🎲 Dice Control Deep Dive - #8 - Slow Motion Chopper

[@ProCraps]

This is from about 6 months ago or so. Did it on the CGTV channel but I feel like it belongs here as part of the series so it’s easier to find.

[@hoppinhoudini]

Hey John,I've been practicing the Chopper for a while now and my shot is more from the top& not low like Cashier Cage.I can get them to spin & stop pretty good.I have better success when using or imparting more spin/ energy/ speed while tossing the dice landing just short or just beyond the passline causing the dice to spin more and land flat ! Do you have any videos that show the dice & your toss coming from your hand? Thanks😊brother

[@ProCraps]

There are a few coming. I have a 3rd camera angle that I'm adding to my new practice videos. Once the weather gets normal I will start getting out to the garage table and filming more frequently.

[@David-vh7us]

Love this video! I’m looking to add a slow motion set up to my Craps Table so I can review my toss. Any Equipment recommendations would be greatly appreciated.

[@ProCraps]

I literally used my iPad for this (2019 version) up on a stack of boxes and aimed at the end of the table. Going to re-film new slow-mo with my newer iPhone which can do 240fs so hopefully that'll be better.

[@diceshark8232]

nice slow-motion video. It shows how random the dice become.

[@h80k]

Just my 2 cents. I recently (few months ago) set for the 7 every shot. I'm a pass line player, shooting always from SL1 or SL2 table position - 2 finger grip. Let me just say... I wish I set like this YEARS ago! Screw the hardway and the flying v's, Golden Touch sets. My goal is to have the dice look pretty in the air, lightly hit the same landing spot, kiss the back wall and then I RELY on the pyramids to re-conform the 7 into box numbers. I know it's crazy right? I have more longer rolls and win more often like this. I also hit hardways more often, in fact, it's easier for me to hit a hardway setting for the 7 than it is to set for the hardways and have to roll "perfectly" to hit them. In the end, influence or not, winning is all about good money management and not being greedy. I urge you all to try setting 7's in your tosses. Play around tweaking it. Don't be afraid of the 7 anymore. Embrace the look of that dice set, and then kill it at the wall. Who knows, you may be pleasantly surprised. Great content!

[@estu548]

Do You set any 7s, or some 7 sets in particular?

[@h80k]

@@estu548I used to set for all 7s set, but now I set to where I show just one comination, notably 4(top)2(facing) and 6(top)5(facing). My goal is to never hit a 2/5 seven roll. It's very rare when I hit that. Seems like 90% of the time I always 7-out with a 6/1, followed by a 4/3, so in my mind I feel like I have an edge by nearly eliminating 2 of the 6 ways to hit the 7. This is with a focused, consistent throw. I always face that 2/5 towards the pit boss while setting too, seems to reduce heat a bit because what dice setter sets for a 7 after establishing a point? lol Good luck at the tables!

[@markthepoint]

Nice John! I can tell it takes a lot of practice.. I tried a few times and couldn't get my grip without them moving or splitting.

[@ProCraps]

It’s a lifestyle choice, ultimately

[@garrison7888]

John good explanation--- I understand your concept and technique what about putting the two threes versus the two ones or the two 4's. When you stay on axis your numbers will be 4,5,6,(7)8, & 9. with the two three's and 5,6 (7) 8,9,&10 with the two fours. Cover all your point numbers. With the one on top your numbers will be 2,3,4,5,6,&(7). Good for the ATS. Field is 50/50. Speak to you soon. G.

[@ProCraps]

For sure. That's the long term plan. I like stacking 1's when I practice because the results are easy to interpret and they look pretty in the air ;)

[@garrison7888]

@@ProCraps Got it, I may have jumped in too far ahead, but you know that's the way I think. What you are you doing is the same thing when using the 6& 1 as your inside axis numbers and staying on axis for the parr toss. I get it. I may try to experiment with the Whip toss, just to see what happens. Best of luck with that toss. G.

[@victordelmastro8264]

John, remember the time we trotted out the Chi^2 test for 15 rolls, and how you need a 14,13,3 top face total for the 1/6, 2/5, 3/4 axes? P=0.05 or less. ;)

[@jodyserecky9940]

Love the video, having a hard time trying to find the video where you show how to make this throw. Do you have a link?

[@ProCraps]

I don't really do any throwing mechanics videos on this, just the theoretical ones. I'm only about 2 years into throwing it, so I'm by no means an expert on it. I'll leave to the elder class ;)

[@tooraw718]

One of my favorite break downs. Hope you do more like this. Also wondering where I can get the black dice and the white dice. Can't find anywhere. Thanks for all you do👊

[@ProCraps]

I made those with tape. I’m going to do some spray paint on a new set to make them feel more normal.

