Did CA RUIN the CHECKERBOARD Formation?! | Total War: Warhammer 3

[@MalleusGaming57]

What other problems/weaknesses have you guys noticed with either the Checkerboard or other such formations? What have you done to cover for those weaknesses? I'd love to cover some more formations so let me know!

[@Malisman77]

When you made the individual unit formations wider, you made critical error, you adjusted also the "depth" of your formations. Essentially, you have put your gunners much closer to the first point of contact of halbediers. AI units then see that they have gunners at much closer range when they are flowing around the frontline. That is why they get through. As always, it is a skill issue, no improvement in AI on CA part.

[@elmertsai1312]

There's a trick to just issue your frontline to attack the units that look like that are trying to move through and it'll "glue" them back to your frontline

[@MalleusGaming57]

That's a great tip thank you bro! So easy enough to prevent the stragglers from pushing through then. Cheers bud!

[@Nisenziart]

this doesnt always work as even in sieges attacking Ai would just run through any unit on walls and even on points and rush to the victory point, literaly slipping through the units no matter what

[@AndreaFasani]

Yeah it helps but not always. It's quite annoying cos sometimes is just a couple of entities that block an entire unit from shooting or moving back.

[@stikfigz]

What seems to be happening is that the second wave of enemy units is making it through. The first wave makes contact with your front line, and once the second wave makes it in, they dont make contact with your halberds since theres already orks in the way. If the enemy came in a single wave, I think you wouldn't see units coming through the gaps.

[@MalleusGaming57]

Yeah that's spot on, the first wave gets stuck in and the second wave is more readily able to choose its targets. Against an army with many more units than your own that would definitely cause some issues

[@Waffle131]

The Double Echelon Formation is still the BEST THANKS! I use this or just a triangle formation a lot of the time

[@MalleusGaming57]

Thanks bro! Yeah that's a really fun one I should re-visit it at some point! Glad you've been enjoying the vids bud!

[@Larunes-r1g]

from time to time the ai would just use all their units and walk trough to the backline but this mostly happens with a huge desparity of nummbers or if also have snipers and artillery. It also seems to be inconsistend depending on the factions lizardman/v-counts seem to love to push trough buts norsca, chaoswarriors, greenskins seem to be more tame regarding this. There also seem to differences which units you are fielding skaven weaponteams with plagemonks for summons seem to do mostly fine but some specific units like longrifels and some artillery seem to have very high aggro

[@MalleusGaming57]

That's super interesting and good to keep in mind! Seems like they place a high priority on snipers and artillery, enough to try and force their units through to get them. I'd also imagine unit mass would also play a part, I've definitely had encounters (particularly in sieges) where the enemy units slowly try to push through when I'm holding at the gates.

[@thynellynator]

Its almost like the ai needs that Rome 2 spam order push mechanic to make them more dynamic, great to see the changes displayed!

[@MalleusGaming57]

There was a push mechanic in Rome 2? I haven't played a whole lot of it so I never realized that was a thing how did it work?

[@jakubkryca5230]

He probably mean Pharaoh

[@jimbothefuzzy]

@@MalleusGaming57 If I remember correctly, any unit engaged in melee was essentially spam right-clicking on whatever unit it was fighting. There are some tests on KZbin. IIRC in some cases the AI was issuing attack orders to every single one of its melee infantry that was engaged every single frame. Which was DEFINITELY something humans can't do. And it would lead to some weird behavior at times.

[@emanuelalfred1565]

@@jimbothefuzzyIsn't this mainly with pike units, or does it apply to other units in Rome 2 as well?

[@jimbothefuzzy]

@@emanuelalfred1565 I remember the test being done with basic Roman infantry. One of the ways it was initially detected was that the player's units wouldn't throw their javelins once engaged, but the back lines of the AI units would. But the only time your units would throw their javelins was if you were right-clicking on a unit to start triggering the charge. I seem to remember CA issuing a patch related to it, but that was quite a while ago. I think it was before the Vampire Coast was released for TWW2. But that's the closest I can give you as an estimate. I haven't touched Rome 2. Mostly because they made it with the Warscape engine. Which was really designed for games like Empire and Napoleon. Warhammer does okay with it, even if it has problems.

