Destiny Debates Sam Seder From The Majority Report.

[@destiny]

Destiny and Sam Seder debate student loan forgiveness. Enjoy! Follow Sam Seder ►twitter.com/samseder Watch Majority Report ►kzbin.infovideos (EDITOR'S NOTE: brought back the OG blue intro screen for this one lol)

[@m.czandogg9576]

@Joseph Hmm IIRC you're the one that calls most things "cringe"; am I right?

[@bobbyjayz1726]

Destiny killem :) lol why does sader sound like he's about to croak O_o

[@willhaynes3505]

@@danoco6385 The irony.

[@puppetperception7861]

Think of student loans as your technology bill. Someone has to pay for it

[@puppetperception7861]

@TryllaTröllMaistre Fictitious Fables of Europa the finance sector only makes gains as much as what they hold has value. The problem is when they depend on the use of force that we provide for them as government

[@aleksboi6440]

You know this is an important one bc destiny washed his hair for this

[@nutloaf]

Also, a trimmed tash!

[@fonkymunk7864]

Also, isnt playing League

[@sameash3153]

Actually that was coincidental

[@jaftem2x]

Look at how soft and fluffy it looks. I just want to pet him.

[@BouncinBrandon]

😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂

[@The0Gene]

I fucking died when the chat was memeing the "13% of the population holds the debt" shit Lmao

[@BradKohlenberg]

Timestamp?

[@fefe2222]

@@BradKohlenberg 19 30

[@drworm5015]

This was a damn good conversation.

[@RobberClobber]

It’s amazing how when you talk to adults you can have a good conversation and debate over topics vs debate bros on the internet… While this might not be as clip worthy its very educational for your followers myself included 😊

[@meks1478]

Steven said he felt like attacking Sam's character but he didn't want to create drama because he doesn't want to burn a bridge with Sam. That means it's usually Destiny that makes these conversations turn into antagonism.

[@devalapar7878]

@@meks1478 You act as if Destiny is attacking the other side for no reason. If there is a reason to attack the other side, then the other side is just as responsible. Do you expect Destiny to shut up when the other side acts in bad faith? This wouldn't be a debate!

[@meks1478]

@@devalapar7878 there is no other side, he does this with everyone eventually, it's just a matter of time before he does, and then when asked what happened, he just says people just like to back stab him, as if he wasn't the one who initiated the antagonism.

[@devalapar7878]

@@meks1478 I disagree. And I see always the same people complaining about Destiny ^^

[@meks1478]

@@devalapar7878 he initially burnt bridges people on the right that he used to be friends with, now he's just doing it with the left, once he's run out leftists to burn bridges with, you'll start seeing him doing it with the guys with more centrists politics. Don't be surprised when he does.

[@tonybari478]

Destiny is using examples from before the advent of the student debt system.

[@ismeal231]

His thirst for debate sated, Sam Seder returned to his part of the internet satisfied, returning to slumber until such a day when Steven Crowder gets permission from his dad to debate for real.

[@bajula4444]

legends say crowder still watches sam's streams, wearing his holsters indoors, to keep a good hour between him and sam

[@davefranco3811]

Lmao

[@businessgoose6057]

Bear eats... bear rests

[@businessgoose6057]

@@bajula4444 lol Sam is Crowder's "it follows"

[@craigpharaoh4669]

LMAO he shall sleep, dreaming of the day to be awakened anew

[@nemlol]

I want to see Destiny debate a barber on the merits of haircuts.

[@SuperSecretAgentNein]

Alright I’m in. Destiny you look like a goddamned hobbit and this ain’t the shire. Get in my chair. I kid, he looks like an Uber dork when he’s clean cut. The Frodo look is rugged.

[@kevinjohnanand]

It looks good tho

[@lindenstromberg6859]

That opening is probably the happiest I've ever seen Destiny.

[@drdavinsky]

Sam Seder exposed on my recent vid

[@bubberduck4964]

@@drdavinsky ratio + don't care

[@drdavinsky]

@@bubberduck4964 down votes coming from his followers bc I posted on his page. Plus I don’t care that you don’t care, other people do :)

[@Gee-sb2ki]

Thats what i was thinking lol

[@Wingster]

@@drdavinsky your vid sucks

[@mikoajsmolenski5989]

Sam finally got a debate with a Steven, good for him

[@bobbyjayz1726]

XD

[@PhillipUranus]

I literally laughed out loud… Thanks I needed that…

[@lubu2960]

Didn't he already had a debate with him

[@komlat253]

Lol omg omg 😲 😭 noooooo don't say it lol

[@haveagreatday9865]

@@danoco6385 here’s some socks 🧦 you can take those back for your daddy crowders cold wittle feetsy’s

[@TheVirtuosOne]

I've worked in mortgage banking for over 10 years. They always ask about assets. Lots of places have calculators that will give an additional income about based on types of assets like savings and money market or IRAs or 401ks or other stocks and bonds. You get asset depletion calculations. Add that to the monthly income. But they also look at your assets to show you've got money for things like closing costs and fees but the big one is the down payment. That could be anywhere from 5% to 20% or more of the price of the home that you have to pay upfront. So they will check your assets through statements to show you've got the funds. So yes. They look at assets. They pretty much all do.

[@MrMango331]

Banks do but the State shouldn't because it isn't as effective for social change.

[@TheVirtuosOne]

@@MrMango331 just like Sam said. Means testing is often a waste of time and money. That's why universality brings dynamic social change for everyone and is hard to bring down.

[@MrMango331]

@@TheVirtuosOne Except it doesn't since universality is what started this issue to begin with. To give people with nothing the same rights as others after being slaved is comparable to a 18 yo being thrown in to the streets. They'll have nothing to start with and when done en masse it will make the whole community poor for centuries to come. To be fair when you run a company centered around money, your worry isn't social issues but profit. That's why comparing banks to governments is kinda dumb

[@MrMango331]

@@TheVirtuosOne Universality is what brought the issues to begin with. When you throw out a 18 year old to the streets and say "We are now equal" are you really?

[@TheVirtuosOne]

@@MrMango331 you're the one comparing banks to the government. Density said banks dont look at assets when buying a house. I was stating the ways in which they do look at assets when buying a house.

[@QclappedU]

Sam: I wanna debate Steven Moderator* we got Steven at home

[@JacatackLP]

Best comment

[@saskeru9346]

+Destiny better pin this comment

[@godursolamehahaxd9909]

I don't get it but plz don't explain it 2 me >:

[@BenWard29]

@@godursolamehahaxd9909 He wanted Steven Crowder, got Steven Bonnell.

[@Lightningkuriboh]

LOL

[@nikkovalidor4890]

at least one steven can actually talk with sam

[@carrickcullen3567]

Stephen

[@Pleasekillmysonsdad]

Got em

[@bajula4444]

@@carrickcullen3567 STAYVUN

[@MarillSweatshirt]

@@bajula4444 Seeven

[@thegreatfitzgerald2660]

@@danoco6385 What a lethal dosage of cope does to a right-wing child

[@wolfen8622]

Interesting… So there actually is a Steven who’s not afraid to debate Sam.

[@hexgrimoireetc9829]

I'm so used to referring to Destiny as Destiny that i legitimately forgot his actual name is Steven until this comment lol

[@jaygee5874]

Ironically it’s the one that licks his chocolate starfish . This Steven is a mayor Duck with a “C”

[@joppekim]

Damn the chat is so obnoxious. ''Destiny, don't let him talk over you'' ''Steven, TALK OVER HIM'' Nobody is even paying attention to the content of the debate.

[@vgkstone9692]

That’s how it goes around these parts lmao

[@sussybaka1095]

Stream chats in a nutshell. Just a bunch of dumbasses spamming Pepe emojis and repeating the same sentence over and over again, just take a look at the abomination that is xQc’s chat.

[@Ridistrict]

This is the case for almost every streamer. Check out Lance's (the special needs guy on the Serfs) chat when he talks to destiny for a good example.

[@liefhebber6277]

Gosh you guys have sticks up your rears

[@donniejefferson9554]

@@Ridistrict I was going to say you shouldn't call him special needs but I guess being born without a spine would count as a disability

[@tripledigit4835]

Oh No, Sam Seder! What a fucking Nightmare!

[@kiernan1216]

U know he’s serious when he aint playin runescape during the debate

[@blu-fox]

Yea seder isn't quick like destiny but he's sitting on a mountain of research and first hand interviews with experts. I don't think either are worried. Just out of respect maybe?

[@Jasonhoods]

Sam is a beast

[@ommax8499]

Destiny plays RuneScape?

[@blu-fox]

@@ommax8499 does Steven crowder dodge debates?

