Detail Diatribe: Being Batman - A Curse Or A Choice?

[@OverlySarcasticProductions]

🌸Spring CLEANIIIIIIIIING! 🌸It's a SALE! Tons of our old pins are back in stock, and all of our merch is discounted! overlysarcastic.shop/ -B

[@dominicadrean2160]

Did you guys hear about the creator of Dragon Ball Akira Toriyama passing away

[@madnecessity]

Clicked as soon as I saw the DCAU Batman thumbnail

[@kingofdragons7]

@@madnecessity DCAU, aka the best time to be a DC fan before it became trash

[@kitchengun1175]

Time to forfeit all my mortal possessions to the pin gods once more

[@shrimpcraft4178]

With the death of akira does dbz start becoming mythos

[@TheDuelManiacs]

Bruce's arc in Batman Beyond was him coming to the realization that "If I can't be Batman, maybe I can be Alfred."

[@kiddo6393]

Batman was just training to become Alfred

[@SymbioteMullet]

Gentleman, spy, and the only man dangerous enough to stare down and backtalk both batman and superman at the same time. Alfred Pennyworth is goals. Also never forget that he took on a Predator with nothing but a feather duster and a shotgun. (It was loaded with 00 if you were wondering). He knows no fear.

[@leithaziz2716]

If you aspire to become Alfred, then you're working towards peak.

[@starmaker75]

Bruce: what if, instead of continuing be being batman, I becoming a father that support his son being a superhero

[@mr_0n10n5]

Its an interesting place for Bruce tbh. He can't stop being Batman but he'll damn sure do everything to protect the city

[@NoGoodNik1]

Kevin Conroy wrote a short comic for an anthology a few years before he passed where he talked about how he spent the decade leading up to his Batman audition losing several close friends to AIDS and being harassed by others in the industry for being gay, even when he tried to stay closeted. The casting director told him "Alright, this Bruce guy, he's been through a horrible tragedy and copes with it by hiding his pain behind a mask of confidence. You think you can do that?" I think, in a bittersweet way, Conroy being Bruce Wayne was as much an inevitability as Bruce Wayne being Batman.

[@dolfuny]

I had always loved Kevin Conroy's batman performances and it wasn't until after his death that I actually learned more about his life and it absolutely touched my heart. He was a great man

[@moderncrusader47]

Kevin Conroy would have loved to watch this diatribe. Keep doing amazing work you guys!

[@twojuiceman]

Kevin Conroy best batman

[@TitaniaBird]

What a special talent and wonderful man we lost in him. So far, he's one of only two people to play Batman in both animation and live-action (he was Kingdom Come Batman in one of the CW crossovers). The other? Adam West.

[@LockesComicWorld-qn1jh]

Rest in Peace, Kevin Conroy😌😔

[@TetsuShima]

Bruce getting a sad lonely life in Beyond was a pretty approppiate tragic fate for the character, but you cannot deny the Bat-family getting destroyed because he got Barbara pregnant was just a big NO

[@nonome8206]

Both in the story and meta sense.

[@tamaiofthesea]

This fucking detail stains that universe so badly. I hate it, I ignore it when watching all the shows

[@somerandolad]

@@nonome8206 And in The Killing Joke, don't forget.

[@tatersalad76]

I can't express how disgusted I am when they make Batman want to sleep with his son's (on and off) girlfriend and Batgirl want to sleep with her (on and off) boyfriend's father

[@twgok3162]

That's non canon to btas in the killing joke Barbara is crippled while in beyond she is an old cop

[@bernadettemontembault665]

That part about Joker losing his shit when Terry starts bantering back reminds me of that joke about how if Batman and Spider-man swapped rogues galleries, none of the villains would last an hour, and the image of Joker seething to be taken seriously by Peter while he quips circles around him still makes me really happy

[@NerveUnderscore]

I love so much this idea 😂

[@kreigguardsman3355]

Batman with symbiote suit what would that look like

[@NerveUnderscore]

@@kreigguardsman3355 That's nightmare material 😅

[@AFreakingAxeCH]

@@kreigguardsman3355 Well Spidey with the symbiote is already 2 steps away from being Bats, so I think Zur-En-Arrh times a thousand

[@OmniGman]

​@@kreigguardsman3355 Literally EVERY Crook/Villain in Gotham - Why do I hear boss music!? Why does it sound like boss music from a horror game!?!?

[@mrreyes5004]

"His parents *_died_* when he was so young. Shot. _Killed right in front of him._ He was raised alone. A kid in a huge mansion. With his memories of his mother and father. He had love, and they took it from him. He should be a killer. *He should want to **_tear the world apart_** for what it did.* And yet he _took_ that pain. That shock of death. And *he turned it into **_hope."_* - Superman, about the curse and choice of Batman.

[@DrTssha]

I recently played through Arkham Asylum, and there's this moment where he's reliving the death of his parents due to Fear Gas, and Gordon's saying "poor kid's all alone" and this other guy, this asshole cop is like "His butler's coming to pick him up! He has a frickin' butler! [and mountains of cash], he'll be fine!" But he's not fine. Nothing is fine. All the money in the world can't bring back his dead parents. But he doesn't become a killer, like Zzazz or Black Mask. He becomes a hero. His butler becomes a surrogate father figure. He even later becomes a father figure himself. He spends the rest of his life living with his trauma but he *lives* with it. It never goes away because trauma doesn't *go* away...but he finds a way to work it into his life. He finds an outlet for it that's not killing people, and that even helps people sometimes. An ideal world wouldn't need Batman, but it's not Batman's job to create that ideal world. That's too big for any one person, and anyone trying to do that himself would just become a Justice Lord. Batman does the best he can with an imperfect world, and brings some hope into the lives of others...and sometimes, even into his own.

[@valentinkambushev4968]

​@@DrTsshathe cop actually has a point. Many kids whose parents died usually end up with relatives (if they are lucky) or in orphanages. Bruce not only had a home and income, but he also had a father figure. Money may not bring your parents back to life, but they can buy you a pretty good subditud.

[@mrreyes5004]

@@valentinkambushev4968 Not really. The 2023 Batman film already addressed this; Alfred may have taught Bruce to fight, may have provided Bruce with support, but NOTHING can replace Bruce's own loving parents. _ESPECIALLY_ when Bruce straight up watched them die in front of him after he was the one who urged them to leave the theater through that alley. So no, Bruce didn't really have a father figure... or, even if he could, it wasn't good enough. And both he and Alfred know that. So no, that cop was _wrong_ in this case. "Alfred, stop. You're _not_ my father." _"I'm well aware"._ "I could see the fear in your eyes, but _I didn't know how to help._ I could teach you how to fight, but _I wasn't equipped_ to take care of you. *You needed **_a father._** And **_all_** you had was **_me. I'm sorry."_* Financial success does not equate to happiness or satisfaction. And money cannot buy a substitute for loving parents. Maybe for some orphan children, they can be adopted and raised by good parental figured. But *not all of them* are, and the parental figures that they have simply can't cut it, through no fault of the guardians and no fault of the kids. Just because orphans like Riddler may have had it worse does not at all mean that Bruce's suffering was lesser (if anything, living in a cushy mansion was also horrible because of how much it was filled with reminders of his dead family each and every day - a 24/7 sham and insult, not a relaxed haven). The brilliant and rightfully acclaimed writers of The Batman (2023) knew that. The talented writers of Arkham Asylum knew that. And the original legendary writers of those earliest Batman comics knew that. You need to get it, too. Peace out.

[@alastorcorvus]

from Tom King's Batman, I knew I recognized that passage. I know The Wedding ended up being a waste of time and character development, but King GETS IT.

[@voidify3]

⁠@@mrreyes5004 their point wasn’t to claim that he is ok. their point was basic intersectionality. YES bruce was traumatised forever by the murder of his parents and his story is super compelling. ALSO the outcome would have been even worse for a kid orphaned in the same circumstances who didn’t come from a rich family. Both of those things are true

[@titaniumteddybear]

It's like a European fable: Bruce is cursed to be Batman until he can find a warrior so noble that he would choose to bear the curse himself.

[@Duiker36]

I think this is my favorite take.

[@FemboyCatGaming]

Ive said this before but batman is old-world gothic and romanticist while superman is new-world modernist

[@MegaManXPoweredUp]

​@@FemboyCatGamingThat's why Superman is sometimes called "The Man Of Tomorrow"

[@FemboyCatGaming]

@@MegaManXPoweredUp and Batman is called The Bat-Man makes him sound like an old gothic monster

[@metadoxy]

Terry McGuinness as Galahad. Nice!

[@LunarPitStop]

"If it ain't broke, then break it (with a space laser)" is such a good Joker line that I'm actually amazed he hasn't said something like it in anything I've seen/read.

[@Szokynyovics]

It is such a Harley line tho... ;)

[@LunarPitStop]

@@Szokynyovics You know what you right

[@rayhatesu]

Arguably almost a line I'd expect out of the Joker from the series "The Batman" over Hamill's Joker, though both could say it. The version of Joker from "The Batman" is generally more violently chaotic. He is also the version where we got the dialogue of Batman (or Batgirl, I can't perfectly remember) saying "Let the kid go Joker" about a kid who is hanging from a catwalk over a pool of something whose fingers Joker has been slowly peeling from the railing one at a time, to which Joker responds "I'm *trying* to!" before kicking the kid's hand and making an escape (if I'm recalling the scene right. I know the quote's mostly correct, but it's been a bit since I saw that scene).

