Destiny 2 Lore - The Winnower VS The Witness Explained! | Myelin Games

[@MyelinGames]

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[@christianyaerger1751]

It's my belief the Witness wanted to freeze the universe in a Final Shape because it was tired of the Game between Winnower and Gardener. The Winnower and Gardener are more than the Darkness and Light, Veil and Traveler; they embody any and all acts of taking and gifting, respectively. They are the very things that breath life into the universe. And it was only bringing everything to a screeching halt that the Witness could disempower its "gods". When the Witness spoke to the Vanguard about being agents of chaos, it was referring to perpetuating a universe that played by the rules of the Winnower and Gardener. Moreover, in Conway's Game of Life, there's a pattern called a "Still Life." Quite fascinating stuff!

[@HoneyDoll894]

not to go into raid lorebook spoilers too much but in there it seems to be revealed that the witness doesn't actually have logic behind what it's doing, but it believes its helping all universe in the same way guardians protect the city

[@avalokiteshvara113]

Witness Deez nuts

[@nickpillow5692]

Will we eventually somehow fight the widower or gardener or maybe both?

[@The_0G_Chad]

This is exactly right. As soon as the witness showed up and had his ships full of species that were frozen, and he talked about life itself being cruel, and the smoking head, I knew it was an entire race who was disappointed by the traveler. as soon as I saw, it had reached the veil and was still trying to create its final shape, I knew it was disappointed in the darkness. If it was just worried about not living, it would’ve committed suicide, it was more about stopping the current way the universe exists and breaking the cycle… How anybody thought the witness was the winnower is beyond me. It was clearly not the ultimate big bad just like the traveler is clearly not the gardener. The traveler is an agent of the light pre-programmed to propagate species and advance them, and give them the tools to break the cycle of the darkness. The darkness is there to prune the civilizations until it reaches the final form…. Which is becoming us. We are proving to be the strongest because we’re embracing both the light in the darkness where all of our other enemies have picked one or the other.

[@tinytyrant8340]

I agree, the witness/ precursors basically glimpsed the fate of the universe AKA the pattern of the flower game when it looked into the veil and it assumed that purpose onto itself and thought it was helping the universe by just making us reach the same repeating pattern faster so we dont prolong the flower game in vain.

[@SALEENS7GTR5]

"Unveil deez nuts" the guardian said as they unloaded another barrage of paracausality right into the Witness's mouth

[@I.K.E.L.O.S]

Lore accurate byf

[@gjorne-4529]

Excision Finality moment

[@Ace-ob9yk]

And the Witness answer with: Witness Deez Nuts in your mouth, while wipe the fireteam for the Nth time

[@skyywarp-kc2prn]

Between you, Byf and Evade you guys are the best lore masters for the Destiny franchise and we in the Destiny community appreciate you guys

[@nickpirate1998]

Love when you completely pause when you hear the Witness say "Winnower". The lore side of you completely took control.

[@Dyndase-29]

I've actually never thought The Witness is the Winnower because they were once visited by the Traveler. Winnower sounds like something that is rather equal to the Traveler/ The Veil or even greater.

[@zerotodona1495]

Winnower and traveler are more or less sister like beings. Light can not live without its shadow.

[@Mashamazzi]

​@@zerotodona1495 and what casts a shadow? A veil

[@Eltipi82_]

@@Mashamazziexactly. One for the other. Balance. As all things should be.

[@Mashamazzi]

@@Eltipi82_ when we were on Neomuna I felt like the veil was the balance, because it can cast a shadow from the light

[@Mike1400a]

Agreed. I also remember awhile ago how it was stated that The Witness isn't darkness itself, but merely wears the darkness. That told me that it's not the Winnower. Although I'm curious, why is it's name "The Witness" What did it witness?

[@Sharp_Is_Based]

The universe is a chess board with 2 players sitting opposite each other. One is The Gardener which is the primordial force known as Light and the Traveler is it's King piece on the board. The other is the Winnower, the primordial force known as Darkness and the Veil is its King piece on the board. The Gardener essentially Keeps creating new rules or altering then every time it's close to losing in the belief that in doing so the game of existence in the universe itself might evolve into something new and possibly better. The Winnower wants to end the game because it feels like the Gardener just keeps changing the rules, essentially cheating, and subverting the original purpose of the game itself. Us as Guardians, and the Witness are the knives or pieces they wield against each other on the board.

[@gumgumleobazooka]

Easily my favorite kingdom hearts game

[@archon9383]

I wonder if the concept of the First Knife is essentially a way of going around the Gardener's heavy emphasis on entities choosing their own fate, as both the Witness and Maya Sundaresh *chose* to create a gestalt consciousness, though one dominated - presumably - by a central overriding will. It sure makes me think that the Winnower is influencing beings to try and recreate the Vex - assuming that the Winnower perceives the Vex as being the "correct" winning strategy of life.

