Personal Choice Debate with Sinatra Says

[@pathocrat]

"Something exceptional can happen everyday." Statistics debunked.

[@Skelliiie]

C man, you cant be real LOL

[@cman8464]

I know this just seems unbelievable, but watch those videos and come back to me.

[@probablypragmatic6893]

C man, troll of the day award 🤣

[@cman8464]

Not trolling, nor is this an argument against me with merit. Can one of you not engage with me?

[@Bobogdan258]

Not interested in a debate, not interested to argue, you're just spamming this conspiracy theory for no reason.

[@lambspoo]

Destiny is completely wrong here. Sinatra Says and Cognitive Thought prove you can grow up having no idea what your talking about, and still make the choice to become semi successful youtube sceptics.

[@Spencerwalker21]

Lol

[@paddyd50gamer86]

Omg I just read the start of this comment and thought you seriously thought Sinatra was wrong and then I read the rest of the comment haha

[@jerrickmarques8777]

oof

[@MrAllallalla]

5:30 to skip to the debate

[@KOLN555]

2:12:09 to skip the debate

[@anarchyintheusa4443]

Thanks I don't wanna be an electrician lol

[@barackobama0101]

KOLN555 u tried to trick me, didn’t u?>:)

[@nonameneeded2943]

Thank you

[@davidkafka2452]

So, in Destiny's side we have statistics and on Sinatra's side we have "faith" in the "common sense" of humanity. How the hell do these people get away with calling themselves rationalists?

[@colinsmith929]

because they have meme phrases like "If You Are Not a Liberal at 25, You Have No Heart. If You Are Not a Conservative at 35 You Have No Brain"

[@GynocentrismWatch]

Because their audiences comprise of people who already agreed with their politics before they started talking.

[@niandraladie2953]

@@GynocentrismWatch YESSS. I have had that samw thought a few months ago! I've been unsubbed to Sinatra. No hate towards him though, I've just moved on from Matthew and disagree with a lot of his views now.

[@GynocentrismWatch]

@@niandraladie2953 Also I have yet to meet or see a self-described "conservative" who isn't at best naïve, or at worst a manipulative, hypocritical, liar. Not to say the Left doesn't have it's fair share of disingenuous people (i.e. Cosmopolitan, RationalWiki, Riley Dennis, TYT, etc.) but anyone can name a political commentator on the Right and I can explain why I either despise them or can't trust what they say.

[@tcritt]

@Rogan-Joe Sloan *ass

[@Darm0k]

Sinatra: "I get what you're saying." Narrator: "He didn't get what he was saying."

[@katobytes]

What? Data? Be right back, pal. I got something of my own right here... ... C O M M O N S E N S E

[@artisanmage5378]

KatoBytes your pfp just makes it better.

[@red2theelectricboogaloo961]

comon sens yes hmm i do hav comon sens

[@tcritt]

Sargon made these exact same shitty arguments.

[@snowballeffect7812]

Yeah, and this guy makes sargon look like a person with a nearly normal IQ.

[@tcritt]

They are all up for talking about cause and effect, just as long as the buck stops at the moment black people have to make a decision. For some reason they are unwilling to look at the possible causes of those decisions. And they wonder why people accuse them of racism.

[@snowballeffect7812]

root-cause analysis is common sense. if you piss on the toilet lid, and make a mess, you don't keep fucking pissing with the lid down, do you? it's common sense to analyze why the mess occurred and then adjust accordingly.

[@tcritt]

Saying "not an argument" makes you look like a div, especially if you follow up with a fallacious argument.

[@snowballeffect7812]

statistics and science. did you watch the fucking video? for example. why are commenting on this youtube video? you have access to a computer, nothing better to do, so you comment. someone without internet is statistically less likely to comment in this thread. i don't understand why you expect everyone to fucking climb mount Everest like somehow all they need to do is decide they want to do it. you don't grow up with the same priorities in the ghetto. if you're busy trying to survive, you don't have a lot of time to think about thriving. no one teaches black people to set up an ira or college fund or safe sex. access to education informs you of your options. please either have some empathy or go live in the ghetto for a year and see if you can do better.

[@BiscuitAWitch]

Perhaps the greatest comment ever; in chat at 1:53:10 _amutinatux: _*_reluctantly concedes that physics is a thing_*

[@Alic4444]

lolllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllll

[@shinohidanzetsu]

1:55:46 "We're not reptiles by the way... we're not Hillary Clinton." Why didn't he say this at the beginning of the "debate" I could've saved 2 hours.

