Destiny 2 Lore - Deterministic Chaos, the mystery of Lightfall's Veil and a whispered secret

[@MynameisByf]

For those that missed the text I added in at the time, I learned late that you can also use Delicate tomb and Nezarec’s Whisper if you’re not playing warlock.

[@brutality5683]

Byf, I have a question that I can’t seem to find anywhere. So the Traveler in the beginning cutscene, where the it shot the light beam, it created the plant life structures with the roots. When a disciple of the Witness meets death (Rhulk and Calus) they form a similar root/plant life structure around them. What do you think of this? Is it possibly another connection with the light and dark…? or am I just overthinking

[@MikeE_wf]

Can confirm the glaive worked. Great quest. Big hype

[@SuperGraveman]

the part when you get the gun had me lost and running in circules with a way pointer going up and no way to tell how, i had to climb with strand on the blank wall on the back

[@craigwatson9139]

Where Rohan used to stand theres a radio. One of the news broadcasts says how the people of Neptune were having nightmares and they all heard the name of nezarec in the nightmare

[@konchuzthawt]

Hmmm.... I thought the entire lore on the Deterministic Chaos was from the perspective of Nezarec. It was almost like he was taking notes of what Rohan was doing as he watched via the network. The brackets were him actually whispering to Rohan or possibly even to us by way of the gun? 🤔

[@Forcer69]

When the Community needed him most, he came to give us answers

[@theshow0024]

For real lol

[@BaDNeWsPaNdA1]

Always has.

[@dbcoopervidmaster]

hes called the lore daddy for a reason

[@OrificeHorus]

Not about the Veil tho

[@riendanuevageneracion]

He’s a real warlock!!

[@MegaMo93]

SPOILERS For anyone who’s not a warlock but still wants to hear the dialogue byf mentioned at the beginning of the video, you can do so by using the Nezarec Glaive! Hope this helps

[@Noto.]

I figured though I as a Warlock main had Nezarec's Sin on and figured it'd be cool. If Nezarec's Whisper works, does Delicate Tomb also work?

[@Noto.]

Nvm just saw it lol

[@user-wo5dm8ci1g]

Thanks, I already did my Warlock playthrough, and would love to hear the whispers.

[@corinthiansdaniels3728]

Thank you I was about to say that

[@XAL]

I played on hunter without any nezarec gear and was able to get all of that dialogue.

[@dumbsterdives]

This quest kinda gives me the impression just based off what the goal is that the residents of Neomuna don't understand the Veil any better than we do, kinda comparable to how we've always been with the Traveler, being able to benefit from it but not actually knowing anything about it. The writing just... failed to convey this with how casually Rohan and Nimbus talked about it.

[@byranwitherspoon5369]

I agree

[@TheDessum]

yeah it's almost like someone should have waited more than 24 hours before fucking roasting a dev team they're not a part of

[@current3109]

@@TheDessumstill a bad story

[@TheDessum]

@@current3109 Byf is still an ass

[@freyir5598]

@@TheDessum Then what are you doing in his content?

[@wolfrosefrost5475]

An important thing to note, in the 'Terminal Overload' public event one of Nezarac's dialogue mentions how the Psions once worshiped him. Another thing is that the bracket portion of 'Deterministic Chaos' mentions a 'WE" that they are not cut off from each other unlike the sol divisive who a disconnected from the rest of the vex. If we take this into consideration, Nezerac may have an ancient psion companion who was able to join him in having incorporeal immortality. Additionally, Nezerac may have connection to the original OXA machine due to these facts. Edit: Another thing that I thought on during Lightfall's launch is that the tormenters bear an odd resemblance to Psions. Considering some of the tormentors bear Nezerac's name, they could have been Psions originally that were turned into tormentors similar to how Rhulk created the Caretaker.

[@hey_its_travis]

Witness did say they wouldn't be possible without calus cloning tech.

[@Maximumdadgaming]

did you notice when inside the Ishtar command center before you fight Calus, the veil had a room with a bunch of like chairs that were observing the veil? I thought that was very interesting, what were those chairs? very obviously related to what the Veil is I think.

[@kamen.rider.decade]

12:20 "but if the veil IS alive and is capable of personhood" ...then by Destiny rules, we can turn the Veil into a gun.

[@xxix6567]

that would be so hype

[@vancouver9672]

my friend, you have your priorities rights

[@DarleyQuinn]

Black Heart is the failed Veil attempt. "Your pale heart holds the key." Veil is the heart of the traveler. Thats why it can link to him, via ghosts even. Im sure traveler died at the end of Lightfall, but with it's heart alive we still have our Light powers.

[@equestrianmidnight5619]

It’s not dead. You can’t kill the Traveler.

[@CaramelThe3rd]

by that theory, I'd have to assume that since nezarec has access to the vex system/ lives within it and has access to the neomuna systems, he must have access to the veil (assuming it's still there, the campaign didn't give much on what happened to it afterwards, tbh it didn't give much in general) regardless, that's pretty bad news, and since nezarec is after the veil and the veil is our source of power (again, given that the traveler is ded), and assuming your theory is correct) since nezarec poses a threat to the veil, we might have to face him and/or his forces, most probably in the raid now that being said my speculation for the raid is : 1) it's gonna be a primarily taken raid, maybe taken/vex together 2)it's gonna be primarily in a vex domain since they are working on making veil 2.0 or in a nezarec-y domain since the raid teases show some architecture that just gives me disciple/darkness vibes 3) there will be a sparrow section, considering there's a hidden sparrow in collections (which normally means raid stuff) 4) nezarec will be heavily involved if not the main boss 5) not really speculation but the exotic will be a kinetic/stasis/Strand weapon sorry for the word vomit, i just really wanted to speak about my thoughts on this, your theory is pretty solid, it makes too much sense

[@sapah8945]

how come we lost our light powers at the red war then?

