren And bad graphics / bad looks also does not make a good game...

[@foreignwarren7361]

Mustafa Öztürk that would depend on other factors

[@mustafaozturk3343]

foreign warren Yeah, that is exactly what I am trying to tell you. There are some factors which makes a game a good game and graphics one of them. But this does not mean bad graphics = bad game. However, stop talking like graphics is not important for a game.

[@NattyGameDev]

Absolutely Genius ! Can't wait to see it ! Best of luck for launch !

[@CelloSeanMuller]

How is the development of this game coming along?

[@bearknucklesketching9317]

No way!! I've been playing with the idea of 4D for a couple years! Thinking how it would look when you traveled and such. I even thought about making an adventure game with it! (Kind of like A Link to the Past) I can't believe someone else thought of exactly the same thing. It's really satisfying to see the movement. Exactly like I'd imagined! Great work!

[@melemmie19]

Ah, the fallacy of originality. Yep, if you've thought of it, so have others. And as the population grows and the internet homogenizes the information available to us, this will only increase more.

[@gamefoun]

For the ring video in the and card. Since it's not released I can try to guess the solution. You move one ring up into another plane, move it to the position of the first ring and then move it back into the original plane. Now they are bound together and you can't break them apart without destroying one or using the 4th dimension.

[@gamefoun]

I hope I got that right :)

[@meditativemind9219]

Having seen MANY explanations and examples of 4D, you've explained it very simply. Thank you for your contribution, I am looking forward to your creation!

[@GeoffreyHale]

2:38 "What you see is a 2D projection of a 3D slice of a 4D object."

[@merseyless]

Oh my god. When this is released, I'll need a 3 hour long accompanying video of you walking through all the cool stuff you've done to make it work.

[@Sniffelur]

So you can travel to alternate 3d universes, by combining them in a 3d slice of a 4d universe? (how it looks to me...)

[@Szobiz]

yes precisely they did the same thing as everyone else but tied everything together in a complicated way. "impressive"

[@ianr8060]

The idea of 4D is pretty interesting. You helped me wrap my head around what it may be space wise.

[@un852]

It sounds like what your saying is that everything in your 4d engine is built solid (made out of tetrahedron's rather than triangles). Your work looks great, but is their a practical application to this? Are these tetrahedrons easy to manipulate? For example would it be realistic to use them to create realistic materials, to cause dirt to actually behave like dirt, water like water etc...? Is this better than voxel technology?

[@donovanmahan2901]

Because there are three lateral axes perpendicular to any normal axis (facing outward/inward) in 4D space, you need tetrahedra to model even the surface mesh of the world.

[@-na-nomad6247]

When you realize, 20 years ago, the average people couldn't grasp simple things like projecting a 3D scene into a 2D scene and now we have games(1 game) that play with the 4th dimension is by itself fascinating.

[@dexis9412]

Now, please make a 26 dimensional game using every letter of the alphabet

[@jeongheonlee4556]

perfect idea for a XKCD episode

[@dwouu]

Dexis It only goes to 10th or 11th dimension.

[@wuketuke6601]

No, use the Chinese alphabet (for a bit more dimensions)

[@somerandomdragon558]

Since the complexity of worlds growls exponentially with the amount of dimensions, 26D would fuck the computer. xD

[@neoselket562]

nO

[@wade-potato6200]

This is the first video on the subject that I have understood, thank you.

[@user-og6hl6lv7p]

So where's the game? Near 15 years development and not even a demo?

[@deathwolf1767]

I like innovative inventions because once you get an idea and you share it,other people see it differently and create something new with it,an amazing discovery,maybe some future game or program will use your these ideas......gotta love technological evolution

[@anders_x3]

can you not render a bigger slice of the world at once? why has it to be such a small piece? would be much more immersive imo if the whole screen was terrain

[@mtbdesignworks]

+Trax2oooK1ng That's more gameplay related. If the levels are small there is less stuff to keep track of. The amount of tiles grows with N to the 4th power, so it gets overwhelming very quickly.

