Destiny & Peter Boghossian CALL OUT Virtue Signaling, Grifting, Echo Chambers

Peter Boghossian and Steven Bonnell II, better known as "Destiny," have an intense 90-minute discussion in which the two explore social media’s intensification of political divides, virtue signaling, and what to do about toxic discourse. Peter invites Destiny to cross examine his beliefs, which Destiny does with gusto. They also discuss people's reluctance to engage opposing views, "grifting," Hungary, virtue signaling, echo chambers, epistemology, and more!
Destiny is a live-streamer, gamer, and political commentator.
Destiny's channel: / @destiny
Destiny on X: / theomniliberal
0:00 Intro
1:14 Left & Right not talking to each other
8:40 Ideological groupthink
17:19 Grifting
26:50 Echo chambers
36:03 Ideological commitment/ideological diversity
50:52 Understanding both sides
55:07 Epistemic humility
1:13:57 Importance of evidence-based discourse
⸺SUPPORT MY WORK⸺
Newsletter | boghossian.substack.com/
Donate | www.nationalprogressalliance....
⸺LINKS⸺
Podcast: "Conversations with Peter Boghossian": pod.link/1650150225
Website | peterboghossian.com/
National Progress Alliance | www.nationalprogressalliance....
Resignation Letter | peterboghossian.com/my-resign...
⸺BOOKS⸺
“How To Have Impossible Conversations” | www.amazon.com/dp/0738285323/...
“A Manual For Creating Atheists” | www.amazon.com/Manual-Creatin...
⸺SOCIAL MEDIA⸺
Twitter | / peterboghossian
Instagram | / peter.boghossian
TikTok | / peterboghossian
All Socials | linktr.ee/peterboghossian
__________
#civildiscourse #destiny #stevenbonnell #peterboghossian

[@drpeterboghossian]

If you missed the last Conversations with Peter Boghossian episode with Katharine Birbalsingh, watch it next: kzbin.info/www/bejne/aaXEiXljmM9_eMU

[@carolynbrightfield8911]

As a retired chalkie, she's right on the money (this is a metaphor, not literal, for those lefties who think all of the rich language heritage of English is offensive, now proceed in dye anne file ... away from here ...). Just got a bleep from the Why Tee so had to change spelling of second metaphor ... oh well ... tuck your shirts in guys, that's Cathrin's (deliberately misspelled for The tube) new boundary for rebellious teenagers, and, guess what, 70 years of seeing our society devolve, she's right. No such thing as a teenager before 1950s, you jumped straight into work and parenthood. No nice contraception, and then the capitalists discovered the adolescent market, why not extend the new market for 10 years? More profits, yum. Then ? More profits in the newly invented and ever expanding reproductive industry (1980s ) Sweet. Now the big pharma old age industry (death fear). Nice. Thanks KS. You're saving a few,

[@ncorp2668]

Peter, what you said about Dansky and the disagreement by RF's that followed was an interesting recontextualizing of what happened. You brought on a lady whose focus is fighting to keep single "s" areas of life, one of many reasons being for protection. You brought up self defense and lingered on it like you were trying to suggest this was more imperative than your guest's approach. Many people reacted to that, including RF's...but mostly, just W in general, telling you how/why they don't find your alternative to be more feasible than Dansky's focus and took your line of questioning as negative (which now in hindsight after hearing you talk about it here, it sounds like it was). It's funny to me you framed it like you were on the receiving end of some sort of ideologically rigid mob, when in actuality, you intentionally instigated a disagreement from out in the weeds that wasn't even ideologically based. As Dansky and everyone else said, they just don't see your suggestion as a better option than mitigating risks where you avoid the potential from the beginning. It had nothing to do with a belief system. Why don't you invite her back on to talk about it further, rather than passive aggressively talk about your past guests in other interviews?

[@P4GYY]

Unfortunate you guys didn't go harder into the institutional capture leading to political de-platforming (twitter-files) disagreement, Yo peter, Destiny loves disagreements, you can likely bait Destiny into further discussions by simply disagreeing. Big destiny fan but I believe he's incorrect on this topic.

[@willofman]

Ok let me give my two 2cents to you on why people will say that you are a grifter for taking money from the Hungarian government. Potentially (I haven't seen your stuff and only go on the 40 mins I watched out of this interview) because you do only the job and don't ask the hard political questions - those questions that could potentially fire you for even asking them. Or alternatively you don't express criticism towards the Hungarian government on your own time. In your channel description you are saying you want to push back illiberalism yet don't push back against the Hungarian government? Taking money is one thing, but for that money you should be criticizing your employer all the time since they are basically feudalist illiberals. Sincerely, a Hungarian liberal. PS It could be that you are naive about Hungarian politics in the best of cases, in which case I have to tell you it's nothing like American politics. In America even a Republican is a liberal, but in Hungary on the right (on the side of the government) you basically have conservatives, nationalists, light fascists and monarchists mixed in (there is a separate party for the really fascist people but they usually support the government). Supposedly the government is christian and nationalist but in reality they have no fixed ideology and do whatever they can to create a feudal system based on fealty. Yes, there is a separation between what they say they believe and what they actually do. Orbán even has a speech where he says: "don't pay attention to what I say, but to what I do". So he's telling everyone he will be lying a lot. I you have seen Tucker's interview with Orbán then there for example he says he doesn't support Ukraine because they can't win and he wants peace. He also often says it's not Hungary's war. What he means is that the Hungarian economy is highly dependent on cheap Russian gas and gasoline and we need peace so the economy can work better and he can stay in power. Also Hungary has several government projects contracted to Russia like the nuclear energy plant's second block. These can't be easily replaced so he's been trying to prevent and delay aid for Ukraine so they lose and the war ends. To be honest I don't think anyone seriously thinks Ukraine can win a full victory, however Ukraine is the victim here, and as long as they are willing to fight against Russia - which is a security threat to Europe as well because of how they operate - we should be supporting Ukriane as long as they are willing to fight. If we let Russia think Europe is easily messed with, they might be crazy enough to attack NATO, and we can't have that.