[@enlightenednormie242]

@@NeoIsrafil 🤣🤣🤣

[@lucascoval828]

@@NeoIsrafil THERE IT IS!!!! 😡😡😡

[@RappleJackson]

The one thing Destiny doesn't touch on enough in these "personal agency" debates (I'm only 40 minutes in so he might get to it later) is the idea that people are unintentionally making the wrong choice and their environments are convincing them that the choice they ARE making is correct. The reason why "ghetto people" may make fun of a student who tries to get into college is that the people making fun GENUINELY BELIEVE that trying to get into college is the WRONG choice to make. Destiny started to get to this point with the stock market, but then the topic changed. Everyone who was 18 by 1980 could have invested in Apple, however very few people (as a proportion of the population) had the information to believe that was a good idea. For many people the risk would have seemed a BAD idea (investing $100 when you only have $101 is a big risk). The exceptions to the probable response are those that either a) had an external influence that forced them to have better information or b) ignored the information from their environment that they were making a bad choice and made it anyway. Individuals have agency, but the environment is largely what determines the legitimacy of an individual's choice.

[@adasilva95]

Agreed

[@iang7244]

This is a year late, but great point.

[@Jrez]

I need to know where the next Apple is to put my $100

[@movimentodoscacos]

Yeah, about the "ghetto people" thing, this might be because it's so hard and rare that one of them gets into college that they might see trying to get into it as a pipe dream or something, so in their mind is kinda ridiculous to try when it's so improbable you're actualy getting there.

[@janewaynegacy4156]

Did someone actually criticize Destiny for being “data driven?” How terrible for relying on real world, measurable statistics!!! Smh 🤦🏼‍♀️ The difference is Destiny is looking at the world as it is and not as a fantasy a.k.a how it “ought to be”

[@word_dog]

wait he won the debate in 15 minutes so why is this 2 hours long

[@c9plms823]

1:27:25 "I don't think that appealing to common sense is an appeal to emotion" That sentence, in itself, is an appeal to emotion

[@qwerty22421]

How can I be a wiki philosopher like you

[@qwerty22421]

:))) You're right it was question, good eye

[@P4shaPlays]

@TheEsotericZebra "Appeal to emotion or argumentum ad passiones is a logical fallacy characterized by the manipulation of the recipient's emotions in order to win an argument, *especially in the absence of factual evidence*" The exact thing that Destiny asked Sinatra to provide like 6 times, yet never got.

[@PedroTricking]

+kire Stop forcing memes, that's bs

[@Dinobot2]

Destiny: "Are You a Liberterian?" Sinatra: "I don't really have a political [mic cuts off]. I'm pro-gun rights, pro gay-marriage, fiscally conservative." But he's not libertarian!!

[@sundrelstriker7513]

0🤣🤣🤣🤣

[@NikkolasKing]

Sinatra brought up smoking cigarettes? Seriously? The fact almost nobody smokes now refutes his entire idiotic individualistic argument. There are less people who smoke now because of societal influence and pressure ie. Destiny's entire point. Less women go into STEM because of societal influences and pressure, like being raised with dolls that teach them how babies go potty instead of being given video games. Fuck. this is frustrating.

[@Santr4]

Nikkolas Mical Rick and Morty should be a mandatory class in school for women

[@badams2190]

I like that he said the consequence of him smoking is one more person smoking. Like of all the consequences to smoking, he gives a non consequence.

[@El-Silver]

Social influences? Really ? I mean sure back then it was look as a good thing But I always thought people left if first and for most for the health reasons In the terms of what women and career's well I have to investigate on that But as of now it's both a biological and societal thing

[@subzoronltd7779]

Destiny actually said himself that even in a perfectly egalitarian society, it still won't be 50/50 in every profession between men and women. There are definitely cultural/sexist reasons why some fields are unusually skewed towards one gender, but there are also biological reasons behind it too. It's a mixture of both environment and nature.

[@DarthRevan823]

Nikkolas Mical it’s frustrating that you think everyone makes their choices based on society pressuring them when in reality it’s because they don’t want to go into STEM sorry that you’re just stupid 🤷🏻‍♂️

[@ZachEngelman]

"...It's the individuals choice to suck." Sinatra 2017

[@dislike_button33]

He's not wrong.

[@lucascoval828]

Woah that dude said that? Seriously? BASED. 😎😎😎

[@XXgamemaster]

This Libertarian Free Will notion is ridiculous and I hope Destiny refuses to debate this topic again in the future because EVERY TIME he corners his opponent, they will always appeal to the "well, it's their choice", with absolutely NO regard to the external factors that undeniably influences those choices. It takes a more intellectually honest person to acknowledge that life is not as simple as it turns out be, and that perhaps the individual should not bear all the responsibility.