[@AlamarianJ]

I have experienced an issue but not specifically with checkerboard formations. It seems that units already "engaged" have a hard time stopping other units from going around them. I've had choke-point battles where I had two or three units blocking the choke-point and enemies flowed around them like water, engaging my archers.

[@MalleusGaming57]

Yeah I've had those issues as well, trying to block them at choke point battles as well as in sieges trying to hold them at the gates. Usually I tend to panic charge my Cavalry in to try and push them back haha

[@AshenVictor]

Square blocks are generally the best deployment for infantry units. For ranged it minimises the amount of distance models have to move to reorient the unit to a new target. Especially in a game where giving an actual attack command to ranged units is suicide if an enemy is even nearby them. For melee it gives them enough depth to give you those wraparound enemies who your ranged are now shooting in the flank.

[@MalleusGaming57]

Yeah I absolutely love how a compact square block and turn so much faster than a spread out block. It does leave the units vulnerable to AoE attacks, but I frequently just use squares in my typical battles regardless

[@brianjohnson1570]

Thank you for the testing. Leaving a comment to help the channel.

[@MalleusGaming57]

Cheers bro, thanks for the support!

[@03adrian88]

Put a infantry unit behind the gun line and use it to plug any overflow.

[@MalleusGaming57]

Reserves are always a fantastic idea, great method to counter an enemy break through. Bonus points if they're a Hybrid Archer/Melee unit so they can still participate at range

[@03adrian88]

@MalleusGaming57 it might be a good idea to do a reserve unit tier list?

[@MalleusGaming57]

@@03adrian88 that is a really really interesting idea! I’ll look into that thank you!

[@user-ib2sv5cz2g]

This has been in game for at least two major patches so far. It’s called the ai being less moronic and is a good thing. Although someone else already said it, but just having the front ranks attack any pressing units will generally curb this. You will get a flank disadvantage on your front rank though.

[@bezyn2291]

Meanwhile V-Chevron formation worked and still works. Disgustingly common Vchevron W.

[@Remanada1]

Something I really liked about your experiments with the triple tercio etc as opposed to checkerboard, is it lets you take control of much more of the battlefield. Checkerboard is very condensed

[@LukasJampen]

I noticed that my lords and other small units have a harder time to keep enemy units engaged in melee as they waltz straight through. In an ambush battle I used my lords and heroes to block units from reaching the extraction zone while my ranged hammered them but some units just walked through my heroes if I wanted to stop them I needed to summon clan rats to actually make them engage. Maybe it's just some changes to the AI disengaging more and the last time I played was a few months ago but at least it felt different to previous playthroughs I had.

[@dirt3251]

Some unfortunately do push through, like cavalry for example, they don't charge your front, but just walk agianst it and go through it to hit your ranged units. Also sometimes from infantry units, the entire unit might be stopped by one of yours, but out of for example 160 goblins, 13 of them don't attack the unit that stopped them and walk through to harass your archers. It's like they detach from their main unit to create another one.

[@neerGdyahS]

If you ignore Total War logic, it's a bit strange to say "I left gaps in my frontline and the enemy walked through and attacked my ranged units."

[@rogofos]

I just move my ranged units inward a little bit more part of the enemy unit will still get caught by the front and the enemy unit can't stretch forever so they will have to turn around and engage the frontline they turn their backs on the ranged units as a bonus

[@MalleusGaming57]

Do you mean you angle them a bit facing the gaps? Or you sit them a bit closer to the front line?

[@strangestecho5088]

@@MalleusGaming57 He means that he places the gun line farther back so that units that get partially stuck on the frontline can't wrap around into the guns, as was the case at 5:25 in this video.