[@youremail3285]

Hi Dr. Boghossian, I loved this conversation because it's something I've been quarreling with as well. here is a good exercise I just came up for you two. Happy to work with you and your team on creating a value model for this. The part where you are asking Destiny to play a game of "Who's Grifting?" I came up with a grading scale that features 2 planes: active communication and non-active communication, with either side featuring scales of 1-5 or 1-10 depending on how many KPI's you'd like. For example, when Destiny brought up the.... hypothetical question's that are un-answerable by the other side would create a 3rd plane called Scheme. Active: 1 - 5 Non-Active: 1 - 5 Scheme: Ad-hominem's, virtue signalling, avoidance etc. Insert other actions of debate manipulation. You could even put warning hashtags at the bottom of the clip, similar to the old Explicit Lyrics warning stickers on CD's. You could even build polls out of this grading structure. Btw, Protos for life.

[@Fyodor840]

This is truly disappointing. Everyone in this comment section is just trashing him due in part that he’s just a man willing to have discussions with people he hardly agrees with which is so needed today.

[@chadillac2472]

Why waste time on Destiny when so many have already invested much time on other discussions listenng to him and have decided for various reasons not to waste precious time on him.

[@clarkkent6500]

@@chadillac2472the beginning of this video is in why people won’t talk to each other and that’s exactly what Peter is doing……. 🤦🏻‍♂️

Incorrect. It's that all this has been said a trillion times prior, by everyone, everywhere. It's just chatter at this point.

[@_uncredited]

I agree with the sentiment, but a lot of channels are pushing Destiny and I'm tired of it, because when I go to his channel to find out more about him he's normally insulting/trashing anybody he's debated with, or arguing with some other streamer about who's the biggest r-slur. His content is vile, but he acts like a good faith sweetheart on shows like this.

[@000mud000]

​@_uncredited thats fair

[@Badmemphisurbanism]

I’m as conservative as they come and love destiny. Why? Because he’s trying to figure things out. I probably disagree with 40% of what he says but he’s no fake.

[@crisjr6478]

Same. Plus i love fucking with the goobs in his chat lol. There are a few topics hes almost dilutional on but i still dig him.

[@jadehidalgo3437]

Same Well I wouldn’t say I’m as conservative as they come- in fact I know I’m not.. I’m more center with a lot of conservative values. But yes- I agree.. and I’ve always said that I don’t agree with everything he says but I like him

[@Gordo525]

This is good. You could disagree with 100% of what he says and it would still be okay since you understand the essence of what he's trying to do. It's people that dislike him because of false reasons that are the issue. I see the same criticisms levied against him in YT comment sections all the time based purely on absolutely nothing, so it's good to see that not everyone is completely delusional (although I'm pretty sure that most of his YT comment critics are just Palestine simps and Hasan fans).

[@c.chinaski3156]

40%... Then you're definitely not "as conservative as they come".. I like destiny too, mainly for the fact that he's willing to have conversations with people he disagrees with, & does make some well thought out points occasionally. But I couldn't be more opposed to nearly all of his dearly held beliefs.

[@Squibtorious]

​@@c.chinaski3156 what are some of those dearly held beliefs? Just curious ✌🏻

[@alexthomas5633]

I genuinely feel like this conversation would have been better if it was longer and went deeper into topics on which you disagree. Lead by example on productive conversations across ideological divides. Please bring Destiny on again in the future.

[@ew8311]

Destiny is surface deep.

[@Lynzula]

Please no. Twitch streamers are deeply unserious people.

[@shooshooshooshooshooter]

@@Lynzula good thing Destiny doesn’t stream on Twitch :)

[@archbasilisk6372]

+1

[@drpeterboghossian]

Absolutely. He’s a friend of the show and he’s always welcome.

[@yelnatsch517]

This is by far my favorite discussion between Destiny and another content creator. Love the humility and intellectual curiosity from Peter to seek the higher truth paired with the pragmatic realism from Destiny.

[@torunaga1927]

So you're happy destiney didn't act like he does in his own streams?

[@mephisto8884]

@@torunaga1927 Have you ever even watched a stream? what a stupid thing to say

[@odddak]

💯

[@Nadia_Knows]

Never seen Destiny so relaxed talking to anyone before.

[@aleksandracomolaola]

That is what I was hoping for to see him talking to Peter, who is not a gotcha dude. I think that Steven is a bright dude and he really tries his best to understand things, there is honesty in his stands, even If I may not agree with him. Most of what I have seen lately of his convos were hostile, or intentionaly offensive (Finkeldick), so this one is such a pleasure to watch. Steve on his part also needs to relax, but Peter here created a gret environment as he mostly does.

[@GlobalWave1]

He seemed very relaxed and almost tame against him talking to Shapiro.

[@trytobedied]

You can watch his recent discussion with JJ on bridges, he's similarly relaxed

[@CharleeCharlie]

This is why we shouldnt have oppinions on people based on tiktok clips

[@jathhilt]

​@aleksandracomolaola he tends to match the energy of who he's talking to.

[@DannyIMCF]

This guy’s name is Destiny? I only knew him as Mr. Tortellini.

[@toab]

"Mista Borelli"

[@antalpoti]

No, her name is Mrs. Benelli.

[@spyral00]

They are called Mr Panini I believe

[@chux4w]

Mr Destiny Boneri.

[@GoogleIsRuiningEverything]

Mista cannellini

[@jayw6034]

This convo is a fine wine in a world of lone star and bud light. I just realized that with 10 mins left in this video, I haven't felt the need to speed it up to 2x at any point and have been enjoying every second.

[@Bluesmata]

Did you two do some street epistemology together? Looking forward to seeing you guys do that!

[@danamoose1234]

Yes please!!!