[@AceofDlamonds]

@@ommax8499 looks like he just grinds skills...normy shit.

[@gagesmiles]

Big fan of this discussion.

[@Young2Kauri1976]

Boring as shit tho

[@drdavinsky]

I bodied this guy on my new video

[@voxomnes9537]

@Don Concern trolling is right. Destiny's hate for online lefties > his supposed concern for the working class.

[@warpath8453]

@Don was is it unbelievable that destiny would want money to be going to better places?

[@voxomnes9537]

@re e Well, if you are willing to be this bad faith, as though we don't know that Destiny has explicitly and reflexively taken up positions against those of "online lefties," I can safely say the the derangement is all yours, comrade.

[@DragonAlchemist0]

DESTINY didnt run from Sam Seder. He has Balls of Steel. Unlike the change my mind meme guy.

[@eeeemmteeee]

nobody of note debates sam because he isnt genuine. he argues straw men with everyone he disagrees with. he doesnt have a boner to pick with destiny. this is just cheerleading.

[@ksilva2848]

@@eeeemmteeee that's the same thing people say about Destiny, and the response is always the same: any evidence brah? Or are you just going to piss and cry?

[@henryburton6529]

He also has feet of warmth

[@117Ender]

@@ksilva2848 simple destiny has been going through a redemption arc...

[@scotaloo77g73]

Seder is a clout chaser.

[@MAYK1NG]

Destiny got stuck in a personal perspective wormhole.

[@gregoryodonnell3793]

He tends to do that. I still like him, but now watch him less for that reason. (Edit: Having now seen the second half of the debate, I have to admit that I wasn't not totally disappointed by Destiny’s perspective here. Sometimes he says things that make me facepalm, but tbh, this wasn’t one of those occasions. Interesting back and forth, with good concerns raised by Destiny, though ultimately it seemed like Sam had thought the issue through a bit more.)

[@mrfahrenheit2006]

Amazin

[@Casperation10]

@@gregoryodonnell3793 "He tends to do that. I still like him, but now watch him less for that reason." 👍 Edit: 👎

[@Luke43168]

Very hard to listen to "destiny's" take on this. Because it is the epitome of a bankrupt "centrist" approach. In actual fact it's even worse than that - what it boils down to is someone who likes to listen to himself talk and show the world how sophisticated and "realistic" he is (when in reality it's the exact opposite) and over intellectualize something with in the final analysis meaningless arguments in terms of the context and the objectives within which they're taking place. To put it mildly, it's gibberish, and he reveals himself to be a very silly person. Conclusion: student debt is needless, disgusting, impractical and detrimental to all of society in a myriad of ways and needs to be eliminated for all asap. It's all class and elitist war on all the rest, going way back. The elimination of all of it (and elimination of cost for higher ed) won't change all of the power dynamics and ills of society but it would have a profound benefit for all, to say the least. So arguing against the elimination of all debt because you dont like the metric by which it would all be rid of is....not a serious argument. It's trite, it's gibberish and silliness. This kind of crap unfortunately is representative of so much so called "intellectual" argument in media and the academy. That's why I write this.

[@Luke43168]

I should add "destiny's" argument, then, is simply not in good faith.

[@24.7SMOKESHOW]

destiny feels like he had it worse than the average college grad

[@justintassin6473]

Yeah, this dudes a clown. Good take! Be well!

[@Matt-jw2yo]

Destiny's chat is just filled with children. "who's winning?" it's a conversation, and why don't you listen and learn and see who you think makes more sense? Twitch has just turned political discourse into weird team sport.

[@martinwilliams1308]

Word up, but concidering a large amount of the audience and active chatters likely are teenagers who spend all day om the computer, I don’t think it really matters. I was dumb as shit as a teenager and was floating all around the political compass. I think the awareness and attention will focus on the politics rather than the «fight» or personality as they age, just like it did to me

[@SeorgeGoros]

I hear ya and actually agree but hey, this is just where this debate culture has taken us. I’m just happy people are interested in these debates regardless of how they may take it in

[@Matt-jw2yo]

@@SeorgeGoros the problem is they're not really interested though are they. They just want destiny to "DESTROYYYYYY" whoever he's speaking to.

[@SeorgeGoros]

@@Matt-jw2yo ok well exposed than, I’m glad they’re just exposed to it

[@Matt-jw2yo]

@@SeorgeGoros I guess that is true. Some will listen and learn something. It's a shame the vast majority probably won't.

[@austinpigza]

Destiny and his cool dad make for great content

[@businessgoose6057]

And Samuel begat Destiny who begat Vaush who is brother of Xanderhal....

[@j.d.snaidauf8546]

Steve and his dad vs.... Steve Crowder and his dad????

[@GO-GO_SO-SO]

I wonder which of these guys is Steven Coward most afraid of.

[@edddy]

If you asked he'd say "Destiny who? Sam Seder who?".

[@MClaudiusMarcellus]

The real question is who is Steven's daddy most afraid of.

[@Tabularasa1996]

Both probably

[@BlakeZeb]

Probably Sam, if only because I doubt he’s all that aware of Destiny.

[@GO-GO_SO-SO]

​@@edddy I guess he is so scared of both that he represses the memory of them as a defensive mechanism. lol

[@zwicker5585]

1:13:45 disproves his own point earlier in the debate. Destiny claims wages for college graduates vs high school earners are going up while HS is stagnant, but this graph shows stagnant wages for both. The price of a college degree has been rising while high school is still free. Big issue here

[@winninglifeyo]

Bingo

[@ruthantiaobong3502]

🤦🏿‍♀️ I can't even. This is why globally America is not doing well in comprehension when it comes to the English portion of tests.

[@calvintorgerson9686]

I think you have to consider that the graph is looking at the median of both high school and college undergrads. It takes from the high and low range and combines it all. Not all undergraduate degrees are worth the same and value. I just don't think it's the best graph to make a point.

[@zwicker5585]

@@calvintorgerson9686 but his point had nothing to do with the variance of one or the other. There’s huge variance for both hence why they use median income. His whole point was that college degrees, although they are costing more over time, they are becoming worth more, which is seemingly not true by his own stats

[@zwicker5585]

@@ruthantiaobong3502 are you calling me American? I take offence to that

[@YukonBloamie]

46:25 Sam's right about building assets. I watched a co-worker over 10 years not give a flying fuck about the company's 401k plan because through a previous trade he already had a guaranteed retirement account.

[@21972012145525]

What do you mean by previous trade

[@YukonBloamie]

@@21972012145525 Trade craft. Commercial diver. I don't know what the industry is like now but they used to have those daytime commercials for schooling while you watched Jerry Springer. Capitalism will market itself hard when it has a labor shortage.

[@ThePulaskiPumper]

Probably a pension plan thiugh a union trade ​@@21972012145525

[@evanstein3011]

Does anyone under 50 care about the company's 401k plan? I do the 5% to get the match but never think about it beyond that.

[@YukonBloamie]

@@evanstein3011 That's generous by today's standards lol. My current company will match that high after 5 years and then the whole dollar amount is capped. I just put it in my IRA from an old 401k transfer.

[@curtbressler3127]

Again.....Destiny lives in the absolutes. Take notice how many times he uses maximal terms; 'always', 'nobody', 'everyone', 'everybody', 'never'. He must think that these terms strengthen his argument when they reveal that his arguments ignore and lack nuance.

[@blu-fox]

Yea he's been told in debate post mortems in the past. Hyperbole is effective with most listeners but destiny is effective enough that he really doesn't need it.

[@enclavestreams3202]

He’s just trying to follow the thread to its logical conclusion. Destiny values absolute statements because it allows him to make logically consistent arguments and therefore develop a logically consistent world view. Anybody who studies ethics or philosophy would tell you this is how you develop a moral framework that has any utility. It allows destiny to look at a problem objectively. For instance destiny was able to show that Kyle Rittenhouse was acting reasonably when he defended himself in Illinois, while still disagreeing with Kyle’s political views.

[@blu-fox]

@@enclavestreams3202 yes, but outside of the theoretical the nuance is everything and this debate is one of policy not logic. There is a more efficient way to get the most relief via student debt forgiveness that has nothing to do with logic per se and by using hyperbole without citing (which I believe destiny could've done more) it makes destiny seem like he's going off a logical feeling of the situation without knowing how it actually pans out with the nuances of reality.

[@KingstonHawke]

@@enclavestreams3202 Ironically, I think that’s a take Destiny gets completely wrong. And most people would agree that he’s wrong. It’s one thing to defend your property with deadly force, but Kyle was running around with that gun hoping to put himself in the middle of an altercation. It’s like a married man going to a brothel and telling his wife he only cheated because he got drunk and he’s not to blame. If Kyle had just stood in front of the store he was there to protect Destiny would be right. But that’s not what happened.

