Diarmaid MacCulloch on Thomas Cromwell, Henry VIII and the reformation

I talk to Professor Diarmaid MacCulloch about his new biography of Thomas Cromwell. We discuss Cromwell's upbringing, his relationship with Thomas Wolsey, Thomas More, Anne Boleyn and Henry VIII, as well as his role in the reformation and the Pilgrimage of Grace.

[@monicacall7532]

A fascinating chat about an equally fascinating book. McCullough and Mantel make Cromwell (Crumel) into a much more nuanced person than many books and films make him to be. I was raised on the “Cromwell was totally evil and Sir Thomas More was a saint.” view. “A Man for All Seasons” was really big where I grew up. Imagine my shock when I read “Wolf Hall” and McCullough’s biography and learned differently!

[@cinemaocd1752]

More is a literal saint. There is church named after him in my town. Hard to believe you could say something like "more protestants should burn" and still be a saint.

[@williamjohnson3093]

This was a really fascinating character analysis of a complex historical figure!

[@tracyhodgkins7516]

I’ve lost count of how many times I’ve listened to this. I’ve listened to the audiobook of McCulloch’s biography of Cromwell and it is, as you would expect, very in-depth, very well researched. The fascinating thing to me is that he doesn’t just reveal Cromwell the statesman, he reveals Cromwell the man. I love the idea of Cromwell holding great parties and being popular with ladies of a certain age! The fascinating thing for me is how much the Cromwell of McCulloch’s biography and the Cromwell of Mantel’s wonderful Wolf Hall trilogy match up, not in every sense, but in certain significant ways. The only thing I would have asked McCulloch about if I interviewed him is how much his wife and daughters deaths might have prompted what definitely appears to have been a wobble in his reformist beliefs around the time of Wolsey’s fall. Cromwell’s wife died, Wolsey fell, Cromwell’s daughters and Wolsey died in a relatively short space of time. That would surely be enough to make anyone question if they were on the right path and, perhaps, make them turn to the faith they knew, which would have been Roman Catholicism. It’s obvious Cromwell found his way through all that, but the idea of those major events triggering a crisis of faith makes sense to me. The thing that really comes over with McCulloch is that he genuinely likes Cromwell. His enthusiasm for his subject takes you with him. Like Mantel, McCulloch avoids the ‘thug in a doublet’ caricature so many people go for when they speak of Cromwell, and brings out a fascinating, well-rounded character, a human being who was flawed and played a significant part in some cruel acts, but was also a man who was genuinely interested in the poor, was very intelligent, probably more intelligent than many of the nobility, someone who was cosmopolitan, had seen the world and travelled. I think that brings Cromwell the man to life. As for the spelling, I totally agree with McCulloch. There was no standardisation of spelling in Cromwell’s time. People wrote words, including names, how they heard them. Even things like accents could impact on spelling. McCulloch’s example from the Pilgrimage of Grace of ‘we’ll crumb him and crumb him….’ just doesn’t make sense if his name was clearly ‘CROMwell’. Also, in another interview McCulloch gives an example of Henry VIII writing in his own hand and referring to Cromwell as ‘Crumell’. That must have been how he heard the name.

[@ElizabethF2222]

It was fascinating to me that Cromwell was allied with Lady Mary and an enemy of Anne Boleyn. I thought it was the other way around. Great video!

[@justanothergoogler6436]

There was no one like Cromwell!

[@2msvalkyrie529]

Really ? Toadies and Sycophants were ( and still are ) common in Royal circles ?

[@arthurfrancisd.murphy1643]

Excellent

[@dolinaj1]

MacCulloch and Mantel admired one another, stated by each in separate venues.

[@angelakyle4838]

So Interesting - I wanted it to be much longer.

[@matthewjohnbornholt648]

Thanks that was great!

[@matthewjohnbornholt648]

Also you need to make these videos easier to search, authors/academic names aren't enough. Reformation, Cromwell, Heretics etc use the key words in the headline.

[@beverlyfletcher4458]

Fascinating. I have his biography of Cranmer - not finished otherwise - I would have known he nearly came to a sticky end long before Mary! That Irish connection: truth is often stranger than fiction.

[@julieblackstock8650]

had the book on audio,. its really well done. I am very interested in Thomas Cromwell and I think his portrayal by Mark Rylance in Wolf Hall was the best one yet. I am hoping to see a final series next year.

[@MarlboroughBlenheim1]

It was very sympathetic. It showed him veering away from torture, when in fact he used it a lot

[@Thepourdeuxchanson]

@@MarlboroughBlenheim1 Much less than his contemporaries. Even at the time it was remarked upon.