[@vultionsin3028]

@@CaramelThe3rd main boss is confirmed to be nezarec we ressurect and fight them on the witnesses terraformed pyramid. Secondary boss is a sion will spheres orbiting it. It will be cabal and taken as the enemies.

[@Brannon1009]

How did it get there

[@hectorbeck4350]

I gotta say, regardless of the main campaign’s narrative missteps, this other lore stuff is genuinely really intriguing. Also, respect for the professionalism, Byf

[@hectorbeck4350]

@@xvx_k1r1t0_xvxkillme7 I agree, it was certainly justified, but it's better to present criticisms in a more composed manner, it's more constructive that way

[@khonsux5240]

@@hectorbeck4350 It was pretty professional. Narratively they failed, and this was a let down. I’m worried about future content. I was already worried, which is why I didn’t buy the $100 version. I’ll do it non professionally for ya. Lightfall’s narrative and story was trash 🗑️, better yet, sewage waste. And I won’t apologize because Bungie doesn’t have my jewels in a grip.

[@GTSW1FT]

Hopefully the raid unlocks more content.

[@NeoRaidenn]

I love how everyone learned the word “Narrative” in destiny universe a dlc before Lightfall and all of a sudden everyone is an expert in Narrative driven stories. Y’all are whack as fuck

[@darkdaddydirty2504]

I’m confused at the apology. Bungie purposely released a subpar campaign knowing full well that it was cut from final shape but still charged more than past expansion.

[@DoesNotExist232]

ya know what byf, you don't need to apologize, while your tone wasn't filtered through professionalism it was incredibly genuine and shows a passion for this series rarely seen. I truly do appreciate your candid thoughts.

[@rorcaptain]

Learning about these whispers genuinely reignited my interest after the Lightfall campaign.

[@lucascassol2995]

Let’s take a moment to appreciate the professionalism on display here. Even though I’m pretty sure no one would call him out for his passion in yesterdays video, it take a big man to self reflect and offer an apology. I’ve seen people say a lot less for doing much worse, lore daddy continues to earn my subscription

[@iponce2]

I agree, its a good character trait of his and its worthy of commendation. One might call it egotistical of him to think anyone on Bungie's writer team is actually watching, but I still think it shows a good level of self awareness. I also don't think its that implausible a bungie employee might see his stuff.

[@lucascassol2995]

@@iponce2 I mean Myelin contracted for Bungie right? They could very well catch every video! Glad to see you agree with me friend!

[@Fatikis42]

I respect him less for it. Lightfall was a cash grab. This was originally 3 expansions for a reason. There wasn't enough content for 4. They cut Strand from WQ and what will be The Final Shape. They knew that The Final Shape would not be ready. They'd already cut a subclass from WQ. They were trying to throw it in for some quick money. That is why 90% of this is Strand training. That is all that they had. When a company behaves in such an anti-consumer way they need voices raised in opposition. Not polite friendly advice. They are not your friends. They are a corporation that made a choice to release a bad subpar product.

[@lucascassol2995]

@@Fatikis42 hey fair enough man, I hear ya on this. That said I think there’s something to respecting people and reflecting our tone and actions and whether or not it’s productive to be hostile towards normal people.

[@Captain-Panda]

He had zero reason to apologize. Bungie needed to hear it, and frankly, they deserve the ire he displayed.

[@christiand5954]

Nothing like a little byf to keep us through these trying times. Also what did you think of the strike where nezarec spoke? That was probably my favourite part of the campaign.

[@JesperVille]

That’s what confirmed to me that the raid name, coupled with the strike dialogue, is absolutely going to be against the resurrection of or against the consciousness made manifest of Nezarec, can’t wait to see what he looks like

[@shshyie]

Speaks more if you're wearing the Sin or have Nez' Whisper equipped as well

[@icicle_ai]

felt out of place

[@pugwash1]

well there is more during either terminal override or just exploring neomuna you will hear whispers and if you have either nezare's sin or his glave you will hear nezarec

[@MynameisByf]

Agreed!

[@fishnutz5196]

Interesting theory i have on the Tormentors. We know Calus has cloning tech and i think the Tormentors are the result of that cloning tech along with Nezarec's DNA. The tormentors all weild sythes, the sythe and the nightmares shared a roll in Haunted, they also all weild void which Nezarec has an affinity too and also we see some tormentors named "Imprint of Nezarec"

[@RyuArubireo]

Byf: *Makes a video talking about the confusing aspects of Lightfall's story, leading to a bit of a sour take, which in hindsight, can be justified, while keeping it professional" Also Byf: *Apologizes to the story writers before the community even points that out, all of this while keeping a professional form* And people wonder why you're my favorite lore youtuber. Not just in Destiny, you're my favorite Lore KZbinr overall.

[@iNotsuoh]

agree

[@brianwingel2570]

Does anybody actually care that he’s your favorite KZbinr? With how small he is and how small destiny is I doubt most people know or care who he is let alone that he’s your favorite KZbinr. 😢 imagine trying to act cooler than you are

[@cry1pticzer773]

@@brianwingel2570 damn, you must be fun universally. No one really cares if he is his favorite lore KZbinr, but it shows that he is a good person, and acknowledges mistakes before even being nagged by the community with guns raised to his head.

[@currentlyballin5983]

@@brianwingel2570this is the most unnecessary comment. Let a man speak

[@Brannon1009]

No one wonders. He’s the lore daddy.

[@The10thX]

I just thought of something, if the Veil has the ability to turn the immaterial to material, maybe the reason Nezarec seeks it is to regain his body that he lost during the collapse, or that he only exist as an immaterial being right now?

[@kais295]

In the strike he says he needs more power. The there's so much potential in between the worlds

[@amazingcmanps4gamer941]

Actually makes sense. Perhaps he is like Darth Nihilus. More of a spirit possessing his armor and lacks an actual physical form.

[@go2nrg]

Hopefully more comes out about the Veil.