[@Coach_G_high_desert_CA]

From what i saw on your toss, the landing zone were all over the place. Second, keep you dice together as much as you can, all dice were many inches apart. Third, your toss were all random, only one toss "looked" controled. 😢 Work on your hand release 1st, if you can't launch the dice correctly at the start its just another random toss. I can consistently toss 12-18 rolls with my highest 64. In 2022 at my club i rolls 23 toss for second place. Your hands placement and release is the key. Only adjustment needed is at the tables conditions 🎉. I hope this helps 😅

[@ProCraps]

A big part of the issue with this video in specific is that I had cameras and lights and stuff everywhere, so I was totally out of my normal rhythm and felt pretty cramped. Also, with the white dice, I was trying to land way short (in the field) for a more trickle-in action, and with the blacks, I was more high energy and closer to the wall/hook on the landing. That was planned.

[@sargeviguy9464]

Hey John that some interesting stuff. 👍🏾👍🏾

[@ProCraps]

It sure is cool to see them do what they are supposed to a few times right?

[@cowboyvalley]

Seems to me from watching the slow-mo shots that it would be much better to try and land them much closer to the wall than you are doing. They are tumbling as much if not more after hitting the table the first time than from coming off the wall.

[@ProCraps]

Agree in theory. This shot has a few variations that you have use different landing spots for. The whites I was landing in the field, the blacks I was aiming into the hook and the Don't Pass line so I could force different action.

[@d3ath1ygaming55]

i feel like this is more random than par shooting? I understand you have only been working this toss for 18 months. Good information and presentation!

[@ProCraps]

It's actually far more reliable when you compare this to a Parr shot. Remember, probably like 90% of shots are shit. Nobody is perfect. But what do the perfect ones look like and how do they react? That's why I choose the horizontal spin. When it's good, it's perfect.

[@darrellq6954]

Does it now make craps ev positive?😊

[@ProCraps]

Maybe if someone could reliably and consistently hold back the 7 to 5/36 and target actual numbers. But in all honesty, the dream here is to find a pocket more often than not and dodge the bullet. I think a lot of DI proponents outbet their skills. And the casinos love them for it

[@fnjr101]

What camera are you using?

[@ProCraps]

That was my phone. I need to upgrade!

[@fnjr101]

@@ProCraps maybe try more light, might have less grain and less blur? Not an expert, just really interested in getting good slowmo dice videos!

[@ProCraps]

@FrankNicholsJr the blur is the result of me zooming in too much and distorting it.

[@waylonswaycraps]

The (only) hope we have as a di is to keep the dice from rolling around and tumbling as much as possible! The more they roll and tumble around the greater the chance for the 6 combinations of the 7 to show up! So if you can toss them and make them die asap you got a slight chance! All that being said the 7 is king and you cant stop it from coming so have some money on it 😂😂😂

[@ProCraps]

Energy energy energy!

[@JayAr709]

-as if any club spreading bank crap games is going to permit this 😏

[@ProCraps]

@@JayAr709 totally legal. They fly. They bounce. They hit the wall. It’s all good.

[@JayAr709]

@@ProCrapsMy comment referred to “toss them and make them die asap”-I have witnessed firsthand watchful boxmen snarl “no roll” as shooters attempt this. House rules insist the dice be rolled. If they do not roll, they need not “count.” ( You may get away with non rolls, but you should expect varying gradations of hostility if you are cautioned, warned-and you persist.

[@peterhook2258]

You need anonymous, strategic, encoded and united. That is what you need lol. Peace.

[@cashierscage]

Happy New Years, John. As you very well know, Slow Motion videos of Dice Tosses tells Practiced Shooters that it’s a fool’s errand. I’ve always stated that the secret to success is “ Correct application of energy”! It’s the ONLY thing that makes sense when looking at Slow Motion train Wrecks of dice flipping, flopping, yawing, etc. The dice go through many gyrations before coming to a complete halt. What’s truly hilarious to me is the “ On Axis “ myth.😂 You start the ( back & forward spin)toss on the X axis, & read the results of the toss off of the Y axis. Then, you toss a book of 720, 1440 tosses, put the results into Bonetracker, hit the transposition tab, &….. WALA, HOCUS POCUS… it gives you the best dice set ti use ! 🤣💵😝 John, you’re smart enough ti understand/realize that most tosses are RANDOM, regardless of “ SAID” Shooter’s skill level. A Practiced Shooter’s ONLY hope is ti apply the Correct amount of ENERGY to the toss, minimize bounce off of the backwall with the POSSIBILITY of influencing a FEW rolls of the dice . Everything else is pure… BULLS**T! John, send me your Email address again, & I have something to show you! 🎲🎲Married!

[@ktnotter]

If you have a 10% diversion from random you have beat the game. Good luck with that.

[@ProCraps]

10% is enormous. I’m not there yet. But I have a target and a way to track progress

[@shannonrusselldds2974]

It would be great to make a machine to standard the outcome… it seems to me that the outcome is best controlled with maximum angular speed/momentum of dice rotation, with flat/low entry and minimal energy into the wall… this should keep the top number up in most all circumstances. Something to test against different energies in a consistent way could be used to confirm this… then it’s a matter of perfecting the technique. Gyroscopes are an example of how angular speed/momentum hold an upright position. Or the physics of rock skipping, frisbee, etc.

