Destiny vs Norman Finkelstein heated debate on Gaza | Lex Fridman Podcast

Lex Fridman Podcast full episode: • Israel-Palestine Debat...
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GUEST BIO:
Norman Finkelstein and Benny Morris are historians. Mouin Rabbani is a Middle East analyst. Steven Bonnell (aka Destiny) is a political livestreamer.
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[@LexClips]

Full podcast episode: kzbin.info/www/bejne/Z4nCfJehpKyridU Lex Fridman podcast channel: kzbin.info Guest bio: Norman Finkelstein and Benny Morris are historians. Mouin Rabbani is a Middle East analyst. Steven Bonnell (aka Destiny) is a political livestreamer.

[@amylolxox]

Destiny loves to talk about how others shouldnt have a platform when the same could be said about him. By playing games online masquerading himself as a righty to spread misinformation. His stance goes directly against orthodox jews and he knows it.

[@Claude-dp3mx]

Lex, you're a massive anti-intellectual clown. Taleb was right about you.

[@tipoomaster]

This sounds like every new york deli

[@brettstarks1846]

😆

[@brknsh6689]

I didnt hear "word to my mother" or " deadass" once thoo

[@unitforce4163]

@@brknsh6689 He's not talking about the ghetto blacks

[@MrMAXZ888]

Not really. A Yemeni clerk/moderator is needed for authentic NY deli experience.

[@couchslouch1982]

@@MrMAXZ888 Don't forget the Dominicans and Puerto Ricans

[@Jchasser]

Mr. Brocconlini please never speak to me or my son again

[@henrybishop7595]

hahahaha

[@JJ-sn2ys]

Dr. Frankenstein needed to give that a rest

[@BbeMamGaga]

The Israelites have the same empathy for the Palestinians as the Nazis had for the Jews. History upside down!

[@TheSignofJonah777]

@@BbeMamGaga Then it makes sense that there are 2 million Palestinians living in Israel today. Israel has a 1.31 ratio of civilian to militant death. Better than any country in WWII better than all of the US's wars ever. Which are considered the most humane.

[@ssir5927]

@@TheSignofJonah777In addition to being factually incorrect, your statement is pure American-brained insanity.

[@brettstarks1846]

I’m still laughing at Norm calling him “Mr. Borelli” and “Mr. Morelli.” I guess he subconsciously thought Destiny is an Italian guy.

[@mikemugs7]

😂😂

[@vorna]

+Perelli, Ferelli

[@MandosCulture]

Benny was slick with that😂😊

[@Tiasung]

Mr. Morelli does sound rather badass

[@supernova7848]

Pacelli

[@screamstation]

The title has a typo, it is *Mr Borelli* vs *Norman Finkelstein*

[@ahmedkhoja2279]

You didn’t hear him correctly. It is Mr. Morelle

[@screamstation]

That's the B-side. There is also Fantastic Moron, Motormouth, and one more, but it escapes me now.@@ahmedkhoja2279

[@ezragoldberg3132]

✋ Mr Barbelli! You even Lift, bro? 💪

[@BbeMamGaga]

The Israelites have the same empathy for the Palestinians as the Nazis had for the Jews. History upside down!

[@ezragoldberg3132]

@@BbeMamGaga and the Arabs and Palestinian were so compassionate that their leaders admired and met with Hitler himself to discuss their Hatred of the Jews. Not to mention firing the first shot with the full on Invasion after Israel declared it's independence

[@andyd568]

A slow talker, 3 shouters and a mute.

[@HelloThere-gl1bx]

Rabbani is pretty composed here imo

[@Hankblue]

Don't forget about Mr. Morelli and Mr. Borreli, those guys were pretty loud as well

[@bardol359]

Slow talking doesn't exclude you from shouting, if anything Finklestein was the one that initiated the shouting

[@anubis8586]

There’s no wonder everyone on this reply chain including the OP commentator is a lost cause 🤦‍♂️ uneducated, uncultured and watched from reality beyond belief. Supporting Nazi Zionists without blinking an eye and not knowing basic facts is wild. The downfall is pretty understandable now.

[@deeky1239]

@@bardol359 Every single time indeed. The guy really has issues, shouldn't be publicly speaking if he's gonna conduct himself this way.

[@davidnguyen1496]

Mr. Finkelstein is missing the main point here which is Destiny girl name🗣️

[@ruidechen]

AMAZIN

[@Christian-fy5dz]

BETA!

[@LeonLindProductions]

Hahahahaha let's swear to never stop using this joke, not even in 10 years, no matter how much his mods delete the comments

[@Disaletteritis]

" "Mr Destini...not all knowledge is in Wikipedia!"

[@DavidMyrmidon]

Not just a Girl's Name.. but Trailer Trash Stripper Name.

[@sofuno863]

wtf is that Destiny doing there?

[@gutsblackswordsman4707]

Agreed, I think he just increased the overall hostility level in the debate. Even when he made a good case or point, the way he delivered it, made his opponent not listen well.

[@Redbrack]

I heard Shapiro was who Lex wanted, but he wouldn’t do it

[@sofuno863]

@@gutsblackswordsman4707I mean I don't blame Norman for not taking this destiny dude seriously. Even Destiny doesn't take Destiny seriously. The dude chills with his girl's boyfriend live what do you expect. This topic needs some decent knowledgeable smart people to discuss it not clowns.

[@arafmahmud1302]

​@@RedbrackHe doesn't have enough caliber to debate with Norman.

[@Redbrack]

@@arafmahmud1302 I agree, but Shapiro has more legitimacy and knowledge on this topic than bomerelli. He'd still get smoked, but it makes more sense than having destiny there.

[@ollielon5926]

What is Destiny even arguing about? It was ruled "plausible genocide" because that's the highest "ruling" they can give given the fact that it's not an actual court case yet but rather a hearing. Not only that, when they gave their ruling they also referenced various statements of genocidal intention by the Israeli government/governmental officials. Even though the actual case will take many years, that doesn't mean that Israel can keep on doing what it is doing. It has to stop by international law. These are BASIC things one should know. There SHOULDN'T be a debate on such obvious technical issues.