[@dylr7883]

Damn you just caught me up conceptually thematically on all of destiny

[@God_Diabeto]

The winnower believes in sword logic. I wish he touched on more of the “first knife” ship lore page where it had mara and Ikora wondering if the winnower gave the power of the taken to oryx like he gave it to the witness. The hive is the race that perfectly fits into the winnowers final shape. However the witness believes sword logic to be stupid so outright going against the winnowers beliefs. The book of sorrows from destiny 1 (which are still cannon) discuss oryx getting the power of the taken after he reached out into the deep with an infant ogre as an offering. It is heavily implied through the use of “I” pronouns instead of “we” and the overall personality of the being oryx spoke being different than the witness, that oryx was speaking to the winnower

[@archon9383]

@@God_Diabeto Unveiling practically screams in our face that the Vex were the original pattern that dominated the flower game of life, that irritated the Gardener so much that she changed the fundamental rules of reality so that something else could have a chance. Unveiling literally describes the Gardener as being "vexed". I don't think it's accurate that the Winnower "believes" in sword logic, I would say that the Hive built their own religion out of the half truths that were fed to them by the Worm Gods. I think that the Winnower believes in strength for the sake of strength alone, and that the Hive are currently the closest thing to its direct disciples that exist and that can actually compete in this new, paracausal reality. But if we look at Unveiling, it's pretty clear who the Winnower thinks should have always been the correct pattern, the correct strategy for life - the Vex. To quote the Winnower: _"But they are not incontrovertibly destined to rule this cosmos. They were made before Light and Darkness, but the rules are different now, and even this pattern must adapt."_ _"They are not all mine, not in the way that admirers such as my man Oryx are mine: utterly devoted to the practice of my principle. But some of them have, nonetheless, found their way home."_

[@archon9383]

Breaking this up so I don't have one mega-comment: I do think that speculation on this sort of thing is fun, but not terribly useful, in that it's pretty obvious to me at least that there never really was this one greater story that Destiny is built on. They had the Light and the Darkness, and there was some cryptic shit that different people wrote years ago, and the current writers are looking back at that and doing their best to make a story out of it that can be told in a straightforward, narratively useful way. There was this particularly ham-fisted reference to the Unveiling lorebook that caught my attention, one of the memories you can access in the Pale Heart is a conversation between Zavala and Caiatl, presumably in the City before Zavala left for what he thought was his last mission. He tells her to "ring the city with spears" in an obvious callback to Unveiling, where the Winnower is describing the Gardener's great wager on the Guardians: _" That wandering refugee chose to make a stand, spend their power to say: "Here I prove myself right. Here I wager that, given power over physics and the trust of absolute freedom, people will choose to build and protect a gentle kingdom ringed in spears."_ And like... that's fine. It's fine to have fan service, and it's fine to be excited about payoffs, but it just feels cheap to me to have a story that was written without a conclusion, then being sort of stitched together by other people years later, constantly thumbing back in their lorebooks trying to make everything work. I can respect the effort, at least.

[@IBeCthulhu]

Honestly it's probably just a massive re-write. Early on the whole Gardener/Winnower seemed to be the direction. I even think Pre-D2 the Hive originally communed with the actual darkness and the Witness was a concept implemented around Forsaken.

[@r3mxd]

its what happens when bungie goes full woke DEI and hires rtards for writers w zero self awareness of story telling

[@lonewitness]

No, you're just not understanding that darkness is not actually evilness, it's just a metaphor that (refers) to evilness, it's not that it actually is evil. Everything in the universe is made of energy, so in reality there is no darkness power like there is with the light, because light is produced from energy. This means that the winnower its self most likely was made into what it was by the traveler just like how ghosts are made, probably through encryption, or by simply separation by putting it into a separate body idk. So what I'm thinking is that the Winnower probably asked to wager a bet that If the traveler separates part of itself into smaller parts (Ghosts) and gave them their own sovereignty (free will) that most of them would choose a life path of destruction. (Probs because he himself messed up in the travelers eyes and became jealous, and wanted to not be the only one to fall from it's grace)

[@lonewitness]

So also what I'm saying is that when they communed with the "darkness" what they were really doing was communing with the witness due to his ability to manipulate by using energy. The Gardener(Traveler) only allows this because it's apart of the wager (game) to see if and what Ghosts will choose to join him in his quest or refuse the offer.

[@lonewitness]

I have a theory that the reason the traveler has ever separated parts of itself in the first place is because it might be trying to permanently separate the ones it does not like or maybe to assimilate information on what would happen if it were to choose to do something that a ghost has.

[@tank_dempsey]

See, I think both things exist at once. I think oryx’s brood, specifically, communes (or at least used to before he got knocked into a coma) with the winnower aka the darkness. After oryx killed akka, he spoke with *something* directly and based off speech patterns we know it wasn’t the witness, and was most likely the winnower. Where as xivu and savathun served the witness, I don’t think oryx did. They even say in the books of sorrow they “had to go their separate ways and grow different” from each other. I think xivu and savathun got sucked back in to the witness where oryx didn’t

[@SkyRainpuff]

7:40, I call bullshit on the senior narrative director. more questions than actual answers. The only thing confirmed is who the Winnower isn't. This just means the Witness is a fanatic and went on a crusade based on his interpretation of the Winnower's will. The Winnower still craves a Final Shape. Just not the one the Witness wanted to impose. Also if the veils is a conduit of communication from the Winnower to mortals, then the traveler can be seen as a similar entity. Although, darkness is based on thought and willpower and light is based on the physical and action. You should look at the lore book regarding light and dark. Its the one tied to the campaign. Eido makes mention of how Eliksni view "The Great Machine" as someone who follows equivalent exchange versus how Guardians see the Traveler.