[@stuntcock42]

> they will always appeal to the "well, it's their choice", with absolutely NO regard to the external factors that undeniably influences those choices Sinatra was worse than that. He repeatedly acknowledged the existence and relevance of external factors, but mostly as a dishonest means of deflecting the obvious rebuttal. We can understand the societal factors which hold someone back and we can sympathize with the less-fortunate ... but unless a person is physically *incapable* of making the correct decision, we must eventually discard all of the nuance and judge them based on 100% free will. Because if we show mercy to an illiterate starving orphan kid who joined a gang, then that might encourage other kids to join gangs. On a statistical level, circumstances pressure people to make suboptimal choices ... but I'm going to oppose any measure (e.g. sex education and free condoms) which might ameliorate those circumstances. Because teenagers without access to contraception can obviously *choose* not to have sex, and we must ensure that there's a *consequence* (more accurately: a penalty) for choosing incorrectly. Sure, we can talk about advertising and role models and gender norms. I'll string you along for a while and pretend to be reasonable. But if women don't go into STEM, and if there's no gunpoint coercion, then that's irrefutable evidence that women don't *want* to go into STEM. Case closed! We live in the most free society in human history! (please ignore the dozens of other "most free" examples from history which are very shitty by contemporary standards, and please don't think about whether future historians will judge our own society as misogynistic. Couverture isn't a thing anymore and sex discrimination is technically illegal, so everything is cool.) The one important concession that Sinatra made was that a person born into poverty might be able to move only one "step"; that they could *not* actually become a millionaire but that someday their grandchildren might. But then the discussion got bogged down into equality-of-outcome versus equality-of-opportunity and never really came back. And of course Sinatra's definition of "equality of opportunity" is stupid: "do you have any opportunity whatsoever? Yes/No? If yes then congratulations, you have exactly as much agency as Warren Buffett! Everyone has different opportunities, so go out there and remake the world in your image!" It was very frustrating to hear him repeatedly assert the compatibility of social pressure and individual decision-making, because he believes in free agency which is strong enough to overpower all social constraints. If he was being honest he would say that social pressures are irrelevant to John Galt. Since he's not interested in establishing a factual basis for his arguments, he might as well lean into the fictional narrative.

[@wfjhDUI]

It'd be interesting to hear one of these "it's their choice" types be honest about this and take the stance "Sure, society creates an uneven playing field, so what?".

[@heyRero]

0

[@heyRero]

Pp

[@heyRero]

00

[@jamesmiller6618]

The fact that he refused to admit that “Common Sense” is an appeal to emotion is absolutely hilarious

[@LordHengun]

A few things I would have wanted to see Destiny push harder on: - Take the ball analogy further. When the dude admits that you can predict a ball, ask him what the ball is made of. When you get down to atoms and shit, ask him if we can predict atoms perfectly in theory. If we can, and he also acknowledges that the brain is made of matter and isn't magical, he's stuck. (hardcore determinism has its own problems when you reach quantum levels, but for the sake of this argument it's fine) - Push him on why he's not concerned with preventing people from making bad choices. He's clearly only concerned with dealing with the consequences of people's choices, but LITERALLY said that he doesn't care about WHY people make bad choices. What is better; a murderer being duly punished for his crime or the murder not happening to begin with? I suppose it would be "fine" to only deal with problem behaviors after the fact if the negative consequences only affected the person making the choice (and even then, I would argue that it's ethical to save people from themselves if we have the ability) but clearly bad choices hurt other people. - Let's imagine someone put a gun to Sinatra's head and put him in front of a man. He has to guess; is this man a sewage worker or a florist? If he gets it wrong, he gets shot. Now, would he HONESTLY say that it's a coin toss? Would he not be able to look at tendencies in society and say that dude's more likely to be a sewage worker than a florist, or would he stand his ground and say "nope, there's literally no way for me to make an educated guess because THIS PERSON IS AN INDIVIDUAL WITH COMPLETE AND UNFETTERED AGENCY, there's just no way for me to guess"? - The sheer fucking irony of someone who calls himself "Cognitive Thought" who doesn't believe in math. Does he REALLY think that statisticians haven't thought of ways of calculating representative sample sizes? It's always fun to see people "outsmart" statisticians by saying shit like "WELLLLLLLL actually if you only poll people from New York or only from DC you're gonna get different results." Yeah, exactly, which is why nobody fucking does that.

[@Nsaf_UKR]

I look for your comments, just to lyk. I have these arguments alot

[@Enthos2]

This is so frustrating to listen to No one's saying there aren't some people who naturally make smarter choices than other people or that a decision shouldn't have consequences. The POINT is that, to the extent possible, we should design society so that people tend to make better choices for themselves and those around them. Why the fuck is that so hard to understand. Fuck.

[@horizon92lee]

Amazing Someone can talk so much and make zero sense

[@dislike_button33]

I don't know, but Destiny is quite good at it.

[@outback3587]

@@53104 Sounds like it

[@felipecesar883]

How can anyone even dare to say that your past experiences, surrounding and the people around you, that they have no affect on the choices you make? He is just not being honest and won't concede that he is wrong on this.

[@kjronning1]

Considering that all those things you listed are what make you you, yeah this guy is super dumb.

