Making the real Thomas Cromwell stand up

[@TheBritishAcademy]

Thank you very much for all of your questions and to Diarmaid for his time. We look forward to sharing our next British Academy 10-Minute Talk on Wednesday 29 April, 1pm by Professor Rana Mitter FBA. Subscribe to our channel to be notified of this and sign up to our newsletter for updates and other interesting things to read, watch and listen: eepurl.com/gaThWL.

[@seanalexandermcgrath7593]

Just completed Diarmaid's biography on Cromwell. An excellent read. I also attended a talk on Cromwell given by Diarmaid at last Summer's BBC in conversation programmes at Mount Stewart, Northern Ireland. An enjoyable day. Thanks British Academy for these 10 minute talks, such a great idea.

[@scottwooder9772]

This shows what a lecturer should do. They shouldn’t be expected to give all the answers, they should inspire curiosity.

[@poppymarenge8131]

Ten minutes is just about right to give a taste of the subject and then we can study it further if we wish. Looking forward to it.

[@prolix6x]

Excellent presentation! You have to respect genuine historians!

[@gwynwellliver4489]

After reading HM's trilogy, I will have to add Diarmaid's book to my list. I once learned that Holbein may have liked More better than Cromwell, because he painted a more flattering portrait of More. Love that Cromwell respected Holbein enough to hang the portrait anyway.

[@janel342]

You are a joy to listen to! Thank you. So many academics don’t speak well. You are clear and concise with an obvious passion for your subject. A delight!

[@LindaLinda80Linda]

Every critic seems to agree this biography is the best ever written just as Mantel’s novels are the best on Cromwell. Wish I could ask this very wise man how he did not see the end coming? Especially as Henry had bestowed titles on Wolsey and Anne before he had them killed just as he did with Cromwell. With his connections on the continent, Cromwell might have had a few more years under the protection of another patron.

[@manuelgonzales2570]

Excellent video! Thank you!

[@louiseglynne-walton1725]

I was really looking forward to this and it certainly didn't disappoint. Thank you very much Professor MacCulloch for a fascinating insight into a very complex man.

[@TheBritishAcademy]

Question via KZbin: To what extent do you think the King acted through Cromwell or do you think there were times Cromwell acted through the King? Answer: It’s a fascinating relationship, in which Cromwell always acknowledged the King as boss, but also knew his psychology very well. That meant that he could choose the right moment to promote his own policy when the King would be receptive. Undoubtedly, Cromwell promoted his own religious agenda, which was not the King’s.

[@juliakelly5562]

thank you

[@olivermorris5452]

Brilliant. Thank you!

[@remotecutts6580]

Just spent a wonderful time absorbed in 'The Mirror and the Light'. Looking forward to another perspective.

[@DanSmith-j8y]

Wolf Hall, for accuracy, is basically on the level of Outlander.

[@philliphamilton3591]

Wow, fascinating, this brief introduction has already answered several difficult questions. Thank you. I can not wait to purchase this book.

[@everhippiewillow5575]

Very interesting content, I only wish it could have gone on longer; very enjoyable. Thank you.

[@TheBritishAcademy]

Question via KZbin: In your opinion, as so many of his own letters have gone missing, who reflects Thomas Cromwell's personality best in their archives? Answer: A good question! I would say his great friend and eventual protégé, Rowland Lee, who became bishop of Coventry and Lichfield and Lord President of the Council of the Marches of Wales. They were genuine friends, and Lee became an honorary uncle to Cromwell’s son Gregory. Lee’s letters sparkle with a savage wit. You wouldn’t want to get on the wrong side of him, as many a dodgy Welshman could testify.

[@charlotteday3619]

Fantastic, thank-you for answering my question! Are there any books that you would recommend that feature elements of Rowland Lee's archives?

[@nickread354]

Been reading about the coat of arms and the portrait in the biography ten minutes before this transmission. Rather well timed ! One thing always leads to another, so I hope we can look forward to a future excellent biography of Mary Tudor.

[@TheBritishAcademy]

Question via KZbin: Where are the papers housed? Answer: Cromwell’s archive is now divided between the National Archives at Kew and the British Library. That’s because some of his papers, which were in the royal archive in the 16th century, were pinched by a historian called Sir Robert Cotton, and they now form the basis of the Cottonian collections in the BL. His own letters to other people are virtually all in the scattered fragments of other peoples’ archives, including another National Archives cache in the confiscated papers of Arthur Plantagenet, Lord Lisle.