[@SamiNami]

I heard rumours that they did.

[@zachmorgan6982]

That would be dope....n Steve is ALREADY ON THE SPECTRUM

[@SAPERE69]

Do y’all follow any content that’s labeled street epistemology besides Peter’s “Spectrum Street Epistemology”?

[@jaber5345]

Destiny said they did

[@jasper_of_puppets]

30:08 Ironically, Briahna Joy Gray's podcast - where she and Finklestein trashed Destiny - is called _Bad Faith._

[@dyhidrogenmonoxide]

That would be “fittingly“ or “poetically”. It would be ironic if it were called “good faith”

[@tiggerbane4325]

@@dyhidrogenmonoxide It's ironic because all the people who come on act in good faith on it.

[@jocksharerock7318]

⁠@@tiggerbane4325yes, they’re “good faith” laughing at Destiny like mean girls. They were having a diss session on the guy without even showing where he was wrong. BJG was insufferable. In general they’re only good faith by omitting aspects of issues, which makes it…

[@jasper_of_puppets]

@@dyhidrogenmonoxide Yes, the use of the word _ironic_ is debated and your comment would be correct, but I was alluding more to the fact that Peter unwittingly called out BJG's podcast by name.

[@jasper_of_puppets]

@@tiggerbane4325 I definitely don't agree that _all_ people who go on her podcast act in good faith, but some of them do. She's had on people like Glenn Loury and Coleman Hughes - two people who I believe are nearly always acting in good faith. Briahna herself on the other hand.... ughhhh.

[@dbcitizen4355]

Guys, for the love of God, please put all your "Destiny is a woman's name/nice to see Peter talking to a strong, independent black woman" comments in this thread.

[@anantayanamandra3491]

He's a 35 year old man!

[@fringting]

​@@anantayanamandra3491 stop spreading misinformation

[@Alecsand3r]

He can't ban us here, but i think he can crossban

[@realMaverickBuckley]

I've gone through the 4 stages of the 'Destiny is a woman's name'. The chuckle The guilt at my immaturity The 'I mean .. I guess so' The big laugh. The 'I'm too good for your memes of Stevie's username

[@claudeyaz]

Yeah people need to understand that that kind of stuff goes on constantly in his chat it's not like it's out of the ordinary bullying lol

[@integratedfrost435]

Did not expect the Starcraft bit outta this conversation - great talk from both of you!

[@jasper_of_puppets]

My life for Aiur!

[@robf5230]

@@jasper_of_puppets so you support the genocide of Terran worlds? Despicable. 1v1 me bro

[@MrTyler918273]

Sadly he didn't have an opportunity to bring up the baneling analogy.

[@integratedfrost435]

@robf5230 gimme a sec I have to construct additional pylons

[@Voornoek]

@@jasper_of_puppets entaro adun

[@chrisarvai9519]

Peter this is FANTASTIC. Thank you so much for engaging like this with Destiny. I believe this can be huge for SE. Great work.

[@pseudonymous8702]

Peterson did it first

[@SAPERE69]

How can something like this be “huge” for “SE”?

[@chrisarvai9519]

@@SAPERE69 It could bring more people to it. Destiny has a large audience that may be unaware of SE.

[@SAPERE69]

@@chrisarvai9519 oh, are you suggesting that Peter’s content could familiarize people with the concept of street epistemology?

[@chrisarvai9519]

@@SAPERE69 Yes, for sure. A lot of Destiny's popular content is debating, I figure if some of those people watch this talk they might get introduced to the idea of street epistemology through Peter. I think if more people knew about street epistemology it would make the world a bit better. Debate has its place but in terms of forming beliefs SE is better. SE also lets you examine you beliefs, which debate sorely lacks.

[@viniciusmoura9105]

Lol "Aka Mr. Borelli". That think really turned into a meme.

[@Scarletpimpanel73]

That's Bonelli to you...

[@SonOfMorning]

Sir, its Morelli!

[@MustardSkaven]

Mister Vinicelli! Please! Stop making fun of this Italian man.

[@leadfaun]

It’s great because it’s a meme used by both sides of the argument.

[@SonOfMorning]

@@leadfaun ??both sides of what argument?

[@FightNChickN]

12:35 when you awkwardly come out to your dad

[@loonasfirstdisciple6730]

trueeeee i was about to comment this

[@rohamgoudarznia7326]

“You’re straight right?” “Yeah, kin- yeah” “Huh?” “Yeah”😅

[@resurrectingexcellence]

😂

[@CrungySpungus]

It’s funny watching his gears turn to decide if it’s worth correcting for a solid half second 😂

[@GiltleyRage]

What's weird is that Destiny identifies as bi, and yet he would struggle a litte bit and say he's straight xD

[@matejoh]

Good conversation, guys. I appreciated the mutual respect.

[@drpeterboghossian]

Thank you

[@drpeterboghossian]

Thank you!

[@jackiechilds8047]

Destiny snorted an 8ball to keep up. Terrible conversation

[@brockfg]

​@@jackiechilds8047you must have needed an 8ball to keep up if that is your take

[@bazooka712]

@@jackiechilds8047 is this some projection about the 8ball you've shoved up there? ;)

[@Burnt69]

YESSSS, this is the crossover I've been waiting on... Keep up the great work, everyone!!

[@murderparker7968]

You know that Boghossian and Destiny have interacted publicly on at least two prior occasions. The videos are on KZbin.

[@drpeterboghossian]

Thank you!

[@LeviNotik]

Destiny's example of testing for consistency with someone who is, understandably, skeptical about any claims made by the US government, but then uncritically accepts anything put out by RT is such a great example.

[@tarkus9820]

Whats rt?

[@nakedsquirtle]

RT stands for Russia Today which is basically a Russian Propaganda Media network that had many shows running in the West

[@evanbyrne7020]

​@@tarkus9820 Russia Today

[@TheDrTelos]

​@tarkus9820 RT = Russia Today. It's a Russian Government sponsored media organization similar to PBS in the US, BBC in UK, CBS in Canada, etc...