[@LunarPitStop]

@@rayhatesu Good call there. And lmao yeah "I'm *trying* to!" is one of my two favorite moments from that Joker, along with: ”You just had a bad accident. You're a very sick man!" ”Flattery won't save you!”

[@philipschorr5145]

I can actually hear exactly how hamill would deliver a slightly tweaked "if it ain't broke, then break it! Preferably, with the biggest explosive you can find."

[@LeonReal77]

One important detail in the Justice Lords episode is that Lord Batman eventually changes his mind after Batman sarcastically suggests how proud his parents would be.

[@raymondfisheriii791]

That’s a part of the episode that I really like because it does show that both of them are still equals. Lord Batman doesn’t FULLY win against League Batman, they still end up going blow for blow with each other. And if anything Lord Batman ultimately reaffirms for League Batman that he’s doing the job right, even if Lord Batman technically completed the mission, he’s still out there patrolling, and he might be even MORE miserable because of the choices he’s made and the fact that he let his morals muddy a bit more. It’s so good

[@hannahdawg6829]

"Mom and dad would be so proud." That line just hits HARD

[@brianreilly8846]

"NO KID WILL LOSE HIS PARENTS FROM SOME PUNK WITH A GUN!" (probably paraphrased) goes hard though

[@alandeutscher8395]

@@brianreilly8846 And how! I think the take in the video about Batman not having any rebuttal in the cave still holds water. Nothing available in the cave could counter that, so he had to wait it out until he could point out with an example how terrible the Justice Lords' world was.

[@Ironcorgi2]

It’s more like our Batman saying “oh sure our parents would be alive In this [utopia] but they would hate what you have made”

[@nolhok]

Fun history about Batman Beyond: the creative team behind Batman the Animated Series was forced to end production on the show since Warner Brothers wanted to create a "teenage Batman" show to compete with Spiderman's rising popularity. No one on the creative team was happy about this decision, they just wanted to keep doing the awesome stuff that they were doing. But orders were orders, so they came up with the idea of a Batman successor and an old Bruce Wayne, as this would at least let the team connect the new project to their previous work. Well, Warner Brothers loved the idea and gave them 9 months to finish the show, which was a practically impossible timeline. So, the creative team worked with as much haste as possible to finish "Batman Beyond" while they were also finishing up Superman the Animated Series. In some meetings, the crew literally had the artists draw a random character, then pass it to the storywriters, who turned that drawing into a villain ready for their episode. Somehow, against all odds, the team finished the first season of Batman Beyond by their 9-month deadline. They not only managed to create an entirely new concept of Batman hot off of the character's definitive take, but they did it with an unrealistic deadline while having zero interest in the project to begin with. Nothing about this show should have worked. It was doomed to fail. And yet, audiences came to love it, the crew came to love it, and it managed to develop the Batman mythos in an interesting way. Man, what a legacy! :)

[@AlejandroKaplan-hr1vi]

Basically if any other team had worked on this project it would have failed

[@nolhok]

@@AlejandroKaplan-hr1vi Yep, pretty much.

[@improbableopera793]

Fallout: New Vegas: Batman Edition

[@SilverHairedFreak25]

It gets even funnier because this is the latest in a long line of executive meddling choices that make you think the folks at Warner Bros _wanted_ BTAS to fail. First off, you have the first season of the original series. The bigwigs wanted Robin to be put in as an audience surrogate. Because that's what kids love, right? A snotnosed brat tugging on the cape of the guy people actually want to see? So eventually they add in Dick Grayson, but he's an adult. The executives looked at that and said "no, no, a KID robin!" By the time New Batman Adventures rolled around, the writing staff brought in Tim Drake, and he proved to be pretty popular! That's just what good writing will get you. I dunno if this is what led to the whole "Teenage Batman" thing, but it is pretty funny how it ended up like this. I'd imagine the pitch went something like this: WB: "We need a new series. Make a teenage Batman, something the kiddies can relate to!" Bruce Timm: "Seriously? You're killing me here! ...Wait a second. You said teenage _Batman,_ not teenage _Bruce Wayne?"_ WB: "...who the hell is Bruce Wayne?" Timm: "Ohohoho, nevermind. I can work with this..."

[@kyriss12]

Ad to that I’m like 98% certain the popularity of Batman beyond resulted in the 90’s Spider-Man cartoon being turned into Spider-Man unlimited which also had cyberpunk themes. So the copying of Spider-Man came full circle.

[@SingingSpock]

"Would that be fucked up or what, anyway I'm Amanda Waller" sums her up so well, I love it.

[@matthewmuir8884]

Possibly my favourite part of Terry heckling the Joker is the laugh at the end: when The Joker tries to kill Terry McGuinness, he also cries out, "Come on, McGuinness! Laugh it up now, you miserable little punk! Laugh! I can't hear you!" And Terry could've just zapped The Joker with the joy buzzer, but, before he does, he instead gives a defiant, mocking, "Ha, ha". *Batman* had the last laugh against The Joker.

[@CDexie]

That scene is also a subversion of the psychologizing that Joker did to Batman in the flashback. Joker boils down and tears down the entire idea of Batman in a few lines after learning his secrets (crying for mommy and daddy), and then Terry tears down the Joker in a couple of lines. Even down to both monologues calling their subject "pathetic".

[@matthewmuir8884]

@@CDexie Yeah, though, "reversal" would probably be a better word for describing it than "subversion." Terry really does throw at The Joker everything that The Joker threw at Bruce; he even mocks The Joker's origin story: "So you fell in a tank of acid, got your skin bleached, and decided to become a supervillain? What; you couldn't get work as a rodeo clown?"

[@marocat4749]

great scene. getting through him by not listenin to bruce ther but realizing the jokers obsession, is also how you get it, how joker craves batmans attention. the codependence And that laugh is epic.

[@louisduarte8763]

The Joker believed himself a comedian, and every comedian's arch enemy is either a critic or someone upstaging him.

[@MikuJess]

@@louisduarte8763 Terry being the worst of both: a heckler.

[@DarkKnight6six6]

Bruce's initial compromise with Terry kind of boils down to "I'm not cool with YOU being Batman, but maybe I can deal with US being Batman."

[@valhallen338]

An oddly dark note on the Black Mercy scenario-- in his dream, it's not "Thomas Wayne beats Joe Chill and they're safe," it's "Thomas Wayne beats on Joe Chill forever." I fully believe that it's an expression of the agony of his loss, but also that he simply can't comprehend a world where his family lives, where everything is fine

[@matthewmuir8884]

Here's another dark note for it: "Thomas Wayne beats Joe Chill" is exactly what happens in the Flashpoint timeline, but he does it because Bruce died instead of him and Martha, and he became an older, darker version of Batman.

[@FirstLast-wk3kc]

That's so dark, i love the amount of tragedy here

[@TheDaviesCR]

Though, a bit interestingly, the story that this episode is based on draws on some old "Bruce Wayne *can* retire" stories, in mentioning that he had a dream of a world where he was married to Kathy Kane (the original Batwoman who was completely different from the current Kate Kane Batwoman.)

[@ChristianNeihart]

It's the Robot Chicken skit of Batman just wailing on the Joker!

[@lucianfrostbane]

​@matthewmuir8884 dont forget martha becomes joker. The other version is bruce picks up the gun and kills joe chill and becomes a batman perfectly fine using firearms

[@xwiry]

Gonna point something out for all the Batman Beyond fans. Terry's bomb ass jacket: Just a regular, brown, bomber style jacket with silver/white reflective stuff on the sleeves. It helps with visibility when riding around town on a motorcycle. You're welcome.

[@archivist_13]

Gonna have to find it later, thanks

[@Grim_Sister]

That is such a good little detail in character design

[@bassfight2936]

I'm missing the point here.

[@getaround1276]

its a baller jacket, people want to wear it.

[@alanepithet2931]

In Batman Beyond, in a very real way, Bruce DID die as Batman. The moment he could no longer wear the cowl, he shut down. He might have still been moving, breathing, and so on, but he was dead and just waiting for death to catch on. Terry becoming Batman gave life to Bruce because Batman was also alive again, even if no longer as Bruce Wayne.

[@FreelanceCarmine]

"We'RE ThE JokeRS~~~" "Sure you are." There was so much top tier acting in the entirety of those two sentences and I love it every time I remember it.

[@mcstrategist]

Bruce throughout Batman Beyond is such a troll to any new villian. Bruce: What are you supposed to be. (fells like he is Almost cooing) Payback: I'm your worst nightmare. Bruce: You have no IDEA what my nightmares are.

[@David-dz1cb]

God Beyond was SO GOOD. Felt like a spiritual successor and sequel show all at once.

[@Mahrooby]

Fucking old Bruce is such a treat The time travel episode where he needs to go full bad cop like "I know I swore not to kill, but I've had a very long career learning just about every kind of trauma a human body can experience and technically survive"

[@hannahdawg6829]

Best line in that whole "Out of the Past" episode that sums up his feelings of what Ra's has done is "Sure Ra's, why not? Anything to hold off the grim reaper for another few seconds. I take it back: you don't cheat death, you whimper in fear of it." Edit: fixed the quote

[@Boss_Isaac]

Ra's al-Ghoul: “Silence!” (backhands Bruce) Bruce: “And you hit like a girl.” 😂

[@hannahdawg6829]

@Boss_Isaac I know for a fact Bruce did that to really hurt Ra's, it's glorious XD

[@Boss_Isaac]

@@hannahdawg6829 Bruce being a cheeky bastard in his latter years was a delight XD

[@Dumah36]

I think it was in the Justice League show and comic Batman was getting grilled for recruiting children. Wonder Woman said something like "you adopt these children and train them so they become like you." Batman said "I take them in and train them so they don't become me." Like he cannot stop.