[@davida1229]

Let’s hope for the raid. VoD gave us many things, the Worm God, Rhulk, the Disciples, more about the Witness and Savathun etc. This will definitely tell us more about Nezarec but who knows, maybe the Veil will be there as well.

[@sacr3dv0id]

Hopefully he can find stuff about it if it exists ☠️☠️

[@chillboi2167]

The strand sidearm quest is.locked till after the raid so that might give some insight, not to mention the seasonal story

[@cyd_hunter99]

If not the Veil, then at least anything surrounding it. I'm okay with vague maguffins, we just have too many at once right now. SOMETHING needs to be made clear.

[@andrewyachovitz6749]

My theory is the veil is the travelers pale heart, cuz the witness does say “your pale heart holds the key”

[@ItzOli]

There was mention of an hourglass figure in Rohan's notes. The Witness forms an hourglass shape with their dark triangular base and light triangular head-cloud. It seemed like a more prominent shape/form they wanted to show in the opening and closing cinematics

[@peteraustin9057]

Also, the conflux you have to defend with strand in mama's retreat has a sideways hourglass symbol on top of it

[@HauntedAnimations]

Hey Byf, if you have the Nezarac glaive or helmet there are a few extra whispers you can understand, specifically in one of the lost sectors

[@SALEENS7GTR5]

Myelin has a video on this

[@ac4th371]

Secret dialogue while equipping certain items is such a nice touch - Makes me wander what other secrets there are.

[@rod99ttett90]

During the campaign you can interact with the radio and the reporter says that many civilians are having dreams about Nezerek.

[@salamanda550]

Not gonna lie, when I heard the "Hourglass and a Garden" bit in this quest, I got chills. I love the Black Garden and I'm so happy it got used again. Also mad I didn't do it on my Lock with the Sin on, since I swapped to a Nothing Manacles build at the end of last season XD

[@edwardcastleberry2806]

Ahhh the Vaati Vidya of Destiny 2 back at it again saving Destiny's Lore from its self

[@linkenski]

In a 2015 interview Jason Jones was asked about what possible answers there could be to the Traveler. He said "It's the mystery box of the universe. If you answer that, then it's over." I have a strong feeling that they're planting seeds such as "The Veil" to preface a new saga mystery-box just in time that when they soon answer what the Traveler and the Darkness truly is, there will still be reasons to ponder and speculate on everything else in Destiny's universe.

[@chillylagarto7728]

This is quest line was and is the best evidence that Nimbus could be a more interesting character than just comedic relief. I really hope that we see more of this sort of Character development.

[@jordanread5829]

Due to the Black Heart being an attempt to replicate the Veil. It leads me to assume that the Veil is the 'Pale Heart' The Witness mentioned at the end of Witch Queen. Pale Heart, Black Heart etc. Would also explain why there hasn't been an attempt to remake the Black Heart since Oryx invaded Sol. Because Ghaul unintentionally caused the traveler to stop playing dead. Since The Witness was led to believe it was dead thanks to Savathun (according to Parasite). Plus it was fairly obvious that the Veil is the 'Pale Heart' The Witness was referring to. As it said that the Pale Heart is the Key to usher in the final shape. And the Veil was exactly that. The key to usher in the Final Shape.

[@yamz1156]

Yeah but what about the visions that the traveler gave the Witness? We still haven’t seen the white thing from the visions and that seems to be the pale heart, not the veil🤔 the veil was just another step

[@GazingTrandoshan]

The post quest was really good, also respect for the apology,also crazy how the glaive/Naz related equipment adds a ton of lore

[@Max-ws7we]

The Exotic Glave quest has some interesting stuff too, it mentions Titan

[@GazingTrandoshan]

I feel like the story is gonna be way better with the seasons

[@nieralyte6531]

no need to apologize Byf, your frustration is totally understandable

[@___._]

Let's not forget that the lore is not just for Warlocks. Nezarec's Sin is incidental, anyone can use Nezarec's Whisper (the glaive) to do the same!

[@willhardy9731]

Or the exotic fusion from the pirate season

[@turkizno]

It feels crap though that if you didn't know to put on the armor or weapon, basically half of the community missed their chance at discovering this themselves. This is one of those parts where they could have at least given us a proper hint about the matter, so now everyone has to actually find the guides or lore people to know this crucial note from Nezarec.

[@darmorel549]

@@turkizno worse part is that a lot of the mission isnt repayable. So like, even if you switch to an item the works haft-way through, you already miss some dialog. For me I already got the mission done when I discover this exists.

[@theGentlemanCaller73]

No need to apologize, Lore Daddy. The frustration was justified!

[@thesilliestgoose5990]

I know things are tough right now but I have faith in you Byf. Go easy on yourself 💕

[@Banana-senpai]

I think your tone in the previous video was fine. It was not inflammatory,.you gave your honest opinion and it was heartfelt. Don't get guilt tripped please

[@iNotsuoh]

The coolest part about Rohan, and what made his moment in the game special to me, was realizing that he was at the end of his 10 years, and I have been a guardian for 10 years now. it could have easily been us in his shoes. it made him feel like a mirror image of ourselves.

[@zeropercentprogress]

The thing I love about the Cloudstriders is they're not nearly as short lived as it initially seems. Compared to immortality as a lightbearer or the neomunians in cryo sure it's short, but 10 years for them is 1650 years for us. They basically never left the golden age and for them it's probably only been around a decade since the collapse.

[@joshuaroman6479]

@@zeropercentprogress is this stated in the lore somewhere? I always had the impression that it was 10 years according to an earth-year.

[@zeropercentprogress]

@@joshuaroman6479 well I stand corrected, Bungie's take on it is "a year is a year" so they have their own little slice of universal time no matter the planet. I'm dead wrong apparently and I'll own that.