[@joninosaka]

This is what an college-educated middle-aged adult debating with a high school sophomore feels like.

[@jjmah7]

Ironically, Steven doesn’t have a college education

[@nadiedeinteres1285]

This guy's most viewed videos are clips from the Joe Rogan podcast, how classic

[@xXMisterTempestXx]

This guy would go insane, if he didn't have a reason to justify human misery. It's so convenient to blame the individual while at the same time external forces are keeping them poor.

[@sulimanthemagnificent4893]

am i wrong to assume your a communist i am just curious

[@red2theelectricboogaloo961]

@@sulimanthemagnificent4893 yes you are there was nothing to indicate it. i could guess he is some type of leftist or at least a liberal but there's no indication he's communist

[@sulimanthemagnificent4893]

@@red2theelectricboogaloo961 fair enough, i made that comment long ago when i was uneducated (or rather a fool) when it came to poltics.

[@red2theelectricboogaloo961]

@@sulimanthemagnificent4893 no thats okay im not trying to say you are or were dumb and bad. i'm just correcting maybe its okay if you make a mistake

[@sulimanthemagnificent4893]

@@red2theelectricboogaloo961 no no, i understand what you meant, no need to apologise.

[@Jrez]

People make CHOICES, so why don't we create a situation that allows them to make the BEST choices for themselves. Acting like asking "why?" is always irrelevant to the fact of the situation is completely ignorant and irresponsible. So many people are surprisingly incapable of having this discussion. Sinatra seems completely blind to his own biases and can't even seem to understand what Destiny was actually saying vs what SinatraSays was hearing.

[@Jrez]

Somebody put a gun to my head and told me to steal a loaf of bread, but that was my choice to do it in order not to get domed.

[@Boulder7685]

It was your own decisions that put you in that situation, bud. It was common sense that on that particular day in that particular place you would be held at gunpoint of course. /s

[@brianogle1119]

I feel that even though Sinatra said a lot that I disagree with, I actually appreciate the fact that he came in being a lot more reasonable and level headed than a lot of other people.

[@thesolidsalad7338]

Hes a cool guy

[@assuming9735]

Whenever someone starts off a conversation with "I saw your discussion with Mr. Mediocre," I already know this debate is going to be stupid.

[@amaysaxena2]

Statistics got destroyed in this debate

[@fredyrosales295]

Common sense says you are right.

[@drewinsects]

his argument is basically "you have free will over everything that you do, that your upbringing/environment only gives a little insight on what you will be interested in/do when you're older and that people's desire to do certain things are just from you and not psychologically handed to you/driven from your surroundings". Like not trying to be mean but holy fuck. Put two kids in different situations, give kid A a gaming console at a young age, have enough money to buy certain games he likes, have friends that love games and be surrounded by others who generally have enough money for video games. Now give kid B no video games where his parents don't have enough money for a gaming system and have him surrounded by kids who are also too poor to own video games. Now you're going to tell me that kid B is going to have the same drive and interest in video game fields growing up compared to kid A? This guy seems like he only sees these stats at face value and chalks the underwhelming representation of a certain group in a certain field to "that's just what they like" even though if you were to have the same society with a constant research team documenting them without any change that those underwhelming stats of a certain group will always be predominant. His whole argument is just trying to explain a situation in which is only being looked at from surface value without getting into the reasons why.

[@Petrich0r591]

I couldn't tell if that Sinatra guy actually didn't see the correlation between probability and results or if he was being willfully ignorant.

[@Clueman778]

19:30 Member when Tonkasaw was just an entity in the chat who didn’t speak? I member.

[@JoshBeach]

This guy: "Sure, circumstances can play a role in life, but I want to blame poor people for being poor, so it's actually most about personal choice."

[@red2theelectricboogaloo961]

is sinatra's whole argument actually just "statistical aberrations exist within datasets; therefore free will"

[@warilban]

Destiny made the choice to get completely destroyed in this debate.

[@bgilley8199]

One thing I'll never understand is how people like Sinatra seem completely unaware of something called the working poor. Making the decision to work does not automatically lift a person out of poverty. There are millions of people working full time, and especially before the recent minimum wage increases, who are still mired in poverty. Work and poverty are by no means mutually exclusive.

[@stevenvitals697]

"Biology is a soft-science" LOL, take Biochem and say that again. Don't talk about shit you don't understand.

[@drewinsects]

kat blaque has never said that it's transphobic to not want to date trans women? lol what

[@jimcornbread5167]

Yeah what the hell was he talking about?

[@Casual23523]

imao Destiny literally watched Kats video on it afterwards and she was saying the EXACT OPPOSITE of what he said. This Sinatra guy is a moron.

[@dubsteak]

"I decided to get into building computers" yeah because everyone can just go buy PC parts ...

[@Boulder7685]

Hey dude, you could still just look into computer building on websites like KZbin... that require Internet... and a functioning computer... Huh.

