Elaborating on Scott Stokely (Turning your head will KILL your distance)

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[@raulisavela3503]

Rarely if ever I care to comment on technique videos but I feel like this is a receipt for injury. People who are unable to create the correct lower body sequence and try to fix it by not turning their head with the lower body will result in injury. This is either a lower body sequence problem or if the head is leading too much forward a balance issue, it could be both but it absolutely has nothing to do with your head. So if you are struggling with the sequence or balance and try to fix it by keeping your head still, or tilt the head or whatever will 100% result in neck or spinal injury. Like you say at the end head needs to stay loose, relaxed. Head needs to move with the body, not against it. btw I like your videos and the quality is constantly improving but this is something you should do more research on and maybe even do some corrections, just to keep people not hurting themselves.

[@mccsnackin]

Idk about all that.

[@dgspindoctor]

The injury card is played, as per usual, when a competing coach disagrees. But thanks for the appendix anyway. I will answer and pin your comment so that people can read it and avoid this lesson if they choose to. If the head is relaxed and plays with the body, there is no risk of injury. You don't want to tense the neck either way, but most amateurs do that. They lead with the head and tense the muscles in their throwing arm, shoulder, and neck, and THAT can cause an injury in the long run; throwing with the neck and shoulder tensed. As I have made a dozen videos about the lower body, I have covered it well enough to tackle the other probable causes of bad form. The position of your head dictates the position of your upper body. If you don't turn your head, your shoulders won't turn. Is that what you teach? I know you don't. I teach that you let the head move with the body, which will happen if you brace and follow through. The head will move with the body if you let it move. This is what I say in basically every video, including this. It takes immense willpower and neck muscles to keep the head still as your shoulders rotate open, i.e., not to move the head with the body. I have tried my best and couldn't do it, no matter what. And I'm stiff, strong, and willing to sacrifice my health to get to the bottom of things. In every form check, I get the same problem; the player throws their head forward. That is the actual problem with them, and before they fix their posture, it can be challenging, if not impossible, to try to fix the lower body. No matter what you do with the legs, if you head butt the target, you will run over the brace. Do you teach that? I know you don't. Do you teach people to throw over the brace? I know you don't. What is the difference between us? That I don't know. So what is the problem here? Be specific. Where do I say anything that goes against common physiology and basic knowledge of form? I know in Finland, there is a growing movement of competing coaches trying to denigrate my reputation by misrepresenting my teaching, which I guess is only natural at this point. However, I am not competing with anyone, just to be precise. But I would like the denigration campaign to be played fairly so that you guys would criticize what I say and not what you think I say. It would also make my defending a bit easier. If you fight with a straw man, I can't reply. I would love to know how to correct the message of this video without repeating everything I said...

[@raulisavela3503]

I am not sure why would you need to defend yourself or sacrifice your health in an attempt to test things when this is a pretty well researched subject in all of sports, especially in golf. Even Seabas has a video talking about how keeping the head still is the worst advice. You start the video by saying turning your head will never add anything to your throw, less you use your head the more you get distance. I thought I was pretty clear in my original comment. Your head is not the issue in the throwing errors you described and trying to make it so will lead into injury due to putting torque into your spine, shoulders and neck. Not a big fan of you putting me into "you guys" group as I am being pretty damn sincere here just trying to help.

[@raulisavela3503]

and better yet, I can discuss about this on a private platform with you. You can delete all these comments if you feel they are out of place.

[@dgspindoctor]

Yes, I specifically say not to turn the head because it will turn itself with the body. To consciously turn it is to tense it at the wrong moment. People always turn it because they think they get something out of it. They don't. Again, you are just trying to misunderstand my words.

[@deakemarschall2992]

Scott Stokely is the man. I've been accused of not using my head by many folks. Scott says it's OK and that makes me happy.

[@dgspindoctor]

In life, use your head. In disc golf, don't use your head.

[@joshchojnacki8506]

This has been one of my biggest issues. I've been progressing, but hopefully this will help even more. Love the videos!

[@dgspindoctor]

Try it. Front side of the chin first.

[@Baphelon]

I'm a very green player, less than 10 full courses under my belt, but watching your videos and just drilling in my backyard has amazed my friends when we go to play together just by how much improvement there is each time we go out. I knocked my 9-hole score in HALF on my second go after watching some of your videos, and whenever I felt like I was plateauing I'd just run back here and watch more vids (like I am right now)

[@dgspindoctor]

Great! Keep at it!

[@_TDG]

Holy crap this is a good video. Really really good coaching, Jaani! Very clear language and very good understanding of the biomechancis. I really like the 'allow the head to tilt away from the throwing direction' cue, that one is new to me but its totally correct. To me it feels like allowing the force to be projected forward by the torso rotating and the head is allowed to stay loosely supported in place resulting in the little tip towards the rear of the throw. Really good stuff, keep it up!