[@Offsetmodesty]

Russia today is not state sponsored media. It is state run media. There is a very large and clear difference.

[@JustinSwell]

Understanding and articulating are two different skills. 24:25 Destiny should understand this because he is friends with XQC.

[@DaniDaWolf]

Maybe you were joking but xqc actually can understand and learn stuff quite well and fast. He just mumbles and always hyper 😅

[@JustinSwell]

@@DaniDaWolf that's my point. XQC understands but doesn't articulate his position very well. In fact you can see Destiny helping him articulate his position whenever they talk.

[@colamity_5000]

Bro, they aren't different for XQC he's bad at both.

[@TheLongestConfidence]

Tbf to Mr. Borelli, he doesn't understand much of anything.

[@frankmarano1118]

​@@DaniDaWolf bruh how did you not know they were specifically talking about xqcs articulation? Lol we just had that destiny & sneako debate with xqc where it was almost impossible to understand him at some parts

[@theinnerlight8016]

"I dread the day when everyone on this ship agrees with me." - Captain Kathryn Janeway

[@be8420]

This convo was StarCraft vs StarCraft 2 IRL

[@TevelDrinkwater]

I know I'm old, I played so much more SC1 than 2. En taru adun!

[@Maelthorn1337]

Everyone knows that SC Brood War is far superior.

[@deniselewis8108]

Awesome discussion. I struggle greatly being able to discuss things rationally. I get too emotional but also know I’m not a good defender of what I believe. Although I have defensible beliefs, I’m lacking ability to verbalize and have rational conversations. I so want to change that. I appreciate the example of how this can go and just inspire. I really benefitted from this.

[@alanjones5639]

I often find debates too much like self-righteous either/or thinking. I'm happy to be responsible for the meanings I make, learning new things and changing my meanings and beliefs as my experiences warrant. Although I'm happy to explain my beliefs, I've no need to think them "right" or justify them to others. I try to be reasonable, and so am cautious in my use of unemotional rationality.

[@GamesAreForKids91]

I think it's important to remember that as long as your beliefs are rooted in truth that you don't have to explain yourself to anyone. A good way to test if it's true is to have a conversation (or debate if you both feel up to it) with someone who is opposed to your views about why they feel the way they do and see if it changes what you believe. If you're not good at thinking on the fly then just let them explain their side and reflect later if it changed the worldview you had.

[@Maelthorn1337]

That's really introspective and honest of you, cool. Very rare for someone to be willing to closely examine their shortcomings like that.

[@rrrrr.55555]

Wow I also struggle with verbalizing the reason of my beliefs, lately I've beginning to think the better way to improve that is to force myself to think of counters to my beliefs and how to defend present my beliefs with evidence against someone who might have a bias against them.

[@Chris-il5im]

Good convo, thanks for having Steven on. Can't wait for the street epistemology you guys did together.

[@joitus]

Really happy to see you two converse!! 👏🏻

[@misternevermiss12]

Great conversation guys!

[@tonystewart7624]

Great conversation guys. There wasn't any debating and in a way that was refreshing. Thank you.

[@drpeterboghossian]

Thanks

[@Traderbear]

I think the word grifting isn’t about one’s beliefs. It’s a scam, charlatan kind of vibe. Kendi is 💯, neither of you are grifting.

[@Accountdeactivated_1986]

I think people are suspect of Destiny right now because he’s making the rounds having discourse with people that the left have decided are “alt right.” So they call him a “grifter” for not holding their beliefs of “no platforming” anyone they disagree with on anything. Then Peter also becomes a “grifter” for reaching across the aisle as well. I agree Kendi is an actual grifter.

[@jsharp9735]

It no different that muhamud hijab grifting off the credibility of Jordan Peterson. They put on their best behavior for this audience while this audience knows nothing about how he REALLY is.

[@lonewaer]

@@Accountdeactivated_1986 I mean it's been a while that the nutjobs on the left have turned on him for not being completely with The Gospel (the trans discourse).

[@SAPERE69]

It was a bit cute how desperate Peter was in this video to get Destiny to say he’s not a grifter lol

[@dandrechesterfield5411]

@@Accountdeactivated_1986 I think people call him a grifter simply because he makes a living from arguing politics

[@Traderbear]

I always have to set playback speed slower when I watch Destiny 😊 looking forward to this

[@ab-hx8qe]

Accept the warm embrace of the 2x speed lol

[@Limuru1]

Steven is wonderful. Thank you for having him on, Peter! I bought How to Have Impossible Conversations a while back, but I’ve not read it.

[@occamsblunderbuss7920]

If you think Steven is wonderful then you don't know Steven. He grooms young girls, has sex with men, and is a far left liar who pushes Dumbocrat propaganda.

[@ryzikx]

cringe rimiru fan 🤮🤮🤮

[@Limuru1]

@@ryzikx to be cringe is to be free brother

[@danamoose1234]

Watching now but love these guys! Thanks both for talking!

[@drpeterboghossian]

Thanks

[@akrobatas2316]

good conversation i love that table in that light it looks so good.

[@Alex.Holland]

great talk, really fun

[@lindontilson471]

Great chat. Two of my favourite people in terms of debating and good faith conversation

[@drpeterboghossian]

Thanks

[@Gallowglass7]

Great Convo! Love you guys

[@drpeterboghossian]

Thank you!

[@The_Remnant86]

This was a really excellent conversation. I hope you guys work together more fro here on out.

[@drpeterboghossian]

Thank you!