[@Dras7]

I don't think we are ever gonna get more, stuff with light and dark could kinda stay like this forever: the traveller (which was revealed to be basically an idiot in the visions) stays there without threat and the winnower stays there watching us. This was marketed as the end of light and darkness saga too so I wouldn't expect those to be much more present in the future.

[@Luckydave123]

Seth dickinson, the writer behind unveiling and most of the gardener and darkness lore since d1 until lightfall had a clear Vision what the darkness is and how the grand Story of the universe should go.. and bungie ignored his work He himself said he is dissapointed in what direction the destiny narrative went, and that the destiny lore is nothing more than the preoccupations of writers with no value to the overall IP, meaning that he wrote his lore about darkness, gardener/winnower on his own, not for some great narrative plan (because there was never one) but because it was kinda his headcannon what the conflict and theme about light and dark means and represents. He did not follow a narrative plan laid out by bungie, he wrote his lore (and its a great amount of lore about darkness/light, winnower/gardener, rasputin, awoken..) and its up to bungie what they will use and what they will retcon, effectivly resulting in destiny lore not really mattering because bungie can just ignore or retcon it if the narrative team feels like it.

[@BeefyPhill]

I’m really happy you still make these lore videos. I’ve never gone to anyone else 🤣. All the lost sleep is worth 🤘🏽🤘🏽🤘🏽

[@Msimon156]

Its so great to have your videos again to play in the background while I play destiny; the music with your voice makes me feel nostalgic lol

[@KieranHogan13]

Great to have you back with the lore vids Myelin 👌

[@Wh1sk3yJack]

So happy to hear your perspective

[@Maestro-K1121]

I'm actually early for a lore vid. I can't wait to dive in.

[@Kubae420]

i think bungies pulling a fast one. as in the first knife entry the gardener says they will make themselves into a rule of the game, then boom, traveler exists. then the winnower did the same thing and boom, veil. theres so much hinting that the traveler is the litetal gardener. i feel like the big reveal however many years later is gonna be "oh snap, we have been holding both of these gods the bodies for a while now".

[@Theemptythroneistaken]

They don't feel powerful enough

[@Snickers04ri]

Love the deep dives Myelin!

[@r32dubz]

Winnowing is a process by which chaff is separated from grain. It can also be used to remove pests from stored grain. Winnowing usually follows threshing in grain preparation. In its simplest form, it involves throwing the mixture into the air so that the wind blows away the lighter chaff, while the heavier grains fall back down for recovery.

[@Cumbernumb]

But the precursors coined the term winnower and gardener. In season of the deep in the witness origin cutscene Asha says that the precursors referred to the traveler as the gardener and sought a winnower, they found the veil. Isn’t that just hard confirmation? The precursors were seeking something to attach the title of Winnower to, something that embodies the role of a Winnower, and that was the Veil. Don’t understand why everyone’s ignoring the fact that the Traveler has been since season of the deep and now in final shape been referred to as the Gardener over and over and over. And if the traveler is the gardener it only makes sense therefore for the veil to be the winnower. Also in one of the new raid lore books The Witness calls the Traveler the Gardener multiple times

[@brandonlakin2138]

My issue with the veil as the winnower is that it doesn't *do* anything. The traveler terraforms, it moves, it sends visions (I think), it defends itself. As far as we can tell, the veil has been stuck in neomuna doing jack shit for the last several hundred or thousands of years or whatever. It did not give anything, it was used as a tool. Strand (from what I understand) is a byproduct from it. It did nothing to further its own goals. Also, if the winnower (veil) did create the witness, it throws my understanding of the traveler as the gardener into question. The gardener and winnower are equal matches. If the witness can overpower the gardener (traveler), then it can overpower the winnower (veil). How does the veil create something stronger than itself from its own power? I just don't get it in general

[@spaceboyg]

​@@brandonlakin2138 the best way to understand it is to stop thinking of the traveller and the veil as entities with an agenda or consciousness. They are both enablers and influencers, they rarely do anything themselves, instead empowering and guiding civilisations down their own light or dark path. The precursor race named them the gardener and winnower and the unveiling lore book is their religious text, their understanding of the universe, their purpose/place in it. 'The winnower' did not create the witness, it led them down a dark path and enabled that race to do it themselves to enact their final shape, just as 'the gardener' has enabled every civilisation it has visited to flourish and grow. The whole light vs dark saga started when the witness was born and became more powerful than (or at least able to compete with) the traveller and the veil, the first knife [metaphorically] applied the first wound to an entity that had been untouchable since the dawn of the universe. They started running and didn't stop until they arrived in our system, cue all the lore we know of to this date. The veil may have been quiet while it is in containment on Neomuna, but it has been influencing Maya and leading them down the dark path, might find out more about that in this episode.