[@dgspindoctor]

Wow, thank you!

[@derekrochniak363]

I don’t know if lifting my head too soon was hurting my distance, but it was definitely killing my accuracy.

[@dgspindoctor]

It does both!

[@mccsnackin]

I think for me it’s simplest to correct people leading with their head by teaching “follow the disc with your eyes, don’t lead the disc with your eyes” or some similar phrase.

[@dgspindoctor]

If it works, of course. Would take quite fast eyes to keep up with the disc, though. I mean, trying to move the head the same pace as the disc is downright impossible, but if you can pull off a stunt like that, I bow down in awe!

[@mccsnackin]

@@dgspindoctor follow as in escort or come behind.

[@dgspindoctor]

Yes, like I say in some of my later videos. Escort the disc.

[@andrewgalamb2395]

I was messing around left handed and I felt like my throws improved massively when I tried to look at the disc in my back swing. I definitely wasn't trying to watch the disc the whole way through but that cue started my head in the right orientation

[@dgspindoctor]

That might be the trick for you!

[@discsmd]

Yeah, I had a BIG problem wth pulling my head through my throw. I still struggle with it from time to time. I've talked about this in a few videos as well. Keeping the head neutral is what we need to do. Keep the head relaxed, like you said, is ideal. Another nice one, sir. Thanks!

[@MrKevlarkent]

great video, it was clear to me from the beginning that what youre talking about is having a loose, neutral position of the head that doesnt offset your balance or swing, as opposite to forcing your head to stay still despite the movement of your body, like someone assumed

[@dgspindoctor]

Let it happen, don't force anything. I thought I had said it enough times for people to understand already 🙂.

[@stefanelf7794]

The idea of rotating the whole torso as one unit, as opposed to moving the arm separately to the body, has helped me a great deal recently (as I interpret it, this means you “coil” and don’t “reach back”). This means the head and spine stay centred, neutral to the motion. So I have found rotating the whole torso to be helpful in avoiding head tilt.

[@patman8945]

every far throwing person has this nice lag when rear arm , back leg , and head stays still before follow through to make a great balance and strenghten your bracing! , but also us "mortal" daddies should do some Hip/pelvis exercises to create some mobility and get better posture if dreaming about good distance throws! :D great video , keep going!

[@dgspindoctor]

Absolutely, and absolutely!

[@OGgreezball]

Thanks for all of these extremely informative videos! Your knowledge is greatly appreciated 🙏

[@dgspindoctor]

My pleasure!

[@ChrisSolarski]

Keep the videos coming, please!

[@dgspindoctor]

I'll try to, thanks!

[@lfe4514]

Its actually crazy to think about , many beginners who starts throwing and fresh ones , their balance is quite behind and no chance to go over brace , they just throw into sky with big rounding and much weight on back leg , but then you ”Evolve” into opposite 🤣

[@dgspindoctor]

And at some point you find the golden mean.

[@scotranney8456]

Turning the head early will definitely take away distance and accuracy, and it's not hard to do fix that issue in a way that feels completely natural. For students that have their footwork down, I do a drill by standing off to the side of the tee pad ("in front" of them), have them look at the target for the first half of their walk up, and as soon as they start reaching back (out) have them look at me until the disc is out of their hands. With good spacing in their foot placement and keeping their head towards me, they open up all sorts of space for the disc and usually get the feel of it pretty quick. The amount of snap you feel when you do what McBeth and all the other pros do is hard to forget :)

[@dgspindoctor]

And 100% injury rate? Nah, just kidding, sounds good!

[@scotranney8456]

@@dgspindoctor Ha! Actually, I see more injuries when people turn their head early. It gets their body around too early and if they are also putting weight on their front toes and their foot gets locked in the 90 degree position (instead of weight more on the heel) then long term hip injuries can easily happen. Keeping the head 90 degrees from the target line until the disc is released kind of forces the player's weight to stay centered, which simultaneously keeps weight off the front toes. In the big picture the problem I see most often is people trying too hard to throw fast. I'm an old guy (57) but I have whip so even though my body isn't as fast as the young guys, I have enough release speed in my wrist to get the disc out over 425 without any real effort. The only times I hurt myself are when I try too hard.

[@dgspindoctor]

@@scotranney8456 YES! This is exactly what I thought too, and I tried to tell in the video.

[@brannnnnnn]

love your videos and attitude about the game

[@sarinhighwind]

Driving with the head is one of the worse things you can do. I fall for this one myself too, ended up hurting my neck.

[@dgspindoctor]

Seems like whatever you do or don't do with the head, the result is INJURY.

