Desktop Environments Vs Window Managers

In this video I discuss some of the differences between desktop environments and window managers, and some of my advantages by using a window manager.
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[@YouKnowMeDuh]

i actually didn't realize that you could get as minimal as using a window manager. i had no idea there was anything less than a desktop environment, since i thought that you could either use just command line or just a desktop environment. really changes my perspective of minimalism with linux.

[@billeterk]

You can run without a DE or WM - just the X Server. One of my friends at uni did that c.1997. Not recommended though :-)

[@aiosquadron]

@@billeterk Tried that. It was hell times 10 raised to the 6th power.

[@theqwertyman9309]

@@aiosquadron Not just Hell, but MegaHell

[@bigroddempsey4082]

@@billeterk That sounds chaotic LOL

[@billeterk]

@@bigroddempsey4082 Emacs users (rolls eyes)

[@justanobody2347]

When ram usage on gentoo is 46mb, meanwhile windows 10 struggling with 8gb ram

[@rarminqorset3628]

@@creepysmilingcarl9742 harsh but true

[@jasonking1284]

So why is 46MB so important when nowadays the typical minimum RAM installed is 8GB....

[@rarminqorset3628]

@@jasonking1284 it's about pushing the limits. With your attitude there would be no laptops today

[@jasonking1284]

​@@rarminqorset3628 There is no need to "push the limits" to achieve tiny memory footprints in an OS meant to be used on desktop or even laptops that are equipped with Gigabytes of RAM. A few hundred Meg or even a GIG is fine.

[@rarminqorset3628]

@@jasonking1284 ok so no Android phone would be made if no boundaries were pushed by your definition. Why didn't we stop at 8 KB ram or at 64MB ram. They kept pushing the limits which made today's 1 GB ram and 128 GB ram stick a possibility. Don't argue on this there is no possible way you will win. FYI just check storage prices drop after SDD were made mainstream just as a rough reminder or in ram scenario we have now gddr6 why not stop at gddr2? That produced decent games.

[@tangibleblockofwisdom6386]

Thankyou for the explicit definition of a window manager - instantly got info that has been obfuscated in a sea of taxonomy (Linux is good like that) or neglected entirely as details they don’t think of as important. Cheers

[@gogogogogogogogogogog9]

how did u manage to get only 46MB of ram ! the lowest i can get is 260

[@TheB3n0]

I guess that's Gentoo optimizations he did

[@fatihonal6273]

i remember years ago i could get debian + xfce running only at 40-50 MB. now it is almost tenfold...

[@XDjUanZInHO]

@@fatihonal6273 systems evolve, they gain functionality and become more powerful, having 32gbs of ram is not so distant today as it was years ago. Tho I can relate, I still wasn't able to buy more ram to my machines so I do my best to keep the system usage low at startup to leave the rest for the processes

[@octavylon9008]

on a gentoo tty i get like 26mb. in Xorg i3wm with xterm i get like 66mb

[@stepsistertrap5992]

My guess is that since he is using an optimised Gentoo in a virtual machine, he has much lesser RAM usage depicted than the actual one being used by the entire system.

[@thessalonikiosmusv]

I think having a screen that is larger than 1080p would benefit from tiling window manager very well. Using tiling window manager on a 768p screen isn't comfortable.

[@alexy.3512]

What you want for TWM is an ultrawide monitor.

[@GafftheHorse]

Not entirely true. It's a common thought from desktop users that you'd need a hi resolution, large screened installation for a tiler to feel usable. Possibly because the thought is you'd run out of space for all the open windows I started using a tiler full time when on a netbook (10 inch screen, 1024x600 res), mostly one application per workspace or tag, some tilers allow you to tab windows.

[@alfiegordon9013]

IME it’s the other way round, tilers are perfect for low res screens because of the auto positioning and lack of window decorations

[@fatboy158]

@@GafftheHorse I think the idea is that if you have a 720p screen in quarters, 360p windows don't look very good

[@purpleorange8898]

There are multiple workspaces and things like stacking and tabbed modes

[@DanesZalor]

i didnt know 46mb was possible, my most minimal arch install ive accomplished (with a window manager) is dwm and at best, it uses 270mb upon startx

[@fluked1576]

probably also because he uses gentoo.

[@notjoss]

@@fluked1576 oh God I hope Gentoo users don't start calling Arch bloated. The logical conclusion to this is people who reorder their own logic gates, instead of writing something user friendly like machine code, calling LFS bloatware.

[@krozareq]

There's a lot of factors such as using LUKS encrypted partitions and how many partitions are connected is a big one. Using RAM is a good thing. It's fairly cheap stuff and far faster than more reads and writes to a drive. Some memory being allocated will yield to other processes when demand necessitates it.

[@alexevier]

my debian11 install with sddm and dwm uses only 183mb of ram lol

[@MrBeiragua]

My smallest arch install had ~150mb of memory usage after boot, and I used lxde at the time. I don't know how much I would use with only a wm.