[@billusher2265]

he said at the end even if Israel nukes Gaza and ends all 2 million lives there he still wouldn’t count it as genocide. His point is to just defend Israel by default.

[@user-by6fp4ov3k]

​@@billusher2265Do you think genocide is just "many people dead"? Genocide can be 200 dead, or 2,000,000 dead. But just the number ALONE can not definitively decide if it's a genocide.

[@marc15yo]

@user-by6fp4ov3k You are correct in your statement by itself. But within the context above you're wrong. Re-read the above comment: "ends all of the two million lives there" Gaza's population is 2.1 million. Killing 2 million people in a country comprised of 2.1 million is objectively a genocide. Sure, the value of the number in itself doesn't matter. It is not a numbers game but It is a game of proportionality, intent, and disregard for human life. What is happening in gaza already qualifies as ethnic cleansing by the U.N. definition. The entire population of that city (state)has been forcibly relocated against their will under falling bombs. The case against Israel for genocide is legitimate and is very strong.

[@ssir5927]

@@user-by6fp4ov3kGenocide can be ZERO dead too. Killing people is already covered by many many other laws, the crime of Genocide is essentially a crime of intention, akin to the difference between manslaughter and pre-meditated murder, of which Israel is undoubtedly guilty of.

[@gador789]

The "various statements of genocidal intention" were read out and then the actual quotes were read. The "quotes" in the report were butchered beyond belief.

[@supernova7848]

Destiny’s Starbucks product placement!

[@Dwiz26]

Desperate for some private Z-bills

[@picaroon602]

Starbucks losing billions, destiny product placement won't bring any sales because he's an imbecile XD

[@Jose-og909]

No one's buying Starbuck after his performance.

[@talia6965]

Starbucks coffee is pretty mediocre anyway lol

[@WELSHGAMER99]

​@@Jose-og909Better than Norm's childish performance

[@md.muzahidulislamsamrat8037]

No apartheid has a right to exist, period.

[@karinababy6557]

👏

[@K0r0s]

It's a good thing there's no apartheid then :)

[@wolvesdentrainingcenter8707]

What do you call the theocratic doctoral monarchies throughout Israel’s neighbors?

[@ayyylmao101]

@@K0r0s Soon enough, there won't be. Lol

[@ipadbossbaby4558]

You're presupposing that Israeli occupation meets the standard of "apartheid".

[@dsfpiuhasdf]

norm saying "UNTRUE, UNTRUE, UNTRUE..." is my new alarm

[@-8l-924]

that was hilarious - it did almost sound musical in a weird way. I’d be terrified if it was my alarm lmao

[@karinababy6557]

Lol 😅

[@CatotheE]

Honestly, I respect Benny Morris for conceding that last point.

[@andrehanderson]

Yes that was admirable

[@robertpirsig5011]

I was surprised by that because he's basically admitted the double standard. They say extreme stuff all the time which is fine as long as it's not Palestinians saying it.

[@CatotheE]

@@robertpirsig5011 Yeah. Tons of respect for that.

[@user-xf8ot1ds2p]

He was laughing hysterically the whole time destiny was getting insulted

[@Limud123]

I don't, they did not lose shit. He should have said I reject the framing but concede the point. Morris is the oat on this topic. And he came off the best.

[@TidusColeman]

"Did you read the case?" - "Mr. Borelli" aka Destiny aka Steven Bonnell II😂🤣💀

[@Mimi90353]

Mr. Borelli brace yourself. I think we all will Norm 😅

[@AnakinGuyChopper]

I noticed I keep giggling throughout this entire debate, and I realized it's because every participant has a cartoonishly funny voice. It's like listening to Popeye and Daffy Duck have a serious geopolitical debate lol

[@thejoin4687]

It's like listening to an Batman audio drama

[@alyzak.8997]

hahahahaha

[@Vinay_311]

I hope puberty hits you quickly so you can stop behaving like a dumb child online (i kept giggling 🤓☝️)

[@newonevery740]

This is the worst moderation of a debate i have ever seen

[@kathrynneiberger8373]

He mentioned at the beginning of the full debate that this will be the first debate he won't step into and will let them speak pretty freely even when emotions run high

[@newonevery740]

@@kathrynneiberger8373 which is ridiculous

[@TheSword2212]

I loved it

[@thegingerbreadgod1312]

⁠@@newonevery740yes i bet you would say that because it exposed your finklespleen

[@newonevery740]

@@thegingerbreadgod1312 naaaaah it is simply terrible. Anyone with a functioning brain knows how a discussion is moderated otherwise it is chaos. Hopefully you have a functioning brain

[@wesselbindt]

Three people who wrote the fucking books on the conflict, and mr Bonatelli. What is this line up? What was this random internet guy doing here? Poorly chosen lightweight guest, led to an immensely skewed debate

[@Pixi49]

Yes he was so out of depth and an annoying twit

[@whodis3560]

idk man finkelstein was more annoying than that girl destiny

[@luigixroxas]

To be fair the debate about Israel and Palestine is the equivalent of arguing weather Water is healthy for u or not. Israel is indefensible

[@KentPhillips]

Destiny was right though. Dolus Specialis is mentioned atleast 4 times in the South Africa case and is the specific kind of intent that makes Genocide different from every other crime. The fact that Norm doesn’t know what that is means he didn’t read the case document. You can find the case online and search for the term in there.

[@fitthora]

@@luigixroxasYour conviction is irrelevant. What is relevant is if there is a substantial population on either side of the argument. Personally I think Israel has been quite timid in their actions.

[@adamjamesreilly6899]

This is more of a dinner-party argument than a debate; too difficult/frustrating to watch productively.

[@Jose-og909]

Destiny didn't belong there.

