Did I just Make It Worse? Tweaking the Kona Honzo ESD to be a little more SSLSD - ExperiMENTAL

[@WrexBass]

You are seriously making some of the best bike content out there right now. Thanks for inspiring me to experiment more. For Science!

[@hardtailparty]

Thanks Evan. I love experiments like this. It's fun to challenge marketing claims and my paradigms. I used to believe more fork travel meant a hardtail was more capable, but I'm starting to question that now. We'll see what happens.

[@hardtailparty]

A quick note: My goal with this experiment wasn't to keep the geo identical. The best way to keep the geo identical with a shorter fork would be to run a 20mm spacer between the head tube and fork crown. Wolf tooth makes one of these, but I don't have one in hand. I'd like to experiment with one in a future video. Sadly, I have a limited time window with this bike, so I did what I could in the short time I had it. I was tinkering here to see if I'd like a little less stack and a steeper hta (64* now). I don't feel like 63* is always needed for most trails. I'm curious if 64* feels better on this bike or not. I plan to experiment with a headset spacer in future videos.

[@StarOx64]

It'll be rad either way, watching you experiment with this stuff just shows us the options we may not have known about otherwise! ❤

[@TacozHelmet]

And rock rolled almost everthing with 130mm rockshox recon rl hardtail fusecomp 29 66.5 HA np.

[@craigmeritz896]

I love this experiment. The whole underforking question intrigues me. Particularly how the bottom bracket is lowered and how that affects handling for different environments or trails.

[@hardtailparty]

The bb now sits 10mm lower. With 5mm shorter cranks, it's probably going to pedal stroke even more than before. But it's an experiment worth doing.

[@anotheryoutuber_]

the bigger change comes from the head tube angle change i use a Rock Shox Domain 302 U-Turn ,which lets me go from 115 to 160 mm of travel i can dial it for whatever trail preference i have that day in less than ten seconds. the lower bottom bracket definitely makes me more aware of my pedal location, i definitely prefer a higher bb as it gives me more leverage and more monster truck vibes, the lower bb lets me feel like im sitting more inside of my bike which can feel more stable at lower speed technical stuff ,so if im going faster i like it high, if slow low. its not an isolated variable on that bike but it holds mostly true for me across all my other hardtails. its always a trade off, that is why folks choose N+1, gives you more options and lighter more aero pockets, because racing.

[@fiatfixie4344]

Thats my issue. Pedal strikes on New England trails would rule this out for me. Modern bikes seem to come with too low a bb as is. Wouldn't bumping up the progression with volume spacers on the 150 fork accomplish a similar goal?

[@camerongreen4625]

This is exactly what I did to my Ragley mmmbop. Works great!

[@hardtailparty]

Do you get more pedal strikes with that low bb? How short is the fork you put on it? I think the marley looks super fun, like a 130mm mmmbop with a slightly shorter reach.

[@kcchai2522]

@@hardtailparty or 29er the front of mmmbop to raise the BB back up

[@breakandrun70]

Keep it up, I'm learning more and more with each video. Thank you, Be careful & stay safe.

[@stevencole7331]

I did an experiment the other day . My rear tire is on its last leg . I got new tires coming but needed a temporary fix . I had a non tubeless ardent tire that is a couple years old and I said why not . Lets see if it would go on tubeless and set it up . It did have some sealant leak from the rim and bead but sealed up after going higher pressure . I went for a 4 hour ride in my rocky high desert trails and it did not loose any air . I rode it fairly hard to see if the tire would hold and all good. Its a rear tire which takes some abuse on a hardtail . I also try non bike sealants(Mostly atv type sealants ) at a far lower price to see if they would work . I found one from walmart that works as well as any bike sealant at a third of the price and add a secret hole filler to the sealant that I came up with . Not sure if that makes a difference because I did not try without . Fun to experiment and you never know you may come up with a million dollar Idea Steve . I have also experimented with budget tires to see if they can perform with there higher dollar counterparts but some loose tread fast and others developed wobbles after riding them for a bit .Can you build a better mouse trap steve ? maybe

[@yohannpitrey4598]

If you took a 140mm fork and added spacers to it, would it be kind of equivalent to a 130mm fork, given that it couldn't use all of its travel? I'm wondering if this could be a low cost way to experiment with less travel.