[@johnmcway6120]

I do a lot of operational work on top of programming. That being, said I always have a lot of different windows open. Tried KDE for a month and it was just impossible to deal with. But it's hard not to appreciate little inbuilt things such as network applets, sound device managers, multiple monitor support, language switcher and many more things people take as a given.

[@obslsessed5472]

have you considered swapping out kwin for another window manager (e.g. i3, bspwm (personal favorite), openbox etc.), that way plasma can handle your notifications, panels, networking, locales, etc., while your window manager of choice, well, manages your windows? alternatively, if you still want to use kwin, you can use a kwin script (e.g. bismuth or krohnkite, both with pretty good tiling capabilities)

[@johnmcway6120]

@@obslsessed5472 awesome wm all the way baby

[@obslsessed5472]

@@johnmcway6120 ok well that doesn't really answer my question, and for the record, it's possible to use plasma with awesomewm instead of kwin, too

[@johnmcway6120]

@@obslsessed5472 if your question was whether I considered, I'd say I did, but found no success. I tried once but it ended up feeling messy and weird. If there's comprehensive material on how to make the upper-mentioned awesome wm + plasma look and feel nice, please share

[@obslsessed5472]

@@johnmcway6120 i'm gonna be honest, i've tried replying five times now and i don't know what i'm saying that makes them get removed :(

[@riseabove3082]

I run a custom i3wm that boots up to 245MB. Not as low as yours but still less than a full DE. DWM is a Dynamic Window Manager (it's in it's name) and i3wm is a static tiling window manager where you manually manage where the windows open to. I prefer static. Also, I want to expand on your explanation of the differences between a TWM and a DE. A DE is a full fledged desktop containing the menu system, taskbar, notification system, system settings, appearance, and so much more than a TWM is. TWM offloads all that bloat to be so much more lightweight. A TWM uses a very lightweight terminal too. You will also notice because of the loss of the bloat when you open and run the same programs in TWM compared to in a DE they will use less ram than they do in a full DE. So TWMs have some good advantages over a DE. I use it because I like the low RAM usage and I like the minimalist look.

[@BlindRambler]

Just messing with the windows I think proves a very important point for productivity. Ricing, or configuring your window manager doesn't have to be a long one sit down session or a few. You can actually do that as you go along. Which I recommend, the slow and steady way allows you to learn how you want things to work, how the window manager works, how the pc works, and how it all will ultimately work for you. Don't like the Vim keys? Remap it for you. Don't want to see anything but the windows, but do want a pop-up menu on-call? Do it. Don't want anything pre-installed? A minimalist install is the way to go, bare in mind that going that route does mean that you will have to edit configurations yourself, however this is still true for bloated environments. You'd still have to write your macros, and do even a bit of work.

[@lucasteganox9049]

Since i "discovered" twm i use nothing else. I really love it's minimalism and efficiency as well as the low resource usage.

[@folksurvival]

Install Gentoo.

[@SimGunther]

He literally said it at about 0:30 that this was a Gentoo box with just a tiling wm. Besides, who cares if you connect to a linux box via X2Go from any other OS? The important thing is that you're having fun with linux your way. :)

[@folksurvival]

@@SimGunther It's a meme buddy.

[@SimGunther]

@@folksurvival Don't worry. I'm a living meme that decided to build their own 16bit computer from a breadboard. Trust me, the wiring was a living nightmare and I can get Doom running at 20fps.

[@aedd3307]

@@SimGunther How did you play doom in it? was there a port for it or did you program it yourself?

[@zyan983]

@@aedd3307 Re-wrote the game from scratch.

I have been using i3 for a year or two and loved and still do every second of it. Agree with the small footprint btw.

[@rubenbiskupec8442]

I'm a noob, can you still launch stuff like Dolphin, VsCode and so on?

[@evanbarter7549]

@@rubenbiskupec8442 yes you can

[@ethenblackmore6543]

I've been watching your videos for a few months now. You find a way to confuse me more and more everyday.

[@platonymous]

I’ve never fallen in love with super minimal setups like literally just using a windows manager

[@DannyMexen9]

What are your thoughts on pop shell extension

[@soulofhogwarts]

Hey Mental Outlaw, how do you handle cdrom with WM or with dmenu?

[@rochr4]

eject

[@leonardoantonio8756]

DWM makes me remember the first pc we had at home I think my dad bought it in 1989 or 1990 a 286 pc clone of a brand I don't remember, came with an amber yellow display monitor and a deskmate desktop installed

[@isweartofuckinggod]

Cool! This is the kind of thing that inspired me as a kid and made me want to become a programmer.

[@timkilian7140]

At the end. It's the same... As long as you put the work in it. A desktop environment is an already configured window manager.

[@x0rn312]

What is that color palette that shows up at the bottom when he runs neo fetch It's visible starting at around 1:05 I've seen that in a few distros and I'm wondering what it is

[@luisalejandrohernandezmaya254]

I agree with you that DWM is better than the KDE desktop. But it is possible to easily create shortcuts in KDE that place the windows like that.