[@TheJoethud22]

@@Jose-og909yeah he’s over qualified. He smoked that slow paced fuck

[@pyotrvoitsekhovski9402]

Finkelstein didn’t belong here

[@WillemDeHero]

@@pyotrvoitsekhovski9402Finkelstein really didn’t belong there

[@chins9217]

If Lex actually moderated but he fishes for clips so

[@jordanrattanavong2655]

The only thing I really dislike about Destiny is that she automatically takes the contrarian view on almost every issue. She’s never argued this hard in favor of Israel on stream. She was far more reasonable and in the middle.

[@niazismail2803]

😂😂 she

[@matejsmrekar1218]

SHE 😂😂😂😂😂

[@notorious4204]

I swear if he's debating with a Pro Israel Person,He will instantly become much more left

[@AndrewSteffenHB]

🤣😂

[@NickCager]

Her real name is Karen.

[@Metonymy1979]

Norman and Destinys speeds are too different

[@LeonEdwards-lt1bn]

Destiny got destroyed

[@strangeman9362]

​@@LeonEdwards-lt1bnyeah via ad hominems but not by debate 😂 🤡

[@TheCraydee]

care to elaborate?@@LeonEdwards-lt1bn

[@Alitar1212]

@@strangeman9362 awww your online daddy was offended awwwww

[@JET7C0]

@@strangeman9362 I mean, what got Finkelstein throwing those insults was a reaction to "Destiny" sarcastically asking "Did you even read the report" - why is everyone ignoring that ad hominem and acting like it was some sophisticated counterpoint? Flippantly asking "did you even read the report" was absolutely an insult meant to provoke, not some civil retort.

[@Dawsenconway]

I feel like a 1 on 1 debate is a better format then 2 on 2. Just my opinion however.

[@blueberrymcphuckerson9821]

Agreed. 2v2 always results in like the most assertive/aggressive of both sides dominating and taking up 90% of the discussion. Just keep it 1v1.

[@aaronpannell6401]

I wish Lex would have moderated. Make them pause, take a deep breath, and only one person speak at a time.

[@drewbewho]

*than *than *than Continue to write it 100 times.

[@Dawsenconway]

@@drewbewho thanks! I'm from Brazil and my English is getting better. I'm still struggling with their, there, they're.

[@aaronpannell6401]

@@drewbewho I'm guessing you don't have many friends.

[@jamiefrostick4059]

Why did Norm Finklestein agree to debating with Destiny in the first place if he really only wanted to debate Benny Morris?

[@BruceLeedar]

I think Morris has refused to debate him 1-on-1 going forward.

[@zarbins]

He did refuse to debate Destiny at first. I think he acquiesced so he'd have a chance to debate Morris, who he was much more prepared for, having read all Morris' work on the topic. I'm not sure Finkelstein had a chance to review Destiny's vast academic literature on Israel Palestine though.

[@oblonsky]

It's clear Destiny isn't a major expert here but his points are logically sound and he is a strong cross-examiner. He's able to point out flaws of reasoning or bad faith arguments and he himself mostly argues in good faith from what I've seen. But I can understand why Finkledinkle would find him pesky because it may present as if Destiny is holding himself up as some expert on this topic, whereas Finkledinkle fancies himself as some kind of demi-god on the subject. But because Destiny is a strong reasoner it's hard to actually point out any flaws in what he's saying which is why Finkledinkle (like I'm doing) got flustered and resorted to name-calling and belittling his credentials. Destiny might not know what he's talking about but he sounds well informed and doesn't open himself up to easy attack (except on his credentials which is taboo in debates). Morris is a legend and also the most reasonable and fair of anyone at the table. I think he has the firmest grasp on the situation and his point is basically hey so what maybe formation of State of Israel had some injustices going on but Arabs made it 10000% worse for themselves by acting so irrationally and refusing to come to a diplomatic solution over borders like how almost eveyr other people have or would have done. He agrees and accepts that Israel might go too far sometimes definitely no doubt about it he admits that but Israel is in an impossible position because Arabs have acted so irresponsibly for the past 8 decades. It's Morris' position that I think is ultimately most convincing. A reasonable population would have come to the negotiating table 70 or 60 or 50 or 30 or 20 years ago and worked out a deal rather than refuse to accept any deal, continue launching violent attacks and continue screaming they're the victims.@@zarbins

[@kaytrout3836]

The paycheck… duh

[@oblonsky]

who?@@user-ys3cq4ok4k

[@dancheng3014]

I wonder if this feisty Sicilian woman Destinee Benelli is related to the Italian firearms manufacturer. Love their shotguns.

[@Mimi90353]

😂😂

[@Ethereal1567]

Italy was among the European nations UK, France, Germany and US that sliced up the Middle East as invading colonizers for their own greed and self enrichment weren't they? Same in the Continent of Africa....however fast forward and the difference here is African countries have wised up and are now summarily removing/kicking the European and US powers out of Africa. TOUCHE!! Free Palestine

[@TheMinarus]

It's like he aggro'd a bystander NPC lmao

[@yupyupj522]

I can't believe anyone thinks Norm looks good in this debate. He even said in other interviews that he did not do good and he feels embarrassed.

[@m_nch7]

Exactly. Rabbani was way better.. calm, intelligent and respectful. Norman appealed to authority and insulted Destiny and prof Morris a couple of times. it was unprofessional

[@nakedeagle3828]

Why is Destiny even on this? wtf?

[@lain5858]

Because he is more relevant than you?

[@meganuke9091]

​@@lain5858eww destiny gay lover.

[@usman5140]

exactly, its pointless

[@blackbeltjones2903]

​@@lain5858 lol at this loser seeking out all the destiny hating comments. We get it, ur a stan.

[@yshah7]

lol i was thinking the same thing.. they brought on a youtuber for more hits i guess. You have a bunch of intellectuals with PHDs and like 60 years of authorship, and a youtuber with one semester of college education lol. Nevertheless he made good use of his wiki reading capabilities.