[@aaronclarke7732]

@@Thepourdeuxchanson source?

[@andrewcassidy4799]

I really enjoyed this interview, is it just a one off? David Coast mentioned a podcast at the beginning, but I couldn't find that anywhere. Is there any more of your interviews / work about? Thanks!

[@francesca9423]

This is such an old comment, but if you’re still interested, I think the podcast episode is: ‘Tudor talks: the life of Thomas Cromwell’ :)

[@andrewcassidy4799]

@@francesca9423 yes, still interested! Thanks for that!

[@francesca9423]

@@andrewcassidy4799 wait I’ve got my podcasts confused! Sorry about that. I got them muddled when looking through the history ones I (rather sadly) have saved in a playlist aha. But I watched the video again and Im now thinking the ‘podcast’ he’s referring to might just be the video itself? If you’d still like to know more though, the channel ‘travels through time’ did one called ‘an interview with Diarmaid MacCulloch about Thomas Cromwell’ here on youtube which you might find interesting? it’s more similar to this video than that first podcast I mentioned. Sorry about the initial confusion :)

[@stjohnschurcholdcoulsdon4982]

I would love to have heard MacCulloch give his opinion on the Wolf Hall trilogy. I wonder if the popular interest in Cromwell sparked off his interest at all?

[@francesca9423]

wolf hall didn’t inspire him to write the biography, he wanted to do it anyway - his research even started before it I think? - and he’s said he was interested in Cromwell from his university days. As for the books, he has a good opinion of them. He’s said he thinks Hilary picked up on some great details and was impressed with her knowledge of the Tudor world

[@EthioMod]

Needs more brightness

[@frankdsouza2425]

The Discussion has all the brightness that the Mind could wish for.

[@2msvalkyrie529]

Does Prof McCulloch's historical expertise extend into any other area apart from Cromwell....? Seems more like an obsession..??

[@jonathanstempleton7864]

Spelling, even of surnames, was not fixed in those days. William Shakespeare signed his name several different ways. Spelling does not necessarily determine pronunciation.

[@francesca9423]

But if there’s a pattern or consistent repetition - as there is with Cromwell’s name - it seems suggestive of pronunciation, no? with no standardisation, it makes sense people would naturally gravitate towards writing a name the way it sounds Ofc there’s also the point about ‘crumb’ which backs up MacCulloch’s theory rather well I think aha

[@duckbizniz663]

With all due respect for the very intelligent Prof. Diarmaid MacCulloch on the issue of politics being very personal. Yes, I think politics can be very personal but the modern elected representative politic system, the right to have your own political opinion, multi-party political system where there are rules that determine who is elected and what powers they possess is far more stable than the absolute power of Monarchy. When you have absolute power then any goes because the winners take all. Killing people even close associates is the quick and absolute solution to any problem. You see the purges and assassinations in 20th century Communist states with absolute power leadership. Stalin taking out old political allies (even in a single-party state) with show-trials, purges, gulags, and assassinations/executions. Or Mao Zedong taking out his old political supporters who he himself appointed into high positions because disagreements on government policy. When Mao's Great Leap Forward and Collectivization programs failed leading to the starvation of farming communities. A few of his political appointees within the Communist Party suggested changing his programs. Mao turned on his old supporters and accused them of being counter-revolutionaries. He ordered that they be purged and many were killed. Deng Xiao-ping was lucky and only received several years of house arrest. Mao used his Cultural Revolution to destroy any opposition to his misguided and totally effectual programs, and his refusal to admit failure led to the famine that killed 30-40 million peasant farmers over several years. Absolute power corrupts absolutely. The type of political system that you have makes you far more susceptible to barbarism.

[@kevinbergin9971]

So was he really related?

[@shawn6669]

To whom? Oliver Cromwell? Oliver Cromwell is like his great, great, great, nephew.

[@margyrowland]

MacCulloch doesn’t understand Catholicism because he’d know that Cromwell’s prayers to Our Lady are because she will intervene to Her Son on behalf of the sinner when Jesus himself may condemn them. It’s a genuine sign of Cromwell’s fear of eternal damnation and has absolutely nothing to do with “mother”. Love from Australia 🇦🇺

[@francesca9423]

I think MacCulloch meant it as a metaphor rather than a literal interpretation of Catholic prayer. Cromwell reaching out to his “mother” is just another way of saying he was taking comfort (at a time of great uncertainty) in the first form of Christianity he had known: Catholicism (Also he’s literally an expert in religious/ecclesiastical history he knows exactly what he’s talking about ahah)