[@Rich50v]

I actually like this change, in a real battle (i'm aware this is fantasy) enemies would not just let your rear lines fire with impunity. Probably makes the likes of Skaven a bit more terrifying to fight, the sheer numbers means some are gonna get through to your back lines.

[@MalleusGaming57]

Yeah it makes you have to think a little bit more with your spacing. To be fair though, I absolutely hate facing Skaven at all haha

[@Thanan548]

Do you think you could do an “improving your gunpowder formation” series? I have a few formations that I like to use but idk how to optimize them

[@MalleusGaming57]

That sounds like a great idea! If you wanna talk more about that feel free to join my discord, the link for it is in the video description

[@chaotix7275]

I just started a Zhatan campaign like a week ago, havent played Chorfs in 5 months or so, and i was getting frustrated by the hard on AI has on my blunderbusses and Fireglaives. I couldnt remember if it was always like this, but it seems like a new thing. It definitely didnt happen when Chorfs launched. The only thing that worked for me was putting my guns far behind my frontline in checkerboard formation. But given how short-ranged blunderbusses are, its maybe time for trying new formations.

[@shorewall]

I have started using a 1 to 1 ratio of melee to ranged. I stretch out the ranged to the fullest, and then put the melee in squares 2 at a time, in between two ranged units. I put the ranged in front of the formation. Usually, they can get off two volleys before the enemy melee gets too close. Then i have the melee move forward one formation length, and away from its paired melee unit one formation width. This will always catch anything coming from the front. At the same time, i retreat the ranged into echelon formations so they can keep shooting. Just need to guard the flanks at that point.

[@MalleusGaming57]

That sounds like a good method, do you find its more micro intensive or is it easy enough to handle in the middle of a fight?

[@thegoingawayparty5067]

at 5:51 i felt they weren't really hitting the gunners they looked more confused in either going back for the boys or just duke it out there

[@samueldisturbing761]

Another effect of wider defensive infantry, is that they have more space to be attacked in and die quicker. On top of thatthe ranged cant shoot at the attackers as well

[@MalleusGaming57]

Absolutely, a smaller frontage means they survive longer in melee, perfect for a checkerboard or other defensive formation

[@ridvirgo1994]

Always went with hammer and hammer tactic. For The Lady!

[@DemocracyOfficer289]

love your content 👍 keep it up

[@MalleusGaming57]

Thanks so much bro! I appreciate it :) Cheers!

[@musaxhogas]

if you are using checkerboard like this, youre doing it wrong and you deserve melee troops hitting you ranged units. ranged units should be at least 1 full square formation further back from where they are now. in terms of range, when enemies hit your frontline they should be at around 50% of your ranged units range, not 33% or closer.

[@shorewall]

Yeah, the ai has a proximity sensor, where they target those within a certain range. If you keep certain units back, while giving them another target to focus on, they will stop and fight.

[@MalleusGaming57]

Oh yeah definitely best case to space your ranged further back, the examples here were demonstrative and really just to see what would happen

[@lordfreezer9550]

I'm pretty sure the ai does a locked control group and a line charge, you can clearly see they orc units where the attack order is on the handgunners, if there are other enemy units already engaged they won't stop charging when they touch their back and push through, if there are no enemy units engaged with the frontline they will stop when they touch it. Either don't put the handgunners so close to the frontline to avoid the ai issuing attack orders to them in the initial charge in the first place or close the gap more

[@MalleusGaming57]

Yeah it seems like they try to focus on a unit as their charge target, you're right that simply keeping your ranged back a bit more would solve any of those issues. Overall I feel like there hasn't been any significant enough changes in the AI that would render this useless, and any problems seem to have been more to user error in its layout. Cheers bud thanks!

[@vladpavlov4941]

Something tells me this is connected to them making chariots NOT getting stuck in the infantry.