[@TheBritishAcademy]

Question via email: What is the episode in Cromwell's life you’d most like to know more about? Answer: When Thomas Cromwell married his son to Elizabeth Seymour, he set them up in a magnificent estate in Sussex, at Lewes. Within a year, he hastily moved them out of Sussex and placed them in Kent. Gregory had clearly caused a huge local scandal, but we don’t know what it was. There is another interesting problem for someone.

[@1951GL]

A brilliant ten minutes - clear, succinct and explaining much that happened later during the dissolution of the greater monasteries. Thomas Howard thought the Cluniac priory at Thetford which contained the tombs of his predecessors would be spared. It wasn't. Hence his determination to get rid of the common upstart.

[@TheBritishAcademy]

Question via KZbin: How significant do you think was the failure of the marriage of Anne of Cleves to Henry VIII in bringing about Cromwell's downfall? Answer: That’s a good question on which to end. The Anne of Cleves business was crucial to Cromwell’s downfall and execution, because it involved the humiliation of the King. He could only get out of the Cleves marriage by declaring that he could not sexually perform with her. The marriage had been Cromwell’s plan. It was the perfect excuse for his enemies to do what they had wanted to do for a long time: to turn the King against him. Henry soon changed his mind after Cromwell’s execution, but by then it was too late.

[@Adam-dn5ku]

Great Answer thank you.

[@olivermorris5452]

Brilliant! Thank you.

[@annepercival7814]

I wanted MORE!

[@mooshimi3759]

I’m studying Thomas Cromwell as part of my ALevel History course. The parts where he specifically addresses question to do with the relations between Henry VIII and Cromwell were informative and I managed to get some good notes in just 10 minutes !!😄

[@TheBritishAcademy]

Question via email: What was the most surprising discovery you made? Answer: The likelihood that Thomas Cromwell’s father, Walter, was Irish. I have been passed even more evidence of that since finishing the book: a Thomas ‘Cromell’ was an inhabitant of Dublin in the mid-15th century, and is well placed to be Thomas Cromwell’s grandfather. This has the interesting consequence that Oliver Cromwell, who was a descendant of Thomas Cromwell’s sister, was also of Irish descent. This usefully complicates Irish history.

[@Chipoo88]

Thank you. What a fountain of knowledge!

[@steviejd5803]

Thanks for the clear update, it helps me to gain better insight.

[@TheBritishAcademy]

Question via KZbin: I was wondering why you think Cromwell never remarried? Wouldn't that have been quite unusual at the time? Answer: You’re absolutely right. He could have had the pick of any eligible lady in Tudor England. I may be an old romantic, but I think it perfectly possible that he could not face remarriage after the death of his first wife in an epidemic of infectious disease. Instead, he concentrated on finding the right marriage for his beloved son Gregory, and that couldn’t have been better for founding a great dynasty, because the marriage was to the sister of Queen Jane Seymour.

[@Romcom356]

Fascinating. I believe that the two executions Henry most regretted were those of Anne Boleyn and Thomas Cromwell. As in the song lyrics 'you don't know what you've got 'til it's gone.'

[@pollydolly9723]

Wonderful! Thank you.

[@lindawhitehead6149]

I am in fact reading the biography, having read the novels. But I shrink from getting to the end and the downfall. Thanks for the book.

[@pitbull2005]

Wonderful 10 minutes

[@philomenabreen4142]

Very informative as I'm currently watching the tv series. Thank you x

[@reinadegrillos]

Very, very interesting. Thank you for revealing these (surprising) relationships between the actors of Tudor History.

[@Remguy2468]

I am very taken by your astute delving, and your assessments.

[@KatieEllenH]

I read Mantel's trilogy, and before that was familiar with the mainstream history- the merciless Thomas Cromwell...though always with these abiding caveats. His continuing loyalty to Wolsey after his fall, and his generous ways and protection of people in his employment, and a certain sense of humour. This is a sensitive analysis. And that grumpy, unsmiling face in the portrait also has a certain sensitivity- almost delicacy around the mouth.