[@grigorirasputin887]

That patch on his beard is messing with me

[@Ryan-mr3zf]

I've been there I think, its when you mess up shaving and gotta like mess up your whole beard to fit your mistake

[@Operation_C4]

@@Ryan-mr3zf Actually, I'm pretty sure it's Alopecia. You better keep my queens name out of your f***** mouth.

[@michaelwolfe1853]

It’s shaped like Israel which is the best part

[@hals6118]

@@Ryan-mr3zf Pretty sure it's just a facial bald spot lol

[@SizemoreMusic]

OMG, I didn't even notice it until I read this

[@g4do]

How's Destiny taken seriously? I do not understand 😕

[@orozcodavid101]

He’s a debate bro that speaks fast, some people get fooled into thinking rhetoric substitutes for good arguments

[@eshedguitar]

He brings up only facts, very organized and collected. You don't see this with the other debaters

[@somanyquestions7194]

But Norm is someone we should listen to? The guy sounds like a child

[@rafd97]

The same way your mom got to breed apparently

[@maestrofrags3436]

​@@eshedguitarHe brings boyfriends to his girl aswell...but he doesnt organize consequences of that

[@GTNover]

Respct to Benny Morris for the end of this clip. I was thinking "thats a good point" as Benny said the same thing to his debate opponent.

[@benshakespeare268]

Considering the subject, this is fairly civil and moderated debate 👍

[@alexeigleizer2225]

Watching five minutes of his conversation is basically all the proof you need, that there will never ever be peace in that region. Ever

[@Abdirahman_Mohamed]

because of Israel

[@bryontalamantes9386]

Not until the apartheid regime of Israel ends

[@leadfaun]

@@Abdirahman_Mohamed they've made peace with everyone else in the region.

[@deeky1239]

@@Abdirahman_Mohamed Mohamed says it's because of Israel 🤣

[@Abdirahman_Mohamed]

@@leadfaun Not Syria or Lebanon or Iraq or Saudi Arabia or Kuwait or Yemen or Eye Ran lil bro

[@andrewsparks7959]

LOOK I CAN SHOUT TOO!

[@Zoe_r146]

Lmao

[@MohdAdrian]

How did this livestreamer even qualify to participate in this podcast?

[@Operation_C4]

Reading wikipedia. Duh 🙄

[@BreathOfDust]

Corny comment and completely irrelevant

[@AK-hf3pf]

@@BreathOfDust destinycel alert.

[@noctislucis9521]

New take on the issue i guess

[@liamdineen8396]

@@BreathOfDustaww your idol is in fact, stupid 😂

[@mikealvaradoistbe]

This debate was hilarious

[@Im_that_guy_man]

what is hank from breaking bad doing here?

[@jiggsawjazz]

Ultimately it's Norm debating that Israel mass-murdering Palestinian children is wrong, and Destiny arguing that it's not so bad...

[@b.ballooon9225]

That's what you got? How emotional and bad faith are you to get that?

[@davidsmith-pz3qg]

A statement is more true if you scream it

[@AlOfNorway]

Exactly my thoughts… just shows the immaturity of the pro Israelis. Norm is screaming because they are interrupting them.

[@hrodvithit]

Ye, I mean speaking fast and animatedly is also a pretty shit tactic to boot.

[@nkadenrs703]

@@AlOfNorway Are you being serious? Finkelstein interrupted the most out of everyone there.

[@rickstube5299]

​@@nkadenrs703 finkelstein interrupted benny when benny was being dishonest to him and Mouin. He did not interrupt destiny until he started attacking finkelstein. When he directly debated finkelstein, he is the one interrupting.

[@GraysPeakBand]

@@rickstube5299 lol, you fucks can only lie. The video is public. This is obviously not true.

[@user-ng6vq7tu4d]

Norman is on another level. His argument of the "plausibility of genocide" is much for Morris to fathom

[@m_nch7]

or for any other Israeli that actually knows how the IDF and Hamas operates. Rabbani was way more professional.. Norman lashed out a couple of times, disrespected and appealed to authority. that's hardly "another level"

[@statego]

I can’t follow the conversation

[@wastedbread8036]

Cause you're dumb

[@elijahasefa389]

The panel was angry that day my friends, like an old man trying to send back soup at a deli.

[@eastwaters4082]

A Seinfeld classic.

[@bunvag]

Can someone please explain to me wtf they are even arguing? I don’t understand who is fighting for who and what each position is. I’m so confused

[@thejoin4687]

It's about Mr. Bronchialisti

[@dfmrcv862]

Finklestein not knowing "state of mind" vs "special intent" when it comes to legal cases.

[@iguacu3517]

Editor did not include enough context. It’s about a case brought by South Africa against Israel, in the international court of Justice and the Court, found that South Africa met the initial burden for their case of “plausible”. Despite professing that he read the case four times, Finkelstein clearly either does not understand the legal definition of plausible or willfully misconstruing it.

[@Pixi49]

Left side of the table think Israel genocidal and right side is for Israel

[@mikechase5358]

That’s a good point sheesh that is the point 👏🏾

[@yms8280]

😂😂😂😂😂

[@jonsnow5129]

Perhaps u should specificly mention south african case in the title

[@pauldemelto6650]

Mr. Burrelli: "The quote is incomplete!" Reads complete quote ... sounds ten times worse than the original quote....

[@AntiTheBird]

Even if you think it sounds worse, the full quote make's it so they are meeting their requirements for the genocide convention where as the edited quote makes it sound like the opposite...

[@scottemmons6409]

Wouldn't Vietnam and Korea be considered genocide on the part of the USA also?

[@pjhimself252]

It takes three minutes to get to nowhere and then the yelling continues to no end. Thanks for nothing

[@radical3868]

Norman Finklestien - Ph.D in Zionism and Palestinian history, spend years in Palestine, multiple published eorks Mr. Borelli - Divorced college dropout Gee wonder who knows what theyre talking about

[@b.ballooon9225]

Elitist and classist, you trust people just cause they have money and fancy diplomas? Why not go after the arguments? If you had any good counters to his points, you'd say them, instead of using diploma eltiist gatekeeping. Same with Finkel, all he has was ad homs just like you, why not debate the points? Anybody who says "i'm too good to debate this person" tends to never have any counter. it's a cowardly excuse.