[@GarrukApexPredator]

That was in young justice I believe

[@leithaziz2716]

"Robin needed to find the man who had murdered his parents." "Why? So that he could turn out like you?" "So that he wouldn't" This was from the 1st season of Young Justice.

[@trueblueedits4673]

What I love about this exchange is that they are both right and wrong simultaneously. Batman's methodology worked wonders for Dick Grayson but not so much for Jason Todd (you can make the argument that it was being killed by the Joker that turned Jason Todd into what he is, but I'd argue it was always a part of his nature and he needed something else other than being Robin. Funnily enough, I feel like he might've done better with a Wonder Woman type figure as a mentor instead).

[@loadeddice4696]

@@trueblueedits4673 "Fellow Amazons, I am training this boy" "But that is forbidden!" "Sure. Doing it anyway. Jason, more pushups!"

[@trueblueedits4673]

@@loadeddice4696 LOL "Jason👏more👏pushups👏". She would totally do it alongside him XD

[@kawawangkowboy9566]

The best line in Out Of The Past was when Terry says, "I'll tell you right now, I'm not wearing the Robin suit"

[@NobodyC13]

50:20 Fun Fact: the voice and singing of Musical Theater Batman was done by none other than Batman himself, Kevin Conroy, who studied at Julliard and had some musical theater under his belt. The DCAU Crew wanted a chance to showcase this talent of Kevin's (and also satirize a potential Batman Musical that was in the works at the time) long before that famous Justice League Unlimited episode where the twist is BATMAN CAN SING!

[@squibble08]

THATS AWESOME WHAT

[@DDlambchop43]

@@squibble08 the ep where he sang Am I Blue; the man had PIPES.

[@TapperPlushMom]

I've always been fond of how you can tell in Batman Beyond that it's a younger guy inside the bat suit. In one episode - I can't remember which one - a little girl with psychic powers had been kidnapped, and Batman had gone to her house to talk to her parents. And they're telling him about her, and he's just chilling, sitting on the kitchen counter. No mature adult would do that, so *clearly* this is a teenager, early twenties at the oldest.

[@theblinkingbrownie4654]

Im not a mature adult then ty :D

[@ariawen8476]

Yes, and also, Terry is UNFAILINGLY polite during that scene. I love it. Even brings the kid her toy! I just- d'aww!

[@michaelbryant3640]

There was a comic issue from (I think) the tail end of the Silver Age or early Bronze Age of comics, where the Phantom Stranger transports Batman and Robin to a parallel universe where the Waynes haven't been murdered... yet. It culminates in Batman swooping down on Crime Alley to beat up Joe Chill in front of young Bruce and his parents, saving them (and cathartically fulfilling his greatest childhood wish), and ends with Thomas and Martha remarking on how much more focused on his studies their son has been lately, with Bruce in the corner quietly sketching a version of the Batman costume. The implication being that this version of Bruce Wayne is still inspired to become Batman and fight crime, not by tragedy and vengeance, but because someone helped when he needed it, and the desire to help others in turn.

[@archivist_13]

That's awesome

[@williamgeorge3111]

And in that universe, Batman is the alter-ego, and Bruce Wayne is who he considers himself as.

[@HyperShadic100]

It should also be noted that they're in a world of no heroes, so saving Bruce would doom the world. He did it anyway. And Young Bruce decided to be a hero anyway.

[@nkbujvytcygvujno6006]

Anyone know the name?

[@squibble08]

that sounds amazing for bruce. so happy for him

[@TetsuShima]

*Fun fact:* In the short-comic "The Sacrifice", released in commemoration of Batman's 75th anniversary, we see how much Gotham needs a Batman. In said story, the Phantom Stranger gives the dark knight the opportunity to live in a reality in which he did not lose his parents, showing us an alternate future where Bruce never became Batman and formed a happy family with Natalya. Unfortunately, in this new reality, Gotham is dominated by crime, Ra's al Ghul gradually conquers the World, James Gordon is a quadraplegic and Richard Grayson is sentenced to the death row for killing Tony Zucco. Due to that, Bruce tearfully decides in a really heartbreaking scene to return to his original reality, not without saying a final goodbye to his family. As Batman watches again how Joe Chill murders his parents, the story ends with a text that says "In memory of Bill Finger"

[@poweroffriendship2.0]

Finally, someone acknowledged that Bill Finger is the true creator of Batman.

[@legomaniac213]

It sounds like a better written version of "The Gift" three-parter during the lead up to Batman and Catwoman's wedding.

[@seeleunit2000]

​@@p-__...Gee, how unoriginal. If you're so talented then let's see you be half as entertaining as O. S. P. ?

[@Regfife]

​@@seeleunit2000Don't feed the trolls, just flag 'em.

[@matthewtrujillo7228]

@@seeleunit2000 I think he's a bot

[@andyknightwarden9746]

Bruce: "In my old age, I've come to find that I could use a part-time assistant. You know, a gopher; 'go for this,' 'go for that,' _an ally,_ as it were. What do you say, Terrence?" Mary McGinnis: "Oh, he would love that, wouldn't you honey?" Terry: "Sure." Bruce: "I warn you. I can be a difficult taskmaster. I expect nothing but excellent from everyone who works for me." Terry: "I can handle it." Bruce: "Well, then, Mr. McGinnis, _welcome to my world."_ *Epic handshake moment*

[@MrMakulu]

This question of Batman being a curse or a choice is also a reason why in comics Nightwing/Grayson is such a good foil to Bruce. While for Bruce, being Batman is duty/compulsion/curse, for Grayson being a superhero is a choice and it is one he actively makes everyday. Grayson knows he can walk away but he wants this life because he wants to do good and for the most part he enjoys doing it. Even in the very first comic with him as a character, Grayson gets justice for his murdered parents and then has the chance to walk away but choses to stay as Robin. For all the hardships amd trauma that gets dumped on Grayson, he still views his life and what he does as a net positive. And at the end of the day he knows that nothing is stopping him from giving this life up but this is what he wants to do so he does it, even when its hard or when his mentor tries to fire him again

[@paulweyer4339]

When Kevin Conroy passed away, I had a real chat with my father about how "batman as a curse" helped me understand at a young age that I needed to fight through my depression. I couldn't expect it to go away, but I could choose how to face its inevitability and let it inform me in positive ways for the sake of the world around me. RIP to a true legend. Even in passing, he brought me a lot closer to my loved ones.

[@starmaker75]

"Batman being a curse" being similar to depression is actual a cool take I never thought of.

[@v.v365]

In Wayne Family Adventures we get a depiction of Bruce Wayne that’s remarkably stable, loving, and goofy among his found family, and I interpret that as having the whole Bat Family makes him able to share the burden of the Batman mantle, the responsibilities of saving Gotham

[@willowpackerthestoryteller135]

Yeah. It's really great. Especially the sweet episode where the Batfamily comforts him through an uncomfortably realistic PTSD episode. Good stuff.

[@coltonwilliams4153]

Now if only we could get that for the main continuity Bruce. I’d love to ask for it for Peter Parker as well, but… baby steps, I guess.

[@sabertoothkim]

I was also thinking about Wayne Family Adventures a lot while watching this video! Depictions of Batman as being genuinely happy and capable of having a domestic family life have been very rare ever since the end of the Silver Age of comics, but Wayne Family Adventures does it SHOCKINGLY well. I agree that it's because he gets to share the burden of being Batman, and would add on that it's because CRC Payne's versions of the Bat Family REDEEM the mantle of Batman by being positive and optimistic without ever shirking their (super)heroic duty, just like Mcginnis does in Batman Beyond. Also, I think it has to do with the fact that all these people genuinely see Batman as their Dad, which neatly counters most of Bruce Wayne's daddy issues.

[@OverlyPositiveFanboy]

My personal preferences is that Frank Miller-esque grittiness is Batman's starting point, and WFA is his ending point. Probably part of why I love The Batman (2022) so much.

[@MadameTamma]

To me the great character arc of Batman is that he mistakenly believes that in order to be Batman, he has to be alone, but comes to realize that in actuality he is the most effect version of himself when he is in a strong community that sees and accepts him for who he is and is willing to help and support him. I feel that Wayne family adventures is him at the completion of that arc. (It's also one of the gripes I have about Batman Beyond even though I fully admit to it being a great series)

[@Pro_Butcher_Amateur_Human]

I'm a big fan of the comic where Wonder Woman, Superman and Batman all hold onto the Lasso of Truth and say their names. "Princess Diana of Themiscyra." "Clark Kent. Kal-El." "Batman." Because Bruce is the mask Batman wears to deal with problems that Batman can't. The opposite of Clark Kent, who has Superman as his 'customer service persona'. I think it's part of what makes them such a great odd couple, and why I love media that leans into that.

[@pedroscoponi4905]

I like that for Supes _both_ names are true, that feels so right.

[@warmachine5835]

@@pedroscoponi4905 But notably, "Superman" is not. It's a tiny detail that speaks volumes about who Clark is. He's Clark Kent, or Kal-El, but NOT Superman. Wonder Woman has kinda the same thing, but I don't think her 'title' as a hero is as integral to Diana's story, if that makes sense, as the masks are to Clark and Bruce.