[@annastinehammersdottir1290]

Although I always knew what is the ending, I have been putting off the last forty pages of The Mirror and The Light for a couple of weeks because Mantel has manifestly convinced me to appreciate this man in the arena. Sigh, but finish it I must.

[@JohnVickersYT]

I turned to this biography of Cromwell after reading Diarmaid MaCulloch's thoroughly masterful biography of Cranmer. Together these two works are a tour de force and present a panoramic yet profound insight into the English reformation. Thank you so much.

[@allisonhogg5131]

I have not read Diarmaid's biography as yet which is a must. I read one biography about Cromwell followed by the Wolf Hall trilogy.

[@tc2433]

Fascinating. Thanks

[@paultester8672]

Excellent as always.

[@jayp6888]

Fascinating! Always follow the money [and career advancers]. I’d not connected the dots between the dissolution of the monasteries and where their money ended up. Would love to hear more about that.

[@AmazingJane137]

Fabulous!

[@TheBritishAcademy]

Question via email: You mention several times that, earlier in Cromwell's career, Henry VIII gave Cromwell increasing powers without accompanying titles to provide formal status within the Court or in public life. What do you think were Henry's motives in being slow to promote Cromwell socially? Answer: I think two-fold: first that he was wary of promoting a man of humble birth after the experience of Thomas Wolsey. There would be members of the nobility who would always resent Thomas Cromwell’s position. But more particularly, too open a promotion of Thomas Cromwell would have infuriated Henry’s mistress and then second wife, Anne Boleyn. It is clear that she was no slouch in staging screaming rows, and Henry VIII was a distinct coward where rows were concerned. So it was easier to give Cromwell powers quietly without formal title. Certainly, his powers became really very great by the mid-1530s.

[@TheBritishAcademy]

Diarmaid is now available for 20 minutes to answer any questions you may have.

[@juliakelly5562]

are we posting our questions in reply to this or in the comments section generally?

[@juliakelly5562]

To what extent do you think the King acted through Cromwell or do you think there were times Cromwell acted through the King?

[@chriscarnall22]

Thank you very much indeed - so interesting. I wonder what the common ground was between Cromwell and The Lady Mary? As you say, on the surface not an alliance one would expect!

[@TheBritishAcademy]

Question via KZbin: The Italian connection any of Cromwell's correspondence in other European archives? Answer: We have very little of Cromwell’s correspondence in archives in mainland Europe. I think that that is because what would survive would be diplomatic correspondence, and the King kept that jealously to himself, mostly because that is what foreign royalty would expect. That is not to say that things might emerge from private archives abroad, they haven’t so far! There is a task for someone else.

[@happychappy7115]

Mary gives Crum an absolute dressing down in W/H series 2. Leaves Crum in tears - not something we see often😮

[@Gilmaris]

Extremely fascinating subject. I was not aware that Cromwell registered his coat of arms - with Wolsey's element - _after_ Wolsey's death. That was pretty cheeky. I do wonder about one thing, though: it is implied that Cromwell burned his own sent mail when he was about to be arrested. This assumes that he was in the habit of writing a duplicate of all sent correspondence for his own archive - was he known to do this, or was it common practice?

[@berrykrautboy5368]

Absolutely common practice in those days, but it wasn't himself, of course, who did the work. This was the job of many clerks in his office. From Germany with best regards...

[@happychappy7115]

It's a wonderful time for all Mantel fans with WH S2 on the box; I've read books 1 & 2 of the trilogy, with The Mirror awaiting me, as my Christmas reading matter. 😊

[@diogenes5654]

Off to find his books! Did and they look fascinating but sadly all are ebooks in our library and no audiobooks...damn

[@fionalickorish2763]

I have always found it amusing that the Frick Collection chose to position Holbein’s painting of Cromwell across a fireplace from that of Sir Thomas More. What do you think their relationship was really like?