[@HUGEFLYINGWHALE]

​Yep I would guess that to someone who's not emotionally involved, destiny comes out more convincing than norm​@@b.ballooon9225

[@wapi8411]

@@b.ballooon9225 no one said he had a lot of money, what kinda straw man argument are you making...

[@b.ballooon9225]

@@wapi8411 No I'm not strawmanning. People only respect Finkel because he has a diploma from an ivy league college, in order to get that, you usually have to be richer than the average person. You are appealing to authority, your only argument defending Finkel is his fancy diploma, no substance in your defense, its' just "he's an expert". That's appeal to authority. Get it? I'm not strawmanning, I'm directly responding to your appeals to authority. Appealing to authority is elitist and aristocratic.

[@b.ballooon9225]

@@wapi8411 You strawmanned me by not understanding the connection between money and diplomas from fancy colleges

[@Hopefulmuslim]

The way he literally brought a starbucks cup ON PURPOSE. Damn, why'd anyone stoop so low

[@dawnb948]

Actually its the hosts fault to not step in and make those two let others speak.

[@ryzikx]

how does finklestein not know what dolus specialis is its written in the case a bunch of times

[@dino9921]

Where in this do you conclude he doesn’t know what that means? He’s angry at Destiny because Destiny snarkily remarked “Did you even read the case?”

[@jdgoesham5381]

He didn't read it. He prob skimmed or read what others said about it. But that's how he rolls today. Dude is so bad faith and disingenuous I can't even watch him anymore. He's like a child.

[@bentoomet8805]

@@dino9921because he conflated mens rea and dolus specialis, which implies he doesn’t know the distinction and therefore doesn’t know the definition of dolus specialis. Which is a term used 4 times in the report he claims to have read 4 times.

[@mottebailley4122]

@@dino9921Well he confused mens rea and dolls specialis, which are related but different concepts.

[@dino9921]

@@bentoomet8805 No he didn’t. You don’t have listening comprehension skills.

[@stevnated]

Okay, do they ever talk about Dolus Eventualis then?

[@b.ballooon9225]

Nope, Finkel distracted away because it made him look bad.

[@xaositectz]

Aside of the meme value, Finkelstein was absolutely wrong and Mr. Borelli was right about dolus specialis. Yet what did he do in the next minute: pompous whiny shouting "I'M SMARTER YOU ARE NOT ALLOWED TO TALK TO ME". this kept happening throughout the interview and this toddler style behavior is what lefties took as Finkelstein "owning" Mr Morrello.

[@IAmNumber4000]

Bro. Zionist leaders have been EXCEEDINGLY clear about their special intent since the founding of Israel. The land they wanted to colonize as an ethnostate already had people living on it. Explain how you find this issue complicated.

[@mpurusho]

Why was Norm seemingly desperate to make Destiny Italian? (Borelli?)

[@eugenekrabs869]

It was a different last name each time, I choose to believe he did it for the fans because it's really funny when you see how consistently he'll pick a new variant each time.

[@BrianDgreat123]

I'm pretty sure he did it intentionally to show that he doesn't hold destiny in high regard.

[@rosenfaust]

Calling someone by the wrong name is a show of disrespect, doing it with a different name each time shows he's being *intentionally* disrespectful. Destiny may be the only one at the table who didn't write a book on the subject, but Norm is the only one at the table who had to result to name-calling, ad hominem, and acting generally childish.

[@mpurusho]

@@rosenfaustyeah, you can’t say your interlocutor is ill-informed and childish and then act this way.

[@eugenekrabs869]

@@rosenfaust resort to implies he didn't both destroy destiny the mutes childish points and disrespect him for thinking he deserves a spot at the table

[@Baldor.]

Norman Fikelstein reminds me of that short dude from that video that rants to some dude playing the saxophone or something: "You suck! I played with Bruce Springsteen".....same accent, same tone , same everything

[@inoshikachokonoyarobakayar2493]

I was wondering why the kid from Zombieland was debating Norman Finkelstein and why Norman kept calling him versions of the word Broccolini.😂

[@b.ballooon9225]

I'm still wondering why anybody takes Finkel seriously when he justifies Russian Imperialism. You have to be a racist against Westerners to support Finkel.

[@aronean]

How embarrassing

[@b.ballooon9225]

especially the comments, bunch of classists acting like you need a fancy diploma to have an opinion on this topic. If Finkel truly outclassed Destiny, he would have countered him with more than Ad Homs and ignoring. Anybody who says "You are below speaking to me" actually tends to have no counter themselves and just using it as a cowardly excuse to not engage.

[@KentPhillips]

I really needed to come back to this video to comment that people just need to go read the South Africa case to see that Destiny was right that Norm didn't read the case. Dolus Specialis is mentioned on page 2. The full 84 page case is online and easily accessible. Even if you don't want to read the case you can search (CTRL F) the term in the case pdf online for both Mens Rea and Dolus Specialis to see that Mens Rea is never mentioned while Dolus Specialis is mentioned 4 times. Quote from the South Africa case page 2 "South Africa’s case is that those acts and omissions are genocidal in character, as they are committed with the requisite specific intent (dolus specialis) to destroy Palestinians in Gaza as a part of the broader Palestinian national, racial and ethnical group."

[@b.ballooon9225]

Crazy that people think Finkel is smart, dude had 40 years to prepare and still knew less than Destiny.

[@barackobama8869]

I have a question. Did the ICJ ever rule out that Israel ever committed a genocide in Gaza?

[@b.ballooon9225]

@@barackobama8869 innocent before proven guilty especially for such high charges.

[@barackobama8869]

@@b.ballooon9225 alright so if I got it correctly, please correct if I’m wrong but, the state of Israel is not committing a genocide right now because the evidence is there at the moment?