[@Rengokuo4o6]

People say it is plot armour and stuff but it makes perfect sense. She asks the specific question of "who are you?" And he replies, "Batman".

[@DrLipkin]

I've always disagreed with this take. Because while the Bruce Wayne persona that he plays during the day is an invention, so too is the Batman. The real Bruce is still the traumatized kid that watched his parents get murdered. After all, dressing up in a costume and beating up crime until it stops is a very childish notion.

[@hyperfreeze2714]

@@DrLipkin I 100% agree. Bruce Wayne is still in that alleyway looking at his dead parents, he never managed to leave

[@madmachanicest9955]

I actually found the fact that it was Amanda Waller of all people who realized they were always going to need a Batman as a fantastic twist. Waller is the Badest bad Guy in all of DC comics. Her growing a hart and doing something for the right reasons was on hell of a twist

[@kylenguyen7371]

That's sort of the weird thing about "The Wall" that makes her 'tick' as a character. She is notorious for being a very *bad* person, bit her motives have always been for a bigger picture and something much bigger than herself. She employs criminals, sends them on dubious missions with extremely high projected casualty and/or failure ratings, sanctions a wide variety of morally or ethically deficient actions, and exploits a wide variety of assets she deems expendable. But she does all of that in the interest of some kind of greater good (usually national defense or a vision of the U.S.A.'s defense that includes contingency plans against the Justice League).

[@kail4997]

I think that’s the beauty of it! Being the person she is, Waller spend most of her time with psychopath, murders, antisocial and worst of them all, politicians. It’s fair to assume she probably didn’t have the highest opinion about humanity back then. And then comes Batman, she always hated the meta human community by the guts. The superhero, their carefree attitude and self righteousness. Yet there’s this one mortal man, stood side by side with the gods, who is truly selfless and a man with principle. Waller probably don’t even believe one of these people existed before she meet Batman. So she fall in love with idea of Batman, a compassion yet mortal hero, whom the humanity should strives to be. So much so she have to create a new Batman just to fill in the shoes, and abandoned it because she realized Batman would never stand for this. It proves that Bruce is ultimately a force of good, he even changed a cynical government black op type like Waller to see the good of humanity.

[@madmachanicest9955]

@@kylenguyen7371 You could as Waller is the embodiment of " the road to hell is paved with good " and " the ends justify the means ". It's amazing how muck mileage DC gets out of old DCAU stuff. Amanda Waller was created for the JLA cartoon.

[@Red-in-Green]

Nah, this is 100% normal Waller behavior (at least for some adaptations). Her whole “the ends justify any means no matter how horrible” deal is very consistent. That’s why she is occasionally not directly an antagonist, just the evilest ally. “Rewrites a kid’s DNA to match a person she finds useful then plans to murder his parents” is very on brand.

[@citizenvulpes4562]

@@Red-in-Green I think the twist wasn't that she wanted to create a new Batman, and realizing that Batman was needed, it was that Amanda Waller was doing her usual thing of "The ends justify the means, we must have a batman" until she started arguing with the person she hired to do the deed, and something occurred to her that you can't create a Batman by copying the circumstances that resulted in his conception. She realized that Batman isn't that simple, and that Batman comes from what makes humanity good, her cultivating a new Batman in the way she did would be antithetical to what Batman fought against in the first place and decided to back away from her original plan which is the twist. She realized you can't intentionally create a batman by becoming the EXACT THING that Batman was fighting against.

[@GuessWho7197]

Fun fact about Batman Beyond: No one who worked on it originally wanted to. A mandate came down from the executives above telling the showrunners they wanted a Batman cartoon set in high school which, considering Bruce Timm, Paul Dini, and the other writers had all been working hard to make all of their shows set within the same universe and have a consistent canon from start to finish, was pretty upsetting when they were told they needed to abandon that for an idea they didn't care about. One day in the writers room though, one of them realized that the mandate had only said that Batman needed to be in high school, they never specified it needed to be Bruce Wayne, so what if they just set it in the future and had a brand new character be Batman? And suddenly everyone was hyped to get started with tons of cool ideas being thrown around for new and interesting angles to take the story in.

[@foldabotZ]

Thank Glen Murakami for being able to convince the crew. His ideas excited even Timm and Dini, so that's how we got Batman Beyond. Glen went on to make the 2003 Teen Titans cartoon.

[@fist-of-doom487]

The line from Mask of the Phantasm “I never expected to be happy” is such a defining line for Batman

[@edcrichton9457]

It hits harder when you know the trauma Kevin experienced during the AIDS crisis and having to hide his sexuality.

[@garrettlaturski6703]

That point about batman not wanting innocence people to be afraid of him reminds me of Justice League: The New Frontier where he changes the eyes on his cowl to look more kind after he scared a child.

[@zhishangdi3522]

he didn't just change the eyes he also made the ears less intimidating, softened the black of the suit as well

[@randomusernameCallin]

In some stories, he keeps lolipops in the utility belt.

[@landonkam6727]

@@randomusernameCallin That's fucking adorable, where can I see this?

[@randomusernameCallin]

@@landonkam6727Nightwing is AMAZING, Here's Why one Zero 's youtube.

[@clipboss8052]

​@@randomusernameCallinNa-na, Na-na, Na-na, Na-na *BATVAN!*

[@corywilson532]

My wife always points out something that folks tend to neglect when discussing the animated Batman. He had both A Therapist, and a Father Figure. And that plays into him having more of a sense of humor and empathy. He repeatedly helps his villains. Doesn't beat up the homeless. And actually embraces his Inner Bruce. So I'd say that version of Batman is a labor of love for his city. And vengeance not against crime, but a system that allows crime to prosper.

[@thelittleredhairedgirlfrom6527]

Your wife is wise and amazing

[@JeffHanke]

So glad you talked about the "Shriek" episode. The two things that stuck strongest in my head from Batman Beyond were "Bruce" knowing he wasn't crazy because he didn't call himself that in his head, and the Mr. Freeze episode. Poor Mr. Freeze.

[@johnnydollar579]

"Terry-I guess you were right about him. Bruce- We both were."

[@squibble08]

i wish freeze came back after that episode. he was the only 1 time threat from season 1...

[@skelebrowhovian6817]

​@@squibble08 nah, that would have ruined the story of the episode, have Freeze's arc have less impact.

[@squibble08]

@@skelebrowhovian6817 yeah it was probably for the better, but still wish we couldve had more of him

[@DDlambchop43]

well, it wasn't entirely his fault; I think he honestly wanted to reform but the cure didn't stick and Blight wanted him vivisected to figure out why.

[@ceres090]

54:35 The added horror to this event is that before this episode, Ra's' family was always his foundation. He might have been a harsh father, but he clearly had love for his kids and would go to great lengths for them. Family was his Achilles' heel and his greatest strength. The fact that he chose to sacrifice family in this way strikes a cord that is bone chilling.

[@ladyarcane4129]

You will have to do the time travel crossover where young Batman gets to meet Terri and old Bruce… Favorite lines; “Shut up Terri!” When both Bruces say it in perfect sync. But also “are you surprised?” “ Frankly yes, I never thought I’d live this long.” Old Bruce to young Bruce.

[@TheTriforceDragon]

"Great, what did they used to call it, stereo?"

[@fukurouyoru5929]

"Batman, Bruce Wayne. Bruce Wayne, Batman. Or have you met?" The snark is strong with that one.

[@NerveUnderscore]

I just watched that episode yesterday, it was so funny and sad because he kinda... Well. Yeah.

[@isaacchong1664]

I love a line that Neil Gaiman wrote for Whatever Happened to the Caped Crusader which Martha Wayne says to Bruce at his death: 'You don't get heaven or hell. Do you know the only reward you get for being Batman? You get to be Batman.'

[@yukiminsan]

The KNIGHT part of Dark Knight already tells us everything we need to know. Batman is a hero in the CHIVALRIC tradition. His heroism is expressed through SACRIFICE. The knight's armor protects him, but it also weighs him down. In exchange for strength, he must bear a spiritual burden. Unlike in the languages of other cultures who had knights, the English word knight and its German origin knecht have no relation to horse-riding (Chevalier, Caballero, Cavaliere, Ritter, Ridder). Instead, it means SERVANT. In Mask of the Phantasm, if Bruce had chosen to follow Andrea, he would probably end up condoning her murderous revenge if not becoming a direct accomplice to it. But that's not what happens. At great personal cost, Bruce OPPOSES the love of his life. He can do this only because he is Batman. Because he serves JUSTICE, not himself.

[@michaelramon2411]

Terry is able to become and stay Batman because he wouldn't take no for an answer, and that makes sense - Batman must be someone who will never, ever give up in the face of adversity.

[@magnusprime962]

Which is interesting because a lot of Beyond explores the ways Bruce did give up. Not when it came to protecting the world, but when it came to maintaining his personal life and relationships. Bruce stopped trying for a long time and alienated everyone who ever loved him. It was only when Terry wouldn’t take no for an answer that he started to see how he had failed and began trying to improve himself.

[@wonderlustcoffee5517]

​@@magnusprime962I think of I can butt in that Bruces arc is that hea Batman because he can't retire because he NEEDS to be Batman to cope. So he sees batman as a more "vital" than his personal life, batman was his response to his trauma and making sure no one went through what he did, he's a character that says that batman does anything for the mission (YJ or Justice League can't remember lol) his "flaw" is that he prioritizes the overall good bs individualized. Which his personal life suffering makes sense for who we see Bruce as sadly.