[@avalokiteshvara113]

​@@brandonlakin2138why would the Winnower do anything. It always wins in the end, regardless if we succeed or not

[@Mashamazzi]

​@@avalokiteshvara113you mean regardless if we cheat/add more rules to the "boring game"

[@boookythegod]

Aight bro lmao the traveler isn’t the gardener, the traveler doesn’t talk. There’s lore where the gardener and winnower are actually talking back and fourth. Did you even do the raid? There’s plenty said there, even witness himself says he’s not the winnower. The gardener made the traveler and the winnower has the veil in the game of life, they aren’t allowed to influence life directly, so they have those in place to give power and let guardians shape the future, or anyone who wants power.

[@creightonholub]

I actually watch the ads to support your work, sir. Thank you for doing what you do!

[@jamescobb3070]

Thanks Manscaped

[@chrispresler]

Great vid, thanks Myelin

[@radiumtheatre]

Such a great video. Thank you

[@macchingon]

Interesting video! Can’t wait for the other videos on this!

[@martinacosta9482]

man those combat sports were kicking your ass lmao awesome scene.

[@Grayves_X]

I dont understand the connection of darkness to the Winnower. I get that its said it's connected in Unveiling but as you said Bungie said Unveiling isn't completely true. The Darkness being the realm of thought and memory doesnt really match to the Winnower who's a figure of death and entropy. Could both Dark and Light be the product of the original Gardener? The Veil and Traveler may have been one entity that was cut in two by the First Knife (before The Winess claimed that title)

[@MichaelThomas-q3m]

So the winnower is the god of death and entropy sounds so terrifying

[@avalokiteshvara113]

The Winnower is not the god of death and entropy lmao what. That's the Witness's interpretation

[@robbay8610]

If the Winnover introduced darkness into the Traveler, then we should be able to introduce into to the Veil.

[@BrandonKoontz45acp]

I agree never thought about that cool

[@Glitcher726]

Isnt the veil the opposite of the traveler? Isnt it the source of darkness. Im so confused

[@Grayves_X]

​@@Glitcher726I believe they mean bring Light into the Veil

[@prod_muco]

The gardener should introduce light into the veil

[@vgernyc]

Well the fragment of the Traveler in the EDZ is forming hexagons within it.

[@bnblak69]

Love that ❤ u are doing lore videos again. Thank you so much

[@alter6243]

Important to note that the Veil should also have some level of agency like the Traveler. Why would the Veil let itself be taken and hidden from the Witness if it agreed with its's goals?

[@UncensoredGT]

I want the Winnower to be charismatic and convincing in his beliefs, I want to fight the logic in my head to make the "right" decision.

[@mustymonster9877]

Amen.

[@Theemptythroneistaken]

You want to be enticed to your darkest desires like you have just held the one ring of power!

[@storyseeker6028]

I see a lot of people saying the Traveler is the Gardener and the Veil is the Winnower. I disagree, the Traveler and the Veil are tools of the higher. I remember in the old TK books of Sorrow that the Traveler is the sky/Gardeners bait Star or something like that. The same is likely true for the Veil. They are implements, tools to bring their ideals into our reality.

[@Ukioda]

Do the lost ghost quests! All! There’s dialogue with Micah where she talks about knowing Cayde before he was .. either an exo, or a guardian, can’t remember, but it was great!

[@spacejunk8978]

He covered this in the Micah video

[@Ukioda]

@@spacejunk8978 Welllllll shiiiiiiiz. My bad, I obviously missed that video. I know what I’m watching next haha

[@chrisreilly1290]

Everyone is jumping on this and I'm loving it

[@TheWaitingFlame01]

Thanks for the insight.

[@brmawe]

I remember a lore tab about Rhulk talking to a Ghost then suddenly is talking to someone else entirely but through the Ghost. Then the ghost explodes of light.

[@Ventus777777]

Pseudo summary of what I put on Byfs video yesterday: The Winnower does not want to end life, to destroy the Gardener/Traveler. It sees that the rules that the Gardener/Traveler is operating under is flawed, there is no structure and wants to go back to the old rules. I also believe that The Precursors never actually spoke to The Winnower, they connected to the darkness and felt its feelings and emotions, which explains why a knife appeared in its hand, it was neither willed or shaped, it appeared. Finally D3 will be where the Winnower finally decided to play this new game, believing it can win and restore the old rules of the game.

[@charleswoodward5026]

I think the Winnower is like the traveler aka the Gardener. It doesn’t directly control anything like the Witness stated but the Witness is its equivalent to Guardians basically.

[@RavenBeardenStudios]

This changes everything. The fact that Witness being the First Knife from unveiling and it confirming that the Winnower and the Witness arent one in the same is by far the greatest revelation in destiny history.

[@BurlingtonThroatFact0ry]

What a good breakdown!

[@lukasdewulf]

Correct me if I'm wrong but didn't they use the crown of sorrows on the glykon to connect multiple conciousness' together from scorn of something along those lines?

[@xthecre8or735]

Been waiting for this one

[@jonathanmason9697]

A rarely noted juxtaposition, The Witness is one being born of many deaths while The Traveler gives many lives from its one being.