[@encycl07pedia-]

Sure, you can create shortcuts, but every single time you want to move windows, you have to press that shortcut, vs. letting a WM like DWM do it automatically. If you're worried about RSI and carpal tunnel, that's not good. DWM can also do monocle mode (my preference) instead: it basically maximizes every window. I'm pretty sure KDE WM can't do window tagging, either. It's similar to workspaces, but it's more flexible. All that in a much smaller footprint, too.

[@pain16tdn45]

@@encycl07pedia- there are scripts for tiling your windows in auto like Krohnkite

[@encycl07pedia-]

​@@pain16tdn45 That's fine, but my point is DWM does that and more in a smaller program. I don't hate KDE, BTW; I just don't like DEs in general: they're bulky and slower in my experience. Also the GUI settings interfaces (like "Tweaks" vs. "Preferences" in XFCE) are more cryptic than helpful in DEs. I'd rather grep a config file than click around through various pop-up windows in vain searching for an option that is exceptionally well-hidden or doesn't exist in the first place. Tons of Windows 10 tutorials are worthless because MS changed the GUI and paths to certain settings drastically over the various updates. All that vs. making a few tweaks to a pre-built makefile and compiling it in DWM. In my opinion, the answer is simple.

[@RedVRCC]

What I wanna know is how do you even open or search for programs? There's like no desktop area at all so I got no clue where you even go to start things up...

[@Swenthorian]

I used to use a custom config for AwesomeWM, and a number of separate applets to handle eg volume, networking, etc. But modern KDE has really really improved. Memory usage is way down, and as a DE, it comes with everything out-of-the-box, except AwesomeWM's tiling. Plus, I like many of KDE's builtins better than the standalone applets I'd been using. And it's possible to configure it to behave similarly to AwesomeWM, minus the tiling. So I've returned to KDE. I might eventually slap a tiling WM on top of it, because tiling is nice; but idk that I'm going back to a WM-only setup.

[@gh0stcassette]

You can get a tiling script for kwin that mimics a tiling window manager, that's what I'm using

[@red13emerald]

I’m in the same boat. I used i3 for a long time and experimented with other WMs, but at some point I had to accept that dealing with all that stuff, reading documentation just to change a setting in a config file somewhere, moving windows around constantly and trying to craft a system that worked perfectly worked for my ever-changing usecases just took more time than the keyboard shortcuts and automatic tiling saved. So I tried out KDE and it just feels much less restrictive. I set up a few shortcuts for launching a terminal and managing windows, and that’s it. I am quite curious about swapping out kwin with a different WM, though, that sounds like it could give me the best of both worlds.

[@s9209122222]

That's why I love Gnome3 with Pop Shell extension.

[@volkov3310]

Well, yeah, but lets be honest: Pop_OS's tiling manager kinda sucks at the moment You can't even change how windows's will be placed, unlike i3, awesome, etc

[@s9209122222]

@@volkov3310 Yeah, that's why I'm using gnome tiling assistant now, pop shell extension often doesn't support the latest Gnome either.

[@s9209122222]

@@lain9719 I don't know, I haven't used it for a long time.

[@sc0or]

My first comment under the first video with a twm I saw was "this is a wasting of time and mind capacity". But after I setup i3 from a scratch one piece after another, I realized that any twm makes an iPhone out of your Linux )) Seriously, a twm defines how you will use your lInux on a daily basis. And these definitions are quite simple. Like a tapping on an iOS icon. I can put all programs I use during a working day in a config, and after I log in my working environment is ready and organized. The only difference between them is how configuration is made: in a config file, in a bash script, or even in a source code. Besides, setting up a twm gives you a good idea about how DE works.

[@charleyfarley4769]

@mentaloutlaw what about things like fonts, or window colours or themes or other things related to the gui - are things like this managed by a window manager or by a desktop? Also, are tools provides to change fonts. themes, etc part of the window mananger or DE?

[@anomishfish]

@Charley Farley Themes are handled by GTK/Qt which are independent to the DE itself. Most DEs have a built in applet that lets you switch themes, but there are a handful standalone applications that allow you to change themes through a GUI. Editing the GTK/Qt config file also works! Fonts, unlike themes, depend on the WM (for the most part). Several window managers let you choose the font in their settings/config. Also, fonts can be handled through GTK/Qt so they can be changed in the same manner as themes, i.e. by applet or config (most of theme selectors let you change fonts as well). If all else fails, you can always edit ~/.Xdefaults to hard-set the font for the X server. So, to answer your question, it really depends. It’s the DE that has the features integrated, but the stuff lying underneath is handled separately from both the window manager and DE.

[@Forgiale]

I’m a fairly new linux user (been switching between Windows 11 Superlite and various flavors of Linux, now I’m running Mint for good). Just switched from cinnamon to i3. I actually noticed a performance difference in my games, and it feels great to switch windows and workspaces with the push of a key or two. Never going back.

[@yungdnny]

I was looking into window managers for the same reason, I missed the snapping that windows has but I installed kde and the kwin window manager snaps everything perfectly and even has a windows plus arrow key shortcut mapped out so that you can snap even better than windows. Thanks for the info on window managers.