[@lillithfenris4636]

@@zeropercentprogress Ah where you went wrong champ is you use science and logic for Destint not your fault ;D

[@TheAcidicMolotov]

Love the copium for the game that provides a replacement for real life

[@thursdaygirl_]

doing this mission as a D1 vet made me teary eyed tbh, and reading the lore tab broke my mind in the best way. really hope they keep pulling on that Sol Divisive story thread come Final Shape

[@SeraphRakov]

The "World you like to dance?" question is the last thing a Maya Sundaresh simulation says before their grand escape in the Irrealis lorebook. "Tightrope walking" is mentioned twice in the same series of lorebooks (once in Deontic and again in Volitive). The connection Neomuna has had with the Ishtar Collective was clear enough already with Maya's Retreat and the recovered data of hers later. (I'm foggy on the exact words said, but I believe it said she was a Founder?). I think it's far more likely the bracketed perspective is not Nezarec, but instead the simulated Ishtar crew (or Praedyth, but I'm not that hopeful). The final lines of the Irrealis lore book: "One Praedyth, waiting for the conductor's baton to drop. Uncountable Vex in the Garden, waiting for the same event, a synchrony none of them notice. Somewhere, a veil is always lifting. Somewhere, Kabr is always dooming himself. Somewhere, a door is always opening. Somewhere, they are always stepping through."

[@n0denz]

One of the ads I got was for a bug killer called "Zevo". "People friendly, bug deadly." What an odd god this algorithm is.

[@supertrashdragon2857]

This lore gives me the idea that we're not meant to understand the Veil yet (at the time of finishing the campaign), these stories after the campaign are our "research" into what exactly it is and Nezarec is another catalyst for helping us understand what it is, because he almost definitely does know, being a Disciple or ex-Disciple of the Witness. I just think the dialogues were maybe mishandled in the campaign and the idea was given off that everyone but us knows what it is, because now they clearly don't know what it is at all. That's my personal take on how Bungie wanted this story to make narrative sense, and I'd say it fits kinda well? I do enjoy the idea of us as Guardians being left in the dark and feeling so small in the grand scheme of things when before such beings as The Witness, The Traveler, and now Nezarec, and now we need to unravel this greater picture ourselves over time.

[@cryw1092]

That was precisely what they were going for, which went over a lot for people's heads.

[@supergold9390]

its pretty obvious that they didnt "fail" to give us answers. They deliberately chose not to give us answers. Its up for debate whether this was a good decision. But I wouldn't call it a narrative failure until we actually see the pay off. I think people say its bad because they are asking for something different. But something not being what you wanted doesn't make it bad. Much of the vitriol is overblown imo. I also tend to enjoy things for what they are rather than hoping they be what I want them to be.

[@re11ek]

Do not apologize for your apt and reasonable video. You were on point and sharing your genuine emotion that a *story* made you feel is not unprofessional.

[@papapanders488]

This man single handedly dropped the best youtuber apology in the first 5 minutes than most youtubers can do in an entire hour long video

[@rush4g]

Because what he is apologizing for isn't an issue. It's easy for people to accept an apology when there's nothing to apologize for.

[@Fearfulodds]

The apology was needless. He was right, and you don't have to be happy sounding when they are wrong.

[@papapanders488]

@@rush4g oh I know, but the way he spoke, the formality, genuine tones etc. He just meant it and you could feel it

[@Bazzabazeman]

Probably because it's one of the few that's actually sincere, and not due to pressure and expecatations of their audience like when a youtuber drops another stupid crypto scam. Our loremasters are some of the realest.

[@allmyself666]

Your reaction to the narrative team is a hell of a lot nicer than what mine would have been.

[@belliebun4529]

Appropriately, you can achieve the same effect with the Nezarec’s Whisper glaive.

[@dudesalotofstuff]

Considering the context, perhaps The Black Heart of the Garden is the copy of The Veil. If I remember correctly, it was attempting to drain the Traveler in The vanilla D1 campaign. If that was a facsimile, then perhaps the original can also drain the light of the Traveler and is a key component of the prophecy about The Witness "drinking" the light.

[@RadioDemon-on1rx]

Little theory, based on the information you’ve brought up, the Veil is something that the Vex of the black garden have enough knowledge of to attempt to replicate, Nezerac refers to it like a person, and Savathun is the reason it’s on Neptune. What is the reason Strand could only be found on Neptune is because the veil is whatever embodies the Darkness, we were told that’s what we destroyed in the D1 campaign but what if that was another Vex recreation and the reason Savathun hid it was similar to us with the Traveler, if the Witness can’t reach out to it he isn’t as powerful?

[@numanumatard]

Kinda reminds me the veils on the darkness statues

[@knickiicht]

Interesting theory. So what ur saying is that the veil could be the travelers twin/opposite?

[@flashback4019]

Doubt it. It’s been noted that darkness feels completely different than the light, as ghost states “it feels wrong”. Ghost said the veil feels similar to the traveler

[@Arctix]