[@superandymurray]

entire video was great, watched it 3 times so far

[@scdon123]

Did you watch it on 100x speed? haha

[@superandymurray]

@@scdon123 only bec I don't have a 200x speed button. Gotta go fast

[@Liberaven]

tf? haha

[@user-ov6kj1li3j]

Gurl calm down

[@MrMctastics]

I watch this every time I get a vaccine

[@fearstreak7462]

I deeply enjoyed this conversation, your back and forth with destiny hinted at alot of the meat the both of you have in how each of you uniquely arrived at your positions. People are saying you're both too agreeable with each other, but this didn't feel like Ben Shapiro and Destiny on Lex Friedman, it felt very candid and im sure if you both picked a topic to really dig deep into, then the wealth of knowledge and experience the two of you have will really show. I'm looking forward to looking through more of your content and I hope you'll pursue future, intriguing discussions.

[@the_darkness2156]

Great conversation

[@local-admin]

Happy to see this.

[@gonzalog8547]

Really good video! I enjoy listening to different perspectives outside my own. It's important to learn how to Agree to disagree on things & move on the the next discussion. Never take it personal because it's very important to maintain good relationships with people u disagree with. Avoid people who are unreasonable that engage in bad faith.

[@hunterdavis2896]

Really enjoyed this conversation

[@baseplayer21]

Been watching you both for years, so glad to see this conversation happening.

[@drpeterboghossian]

Thank you!

[@mitloppas3559]

Very cool convo

[@metacafekid]

So glad you had Mr Borelli on

[@punters.thompson2247]

I’ll have the interrogation of beliefs please. It’s my favorite item on the menu

[@stnkold316]

I appreciate the dedication to the meme in the thumbnail

[@RobertEgbers]

Excellent content!!! I’m a conservative Destiny supporter. I watch him for his process, not his conclusions. I’m glad he led me to this channel. I think there is an opportunity for a lot more content in the future here.

[@MNBLUE1]

Brilliant episode + conversation. Thank you for this. ❤

[@drpeterboghossian]

Thanks

[@Chris-zi1we]

Great to see Mr. Bocattoli on the show

[@LukeXNagel]

This is great but im gonna need an entire weekly podcast with you two, thanks!

[@Tubeytime]

Loved this convo, and would love if you guys went even deeper on these subjects. Unity is always the goal.

[@drpeterboghossian]

Thanks

[@Nazzul]

What a fascinating channel, The host seems for the most part, good faith and doing his best to encourage having conversations in good faith even if disagreement occurs. The fans here seem to wholehardally disagree with this for some reason. Ideology is indeed a hell of a drug.

[@LoudWaffle]

Yeah, absolutely insane the disconnect between comments and creator on this one.

[@tipsyt1909]

Peter is actively trying to make this a place for two sided arguments and discussion. His commenters on the other hand want to own the libs and anything that isn’t exactly what they want to hear means Peter is a shill and a paid corpo bot lol

[@thunderstreet78]

I never thought I would see two of my favorite YT’s having a conversation. Thanks to both of you.

[@drpeterboghossian]

Thank you!

[@84632]

Love these conversations, i hope to see u two on more things together in the future

[@drpeterboghossian]

Thanks

[@yg.theman]

This was a great conversation

[@nineteenninetyfive]

You spent quite a bit of time saying that you can't find someone of the opposing viewpoints to have a deep discussion with. Steven said he doesn't agree that people should wait until after 18 to take puberty blockers, and you quickly moved on to other areas of mutual agreement. If you want to see more good discussions across ideological divides you're not going to do better than having a great discussion about that and showing how it's done.

[@VesnaVK]

Look at "CA Ballot Initiative to Protect Kids w/Erin Friday (Parents with Inconvenient Truths About Trans)," streamed Feb. 18, 2024. At one point in the show, guest Erin Friday makes several arguments against the age 18 cutoff. For example, she says that 17-year-olds will schedule "gender" surgeries for their 18th birthday, and describes the agony of their parents as they helplessly watch their children joyfully count down the days. She also points out the many different age limits we have for different things in our society -- renting a car (25), drinking a beer (21), getting a drivers license (16). Peter continually repeats just two points: First, people need to take responsibility for their own actions at some point. Second, 18 is the universal age for everything in our society as far as a dividing line between childhood and adulthood. He becomes increasingly illogical and uncomfortable in his replies. At the end of the show, she says something in a friendly way about hoping to hash out this particular topic further someday in the future, and his response, to me, seemed cold and curt. I think this it is in this conversation that his "18th birthday" position crystallized, as I haven't heard him reference the birthday specifically, previously. (I could be wrong on that.) When Erin talked about the 18th birthday drawing near -- actual events of parents she's known -- it was heartbreaking. Peter's cold reaction to this, especially, shocked me. BTW, I don't recall if Erin mentioned this or if I heard it elsewhere, but women under 30 typically have a really hard time getting doctors to give them a tubal ligation for the purpose of birth control, sometimes even if there would be health risks in the case of pregnancy. The reason given is "in case you change your mind later." I can attest to this, as I was told this very thing when I was in my early 20s. (There was no health risk in my case.) I'm glad of it, because I did change my mind later. Apparently, you can get a doctor to destroy your fertility, but only if destroying your fertility is not your primary goal.

[@Kamfrenchie]

Sure but destiny wasn't taking a very hard stance there, he was far from wed to this position

[@nealorr5086]

@@VesnaVK 25 isn't a legal age, that's just a policy of the companies. 21 was raised to 21 after too many people were killing people between the ages of 18 and 21. 16 years old has more do with work than anything of informed consent. So, Erin was either being ignorant or disingenuous (probably both).

[@VesnaVK]

@@nealorr5086 I don't understand what part of what she said is ignorant or disingenuous. "She also points out the many different age limits we have for different things in our society -- renting a car (25), drinking a beer (21), getting a drivers license (16)." You then pointed out the reasons these various ages were established. What you said seems to bolster her point: we determine the optimal age limit (legal or otherwise) for something for reasons relevant to that thing, and so we should do the same with gender surgery.