[@MalleusGaming57]

Hm that's interesting, quite possibly? Making units less sticky or whatever. I very rarely actually use Chariots so I never really noticed that change haha

[@MrEddieLomax]

I did not realize just how accurate the handgunners are, in a real life example the first ones would have both failed to hit much at range, but also shot a lot of the blocking force in the back because the gap was too narrow. It seems bugged as @4:00 minutes the handgunners on the left are shooting the routing orcs directly through the backs of the halberds, these sort of bugs need fixing as if fixed they add difficulty rather then just giving the AI cheats. It also gives space in the tactics for extra unit abilites - e.g. some elite elves could do 'Legolas shooting' through units. Right now this seems to be standard...

[@MalleusGaming57]

Ohhh that Elven Precision Shooting would be such a baller special ability! I'm all for that, make things less accurate, leaving room for abilities like that! Reminds me of the start of Fellowship of the Ring when the Last Alliance Elves are firing at the charging orcs

[@MrEddieLomax]

@@MalleusGaming57 The beginning scene of the lord of the rings was awesome, it told us these guys were trained to an inhuman level. It always pains me then to watch a unit of orcs shoot as well as basic high elves. Giving them a special ability like shoot through could make a clear difference.

[@SMT-ks8yp]

@@MrEddieLomax wood elves can shoot through trees already, by the way. Also aiming algorythms need a change too, to avoid situations when someone like sisters of Avelorn or shadow warriors require seeing the center of the unit's formation to start shooting it, and then they will all aim at that one ork on the flank and waste a ton of ammo.

[@gsauwce5488]

Thanks for showcasing! Looks like I have a bad habit of flattening out my ranks too much

[@MalleusGaming57]

No problem at all bud thank you for watching! It was really interesting to see what the cut off widths would be, to be honest I never put a whole lot of thought into them before but it's nice to know how it affects things overall

[@dantenarede]

Maybe try with the gunnery units at the front and then pull them back as the enemy approaches?? Maybe the AI will target them first and more orc units will try to pass through the gaps.

[@MalleusGaming57]

That might happen, I'm not sure since I pretty much never deploy my ranged up front haha I wonder if the enemy charge would target them, then they'd get intercepted by the melee troops and it'd be some sorta disordered charge or something (assuming the ranged units pull back behind the lines)

[@killersauresrex]

Wonder how Ultra army unit size would change things

[@asdflol2222]

How do you spread out the units so perfect?

[@caleboates7809]

Drag your units into a line and while they remain selected hold control and use an arrow key to modify the width and length of the formation.

[@MalleusGaming57]

You can check out this video here for an in depth look at the Checkerboard and how to set it up: kzbin.info/www/bejne/iKGUipZvf95notksi=VfHlVSNF6oG9Qdkg

[@Lfc04]

Keeping your ranged troops so close to your front line makes no sense. The frontlien should be squared so ramged units can pick off the sides. If AI didn't charge the ranged units 20 feet away this game wouldnt ever present a challenge.

[@asdfasers]

Did you test shevron formation?

[@MalleusGaming57]

Not like this no, have you had any issues with it? That could definitely be something I can look into

[@asdfasers]

@@MalleusGaming57 didn't play with gunner factions yet, i was just interested if you have used it and if it has same problems :)

[@jasonthompson3767]

So people are complaining that the AI is not just blobbing up on their infantry and letting them shoot them to death? That is a thing?

[@MalleusGaming57]

Bro people will complain about any and everything haha

[@rudolfrudi5452]

literally pull back the ranged as soon as the frontlines colide , the ones that slip will turn around and repath to attack the frontline unit , the ones that slip do because of the initial "charge" that wont stop until they colide with a unit or until they reset. am patit asta si inainte , after they passed the original unit they attacked, they stopped, turned around and enveloped the frontline unit and my ranged was fine

[@MalleusGaming57]

Ah gotcha yeah pulling them back a bit further would break whatever connection the charging unit has with them since they'd already be stuck on a melee unit, good thinking! Really just maintaining the proper distance would solve most issues with this it seems

[@centurion7398]

The short answer is, y'all're doin it wrong.