[@CaesarsSalad]

+Trax2oooK1ng I think it would look even more confusing when you rotate the slice of a bigger level. Stuff more distant to you would change even faster, it would be just a blur. I guess it could look okay if you limit "draw distance" during rotation or something like that. Just a thought.

[@Mark73]

+Miegakure Wouldn't it be the 3rd power, since you're only getting more floor tiles, and not more tiles vertically?

[@mtbdesignworks]

+Mark P. To be precise, the level design often involves height, so levels are small because they grow with the 4th power, but yes the ground does "only" grow to the 3rd power.

[@WhatsOnMyShelf]

+Miegakure Is it a processor issue (ex. the frame rate crumbles with more tiles) or is it the size of the data generated?

[@rickandelon9374]

I don't know if the dev will see this comment but i just want to say that this is the best game that i have ever played. When I watched these videos back then i had very high expectations for this game and now after actually playing this game i think that the devs have accomplished something truly amazing here.This game right here is genre defining and it can literally redefine what it means to have a gaming experience on a pc. This will open up a completely new kind of 4d->3d parallel gaming realm that will intrigue and challenge all of us.I really hope this game continues to grow and inspire other devs into turning it into a real virtual camera space game. Cheers!

[@VoxelMusic]

That would be pretty cool if the game had actually released yet.

[@agent000000008]

I thought he was saying “Me and Gakure” referring to his Japanese friend who helped him to make this game...

[@logitech4873]

I think a lot of people would be very interested in seeing a video that goes into greater depth about the technology and development process of this game. If you ever find the time, it would be lovely.

[@fedor3000]

why not simply use ... Cinema4D!? Badum tss

[@habadapf]

i think this is the first Cinema 4D p̶u̶n̶ joke I have ever seen.

[@robwarrior2120]

The V8 dude what did he say?! can't you understand the words you're reading?

[@habadapf]

The V8 Ah thanks. non native english speaker here.

[@habadapf]

+ just learned something from a youtube comment.. this thread is getting more and more rare^^

[@BO-pf9wi]

fedor3000 Because were talking about 4D *objects* not 4D *space* , but going to the cinema and watching a 4D movie isn't actuall 4D it's 2D becuase you can't turn the movie around and see it from another angle, it's just multiple 2D frames (photos) played in a certain order that makes it seem to move. 4D movies aren't even 3D, the movie is still 2D they simply have real life effects (e.g splashes of water) and movment included to the seating area to simulate the enviroment of the movie. ( *EDIT* please if a got anything wrong correct me, I'm 12)

[@AndrewBrownK]

In my opinion games, tools, and experiences like this will be ESSENTIAL to giving us the depth of higher dimensional intuitions needed to further Einstein’s work.

[@GuillermoValleCosmos]

Actually thinking about it, to be really mindboggling the game character itself should be 4D too

[@Szobiz]

i wish, but he couldn't because he would need to move through parts we are not seeing and so we could get stuck without knowing

[@StephenWilson112]

I had a similar idea to this, but touché man, you beat me to the punch, and nailed it! Clever idea to procedurally generate 4D objects the way you do. This is awesome!

[@BannedIP]

Can I use the forth dimension to get inside banks vaults?

[@mtbdesignworks]

+BannedIP Yes

[@googelplussucksys5889]

+Miegakure Will we be able to strafe along the 4th dimension or only Resident Evil-style?

[@mtbdesignworks]

+Googelplus Sucksys Who knows

[@googelplussucksys5889]

Miegakure:0

[@somerandomdragon558]

Depends on how the bank vault is constructed. A 4D vault should have walls on the 4D sides aswell of course. So, probably no. Unless the builder of the vault was a little retarded and forgot about adding some walls. :p

[@GaetanAlmela]

This is the first time I've heard of this game and it's already easily one of the coolest things I've ever seen

[@KitKatHexe]

Video: "As far as we know our universe only has three spatial dimensions" Me: laughs in the 11 dimensions of string theory

[@ChertovBaobab]

Wow. Just. Wow. I already love this! It looks so intriging!