[@Costelloworld]

The thing is Mara and Savathune both have dialogue in which they hint at the fact that there is something much bigger than the witness and the traveler that are controlling things from the Shadows this dialogue for Mara was introduced way back when we were invited to come to her throne room and the dialogue for Sabaton is in the two truths lie dialogue if I'm not mistaken

[@narutrick105]

Witness about to be garglin' these Win-nuts in the raid

[@ErkanZH]

I missed your lore videos

[@brauliovargas4426]

Welcome back lore sessions

[@Mechimmortal]

I just hope we find out the origin and nature of the Traveler /Veil soon.

[@jankie3601]

New entry datemine sujects that the unveiled was actually calling out the witness action as abomination, also is heavily implied that the winnower couldn't care less about the witness death. Seems it actually falls within his sword logic. Regardless, the winnower and gardener seem to be more like spectators at this point. Winnower himself says he doesn't care much about the change of the game and cares more about us in particular to follow the sword logic. Which will do whether the winnower says so or not. It's in human nature. Our biggest advances are always in times of war.

[@DaoraHD]

The Neomuni are also all intregrated into that cloud thing and they have the Veil....

[@tacobread3]

Hey, here’s a question: What are the 9 doing during all of this?

[@mkloven101]

They just watching us having a good time

[@jonwoodall881]

Sorry for the dumb question but is “the garden” mentioned for the winnower and gardener the black garden? Or something else

[@tinystar3010]

I hate that we have to watch collegiate level classes just to understand what tf we're even playing in a video game....

[@Grassdia]

I mean most of it is just theorycrafting and unknown so it’s not like we’re learning facts

[@r3mxd]

@@Grassdia? or OR just tell the story not just blabber words to make it seem "mysterious" cuz after 10 yesrs ppl stop caring

[@Grassdia]

@@r3mxd if it was that cut and dry it wouldn’t have lasted as long as it has.

[@FrostReach66]

I am curious your thoughts on who Oryx spoke to when he communed with the Deep. It was made at a time when the Witness didn’t exist and could very well be a retcon, but the voice that speaks sounds like the Winnower in a way (at least not the Witness). I still personally think it is a retcon, as to me it doesn’t make sense for Savathun and Xivu Arath to have been in contact with the Witness, but not Oryx. There’s also new dialogue in the Final Shape where the Witness says “your brother carves a path to the Final Shape” and that Savathun is “feeding him doubts,” which makes me to believe the Witness gave the power to take to Oryx, as why would the Witness allow him to wield a power not given by the Witness and instead by the being that made it? This would entail conflicting “knives” I think in a way

[@Familiar2086]

This heavily relies on other lore for the object found by us that eris uses to gain this knowledge. Clovis bray also had one and during the moon research they had found that similar object and understood that it wasn't an archive of knowledge. Instead it was a direct communication device. For this to still be the witness would make no sense if eris is being spoken to in real time. Being told a story by the winnower itself.

[@jcpenny6310]

Alright this is a little off topic, but you may see this easier. Do you think that a Vex "Pantheon" is something we may see? Considering the figure in the episode [may or may not be Maya], I think we should consider there are two other human/exo/awoken figures in the Vex Network. Since Asher has shown some form of control over the vex, and we have yet to see if Praedyth will be a true ally or a has a similar control over the Vex--or if he is still bound to his wish of endless hunting, what are the odds a Pantheon of 3 Vex "Gods" like the Hive could emerge? Asher as an ally, the prismatic figure [again may or may not be maya but c'mon there's Ishtar Collective symbology everywhere, even the collars on the Vex], and Praedyth as a wildcard? Are Asher and Praedyth too minor to create a huge new story revolution? I'm not expecting any of that spinfoil above, but I think it's an interesting route.

[@XboneMalone]

I still can't work out which film I think is Winnower Ryder's best work. Unfortunately, our resident Lore expert doesn't answer this most pertinent of questions. I'm leaning towards Edward Scissorhands or Beetlejuice. Zoolander and Being John Malkovich are possible outside bets.

[@ioannisdellios4099]

So are the Vex a creation of the Witness or the dominant pattern in the flower game???

[@lozdbzmario]

Unveiling truthers won

[@Grayves_X]

How? The only thing we have confirmed is that The Witness believes that the Winnower exists. And if it does exist that still doesn't mean that all of Unveiling is true. Just that The Winnower exists, the rest could still be lies

[@condescendingonlineman2136]

vnveiling deniers trvthnvked

[@DominusNox106]

I told you!!!!!!

[@skintxisu]

So Final Shape was the end of light vs darkness saga, but nor really

[@supergatorhator]