[@warwickkeene363]

Fascinating. Thank you. Will you be making more of thsese? I am now subscribed, so hope they pop up if you go. Best wishes from Gold Coast, Qld, Aus

[@TheBritishAcademy]

Question via email: The Cromwell painting attributed to Holbein (in The Frick in New York) doesn't have the same convincing feeling of ‘photographic likeness' that other portraits known to be by Holbein have. How likely do you think it is that this really was painted by Holbein? And would a lost 'original' have been a more 'human', less brutal portrait? Hilary Mantel's books infer a degree of friendship between the two men (or at least a professional and mutual respect). Answer: These things are very subjective. My feeling is that portrait is quite convincing, but these things are matter of taste. Certainly, professional analysis of the portrait doesn’t reveal any alteration to it, unlike the companion portrait of Thomas More in The Frick. You could read that in two different ways: 1. Thomas More was much more interested in his self-image than Cromwell was, and demanded alterations. 2. You could think this is Holbein’s working-up of his original sketches for the portrait of Cromwell. In any case, I think this is the image Thomas Cromwell accepted. Its significance would probably have been different for him. His preoccupied expression would be there to suggest the anxious royal servant trying to please his royal master. In fact, it is very reminiscent of a portrait of man who was one of his early patrons and friends: Sir Henry Wyatt. Another Holbein portrait.

[@TheAMPorter]

I like the portrait. His right eyebrow has a sardonic lift to it, seems to me to suggest that he looks at life with a proper degree of cynicism but doesn't display this to the world at large

[@tonymcmahon_historybear]

Question: How do we square Cromwell the man who presided over the dissolution of the monasteries with Cromwell the protege of the cardinal and ally of Mary? Clearly we're not looking at Team Protestant versus Team Catholic at Henry's court. Help us make sense of it, please?

[@margotwalker7232]

Interesting about the relationship between him and Anne. Always did think they just used each other. No love lost between them. Would like to hear more about his relationship with Sir Thomas More sometime. Just about to dive into Diarmaid's biography so no doubt will get enlightened 😊

[@kenfarnhill7948]

In view of his alliance with Mary, and personal dislike of Anne, and links to Thomas Wolsey, what does this tell us about his religious perspectives at this time?

[@PeterSt1954]

Is it possible that Cromwell dared to express his admiration for Wolsey because the King had privately let it be known that he regretted Wolsey's fall from favour and downfall? Maybe Cromwell was publicly expressing what the King dare not express but would wish to. Impulsive people often regret their actions. Maybe Cromwell was allowed to do it for him.

[@annawright6314]

Where are the papers housed?

[@duckbizniz663]

Appreciate this commentary on Thomas Cromwell. As an American I always find the people of the Britannia fascinating. Cardinal Wolsey tried to secure an annulment of Katherine and Henry's marriage with the Pope, but Wolsey failed. I would think Anne Boleyn and her noble relatives would have appreciated Wolsey's efforts and viewed Cromwell as an ally. The Chancellor after Wolsey, Thomas More, opposed the annulment and supported Katherine. For that Thomas Cromwell would be awarded the More's Chancellorship. Cromwell would try to break More (imprisoned in the Tower of London), support Katherine's annulment, and Anne's marriage to Henry VIII. It was important for Henry VIII to break More's will. More had a horrible reputation as a Man of Principle and Conscience. More would be executed for not yielding to the power of the King. I find this commentary contrary to well-established facts.

[@chriscarnall22]

Thank you very much indeed - so interesting. I wonder what the common ground was between Cromwell and The Lady Mary? As you say, on the surface not an alliance one would expect!

[@timboardman8042]

Good afternoon Thomas Cromwell famously rose to a position of immense power from humble origins, as did his employer Cardinal Wolsey. While both men were of course exceptional in this sense, were they in any way representative of a wider social trend? Tim Boardman

[@grumpyoldman8661]

3:10: Personally, I really don't think you can get any sense of character from portraits of historical figures. Firstly, Cromwell may not have (a) thought it was an unflattering likeness, and (b) perhaps simply didn't care either way. I must hasten to add that I have just started on Professor MacCulloch's biography, which I know to be of the highest standard of scholarship. I have his books on my shelf, my favourite being "Thomas Cranmer". This is a very fine historian, no question of that. (UK)

[@justanothergoogler6436]

Yep. You know his young staff cleared out his mail. They loved the boss.

[@jaja8951]

Could I ask Diarmaid what he thought of the BBC’s latest series wolf Hall with Mark Rylance playing the part of the Thomas Cromwell. Personally I thought it did not depict the actual man even though Mark made a great job of acting the part according to the writers

[@rogerthorley2044]

Am I confused isn’t sent mail posted … why would you expect to find it still in his out tray ?

