Blacksmithing for Beginners - How To Manage Forging Scale

[@dirk4926]

Removing scale from red hot steel is like toweling yourself off while taking a shower.

[@df-intheshop330]

Wish I had thought of that one.LOL

[@Seagull780]

You don't towel yourself off while showering?

[@manobrass]

Thanks Dennis. Information like this is fantastic for novices like myself. Many blacksmith youtubers don't talk about the most rudimentary stuff because it's, well, rudimentary. But some of the rudimentary knowledge is what beginners need most.

[@christopherneelyakagoattmo6078]

Good stuff as always; using science and practical experience to explain best practices.

[@dalekidd420]

Thanks for putting this out there, Dennis. It does seem to run contrary to popular thinking and established techniques, but it is certainly difficult to argue with when you see it in slow motion. I think I'm going to have to modify my technique a bit...

[@Jojobizzare80]

Can scale be smelted

[@rihenry7364]

If you've got the heat source to do it. I've read of people grinding it down and using it as a powder in Canister welds, but I don't know how well it works.

[@brandoncohen2622]

Your not creating enough volume to make it worth the effort

[@workwithnature]

Hi nice video and explanation. It makes a lot of sense. I am just working on my first knife and the scale is sticking to the bottom of the knife. The side that is flat on the anvil. This is what seams to me to be making the unsightly indentations not the stuff on the anvil. I like the way you explain to forge at a lower temperature to clean it all up and am at that stage now. But I just spend 8 h forging a lump of truck leaf spring into a nice shape so I need to know if a high carbon steel can be hammered at the lower temperatures? You read that it is not a good idea to hit it below red. What are your thoughts on it. Appreciate the video.

[@df-intheshop330]

In my experience in general toolmaking the stress comes from making major changes to the shape at temperatures close to or below critical. So in theory straightening a blade or doing light hammering to refine the surface should not place any stress in the blade that cannot be removed by the annealing process.. The problem is that the thin cross section of a blade cools so quickly that it may be showing a dull red on the surface but be well bellow critical on the face of the anvil. So I can see how stress could develop if you are trying to forge a blade too thin and too close to critical. The old saying is still the best approach - Forge thick and grind thin.

[@workwithnature]

Thanks for getting back to me on it. The knife is around 2mill thick alright. Ha to late now :) So I will try and see if I can keep it cooler for the last clean up. Thanks for the information. Looking forward to the next video.

[@MLFranklin]

Very interesting and helpful.

[@chopper549]

I saw a guy who forged without scale on the gas horn, probably just you have a lot of oxygen in the oven.

[@peppikacca1074]

very interesting and informative

[@karlculated5769]

In short it is the cousin of rust. Kind of the same but different.

[@vanpat52]

thank you Dennis, I learn always something new watching your videos. Greetings from Belgium

[@gabrielnavarro8721]

Hi, as always, great video. This is something very few people talk about on internet. Scale management is an important part of the averal esthetic of a piece. Understanding how and when to fight against scale is a big help, keep sharing your knowledge, you are a glold mine (Iron mine maybe ?)

[@rurikaunimoto]

Not what I was looking for but good to know, thank you. Me not finding what I was looking for was the algorithms fault and not yours if I made it sound like that.

[@Torskel]

Tell Alec Steele this, he is religious about brushing and cleaning Anvil

[@SirFuseable]

Thanks. Useful to know.

[@Glasher1]

Are there any uses for scale post forging worth saving it?

[@fieroboom]

Yet again, another phenomenal demonstration!! 😁👍

[@hightowerone]

So if it's in a twist then you're just out of luck? Thanks for your time

[@huebdoo]

can you recycle the scale back into iron or is it wasted?

[@edgarderschmied4497]

Informative video, Greetings from germany Edgar

[@boediethebuilder918]

extremely helpful thank you very much

[@larrydbrazil]

Thank you for this demonstration and discussion. Though there are often recommendations to use the wire brush often, your argument and evidence are convincing and will save me time and effort. Thanks!

[@AJ-sb8qk]

1st off let me just say that as I'm studyin to advance in my career & this video was absolutely amazing and cleared up a lot of stuff that I'm reading about but never actually seen, so I do have a question, I read that cracking that occurs due to the solidification of metal in ingots can be removed by chipping or scarfing so I'm assuming that the purpose of the scarfing process is simply to remove defects in metal after the metal has solidified.... do you have any knowledge on that process that you could share and again awesome awesome awesome video I'm a new subscriber and I will be following, checking you out and sharing your videos

[@ziopoe]

I'm curious about your opinion on putting wather on the anvil to displace the scale with vapor, i've heard of this technique watching some japanese forging video. You essentially trade temperature for a clean piece, is it worth it?

[@df-intheshop330]

I have thought a lot about the water on the anvil thing mainly because these are master craftsman and if they are doing it than it must be for a reason. The the only thing I can think of is that the water is cooling the outside of the blade so the scale is able to break away even though the core temp of the blade is high. Also the water could act as a barrier to prevent further scale from forming. Water jets are still used today in steel mills to blast off scale in rolling mills. I don't know if the steam generated from the initial contact is all that important because they do continue to hammer even after the blade is too cold the vaporize the water. I'm not sure what you mean by trading temperature for a clean piece but i only do that "cold" hammering when i need something that must have a very smooth forged texture. I takes a long time so I don't do it very often. Everything I do is usually forged hot and left as forged.