So, here's my take on this - the Unveiling lorebook itself explicitly states that the story is a parable (a fictional story designed to relay an underlying message), and also directly states that the gardener and winnower do not exist except as basic fundamental forces, saying they were "as bodiless and inevitable as the primes". The Unveiling lore book was also provided to us by the Witness, but doesn't seem to be written from the Witness' perspective. So, here's the crazy part. I think that the Witness wrote the Unveiling as its way of outlining its ideology to us in a way that we can understand and that echoes our way of thinking. The way the story unfolds feels like it would fit in any religious text out there - the impossible "time before time", the epic battle between gods, etc. Then we have the other parts of the lore book that aren't trying to appeal to the religious elements of our history - things like the chapter on the gene that tells cells to self-destruct not being evil, and how the darkness/winnower is no more evil than that gene is. This seems to appeal to those that wouldn't find a religious text compelling, and instead appeals to the scientific/philosophical parts of the human mind. Unveiling was tailored to these traits that are seemingly specific to humanity because it IS our Books of Sorrow. The Witness provided hive with the book of sorrow, and the idea of the sword logic, but when he talks about it in the final shape, it's with disdain - he specifically calls the sword logic a childish notion and that their obsession with it that ruined the hive. In the same way Unveiling is meant to appeal to our psychology, the books of sorrow and overall idea of the sword logic was the way that the Witness conceptualized its ideology and made it digestible by appealing to pre-existing ideas or the zeitgeist of the Krill, but ended up inadvertently distorting their entire culture well beyond what was intended. All of this is to say, Unveiling is not literal, and was intended to communicate ideology in a way that would have relevance and resonate with humans. I don't think that the Witness was attempting to convey that the Winnower was real when it said it wasn't the Winnower, but the first knife. I think it was trying to explain by referencing the established theology it had given us - it isn't the cosmic force that ends life and brings order, it is the result of conflict between light and dark and was forged from the universe trying to bring order back to itself after the traveler was trying to make it "disordered" by uplifting life beyond what it should naturally be able to achieve.

[@gunmaster260]

Glad we finally have some confirmation for all those out there who would deny the obvious. The real question I wanna know is, in the first mission when we get the cutscene of the Astronaut wielding all of the powers and Prismatic, does that mean we are the astronaut that first discovered the Traveler on Mars?

[@Valhaluke]

At this point I feel like the winnower and Gardener are 2 dudes working on a farm and the guy who plants the crops gets bored of the repetitive nature of the job so he mixes it up using different fertilizer and plants things in a different orientation. Meanwhile, the winnower just wants to get the job done and go home, content with the repeating nature of the job. He finds out the gardeners messing everything up and has to go fix everything and revert it to the proper final shape. However the farm is actually the universe and the Gardener and winnower aren't allowed to directly influence it. the Gardener has the traveler as it's conduit/avatar effectively a terraforming machine and the winnower has the veil which has shown to have some kind of influence on those who interact with it at for an extended duration like Maya/ the precursors did.

[@auggief729]

I always was on the side of gardener and winnower because real beings but I’d like to know more about the veil and what’s inside of it

[@itsPonkulz]

Good background track but it's a bit too loud!

[@Hataraiii]

I knew I wansnt crazy

[@davidbudzik5970]

When we went into one of the new lost sectors and found the sympathetic hive witch, we referred to the Traveler as the Gardener. If the Gardener and Winnower are opposites, then doesn’t that make the Veil the Winnower? Something doesn’t make sense. Either the Traveler is NOT the Gardener, or the Veil is not the opposite of the Traveler.

[@mikereynolds741]

Guardians go round killing anything that moves all for a chance at some loot, i honestly dont think the winnower would be our enemy. If the aura coming out the portal from the traveler has light and darkness coming out of it we as the human race have enough made up gods and monsters that could be made real by those powers of light and dark, maybe thats how we get vampire scorn in the next act, anything that is in thought or memory could very well be made real

[@BrandonKoontz45acp]

Thank you for the good lore video always look forward to your videos if it wasnt for you i wounldnt know whats going on lol

[@SALEENS7GTR5]

0:49 when the Witness says "gods formed us both" are they referring to the Guardian or the Traveler? Because if its saying that the Winnower made the Witness and the Traveler formed the Guardians, then the Traveler is the Gardener? Or am I missing something?

[@doomsday_72]

I thought it was pretty obvious the traveler is the gardener the one that has domain over light and the witness “worships” the winnower who has domain over the dark the witness is similar to a guardian in terms of how they use darkness

[@BrazarB]

You should *really* cover Inspiral's final lore entry as it adds more context to The First Knife I really hope the Winnower isnt the big bad as that would be boring & hurt TFS & the Witness imo (it would also just be a retelling of Light vs Dark), also the Winnower isnt puppetering the Witness, the Witness outright says that no one tells it what to do & how it shapes the universe, it even pokes fun at the sword logic/Winnowers philosophy in the campaign (Rhulk even has dialogue from the Preservation mission about how he & the Witness tried to steer the Hive away from it but couldnt. The Witness & The Winnower have opposing philosophes, the Winnower believes TFS will naturally happen, while the Witness wants to force it, a stillness that ends suffering & is perfection. Im ready to move on from the Winnower already, theres new stuff to explore, the Witness deserves to be the main villain, let it be

[@darkelf921]

Regardless of everything else, I am so glad we are still excitedly discussing the Gardener and the Winnower after almost 10 years 🙂

[@lyrictdk]

That concept isn't 10 years old in Destiny. Unraveling came out in 2020

[@MrMightyZ]

They’re using the old “Perhaps these facts WEREN’T so factual but just someone’s perception of their present or past” yeah mate you retconned it again and you’ve used that “You guardians were wrong to assume those facts were factual. We didn’t tell you the facts were facts! You just assumed they were! But history is amorphous because it made of perception, tainted by ego and often just plain wrong!” I call BS and I stack that with a call of shenanigans and top it off with a message of “Get stuffed Bungie ya BS artists. You historically-proven perpetrators of multiple cases of shenanigans!” Story by committee sucks. The lore entries after the fact are beautifully written but the story is just flakey. Just “Oh right, so what is it this month?”