[@Hito_Hito_Fruit_model_UncleSam]

Anyone can just buy computer parts. You can build your own computer from the ground up.

[@taylorsouthall4095]

@@Hito_Hito_Fruit_model_UncleSam their argument isn't "it is impossible to buy pc parts" but "some people cannot afford to do so in the first place"

[@badsocks756]

This conversation: survivorship bias.

[@jackhammer2002]

The stand in got a little upsetti spaghetti.

[@RS-ky4qg]

This is the story of a guy who Just. Doesn't. Get it. I don't know how Destiny has so much patience with these people

[@randomuser1687]

Snowflake detected

[@carlmencia2919]

This is frustrating, because Sinatra later acknowledged the predictive validity of IQ when talking with Naked Ape and JF, so he concedes that there are factors that influence are decisions that are beyond the individual's control. Christ.

[@Feeshyenjoyer]

Carl Mencia i know, it frustrates me because they agree that nature plays a role , the rest is just destiny talking about how you are very likely to stay at your income level and sinatra talking about how individuals have the ability to get out of their situation . After that they basically have a language barier as they talk about different things, one talking about the statistics of people staying in the same place, and the other explains how some people get out of that.

[@jimgrand8514]

The girls and video game topic is a funny one that we learned about in advertising. We screwed up we assumed women didn't like guys because they really weren't playing them at first. The answer was most early games were space shooters that women just weren't that interested in. We put the cart before the horse and didn't learn this till Pacman who was enjoyed by both. By this time the 2600 was out for about three years so all the marketing was targeted at boys in that time. Once a culture has a stigma it is hard to correct. You need to spend money to do it which has risks. This didn't change till the DS I believe where their market share almost reach equal amounts in NA.

[@haruhirogrimgar6047]

Sort of funny how well this lines up anecdotally for me. The only game my Gen X Mom talks about fondly from her youth is Ms. Pacman. And my Gen Y sister was the first to ask for and get a Nintendo DS.

[@Breggo1]

Be flattered, I made it 45 minutes into this. The problem here is that Sinatra does not understand the idea that we are often at conflict with ourselves. In a sense, it is as if he is talking about the human mind, but not the body.

[@FJBRDALLAS]

People who think personal responsibility is the end all of any issue must stay the fuck away from politics and power positions. To say "oh well, personal responsibility" Does not do FUCK ALL about anything. Mr president what is your plan to deter gun violence? Uhm personal responsibility? What about the growing number of poor people? .. Personal responsibility.... What about climate change? MUH PERSONALLLL RESPONSIBILITYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY

[@OHIOspikey]

I love it when people make up facts, or they believe facts that they do not verify through a credible source, but parade around as if they possess true, verifiable facts. 11:05 We do not live in the most free country in the world. People regard themselves as less free than other countries. We rank #17th in freedom, according to the Cato Institute. You can find similar results from academic institutions that study this. I've seem us ranked much lower than this before. PG 7 for quick info. object.cato.org/sites/cato.org/files/human-freedom-index-files/2017-human-freedom-index-2.pdf 13:04 We do not have "The highest rate of wealth mobility ever." Miles Corak from the University of Ottawa studied this, as many people from different academic institutions. Again, you see basically the same results from each of these studies. Here are some countries that have higher wealth mobility than the U.S. France, Japan, Germany, New Zealand, Australia, Canada, Sweden, Finland, Norway, and Denmark. Again, Pg 3 for easy access. citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.420.5013&rep=rep1&type=pdf Arguments built on falsehoods never lead you to any sort of truth, but bring you farther away from it.

[@BADVIBES258]

Yet in the world of wealth if you earn minimum wage are work 40 hours a week you are in the top 10%.

[@cute-pat00t]

did you know that if a libertarian/conservative doesn't say the word choice at least 100 times a day they get a migraine? The word "choice" is now my trigger

[@haruhirogrimgar6047]

For me it has been "common sense."

[@Fangleader627]

At 2:01:31

[@TheYungDyrude]

CLOSE ONE BOYS SWEATSTINY

[@assuming9735]

My favorite part of the stream

[@5TailFox]

"What is data-driven?" Give it up, Homie...You're already dead. You're just walkin' around not knowing it.

[@sknight874]

We have the lowest social mobility in the developed world, he straight up lies.

[@JohnDoe-dg5oo]

Saying that someone is transphobic for not being willing to date trans people was a huge debate on the rajj show and I believe both Alebrelle and Izzy argued it.

[@amandagarcia2848]

How can people be this dense when it comes to statistics and logic?!

[@ThePainkiller9995]

Had to stop watching 1 hour in. Guy is literally braindead. Destiny truly has the patience of a saint

[@CrabtechIndustries]

This guy has kids? Fuck me, we're done for.