[@nealorr5086]

@@VesnaVK The 25 age limit isn't a legal limit, it's a business policy. It's outside of the discussion (and not followed by every company). So that was ignorant to use. The 21 age is because we set it at 18, then had to increase it. She's not making the argument that we should set it at 18 and then if we have bad experiences from it, it should be increased, is she? So, bad faith. The 16 year age as mentioned is about driving to work. Yes, we give some people some responsibilities if they pass a written and driving test in this case, before they are 18. We also let them get jobs. We also let kids babysit from the age of 12 or so. What does that have to do with anything?

[@jessiejoy1703]

50:28 the fact that destiny thinks just admitting to the brain test hypothetical is where many ppl get stuck shows the terrifying quality of ppl on the internet lol. They can’t even imagine , understand, or accept the hypothetical??? Are the majority of ppl really that stupid?? I find it really hard to believe

[@RachelDee]

My perception is at least about half the people around me or the people online really are that stupid.

[@kw6382]

As Carlin said "think about how stupid the average person is then consider that half of the population is dumber than that"

[@MultipleGrievance]

Yes.... they are that stupid. These are the people who fall for the tribal nonsense.

[@Twbrooks509]

Awesome convo

[@samwalters2904]

Great interview Peter, been waiting all week for this. Street epistemology coming?

[@lexilang5011]

I love both of these men. I have learned a lot from both. Thank you for this. ❤

[@drpeterboghossian]

Thanks

[@TheKeyboardOil]

How about people actually listen to the content of his conversation rather than using your preconceived notions to completely discredit anything he has to say? Funny enough, this mindset is what Peter teaches against. Crazy how the most “enlightened” who are supposed to listen and understand, also fall into the trap that they so strongly protest against. At least listen to the content of the ideas. It’s quite eye opening to his true character, to which I would have never been able to be privy to, if I truly believed what all these comments hating on him are pushing. What has he said in this interview that isn’t valid? You all are so overcome by your own hubris, Jesus Christ. This is not the community I thought it was. Very disappointed to see this attitude. Truly shows that groups (even the ‘good’ guys) are not immune to the hive mind.

[@mowleed2000]

If Hitler was here would we have to listen? The idea we can’t write people off or we are being bad faith is ridiculous.

[@ApacheMagic]

Well said

[@pcap8810]

Destiny has been yapping nonstop for years, we know what he thinks, we don't need to subject ourselves to another two hours of his nonsense

[@MrDrManPerson]

​@@pcap8810Haters is gonna hate

[@MrDrManPerson]

​@@mowleed2000Calling others as bad faith while making comparisons to hitler. The jokes almost write themselves here

[@Qwizzyx]

Great convo

[@TheOriginalJAX]

I must admit I cant stand Destiny but Peter is bringing out his more affable side here and it's not a forced interaction with the flow of conversation. So I find it hard not enjoy two people having an a conversation like adults treating each other like adults simply dissing mere differences and nothing more, simple things to appreciate but it's the kind of stuff that matters.

[@ApacheMagic]

‘Flip flop’ meant as an insult but it’s the only reasonable thing to do if better evidence shows up to change your mind. Otherwise you’re an ideologue.

[@Lennart50]

I think flip floping is implying that you never really had any strong convictions or deep thoughts about your beliefs and just believe whatever scores you the social points at a given time, that they change at the drop of a hat whenever it's convenient for you rather than an adherence to the truth of the matter. What you describe is more about looking at evidence and deciding what seems the most reasonable or close to true at the time, but making it clear that it's only what the evidence suggests. That's closer to the scientific method than the former, more populistic approach to people please.

[@netron66]

Isn't flip flop= slippers?

[@user-dq3xw9cv3e]

@@netron66 Swing and a miss

[@machtnichtsseimann]

My vote is it's often meant as an insult towards those who have loose moorings in the first place. Equivalent to "doing a 180", which still is dependent on context and not always bad. ( I'm partial to those who came out of a life of extreme darkness/depression/hopelessness, then saw the Light, believed in God, and their lives dramatically changed for the better. ) On the other hand, if a person is rather extreme in one world-view ( in a dangerous, cultish manner ), then flip-flops to the other side, so to speak ( operating within a similar extreme, culitsh manner ), then not much has changed. So, flip-flop in that context is meant to criticize harshly.

[@sebastianjovancic9814]

Given a binary decision, there's a difference between going from neutral to heavily on one side vs heavily on one side to heavily on the other. Evidence very rarely suddenly flips the script. Evidence slowly converges. Flipflopping to me is intellectual volatility, being uncomfortable with uncertainty and feeling the need for certain, unambiguous opinions, and evidence only then seems like a convenient tool. More likely to be swayed by social pressure.

[@MarkJones13453]

Thank you for the upload. Always love listening to these stimulating conversations, really makes you think outside the box.

[@chemicalten1447]

This was a really good discussion!

[@ryanjones3043]

Best thumbnail ever for the illustrious Mr. Botticelli!

[@Noobsaucer]

Mr Borecelli was surprisingly calm during this debate.

[@Adam-tp8py]

He matches his opponent's energy.

[@jenispizz2556]

He's actually a surprisingly patient person. He so often wades into the shit of the internet, which is why I think his reputation is so stained as a screaming lunatic. If you actually watch him debate redpill people, he's so kind and charitable... but it's the redpill. Eventually, everyone is going to pop off when they're immersed in that.

[@manofculture584]

Nice to see Mr Trappatoni on the podcast

[@MustardSkaven]

I enjoyed this conversation between Mr Bogocelli and Mr Borelli.

[@shireenmcquade1951]

Wonderful discussion. I have recently become a fan of yours, Steven. You are so reasonable, truth seeking. I’ve been a fan of yours, Peter, for several years.

[@albertorodriguez3927]

The people who think Destiny is just a gotcha debate bro are self reporting that theyre not bright enough to make it through any of his full debates and you probably only watch his algorithm clips. Destiny is not someone who yells nonstop, he matches energy. If you have a problem with that, then you're basically saying he needs to be a "holier than thou" type figure. If you watch any debate he has, its rare that he comes out of the gate totally swinging unless the person has engaged in a toxic manner with him already off stream. Other than that, everyone starts off by going hard on him.