I love your content Byf, and as someone who's been in Content Creation for 14 years come March 7th, have been fortunate enough to be part of your incredible journey, but don't for a second back peddle on the comments from the previous video towards the Narrative Team. What you said, while yes, less filtered due to the rush of emotions Day 1 content typically brings, was as accurate and on point as possible, and they 100% deserve the criticism. We're at a point where the MMO genre itself is more stagnant then ever, and many folks are looking for something to fall in love with---and as such the Lightfall release had a LOT of eyes on it now, that it may not have when Final Shape is released (which can be when other anticipated MMOs come out, Ashes of Creation to name an example). This entire expansion feels like Seasonal content, because they took a simple cutscene, cut it in half, and filled the middle. There are loose ends everywhere, plot gaps where there shouldn't be plot gaps, and worst of all, intentional content stiffeling / breadcrumbing. Things that you absolutely know should have been included in the original campaign, yet were intentionally attached to exotic items for the sake of "stretching" out the limited narrative Lightfall provides...and don't get me started on exotics, as the few that were released, and the manor of which they've been released at this stage of the game, unbelievable. Meanwhile a plethora of QoL issues plague the game into oblivion--some that are YEARS old. Sony dumped 3 BILLION into Bungie, and this is the first major content piece that reflects that influx of change. Ask yourself, and this goes for anyone, is what we received that which a company with such stature should provide? Absolutely not, so I'd say that you're right on the money, and they SHOULD be disappointed with themselves for such lazy piecemealing. Now, don't get me wrong, I absolutely love this game, and I love what Bungie once stood for. I love the type of content they are known for producing, and I'll be honest, I had so much hope for Lightfall too. Transparently, I'm someone who wants to work with Bungie in the future as I too have fallen in love with this franchise to an unhealthy degree, but part of that love is also being honest with what I'm experiencing...and if by virtue of being honest I inadvertently shoot myself in the foot according to them, then it was never meant to be. Far too often to people who are fans hold their tongues when stuff like this happens because of that love for the product, and that's why this type of thing continues to happen. It's OKAY to fail in order to succeed, and this is that for this team...and they should know it. I think if anything, it defines you for simply being honest about the passion that you have for this franchise. They absolutely can and need to do better. Plain and simple.

[@danconti5984]

It’s interesting, the connection to Nezarec. If you wander around Neomuna, the news will report people are killing each other in cryostasis, apparently after suffering nightmares.

[@mnil0231]

I haven't watched the full video yet, but I just want to say how refreshing it is to hear such an articulate and well-done apology. It was sincere and considerate without needing to go into the dramatics and theatrical displays of overwrought emotion that seem so common in any KZbin apologies these days.

[@ryanmaxwell7816]

Also if interested, the Sparrow in the Season Pass (I think) with the lore tab about 2 kids talking to each other via radio contains a morse code message of "Still alive, inside network, idiot kids" which to me suggests it is Nezerac. Possibly during the collapse his mind was separated from his body and was trapped within the Vex network which would tie in with the theory he's going to be the raid boss.

[@scrawnyclownsnatch9656]

Personally, I felt your tone in the last video was fine and accurate.

[@oiBliz]

When I saw the veil was this massive pink flower muffin I was super disappointed. Been picturing a ginormous shapeshifting darkness statue for too damn long..

[@tonyortiz4513]

Don’t apologize!! For goodness sake! First real commentary I’ve heard in a very long time. Quite possibly your best video, and I love them all…you were real. Don’t apologize!!

[@brucewilliamson5295]

I hope they answer questions that we have with the raid, and thanks for all the lore Byf! You rock

[@WhoisPersona]

Lightfall is amazing, the final mission fighting alongside Caiatl and her Cabal in a massive cinematic battle was something that I wanted for the longest time. I know that a lot of people including myself are frustrated with other aspects if Lightfall, but I also think we are judging perhaps a little too early as no doubt there may be more content on Neomuna to come, escoially after the raid.

[@iamoctonate]

We aren't judging early though. The last time the raid actually mattered to the world was Last Wish. But I doubt that's the case here. Bungie was short dev time and weren't going to finish Lightfall. They cut half of it and announced Final Shape. Extra money and they get to release something this year

[@davida1229]

@@iamoctonate Vow didn’t change the Throne World but damn it added A LOT of lore, like, a lot, some of it absolutely crucial to TWQ. So it’s not insane to think that this Raid will maybe add more about the mysteries of this dlc. Doesn’t mean it will happen 100% of course…

[@BrainWasherAttendent]

@@iamoctonate the raids always add something to the game. Vow of the disciple was really important to the lead up to lightfall. In the grand scheme of things the overall story won’t suffer too much from the somewhat lackluster execution of the story.

[@Nonov685]

BYF, no need to apologize. YES, your criticism of Bungies handling of the story WAS PROFESSIONAL!, If you want Bungie to improve, you don't pat them on the back and say good job on NOT improving the quality of your story for every expansion! Tell them what needs fixing and hold them accountable for it until they fix it!

[@Nonov685]

I mean what's the point, its been years BYF - I think at this point BYF wont do this coz he makes more youtube money by not being critical/ honest :(

[@Jpow5734]

He’s just a nice guy I think he feels bad for all the people at bungie who put in a lot of effort into this dlc and really thought people were going to like it, he also knows a lot of the narrative team personally so he probably also didn’t want them to beat themselves up over it even though he has a right to be angry.

[@Nonov685]

@@Jpow5734 I understand bro, it just that its been years. they have been doing this for years! BYF needs changes his method to get different results.

[@Nonov685]

Also side note - after all these years, they should have BYFs lore videos implemented into the game as lore caches for players to watch. But we both know they wont do that, Bungie puts their finances in season passes, not lore.

[@ScarletSilverIron]

Wow that was fast. Hope you aren't overworking yourself.

[@gregvfx1]

Your tone was fine. Lightfall is a tutorial DLC for Strand. I dread going back in to get strand, it's so tedious. Every mission is a TUTORIAL mission, no real contemt

[@rodrigoandrade5601]

sorry for what Byf? Bungie needs to hear what you/we truly believe. This was the time to slap their hands before the final shape.

[@jbradratel2103]

You shouldn't apologize for the video, it was spot on and you were kind. Being angry isn't wrong if you honestly treat people well, and you did that.

[@ketpia]

Soooo, I don't think the voice in Deterministic Chaos is Nezarec, instead I think it's the same voice that spoke to us in "Unveiling," or to Oryx in "Majestic. Majestic." I think it might be the thing that calls itself The Winnower. And I think it's talking to The Gardener. The way it references Schrödinger makes me think of how in "Unveiling," that entity talks about human philosophers (specifically Jakob Böhme, the "shoemaker" it mentions). Then, Unveiling uses the same casual language as "Majestic. Majestic.," and the voice there even refers to Oryx as "my man" which is a lot like how it talks to him in MM ("Oryx, my king, my friend.") This also means that I REALLY don't think that The Witness is The Winnower. The Witness uses the royal We, and always speaks with a sort of proper tone. This other voice uses the singular "I" and talks more casually. Those are such specific differences in behavior and speaking patterns, I really can't imagine that the Witness and the thing that wrote Unveiling or MM are the same entity. At least that's my two cents!