[@CasinoGamingTV]

They tied to build a machine once, but it was very inconsistent. The thing with DI is that it can potentially work in a couple of scenarios: 1. A throw is ultra consistent in terms of spin rate, velocity, launch angle, landing zone, etc ... but there's 1 variable that's getting in your way. Maybe it's the table surface or the hardness of the rubber, whatever. In this case a change of dice set could help you out as that's one variable that you can really control. A machine could be setup to mimic this and do everything precicely the same and we could document landing spot, flat landing etc. And then change dice sets and see if the results move along a plane with them. That would be an amazing thing to setup properly. 2. Your throw is not consistent at all. Too high, too low, too fast, too short, or whatever. A human can adjust everything in their mechanics to account for what's happening. Maybe you went to the gym today and now your deltoids are worn out or something, so you change this or that to account for it. Robots can't really make those micro adjustments, and that's where the mechanical trials go south, because conditions, even in very controlled environments are never exactly the same.

[@shannonrusselldds2974]

@@CasinoGamingTV thanks, I agree, if a consistent machine could be made, then all the variables could be tested to see what provides the ideal outcomes… then training mechanics could strive to mimic.

[@mudslidemac9613]

Dude the proof is in the casino. Esther you can make it work or you can’t in the real world. Just saying

[@ProCraps]

I’m getting better and better and more and more reliable. That slow mo is about a year old now. I really need to do some new clips

[@diceemotion5412]

Great highlights for DI. Create some pockets of numbers - if the dice are nice

[@ProCraps]

It’s all about seeing what’s possible at this point.

[@diceemotion5412]

@@ProCraps I assume this is the “old chopper” and not the latest grip you’re working on.

[@ProCraps]

That is correct. Follow-up coming soon.

[@drdontpassone8164]

so ,i guess, your calling the roll at 12 30 a '''good shot ''..........................you hopped the 9 ie 6 3 i guess........................................nice

[@ProCraps]

I would never ever ever ever say to hop anything like you’re trying to snipe it. That’s lunacy. But I do like the fact that the physics can potentially work like I say it would. 1:40 good ones doesn’t an advantage make, but I feel good about it!

[@drdontpassone8164]

i'm confused ,on the roll in question, I assume your trying for a 63 right.............forgetting any discussion of ''physics''' thanks@@ProCraps

[@ProCraps]

@@drdontpassone8164 no not at all. Trying to “pin” a 6 or a 1 on either of the die. Thats literally the only measure of success I have at this stage. I’m not even looking at resulting numbers at all

[@drdontpassone8164]

john your confusing me ie if the goal on the roll in question was a 6 1 for a 7 and it resulted in a 6 3 for a 9................why was it featured as a '' good''' throw on the video.. lets get to thepoint here.....i'm watching the football game.......thanks ddp1@@ProCraps

[@ProCraps]

@@drdontpassone8164 Ignore the numbers. Imagine if the top and bottom were pained white and the sides black. All I want to know is how often I can make a white show up. In these sessions I’m making the “white” be 6 and 1 on the dice. So I don’t care if I get a 7 or a 9. I care if 6’s and 1’s are involved. If we can make that happen more often than it should … THEN you could set the dice to account for it and get better numbers Right now, I’m just trying to putt it straight

[@efsu8374]

Bro... your toss looks like a straight randy. If anything, the slow motion showed how bad chopper toss is. You need better slow motion footage to that shows any consistency at all. I was hoping to see the top die and a side staying consistant througout the shot and staying in a unison axis with the second die. Shoot it at 120p at F5.6 with 1/500 shutter speed with lots of light. adjust iso accordingly. Let the slow motion tell the truth about your toss! Good Luck!

[@ProCraps]

Terrible camera angle and quality. But, out of about 30 shots or so, we had a solid few of them doing exactly what they should which is to stay spinning sideways after wall contact. I’m happy with that. I’ve yet to see a slow motion of the PARR shot where he dice stay on axis through even the first point of contact. Every throw is random. Remember that. It’s just the degrees to which we can control certain parts of that. If I can keep 1 die behaving, I’m stoked.

[@efsu8374]

​@@ProCraps if the Ratio of the good toss is better than the average SRR, then great... but you can't count the good results if the dice roll looks like a train wreak action and got lucky.

[@CasinoGamingTV]

@@efsu8374 100% true. But at this stage of my training with all of this, I don't even care about the results. What I do is look at my slow motion like this weekly and I'm seeing how often I can reliably pin top or bottom die on that horizontal axis. The set doesn't matter at all right now, it's only if I can get the action i want. Later, we can deduce what set or results can be. But, if i can't get top and/or bottom to be reliably on that spinning axis throughout the tosses more than 20% of the time, then the gain probably isn't going to be tangible enough. I think of the throw types, the physics on this one are potentially the best. I've had some physics students and professors look at these throws, and this gyro action is the only one that even has a remote chance. Again, look at every PARR shooter's throw in slow motion and its the same train wreck I showed here. Trouble is, only a handful of them will let you see that this is the case. Ed is one of them. He and I reviewed his slow motion on a fireside craps show a while back. Not many others will be as transparent about it as he was.

[@CasinoGamingTV]

It's the throw at about 26 minutes in that really shows the horizontal effect very well.

[@Archaides]

First!