[@MeridianoSeven]

I'm still learning with his tutorials. His works are very good, explains very well how to make them. Greetings from Argentina.

[@ziopoe]

Sorry but my english is quite bad, i meant when you forge with water you trade your temperature for a clean piece because the part will cool faster with water but you get less scale. Thanks for your reply, i really appreciate it.

[@Kurokubi]

DF - In The Shop DF - In The Shop the steam doesn't do so mush of removing the scale as it does "powderize" it. It's the same concept as pouring cold water into a warm glass cup. It weakens the "structural integrity" of the scale when it hits the water. Once struck with a hammer, you are essentially shot ting the heat into the anvil and water. Think of it as the heat being pulled along by the force being transfered from the hammer to the anvil. When this happens, the concentrated heat will make the temperature rise exponentially (heat that is in turn lost because of heat transfer and added friction. After all, heat is just the rawest form of energy. The best way to explain the friction thing is by hitting two ball bearings together with a piece of paper between them. The friction caused by the transfer of energy burns a hole in the paper, but I digress) thus causing the water to violently turn to steam which then shatters the scale into powder. You see smith's continue to hammer after the piece has cooled because the scale is still hotter than the water, which is where the whole "hot water in cold glass" thing comes into play. The water does stop new scale from forming to an extent but it doesn't stop it completely. The water is purely to clean off scale as you get closer to the finished product. Usually done when forging the bevels and finer details. Whether it's the best method or not is questionable as most japanese swordsmiths do this purely to stick to tradition as japan is just like that. When the technique was created, it was more than likely due to available resources or, in more honest terms, it's nearly nonexistent resources. Japanese iron comes from something called tamahagane (Tama meaning "round and precious" and hagane meaning "steel") which is taken from iron sand (satetsu) iron sand is simply sand with a very high concentration of steel. The iron sand is then put in some called a Tatara, which is essentially a clay box, and heated for three days in order seperate the steel from the slag. This is the only way the japanese could aquire steel so you can understand that it was very precious and it's availability was limited. They couldn't make things like a butchers block brush or scraper because it was considered a waste of product. They came to use water as a means of cleaning off the scale so they could actually whet and polish with the natural stones they had available but, again, I digress. Essentially, whether using the watering method is the best method is up to each individual to decide for themselves. Water is essentially free so it's a viable method for those who are on a budget or don't want to spend the money on a block brush. Hope that helps with anything.

[@meusana3681]

its not the vapor, its the shock from the steam that blows the scale off. And nope, you dont lose a lot of heat this way. But in practice its only used when you are afraid of cold shuts.

[@shepardsforgeh2031]

love that,u addressed this topic thank you! you didnt say,anything i didnt,already know from experiance but am glad to,see we r on the same page!

[@DBacaMaker]

Thank you very much for this detailed instruction. I have always had questions about scale as I am absolutely new and am trying to learn as much as I can before I really get started.

[@jasonscott7803]

👍✌️⚒️

[@victorcuevas1735]

Thanks I was wondering about it

[@MichaelJCaboose013]

Hey Dennis. Another thing I think about regarding scale is the fire itself. A reducing (fuel rich) fire tends to develop less scale than an oxydizing (high air) mix. Is this correct, and is it vvorth using a reducing mix to minimize scale? I vvould love to see a video on this, especially in the context of forge vvelding. Great channel, thank you as alvvays! (do pardon the lack of double-U's, that key doesn't vvork on my keyboard haha)

[@df-intheshop330]

I do have some forge welding videos. You may have to borrow a computer I don't think you will find them by typing Forge UUelding . A reducing or neutral fire also reduces the risk of burning the metal.

[@LoneWolfsVoice]

Have you ever looked into file cutting? Specifically making the tools that would allow one to cut files?

[@df-intheshop330]

I've always wanted to make files but I haven't had the time to experiment with it. I'll have to try it soon - I'm getting a lot of people asking about it.

[@johnwest4788]

I'm interested in scale and forge welding. I've seen some You Tube videos that seem to suggest that with mild steel, if you get the metal to a hot enough temperature, that the scale will melt and therefore will not contaminate the forge weld. Some people have suggested that there is no need to flux mild steel for forge welding; that you need to flux high carbon steel only because you cannot subject it to the higher temperatures without damaging the steel. Is this accurate? i.e. that a high enough temperature will melt the scale so no flux is needed to forge weld? Thanks!

[@df-intheshop330]

Temperature is important of course but it is useless if your fire isn't right. I'm not a metallurgist but in simple terms the type of scale that forms on the metal when the fire has too much air will not weld. Flux can help to coat the metal and keep it from oxidizing but the best approach is to have a deep fire that is solid so the air has time to be consumed by the fire before it reaches the metal. In that type of fire it is possible to weld without flux. However at welding heat with no flux you have to be very careful because any excess of air will cause the metal to burn at a very fast rate. That's why I like the security blanket of using flux.

[@johnwest4788]

Thanks. I have to say that you are the only person I know with a You Tube channel who takes the time to answer all these questions!

[@CharisWilliams]

That's cool!

[@brandoncohen2622]

I love scale

[@youmanskids]

your logical evaluation and commong sense is very helpful, thanks for the education.