[@drankyourmilkshake4511]

People have common sense ?? Really ?? I watch the poorest people put the last of their money into state lottery every day (and they genuinely believe they will win). I can’t listen to this guy, he has no idea what he’s talking about.

[@BADVIBES258]

That is a lack of value. And can be statistically shown that people given free shit will do less and not value it and abuse it.

[@monkeyhighlord4412]

why dont i become an engineer? because im choosing not to thats your ego talking bud

[@AJHornet1]

I cannot express how valuable this exchange is. Thanks Destiny.

[@Sindragozer]

Did you see the Creationist Cat video about the debate/discussion you had with Lauren Southern, Fumblin' Fuentes, Theryn, Contra, and All Bullshit? It's pretty great, you should check it out Destiny!

[@jesussaves6625]

Obviously Destiny doesn't really understand what being in a bad financial situation is. Even in his description of his own "fucked situaton", he owned a home, obviously has transportation, had just come from a well paying job, and made 2000 bucks a month. Not well off but also definitely not in the kind of desperate situation of a person that would need to take out a payday loan. It's pretty condescending how he says "I would NEVER take out a payday loan. They're a terrible idea". I think he really does believe, like Sinatra was saying, that people who are "below him" are just too stupid to figure out how to do better. He's an exceptional person and he had it so good. All those other poor slobs could never do what he did. It's really kind of infuriating to watch him. And just because people are affected by their environment, what then? You're never responsible for anything ever again? Because every person is shaped by externalities, so every choice they make is not really their own? Also, he didn't do a very good job explaining the Milgram experiment.

[@axlglenn2156]

Justine Spink So Why do most people born into poverty stay in poverty?

[@jesussaves6625]

@@axlglenn2156 I believe that most people who are born into poverty stay poor because of what they have been exposed to, but that doesn't mean they don't have the option to change their circumstances once they realize what they've been missing out on. Some people really don't care if they stay poor. They value the immediate gratification of whatever they're doing more than they value the hard work and patience it takes to get into a "better" situation

[@axlglenn2156]

Justine Spink Change how? Like get into good schools get a good job? Kinda hard when you have a crackhead father, bunch of kids you have to take care of and on top of all that maybe racially discriminated against by law enforcement and when you’re looking for a job.. it’s kinda hard for some people to get out of poverty. Like what “choice” do some rly have? It’s not a glorious life living on welfare.. nobody wants to do crime.

[@lexaray5]

If we know that most people who are born into poverty stay poor because of what they have been exposed to, then why not make policy change based on this fact? Why not focus on creating more opportunities for poor people to make better "decisions" instead of generally rewarding those that had those opportunities to begin with and punishing those who didn't? I'm not saying that people can't seemingly overcome their individual circumstances, just that we can predict how people will generally behave. So why not do what will make people generally behave better?

[@sulimanthemagnificent4893]

@@axlglenn2156 because of govt intervention

[@Ashtonyss]

This guy must be a Sargon fan. He's just regurgitating his points over and over again.

[@lucascoval828]

No. Not even close.

[@300y1]

How the fuck do people even have these world views?

[@nocuh]

Some audio bits: Old school subs were typically 8ohm, then 4. Single voice coils. Competition subs were commonly seen low as 2ohms, then 1ohm. Contemporary subs are mostly dual voice coil, to handle/be wired for more power. Each design & impedance will yield difference sound, both have diff strengths (SQLvSPL). The dirty secret is no 2 drivers, made consecutively, sound _exactly_ alike due to the manufacturing process. Pre-mosfet class AB amps back in the day were only stable down to 4ohms until the high current-or-high power stuff was released in the 80s by brands like Orion & PPI. Suddenly you could take a 2ch amp '12v rated' for 40w x 2ch at 4ohm, and bridge to mono with (16) 8ohm subs in an array pushing over 1200w x 1ch at 1ish ohm for block-rocking kaboom. They used to call those "cheater amps" because the amps were conservatively rated, sometimes

[@nocuh]

Dude's mic cutting out every other statement is triggering af, gave me flashbacks to y2k celly service...but I had to tap out for the night at "I think I know what that is" re: probability. Oooooof dude.

[@ryankelsey642]

You're really good at pushing these types of people into corners where they have to try to squirm their way out to save face. These are the most fun debates to listen to.

[@andrewb214]

Impedance gets added together in series. Z1+Z2=Ztotal. In parallel its (Z1*Z2)/(Z1+Z2)

[@greynearing4822]

That Jango thing at the end was pure genius. Destiny’s response about individual potential was equally amazing. The whole agonizing video was worth this exchange.

[@Findme1reason]

I think this debate shows that when someone says to Destiny "I know what you're saying" he needs to ask them to repeat his point back at him.

[@MrJesusisreal]

"I'm going with multiple intuitions and emotional feels"

[@recordatron]

My feeeeels...they're reeeeaals!