[@jonathantullock6922]

It’s funny how bad body mechanics/ body movements have a way of rearing their ugly head in various rotational sports. I am 40 now and play disc golf. However when I was a kid playing little league baseball, I could never keep my head still when hitting. My coaches would always tell me “ keep your head down,” or “keep you head still.” I would ask then how to do that. They never could explain to me “how” to not do it, just not to do it. Now I’m not berating them, after all they were volunteers and not professional baseball coaches. And I had fun either way. It’s like the doctor’s advice: “Doc it hurts when I do this.” “Well, don’t do that then.” What am I supposed to do with that advice? Anyway, is the idea of leaning your head back instead of forward more of a drill piece? By that I mean we overcompensate to get the “feel” of not leading with your head? Is the goal to eventually be able to move from leaning the head back to keep the head neutral or more straight up and down? I don’t play ball golf, but I am sure if I did, I would have the same problems keeping my head still during the swing. It’s funny how bad habits can reappear 25 years later when trying to learn a new sport. Thanks for the videos. You are on the very short list of coaches I listen to on YT.

[@dgspindoctor]

The goal is to not do anything with the head. It can only distract you.

[@throwing_circles]

I was pulling my head first when we started working together last year. That was killing me. While I still this sometimes, there is a huge difference in distance and how it feels for me.

[@dgspindoctor]

I remember, and you were the dummy I used in the first video about the head :)

[@throwing_circles]

@@dgspindoctor Hahaha yes, indeed I was!

[@mikalhaland6048]

What about in the run-up? We would like to have our head turned a little bit so we can look at the target for as long as possible? Should our head just be loose and not turned in the run-up?

[@dgspindoctor]

Look at the target for as long as you need. Then as you coil, the shoulders will turn the head without you turning it. Sure, you'll get more coil if you turn the head out of the way. Some do this, some don't. I think you'll save some accuracy if you don't show the back of the head to the target.

[@jakx1227]

I just got back from Greece, I think that's where that is

[@easy3discgolf144]

Yep. First modern Olympic stadium. It was cool to see. Especially coming down the tunnel.

[@casmith1755]

Hell yeah!

[@troggmoffie]

thanks!

[@dgspindoctor]

No problem!

[@user-uv4vm4tz7v]

Got to appreciate the sentiment of picking "Colosseum" as the stage when bringing up touchy subjects like the Quran or The disc golf form

[@dgspindoctor]

Yeah, or more precisely, the original Olympic Stadium in Athens. Touchy subject, I know, but someone's gotta do it.

[@BrucelyWillis]

Great video!

[@dgspindoctor]

Glad you enjoyed it

[@reoov3798]

Keep up the good work. Also what do you think about the channel BlitzDG?

[@dgspindoctor]

Thanks! He seems legit.

[@Tango21C]

I want more distance so I’ll do whatever it takes

[@dgspindoctor]

Throw harder! 😏

[@HARwinsOUTagain]

Buy more discs!

[@dgspindoctor]

Yeah, distance drivers especially.

[@Tango21C]

@@HARwinsOUTagain more destroyers 😂

[@OjaiBonsai]

Steroids! They don’t drug test in disc

[@lassesrensen1762]

Wait - what?? I can use my head for distance control?

[@dgspindoctor]

Or the amount of coil you make.

[@enpeee]

You say that Seppo Paju is tilting his head. But is he, really? Or could it be just an illusion, caused by his high elbow/shoulder at one point?

[@dgspindoctor]

Well, he lets the head do what it does, without tensing it.

[@Rydal1]

hi sir is paul mcbeth chest more towards the target than seppo paju

[@dgspindoctor]

I would say so.

[@ekleduden]

Looking towards target when doing upshots tho? Thoughts?

[@dgspindoctor]

Absolutely. The less you need power and the more you need accuracy, the more you can be open. Think of putting vs. 360 run-up.

[@nordy1226]

I’ve been trying not to move my head until my follow through. More throwing I guess 🤷🏽‍♂️

[@dgspindoctor]

The head moves when it moves, naturally. You don't have to do anything about it. But if you have trouble keeping it still, then this kinda conscious tilt can help you.

[@ericwietzke9158]

Engagement comment

[@arhshields]

trash comment to maximize engagement metrics

[@dgspindoctor]

Not trashy at all!

[@javierh35]

Garbage…

[@wireycoyote3544]

You wont believe...

[@Timmy9501]

+1

[@EricCalhoun]

I like this channel, but sometimes you spend so much time describing the ways people do something wrong, it gets confusing and hard to tell what the correct technique actually is.

[@dgspindoctor]

How do you know I spend time describing the wrong form then? I always say: don't do this, instead do this. And usually recap in the end. I have to, as a teacher, to address the issues in question and not just say: do this. Because most of you think you do the right move if I don't show what you're doing wrong. Thanks for the feedback, anyway.