[@aquaponieee]

KDE has a feature that if you slam the windows at a corner or edge it can make a window fill a half or a quarter of the screen automatically, try it it makes that spit screen thingy irrelevant

[@mskiptr]

Still, you need to actively move the window, regardless if it's via keyboard, precise mouse movement or slamming it at the edge, while in (tiling) WMs, everything is aligned by default.

[@Kookookaka638o]

would you mind de-ess'ing your audio? or doing a quick high frequency filter a bit?

[@Epsilonsama]

I tried tiling wm for years but they are such a pain in the ass to deal with IMO and while cool for heavy terminal use if you use graphical programs they are a bitch to use IMO.

[@stacksmasherninja7266]

Dude your dwm box is in VM. I don't think you daily drive gentoo + dwm ? Don't you use Mint ?

[@chloemccarthy2297]

I was just thinking today how windows are managed. Neat

[@nyankers]

I like window managers for stuff like laptops for various reasons (smaller footprint visually and on the system, less mouse use, etc.) For a full desktop, I've found I nevertheless prefer a full desktop environment (albeit a lighter one like xfce). CLI file browsers are great in either case, like ranger, nnn, etc.

[@MKULTRA_Victim_]

Thanks for this comment, never new CLI file manager was a thing

[@marcelfernandezromero8905]

Do you happen to know of a stacking window manager that allows you to set bottom rounded corners with drop shadow without drawing a disgusting looking frame on the outside? the xfc3 window manager has this problem so I can't have rounded corners with drop shadow.

[@fpgamemearray]

you could try sowm, it's a floating wm though

[@LucianC137]

openbox.

[@saidabbossadikov2222]

Actuallly, you can manually set rules for KDE's KWin WM on how it should tile and resize windows making it pretty much a tiling WM

[@harrison805]

This has made me appreciate desktop environments

[@RedVRCC]

Same... I have no clue how he even opens programs or anything. I don't see any shortcuts or app menus or anything. I'd be lost as hell if I used just a window manager.

[@MsDuketown]

I almost tiled into this ramble😂 Could you do a vid explaining 2D and 3D graphics as well?

[@Maisonier]

What do you think about hyprland? could you make a comparison please good lord?

[@diegonayalazo]

Thanks for sharing

[@mrsaitou-kun1212]

For KDE's Konsole, you can honestly just use the split option from the "View" menu. But it is true that DEs take a lot more resources. But in my opinion, DEs can be just as versatile and usable. To each their own tho!

[@Winnetou17]

I have two questions. Forgive me if they are extremely stupid. 1) Can you minimize a window in dwm ? And in WMs in general ? (when using just them, without a DE). I'm asking because I'm actually keeping a lot of programs open usually (currently still in Windows), like several terminals, notepad++, 2-3 browsers (and FFX and Chrome usually have 2+ windows opened too), PHPStorm, Skype, Teams, File manager(s) and task manager. And some I don't REALLY need to keep them open at all times, but I do like the instant switch. 2) Can you install and run something like Firefox without a DE and a WM ? I assume that yes, you can, provided you have a ... graphical system (??) like X ? I might confusing a lot of stuff here. I'm just curious what is exactly needed for what.

[@ukraniankgb9131]

1) I don't know how to minimize in a tiling wm, but usually you can hide a program by moving it into another workspace. Different from a normal desktop enviroment you actually use workspaces in a tiling wm. 2) You can run firefox in just X, but you'll run in problems like not being able to resize and/or move the window, and also if you execute multiple graphics programs they will overlap, there's also the risk of getting stuck in a empty X session if you close the program but the server doesn't. Other than it should run fine.

[@Winnetou17]

@@ukraniankgb9131 Thanks!

[@hamzawinix7492]

In I3 wm u can resize any window freely as well as cycle between float and tiling mode, u can also freeze a window on a certai group of pixals in float mode so u can interact with another float windows without removing focus from the freezed window, u can run firefox in full screen or float and websites load without any difference than using a de, only problem is that i remember setting up multiple monitors that are different in resolution to be problematic and needs tinkering

[@rialseebran2072]

window managers have multiple workspaces so you can group windows together In split screen and what you don't have space for you put on a different workspace. It sounds complicated but it's actually intuitive. And with regards to Firefox. Yes it does run. Applications are independent of the window manager/desktop manager. All GUIs will work

[@Mike09017]

Can you browse the Internet (like with a normal browser) on Gentoo?

[@kquote03]

of course? It's just another linux distro, all the browsers available on any other distro are available on gentoo

[@Subzearo]

You can't even set a wallpaper slideshow in a window manager meme/10

[@zyugyzarc]

you can write a script for that tho

[@doommaker4000]

@@zyugyzarc And the "wasting time" argument goes outta the window

[@mrfluffy9273]

Well yes you can remember when he said you can customise it however you want this includes wallpaper setors like variety. Bam you have a slideshow wallpaper. WM are way better for customisation then any desktop environment. Not just for looks but also for work flow.

[@Subzearo]

@@mrfluffy9273 Variety will only work with GNOME

[@mrfluffy9273]

@@Subzearo kind of strange how its running on my xmonad then.