[@nobueno2551]

Could you show us what happens to the character from the perspective of the NPCs? I gather he might just deform and disappear but it would be interesting to see it happen.

[@justinjensen1009]

If the character is purely 3D, he would simply vanish instantly. However, if he was given a bit of 4D thickness, he would probably be sliced away so you could temporarily see his insides, then he would vanish.

[@tiagotiagot]

Not his insides, the borders of his 4d body. If the motion along the 4th dimension was gradual enough, he would appear to shrink and float and look a little deformed; turning into a floating lump before shrinking completely into nothingness.

[@17MrLeon]

That would happen if he would be 4d person and you would be watching 3d intersection (shadow) of his 4d body. But if he was really only 3d charactr he would vanish instantly. Just like if you have 2d character and move him on 3d dimention you dont see him schrink since he is only 2d in disapears imdiatly when you interest plane where he is not present. So If he is 3d not 4d than he would just instantly vanish. Remember the world is 4d the characters are 3d.

[@anselmschueler]

It would look just like the npcs look to the character.

[@sgbench]

Mark Neu gets it

[@AbandonedVoid]

I love how it all distorts and tears, I'd love to see this used as an effect in a dimension-shifting game like Soul Reaver with a more fantastical setting

[@DanZaidan]

Hi Marc! Is the 2d slice example shown @1:35 just an animation or is that an actual tool running in real time?

[@mtbdesignworks]

It's a tool running in real time :)

[@Lugmillord]

I always wanted to see a game like this. Really fascinating! But gameplay-wise it will probably be hard to wrap your around it. Still, it's a pleasure to look at!

[@BD12]

Aaaaaaargh when I can I PLAY this, I want to get my Carl Sagan experience going already

[@NeoDragonEWW]

I've a virus, and not on my computer. I should be resting, but instead I decided to check this video out. The concept in this game is so complex to me that you are actually making my symptoms (including headache) WORSE.... So thanks. (half joking/half serious). You guys are seriously smart. Well done.

[@xanthirudha]

COOL STORY BRO. I TOLD ONE PHD MATH DUDE WHO THOUGHT I WAS KIDDING. STILL NOT TAKING ME SERIOULY

[@Szobiz]

and u were

[@warmCabin]

So those 3D plant models...are they like billboarded sprites in 4D development land?

[@Webcomentarista_Aditivo]

If choosing between 2D and 3D girls wasn't already hard enough

[@Azihayya]

Finnallly, and video that does a really good job and showing how 4 dimension objects are constructed rationally. I've been sitting here wondering if you just draw 3D objects and then place them on a fourth dimension to create a 4th dimension object. Nahhhh, this visualization helped me understand what people are doing--to some extent. I'm still trying to understand exactly what people mean when they talk about what simple 3D shapes would look like in 4 dimensions.

[@Linkinpurk]

what happens if you stand on a place where on a other koordinate of the 4th dimension is a stone ?

[@spalshie7662]

Telecom Service The same thing as when you try to walk into a rock, I suppose; you can't

[@jucipher1]

Pff.. you get stoned.

[@SamTanXYZ]

When it does that weird morphy thingy the character isn't moving at all, only rotating. Notice how none of the numbers at 1:18 are changing?

[@HaileISela]

Hey! I wanted to congratulate you on this very interesting and inspiring project. And I wanted to let you know that the inventor of geodesic spheres, Richard Buckminster Fuller, created an incredible understanding of Universe by realizing that the tetrahedron is in fact the basic building block of Universe and it's four sides, all related by 60°, are in fact the four dimensions of space. Time is just another aspect of all the other spacial dimension since nothing is instantaneous. Fuller's experimental mathematics is called Synergetics and not only beautifully accounts for all kinds of real world phenomena but also proves that the common 3D description of Universe is based on an ancient misunderstanding by the Greeks who thought of Earth as a disc, thus erroneously coming up with a purely axiomatic 90° coordinate system which to us seems easy and simple, but actually works on a much higher order of complexity than natures 60° coordination. a cube can only hold its shape if you put in the diagonals, inadvertently creating a tetrahedron inside it. There's some amazing videos here on youtube that show Buckies presentations of models and more models explaining Synergetics. Furthermore there's his 1800 pages work on Synergetics and a very great comprehensible book by Amy Edmundson giving a short, but mindblowing "Fuller Explanation".