[@julianlak1017]

I think you’re right. Good post.

[@julianlak1017]

The Rohan side is simultaneously his early mid and late career. The other perspective is what you said the winnower talking to the Gardner and both end with the uncertain “I don’t know” Incredible lore tab.

[@chief1533]

The little touch with the nezerac items is a great touch 👌🏾 100% think nezzy is going be the raid boss. Especially with the raid name and considering that his power was the reason for the nightmares on the moon.

[@dembro27]

I'm still looking forward to what will be revealed this year, even if the campaign was a bit frustrating and unsatisfying. This Exotic quest helped put the focus back on that for me. Also, while the theory that the Taken were sent by Nezarec does make sense, it might not explain why they stop attacking once the Mind is destroyed. Osiris assumes it's because they were ordered to destroy the Mind, not recover its knowledge. But if Nezarec sent them, and he sought that knowledge, they should've killed us and taken the memory core. I hope we don't need to access the VexNet to decipher the core. I feel like any information on there is currently, or will soon be, accessible by Nezarec as he corrupts it.

[@darmorel549]

I feel like Nexarec just needed it out of the hands of the Vex (and therefor the witness). Our guardian probably less convenient then a taken, but it still works. Pr it might even work better depending on what Nexarec want with the data.

[@Johnston212]

I'm going to have to come back to this video at some point. Just wanted to say that I appreciate your great lore videos and I am glad that I have at least one way to see this through to the end.

[@XAN.]

Here to get my lightfall campaign story from the REAL source of lore

[@XAN.]

Bless you lore daddy

[@qbkelly33]

I wouldn’t even apologize for your video, I agree with everything you said and Bungie listens to people like you. Keep doing your thing

[@HowardVangorder]

Honestly i think the Veil is just that a veil something separating things from each other and when its "lifted" for a lack of better words it stops serving as a veil separating things and starts acting as a door between things that are being kept separate

[@ambassador8524]

as a listener of your channel for 5 years, I stand by what you said.

[@imrunningoutofnames2413]

So i have a theory, so I was thinking about light falls ending and I remembered when ghost said that the veil felt like the traveler but that was never explained. But I don't think it has to be. in prophecy the nine basically said the light and dark were the same. So if we take that literal then that would mean that the veil could be the winnower (or what we presume to be him like how we think the traveler is the gardener). Remember those leaks that came out a while ago? The leaks that predicted a lot of shit notably witch queen and most the stuff he said was true. He also said that the veil was the true name of the darkness and the enemy race we would be fighting one day. What if he's still right. If the veil is the true name of the darkness back then, maybe it's still the true name of the darkness now. Remember the nine said that light and dark are the same thing, so maybe at one point there was no light or dark. so that could mean that the powers went into different directions kind of like an evolution. This is the part where we need to drop the names that humanity calls these. There is no light and there is no dark there both the same. The gardener and the winnower had the exact same power but used it differently. The gardener used this power in more of a physical way while the winnower used it in a phycological way. In one of the descriptions for a quest step for a stasis fragment a guardian described being in a crystal he said it's not even cold but he just feels empty like in a emotional way. That's why it's so hard for our guardian to learn how to use darkness powers, because we aren't mentally strong enough at first. Also when we see the veil it looks like a portal or something out of a different dimension entirely. Let's go back a step. If light is physical and dark is mental, then maybe that means the traveler takes the shape of a physical thing that's easy to comprehend but the winnower takes the shape of somthing abstract or something that's made of pure thought or something that dosent reslly exist. If this sounds stupid then let me ask you a stupid question. What shape is the traveler and describe to yourself what it looks like. Simple right, now what shape is the veil and describe what it looks like that part is complicated isn't it? Pretty much the complete opposite of the traveler in terms of description. Sorry that it was so long I didt know how to shorten it but I hope you guys can discuss some things with me I have some points that I could alter or completely change but then we would be here forever.

[@esketispaghetti3257]

This is an excellent theory, i have two more things to point out. First, remember how the cloudark is said to be connected to the veil some how. And what was in the cloudark, the minds of the neomuni. This would also explain their stories about the web of the universe, of course they would know of it's existence. Another thing, remember how ghost says that the radial mast had light energy. This supports the idea that the veil is the darkness. How else would you be able to harness dark energy than to use light.

[@imrunningoutofnames2413]

@@esketispaghetti3257 yes I thought about the first point you made when I was writing this but I didt know whether the veil was connected to the cloud ark or not

[@undead0rbit53]

this is all good stuff, but everytime you say maybe, i cant help but feel we shouldnt be saying "maybe" anymore, this was lightfall, this was the eve of the final sequence of the light and dark saga, this was the time to stop wondering and actually get answers.

[@imrunningoutofnames2413]

@@undead0rbit53 but there are so many different answers and we have so little to go on that anything we say is only a “maybe”

[@bangel9225]

I don’t think he meant you specifically. I think he’s referring to the fact that we shouldn’t have to speculate on any of this. We should KNOW what the answers are. This is the second to last chapter of the series of the book and we are still getting questions not answers

[@Juwce_86]

Byf never, ever feel the need to apologise to us as the viewer. You have passion and you were pissed. Everyone is pissed. You did good mate. You were much more grounded than most and your points were valid and worth while to hear.

[@Dougiebfresh12100]

You vented frustrations we all felt, and still offered a heartfelt apology. You are an incredible content creator and a good man, Lore Daddy.

[@Fearfulodds]

Why did he have to apologize?