[@JotaleaGG]

I'm very new at using Linux, and I wanted to use i3-wm on Arch (on a VM), but it was the worst idea I could ever have: The screen turned all black, there was nothing but some numbers in (what I assume that was) a bottom bar (I assume those numbers were buttons to change workspaces, like I have on my actual computer), but neither the keyboard or the mouse worked. If anyone knows what happened or how to make it work, please tell me.

[@misscutie264]

thank you for the explanation! i also didn’t realize a modern desktop without a DE is possible.. i like the minimalism and focus on using the keyboard more (i hate using a mouse and trackpad!) i use feren os with plasma and i really like the design, so my question is: is it possible to easily configure a WM to have a taskbar with global menu (like in mac os or feren os) and add latte dock?

[@shadesoftime]

On i3(and I think any other tiling wm) you can set the window rule for latte dock window to always be floating and then it won't have a black background. And what do you mean by a menu? If you mean configuring the wm itself - I doubt any frontends exist, editing the config/source code(if it's dwm) is a vetter solution. If you mean setting stuff like video drivers etc., it's entirely possible, look up whatever you need. If you meant something like the start menu in windows - bruh, dmenu is preinstalled on most wms, you just type the program name in and it starts it

[@steve_account]

Video games is my largest problem. I use Linux to fix problems or other tech support but i use windows for videogames with ANTI Cheat/ difficult to maintain video games. If all games just "worked" when i clicked them in linux I would totally fully change.

[@jakemastandrea6872]

Same here with games, also if ms Office and Adobe apps were on Linux id fully switch, Right now I dual boot.

[@avithedev]

Same here

[@RoyalProtectorate]

Hopefully with valves solution fix for Anti-chest in the latest kernel coming out will allow you to play all your games on Linux

[@batuhanakyol8722]

@@RoyalProtectorate nope, nothing happaned.

[@nakelekantoo]

My games work fine on linux so I changed entirely but I see why you don't

[@YannMetalhead]

Good video.

[@fan_juggler]

As a KDE fanboy i must protest :) - uninstalling "all the bloat" from Plasma takes 30 seconds in the app center, while configuring WM based system from scratch takes days. - kwin can perfectlt tile windows via meta+arrows so it is just as easy as in other WMs - you can install tiling script on kwin to tile automatically - memory comparison is not accurate. The same Linux installation booted with I3, for example, and with Plasma takes the same 700-800mb.

[@areg7182]

-A WM based system takes more time to configure because it gives you more flexibility. KDE doesn't do that. -Don't compare kwin's meta+arrows to a real tiling window manager. They are VERY different. -The tiling scripts just aren't good enough. I am a KDE+Tiling script user myself and I always yearn to have a real twm. Thy coe only reason I don't get it is that I'm too lazy, but I'll probably end up switching over in the next few weeks. -The memory comparison does seem to be accurate for the most part. I have tried bspwm + arch in a VM, and it idles at ~130mb. Way less than KDE+Arch, which for me was around ~800mb.

[@fan_juggler]

@@areg7182 I understand and agree with all that, but I argue against particular claims like "DM takes so long to debloat" (it's not), "you cannot tile windows with keyboard in kwin" (you can), and memory comparison of bare gentoo+wm against full installation of a system with DM (surely kind of window manager is not the only source of memory difference here).

[@dakto388]

I had been using i3 for many years but last year I switched to Plasma. I don't think your points are valid anymore (at least for a regular desktop/laptop): 1) Yeah, DEs use more ram. But does that really matter? Most people have at least 16gb, and I couldn't care less if my PC uses 300mb more on startup. Unused RAM is wasted RAM. I do however very much care about how much time I spend setting up my stuff and even how much I actually enjoy working with my PC - cause it directly affects my productivity. 2) Same thing as above + it's really easy to install just core KDE. 3) Yeah, I also love tiling. It can also easily be done in Plasma (Krohnkite plugin).

[@poseidon3032]

So a window manager is like a graphical shell? DOS Shell comes to mind in the early DOS days.

[@jovanmilic8484]

My gentoo with dwm is like 300mb. I think this 40mb of ram is only possible on vm some or I am just too stupud..

[@lucassantossj]

VM is really not fair.

[@anowarabegum4660]

What is his host system, Linux Mint?I have seen him use it in couple of videos

[@joetreadonme]

Kububtu minimalist install option only installs file manager, window manager, terminal and browser. Maybe a half dozen random utilities. It also comes with shortcuts setup to snap windoes left snd right.

[@user-yn6ii7ys3u]

In kde you can use tiling scripts like krunkite etc

[@Cookiekeks]

I wonder what you run as your main OS because I always thought your gentoo system isn't a VM

[@smittywermen8418]

I think it’s linux mint but i could be wrong

[@Cookiekeks]

@@smittywermen8418 Yes I also think it is

[@kotia5518]

There are plenty of kwin tiling scripts, that work just like any of the other tiling window managers. I use KDE at work, i dont usually have situation where i need to have multiple programs visible at the same time. i have second screen where i have my terminal (konsole) open split into two. I wouldnt even have enough screen space to have both terminal and code editor open at the same time, since my code editor itself is split into multiple views. KDE is great if you use its default applications, like i do. I use most of them and have been doing so for a long time. All that being said, i understand that i could have more lightweight experience if i invested time on trying out different setups and so on, but i guess switching and the whole "ricing" thing is just not appealing to me anymore. I really dont try or install any new software anymore unless it has some functionality that i absolutely need and the software i already have installed cannot offer. I think this is something that will eventually happen to a lot of people who use linux.