[@b.ballooon9225]

@@barackobama8869 There is no evidence that is correct. South Africa presented some quotes but most were misquoted and out of context. The court decided that it was plausible that the genocide convention could be violated, but that's not them specifically saying it is. It's them saying it is a possibility, but so far there is no evidence of it. So basically, as of this moment, there is no evidence that Israel is doing genocide.

[@bradjones9634]

Deep subject.

[@spiderqueen601]

On that last point Benny conceded - I was shocked. Is it a valid claim that Palestine lost their whole country? Did Palestinians have more power being occupied by Britain then they do as minorities in Israel?

[@xenophiliuslovegood6914]

This framing is off. Think of all the other colonies that became independent states after WWII. Britain could have easily left Palestine an independent state.

[@plutopulp]

@@xenophiliuslovegood6914 Britain actually promised them a state for helping fight off the Otomans. They promised a lot of things..

[@canalphi2673]

@@plutopulp They made a generic promisse to all arabs that they would be free, but did not say how or the borders

[@SonHNguyen-qz5dg]

@@xenophiliuslovegood6914 Even if the British did, the Jews would revolt either way and form their own state

[@Badg0r]

This is really annoying!!! Just let eachother speak, and come to the conclusion by sharing thoughts. Be open for relevant information, but please stop fighting. Let someone finish his sentence.

[@joelmiller3218]

Should've been finkelstein and benny Morris 1 on 1. Destiny was a huge clown in that room and his mere presence there is an insult to all 3 of them, including Lex. Destiny should stick to being a gaming streamer.

[@AntiTheBird]

@@joelmiller3218 Benny would never give a clown like fink the time of day he was just there as a favor to Mr.Bornelli

[@b.ballooon9225]

Almost as if someone was being elitist the entire time and refusing to engage even though he agreed to a debate with that someone. Almost as if someone used their diploma and their own books as quotes and reasons why they shouldn't even have to counter the other. Good clue is, whoever refuses to engage, especially when they use ad homs and excuses like "You are beneath me" which is essentially all Finkel said to Destiny, that person has no counter, they have no points, which is why they refuse to engage. Normal people engage with people even if they are ignorant, Finkel proved he had no counter, normal people would love to dunk on people who are wrong, him refusing to proves he's got nothing to say. If Finkel had a counter, he would have said it, instead of insults like motor mouth. What a disrespectful pos Finkel is, imagine agreeing to a debate, but then coming just to meme and insult.

[@AikidoTubeSock]

What makes this type of 'exchange' almost untenable are the repeated interruptions coming mostly from the Borelli side of the table. I agree with Norm that Borelli did not know what he was talking about. Borelli claims to be able to debate anyone and he probably would. He would therefore sorely lack the requisite knowledge to have any debate in any subject.

[@AntiTheBird]

What did he say that was wrong?

[@dfmrcv862]

Interruptions? Literally 8 seconds in Finklestein interrupts Destiny.

[@whodis3560]

@@dfmrcv862 no no you don’t get it. Twinklestein doesn’t interrupt, he explains you see, because Mr. Vermicelli only read chapter 6 of the Wikipedia tweet and doesn’t know what happens in 7. Therefore, Fickleween as a scholar is obligated to educate him.

[@helloisitmeurlookingfor5898]

@@dfmrcv862lmfao

[@AikidoTubeSock]

@@AntiTheBird Pretty much his framing of each point he made. The mental gymnastics necessary to regard an apparent genocide as acceptable were breathtaking.

[@ashtar2305]

15-2 or 16-1 Pretty High...HORRIBLE THINGS HAPPENING

[@maoritrustee-io3hw]

Id of really like to of sat in on this, get together to create a meaningful contribution and discussion. My submission to the icj was way before south Africa, and it was done in person, in fact i had accused south Africa of jumping the gun , in my meeting south Africa was present. I was advised that as this was a preliminary hearing, my time will come, as im working from the UN mandate and not the ICj.

[@Ryuzaki-JongUn]

What Destiny never seems to understand is that sharing your girlfriend with other men is Haram.

[@yodietv]

Why’s destiny here somebody explain

[@lain5858]

Because he is more relevant than you?

[@cieply1234]

Because Lex though Destiny would be a good addition, and seems like according to many he was right.

[@billsmoke4919]

@@lain5858 Dude you're in this entire comment section defending Destiny, find better heroes...seriously. Dude is an ill-informed, nihilistic gamer with depression. You can do better.

[@meganuke9091]

​@@lain5858destiny gay lover here to give destiny rim job.

[@untruereal]

are you gonna say this on every comment ​@@lain5858

[@heyimgoingtoplaysomegames]

Hey you guys wanna know how we as a society have lost it? When we argue over semantics regarding ongoing genocide.

[@eenkjet]

I read the case four times and I'm now misquoting it!

[@joshsweird]

Ahhhh. The debate we didn’t know we didn’t need!

[@zakkziegler111]

Who in the f**k is even putting Destiny in the same room as legitimately educated people? Why was he even speaking? Insufferable and infuriating this is where we're at. Christ. Pathetic.

[@bc4306]

Experts fallacy ... these morons never accomplish anything. Why respect such fools?

[@jeyhunfazilov2060]

Destiny seems to draw much better conclusions based on facts that the finkeldick guy

[@NetanyahuWarCriminal]

Thank you. Leave it to Rogan’s chair sniffer Lex Friedbrain to elevate the national discourse by inviting a guy who didn’t know where Israel was.

[@GeorgeSavrille]

"Legitimately educated people" Oh brother. It's one of those comment sections.

[@zakkziegler111]

@@GeorgeSavrille Nothing about that quote is untrue, man. I don't know what your point is.

[@ZahraShah1]

I love how respectfully and creatively professor norman insults

[@ahmedsinan5162]

When you don’t have a counter argument to make benni morris: that’s good point

[@drewbewho]

Unlistenable.

[@DCwolverine]

Mr Duracell, "please stop displaying your imbecility." 😂😂😂😂

[@jeb6183]

That was stupid.