[@Dougiebfresh12100]

@@Fearfulodds he didn’t have to at all. But the fact that he did is admirable and respectable.

[@marko0os_]

​@@Fearfuloddshe had no reason to he's just a nice guy and felt bad that he came off so harshly

[@JagHat]

Yesterday’s critique was well restrained and respectful enough.

[@T3hVandal]

Honestly byf I don't think you were out of line at all. Loved the 24hrs in video and thought you were absolutely right.

[@Tundemc]

Hi Byf, I have always respected you as a content creator. I have always been impressed by your attention to detail, your delivery and just the overall way you present your thoughts. My respect for you has grown since hearing your apology. It felt genuine and honest, but most of all, it felt professional. Keep up the good work!

[@blumagikdragon3078]

Hey Byf don't be too critical of yourself.. I myself and many other Destiny vets where thinking the same things you laid out in yesterday's video. Thank you for putting these thoughts together in a way that hopefully gets Bungie attention. That video was needed and we needed you to make it! Thank you!

[@doctorstrangepants6706]

I REALLY enjoyed the evocative prose of Rohan's part of The Deterministic Chaos description.

[@reversed_terry3868]

It is frustrating when everyone looks to you for answers on lore and even you get left in the darkness

[@Mystic-nw3ew]

Byf in a Darkness Zone (real) (no revives)

[@Loderyod]

@@Mystic-nw3ew _🤯🤯🤯_

[@osiristextingstories2006]

I can't wait for Byfs Coverage in the winterbite Lore

[@avatariroh8867]

This makes me think that there is a ton more lore hidden by interactions between items and hidden dialogue

[@nekotyrant1629]

Post-Campaign Nimbus has quickly grown on me. He isn't pure DudeBro mode like he was during the main quest.

[@GazingTrandoshan]

Yea , hes mature deep down , hes just coping with whats happening

[@grasshopper9220]

It is quite weird that, ngl, every character that felt a bit off during the campaign has felt right back on good course during the post campaign storylines. I don’t know what happened with the campaign to make everyone so off

[@IlIentente]

Interesting.. Appreciate it! Don't sweat it, this is good work. The black heart animates the vex The black heart mimics the veil The veil is linked to the traveler The veil is linked to the river of souls Perhaps the traveler animates & enhances life via the veil as the black heart animates & enhances the vex.. The witness seeks the traveler & control of the veil Though he has not destroyed it He entered the travelers gate.. The vex use gates to traverse time & realities / dimensions & are linked to the cloud/ veil like the traveler The witness seeks the final shape ... What is shape? In what way? A reality of his own? To erase it? Strand has the power to create & has taken longer to master despite its relatively simple access.. Despite everyones dissapointment (myself included) theres much more to this & i can see why LF was split from TFS.. what shape will be made? By who? I wonder what it may look like..

[@knickiicht]

He wanted to destroy it, though. He told calus to destroy it after linking

[@SpectralLuna6277]

If you think for a second that the raid will give answers to the fuckfest that was the campaign...Lower your expectations right now.

[@Copper9800]

Yea idk why everyone thinks we will get a huge explanation or plot twist or cutscene... like, it's a raid. Best we will get is a waterpaint cutscene like vow 🤣

[@phoenix5029]

Something else to ponder is that there was a mission in D1 where the Vex grant the Guardian access into the Vault of Glass to clear out a Taken invasion... What if those Vex were sent not by Oryx, but Nezarec for an unknown objective?

[@michaeleldridge1575]

Taken were sent for Praedyth, another kindred soul trapped in the immortal prison of the Vex. I believe the second half of the dialogue at the end is between Nezarac and Praedyth. Prism-prison, Praedyth. This is absolutely spinfoil, but Nezarac initially became trapped in the Black Garden - I assume in pursuit of the Veil - but, was accidentally pursuing the Black Heart as it is a Vex copy. Possibly led on by Savathun. Upon experiencing his quantum untanglement, was branded lost and a betrayer by the Witness. I need to reread the Praedyth/Sundaresh dialogue again, as Maya has become immediately relevant finally to confirm my suspicions.

[@hey_itsnathanial_j1051]

It’s crazy when they say cloud striders only live for 10 years but that’s ten Neptune years, and one Neptune year is 165 Earth years, so cs can live up to 1,650 years.

[@johngancarcik5682]

It makes the 10 year thing feel less of a robbery imagine a what a Neptune calendar would look like o.o

[@Puckett99]

For those of you who may not know, there also seem to be unintelligible whispers at the end of terminal overloads. Just encountered one and was beyond pissed I didn’t have Nezarec’s Whisper on me lol

[@TheXeroLink]

Now this is putting things together even more. The Vex on the Moon during the Vex Offensive makes so much sense now!

[@ethand.5937]

byf will save us from the inadequacy of lightfall

[@Phoenix13Fury]

I think we could all learn a thing or two from the respect and professionalism of our lore daddy lol. thank you byf your the man. hope to see you starside one day!

[@LeQuartermaster]

Calus also gives you more positive and challenging dialogue in the first mission when you have the Shadow title! Or could it be a different trigger, that being you played any of the og D2 Y1 raids or Season of Opulence. Did anyone who didn’t have Shadow get different dialogue with Calus?

[@ultramagnus1859]

I only played through once so I wouldn't know, what's he say normally vs the special dialogue??

[@itsaturtlehead8536]

I don't have it and he still said it.

[@itsharibonph]

Calus will be patronizing if you have the title or not

[@JDxxxxxx]

Noticed this today I have the shadow title

[@Thefishyme]

Everyone has a bad day! You are the my most trusted source for the lore! Keep being you! Your a legend amongst mere men! ❤

[@Liger1337]

The glave about nezerect will work to

[@fredericoeusebio9770]

No... byfs tone was extremely on point...