[@newpilgrim]

There is a middle ground...some of us live there most of the time. Know how I do it? I'm not on Twitter, Facebook, Instagram...no judgement here, but you're getting gamed....and we're not all the same. Recognizing that dance is key to your navigating this life. Love it, Peter...how important is truth to you....it's very important to me.....other people like me do exist.....see my earlier comment. Yes, we're intelligent, but we live in System 1 thinking...if you're thinking is coming from that place...as far as I'm concerned..you're part of the problem.

[@activatewindows9589]

More people with moderate beliefs need to speak out on these platforms. It's fucked that we have completely conceded the world's largest discussion forums to the most insane, extreme people who's voices are making real world impacts on our lives.

[@BonShula]

Enlighted did my own research centrist

[@integratedfrost435]

all....of the....periods....are not making....this sound....profound...to anyone.

[@SAPERE69]

What is truth and why is it important to you?

[@newpilgrim]

@@SAPERE69 No answer is ever the right answer here :)

[@azrogue286]

I think people naturally love adversarial conversations, but it's very nice to have high quality conversations like this one sometimes too.

[@Zirrad1]

I've lost respect for Peter because his opinions appear, to me, to be driven by his fan base - which, are exactly the sort of people that think in a way Peter says he's opposed to. Having said that, this conversation has improved my opinion of him. More please.

[@ApacheMagic]

Love destiny. I never understood his gaming and monologuimg thing (I found the images distracting snd irritating) but if I shut my eyes I enjoyed his logical and fair way of looking at things. Don’t agree with all his points but I think he’s a great debater.

[@amamoykcuf]

Imagine a world where all these discussions / debates / podcasts / etc like this, were available audio only, everyone filtered through an AI voice, and you could only reveal who they were after you finished the content. I feel like a ludacris amount of people would suddenly find themselves with a new outlook on how they approach their position and who they listen to / dismiss offhandedly.

[@Maelthorn1337]

You may be pleased to know that he rarely plays games on stream anymore. It's typically just reading article after article writing many pages of notes. History has been a big topic since he started the Israel-Palestine research; I believe he's going over everything leading up to and including World War 2. He took some time to go over the border/immigration stuff but I don't recall hearing his conclusions on that.

[@LeviNotik]

"AKA Mr Borelli" is great 😂😂😂

[@kalig.4982]

What a great conversation! Thats how it should be done. Thank you to the both of you.

[@amamoykcuf]

This was an insanely productive / enlightening / amazing discussion. God how i wish more people would just do this, even if its only within their own echo chamber, deep dive into logic and reasoning and foundations for those beliefs, can be so incredibly insightful.

[@Magni87]

DGGL

[@CRWeaventure]

Daliban strong 😊

[@FightNChickN]

dggL

[@zachmorgan6982]

This is like the best philosophical father son relationship of all time destiny and Peter really really should work together more

[@cerealfamine1]

I loved this conversation!

[@Ludovit110]

This was interesting to listen to, thanks!

[@user-jy7qe5dm2i]

Might not agree with destiny on many things but love to hear what has to say. Dude respects people and isn’t afraid to actually be tested. You can tell he sees his flaws in real time and you can hear the real emotion come out. Seems to me to really want to impact things positively and see real progress. Respect

[@Ifailedeverything]

I had no idea who this guy was. Idk why everyone was all bent about this interview. I thought it was interesting 🤷‍♂️ Ugh! These feminists who think women shouldn’t learn self defense. Do they look both ways before they cross the street?

[@theculturedjinni]

People want to live in their own echo chambers, and when other people are invited in, that do not conform with this echo chamber, then people get upset.

[@pcap8810]

A guy who married a woman who hated him, went on a worldwide tour defending open marriages, then predictably she betrayed him and left for a guy who didn't tolerate that nonsense

[@tansin9]

@@pcap8810 when did he defend open marriages?

[@user-sl4ul4nc3t]

While Destiny is not a dumb guy, it's hard to understand how he can come across as so rational, but then get so many things wrong like Rittenhouse etc, and defend wokeism, etc.

[@marcusreq22]

@@user-sl4ul4nc3twhat did he got wrong about Rittenhouse?

[@jaykotey6228]

Great discussion. Very healthy and informative. Thanks

[@hartyewh1]

This was a nice friendly chat and I would love to see part two where Steven would juxtapose his opinions more regarding trans healthcare of minors, the trustworthiness of institutions etc because these two might have similar approaches and attitudes, but the end results are far more different than one might get from this interaction. Still better to build connection and understanding first so the disagreements can be approached seriously later on.

[@bettybray5366]

With the trans question that was raised. It seems that Mr Destiny is starting from the axiom that there is a definable thing that is trans. His question was that if you could spot it with a brain scan, would you the accept giving blockers to children. My belief is based generally on that there isn’t one identifiable idea of trans, so yes that would change my mind by default as it bypasses the basis for my reasoning.

[@brady3126]

I wonder what sort of brain activity could prove without a doubt that someone is trans. I have seen studies that show that some boys’ brains will exhibit activity that is more consistent with activity in girls’ brains, but even those studies are merely suggestive, not conclusive.

[@malirk]

I've talked to lots of conservatives and they can't tell me what is a woman. They give a definition and I point out people that are women who they wouldn't define as women and they yell back, "There are exceptions to the rule!" I don't think they know what a rule is... The best definitions people give are often associated with "Produce large gametes when operating correctly". I then ask, "How do you know someone does this and they're operating correctly? They start to squirm because they realize their definition has no utility in society. No one is checking gametes and seeing if you're genetically producing the ones you'd normally produce with your chromosomal ordering.