[@jiiaga5017]

I think you are interpreting his positions extremely uncharitably, far more uncharitably than Seder did. If Sam had taken your position and been hostile because Destiny used some mildly hyperbolic absolutes as part of his discussion style, this would have been a useless dickwagging argument. Instead, it was fairly good faith.

[@24.7SMOKESHOW]

How do you not know or understand that debt erases wealth, and/or less income spread amongst more dependants for the same degree makes the income and the degree worth less than others with wealth and enjoy that max income from their identical degrees?

[@crotchy7667]

So true. When people say "learn to program", I ask them if they are a professional programmer and why would they want new grads flooding the job market and competing for the same jobs as them.

[@michaelhawkins5594]

Yea it seemed like he was focused on what families bring in and not on the necessary expenses they have. On top of that how much having a wealthy family not only impacts the amount of loans you have to take (front end) but also what other obligations a family with less wealth has.

[@24.7SMOKESHOW]

@@michaelhawkins5594 exactly!! All because Destiny feels like he had it worse than the average college grad.

[@24.7SMOKESHOW]

wealth is assets minus debt. If you have no assets, student loans just increase your debt. When you have more dependents relying on your income increase from the diploma, you will not build wealth even over a long period of time

[@24.7SMOKESHOW]

@@domenicopastore1721 replied above

[@jesterscupcake]

I would take this content over Zherka every day. Talking memes are fun, but so are real discussions.

[@powercore2000]

As a lover of Zherka memes, its nice to get a good convo too. Gotta spice up my Destiny dishes

[@okloshbrokla8154]

@@powercore2000 i love zherka since heas the only famous aslbanian on twitch but i find the guy fucking obnoxious i wish we had more albanian representatin that werent morons

[@alimneimne]

Hell no, That dating podcast shit was way more fun

[@jesterscupcake]

I also enjoy the memes, but sometimes the obnoxiousness really undermines the quality of the conversations. On this discussion, I tend to fall somewhere between Sam and Destiny, and it was interesting to see a good example of where different perspectives on what we should value more without resorting to ad homs and screaming. Also, that dating podcast was entertaining, ngl.

[@edwardrichard8093]

Please tell me how it was a discussion when they basically got to discuss nothing? It boiled down to "I think student debt forgiveness would be good" and "I dont think it would and basing it off of a bad study isn't good"

[@danielburnham5325]

50:00 Destiny starts arguing against himself

[@gimbub]

Steven, you're giving me ptsd flashbacks with your computer needing updates

[@endlesschris1834]

Thanks to both for engaging in good faith discussion, it's a breath of fresh air seeing people respecting eachother and not just attacking eachother

[@NBAPlayersAssociation]

Completely anecdotal, but it Sam’s argument on Race disparity in college debt is so accurate for me. I’m dating someone now that has parents that are lawyers and my parents work as managers at a restaurant. Our views on money are completely different. She takes trips yearly, and much more willing to take risks with money than I am. She still is about to save 15k a year where I struggle to save 5k a year. She and I both graduated from college. I pay loans back where her parents paid a quarter million to pay for her college. The trajectory of our quality of life has been crazy, I make 10k more than she does a year and still she has more wealth than I do simply because the my money goes to helping more people than hers does. Sam is preaching to the choir when I hear this.

[@RetroRockGamer]

Destiny seems to think that everyone that goes to college becomes a rich doctor or lawyer.

[@Blight1]

That was the weird part, both of their arguments have merit, but Destiny is completely wrong in his assumptions about college. The person who gets a degree in finance and goes on to be a loan officer at a credit union making 20$ per hour with 75k in student loan debt is going to earn dramatically less lifetime than someone with no degree earning 15$ at Target. The reason is only because of that loan payment. Of course the doctor/lawyer/engineer is going to out earn regardless of their loan debt, but that's an incredibly small fraction of all college degree holders. Most are 2 or 4 year degrees that go on to make somewhere between 30-70k, and if that's all you're making with 50k+ of debt, good luck ever earning enough money to afford assets to create wealth.

[@Robin-kp1nv]

If you go to college to study arts/gender mumbo jumbo it's your own fault

[@mikelY0]

Or that Amazon jobs are secure

[@thievingcthulhu8632]

@@Robin-kp1nv small minded dolt

[@thejanusperspective27]

Destiny would make my financial advisor's head explode. Deciding whether or not to relieve someone's debt by looking only at income (ignoring debt) is almost insane. Wealth = Assets - Debt Load. Everyone has wealth. Some people have positive wealth while others have significantly negative wealth. You could have two college graduates making $70,000. One has $5000 in student loan debt while the other has $80,000 debt. Looking only at income, both would be disqualified from debt relief. But you could easily determine who needs it the most by looking at net worth.

[@readysetmoses]

Quite often it feels like Destiny is incapable of conceding a point or being open to changing his mind. I felt Sam had him pretty well cornered in the first half and Destiny would not give an inch. I have watched for years and don't think I have ever seen him concede a point in a debate like this. It is not admitting defeat; it's being open to reframing your thinking based on points made by someone more educated on the topic.

[@JakeLuden]

Well said

[@rainofkhandaq6678]

It's not always about "not conceding" Sometimes someone truly doesn't see eye to eye, or more so, someone can just actually be wrong.

[@rainofkhandaq6678]

@Don You say, but that fact that you said that means my point went over your head. Lmao.

[@Freeagentfarmer]

Sam is equally resistant to conceding. It's common. I agree that Destiny has a certain way of not backing down.

[@tobiaskroon3012]

I feel like that is how everyone is, it's not something strange that in the heat of a debate you have a hard time changing your view. Unless you are reasonable and very convinced by the other person. The revelations comes after the debate. When you can really think about all the points made, and maybe you change your views a bit or maybe you don't. It's not often you see people conceeding points in the debate itself.

[@Ethan-kt7yl]

I've really enjoyed your content the last couple years, you still do a net positive but I don't know wtf is up lately. Platforming Sargon really sucked, getting a 10/10 twitch girl on and just blindly siding with her even though she was saying things you've argued against in the past, and now back on the crusade on student loans. I don't think I've heard you once aknowledge that some people with student loans are getting screwed, you wheeled out a straw man of a doctor getting a medical degree instead, I thought I was listening to shapiro. I think you've gotten really out of touch lately and have moved towards finding the answers you want and making fewer concessions. You've started arguing for positions you've already decided and getting shadier with the debate tactics lately so I'm Gunna stop watching. You said your biggest fear would be looking back and realising you've been in a bubble of your own farts m and it's starting to look that way. Hope you recalibrate soon. Thanks mate, still enjoy your old content.

[@Ziggsters1515]

Don't care+ your white

[@Ethan-kt7yl]

@@Ziggsters1515 very original mate 👌

[@calastyphon4081]

After Kenosha I really didn't see any consistency. I honestly want to see the older Destiny debate 2020/2021 Destiny because he's shifted quite to the right. He said in his conversation with The Serfs he debated the Skeptics community when they were popular and now he's debating left leaning ideas because they're popular. He might just be a contrarian that fights against online popularity of topics. What a dreadful existence to be defined by what's popular.

[@mechalpuco]

@@calastyphon4081 You might be right. Would be a shame, though, he is clearly a smart guy

[@Ethan-kt7yl]

@@calastyphon4081 Ya Kenosha was the beginning of the end. I gave a pass on the contrary excuse untill now because sure you gotta get engagement, but acting like the "waaa a trans security guard is being descriminated against" and "so what if this law targets black people unfairly sux to be them lol" are just as bad as one another is literally the enlightened centerest. Top that off with the occasional friendly chat with Sargon of all people and you got a good pipeline. Sad to see him become like this I'm really disappointed tbh.

[@EuropesNinja]

Oh no!! Sam Seder!!! What a nightmare!

[@erikshure360]

Seeing how quickly this guy brings race into a conversation I can see why.

[@EuropesNinja]

@@erikshure360 Racial disparities are a fairly big issue, don't see what's wrong with bringing it up

[@DougDimmaDab]

@@EuropesNinja he’s scared of race

[@EuropesNinja]

@@DougDimmaDab ?

[@EuropesNinja]

@Uncle Seidl insert emoji

[@domenicgalata1470]

Nice to see two people who respect each other speak on an issue that needs to be spoken about in non hyperbolic terms.

[@ordohereticus3427]

Destiny tends to talk about matching the other party's energy and demeanour, which was probably easier in this case.