[@Kalevr1]

Out of curiousity, has anyone else noticed how Ikora's dialog toward our character "Guardian" has changed? While standing near her she talks about how your 'wilting loyalty has not gone unnoticed' and several other lines indicating that the Vanguard has grown suspicious of us. Seems indicative of a coming direction of the storyline, and Ikora's spoiling it early. Byf, this seems right up your alley.

[@LowIntSpecimen]

"Wilting loyalty" Well ikora, where the hell were you on neomuna

[@Landis963]

I think that's a bug, playing Season of the Drifter dialogue instead of something more up-to-date. Did it sound like WQ-Ikora, or Gina Torres-Ikora?

[@equestrianmidnight5619]

Checking people mentioning this, most seem to think this is a bug. Our Guardian has done a *lot* for the City. Zavala supposedly doesn't shut up about us and Ikora admires and calls us a friend. People are saying this dialogue is playing without ever playing Season of the Drifter. They're also saying they sided with Aunor during that time and they're still getting this dialogue now, so it's seemingly a bug.

[@Jofamo]

When you pick up the Deterministic Chaos gun in the Black Garden, you can hear Savathun’s Song/motif play in the music. Might the person who is not Rohan speaking in the lore tab be her?

[@vicariousmonarch]

Don't apologize Byf. I could only imagine how frustrated and angry you were, as well as many others must've been with how things were dished out story wise. There's nothing wrong with expressing that since it only shows how passionate you are for the game! All that can be done now is hope that pieces can be dug out to put together what exactly we were missing.

[@RuiNDieM1988]

This mission tells me that narratively lightfall has more to offer than the campaign. I wouldn't be shocked if we learn more about the veil in the coming weeks or the raid. Regardless of what could have been done better I really enjoyed the campaign. But it's hard to fully judge the story when it's clear that it's only the stage that has been set

[@jackburkel4119]

Idk why he's apologizing for giving an honest and accurate video about first impressions with the DLC. Change doesn't happen without making our perspectives heard.

[@Kyubii01]

Destiny fans are so afraid of hurting Bungies feelings because they think bungie is their pal instead of a company that has tried to take advantage of their fans and gaslight them when the criticism is too hot

[@davida1229]

@@Kyubii01 lmao the Destiny community loves to shit on Destiny every time they have the chance, if there’s a community that definitely don’t care about Bungie’s feeling is this one. Not everyone or everywhere, obviously. Mostly on Reddit…

[@Jpow5734]

Yeah, it’s true that bungie needs to listen to his words but not everyone likes to make people who spent time and effort into creating something that they might be passionate about feel worthless. You don’t know what it’s like to put countless hours into something hoping people will enjoy and love only for them to turn around and say it’s not good enough. I’m not saying that bungie shouldn’t be held accountable but there’s ways of going about saying it that doesn’t make hard working people that aren’t the higher ups at bungie get depressed and beat themselves up about it. I’m also not saying that’s how byf sounded but if he wants to apologise because he believes he came off that way then that’s his decision to make.

[@jackburkel4119]

To the people that for some reason feel the need to answer this question literally, I'm being rhetorical since it apparently wasn't obvious.

[@jackburkel4119]

@@Jpow5734 There's no easy way of saying a product is bad to someone that's spent countless hours working on it, but that doesn't mean you don't say it still. We just went through almost a whole year of trash seasonal content up until season of the seraph. This expansion was supposed to be exceptional, especially considering the masterpiece that was witch queen last year. There's absolutely zero reason for this dogshit pacing and horrible storytelling.

[@takensteak4485]

This is so interesting thank you byf for the awesome video as always

[@MichAllen]

Nezarack's Whisper Glaive will also give you the dialogue without being a warlock

[@warferno1957]

Thank you byf…. We needed this…

[@ZenithofDark]

Can we talk about how they pulled an Indiana Jones with Calus? He was completely unnecessary to the outcome of the story. We were already looking for Neomuna and the Veil (which everyone but us seems to know what it is), and since our ghost made the link between it and the witness that means that they never needed to send Calus in the first place, cause again we were going there with Osiris anyway. In fact, because of all the side bits we had to do because of Calus, it took us longer to get to the veil than it would have if he had just done nothing at all.

[@davida1229]

The Witness didn’t want to risk anything lol. If the Veil wasn’t at Risk, maybe we wouldn’t have gone there in the first place. If Calus succeeded in his duty then good, if he failed that it doesn’t matter, the Witness win in any case. We wanted to reach the Veil only because Calus was actually coming for it for the Witness…

[@rodrigocardona7807]

Lowkey thé boss fight was fun as heck! After years and years of serving that opulent turtle, calus fight was by far much better than savathun’s…

[@JesperVille]

@@davida1229 I know it’s kind of bs but I really do think that the Witness always thought of calus as expendable, opposite to a “true” disciple such as Rhulk or Nezarec

[@davida1229]

@@JesperVille that’s exactly what happened imo. The Witness don’t give a shit about Calus, it sent him here because even with his failure, it would have won regardless. Calus doesn’t respect the Witness vision about the universe, as the cutscenes shows, I don’t think it could care less about his fate lmao

[@Mystic-nw3ew]

@@JesperVille I mean judging from how angry the Witness got at Calus in barely like a week of Calus being a disciple, I feel like the plan was always to have Calus lose. The whole “the Witness can control Ghosts” thing might have meant that the plan was to get the Guardian to the Veil in the first place. If the Guardian wins, then get the Ghost to establish the link. If the Guardian loses, then have Calus establish the link while still having a powerful disciple at your bidding.

[@stevelopez6957]

With this context I think the veil is probably some form of conduit that allows the bonding of light and darkness, probably a 3rd entity to the garden and winnower, someone mentioned before light fall that maybe the Veil was the classical concept of chaos, where light and darkness meet and become one, with that knowledge it makes sense why the witness needed it and feared it, it could be a tool to control or destroy both light and darkness

[@ecfeclipse]

I really hope the lore cards and Byf can fill us all in, cause this is like D1 days of confusing