[@Covidscorner]

Players: the AI is trash. CA: ok, lets tweak it a bit. Players: Q.Q the AI trys to run trough gaps in my lines to kill my DDs...and how dare it to try to flank with cav, use its magic and abilitys on valueble targets.... I bet if u spread em even further, theyll try to run around the melee even more 😮 Idk who crys bout stuff like this, but they should consider playing on easy or normal 😅

[@splattbinat1542]

I love the AI being trash

[@MrEddieLomax]

Its worse then that, @4:00 the handgunners on the left shoot through the backs of halberds at routing orcs :(

[@MalleusGaming57]

I definitely would prefer more realistic mechanics, I miss how Gunpowder worked back in Medieval 2 where only the front ranks could fire, it'd lead to having to use more interesting tactics to overcome those challenges and I think would be super rewarding when you do

[@EdoardoLusuardi]

Why do total war fanboys have to be so toxic, bruh

[@changer_of_ways_999]

If you really have issues, get some flagellents and throw them in the gap. 🤷

[@MalleusGaming57]

Haha Flagellants would be such a good stop gap! Keep them safe from enemy ranged behind your lines and then they do some good damage on the charge and keep the enemy unit pinned for soooo long!

[@angrypirate1094]

Wider frontage = more damage and fewer melee units covering the same ground. So instead of having 8 melee units and 2 characters you have 4 melee units and 2 characters, add another 4 (cross)bows to your checkerboard formation. Your elite melee damage dealers are kind of wasted in a narrow formation, why get Swordmasters instead of Spearmen if you're not going to spread wide enough for them to deal the most damage possible. Depending on the AI difficulty you will need more melee units and your artillery and spells will be less efficient.

[@kentknightofcaelin4537]

Yeah, the problem is that doesn't work with gun units.

[@MalleusGaming57]

I recall back in Medieval 2 that the Gunpowder units could only fire with the front rank. I kinda miss that mechanic as now the whole unit can shoot regardless of it's shape. Spreading them out like that was necessary to get the most use out of them and you really had to plan around them

[@kakaomilch5905]

But isnt that good ? The formation just works because the ai is dumb not because its good

[@marcog.verbruggen674]

Yeah, people keep complaining that the AI isn't good or the game is too easy, then when CA implements a fix for it they complain. I remember after thrones of decay came out they changed the Engineer hero's ability that grants extra range to handgunners to stop the cheap and easy doomstacks people were making and everyone got pissy about it, meanwhile I was sitting here like "do you guys play strategy games to use strategy, or to copy whatever exploit you saw on reddit that lets you win by AFKing?"

[@fedyx1544]

Absolutely. The AI should be improved to the point of making checkerboard completely unviable. It's a nonsense formation that has no place in a strategy pseudo-simulation.

[@MalleusGaming57]

Suppose it's just another way to cheese the AI, I know a certain Legend who's particularly infamous at doing just that

[@marcog.verbruggen674]

@MalleusGaming57 indeed lol. Cheesing is of course fun, but any steps taken to strengthen the ai against it are objectively good design, so its wild to see people complain about it (not saying you specifically are complaining, obviously the video is just testing and showcasing)

[@teosandev6116]

Waaaaaghhhhh!

[@clintwestwood1773]

CA ruined the steam tank

[@Lord0x]

Good

[@MalleusGaming57]

Oh nooo what'd they do to it now?

[@fedyx1544]

Did CA ruin the Checkerboard? Not really judging by the video. Better question, SHOULD CA ruin Checkerboard? Answer: absolutely, yes. It's an utterly nonsensical formation that literally only works because the AI is inept at their job. The game would be better if it didn't work.

[@MalleusGaming57]

Nooo not my poor Checkerboard! Haha I do see where you're coming from, more realistic mechanics would be so much more rewarding

[@strangestecho5088]

@@MalleusGaming57 Then they'd also have to make it so that ranged units can still consistently fire when some models are engaged in melee, as would also be realistic.

[@myonionsmatter7843]

lmao "the enemies just go through the gaps" yes... thats what happens. sounds like the AI improved but the players havent.