[@educatingwolsey]

Thank you so much for this :) - I have a question - How did Cromwell avoid being tarnished by his association with Wolsey in the period immediately after Wolsey fell?

[@boogiewoogie9770]

I'm puzzled. Why would Cromwell's household have the letters he has sent to others at the point of his arrest?

[@RalphBrooker-gn9iv]

I came to the same thought. Even if there were copies (no idea if that was possible or practical), the recipients would surely have kept the originals. Or so you’d think.

[@sparkswain2820]

​@RalphBrooker-gn9iv I believe Cromwell kept his original letters and sent only copies to the recipients.

[@edwardwilson4974]

How did Cromwell’s family destroy letters that had been sent??

[@berrykrautboy5368]

By burning the copies of those... Each of Cromwell's papers were copied by his clerks before being sent! From Germany with best regards...

[@edwardwilson4974]

@ In which case, isn’t it odd that they kept all his received post and burnt all his outgoing letters? Anyway, we don’t know what happened to the latter.

[@edwardwilson4974]

How did Cromwelll’s family “stay up all night destroying his sent letters”, when they had been sent? Did he keep copies of all his sent letters? Isn’t it more likely that the families of his recipients “stayed up all night” destroying the sent (ie, received) letters of Cromwell to distance themselves from a condemned man?

[@TomSmith-lf8tr]

Who is the contemporary Thomas Cromwell ? Look forward to your opinions.

[@olivermorris5452]

To what extent did were Cromwell's religious reforms made independently of Henry?

[@olivermorris5452]

Was there a Q and A part?

[@jamesp8569]

There must be something in the low born upbringings of Cromwell and Wolsey that drew them closer to the illegitimate Tudor royal house. All speculative and subjective of course, but fascinating.

[@juliakelly5562]

To what extent do you think the King acted through Cromwell or do you think there were times Cromwell acted through the King?

[@eddielasowsky7777]

Thomas More's portrait is almost photo-realistic compared to Cromwell's.

[@tamaraspink4201]

I don’t understand why these are only ten minutes long?! If you have an expert, why not make more use of them and push the boat out with a full half hour?!

[@TheBritishAcademy]

Hi Tamara - we're really excited to be doing these new talks. We're keeping them to 10 minutes because we wanted these to be short and accessible for everyone. If you're interested in more ideas from our researchers and experts, we have lots of long reads, podcasts and deep-dives on our website. Diarmaid MacCulloch will be available after his talk so do add your Cromwell questions in the comments. Thanks!

[@karenhubbard4348]

@@TheBritishAcademy 10 mins works for me because I can listen in my lunchbreak. Looking forward to the talk :-)

[@paulineantrobus4499]

@@TheBritishAcademy The buffering has been really distracting which is such a shame. I'll watch again later

[@s.alvanides9954]

@@TheBritishAcademy Excellent, but Prof. MacCulloch "is gone", so not sure how the Q&A works now?

[@TheBritishAcademy]

Hi @@s.alvanides9954 we'll be doing the Q&A through these comments, just drop your question to Diarmaid in the comment section and we'll answer here!

[@terryfoster842]

How can you save letters that you have sent?

[@BalBaaBart]

I found Sir Diarmaid's answer in his Cambridge Union lecture: the clerk would keep the last draft of the sent letter as an archive

[@Birdylockso]

I just want to know why there were so many Thomas's?

[@m0xiemarlinspike]

Was it usual for people to keep copies of letters they sent?

[@hurdygurdyman2852]

Silly question 🙄 How does one burn sent letters ? Surely you don't have them unless you duplicate them??? Great clip by the way 👌

[@BalBaaBart]

Question: how can his household burn his sent letters if they were uh.. sent. Wouldn't his received letters at his place? Great video b.t.w.

[@BalBaaBart]

I found Sir Diarmaid's answer to my question in his Cambridge Union lecture: the clerk would keep the last draft of the sent letter as an archive. Still I would expect that the actual sent letter might be found in the archives of the receiver

[@AbiShafi]

If I heard right I think you referred to Thomas Howard (Uncle Norfolk) as the 4th duke!! Gulp I don’t think I’ve ever read/heard you err!

[@manpreetluthra1699]

I'm obsessed by Oliver Cromwell 😂

[@sparkswain2820]

This is Thomas Cromwell.