[@WiloPolis03]

I was not expecting this out of a Destiny debate with a lefty

[@ordohereticus3427]

To be fair, Destiny doesn't have a problem with the average mainstream left-aligned individual. He himself has stated that within American politics, he could be considered left or even far left, but that he doesn't get on with the extreme left online, especially hard line socialists. On balance, he probably has quite a bit in common with Sam Seder.

[@WiloPolis03]

@@ordohereticus3427 What counts as "real" leftism is pretty much just semantics tbh

[@ordohereticus3427]

@@WiloPolis03 My intention here is not to get into a pointlessly convoluted discussion about what is or isn't real leftism. I am simply stating what Destiny himself has stated, and that aligns quite a bit with Sam Seder. As such, there's little to be surprised about. They've had a long-standing mutual respect between them, but, as Destiny stated at the start, he doesn't quite agree with how far things go with the Majority Report itself.

[@superawesomeman12]

The wealth argument makes sense especially when you consider having to take care of your parents.

[@d4c155]

yeah i had a problem with this part of the debate because it felt like destiny wasn't understanding or addressing it at all. two people can have the exact same income, but if one of them is from a low income family, more likely than not they have family they are giving money to(maybe theyre even the first one in their family to get a degree and make that kind of money), and because of that less money is going towards paying off their student loans and the person from the more wealthy family is going to pay off their student loans faster despite having the same income. obviously there is no obligation to give money to your family, but i think most of us would make that sacrifice if we were in that position.

[@superawesomeman12]

@@d4c155 Exactly. Not everybody has parents that own their house. Now you have to figure out if you can afford to put them in a home or have them come live with you.

[@xayoribangs2449]

@@d4c155 No no. That's not wealth. That's income still. That's what destiny was saying. A "payment" that you have to regularly pay off is negative income, not wealth. Negative income is a function of income. It doesn't have anything to do with wealth if you're paying off a loan on house or paying for family. That's negative income.

[@garchomp3136]

Now we need Destiny to surprise Crowder next.

[@robinthestate6548]

@@therussiantrollnetwork7464 100% agree crowder isn't a good debater. I literally just started streaming because I think most right leaning online people don't understand the left. I was a lefty not so long ago and I became a Minarchist recently. Destiny it's one of the best left leaning debaters out there. I still haven't seen him debate someone that beats him.

[@Pleasekillmysonsdad]

Crowder would probably pull out that pistol from his holster and end it there before Destiny has a chance to ask him anything.

[@Silverfang447]

It's a shame that right wingers are natural cowards and avoid adult conversations. Maybe Crowder's daddy will let him go out some day. 🤷‍♂️

[@fromchomleystreet]

@@robinthestate6548 What makes him good, apart from being smart and analytical, is that he doesn’t feel compelled to make facts conform to a “team” position. If given data happens to favour a specific right-wing position, in one particular circumstance, he will readily acknowledge it, instead of bending over backwards to try to make it fit a preconceived notion. And he will actually change his mind in the face of data he hadn’t previously absorbed. If you want to be an equivalent to him on the right, there’s your key.

[@robinthestate6548]

@@fromchomleystreet that's why i ended up being a libertarian-ish, I used to be really in favor of democrats and somehow i ended up getting in the trump train, I had a weird republican moment. but after getting away from arguing with people for like a whole year which was just making it so it was easier for me to dig my heels in. I ended up lliking more libertarian policies then any other party. I mostly disagree with the libertarian isolitionism and the ancap idea. I think ancaps are mental and do a lot of circular arguments. My problem with the democrats now honestly it's the interventionism and the high amount of bottle necking done by democrat representatives. (republicans do this too) most of the policies I advocate for are to actually to try to help peoplke who are actually screwed in life. (ex: the homeless, people with mental illness, people with disabilities, and people who are really stuck in a low income position) I think that a lot of this stuff will be fixed by freeing up the market and getting the government out of a lot things. I also like environmental protection policies. I don't really think there's a word to describe my position i call myself a minarchist because that would be my utopia but I honestly i'm not in favor of just removing wellfare all of the sudden. I think the people in wellfare are as much victims of the system as are the people being taxed out of existence. I would consider myself maybe a classical liberal but I hate how a lot of classical liberals are just republicans who pretend to be libertarians. Anyway this was a pretty good debate and they both handled themselves well. Sorry about the rant.

[@cal4837]

Destiny could’ve just said “hmm I never considered the burden of claims on income others may suffer from when forming my opinion… it makes sense.” and saved a bunch of time.

[@roosterssaloon]

He didnt even know they check your assests before getting a loan, which when getting fed loans you have to meet certain qualifiers like being low income

[@24.7SMOKESHOW]

the presence of elders makes destiny intellectually insecure. He needs Jesse Lee to balance it out

[@dirtycelinefrenchman]

“Yeah, I guess…but back to my main point which I’m gonna just keep reiterating…”

[@mellifluousthoughts1395]

Or that we already have income driven repayment plans I'm currently on One

[@24.7SMOKESHOW]

@@mellifluousthoughts1395 how many dependants one has an impact not only the ability to repay, the length of time of repaying for most people means they are excluded from building wealth during that period, as there will be little to no income to save or invest. If nearly half of one's working life is paying debt, then those people may have to trade raising a family with paying for a student loan.

[@sorooshusa]

Sam destroyed destiny at every step.

[@suarezguy]

He didn't really counter the point that getting college degree increases earnings more than paying back debt takes from earnings except say Well maybe that's true, it's thought to be true, it may not be and It doesn't for those who don't graduate!

[@mightyghost3604]

From the content to chat, there are like 50 IQ points disparity.

[@MrVonzine]

Lmao, what I noticed during the live stream!

[@MrISAACFACE]

DGG is actually terrifyingly stupid

[@parsifal2299]

Dggers are a bunch of destiny stans... twitch chat was way better

[@MrISAACFACE]

@Don theyre not even debate bros, theyre just pedantic edge lords

[@MiKey-cj2fo]

@@parsifal2299 twitch chat??? DGG for lyfe before I go over to bitch chat DuckerZ

[@jloiben12]

Oh no! It is Sam Seder. What a disaster! ;)

[@adnanomerhodzic3869]

Akchually it's a fing nightmare

[@carnivorous_vegan]

Steven "there's a Twitter thread about it" bonnell

[@nicolasbernal7692]

By the original author of the study…

[@thereverseeffect7269]

@@nicolasbernal7692 Sure but didn't he criticise Hasan for LITERALLY the same shit before? Hasan gets stuff off Twitter too, often tikes from the actual reporters, but that hasn't stooped Destiny from slamming Hasan on it in the past

[@hitomukawakami7124]

See what you can accomplish just by washing your hair, Destiny?

[@billieeisenhower406]

o7

[@kingfathand]

You are both forgetting that education is meant to further human knowledge, not to make money. The commodification of education is the main problem.

[@carytodd7211]

I'm a teacher in Arizona, and I know I (and a whole mess of us) are buried in student loan debt. I have a master's degree and in 3.5 years, I'll *finally* qualify for the public service loan forgiveness program. I have been thankful for the last 12+ months of loan payment suspension.

[@syd6130]

Good luck and congrats on your masters!

[@lunaloveless7234]

Same here lol teacher in canada and almost all of us have basically no chance to pay them back Edit: its a little annoying to hear destiny keep claiming that anyone with a degree is going to put them into upper class when teachers literally have to get degrees and are well known to be severely underpaid. This is not the only field like this either. Plus nearly everyone has a degree now making it almost impossible to leverage to pull yourself up there.

[@erikhumleker1880]

I graduated in 2003 with 96k debt. Mostly paid it back still got a little left. I don't wish that burden on anyone. Black, White, Martian whoever. If they made public college and trade schools tuition free, I wouldn't be one bit upset by that or mad that I paid all that money for something that became free. Those debts are a huge yoke around the neck.

[@Jawhet]

For what it's worth, I have a Bachelor's degree in an Information Technology field, and I'm also a veteran. Still had a very difficult time finding a job. Every employer that even bothered to respond did so with a "what else" attitude. "Golden ticket" my ass. Things just aren't worth what they used to be. Ended up getting a job in a field that my degree wasn't in...

[@Vizceral]

Did you get any certifications ? A+ ? Net & Sec+ ?

[@Jawhet]

@@Vizceral I was working on Sec+ when I got an opportunity to pursue work in an adjacent field, so that cert was put on hold. I was lucky to come upon this opportunity and had enough background attributes to get me in the door (IT-related degree, vet, clearance). But someone with "just a degree" may still find themselves doing hard work to find a place. Of course there are recent external factors that may be influencing talent acquisition (COVID), but the value was already decreasing. I'll be fine because I caught a break, but there are many other "me's" out there who might not be so lucky trying to find their way.