[@urble]

gotta love the 4D scarf tho

[@brsshooter8684]

I had been thinking about 4D for a while and when I saw your video, it was exactly how I imagined it: having to see stuff distort when rotating about the 4D axis. When things are perceived from a different angle, they should look different in the shape, kinda like seeing two hands from the front but one hand shaped differently from the sides. That makes sense cuz we live in a 3D world. So it makes sense for something to look different when it is seen from another angle - 4 dimensionally. It also means the crystals and trees in the areashould have certain components only seen from one angle and when rotating about the 4D axis the other components can be seen. But then I thought about the character himself. Since he can rotate about the 4 dimension, we should probably see him change into 'another form' and look different, even from a bird eye view. And maybe the lighting of the area may have to change because of how light works (thats if light is 3D). I even thought it might even be a cool idea if the colors might even change (or invert :v) because of the different lighting. Sorry for the long comment, tho I'll be happy if you saw my thoughts. I enjoyed the video so much and cant wait for the game to come out :D

[@coopergates9680]

The game is analogous to MRI images; seeing cuts of objects, not like a full head or body. A slice of a cube may look like a square or hexagon, but not a square drawn inside a square or two squares with vertices connected (typical cube drawings).

[@MuzikBike]

0:16 if anyone's struggling with the pronunciation

[@Sobhancraft]

I’m not

[@iRsemple]

This video came so close to getting me to understand the process. Would love to see a 4D slider cut into the mesh of the 3D object. For example, at 3:04 I can see that the crystal is a collection of those -hedrons. Would love to see if on that image you took a 4D cut of the 3D image, what new 3D image would be displayed? And another cut? And another? When the screen had like 50 crystals all of different lengths at different angles and of the same color, it was difficult to see the changes when you would take a tiny step in the 4th dimension

[@heckyes]

I don't get it. What does the 4th number represent? What makes this so significant? To me it just looks like a 3d game with the 2.5d camera and the scenery changes around when you move and you can rotate the camera?

[@Dylan_Thomas1]

For me it's surreal and fascinating. I can't comprehend a 4 dimensional object, but here you see infinite 3D cross sections of 4 dimensional objects. It bends reality in my mind.

[@Fucisko]

The 4th number represents another dimension. Imagine a 2D plane (like a paper), and then put a bunch of them together. Just stack a bunch of papers together, and the stack of papers is your 3d world. But you can only move in on one paper, and then between the papers. So you have like a dot on a paper that can move around, and can "jump" up to or down to the paper next to it's current paper. Now the problematic part, imagine stucking a bunch of 3d spaces together to form a 4d world. You really can't imagine it since we live in a 3d universe. To us there is simply nothing else than the 3d universe, there is nowhere "next to it" to put another 3d space. But if we lived in a 4d world it'd would basically be mutltiple 3d universes next to each other. So the 4th number tells you which 3d space you're currently in.

[@heckyes]

Gotcha. So its exactly as I described it. Thank you.

[@Fucisko]

Luke Gege Try reading my previous comment

[@Fucisko]

My point is that no, it's not a 3D object. It's just projected as such.

[@andrewbrown8956]

Has anyone else read _The Long Earth_? Fourth dimensional analogues of our "Datum" Earth are discovered, though they are discrete, rather than continuous, like this.Brilliant game design; I hope we get to play it soon.