[@jameskingman1227]

I love how you guys just get Superman, Batman and Spider-Man. You’re not ashamed of the characters, not trying to get people to reinterpret them, you just see them for what they are and gush! It’s like you’re the anti Zack Snyder….or my spirit animal lol

[@AdeptusOrkstodes]

The best thing about old bruce is he doesn't just let himself waste away. Old Bruce can still FIGHT, even if he's not as affective as in his prime.

[@Ragnaroknrol]

The episode where JLA Batman meets old Bruce and he complains “I can’t believe I was ever this green at interrogation.” is just such a moment.

[@rmsgrey]

@@Ragnaroknrol Wait, Batman's playing Good Cop?

[@annnova9009]

@@rmsgreyEverything’s relative.

[@Ragnaroknrol]

@@rmsgrey if by good cop you mean: dangling scarecrow wannabe over the edge of a skyscraper and saying his arm is getting tired, yes.

[@Jgt612]

Bruce begging his parents to release him from his obligation as Batman in Mask of The Phantasm is absolutely gut wrenching

[@poweroffriendship2.0]

Batman's struggles is similar to how Spider-Man went through. Both superheroes who literally can't catch a break in their own respective universes, treated like punching bags by the writers.

[@nataleynakata3687]

Hey WAIT- There’s a whole-ass What If? Spiderverse-Batverse crossover idea right there

[@leithaziz2716]

@@nataleynakata3687 Sad news, a Batman Beyond animated movie in the style of Spider-Verse was rumored to be in the works, with concept art leaked, only to get shutdown by WB.

[@airplanes_aren.t_real]

​@@nataleynakata3687 I'd be really funny if they made a gag where Spiderman asks batman if there is also a batmanverse and it cuts to all other versions of batman having the exact same discussion with their respective spider men answering: don't say such silly things

[@SymbioteMullet]

​@@airplanes_aren.t_realbut would spider ham's batman be a pig dressed as a bat, or a bat that was turned into a pig dressed as a bat?

[@airplanes_aren.t_real]

@@SymbioteMullet actually in spider_ham's world the animals aren't exclusively pigs, my guess is that the animal would be representative of a more cartoony aspect of batman's character

[@CallMeCrazyCallMePoor]

Batman Beyond was a product of necessity that shows just how lucky we are that the canon of the DCAU lasted as long as it did. They had to write a Batman series that appealed to a younger audience in the way Spiderman did, and they didn't have a choice except to put Bruce at his darkest point in old age so that the story arc of Beyond could exist. Then the show didn't get renewed and they managed to cope again and put a finale into Justice League. They managed to tell a serialized story in children's oriented television over fourteen years. That will never happen again.

[@kuno3336]

As a kid, I kind of always offhandedly said that Terry was "Batman and Spider-Man put together" and I never did a deep dive into why I thought that, so to hear you basically confirm that line of thinking is just great

[@MrBrawler16]

I still get chills in the Beyond pilot when Bruce says "Very good then, Mr. McGuiness. Welcome to my World."

[@Syurtpiutha]

Also during the scene where Terry admonishes himself for not being there when his dad died. Different kind of chills, but chills nonetheless. That was an excellent voice performance.

[@GameAceTaylor]

Beyond giving Bruce the line "I don't call myself Bruce, in my head" during the episode with the telepath villain is absolutely the most triumphant example of the thesis that Bruce Wayne is the mask.

[@Nike-gs8ig]

One thing happening in current comics is that Bruce kind of rethinks that part because his son Damian also has no civil life to speak of and Damian is fine with it, but as his father Bruce isn't. So he sends Damian to a normal school and tries to do more normal stuff with him (he probably also still feels bad that he straight up abandoned Damian after Alfred's death).

[@coltonwilliams4153]

@@Nike-gs8ig Is this before Arr-En-Zrrh took over and is now going on a rampage, doing shit Bruce would never do, like rigging Jay with fear gas? Wait… Is this part of *why* Arr-En-Zrrh went postal and started that damn Batfamily civil war?!

[@pacecory1]

recently i discovered batman brave and the bold and realized that was my favorite batman. a perfect realization of a mature and wise batman who has conquered his demons and now serves a much more fatherly role to people trying to help raise the next generation with love, guidance, and a just fist. 'and lots of comedy'

[@s.p.d.magentaranger1822]

"The hammer of justice is unisex."

[@keirhardy6470]

"But surely, Batman never cries"

[@marocat4749]

I like terry more, but close second.

[@ChristianNeihart]

1:05:11 When Terry is roasting Joker, I like to imagine that Bruce is listening in on it and is having his 2nd existential crisis. Terry did the one thing Bruce didn't think to do: defeat the Joker at his own game. World's Greatest detective didn't think to take comedy lessons.

[@matthewmuir8884]

Interesting interpretation. I like to think that Bruce, in that moment, is completely proud of Terry for coming up with something he never would've considered; so proud in fact that he doesn't notice or care when Terry kind-of insults him by saying, "Get a clue, Clowny! He's got no sense of humour! He wouldn't know a good joke if it bit him in the cape!"

[@melvinfranco2142]

​@@matthewmuir8884Bruce: True that, unfortunately.

[@ChristianNeihart]

​@@matthewmuir8884 less pride and more self admonishment. "Wait, that's it? That's all it took? You mean to tell me that I could have saved so much time and hardship if I thought to take comedy lessons before becoming Batman?"

[@telkei3365]

Bruce is funny, he's just never intentionally funny

[@verybigbrain1]

I think the fundamental difference between Terry and Bruce is that for Bruce the Batman was something that was broken. And Bruce's mission was to prevent anyone else from being broken in the same way. He is fueled by his pain. For Terry the Batman is something that made him whole. Terry is driven but aimless, which manifests in his early hooliganism. But becoming Batman gives him something better to use that energy for. Terry's mission is to help people. He is fueled by hope.

[@lifeisanenigma213]

wow beautifully said

[@vanDaalstad]

I will die on the hill that Terry McGinnis has the best "I am Batman" line, with maybe the exception of the 9-11 soupkitchen story.

[@livingtaco7876]

God I love that story so much Kevin Conroy was a treasure to this world

[@krvys7226]

I didn't know about the soup kitchen story until this moment, but having seen the interview,dayam.

[@ninjag-o-g3150]

Went on a journey and found the clip because of this, thank you for telling me this existed

[@illdecidelater723]

I just wanna note that superman had a whole life playing out for him in his black mercy dream, and I'm not sure how time works in the dream but the Implication that batman ENTIRE fantasy is just an endless loop of his dad beating up Joe chill is hysterical to me

[@whitherwhence]

8 year old Bruce spending 47 years in the Dad Beats That Guy Up purgatory

[@VTMMan]

Its also sad. He can't see a world beyond that moment. He can't even imagine a life where his parents are alive.

[@rynobehnke8289]

Given everything else we saw about Superman's dream would I assume we never left the alley because the black mercy just wasn't long enough on him to reach the point were he wants more.

[@jennyinutil2018]

"Bruce's dog is named Ace" *GOD* My heart

[@warmachine5835]

Epilogue always leaves me in tears.

[@Morgil27]

I honestly _never_ connected the dog with Epilogue. I always just assumed it was the BatHound from the silver age comics.

[@gennybaratta2460]

@@Morgil27same 😢

[@MsStBoom]

@@Morgil27 It's probably a case of the writers taking the name the dog already had, and saying "let's retroactively make this really sad."

[@Crazy5711]

​@@MsStBoomNot me reading this and my brain immediately conjuring an image of Nina/Alexander saying "Edward"

[@calebkopp7636]

My favorite thing I've ever heard anyone say to describe BTAS Batman vs Beyond Batman was this: Bruce became the Batman Gotham needed, so that Terry could be the the Batman Gotham deserved.

[@nordicfatcheese]

One of my favorite Batman movies is Batman: Hush because it's another really interesting exploration of the effect Batman's curse has on his life. It's another doomed romance story, but this time instead of dating a normal person he's dating Catwoman. So instead of interfering with Batman's ability to do crime-fighting, she actually joins him in the crime fighting. She's maybe the only person who can keep up with Batman's life and even enjoy it. It's a really sweet redemption story for Selina, and they work really well together, both romantically and as crime-fighting partners. They have a few disagreements throughout, but the breaking point is during the climax. When the main villain, who has been very personally tormenting them both and even kidnapped Catwoman, is about to fall to his death, Batman tries to save him, because of course he does. The building is about to explode so saving the villain would kill Batman, so Catwoman has to cut the line and kill him herself to get Batman to leave. When she asks why the hell he would do that, after everything the villain had done to all of them, he says: "I had to try. If someone can be saved, I have to try." And Catwoman realizes that he really does have to. It's a compulsion, like the stealing was for her. Catwoman overcame her compulsions and changed, she became better, but Batman can't. She leaves because she realizes that she'll never be more important to him than The Mission. Nothing, not even his own life, can come before The Mission. And that singular, self-destructive pursuit of it drives away everyone close to him.

[@EpicNerdsWithCameras]

This was touched on a bit at the end, but the idea that Terry sees his role as Batman from the "great power, great responsibility" perspective makes a lot of sense given the background behind the character's creation. He was very much created as the DCAU's response to Spider-Man: A younger, quippy superhero, but who isn't over the top about it and also has a strong sense of justice. And frankly, it's a tragedy that the character got shelved so early on, because DC could have *really* use more characters like that in recent years.