[@alldetected3106]

I got a certificate and experience in IT. In hawaii, I found it difficult to even get a help desk technician job (and I also have call center experience). I said fuck it, imma go into HVAC. BTW I also realized that the real money in IT is fro coders and programmers. I took a little course in coding Python and saw how boring it was lol, it's just not for me.

[@tph2010]

If Destiny thinks student debt forgiveness overly benefits wealthy people, just tax them more on the back end.

[@michaeldromes3948]

Then what's the point of doing it in the first place? You give them money only to take them back? Also why waste so much political capital on increasing taxes when there are far better and precise policies actually adressing the issues?

[@KingstonHawke]

@@michaeldromes3948 Like what? What alternative policy that’s as possible to pass are you referring to?

[@SMP1993]

Wealthy people don’t have to take out loans to send their kids to school. Just like wealthy people overwhelmingly don’t send their children to public universities. There’s not a world that exists where a universal program related to college education benefits wealthy people. Even when we consider the points he is making about high-paying professions creating a dynamic where people with “good degrees” out-earn their debt, everyone knows the insane expense of medical school, law school, etc. Like, yeah, sure, a doctor or person with a law firm should eventually far exceed their debt in earnings. But even in the best of cases, they will spend a decade paying that debt back as opposed to, say, opening a practice in an area that is being severely underserved. If you’re a fan of destiny, I’m not trying to be insulting, but his arguments are so insanely awful that I can’t believe I ever found him engaging. In fairness, I found him engaging when he wasn’t carving out some weird centrist lane for himself, but still.

[@SMP1993]

@Jo Mack Wall Street tanked the economy and lost people trillions of dollars and the government bailed them out with our tax dollars without hesitation. So yeah, in a hypothetical world where someone does fail, I have no problem with my tax dollars going towards paying back their, say, 10, 20, 30k in student debt. But even beyond that, the idea that an easily attainable college degree will lead to a less motivated student population seems extremely counter-intuitive. If anything, I would think it would be a motivating factor. If you’re struggling in school and know that if you drag things out and don’t end up doing well enough to move on to the higher level courses you need to earn a degree in 4 years you’ll be massively in debt, you’re a lot more likely to quit than you’d be if your education is free. A free college education would also mean, for example, a significantly lower number of college students would have to work while they attend school. That directly benefits students and allows them to have a college experience while also taking their studies seriously. Like, will some people squander every opportunity afforded to them? Yeah, sure. Rich people like Donald Trump do it all the time, and there are people from all income brackets who will fail. But as I said before, the difference is when rich people fail, they get bailed out without hesitation from anyone in the ruling class. When we try to bail out the less fortunate, there have to be 14,000 hypotheticals and parameters attached.

[@DevinMacGregor]

@@SMP1993 Not to mention you are not given the money. Your loan is simply wiped out or gets smaller. I do not know people keep bringing up the rich and I am guessing is because they have no idea how one funds education. Your parents either pay for it with can or they can take out parental loans against their assets. This is what rich people do. Actual Student Loans are what the rest of us take out and this are individuals loans attached to the student. Plus you can only borrow so much per year. There is a max cap. One of the largest issues is reconsolidation to where they jack you with a much higher interest rate. You as well cannot refi the loans to lower interest. When you graduate with debt it means you have negative wealth. It means you have less to save for retirement. You have less that you can save to buy assets such as property. And income potential does not mean income actual.

[@TribeByNoire]

Sam really put Steven in a logical chokehold with the wealth disparity argument. Steven's argument only works if you pretend generational wealth is irrelevant. This level of willful obtuseness is why I don't take Steven seriously.

[@redrick8900]

That's more of a nitpick than a silver bullet.

[@LetsGetitBoah]

Generation wealth means something, but it also completely ignores the fact that some people find wealth without having generational wealth behind them. I’m not interested in penalizing people because they were born into a wealthy family. And I don’t understand why anybody else would be.

[@redrick8900]

@@LetsGetitBoah It's weird the way adults have to apply for financial aid based on their parents income regardless of status of the relationship. There are people that are literally homeless trying to go to school but they can't because there parents are rich.

[@terrystevens3998]

@@LetsGetitBoah saying some people get lucky and get rich who are from poor families isn’t a good argument to ignore the data that they are few and far between and for the most part they don’t.. especially now a days when poverty is pretty much the rule for poor kids and wealth is the rule for rich kids.. just because a few people slip through the cracks of the poverty trap doesn’t mean student loan debt forgiveness is not good for the economy and the future

[@kubes8388]

I think looking as outsider the simple answer is just reduce student debt but give larger write off to the people that didn't get help off wealth. to make it equal opportunity in respect to funding. regardless of black or white the only indicator that is always tru with marginalization is talent. ie. ppl who progress faster in skills regardless of money backing them will more likely achieve more in long run of their life than those even with good funding of money. I feel like they're talking too much edge cases of talented + wealthy or stupid + unwealthy.. of course the ladder may be more common based off the way US educational systems work but imo that's why going rather with "forgive" taking the reduction route is better way to still hold the system accountable.

[@NH-gq9qk]

Some mad debate tactics in the thumbnail man

[@p.chuckmoralesesquire3965]

"student loan debt is kind of drag" LOL dorkstiny is clueless

[@davidm1926]

@@danoco6385 We know he's the guy Crowder won't debate.

[@brandonjordahl2283]

Besides the racial aspect, I relate to everything Sam is saying about what black people have to go through in terms of college and debt. It’s incredibly hard to go to school with poorer parents who also have no experience with college and literally just have the idea that you’ll make more money.

[@thumbhead3370]

I love how there are people in the chat screeching that Sam is an idiot and doesn't understand the debt situation while also seeming to have not known that for profit colleges exist.

[@petemoss7704]

There are non profit colleges?

[@crushinnihilism]

@@petemoss7704 Exactly! either we the people pay for college, or the government steals extra money from everyone and we the people still pay for it.

[@crushinnihilism]

@socially unacceptable no. Its not. Your tax dollars pay for politicians that throw peoplw in cages for plants, and agencies that cause mass death and geocides around the planet. Utopia is nice, but lets be honest.

[@ashrobin55]

@@crushinnihilism bro, taxes are necessary for a productive society. Unless you're discussing a moneyless society, you need taxes.

[@crushinnihilism]

@@ashrobin55 if you think the only possible way to run a society is for a ruling class to steal the wealth of the peasents under threat of violence, then maybe your imagination isnt very good. Taxpayers money is stolen. Its not a voluntary contract. You likely cant name a single local or federal actor that collects and distributes them. We cant control were the funds are going. At the moment they're paying the salaries of several government agencies. Agencies that continue expanding. I really dont get when lefties are so defense about this. You're literally funding murder campaigns in syria right now. They dont go to social programs. They dont even fix the roads outside the area that generate wealth and tourism.

[@mikev2821]

This is the first time listening to Destiny that I clearly understand his point and the other side of his argument and completely disagree with him. 1. I disagree with his theory that those with student loan debt has more wealth. Those wealthy enough not to take out loans will always have more wealth for many reasons. 2. I for one have student loan chains that I can’t get rid of and earn just over min wage because I didn’t have emotional stability to finish college. Also I’m with someone that’s hugely into debt and payments take up a HUGE chunk of their pay. By the time they pay off loans they will be old. So basically the repayments will follow some of us for the rest of our lives.

[@calastyphon4081]

It might also be due to Destiny unable to poison the well or character assassinate his opponent before the debate.

[@BobbyJ529]

@Don tbf to destiny, he's gone from being a carpet cleaner to making hundreds of thousands a year streaming video games. I can see how he might value utility of wealth differently to what his income has been able to do for him.

[@Ace-tv2lr]

Sam is cool.His war on Christmas on CNN was epic.

[@truenorthpolitics5666]

Fucking Iconic. They should play that clip every Christmas when Fox News whips out the "War on Christmas" decorations.

[@DSPHistoricalSociety]

Hell yeah

[@TopHatWarrior]

Destiny: "Income is more important than wealth." Sam: "Sure, but what if you can't afford to get to that level of income?" Destiny: "... Income is more important than wealth in theory."

[@bosox1640]

Dude has no concept of how big a factor your, or your family's wealth is, in being successful in this country...yet, at one point, he even said a doctor's kids will have better lives for the amount of money the doctor will make...weird

[@MrMasterDebate]

Yeah. He’s basically just lacking any understanding of the topic. And instead of trying to learn more he’s learning on Reddit and Twitter

[@TopHatWarrior]

@DiglettUser Don't get me wrong, I have a ton of respect for destiny and his rhetorical strategies. Lately; though, it seems as if he's married to his ideology and is more concerned with being right than what is right.