[@abuzzedwhaler7949]

What software would you use? 4ds max? Cinema5d? 😂👌

[@MaxLohMusic]

I thought about this exact concept. I was thinking maybe the human brain is not limited to comprehending 3D space, and a baby raised in a 4D world might intuitively understand 4 spatial dimensions. To take it a step further, if we had a brain interface we might be able to stimulate the senses in a way that a real 4D creature would encounter, and would not be possible in a 3D world. I then pondered how we'd know how to model the objects in a 4D world, having had no data to go on. Great job on making a small part of my dream a reality

[@yongamer]

I want to create a game which is inspired by Platos cave allegory. I look at his allegory as a journy from living in 2 dimensions and discovering a 3rd dimension.

[@RussellTeapot]

If you like the subject, I suggest you to read "Flatland", by Edwin Abbott (which is mentioned in the video). The whole plot is very similar to Plato's cave allegory

[@yongamer]

You are right, I should definitely give it a shot.

[@nameguy101]

2d to 3d is a tired trope in games. Super Paper Mario and Fez are two _major_ titles (almost "classics") that are already based on that premise. A game inspired by Plato's cave is interesting to literary critics, not game designers - I guarantee it won't yield interesting play behaviour.

[@tiagotiagot]

+Nameguy Maybe Vegard will have some new insight on how to make it interesting?

[@yongamer]

Nameguy Super mario and Fez focus more in the direction of puzzle in 2 and 3 dimensions. I'm thinking about an artistic puzzle game that is more about experiencing going from 2 to 3 dimensions. Maybe having the first half of the game assuming that there is only 2 dimensions, and then figuring out that there was a third dimension all the time. Throughaout this first half I might also add some hints to this. In this game you might go back to experience the same map in 3 dimensions, but with another challenge in mind.

[@MaksymCzech]

Mind=Blown Amazing what we can do with technology these days. Dank stuff!

[@tomaszdzieduszynski]

I don't really like the idea of just showing the section. It's like a 2D game would show 3D as a section view (like in mario). Instead - 2D games can easily show 3D projection of space (with perspective). What I would really want to see, would be 2D perspective projection (could be stereoscopic to make it more clear) of stereoscopic 4D to 3D projection. Probably with some limited "depth" of vision to minimize overlaping effect. With some smart i.e. color design (clear, and readable) that should be possible to do.

[@coopergates9680]

Want to make your own 4D engine?

[@thomaskaldahl196]

great idea, but it has a sort of cluttering effect. you end up being forced to use wireframe graphics, and unless u restrict the game to simple geometry, the whole screen becomes a mess of intersecting lines

[@sgbench]

I suppose that with VR, you could project 4D objects onto the 3D virtual space, losing only one dimension instead of the two lost in this video. But I bet it would still take a long time to develop an intuition for such a projection.

[@theotryhard8651]

your eyes can only see 2d ffs

[@Lanarri]

is developement of the game is still alive? May be you can release what is available for now as some demo???

[@harleyspeedthrust4013]

I made my first first-person shooter (and engine) when I was fifteen. I guess it's time to make an FPS in 4D.

[@edridgedsouza1170]

3:17 does anyone have a link to any sources about the link between high-dimensional spaces and crystal structures?

[@tehlazercat8438]

this is how portal 3 is gonna work I bet

[@lmeza1983]

HL3 will work on 6 spatial dimensions plus time travel in 12 directions! each one as DLC, obviously.

[@blzy2305]

One direction = 10$ each

[@iwjki1089]

Holy sh*t. I think, I get, how 4D movement works O_0 Like, really, I get it. That's insanely exciting and terrific at the same time. Thank you a lot for deep and sophisticated work!

[@videogameguy9093]

The reason it's difficult to visualize 4D objects is because it's impossible. Just as it's impossible for a 2d entity to visualize 3D objects, and it's impossible for a 4D entity to visualize 5D objects.

[@Colopty]

Not necessarily, we make great visualizations of 3D objects on a 2D screen, we might be able to make a working visualization of 4D objects too one day once someone reaches some kind of enlightened state after playing with these sort of games enough to "get it". It's gonna be really freaking mind melting once that happens, though.