[@pissedmonke8702]

Watching this debate has given me the sudden and powerful urge to vandalize Frank Sinatra memorabilia.

[@druhodges6759]

Why didn’t Sinatra choose to get a microphone that wasn’t such shit?

[@mrtheluckybucket]

Probably didn’t want to spend like 500 dollars on a mic for KZbin?

[@awoofer]

Wait did Ayden really call herself a social scientist? Doesn't she have a degree in media phycology and at the same time manages to have severe biases that most social scientists would be able to avoid? I think the "debating female pol tard" video was her.

[@SamI-bs5mm]

She flip flops and lies a lot.

[@CrabtechIndustries]

Given the 5 minutes of electrical talk at the beginning and the super abrupt ending, was there an error in the editing of this video?

[@cameranishere]

Pro gay rights wow this is old

[@ArktosBears]

I think Sinatra Says should come back once he has finished basic education

[@jacobinite2384]

It's amazing to me that after 2 hours Destiny actually managed to nail down the fundamental difference in their argument: humans are metaphysical, and then he just goes on and ends up dodging it by switching to a viewer question at 1:58:50. I'm glad I listened to understand where this personal choice thing ends up boiling down to, also it was funny listening to the viewer call in and talk about how the entire field of statistics is wrong. UK Education, LUL.

[@ImperatorZed]

Destiny is like a fly. He gets attracted by piles of shit like this in every debate.

[@geekaleek]

*OH MY GOD these Ben Shapiro logic lords are so damn annoying and disingenuous*

[@danhill3302]

This guy just wants an excuse to look down on other people by jumping right to the consequences, he's not interested at all in the "why" because it would shatter that notion. He also is incredibly attached to arguing from a just/perfect world, but something tells me it's only when it is in benefit to him.

[@MysterySchoolMS]

I hope you post the the "post debate discussion" tomorrow. That shit would answer a lot of questions in this comment section.

[@Frasergdf19]

Destiny's biggest mistake in this debate was talking about socialisation rather than opportunities. It's a much easier argument to make because it gets away from the nebulous "ghetto culture" stuff. When positive opportunities are more limited fewer people will be able to take advantage of them. It's that simple. Just posit a very small society with two schools, a public one with poor funding resulting in fewer educational programmes, shitty resources and overworked teachers and a private one which is the polar opposite and press Sinatra et al. on what the distributions of life success are likely to be from each.

[@sulimanthemagnificent4893]

you want to know why the public schools are shit, parents do not have choice if they object to something they staff just go, get fucked we are doing the best we can, private schools are "better" in the fact that the parent(s) can interject and wont get shut down that way, in essence public schools are fucked because you can just fuck off and the school does not suffer even a little bit

[@TheL88t]

This is why we need to implement strategies to allow equal opportunities in low social gradient areas. This poor soul doesn't realize how uneducated he is. Children are unable, at a certain age, to make decisions based on right and wrong there is no decision making process you simply follow what others do and experience the outcome yourself. It is understandable for a young person living in horrible conditions to also become a horrible person. That isn't their 'choice' it is merely the result of a series of experiences that have lead to that point.

[@sulimanthemagnificent4893]

yeah and if they live in a shit spot it is because of there situation at birth therefore ,if an outside factor is influencing there situation, like say i dunno govt, then shouldn't the blame therefore be on govt (not this is a hypothetical because if i give proof that govt has fucked up every one will be all over me like cockroaches even though i stated facts)

[@sexyjamal7774]

42:47 How is it not our problem when all those unwanted children grow up to be criminals, need special (more expensive) education or whatever?

[@vanigarcia1234]

What happened to Sinatra say KZbin channel

[@BITCOIlN]

I'm trying to find him too xD he disappeared from the face of Earth it seems.

[@klemson5742]

That faint or w/e at 1:46:42 explains my feels about Sinatra completely :D

[@sara-hc7wb]

I think one perspective that could be pushed harder is ... well I guess "what is the point of making policy?" a lot of people who push the "personal responsibility" memes seem to think that it's a really good way to run things to just ignore why people do things (ascribe it all to some mysterious free will), and no matter what the outcome is, that's still what's best because if you meddle with society you meddle with free will and you're pretty much stalin. but if you can get someone to admit that the initial conditions for someone's life, combined with the people they meet and the events they are experiencing (which are just the product of other initial conditions), will drastically affect the quality of life for that person, then the optimal thing to do would seem to be to make it more likely for people to have good initial conditions and support. and I don't think the important thing to look at is "are we holding people accountable, are we interfering with free will?" just look at the outcome. it's really not different from sowing crops in fertile land rather than on the mountain side, or actually caring for and raising your child, rather than throwing them out into the woods and saying they need to take personal responsibility. when doing politics and policy and deciding how society should work, you can either take an approach based on "well if you don't care about anyone else, you can just do what you want, then people will do what they want which is what will make them the happies", or you can base your approach on "what seems to create more happy people? what seems to reduce criminality? what increases life spans and quality of life?" find out how to make the "soil" for the people as fertile as possible. the first approach almost seems petty and vindictive. it looks at a criminal person who is completely outside the system, and instead of asking "hmm how can we get this person to have a chill life where they can fit into society and do nice things instead of being criminal", they ask "wow this person really has a rotten soul if they choose to do this bs. how can we punish them really hard, for the sake of getting revenge?" one approach seems based on having some romantic idealized notion of free will and then shoehorning it into politics and creating post hoc arguments for why it's every individual's fault, and one approach is solution oriented and asks "well how do we make things be really hecking nice, regardless of what the path there is?"