[@ARStartup]

DiglettUser as a person from a low wealth family and a college graduate who used loans to pay for it, I agree with Destiny. I’d much rather have high income potential than some level of generational wealth. It’s not mental gymnastics, just critical thinking outside hypotheticals. Sam made horrible arguments. Sam comes across as someone who knows a lot of facts but has a basic inability to connect the dots and just ignores reality.

[@ShadowTasos]

@@ARStartup How can you so confidently state something so stupid if you really watched this video? The point is that people cannot get to the high income potential that their degrees statistically enable because they are bogged down by debt. A black household for instance cannot afford to sacrifice an equal % of their monthly income towards student loan repayment as a white household, precisely because of the conditions that their statistical gap in generational wealth has created. When you have to send money back to your parents to help feed your young brother, you are more hesitant to even go into debt. In this way, wealth and income are linked, even if banks will only look at your income to debt ratio when it comes to getting a mortgage, that doesn't matter when a larger % of your income is already reserved and you cannot afford to go into debt at all. You are basically using survivorship bias to disregard reality and you are saying that Sam made horrible arguments lol. All because Destiny wants to stick it to internet leftists by claiming debt forgiveness is bad because it forgives the debt of Silicon Valley bros rather than high school educated single mothers or whatever, which is stupid.

[@lethewaterkai]

This was pretty awesome, im siding a bit more with sam. I couldn't go to college due to understanding my family needed income from me. Even after opening a business a lot of my dollars were sent home rather than building my business. Also, the lack of safety net...

[@lethewaterkai]

@@radr819 thats why I said a bit more. Sam is more cognizant of the demand on the dollar of a individual without familial wealth. Even going so far as to point out those who can't complete their degree needing further assistance. Destiny has a better targeted approach, but doesn't account for as much disparity. Also, if it were free college it more than likely wouldn't be university. If you have familial wealth more than likely you won't be in cc.

[@Tom-jy3in]

@@radr819 the point is that even if largely people with a degree generally earn enough to make that degree worth, there is still a lot of poor people that failed to finish their degrees (far whatever reasons) or got degrees that turned out useless. And those people are economically shackled by their debt

[@DevinMacGregor]

@@radr819 Rich people take out student loans? I do not think people and this includes Destiny knows how this shit works. Rich people tend to either pay for it in cash or they take out parental loans that are attached to the parents assets such as a house they own. It is not straddled to the student. Those rich kids are not being straddle with debt not to mention Student Loans when we say this we are saying FEDERAL student loans not the shit tons of private student loans issue by banks. Those fall outside of the program.

[@alldetected3106]

I think Destiny's point was that with any degree, your potential lifetime financial growth will out perform a person with just a HS diploma. Yes, a family living paycheck-to-paycheck's potential to earn will not be the same as a family with generational wealth. Their "value of a dollar" will be treated differently on both sides. Both made some valid points.

[@austindecker7643]

College won’t ever be free because tax dollars you pay for not the government

[@xandertheblue]

Destiny thinks having a college degree means you'll be ok??? I'd argue a college degree couldn't mean less then ever, yet we pressure kids into these institutions anyway.

[@PeakedInterest]

Said pretty much the same thing elsewhere. Degrees aren't worth what they were 25 years ago. We've come full circle again now where employers are back to valuing experience over all.

[@mistercleantm5667]

Depends on what you want to do, a degree and school is necessary for pretty much all sciences, while stuff like art, it is not as needed

[@macyoung6634]

You’re misrepresenting what he stated. Ppl with a college degree have a higher earning potential than someone without one. His point is, if we are going to give a stimulus or print money to give away, giving that money to college grads does less to help with the wealth inequality in this country.

[@arronax3319]

@@macyoung6634 yeah but his whole argument is completely illogical bc it contradicts the proposition with having free college (literally the same resource being funded as the debt). If you're not one of those high earners ,goodbye, you just gambled your future credit well beyond anything possible with a credit card...

[@macyoung6634]

@@arronax3319 again, you misunderstood his position. There 1.5 trillion dollars in student loan debt. If tax payers have to foot the bill, the money could be spent somewhere else OR an income-based loan forgiveness. Than a blanket/everyone gets their loan payed off by the tax payers.

[@alexkats30]

Good opportunity for Destiny and Co to learn a couple of things. Please repeat!

[@carlosMartinez-fy4pz]

Why is this a race issue?

[@pylianpbappe8898]

Because that’s unfortunately what our society has focused on instead of actual economic and class issues

[@DanteRatto]

@@pylianpbappe8898 If you understood American history, even a little bit, you'd know that they are extremely linked.

[@johnnyvenus5435]

I've yet to watch the full video, but damn, Sam "won" this debate. Not for any points he made, but for that gosh darn crispy voice. It's so delightful to hear.

[@PVWNSVCR1F1C3]

Really? Not that i dislike sam but his constant "ughh"s get grating.

[@johnnyvenus5435]

@@PVWNSVCR1F1C3 Naaaaaaaah, not for me anyway. I love that crispy and gravely, and yet so smooth. And, that's *especially* during the "ughh"'s. Although I can get why it can be grating. Also ayyyyyyy, Jojolion, excited for the final issue next month?

[@tdns01]

Destiny is so out of touch about student loan debt. I can tell you that student loan debts are a huge drag on me financially. It’s the case with many people I know, too.

[@McClain3000]

What’s the point of listening to debates that try to refine the different arguments around student loan debt if you are just going to make a comment like this?

[@Jeppehartm]

Yeah me too. If it wasn't for my student loan debt I would've probably had bought my house a year earlier.

[@ishizukahikaru643]

Simply put. Who cares about student loans, colleges are scams anyway. By seeing them amount of dumb people the colleges are pumping out I say rid of them. If you decide to spent that much money on tuition thats your choice. If you decided to save your tuition and start hustling in the real world to get a head start thats your choice too.

[@drueger]

Idk man, my fiancee got 0 financial help and went to a local university. She worked thru her gen eds and payed loans as she went. Then got full to mostly full rides off scholarships and essays. I was poor and got my pell grant to pay for an asc at a local college

[@tdns01]

@@andersondalmeus1406 lol right

[@L6Jeremy]

Bro wtf everyone I know is in massive amounts of student loan debt. I went for two years and have 15K and it’s the biggest drag on my life and pretty much everyone I knows life

[@phoenixfire8226]

@Don i'm against canceling them and i live near the poverty line. when i graduated HS i didn't have 2 nickels to rub together and thus was unable to afford college. why should my tax dollars now go to subsidize college for those who were able to attend? is the govt. going to retroactively send people who couldn't afford college in the 90s and before to college, which is in practice no different than forgiving loans? and what of future generations? or is just this one generation the chosen ones who get a free ride on everyone else's buck?

[@avikaavasarala6041]

15k isn't that much considering that the average college graduate' salary of around 40k.

[@backer0285]

The amount of effort Destiny had to go through to miss every point must have been exhausting.

[@umedbehruz5512]

I like how rich people think they know about the life of poor people

[@Habeebea]

Right!? 😂

[@mikelY0]

If a poor person had student debt would erasing some or all of it help them?

[@AntiSVH]

So what? Are the ideas and arguments they’re giving discredited by their personal background? What is your point?

[@Habeebea]

@@AntiSVH The point is, rich people's ideas are largely ideological. They presuppose all their class war on workers as a starting point.

[@AntiSVH]

@@Habeebea Well, if there are two opposing classes that are looking for politics that go in their favor then there is bound to be a conflict, unless you want to argue that socio-economic classes don’t exist and /or people don’t vote in their best interest

[@kingdomgeasslover]

Bro we just need david pakman to get on here and we'll have the soc dem trifecta 😃

[@dick6670]

@Don he's repeatedly introduced himself as a soc Dem in multiple "panels" in the last 6 months

[@onetrueliberal7862]

@@WarningBFG-isHiring So true, i don't know why destiny wants to lump himself in with socdems. Socdems online are dumb populists bernie crowd which means they have half of their brain fried but probably not as delusional as full on commies.

[@winninglifeyo]

@@onetrueliberal7862 Better than pro corporate neoliberal scum

[@baconbitz1363]

I need everyone in this thread to rethink their life.

[@onetrueliberal7862]

@@winninglifeyo Corporations are based.

[@yle_coyote4178]

It's pretty brutal as a poor white person to sit here and listen to people prattle on about how important it is to increase the wealth of bLACK families only. Almost seems like a good way to to sow division and increase animosity from one race against another...

[@SmartDave60]

Why exactly wouldn’t Crowder schedule a debate w/ this guy? He appears perfectly reasonable and honest to me.