[@ahmedkhoja2279]

“ that’s a good point “

[@Kai-nh9ut]

Respect to Morris, that's how you know he's one of the good guys

[@GASmotorsports]

I found this insufferable

[@laurar3398]

As a non-native english speaker is very hard to follow the arguments when they didn't let anyone finish

[@blueberrymcphuckerson9821]

Israel Side: 🤯😡😤😠🤬🤬🤬🤡 Palestine Side:🤯😡😤😠🤬🤬🤬🤡 Lex, supposedly moderating: 🤗

[@CaDzA818]

Very true, its soo hard to listen what is even going on.

[@January99th]

It’s almost as if debates are fucking stupid and redundant

[@diogenes.]

Dude is a gamer ,why on earth would he consider himself , informed ,educated enough to open his mouth in the presence of 3 experts on the matter

[@anacc3257]

"Expert" is a vague and loose term these days. Destiny often performs better in debates than those who claim to be experts. Norman kept insulting Destiny for hours during the discussion and is very biased on the subject. Not what an "expert" typically does.

[@nkadenrs703]

@@diogenes. He was not laughing at him, you just make stuff up to make yourself feel better. There's literally no reason to even think that lmfao

[@ParadeofCrows]

@@anacc3257Wtf you mean "performs better" than experts, the dude constantly shows that he does literally nothing but form a dumbass opinion and then read wikipedia pages with that opinion in mind to "prove" is preconceived notion. He does nothing but routinelt embarrass himself and drama farm.

[@gador789]

@@ParadeofCrows By Norms own words, he read the case 4 times but still confuses "mens rea" and "dolus specialis" which is stated multiple times in the case Norm supposedly read 4 times. Norm then call Destiny a moron for pointing it out, how disingenuous can you get? Destiny also reads out the so-called quotes used in the report that were butchered and all context removed for them to fit. This is absolutely absurd.

[@ozymandias8523]

I have 50 million power on rise of kingdoms so ...

[@mountainfoot]

why does finkle sound like he has dementia

[@glasgowblackchigowski6117]

He always talked that way, it's his way of cementing an articulate point into your mind so you don't misquote him.

[@user24350]

Because your 40¢ earphones from TEMU aren't working properly

[@tengu8560]

Talking slowly it’s for you dementia? We truly live in a time were people is as superficial as they can get

[@helenakolar]

Because he does not have it. Be careful, you might get old too.

[@husnidweik5780]

I guess discussion with those two wild liars is a waste of time to the respected fellows Norman and Mouin

[@b.ballooon9225]

Growing up, who was the bad guy in movies/tv shows? Was it the guy who wanted to have conversations with people? Or was it the guy who thought he was too good to even respond to another person despite agreeing to have a debate? Finkel is acting like some noble rich elite from France before the Revolution. Finkel is the one who because he has no counter to Destiny's point, he acts like it's not even worth responding. In reality, good people respond to people they consider ignorant too, and usually have an easy time debunking them, Finkel refusing to respond with anything but Ad Homs shows how immature he is, elitist he is, and that has no real counter, if he did, he would have used it, not "motormouth" and insults. You know I'm right, Finkel was being a complete asshole in this debate, acting at the maturity level of a 12 year old but the arrogance of Aristocracy. Finkel is Joffrey from Game of Thrones.

[@kingmemf4002]

Whenever you are talking to someone whose sole objective is to "win" then you are wasting your time talking to them. They will say anything to win.

[@b.ballooon9225]

Yah, Finkel just threw ad homs and elitist gatekeeping shit, no counters at all, dude didnt' come to debate, he came to just meme.

[@doc3353]

When your best argument against someone is to insult the arguer rather than the argument you already lost.

[@CarlNipmuc]

You just described the entire value system of the western world

[@trugrit7210]

Finkelstein was there to debate someone knowledgeable on the subject. He wasn't there to debate someone who learned about the subject yesterday.

[@localistmagic641]

@@trugrit7210 This concept of character assassination/discrediting/poisoning the well is rather new to me. I've always engaged with someone's arguments regardless of who they are or how they learned their information.

[@ikramqamar7786]

Just so you know Norm wasn't there to destiny. He doesn't have Time to argue with kids who learned about the issue just one day ago. He was there to debate someone else.

[@Tigo625]

@@CarlNipmuc Science and reason were invented by the Western world.

[@seanskywalka5172]

Should have mentioned the psychotic "Amelek" Bible reference Pipi Netanyahoo quoted: Genocidal Intent 💯

[@b.ballooon9225]

Should also mention Putin's Nova Russiya stuff, it is relevant because Norm calls himself an anti-Imperialist yet supports Russia who is way more Imperialist than Israel, way more settler colonialism, way more ethnic cleansings, gulags instead of ghettos, its way worse. 300,000 Muslims killed in Chechnya. Hundreds of thousands dying in Ukraine, you cannot hate Israel but not Russia, it's pure hypocrisy.

[@ShnizzleBedizzle]

I am glad mister's Bowlelli's idiocity is on camera-display as per his wish; this thing was so fun xD !

[@jamesshepherd9390]

And now your idiocy is on public display in this comments section, as per your wish.

[@ImotekhtheStormlord-tx2it]

how can you call destiny dumb after watching it ... am asking bcuz destiny literally won this debate 80 to 20. you are literally either 40 yo man who cant accept the truth and lives in a fairy land or youre just destiny hate watcher

[@chrispember172]

i think hes mocking finklestein@@ImotekhtheStormlord-tx2it

[@A.s.s.777]

@@ImotekhtheStormlord-tx2itdo you think like you write?

[@owene.ahearn902]

Finkelstein needs to chill with the insults

[@chazlewis8114]

Bravo, Signor Borelli.

[@bobwilkinsonguitar6142]

Imagine being neighbors with Norm Finkelstein

[@Khairee22]

It will better life rather than being neighbor with Israhell

[@PERRYTHEPROPHET]

You will learn everyday something new! Imagine being neighbors to this moron with his Wikipedia Knowledge and his girly name!