[@victorsousa7239]

Colopty Even if there was a software that could let us be able to "see" a 4d object, we could't see, all we would see is just a projection of a 4d object in the 3d.

[@rohanofelvenpower5566]

Videogameguy909 its not impossible. it doesnt exist! its illogical!

[@ImaginationVisinity]

Videogameguy909 do yo ever wonder what the hell kind of perception a 2d being actually has? their reality would obviously be a slice of ours. when they look around would they really just see like lines or something? only moving up, down forward and back but if they did see lines then how thick would they be?

[@ImaginationVisinity]

Videogameguy909 wait, lines would be 1d. so could they look around but only up down forward and back but not side to side. yea they would see 1d just like how we only see 2d technically, except our brain generates 3d concept with.. time i guess😕

[@cheychc]

This game looks absolutely fantastic! I'm so excited to play it!

[@TymphaRedbreaduwuowo]

4th dimension is time no?

[@Fucisko]

In our 3d universe, yes. However this game takes place in a 4d universe, where 5th dimension is time. It simply has 4 spatial dimensions, instead of our 3 spatial dimensions.

[@firstnamelastname-oy7es]

Dimensions can be anything. It's just another number involved in the computation. Often times in our culture, we equate the 4th dimension to time, with the three previous ones being some form of distance that are all perpendicular to each other.

[@dinowibisono99]

i think the 4th dimension will become more intuitively easier to visualize if instead of seeing one 3d slice at a time, what you are seeing is multiple layers of 3d slices at once, but 'farther' 3d slices (in 4th dimension) are rendered more transparent than the 3d slices 'closer' to your current slice. because unlike 1:30, in real life our 2d vision dont just see one slice of 3d objects since it can also perceive 3d depth

[@Chief-wx1fj]

Very clever and all that shit, but is it fun to play?

[@themannyzaur]

Most. Epic. Comment. Ever!

[@vicenteisaaclopezvaldez2450]

Stiff Gam If you like puzzles the possibility might be "yes", maybe some platforming and, y'know, I can think of a couple of ways you can use the 4th dimension to make a game, like, if It works like I think it does it might be the nearest we can get to teleportation. So long story short: if done well.

[@99drift]

Are the instruments of cinema used only to make fun and enjoyable pieces of film to watch while eating popcorn? Absolutely not. they are used also with analytics intents, to make documentaries for example, to explore new visual techniques, experiment, or maybe simply to explain something. We have the possibility and most importantly the need to get everything out of each form of expression. Software included. Because videogames are first of all pieces of software, programmed exactly like any other, not witchcraft. Now, try to see this as the first interactive essay about a possible rendition of the 4th dimension. Not all essays or lectures try to be fun, accessible or joyful to communicate their content. And when they do they're probably not written by an academic, but more likely by a writer with creative talent who got interested into that matter. We're not in the 90's anymore, developers have finally more freedom than ever, and the number of home-consoles in our houses will rise exponentially. Why would a powerful hardware like for example a ps4, an accessible and easy to use piece of hardware, be relegated to just play heavy-involving games? And I'm not talking about other entertainment services like streaming and such that xbox is pushing so hard. Im talking about different kinds of *experiences*, such as The Last Guardian, mocked by the incompetent buch of idiots that is videogame press for not being as responsive as other games only because it tried to simulate a living and disobedient creature aka artificial intelligence. Should every game have the option to be speedrun or exploited to be released? Are we insane? That game is a milestone in programming and on top of that gifted us with atmospheres and artistic elements that most of the hollywood flicks can't even reach. If you want fun games theres a clusterfuck of them, and a lot good too. And who knows maybe Migekure will be fun too, it's too early too judge. Just don't pretend everything to be Mad Max, because some people also want Stalker in their lives, understand?

[@floorpuncher3280]

Wow

[@hunan131]

This is incredibly inspiring. Thank you for working on the game.