[@laz_hg3796]

For that very reason.

[@ollolool]

Yea I think you covered it

[@whatsinaname691]

1. The dude has made his career off of sensationalist journalism 2. He’s so disliked by his own staff one of them whistle-blew to Crowder that he was gonna show up in the H3H3 publicity stunt. 3. He has a million subs but averages 10k views a vid. (Though it went up after his little scam) 4. Watch his debate with Tim Pool 5. The mans made most of his remaining relevance specifically off of the fact that he’s never debated Crowder for years, so Crowder has a specific reason not to feed into his grift.

[@SmartDave60]

@@whatsinaname691 I’ve watched Sam Seder and Majority Report (MR) for maybe a decade. In the first half of MR Sam will interview a wide variety of guests and never in a sensationalist “shock jock” manner. The second half (the fun half they call it) they cover the news, admittedly from a left perspective but again nothing sensationalist. MR is a sober news show. Can you give me an example of some sensationalist journalism Sam has done?

[@24.7SMOKESHOW]

@@SmartDave60 SS is a shock jock, but crowder is the serious sober analysis we need to expose the grift of SS

[@smartonemozg]

It seems that disagreement is again not in the problem itself but in the universal/means-tested dichotomy. Sam's argument is basically that we want to help specific minorities, and by making policy universal we make it easier to pass. And it is not a huge problem that it would help some majority even more. Steven's argument is that a means-tested program is always better, and if you want to help these minorities, it would be more effective to do a more direct approach. But Sam and Steven deliberately avoided the political feasibility question, so they did not come to discuss disagreement itself, but some side points only.

[@fungdark8270]

The best help would be dropping the notion that most people need to go to college. It’s a terrible lie, far too many people perfect for lucrative, enjoyable trades are lied to and told they need to go to massively overpriced schools to get a shot degree they likely won’t use. Want to help minorities? Show them the actual opportunities they have, stop lying

[@poultriarchy]

Forgive me if I’m misunderstanding, did Sam not contest with political feasibility by talking in terms of what Biden would be able to unilaterally push for? Is your notion that they didn’t go in depth enough on this? Or is this something else entirely?

[@noldus264]

can't understand how Destiny agrees that higher education should be free, but does not agree with the position to remove the student loans for people who already got a higher education. I am from Norway and I can say from my experience having free education really helps the lower and middle class.

[@皇帝ScottYee]

Sam Seder should of brought in H3H3 to debate Destiny, and then Destiny would say: oh no H3H3, what a fucking nightmare.

[@leftboxanderson5361]

It’s so strange that destiny doesn’t see the middle class as working class. I make 80k on the east coast and i can’t stop working, despite the fact I’m middle class

[@gdmikester4302]

I think the distinction to be made is those who work a lot to build up their wealth/assets, and those who work a lot to pay off their expenses. That's why I presume destiny looks at you and someone who lives paycheck to paycheck differently.

[@leftboxanderson5361]

@@gdmikester4302 I’ts madness to me that my income places me in the middle class and at the same time i have debts and expenses just to exist to. He’s making a distinction between saving zero dollars a month to 2/300 hundred a month. It’s ridiculous

[@MsHumanOfTheDecade]

@Don as far as i know, the argument on that front is that workers are by their nature a cost to production and giving more input from a cost will only cause that cost to increase since humans by nature can never be satiated.

[@MsHumanOfTheDecade]

@@leftboxanderson5361 working paycheck to paycheck and having a meagre income is a big difference. although i dont know what metric leaves you in middle class, since to be middle class you do need to own some property.

[@leftboxanderson5361]

@@MsHumanOfTheDecade i never heard owning property is required to be middle class. I was always under the impression it was the cross section of people who earned an income above 2/3rds of the local median income

[@JonValtandtheEvilRobots]

Destiny’s maybe just too young to understand that wealth is more important than income. Debt relief is about wealth. He keeps using college stats to apply to student loan debt, not realizing perhaps that a lot of those people at the top never took out loans in the first place. Also click click KLANG lol is this typing and computer noise part of Destiny’s schtick?

[@Reese842]

The #1 impediment to buying a house is student loan debt. The real estate market came out and said student loan debt was a problem.

[@MMAGamblingTips]

30:43 “Is my man winning?” How Twitch “Debate bro-sphere” sees a nuanced conversation between two good faith interlocutors. It’s not about a W all the time. Still better than the troll at 33:07 who is undoubtably a Crowder stan.

[@lindenstromberg6859]

Soviet Crowderstan

[@Fluxty]

You see this pretty much everywhere. It's all about winning rather than what's actually right in basically every area of human interaction.

[@MMAGamblingTips]

@@lindenstromberg6859 right? Sad.

[@dontreply8346]

This was a good debate! Please do it again with him! You both went sufficiently in-depth in making your points. This is how debates actually move policy and public opinion forward.

[@cjcman87]

Destiny suggested black student loan forgiveness. How about SSI black edition? Means testing especially along racial lines can be divisive and can form cracks. Having universal programs helps all but some more than others.

[@DerryckStorm]

Yeah, basically do programs that help the poorest most and you will also help Black families, while helping poor whites too, short circuiting racist arguments.

[@FuddlyDud]

Unfortunately, these forgiveness program talk is seriously ignoring the root problem. :( ALL this money should go into overhauling public education!! It’s failing to properly educate the population and requiring college due to how lacking students are with critical thinking! We are extending the childhood of young people when they should be ready for the world by 18! :/ We should get rid of summer vacation, lower school time hours to make it doable, promote working early, teach budgeting, nutrition, cooking, interpersonal skills, etc., and pull the Swedish system and combine it with the mindset that produces child prodigies (constant reading, learning, critical thinking, etc. at super young ages)! I’d 100% agree on funding this to better our society, yet we just talk about supporting an awful, prolonged education system that wastes hundreds of thousands of dollars per student! :/

[@calastyphon4081]

Degree doesn't equal money lol. You still have to actually get the job in the field. Hopefully it's not an entry level where your income won't be the amount of the lawyer example Destiny kept using.

[@Borrelaas]

degree does actually statistically correlate to money (earnings) lol

[@Borrelaas]

@Don That is not true. Income for college educated workers has gone up in the US. Cost of housing is another topic, and that is only true if you look at the densely populated metropolitan centers. This is a global phenomenon, the more people who want to live in one single location, the more expensive housing gets. The difference between the millennials and their parents are that far less from the other generation needed to live on manhattan College costs on the other hand i would agree with, they are way too high and one factor there is how bloated the administration side of colleges has become

[@Borrelaas]

@Don I think you are completely out of touch with reality and you have no sense of economy. Housing prices outside the huge metropolitan cities are not out of controll. But since you probably are economically illiterate and cant understand the simple concept of supply and demand, once alot of people want to live on a limited plot of land, prices rise.. Yeah i know! Its incredible.. You think that this concept related to urbanization and rising demand without rising supply does not explan rising housing prices then come up with a better explanation instead of some halfwit comparison that makes no sense and is in no way related to the argument.

[@calastyphon4081]

@@Borrelaas Destiny kept using "potential income" and only focusing on graduates instead of where Sam was inclusive with all those who took on student loan debt. In both of these instances Destiny was trying to mislead the conversation. Just because you have a diploma does not mean you immediately make a lawyer or doctor's income like Destiny was using. He also kept saying 20k is a large amount of money in terms of income inequality and used it to say a programmer would have a nice apartment and 2 cars. I guess making 5 to 10 times what the starting salary of a programmer might make you a little out of touch when it comes to what others can afford.

[@Borrelaas]

​@@calastyphon4081 you are misleading the conversation by saying "Just because you have a diploma does not mean you immediately make a lawyer or doctor's income like Destiny was using." Yet you accuse Destiny of misleading? Can you see the hypocracy in your statement? He never said anything remotely like that, he was talking about future earning potensial, making a lawyer or doctor income should not be the benchmark in order to judge someones ability to pay for their education. I am not sure i understand your last point, are you saying 20k being the annual salary, or 20k being a annual salary difference between two groups? Can you post a timestamp to where he makes this strange claim?

[@gitzcrazyboy]

Destiny took this seriously, his hair was less greasy

[@ARealPersonNotABot]

*o u t p a c e d*

[@ksilva2848]

_i n t e l l e c t u a l l y_

[@sussybaka1095]

Destiny’s words literally sound like he’s rapping

[@maxsteel32]

Being in favor of free college for all but not student loan forgiveness is like wanting to legalize weed but not releasing and expunging the records of people who are in prison for simple possession and/or other nonviolent weed offenses.