[@GamingStar1995]

The Witness wanted the game to come to a halt with its final shape. Thats why its called the witness. It has seen what the darkness and the light can do by the hands of both "gods". And they both yield life and death. The best way to win a game is not to play. So the witness wanted everything to be still so no one will live or die. We saw that it can slice up everything, but what if it could put them back together again with the travelers light?

[@midgetmasher166]

IT AIN'T WINNOVER

[@JCTriple7]

LOL 😂

[@ActuallyEllrod]

The Gojo lovers are now in Destiny 😂😂😂 it’s never GojOver

[@dillonjones8540]

🚪👈😉

[@ChibiPj]

Nah I’d Winn

[@pedronunez1265]

Bruhh 😂

[@reamoinmcdonachadh9519]

The idea that the Witness could be the Winnower was always going to be wrong, just as the idea that the Traveler was the Gardiner was. Whomever the Winnower and/or the Gardiner are, they are themselves aspects of something else, but what or who? I cannot grasp that even with EVERYTHING the "Gardiner" (Traveler) gave them, the Precursors lacked the necessary intelligence and acumen to discover 'purpose' for themselves. I mean, they had a life BEFORE 'discovering' their "Gardiner" so, what was that like? How did they live it? How did they find 'purpose' in the things they did, before their discovery of their "Gardiner"?

[@delirus7]

Help me to ID the background music, pls?

[@dezzdinn]

So the discussion we had the other night on !shoutout ShadowfaxVIIIXIII’s Twitch channel (awesome skilled no mic chill streaming) and she came to the same conclusion as you, Myelin. I believe both the witness and the traveler are heralds of each the Winnower and the Gardener, respectively. I believe the Gardener is gone, either killed or something else and the Traveler is its tool, like it’s contingency plan. That why it never speaks. It’s just a big super ai or such.

[@dezzdinn]

Also think the Winnower is not able to physically able to manifest in our universe, maybe both (gardener as well). Similar to the Nine…..

[@cuppy666]

I don’t understand how this is the end of the light and dark saga, if the witness is just a user of the darkness and is the cause of the collapse then is this not just the end of our conflict with the witness while we still have tons of questions pertaining to light and dark?

[@Ashcroft1313]

😮 oh my

[@ThaiGuy85]

I think the winnower is just the veil as the traveler is just the gardener. I don't think there's a being above the witness pulling the stings, I think the witness was just saying that they're the instrument that was meant to bring the winnower and gardner together, causing the final shape. This is the parable that was created by the civilization that became the witness. The light vs dark saga was caused by fanatacism - and that saga is over now, so I wouldn't count on a big bad that was secretly controlling the witness. I think the next step for destiny is exploring the power vacuum that now exists, and the next big bad will be whomever comes out on top who is trying to do something that the "good guys" don't like. I hope we don't just continue getting bad guys who use the gardener / winnower parable to continue trying to undo the universe.. yawn. I hope we travel out of this universe and find other forces beyond light and dark.

[@The_0G_Chad]

We are the Winnowers final shape now that we have been using darkness and light to become the ultimate weapon. By beating all of the other races or ruling over them we are proving the sword logic unintentionally. But the great game is actually very simple. It’s a giant tournament to create the best specimens. it’s ironic that the light and the gardener are the ones to achieve this end

[@JeffreyBlenman]

I've never believed that the Witness is the Winnower. I think the Unveiling is an allegory of sorts to describe the way of the universe, life and death, as they (the people of the Witness) came to understand it by studying the Gardner. The Gardener creates life, the Winnower takes life. Not maliciously, but just as a constant of yin and yang, give and take. A balance of the universe. The Traveler, or the Gardner as it was known by the people of the Witness, created life, terraformed planets, and gave many races their golden age of growth and prosperity. The Winnower keeps things in check by influencing other beings through the Darkness, though it does not necessarily dictate the Darkness be used for evil, much like the Traveler does not dictate that the Light be used for good, as we've seen in the form of warlords, dark guardians, and the Hive. The conclusions that the people of the Witness came to about purpose and the Final Shape are an extreme of the Winnower's place in the universe. The Witness' story describes the flower "game" as if there is a winner. If they came to the conclusion that the Gardener's unchecked creation just creates chaos and there is no purpose, their interpretation of this "game" would be that the Gardener would eventually lose by the Winnower stopping the Gardener's perpetual creation, thereby leaving the garden in its Final Shape. This gave the people of the Witness the purpose they sought. To end the game, the Gardener's perpetual creation, is to create the Final Shape for the Winnower. They assume the Winnower wants to "win" this game. So, they go about carving the Final Shape. So the Witness becomes the Winnower's "first knife," assuming the precursor people are the first to come to this conclusion and act on it. Now that the Witness is gone and the Traveler still lives to continue creating life and prosperity, the Winnower will find another knife to continue the game and winnow the life that the Traveler creates. How the next knife goes about that, whether it is to the extreme of the Witness or not, remains to be seen, but it seems like with limited understanding and consideration of balance in the universe, it is almost a certainty that the next big bad will eventually come to the same conclusion that to achieve the goal of the Winnower and stop the Gardener, they have to destroy the Gardener and everything it creates. This suits the Winnower in so much as it will accomplish its goal of counteracting the Gardener and as long as the Gardener has people like humanity and lightbearers defending it, there will be a balance to having a being that will attempt to destroy the Gardener since is unlikely that it will fully succeed.