[@livingtaco7876]

Especially since a majority of the fan base loves batman beyond

[@andrewbeehler579]

WB rejected a Batman Beyond movie made by the same people behind the Spiderverse movies

[@johnnydollar579]

Buffy The Vampire Slayer actually though yes there's a lot of Spider-Man in Terry.

[@Blueeyesthewarrior]

@@andrewbeehler579 WB seems intent on depriving me of an excellent movie I see.

[@eaglest0554]

Honestly, my favorite part of scarecrow as a villain is that like, other villains can attack Batman in body or in mind, but scarecrow is the only one that's repeatedly attacked him on the very concept of the Batman. Whether it be the episode where he made him have visions of his dad being disappointed in him, or the comic you mentioned where he puts that doubt in him of "am I going too far to the point that even innocent people fear me?" or the comic I learned about from a video on him specifically where he straight up tries uses a makeshift therapy session to try and manipulate him into giving up on being Batman, he's the one villain that consistently goes after the very core of Batman, and that's very cool.

[@SirsasthNigam.]

Salute to Conroy and Hamil for being so good at voicing Batman and Joker they became Iconic

[@geonunes10]

One interesting detail about the scene of Bruce paralyzing the suit with Terry in it is that Ace starts staring at him as if he was saying: "Really? You're going to let the kid die?" and then Bruce allows Terry escape

[@ceruleanwalker1069]

Thank you for making me realise that Terry actually kicked the Joker in the nuts. This revelation has elevated my favourite Batman ever higher.

[@relicking9207]

To be fair to that one guy from Batman Beyond, if you are fighting a guy who is know to never use a gun and he picks up a gun, it'd be rather terrifying, I'd think

[@matthewmuir8884]

Indeed. After the heart attack but before Bruce grabs the gun, the guy talks about how his dad always talked about Batman as someone that terrified him during his criminal days. Even though the knowledge is second-hand, he knows enough about Batman to know what it means when Batman grabs a gun.

[@jcprofit]

One of my favorite things about Beyond that I didn't really realize until this diatribe is that when Batman comes back, so does Bruce. When Bruce hung up the Cowl in the intro sequence, he secluded himself and was completely isolated for decades. But once Terry steals the suit and takes up the mantle, Bruce comes back. Not just as a mask for Batman, but as an actual person. It feels like this is who Bruce Wayne was supposed to be, not just Batman. He is a powerful businessman with incredible compassion and an iron fist. He wants to help, but instead of fighting crime in the streets he uses his wealth to better the community. It makes Batman and Bruce Wayne two sides of the same coin. They cannot live without the other, if one goes down, so does the other. Not just because they're the same person, but because they cannot live without each other. It is a fascinating side to Batman I wish more writers explored.

[@squibble08]

and he doesnt just come back, he COMES BACK. im reminded of s1e3 (inques first episode) where he goes to powers' office to scold him, and to powers it comes out of fucking nowhere because bruce has not been in wayne powers in YEARS.

[@TetsuShima]

Imo, the Batman with the saddest life was the one from the Golden Age. He began to suffer an emotional crisis in the 50s, fearing that he would be left alone once Gordon retired and Richard became independent, but then Selina proposed to him and they both had Helena, giving him a happiness she had not felt since the death of his parents. Sadly, Selina ends up murdered, which leaves Bruce with a horrible depression that would last until the end of his days.

[@theextracrispycolonel9502]

With how often comics retread the same routes, I'm surprised they never redid this.

[@Zooasaurus]

@@theextracrispycolonel9502 Man i hate Tom King

[@kap1618]

Bruce pleading to his parent's grave is the most tragic moment in all of Batman's canon. You're literally watching a man feeling guilty about healing from his trauma, moving on with his life, and being happy.

[@scarletsabre8383]

In a Superman TAS tie in comic, Terry travels back in time to help stop a Brainiac plot affecting his timeline, and he asks Clark why he does what he does with his powers. Clark replies that he's been blessed with amazing abilities and it's his calling to help people with them. He then asks Terry why he does what he does, and Terry responds with "I was blessed with a Batsuit. It's no less a calling." and that to me, perfectly encapsulates Terry as Batman, he sees it as a calling and a way to help the people around him, but more as a gift and a path to redemption than a curse that consumes his life

[@normal6483]

Something I think is really interesting is that Warner Brothers forced the DCAU to skip to Tim Drake instead of writing Jason Todd first, but they really wanted to write Jason Todd so they basically just wrote an AU Jason Todd, complete with tragic Joker ending and eventual villain turn, and then named him Tim Drake. Then they forced them to write a sequel series about "Batman in high school" and they basically just wrote an AU Tim Drake, complete with forcing himself into the role of Bruce's assistant while still having his own family and social life, (including sleeping through his dates,) and then named him Terry McGinnis. By keeping the core components of each character's writing, they were able to get to the heart of the characters even though they were named for entirely different characters due to executive meddling.

[@bluesnake4626]

Ya Terry really is more like Tim Drake than their version of Tim Drake. Main difference being that Tim more the most part has no desire to be Batman

[@normal6483]

@@bluesnake4626 Exactly. Tim doesn't want to be Batman, and at first he didn't even want to be Robin. But he's very insistent that *somebody* has to be doing these jobs, and he'll beat Bruce into the ground before he lets that man be Batman incorrectly.

[@bluesnake4626]

@@normal6483One of my favorite moments was when Tim and Cassandra are talking and Tim is saying that he dose not want to be the Bat, that ultimately he wants to be able to live a life separate from what it would take to be the bat. But Cass responds by saying that being The Bat is what she wants most, making her the first Batman apprentice that actually wanted to take over the cowel until Damian rolled up attempting to claim that Batman was his birthright.

[@foldabotZ]

...Oh my god, you're right. Terry _is_ comic Tim Drake!

[@toganium4175]

The movie Mask of the Phantasm explores this concept so well.

[@mr-laroque9604]

The BEST Batman movie. That score alone stayed with me ever since I saw it as a kid.

[@somerandolad]

That scene of him in the rain, begging at his parents' graves to forgive him for not fulfilling his duties stayed with me.

[@fist-of-doom487]

“I never expected to be happy” is such a character defining line

[@Tusitala1967]

Amen.

[@jlofty281]

One of my fav “Batman can’t ever willingly retire” stories was the recent Catwoman Lonely City! SPOILERS but basically the comic revolves around Selina trying to decipher the mystery around Bruce’s final words to her before he was killed by the joker, but in the end she finds out he basically just instructed her to revive him with a refitted Lazarus pit so he could keep being Batman after his own death. It’s devastating to see his self destructive behavior through the perspective of a character who loved him and thought she could find personal fulfillment through him before discovering that that can’t ever happen.

[@Newbiespud]

I don't have much to add other than, as someone who lived with a real-life martyr complex for many years (not doing vigilante work, obviously, but laboring under the delusion of "my suffering helps everyone around me"), the question of "A curse or a choice" is unfortunately answered with "Yes." Until you have the world-shattering realization that you didn't have to hurt yourself all this time, it really feels like the best and only decision every time.

[@lynallott3404]

If I can ask, how did you get out of it? I'm currently in a kinda similar state, am an activist and a revolutionary and someone who is rapidly ascending in capability and importance, and it's all just so much. I enjoy living my life, I love it, but it's also exhausting at the same time, but I don't feel I have a choice in it. Other people can't or won't fill my shoes, and I do too much important work to leave those shoes unfilled.

[@Newbiespud]

It's hard to say I'm fully out of it, and I can't speak to the genuine importance of your situation, but... I wish I had a happier story to tell. It took a mental and emotional breakdown and a full-on mental disability to force me to start relying on others. It took an understanding loved one telling me that I didn't have to take certain responsibilities I'd assumed on myself anymore. It took extended family members taking advantage of my yes-man nature and fundamentally betraying me and putting me in a horrible situation. It took a year and a half of therapy to start untangling where the self-flagellating feelings were coming from and how I was driven by them, how it was never enough. It took trying and succeeding at a new project at my own pace for me to realize that maybe I'm not a lazy piece of shit after all, that maybe I can succeed at different standards of happiness and success than the ones I was ingrained with. And even after all that, I'm still only at the beginning of a long road to recovery. If it feels like you have to keep running and treading water or else you'll sink, or that if you stop to think about what you're doing it might break you... that's because you're probably right. But the body can only swallow so much pain and stress; there's a maximum limit, I found mine. And eventually, the thing that will break you, the thing you can't even bear to imagine, needs to be confronted so that you can begin to psychologically grow again.

[@MegamiImperatrix]

Something I love about Batman Beyond Neo Year is that in Bruce's final moments, he tells Terry about the gun before telling him that he's Batman now.

[@Zander2212]

I think the thing with Old man Bruce Wayne, is that it makes sense for his character. Most of the "Hero becomes an old, sad curmudgeon" are done with happier characters, often specifically to be a shock to the audience. It's doesn't really make sense for Luke Skywalker or Spiderman to become that type of character, but it is very understandable for Bruce.

[@Nike-gs8ig]

Especially in the comics Bruce has a real talent to ruin his relationships (including with his children) because of his issues and his work so him eventually ending up alone and bitter makes a lot of sense. With some of the awful things he has done to his family the never ending nature of comics is pretty much the only reason they always forgive him and come back tl him.