[@Morbinhood38385]

​@@Khairee22 still better than the jihadis

[@VherrToIs]

I will be honored

[@judyclarkson5887]

​@@Morbinhood38385Israhell, Israelsh1tes 😂

[@user-rs1zb8iy5i]

Wow regardless of how I feel mr morris actually conceding that a good point was made shows he is somewhat open to an actual discussion and not just blabbering off his talking points and staying deaf dumb and blind to the other side

[@doesntmatter4136]

unfortunately this doesn't apply to the people on the other side of the table.

[@ihsahnakerfeldt9280]

@doesntmatter4136f Doesn't apply to the Wikipedia researcher either

[@breakupgoogle]

never does to zionists @@doesntmatter4136

[@elhattabbachir3919]

⁠@@doesntmatter4136 I mean, people on all sides agreed that they could all incorporate extreme Palestinian statements as the basis of their argument. the problem with this kind of discussion is that one side (mr morris and destiny) refutes things that are considered common sense in the discussion, throughout this debate you notice that one side keeps saying: do you agree at least on this point? I've been debating for a long time, and to me it's a clear indicator of intellectual dishonesty.

[@JBHACKSAW]

​@ihsahnakerfeldt9280 and yet he is the only one who has the ability to acknowledge Palestinians had a just cause in 1948. Rabbani literally said in successive sentences that October 7th was justified but 'swords of iron' was not. Even when hamas held hostages after raping indiscriminately and murdering 850 civilians in a coordinated attack on individual homes. Shameless, one sided and rightfully powerless.

[@yair1010]

About that last statement, they never even had a country in the first place.

[@defconbrown8667]

HAHAHA! The best part of this debate as that Destiny is the only one who knows dolus specialis - For an act to be classified as genocide, it is essential to demonstrate that the perpetrators had a deliberate and specific aim (dolus specialis) to physically destroy the group based on its real or perceived nationality, ethnicity, race, or religion. On a panel of lifelong historians about Israeli genocide, only the 35 year old podcaster actually knows the law. HAHAHAHAHA!!!!

[@toneloke454]

👏👏👏 exactly, there’s so much cope here from the norm fans, all they can do is act like saying his make different ways is somehow owning him. Norm is a fraud, always has been

[@CashMoneyMoore]

I love the little subtle touch at 6:12 to quietly say "Hey Norm shutup let me make this point"

[@b.ballooon9225]

Exactly, Norm is the one being incredibly rude, throwing only ad homs and interrupting and distracting from the points. I don't think he engaged with a single one of Destiny's points. People who say it's not worth engaging, always are cowards with no real points to counter with. It's an excuse, an elitist aristocratic one too. People as arrogant and holior than thou and elitist as Finkel are the worst.

[@Mimi90353]

Was there an open bar before this? 😅

[@User-ts2jj]

Lex finally got his moment

[@mmakid]

Use personal insult and ask someone to shut up should be an automatic defeat

[@stanpennycook5414]

Not if there talking utter rubbish but it always seems that its like a Jewish fight no fists thrown but lots of shouting and abuse but these lightweights can't compete with Norman Finkelstines intellect he seems to have read everything on this subject and will quote chapter and verse of UN ICJ rules and regulations I think he's marvelous a sane voice in amongst the criminal insane.

[@JET7C0]

"Destiny" sarcastically asked him if he "even read the report". I don't get how everyone's pointing out Finkelstein's insults, while ignoring it's in reaction to a sarcastic insult in the first place, as if sarcastically asking "did you even read the report" is a sophisticated and reasonable argument.

[@zorbacosum1978]

@@RusticKey if you don't know the difference between mens rea and dolus specialis that has been used 4 times in the said report that you claim you have read 4 times, it's a normal pertinent question. So called "expert"... what a buffoon...

[@elhattabbachir3919]

⁠@@zorbacosum1978what about mr morris double standard about the extreme politician statements ? Isn’t that buffoon behavior?

[@elhattabbachir3919]

@@zorbacosum1978 can you give me the difference between « means rea » and « dolus specialis » ?

[@AlenAbdula]

Who won so I can support them?

[@garrettsaylor2739]

This is honestly funny af

[@j.a.6310]

Israel seems to be winning more than the rape squad toilet rocket guys, so hop on.

[@LeonEdwards-lt1bn]

Destiny got destroyed

[@maroonblood151]

@@LeonEdwards-lt1bnby insults and no counter argument. Gotcha.

[@rap1897]

Benny morris corrected all of them Norman was the worst part of this debate like it or not Just insults no counter argument Pure disappointment

[@darraghkane18]

Destiny dosent belong in this room. i would love to see Pape and Morris talk it out.

[@b.ballooon9225]

Finkel doesn't belong in the room, 40 years and he has nothing but insults and "gotchas" to bring to this discussion, he was a drain on the whole convo, Destiny learned more in a few months than that brainwashed Charlie HEbdo shooting defending crazy pop historian.

[@55Andreas55]

Why doesn’t Lex direct this more? He has to make sure they dont talk over each other. I couldn’t hear anything.

[@Tensa_Zangetsu1222]

Destiny is literally scrolling through wiki how is he fit for the debate he didn't even knew about this topic before October 7th

[@b.ballooon9225]

How is Finkel fit for a debate when he doesn't have good footnotes, constanlty references his own writing, defends the Charlie Hebdo shootings, and Russian Imperialism. Did you notice all my criticism were legitimate, about principles and real beliefs? While yours are just "Wiki wariror hur dur elitism silecne all non ivy leaguge people hur dur hur dur" You're all ad homs, at least my issues with Finkel have to do with his beliefs and writings, your issue with Destiny is just you don't like him. That's not a good counter.

[@theetiologist9539]

don't know who is right, but every time Norm opens his mouth I feel a little more stupid. The other guy on that side of the table should have been doing more talking.

[@crunkalac]

Hmmm is erasing an entire people wrong or not? Gee idk who is right here? Its so complicated.

[@mentalisme]

Damn