[@clutterkase]

i love using window managers. after i got used to i3-gaps, moving to stuff like gnome, kde, and esp windows/macos felt slower in every respect. without good window tiling, i feel like im just fighting programs everytime i need to switch between stuff

[@wumbo5]

i use cinnamon partly b/c it has the window snap shortcuts setup out of the box, i wish quarter tiling was more common

[@vrumivruni]

I think you convinced me

[@airpods4]

bodhi linux Desktop environment is 7mb to 20mb max. But only on fresh install on my experience.

[@AntiWanted]

Nice

[@framepointer]

gnome has a pretty nice plugin for tiling windows, just like i3 or bspwm do

[@NoName-lu5tg]

what's its name

[@muIIetman]

I mean, cinnamon desktop environment is like a mix of dwm and kde. It's a simple desktop environment without all the blout you would get with kde

[@Alum1nn]

my kde didnt come with any bloat i didnt even have konsole and dolphin

[@am3nnet]

But can you use KWin only as your window manager on Gentoo without having the whole kde suite? Or can we still using the whole KDE suite but change the window manager to others like i3?

[@spartanbeef9491]

You can use Kwin independently of KDE, but it pulls in a bunch of KDE packages as dependencies and comes with some weird quirks and bugs because it expects KDE to exist. Maybe if you compile from source like gentoo does you can minimise that, IDK. It's a common problem with DE WM's- they aren't written to be platform agnostic and they end up being tightly coupled to other bits of the DE. inserting i3 into a DE works much better. You can typically just kill the original wm and add i3 to your autostart, and it work's just fine. You'll also need a standalone compositor if you want effects like transparency, because i3 doesn't have one by default. There may still be issues with parts of the DE refusing to work with an alternative WM, and if it has a control panel any settings related to the window manager won't work, and may cause crashes/instability. Having tried both myself I'd say neither are really worth it. There are standalone alternatives to all the DE components you don't get with a standalone WM, and they generally work better than DE components, because they aren't assuming X, Y and Z component will also be running.

[@am3nnet]

@@spartanbeef9491 thank you for detailed explanation. Just recently I watch video about ArchCraft Linux OS which based on Arch Linux, but user friendly installation and has GUI Desktop although it don't have Desktop Environment so it's very light on memory usage but it has Window Manager openbox + bspwm + other packages to make Desktop interface usable. Do you know about ArchCraft? I wonder why ArchCraft use 2 Window Manager? Openbox + bspwm. kzbin.info/www/bejne/rn-7ZZuVf5Z0j5o archcraft.io/features.html

[@spartanbeef9491]

@@am3nnet I've not tried it, but it looks like a nice preconfigured minimal arch setup. At a guess it includes two window managers because people get highly opinionated about them. Some people refuse to use TWM's and vice versa, so they let you choose what you want.

[@spartanbeef9491]

@@am3nnet Not tried it but it looks like a nice preconfigured arch setup. Probably has two windows managers in case you don't like TWM's or vice versa.

[@tylernol1566]

@@am3nnet I setup an ArchCraft VM the other day. I assume by now you've gone for it, but in case you haven't, you should. It's a great out of the box setup, fairly light weight. Was my first time using openbox. Pretty nice! My main linux system is Arch BTW, I set it up from scratch with bspwm, polybar, xmenu, rofi, so I was just looking for some inspiration. If I was wanting something ready to go, I thought ArchCraft was well rounded and polished! I'd use it over Arco Linux too if that were the case!

[@danapink2503]

Honestly the decision to switch to a WM was the best for me . It only takes about 400 mb ram for me lol

[@cosmo_4785]

what if i dont use ether of those

[@alexradu1921]

Okay cool, but let's assume you actually need to work.. like you need to open 1 mail client, 1 text editor for writing mails, 1 pdf for documentation, 1 IDE to view the code, another notepad to view debug logs received from client, 1-2 windows of jpegs with screenshots from client, 1 browser, and finally zoom/teams/skype, and then 2 terminals, one for local client server and one for API server... how can you manage all these with a Window Manager?

[@apurvakumardani172]

Where are the maximise, minimise and close buttons in a window manager?

[@tylernol1566]

It's usually done via keybinds.

[@blacksowrd53]

How do you switch desktop environments so quickly?