[@KanadasKid]

i cannot stress enough how amazingly this question is explored in the new 52 batman run with scott snyder and greg capullo. the run culminates with a final battle between joker and batman die and both are resurrected by raw lazarus juice (metal as hell), but without their memories. because of this, the associated trauma is also gone, and bruce instead gets together with julie madison, works in a downtown orphanage with her under a different name, and is very happy. when he does eventually meet up with alfred, and alfred recounts his backstory, alfred is about to tell bruce about batman and bruce stops him. he knows what he's about to say, but there's a new batman in town (long story), and bruce recognizes that having lost his memories, he no longer has the trauma to fuel batman's indomitable will. he couldn't be batman if he wanted to, and either way, he doesn't want to. alfred and superman discuss this, and alfred says that as much as he knows the old bruce would want him to push him to bring back batman, deep down, this is what alfred always wanted. bruce is happy and at peace, something alfred never thought possible, ESPECIALLY because months before bruce died being batman, and that hurt alfred deeply. eventually, though, a supervillain gets out of hand, the apocalypse starts playing out in gotham, and bruce returns to alfred, who is desperately trying to ignore bruce. bruce makes alfred take him to a machine batman built that will implant the memories into somebody, turning somebody into batman. it doesn't work for a while, until both of them realize what has to happen: BRUCE WAYNE HAS TO DIE FOR BATMAN TO LIVE. literally and figuratively. it's a really powerful concept. because alfred can't pull the trigger, julie madison ends up doing it, saying one last heartfelt goodbye to bruce before flipping the switch, killing him, and bringing batman back in peak physical form, just in time to save the day.

[@bibbyboxx2219]

It’s a good story, though the whole memory machine thing was a bit over the top.

[@mega20able]

This summary reminds me soooo much of Human Nature from Doctor Who, and I mean that in a really good way. I'm a big fan of stories that make established characters forget the path that led them to who they are, become happy as a result, but ultimately choose to go back because they're good people at heart, and can't bring themselves to put their own happiness above the well being of others.

[@KanadasKid]

@@bibbyboxx2219 oh, absolutely, but with new 52 you kinda have to treat it like the ultimate universe-- this is temporary, and new, and the old stuff is back now, so just enjoy the ride. do i enjoy the epilogue of batman making a machine to overwrite the consciousness of generations of people, ensuring his immortality, rather than having his legacy stand on its own two feet? no. is it an interesting idea that is fun to see play out? absolutely. better than what they did to my boy mr. freeze, like i see what they were going for but hands off my character defining backstory

[@diogenesrex7847]

Snyder and Capullo did a great job writing Batman in my opinion. The ReBirth stuff by King, Jones and Janín is also great, some of the best Batman/Superman writing ever, corny but I love it. Red has her Batman Litmus Test, I propose that how Supes talks to Damian Wayne outside the entrance to Talia's base in Khadym should be the Superman Litmus Test. He does his duty while humanizing Damian instead of retaliating. It's such a great moment that shows why Superman is a good hero and a good person, smack in the middle of a storyline where two women swordfight over who loves Bruce more. It's just so much Saturday morning cartoon BS with amazing character moments. I just can't help but love it.

[@drewhomeyer2889]

Also fun to note that in Batman Forever near the end Batman says “I’m both Bruce Wayne and Batman, not because I have to be, but because I choose to be.”

[@magnusprime962]

I have always loved that line, and I wish more Batman writers would incorporate it. It’s a great way to have a Batman who is influenced by his past but not bound by it. A Batman who can say that is truly the hero the character was meant to be.

[@LoryLilyBomber]

“I promised never to kill, but I never said anything about drop-kicking penguins.” Sounds like a quote for a T-shirt that you could only ever wear to bed. But still a shirt I wanna wear. LMFAOOOOO

[@OmniGman]

... B-but... penguins don't live in the Arctic!

[@Doublemonk0506]

​@OmniGman , "I will fly one over just to drop kick it"

[@damientonkin]

Growing up with these cartoons my conception of batman was as someone who gets knocked down and always gets up, and that's important to me as a disabled person. Kingdom Come was written as kind of a refutation of The Dark Night Returns and you see old Bruce Wayne, his secret identity has been exposed, his house has been destroyed, his body has been crippled and he's still being batman. So it's interesting that you see the Kingdom Come suit in Batman Beyond, definitely some influence there. I have a younger friend that I'm showing these to for the first time, we studied animation together so it's a really interesting experience to look back on them on that level but they're also just good shows.

[@theoleadfoot2864]

You just made me like batman even more, thank you

[@Heisen2420]

I'm shock you didn't cover the other legendary comeback from Batman to Lord Batman from JL's episode "A Better World". Where after some guy gets arrested for a minor crime, Batman sarcastic asks Lord Batman "They Love it here, would you think?" in which Lord Batman asks "Who?" in which Batman responds the most savage burn in fictional history, "Mom & Dad; They be so Proud of You."

[@krvys7226]

Justice Lord Batman used their parents Death to show our Batman why they made the type of world they created. Our Batman used their life to show Justice Lord Batman it wasn't worth the cost.

[@Dr.Starbound]

@krvys7226 holy SHIT that line goes hard. Amazing job

[@jeremy1860]

I don't think I'm being controversial when I say that, when it comes to characters who take on the mantle of established superheroes, Terry is an absolute gold standard 😊

[@s.p.d.magentaranger1822]

Yeah, Miles in Spiderverse I would say is a close second.

[@SymbioteMullet]

Better than being the Booster Gold standard!

[@matthewmuir8884]

Alejandro in The Mask of Zorro is also a good example, though he's more a swashbuckler than a superhero.

[@Ironcorgi2]

I like that terry is his own person and isn’t as smart as Bruce but has qualities that Bruce doesn’t have that make him better in different ways. He was able to break the joker not physically but mentally

[@xerfrex7869]

Terry, Miles and Wally are the perfect examples. Wally is the best imo Most people don't even think of Wally as not the Flash, or a replacement for Barry. When you mention the Flash, people ask 'which one?'. That's a perfect replacement . No lesser than the OG, hell he's better in some aspects, but doesn't feel like some writer's OC insert

[@noahjohnson935]

Snyder lost my respect when he specifically said he hated the "no unaliving" rule that was his ONE LIMITATION

[@mortadelofilemon2086]

I think the worst part of that is that he does nothing interesting with it. Because the idea of a Batman who started killing has a lot of room to play: why did he start? What is his though process? What does Alfred think about the change and how does that affect his perception of Batman and Bruce? What about Gordon? The people of Gotham? His fellow heroes? What about Robin, if he is still alive? And the Joker? Why even is the clown still alive? Hundreds of stories could emerge from that. But no. For Snyder Batman kills because it's cool and that's as far as it goes.

[@nidhogg8446]

​@@mortadelofilemon2086 We could've had fucking Thomas Wayne Batman and instead we got "Look at the pretty explosions, people probably died"

[@pinkleafsheep]

the fact they admitted the change was because "i saw a compilation of moves that probably kill in batman arkham and thought it meant i could do it too:)"

[@henrypaleveda7760]

I didn't much like his adaptation of superman. but plenty of people have ragged on that already.

[@Janoha17]

I get the sense that Snyder did not watch/read or get the message of Superman vs the Elite.

[@nathannguyen934]

I always enjoyed the Phantasm cameo in Epilogue as fanservice, but after this detail diatribe I cant get over how perfect that detail is: Andrea Beaumont represented the path not taken for Bruce; by breaking off her engagement with Bruce she Forced him to choose the path of The Bat unfettered by the desire to seek his own happiness and freedom Andrea sparing Terry's parents freed him from the burden of tragedy that defined Bruce's Batman; giving the Terry the opportunity to emotionally mature into his own person, allowing him to choose to be Batman on his own Terms Andrea Beaumont created both Batmen

[@Atlas3060]

Batman is a curse, because even Batman said so in a episode of Young Justice. When they talked about Shazam/Captain Marvel being part of the League even though he's 10, Batman stuck up for him. Wonder Woman then turned on Batman when he admitted he knew about Billy's age before the League. She commenting on "I'm not surprised since you indoctrinated Robin at a young age". I loved Batman's comment about how Robin needed that closure, that ability to get justice for the man who killed his parents. Wonder Woman snapped back, "So he could be just like you?!" Batman's reply was priceless, "So that he wouldn't." Right there he already admits that he's never going to give up the mantle and that it is a curse because unlike his ward, Robin, he'll never get that closure. Thank you for coming to my TED talk.

[@soldier257]

Batman Beyond was right up there with Teen Titans for best shows of my childhood. They made badman edgy without being inauthentic or childish

[@foulplayer7812]

There's a quote from V From Vendetta I think sums up the relationship between Batman and Bruce Wayne in its purest form: "There is a face behind this mask, but it's not me. I'm no more that face than I am the muscles beneath it or the bones beneath them." Bruce Wayne as an identity is just a mask; a means for Batman to continue his crusade against crime. The person who was Bruce Wayne died in Crime Alley with his parents and was reborn as Batman. You're looking at the real person every time he dawns the cowl. And every time he takes the cowl off to do his day job as Bruce Wayne, he's wearing a mask and pretending to be someone else. It's like in Watchmen how the man who was Walter Kovacs died the night he found out a kidnapper fed a little girl to dogs and was reborn as Rorschach when he got revenge for her. Very few people aside from the Joker understand that fact. That's why you never see Joker trying to expose Batman's identity because, to him, it doesn't matter whose face is beneath the cowl. It's just another mask.

[@im_bored_hi_]

Sees notification Notices it’s a new Detail Diatribe Instantly clicks Sees it’s an hour and a half long Regrets nothing

[@3Midlo]

"Nothing would make me happier."