[@FuddlyDud]

Unfortunately, both argue over a mostly meaningless point. :( ALL this money should go into overhauling public education!! It’s failing to properly educate the population and requiring college due to how lacking students are with critical thinking! We are extending the childhood of young people when they should be ready for the world by 18! :/ We should get rid of summer vacation, lower school time hours to make it doable, promote working early, teach budgeting, nutrition, cooking, interpersonal skills, etc., and pull the Swedish system and combine it with the mindset that produces child prodigies (constant reading, learning, critical thinking, etc. at super young ages)! I’d 100% agree on funding this to better our society, yet we just talk about supporting an awful, prolonged education system that wastes hundreds of thousands of dollars per student! :/

[@MrMasterDebate]

@@FuddlyDud we can’t just shove All Money into one thing. That sounds good on paper but it really isn’t a great solution. Our Entire Budget will never be education. Therefore, we can max out the portion that would be for education and take the forgiveness funds (which is already paid for) from somewhere else

[@FuddlyDud]

@@MrMasterDebate Of course, I never called for tons of money being spent on education. Hell, Sweden spends less education on us and they do WAY better than we do. :P Why not focus more time on rooting out the poisoned root first before trimming the rotten leaves? Again, I am more than happy to discuss debt...but after we solve the more pressing issue that will lead to millions more people in even worse situations. I really want to help the most people, not help much less while letting the poisoned root growing more rotten leaves. :/

[@chunguslongjon9666]

Love destiny but his fan base treats it like “debate boxing” rather than listening to the content.

[@tehkitchen]

destiny conceded the entire argument without realizing it around 50 min in and then starts kind of talking in circles with himself. good conversation, little frustrating that the point sam is making is really obvious but is still missed.

[@drockopotamus1]

He didn't concede, though. He's tackling the actual issue without resorting to skin color. Sam can chirp about wealth inequality around race all day, but it's not going to land on tangible policy if he can't find a solution that also backs poor people in other groups. I would say Sam is actually the one talking circles with himself. He keeps making the same point 1) without data and 2) without a clear vision of the solution.

[@TheMessengerMichael]

I think Seder is bad faith, he aligns and argues for what he wants, which is semi-normal, however he is totally ok with bending things to the way he wants. He is pretentious and acts as tho anyone who isn't black is just fine and can move back to mom or dad. Many many people of every race have no one to fall back on. I really don't like his "believe me" snarky attitude. No money no property, I have no parents left since my 20s and worked my ass off, at 38 I own my own home and have built a family. Seder makes a ton of assumptions from studies rather than actually seeking to understand.

[@brandonellis8111]

100 percent correct

[@svltches4477]

Destinys chat is disgusting

[@onetrueliberal7862]

@@marcusuno5205 Better than the braindead socialists and populists brigading the comment sections.

[@Jawhet]

I don't really watch Destiny anymore, but seeing this instance of a debate with someone of Sam Seder's quality was something I couldn't resist. Really great discussion here! I am glad to witness a productive and context-driven conversation; rather then the usual stuff.

[@mikelY0]

Also, Sam's debates with libertarians over the years (even those who just called in) are quite entertaining

[@famalam943]

Sam, quality? lol

[@Jawhet]

@Famalam Yes. Flat out; if you can't recognize the notable positive contributions/impact that someone has had on an overall movement (if you claim to support it), perhaps because they don't portray the image of your ideal representation, then you will never get anywhere. Sam Seder may not always be the most entertaining host, but he's a well-respected and seasoned resource. His contributions were infinitely better than just another fresh-faced grifter harboring a main focus of farming clout and clicks.

[@zekeybeats2927]

Let’s be real. Destiny is an intelligent guy, but Sam is a political encyclopedia. If destiny gets to steer, all we end up watching is the level of dedication Sam has put into honest, fact based, human centered opinions

[@famalam943]

@@Jawhet he’s dismissive and condescending. Never seen him have an honest conversation with people he disagrees with, he just throws a hissy fit. He’s one of the worst people for leftist talking head. The whole MR crew have the same attitude. Just awful.

[@rsgomlftw]

holy fuck that chat is unreadable

[@Pvt.punchy]

Sam Seder makes his points so slowly lmao all love

[@thatsinteresting3415]

I have college debt and no degree. I'm so glad I have this debt and no money making potential.

[@koalasquare2145]

SAM SEDER WHAT A FUCKING NIGHTMARE

[@chrispysaid]

I wish Destiny would approach every debate with this kind of energy. He's usually SUCH a dismissive, arrogant, overly critical, defamatory jerk in the majority of the debates I've seen him participate in.

[@describedby_3953]

Oh would love to see one of those debate, is there any of those sort of debates you mentioned where he loses?

[@describedby_3953]

@Don oh no I didn’t even know the guy until this, I just would like to see him being arrogant and losing, think would be kinda funny, which is why I was asking for a link to one of those videos, so yeah, kind of missed a step there.

[@tckgkljgfl7958]

@@describedby_3953 i do like mr bonell, but most of these so called debates are unwatchable, since the debatees he engages with are oftentimes people of Jesse Lee Peterson caliber

[@Marqrk]

Steven? That's the name of a person for whom Sam Seder is a nightmare.

[@Pruemedia]

This argument that both - degrees are becoming more necessary and that those with degrees will increase their earning potential over their lifetime is circular… it’s basically just saying money / earning potential comes from a new requirement to invest in education. Okay… Yet, that has zero to do with the impacts and implications of how exponentially-growing negative wealth (loans and credit) at the beginning of someone’s career have on their accrual of wealth over time. It takes more than 15 years, on average, for student loans to be repaid today. That’s 15+ years of lowered ability to invest or acquire assets; which is unlike any credit burden faced by generations in the history of the country.

[@noahthenormal]

I don't get why Destiny seems to think it's almost an either or situation with student debt relief and free/subsidized college. As Sam mentioned, a lot of the balance that would be forgiven is interest, and a decent chunk of it will never be paid back anyway, so the actual cost is a good bit less than the current balance. And from my understanding, student loan forgiveness could be done via executive order, so it doesn't really cost political capital either

[@noahthenormal]

@Don Crazy thing is, people will use a variant of that point as an argument against free/subsidized college. "Why should they get to go to school for free when I had to pay for it?!" Like, good point, you selfish prick. Let's not try to improve things for future generations

[@loukasfrantzolas6494]

Because there is not an unlimited amount of money, it's better spent on poor people first, at the end of they day it doesn't matter how much you desagrogate the data, you are giving a massive stimulus to the highest earners in America. If it was just about helping black people you could do that with other ways.

[@jesspavlichenko5745]

@@loukasfrantzolas6494 But he isn't just about helping black people. He wants to help everyone. Sam is pointing out that the people who are borrowing already didn't have the household wealth to pay for tuition in the first place, so by forgiving their debt you are in fact minimizing the disparity between the wealthy and the poor because the people who were borrowing, who have to borrow because they are poor, have now had that debt forgiven resulting in instant mobility irrespective of which class they originally started in. The family with wealth is, say, 75k behind due to paying the tuition of the students in the household whereas the poor family who also had that 75k + interest due to the cost of borrowing now no longer have that obligation

[@noahthenormal]

@@loukasfrantzolas6494 You're really not addressing much of what I said tho. This wouldn't really be a 'massive' stimulus. We're looking at a cost of ~$1T at the end of the day and not much in terms of political capital because it can be done via executive action. Sure, this may not be the most optimal method possible in terms of only helping the lowest wage earners, but it still would help a lot of people who aren't making much. If we're trying to do free/subsidized college, it seems kinda fucked to say "bad timing, shoulda been born a little later" to kids who just ended up with massive debt, and we could tie the amount of debt relief to income or use some other method of means testing

[@ksilva2848]

What's up with these thumbnails having both people doing the same thing?

[@tomanyvidegames]

Flexing their debate tactics

[@Greyz174]

its the duality of man

[@MrMortombachman]

Too much focus on race from Sam

[@jrod8487]

Destiny is confused and does not live in reality. For instance, multi generational wealth means so much, a first generation college student would have to take out loan because we are assuming their parents are not college graduates. Which means that they may be more likely to attend a for profit school which has high tuition. Then the likely they do not graduate is much likely. If they do graduate they have so much debit they would need to enter the work force immediately. The income they make would not be enough for living deified life.

[@TheCringinator]

Take a shot every time Destiny says “I feel like...” You’ll be dead 20 minutes in

[@nandfednu3502]

I had to stop watching because this 'debate' was so much about his 'feelings' and, like facts and logic, i talk too fast to care about that

[@TheCringinator]

Wtf are you talking about lol

[@LiveWatched]

That's the biggest problem with destinys debates he doesn't come with any studies or just vaguely references things while largely arguing with feelings