[@kohimame]

They're in the login once you install the DE, whether it's SDDM or LightDM The DE is right next to an arrow, I think? You click that and there's a drop down which shows all DE's you have Then you can login from there Well, I hope that answered your question

[@nuc5042]

@@kohimame its actually a virtual machine

[@Mathias-bz2kr]

@@kohimame he can also kill the Xorg process and change his .xinitc to starting another wm

[@rmcellig]

Excellent video! I find I get more work done in i3 than when using a DE. I haven't tried can, but now I think I will give it a try. I use Debian lxde and lxqt but I find I spend more time in i3 so what would be the best way to just install i3 or can? Install the base Debian and then i3 from the command line as well as xorg and the other goodies I need or is there an easier way? The only i3 distro I know of is Manjaro i3.

[@leoknoll5428]

If you really want a wm running solely you can install a base Debian or arch install without graphics, than pic your graphics drivers, get you display server xorg or waylan. Get you wm, i3 or awesomeWM, get you xinit running or get a login manager and than configure your desktop. In this case you would also need to get everything else running yourself as well cause there are no settings tools. Like Alsa sound with pulseaudio front server or lxappwarance for gtk themes. It's a lot of work but worth it. The other possibility is installing a desktop environment to configure everything and have settings tools in case you need them and boot into your wm instead. Third option is to use make a DE like Kde or lxce ( gnome can't anymore) use awesome or i3 as their wm.

[@rmcellig]

@@leoknoll5428 thanks for the detailed suggestions. I have tried base debian with openbox and loved it. It was so fast. With i3 instead it would be great!

[@luimu]

wms: More work, less bloat. DEs: Less work, more bloat.

[@XDjUanZInHO]

There's some nice middle ground like Openbox and awesome that are very easy to configure and are wms

[@PantsYT]

@@XDjUanZInHO Really? awesome has a long config file, and it confused me.

[@joaopauloalbq]

He made this video directly from his Linux Mint.

[@Mersal-tq9lm]

Can we use browsers and other GUI tools on window manager ?

[@spartanbeef9491]

If you mean "Can you use GUI tools on Tiling window managers?" the answer is yes. They work just as you'd expect.

[@mytop5602]

Lets say I use AntiX, can I use it without XFCE and only with IceWM?

[@garajimdakiejder2945]

Of course you can. Install iceWM, uninstall xfce and login with iceWM.

[@JoeEnderman]

Call me a noob, but I like Cinnamon. With 16Gb of RAM, ~600Mb is too light to be any bother. Cinnamon is so snappy, and it only lags when I am running it from a USB and changing large files.

[@NoName-lu5tg]

can someone tell me what is gentoo box, is that another gentoo like distro or something else edit: google only showing results about gentoo os

[@nakelekantoo]

Gentoo box is the name he himself gave to his machine, and why he chose that name is because it is inside a virtual machine, or a "box"

[@TimeTravelingFetus]

By the way, even if you don't like the tiling feature of window managers or if you just have a small screen, they can still be better than desktop environments. I mean, I always have dwm on monocle mode and just switch between the different full screen programs. just think about how often you actually need a window to be floating on your desktop.

[@RedVRCC]

How do you even open programs or anything on one of these tho? I saw no shortcuts or menus to open things from.

[@TimeTravelingFetus]

@@RedVRCC There is. Dwm comes with a shortcut that opens a menu where you can search for the program by name.

[@kid1412621]

100% CPU?

[@darksevenmaster5398]

I install plasma-desktop its less bloated

[@shaunnan146]

I like your idea, its good, desktop environment suck-up memory but how can i keep track of stocks and shares with a command line interface ?

[@alessandroferrari4699]

Shahan you know that you can use gui programs in a window manager right?

[@shaunnan146]

@@alessandroferrari4699 yes, but if its only CLI then how?

[@kumartatsat868]

@@shaunnan146 use curl to output a page to a terminal, and bind this shortcut to a key combo.

[@zyan983]

@@shaunnan146 Why don't you want to use CLI? Why not a GUI app. Pretty sure you could use the 'curl' cmd.

[@johanb.7869]

I guess it's just what your used to. Personally I don't like tyling window managers like i3, Herbstluft, xmonad and others because I hate keyboard shortcuts and only have Thunderbird and Firefox open. And ram nowadays isn't much of a problem.

[@leoknoll5428]

I'm the opposite:D, I like to do as much as possible with the keyboard since I don't like using my laptop trackpad. Amazing thing about Linux is, you can do what ever floats your boat ✌️

[@SFSAtlas]

I use Arch with DWM and It's good cause you can compile faster and stuff

[@TheB3n0]

Damn, my Arch with DWM takes whole ~350MB of RAM

[@TheB3n0]

@Red Ape I have pretty bloated config tbh

[@rizkyadiyanto7922]

how though?

[@jovanmilic8484]

My gentoo with dwm is like 300mb. I think this 40mb of ram is only possible on vm some or I am just too stupud..

[@gabrielgomez2483]

@@jovanmilic8484 Did you build your kernel? Also using modules will help significantly with that as only the ones in use will load unlike built-ins.

[@coolguy-hu4ou]

I agree with you, but i can't be bothered to configure and learn that stuff so im gonna stick with using a desktop environment

[@thePyiott]

I have now watched hours of videos on wms, what wm to use, and if I should use one at all, and I dont even use linux

[@kohimame]

I was the same as well I was hypnotized by the setups on r/unixporn and ended up using Linux

[@mskiptr]

Try it out on a second laptop!