[@leahmelton5776]

He is my 13thgreat grandfather

[@mtb5778]

I had to play this at 2x speed because he talked so slowly.

[@DanSmith-j8y]

1:11 Hilary Mantel doesn't give us the real Thomas Cromwell at all.

[@th42]

🤔 almost like it’s historical fiction.

[@DanSmith-j8y]

@@th42 So anything goes? I'm not sure what the point is if there's no resemblance to the real guy.

[@patcampton7163]

I disagree. Why do you think that, though?

[@DanSmith-j8y]

@@patcampton7163 Based on what historians have written about him. She needs him to be somewhat sympathetic, but in reality he wasn't, and she _vastly_ overstates his abilities to make it look like he's almost the one running things and if he could dispense with the king he could really get things done. On top of that, she character assassinates Thomas More and makes him into what Thomas Cromwell really was. Isn't that enough?

[@shirleylane131]

Looks like we’ve been stood up!😂

[@heliotropezzz333]

Don't you mean Thomas Howard 3rd Duke of Norfolk rather than 4th Duke of Norfolk? The 4th Duke was only born in 1536 or 1538..

[@helveticaification]

'Burning the Sent Mail'???? Did Cromwell invariably take copies of his own missives?

[@paulawakefield7869]

👌🙏👏👏👏

[@luciaadams6384]

I met Geoffrey Elton in Cambridge and over dinner found him to be pulsating with fury at the Royals especially Phillip. An angry maladjusted resentful historian who felt being Jewish was a handicap. Rather sad.

[@shirleylane131]

Is there a problem?

[@tintinmilou9471]

the FICTIONAL series "the tudors" brought me here, the more i research the real history the more im puzzeled to why the producers of the series could not just stick to the history. Verry interresting ten minutes !

[@annastinehammersdottir1290]

I hated the fantasy tudors but that production company went on to master the reality/mythical Vikings.

[@LaurynG411]

Just enough to wet one's appetite

[@bradfordtownley9363]

I had thought it was Lincoln who said to photograph him "warts and all"?

[@Adam-dn5ku]

How significant do you think was the failure of the marriage of Anne of Cleves to Henry VIII in bringing about Cromwell's downfall?

[@vincent-r5i]

Keir Starmer

[@bobbunting2318]

Possibly not DMcC's main focus, but does he think there's any evidence that intelligent women found him as interesting and attractive as H Mantel suggests?

[@bobbunting2318]

Actually I've just noticed that DMcC does refer to this, in this excellent video interview: kzbin.info/www/bejne/h5O3l3qji9SskLs

[@JamesBrown-mt5ru]

@0.15 'The Uk's national body ...' The UK is not a nation any more than the EU is a nation.

[@bretbarnett6024]

J's Flood England. In the year 1643, a large group of Jays came to England. They met with the Portuguese Ambassador in London, Antonio de Souza (a Marano, converted Jew) where further moves were discussed. All their actions were co-coordinated by Carvajal - From Juri Lina’s book:Architects of Deception. - Cromwell: Having deposed and executed Charles I in 1649, and naming himself as dictator in 1653, Oliver Cromwell became bloodthirsty and hostile to cultural development, letting the money changers strengthen their financial power. Under the puritanical rule of the Lord Protector Cromwell, music and other cultural activities were practically banned. Even colorful garments were forbidden. Only after Cromwell’s demise was the genial composer Henry Purcell able to perform publicly. It was Cromwell who in 1656 after he negotiated with Menasseh ben Israel once again let the Jays settle in England- From Juri Lina’s Architects of Deception. The Orange Order Overthrows James II In November 1688 (under the sign of Scorpio) the catholic king of England James II (Stuart) was overthrown through a well-organized invasion financed by the money Jews of Amsterdam and led by the Prieure de Sion and the Orange Order. The king was exiled to France and in February of 1689 William of Orange, the Prince of Nassau, was put upon the English throne by means of a coup d’etat, which became known as the Glorious Revolution. Even official historians admit that the people did not participate in this coup. Book reference: Architects of Deception by Yuri Lina. -

[@shirleylane131]

You’re late!

[@peterberesford-l3s]

pity you don't try and make sense of the man through his actions rather than trivia like his coat of arms, portrait etc

[@douglasmcbride5572]

More than two minutes of fluff about himself