[@bettybray5366]

@@malirk I think the better definition is something along the lines of ‘development based around the production of large gametes’. Of course there are exceptions. Stuff goes wrong in nature all the time. The important point for society is not the exceptions. You can’t legislate for that. In general, the sex of most people can be identified at a reasonable distance, and in the vast majority of cases it’s obvious close up. I’ve heard people say that women tend to be better at spotting men, which makes sense to me. More importantly, the vast majority of crime, particularly violent and sexual crime, is carried out by, a minority of, men. There’s no evidence that a self-declaration of some non-male gender has any influence on that. For sexual crime the vast majority of victims are women. I doubt that any self-declared identity has any real bearing on that. There is a good argument for society to put in place some simple protections based on sex.

[@malirk]

@@bettybray5366 Ok. I'll use your method. I look at Blaire White and identify her as a woman. Does that make her a woman? How would I know she is a woman?

[@bettybray5366]

@@malirk I’ve never seen Blaire White in real life. I’ve seen videos that may have filters applied and I’ve not seen them standing next to a woman. I wouldn’t say that, especially when someone has a has a lot of surgery, people won’t be mistaken and someone couldn’t go ‘stealth’. That’s not the same as self-Id, where women aren’t allowed to challenge someone that’s clearly a man in the changing rooms of a gym, for example.

[@alexiamunizb]

I hope Destiny can look at the Cass report + WPATH files before talking about what evidence is out there on the gender ideology medical scandal and the absolute travesty (pun intended) of regressive, misogynistic , homophobic insanity posing as compassion and poisoning everything with lies.

[@LoudWaffle]

I haven't read it but isn't it about medical care in the UK?

[@brianknotts4602]

Good stuff guys

[@deniselewis8108]

“Sick country, marching toward hospice” is a great assessment and a great way to describe in my opinion. I don’t think your assessment of facilities is at all weird. Makes sense.

[@JamesJessenfedden]

George McFly loves him some Density.

[@Accountdeactivated_1986]

It’s nice to see Screetch have a career after all he’s been through

[@Robisquick]

Wait is Peter the Screetch or Destiny the Screetch? Cause I could see an argument to be made for both. But Peter looks a bit more like an old screetch

[@Accountdeactivated_1986]

@@Robisquick Destiny is clearly Screetch.

[@tonyt-21]

BRAVO! This convo is so inspiring and refreshing.

[@PA1NK1LLER]

Damn good conversation.

[@adamtrott78]

“Your strait right?” “Yeah” “K’….Yeah” “Huh?” “Yeah”

[@richardoldfield6714]

One question that this channel needs to face squarely is this: granted the many flaws of the 'progressive' left and 'wokeism', do they present a bigger or lesser existential threat to democracy and its necessary institutions compared to Trump, his cult following, and their counterparts in various countries? I would argue that the Trump-cult poses by far the bigger threat and that many critics of the 'progressive' left, whilst mostly justified in their criticisms, are too much engaged in fiddling whilst Rome burns. If they continue in this vein they may well wake up to discover - too late to stop it - that neo-fascism has taken power.

Oh boy.

[@alibabaschultz352]

My thoughts exactly

[@Frank-gh6mf]

Why do you believe the Trump cult is more of a threat?

[@Not_CIA]

The far right might support Trump but his main base isn't that. His main base are just people disillusioned on America bc they feel left behind and not rewarded for their beliefs. The far left though actively wants to tear it all down or cater to such extremes and minority groups that it doesn't even function on a societal level. I'd rather be ruled by disillusioned patriot wannabes than communists.

[@eleccy]

Meh, say what you will, the HR guidelines I follow, the hiring guidelines I have to follow, the things I'm allowed to talk about in online platforms and the cultural rules I have to follow were enacted by one side - and it wasn't the right that did it, it was progressives. In the here and now 'progressive' and 'woke' culture is ruining the stuff I like - right now. I am not a fan of Trump or conservativism either, but when they come for my interests and livelihood, and enact the HR guidelines in my place of business I'll oppose them. That's my honest perspective.

[@kkplx]

What an absolute treat to watch, thank you.

[@SnekChrmr]

Been hyped to see this conversation, I loved the first conversation you both had ❤️ Peter & Destiny are pretty reasonable compared to the type of stuff thats popular currently

[@lndexcard]

My two best friends

[@Levelity]

The trans brain machine question is one I’ve been asking for awhile but from a different focus. I was focusing on if you could 100% determine if someone was trans, would we completely dismiss self ID then?

[@w0rkhop555]

I always think about this kind of idea from the frame of finding a way to categorize these 2 groups differently because if we could 100% identify a "true" trans person a self id type individual could still exist seperate of that so long as we are educated as a group enough to recognize the harm or lack there of for their existence, i think currently self id people tend to harm the trans movement because people conflate them with one another but i would imagine it would be better for both groups if they were identified seperately

[@katansi]

But even if there was a brain difference that led to that firmly held belief, they're still the sex they were conceived as. Self ID is as empirical as honest delusional thinking. We can view some mental illnesses and injuries on brain scans, that doesn't make false beliefs resultant from those physically measurable phenomena more worth listening to just because there's proof of a cause. Like if you have a traumatic brain injury and all of a sudden believe you're a bird, does it matter that your brain damage shows up on a scan or that you don't have wings when you try to jump off a roof?

[@jessedudezx]

@@katansi I don't take issue with what you're implying necessarily but there's a pretty big difference between brain scans that indicate something as naturally evident from birth or adolescence and not resultant of illness/disease/disorder versus brain scans that indicate something as resultant from traumatic brain injury, from which no result would be considered natural.

[@Levelity]

@@katansi I think the distinction is that from birth they have a physical manifestation that proves that they have a sort chimaeric condition with an opposite sex nervous system, in this hypothetical. My main issue is I rebuke self ID and in giving this caveat we could remove the "self ID fad/contagion" we have atm.

[@pcap8810]

The machine will never exist because trans is a narrative not a condition