[@RobsonLanaNarvy]

The last station aways will be openBSD CLI TUI only

[@teksimian]

he fell for the Gentoo meme

[@Nearnface]

wowowow

[@oflameo8927]

Fbonacci split?

[@persona2293]

Aside from memory footprint, it's just flexing.

[@ab1577]

1991: 46MB that's a lot

[@___xyz___]

1:25 presumably because they don't want to limit their computers to a full screen console environment

[@kaitindall3272]

He shows off a graphical file manager at 5:12 and also mentions running Firefox. It's not just a full screen console environment

[@___xyz___]

@@kaitindall3272 Yes, not having a window manager means having a full screen environment. That's what "window" means.

[@horrorspirit]

I personally don't really like tilling window managers because they make me feel claustrophobic for some reason

[@PsycosisIncarnated]

46 MB RAM REEEEEEEEEEEEE K fine I'm sold. Gentoo or arch and i3 for my thinkpad it is.

[@jkr9594]

while i really do love to see these "black magic f*ckery" type Linux things, such as these low ram usage numbers, please, at the beginning, just shortly mention that these videos are not for beginner users, and are not required, because stuff like this has scared me away from Linux for quite a while. (btw. i have made the jump to arch with KDE and Bismuth for tiling a few month ago.)

[@tostadorafuriosa69]

I understand the benefits of using a twm, i have tried them but it feels weird to me. I prefer a DE even if it comes with bloat. But i respect your opinion

[@bhavyakukkar]

have you tried floating window managers?

[@tostadorafuriosa69]

@@bhavyakukkar nope

[@bhavyakukkar]

​@@tostadorafuriosa69 most TWMs today have controls to make windows floating (can't speak for all but dwm, the lightest TWM, has it out of the box soo); and DEs at their most skeletal are just floating WMs with a panel bar, so instead of using DEs that package out their panels as standalone apps (XFCE: xfce4-panel, LXDE: lxpanel, LXQT: lxqt-panel), you could use a tiling (or just floating if you do not intend to use tiling) WM configured to use those respective panels at startup instead of the one that WM does (or doesn't) ship, and avoid the "bloat". there are many tutorials available on how to, depending on the popularity of the WMxPanel combination you decide on. if this sounds interesting to you, the xfce4-panel patch for dwm might be a great place to start! unfortunately it seems like the panels of kde plasma & gnome can not work separately from their shells :(

[@SeniorMoe]

7:57 if you arrange the windows like that in DE, you probably destroy your RAM before even programming. XD

[@Faunarr]

I don't use a tiling window manager is because I like having windows overlapp

[@abstractapproach634]

DWM FTW

[@caleb22lr]

I use dwm btw

[@premier69]

worrying about ram seems like such a meh point, even on phones these days. the xiaomi mi max 3 phone is cheap and has 6 gigs of ram, feels like ram isnt much of an issue these days.

[@MentalOutlaw]

i wouldn't say im so worried about ram, but i do alot of virtualization and often run multiple virtual machines. So i prefer to use a very minimal amount of ram so i can deploy multiple machines without having to use swap.

[@premier69]

@s 1291 cool, but with the 2 comments you replied to, how?

[@almasabdrazak5089]

@@SO-dl2pv it is called gnu licence

[@ivanf.8489]

@@SO-dl2pv I don't really get your point. What similitudes can have the amount of ram consumed with the existence of something superior to us?

[@tankermottind]

@@SO-dl2pv Hardcore Linux users cosplay the fantasy of being a 1980s computer sysadmin/programmer (there was not really a clear distinction at the time, you had to know how to code to use a computer with competency) who has respect and autonomy at work because of their command of the black sorcery of minicomputers and Unix workstations. The good ones understand that it's a fun hobby and a challenge. The horrible ones seethe with resentment that computer work in TYOOL 2020 is mostly sitting in cubicle using Microsoft Office, and their skills at manipulating esoteric software are either useless, or make them more of a problem for employers than an asset. They devote their energies to telling the entire world that they're using computers wrong, and the world gets its work done without them. I've considered trying i3 myself, because I'm learning to use an orthodox file manager to better administer my DOS retro machine, and I love the idea of trying to use a command-line OFM as the centerpiece of a window manager- and terminal-based interface--an "orthodox desktop environment" if you will. However, I certainly won't be concerned with "bloat" because such a thing just isn't a big deal now. Minimalists whine about system requirements expanding to fill all available resources, but that is *not* true. I can have dozens of programs and hundreds of Firefox tabs open before my computer (16GB RAM, which isn't even that much for a desktop gaming machine) has any discernible paging whatsoever. In the '90s--and I used Windows in the '90s so I know whereof I speak--you constantly bumped into memory limitations, and had to always be aware of what programs you were running and the icons on the system tray, and the memory consumption of those things. Now I look down and think "I have HOW many windows open?!" and every one of them responds instantly. Memory management in 2020 is a pissing contest.