[@evankimori]

They never give you fast food. It's always a minimum three course complete with an after dinner mint and dessert.

[@bradleysiddeguzman3466]

*sees its about batman* Faints

[@splitjawjanitor5369]

Little bit I noticed about the Terry vs Joker scene rewatching it recently: about halfway through his almighty roast of the Joker, Terry drops the Batman growl and speaks in his normal tone of voice. He effectively flips the "You're not Batman" script on its head: Joker is so pathetic he's not even _worth_ the effort of being Batman.

[@JoshSweetvale]

Batman Beyond's death of the Joker is _the_ best version of an exit for that character. Terry 'Spiderbat' McGinnis is the _real_ Batman who Laughs.

[@uria3679]

Who hopes Red talks about the “Hero letting the Villain Live” trope so she can talk about SU and Avatar The Last Airbender, the “Hero vanquishing the Villain” trope so she can talk about She-Ra Princesses of Power, or the “This Corporation is Greedy and Corrupt but at least they aren’t Violent” trope so she can talk about how media vilifies rebellions

[@JediJMoney]

“Hero vanquishing the villain” is a little too broad for a trope talk

[@guyonthenet2000]

​@@JediJMoneyI'm sure she could do it. Covering what emotions could happen through that, why exactly you need the villain vanquished, and all the tropes within that.

[@gota7738]

Red covers Aang's ordeal with dealing with Ozai really well in the 'Last of Their Kind' Trope Talk. Discussing different villainous ending tropes could be interesting though, there's a long behind the scenes media history to what tropes are popular and not. Like under the Hays Code, there were gangster films distributed with stuck on endings where all the criminals died since the Code didn't approve of criminal actions (or undesirable behaviour) going unpunished. Reportedly the local screenings could then choose to cut the extra scene if they wanted to so the gangsters could get away alive. You can see how this also birthed Bury Your Gays at a time where homosexuality was viewed as deviant. To this day, we don't have a lot of American TV or films where the villains neither repent nor are punished, that aren't meant to be bad endings, the way you see in Japanese media.

[@Gospel-xm7vd]

That last point about rebellions is really important. After I realised it I could never look at shows the same way again.

[@GuyFawkes051]

Bout to go down the TVTropes rabbit hole

[@LaZodiac]

Something I really like is that, in the end... Terry being the good future Bruce always wanted, was something he was given by Andrea, the woman who could have BEEN that good future. All his hard work, all the stuff he sacrificed and struggled for, it paid down the line perfectly.

[@squibble08]

i never thought of it like that! thats incredible symbolism

[@StarlitPetrichor]

23:13 an interesting parallel to this happens in the first season of Young Justice, Wonder Woman asks Batman if he keeps Robin around to make him become like Batman. and his response is "no. it's so that he doesn't become like me."

[@leithaziz2716]

"Robin needed to find the man who had murdered his parents." "Why? So that he could turn out like you?" "So that he wouldn't"

[@Xalerdane]

_Loved_ that scene.

[@joshuaizly5502]

I didnt understand that scene when I was a kid, how putting him in a costume and making him fight crime isn't him turning into a small batman. I only got the message about his inner darkness and psychology when I was a teen.

[@AlexThePyroshark]

I believe that the thing about the "Out of the Past" episode, where Bruce said he would be weaker than ever, is that he would be able to cheat death and old age. Like he pointed out, Ra's Al Ghul was fleeing from the reaper like a bunny being chased by a hawk, and OSP rightly pointed out that he has turned into a shadow of what Bruce could be if he kept on sinking in his denial of aging and not being able to be "Batman" anymore. And that's exactly the point: Ra's kept on sinking ever lower to escape death, and if Bruce did the same for... anything, be it being Batman or retiring from the cape and cowl, he would just be running away. I think I remember that, in the comics, Ra's al Ghul literally came back from death because of the Lazarus Pit, and what would stop Bruce from doing the same? At what point does turning back the clock for his body turn into the same kind of slip up or denial of his limits like when he picked up that gun?

[@AcePianoNoises]

My fav "Batman is a curse" moment for Bruce is in the JLU episode "Kid Stuff" where *SPOILERS* at the end, when they're turned back into adults, Diana says "it was fun being a kid again" and Bruce is just like "I haven't been a kid since I was eight years old"

[@Tacom4ster]

Red is like the greatest KZbinr on the DCAU, Watchtower Database being second

[@CrossTrash]

Hey hey, J's Review's is up there

[@bravestoffairies6710]

Watchtower Defense enjoyers unite

[@iainoftheizzetleague9850]

Do you mean Watchtower Database? If not, I have a new channel to check out

[@Tacom4ster]

@@iainoftheizzetleague9850 fixed

[@LegendStormcrow]

Shady Dewrags is really good too.

[@DepressedPlatypus]

Here is my interpretation of what i think should be Batman: A monster with a heart. Everyone in Gotham thinks Batman isnt someone in a costume but is a full on supernatural monster that fights criminals. Despite this, people feel safe when they see it appear when their in a bad situation. It brings this sense of hope and kindness to them, despite it being a monster it doesn't kill anyone and seemingly tries to help criminals get better. It may not be human, but its just as kind and caring as a human, if not more. That's my ideal Batman; a monster that can still bring hope to those around it

[@MrExtraordinaire16]

You know what, I kinda dig that. For me, I beleive bruce Wayne should be the face of the identity that is batman but batman is the domineering characteristics of what is the character.

[@DepressedPlatypus]

@@MrExtraordinaire16 I interpret that he is Bruce Wayne... kinda. The Bruce Wayne the public see is the mask, but the real Bruce is Batman, the real Bruce Wayne is someone who's become one with Batman

[@Duiker36]

I mean, he's a werewolf. Except it's a bat. Or something. Maybe a wereninja.

[@MrExtraordinaire16]

@connormiller404 Oh shoot, I am so sorry. I just got the notification today for some reason. I, for one, think that's equally valid. Both batman and bruce do show moments of one and the other, so I 💯 percent agree about that. For me, it just feels more enjoyable to see batman outside he's comforte zone. I kinda do like bruce and batman in constant battle with each other and all together. Having two identities that aren't the full picture of the real person just adds a laire of tragedie for me, which I really enjoy. That's the fun part of their dynamic about, you can have different perceptions of what the relationship is, and it's valid in some way.

[@DepressedPlatypus]

@@MrExtraordinaire16 I'm also a ferm believer in this: Owlman from earth 3 is the ultimate nihilist, nothing matters, no one can be a better person, meaing Batman is the ultimate optimist. Bruce doesn't kill just because he doesn't want to be like the man who killed his parents, he believes anyone can be a good person.

[@ShiftySetax]

1:10:28 Reminds me of Spiderverse Miles: How are you cooler under the mask?! Hobie: I was this cool the whole time. It's a quick moment, and it's played for a joke, but I think it hits the same meaning. Hobie understands that Spider-Punk isn't cool, he is.

[@Blueeyesthewarrior]

Hobie is the BEST. What a great character. I thought initially that he was going to be some tired Hollywood spoof of an anarchist, but then he came out swinging as an actual proper anarchist with a well-defined moral code.

[@malikdespanie4344]

"Anyone can wear the mask"

[@GeorgeCowsert]

You can really tell that Terry is the ideal Batman when he manages to parry away all of Joker's antics. Because Bruce has his strict mindset of "complete the mission" he can't afford to find ways to really deconstruct his rogues gallery to get them mentally out of the fight. The only one he even tries with is Harley Quinn, and even then, it's half assed. Terry? He can pick up on what actually drives his villains and dismantle their entire perspective. The Joker becomes trivial when all of his antics get called out for what they are: a desperate cry for attention by a sad and broken man.

[@joshuaizly5502]

Exactly I see Joker fans treating him like a god who understand that he is in a comics and nothing has consequences who can change his backstory etc. I understand rhe hype, the movies are awesome but at the end of the day it's a dude who dresses like a clown and commit crimes to cope with a single bad day.

[@EmrysMerlin8807]

One episode I think should have been mentioned in this was Meltdown- the one where Mr. Freeze comes back. Seeing the different ways Terry and Bruce deal with Victor Freeze is really fascinating.

[@marocat4749]

and how technically both were right, but bruce gives it to terry and shows support to keep that optimism and belief in people alive.

[@niteowel9052]

I have an ex who’s like weirdly TOO INTO the whole joker persona thing, and the part about how joker can dish it out but can’t take it is SO FUNNY because that is exactly how my ex would behave. It’s funny to see he took joker’s weaknesses along with his strengths

[@novameowww]

joker persona? that's just like video games

[@Nike-gs8ig]

A guy saying he relates to the Joker is such a huge red flag, good that you got out of that.

[@Theuglymug]

Was this after a blood transplant by chance?

[@Geth-Who]

I think my favourite part of Miller's subtextual portrayal is that I'm a massive Discworld fan. And comparing Bruce Wayne's beast, which the rich boy cultivates for vengeance, with Sam Vimes' beast, which the slum-raised copper keeps tightly leashed because he knows that leash is the only thing holding the law together at all? Chef-kiss contrast in character studies.

[@purplepedantry]

Batman Homework is a phrase I fully expect to come into common use lest I become the next theatre kid to do villainy.

[@ob2kenobi388]

A quote from The Doctor that I feel really gets to the heart of Batman as well: "And do you know what you do with all that pain? You hold it tight, until it burns your hand, and you say this: 'No one else will ever have to live like this. No one else will ever have to feel this pain. Not on my watch.' "