[@Ace2655]

Ah 57:50 the good ol' idk what to say so I'll repeat what I've already said technique. Classic.

[@hjge1012]

The entire free will discussion/debate is largely irrelevant in the context of ghettos and poor people. The question boils down to if a population should be *held responsible* for their situation. Being held responsible by society is something different from cause-effect responsibility(determinism). Because as a society we have to hold people responsible for things, even if they are not -- our society functions on this principle. Moreover, holding people responsible for things changes their behavior. If someone thinks they are a victim of their circumstances, they will act differently from someone who thinks they are responsible for their own situation -- regardless if they actually are the victim or are responsible. Most people accept that populations will act more appropriately if they think they are responsible for themselves. So from that viewpoint, telling poor people they are responsible for their situation, will help them get out of said situation.The question however remains if said population has the means of getting out their situation without any help, and if they need help, how much help should we give them? Moreover, if we give them help, should we tell them we're helping them because it's not their fault -- which will undermine the idea of responsibility? These "debates" always seem to get stuck because neither party even attempts to understand the other party.

[@assuming9735]

You're arguing past the point of the debate. If people react to the world around them, the argument becomes that we should do everything in our power to put these people in a better situation than they're in now because it benefits everyone.

[@Muteleight]

I know this video is nearly 3 years old but I'm revisiting after ChudLogic covered this dude. You can hear the Ben Shapiro, Jordan Peterson and Sargon brain worms coming out of this dudes mouth. It's like someone fed their videos into an AI algorithm and it spit out Sinatra Says

[@ownagemunky]

This guy is ignoring every advantage he's gotten that led to him being a successful streamer

[@DM-Raven]

Does this guy not understand that background has a heavy sway on the choices an individual makes?! Access to knowledge gives you access to choices that you might not even know you have. People literally have no idea what they can and can't do if they're don't have the necessary knowledge.

[@jeremyp3116]

I heard that class mobility in the us is very low. Destiny always asks “why do rich people stay rich?” he should ask “why are people who are born rich stay rich?”

[@blackflagofdeathgamester9685]

Of all the KZbinrs and streamers that made the choice to try and succeed doing these things yet failed, how does Sinatra Says explain why they did not become successful doing so? They made a choice where success is possible, but weren't successful, so how did this happen? The answer is simple, in any environment where there is a measure for success, only a small percentage will rise to the top. This has been observed in all aspects of society, consider how many people play sports as children vs how many become professional athletes, all the people who work for corporations vs the amount of those people who become CEOs or top tier management, or all those in education vs the amount of those people that graduate in the top of their class. Simply making the choice to succeed doesn't guarantee success will follow.

[@Paul-sr6zb]

This guy says it's a very serious argument that it's transphobic to not want to date trans people. Then cites Kat Blaque as evidence. Maybe there is other content I missed, but this is a Kat Blaque piece that addresses whether trans preference is trans phobic: kzbin.info/www/bejne/eZS7hHWeptlpeac If you can watch this video, actually listen to what Kat is saying, and come away with "Kat argues it's transphobic to not want to date trans people" then you are really bad at listening.

[@timpoolboy98]

Need to stop presupposing that business owners have work ethic.

[@stalin4835]

Destiny, you really should have thrown that shit back in his face... "two things can be true at the same time". Yes, it is ultimately the responsibility of the individual to make the correct choices. However, it is our responsibility to analyze what environmental factors may have caused a role in facilitating THAT choice. The thing that annoys me so so much about their argument is that, at the end of the day... it's ultimately about absolving themselves of having to take any responsibility. Why aren't people rich? Dunno... you should be rich. Why is there crime? Dunno... but people shouldn't do it. It's lazy bullshit.

[@Face6099]

Nice editing btw

[@TC-st9nt]

I dont understand, are you saying people dont have personal responsibility or moral agency? I can draw your logic here into some very dark conclusions. This was a really cool conversation, I wish Sinatra had been able to speak to you at a slightly higher level on this.

[@aeoncalcos3246]

Wow, sinatra says whooped his ass in this debate.

[@WaddyMuters]

„I understand what you mean“ No you don’t buddy, you really don’t.