[@martinacosta9482]

Whats even crazier, please think about this. In that line "Gods forged us both. But they cannot tell the knife what shape to carve" We were also forged by gods, and we , our guardian, are also the knife.🤯

[@AztecrossGaming]

Winnower!!

[@BloodScorchedSun]

Definitely seems like a retcon and they hand waved it away.

[@FortniterX]

What happened to TFS being the end of the dark v light saga? How can the winnower plot line not just be a complete contradiction? I guess if winnower has nothing to do with the darkness?

[@davida1229]

Because the Winnower won’t be our next bad guy lol. He just exists as a character, it doesn’t mean that we’ll have to fight him in the near future. Light and dark will still exist as core parts of the Destiny universe even after TFS.

[@Hataraiii]

Then end of light “vs” dark Vs As to say the end of the fight between the two Light and dark are elements of the universe they aren’t going anywhere but the war between them is over At least that’s how I understand it to be

[@zerotodona1495]

More or less, the witness is going to put everyone into a happy dream while irl, he freezes everything so there is no pain or death. It’s very weird though. What about his disciples? Nezarec would clearly terrorize people who don’t agree with nightmares for example. Rhulk would still be simping? And the guardian??? If we had agree to be a god next to the witness, what does that even mean? That the witness is lonely and wants a bit of chaos to keep him entertained? Bungie needs to clear up a few things as to what and how the witness thinks. He made his motive clear what he wanted to do but not fully why but to reject the flower game. He gave himself purpose and it was to force the will of stillness onto others. The warlock outfit suggests the witness takes some form of pleasure in doing it so it creates perfection. They need to explain why life itself was not good enough. Did the people become sterile (like guardians) so no kids? There are child size statues though. Did the traveler accidentally take away the meaning of life?

[@Borderlesscott]

Wish they’d just tied it all off and started a fresh rather than leaving breadcrumbs towards a possible already existing and known baddie in the winnower or veil and what it chooses as the second knife.

[@eErudius]

To be a witness... you need to have to be witness to something... retcon or not... it seems obvious there was something greater than the witness.

[@TheUnderfinedGamer]

I don't think the Witness was using the Winnowers paracausal powers. If the Veil and Traveller was one entity separated that means the power of strand, stasis and the 3 elements are all one part of creation. The Precursors all had prior contact with the traveller, and the actual Winnower had the witness use the full spectrum of light abilities not to use darkness to destroy everything into the final shape, but to use the travellers abilities to use its power of creation and reforming to re-create the universe into a final shape. In short, winnower told witness to make a final shape and use the travellers abilities against itself instead of the winnowers abilities to just destroy and remove things from existence. The idea of light and dark being gardener and winnower / traveller vs forces of "darkness" is just golden age humans who didn't know any better referring to the forces that put them through a near extinction level event and caused dark times for the civilisation just said, they evil and dark and they use strange powers so they darkness. Our new understanding on darkness is its still one with the light, the same cosmic force, two parts, 2/4. We've yet to see the actual paracausal powers of the winnower or anyone wielding it. The winnower tried to hide itself and have the travellers abilities used against it and failed, now its going to present itself to our reality.

[@Warstory0126]

Facts

[@jsoc303]

bungie: the darker² darness³ = there must be another antagonist, it has to be the darkness even though the saga ended. what a never-ending game.

[@jamiep8682]

The winnower has always been part of destiny lore

[@mat.b.]

tldr; the Winnower is the real Darkness and the Witness was just another Oryx but gayer

[@js141435]

I want there to be twist where the guardians and the traveler are products of the winnower and the gardener has been doing the bs this whole time

[@joeybechtold2622]

I think this is the hierarchy winnower>veil>witness and gardener>traveler>guardian

[@user-hf1tv1fl2o]

The winnower is the darkness/veil. It's a force like the traveller. Neither one speaks or is a physical entity. They're not beings. The witness is the "winnowers" avatar or "knife" as the guardians are/were the travellers avatar..

[@tinytyrant8340]

From my understanding, all religious texts even IRL are just interpretations/assumptions of the authors and not any direct learning/preaching from any god. So from Bungie's own wording by the team and the lore, the winnower and gardener were "primordial beings" that played the flower game from outside the bounds of the universe but once they decided to "add" themselves into the game/universe, they became the traveler and the veil. One is an entity that grows/nourishes life whether it is good or evil(guardians, hive, fallen, the precursor race, maybe more) and the other entity that shapes thought into reality- "the gardener and the winnower". This is how they are now a part of the game and influencing it from the inside- "the new rule".

[@jeremydaoud6792]

so seems like the witness just didnt want to listen to the winnower lmfao

[@redactedredacted8107]

Skira, The Watcher

[@BlackWave54]

I hold the knife Taint scratcher