[@Phlizz]

Great as ever! I second your experience with hardtail suspension. I have all tokens in my Fox 34 so I never actually use all travel.

[@blakemason2142]

Would love to see a video with you describing how you would design your ideal hardtail

[@hardtailparty]

Stay tuned... I have s few projects in the pipeline...

[@bigshan5806]

As usual great content. Your always looking for the next little adventure, greatness is failure overcome. Keep up the great work from downunder.

[@daviddauza]

Love the experimental upgrading ,,, stepping outside the conventional wisdom box to follow your own experience-based insights.

[@cameronlesley2428]

Hub sounds like an air raid siren! Howly cow , and the sustain

[@kikoy08]

Informative points! And thats a lot to us who prefers building bikes on our own..thanks!!! 👏👏👏👏👏👏👏🙏🙏🙏🙏🙏🙏🙏

[@danielcox9850]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe whiskey is a catalogue brand. Meaning they buy taiwan unbranded parts out of a catalogue and brand them with their name. That concerns me in the cockpit area. I have a stem of theirs, and as I was washing my bike I actually wash the labeling of the stem! Makes me concerned about the structure of the stem itself.

[@mellissanash7517]

I just got Teravail Kennebec 27.5x2.8 as front tire on my mtb and really like the durability in the part of the dessert I am in. I've heard good things about the ehline 2.3 & 2.6 Kessel(as a front tre) combo from a friend who runs it. You really have me interested in SS but I don't have enough trails for that.

[@rpiian]

Really love Horizon wheels. Sound great, work well on a budget. Especially during CRC sales... Enjoy the experiment!

[@brianhely3910]

I recently went for a 130 fork to a 150 on my hardtail (130 factory 34 to 150 pike rct3). In general I agree with you that this much travel on a hardtail is excessive, to me it balances the frame weight (my XL trans am super heavy) and also brings the bb up to a more desirable height... I just hit a drop this weekend that I've never hit before, but even things like this aside, the bike is just more balanced. But this is why experiments are important, there's too many variables for hard/fast rules... another difference from what I was doing to what you're doing is that the geo on the '16 trans am is different 74 STA and 67 HTA.... I have two long travel hardtails, the feeling of weight distribution is really fun to observe/ and yeah I think fork travel is more about geo in the normal riding than the big hits (but settings can also come into play)

[@jeffreydzialo]

Nice! I can hardly wait for the ride review!

[@adamrossi7010]

Such amazing content!! Can’t wait for the ride vid!!

[@BerserkerNick]

I just put a 160mm Rock Shox 35 Gold RL fork on my Trek Roscoe and now it rides absolutely amazing

[@douglashay174]

Dude like your videos,so I ve got a ESD frame on order and I am doing a custom build on it ,doing mine with a lyric or maybe a pike, totally agree on the whole too much travel thing on hardtails and it steepening the head angle on full travel so I am going to tune the fork so it really ramps up and the end of the travel making it almost impossible to use the last 20/30mm . Spec will probably be HOPE hubs,brakes,BB,headset ,stem. Shimano XT gears and XT 170mm cranks. DT RIMS and silver DB sapim spokes. 👊

[@benjaminland9573]

I've been saying forever, Experimenting is the only real way to learn! Otherwise, you're just following what other people tell you. Sometimes they're right, other times they may have no clue, and they are just following the people they heard it from. All of the marketing from the big names in the industry now-a-days is basically that in a nutshell. Not to mention how subjective bikes are to people. Everybody's different, and rides different stuff. I'm definitely staying tuned, I like science! (That Adam Savage quote comes to mind, "the difference between screwing around and science is writing it down")

[@s0ckeyeus429]

Interesting thoughts about hardtail fork travel. I don't have experience past 130mm, but I can't remember feeling like needing more. Feels about right to me.

[@Darkridgefilms]

Basically an oversized Dirt jumper now. I love it!

[@adanielweaver]

I have a XT hub. It sounded awful for a while, but now that it is worked in and the grease is spread evenly, it is silent.

[@mikecito1717]

I've been lusting after the ESD ever since I saw it, but this is making me wonder if the new ST will be the goldilocks geo to slog around in the Bellingham mud. Hope you get to mess around and compare both one of these days! At least there's nothing in stock to tempt my wallet anytime soon. Your channel is rad. Looking forward to the next episode!

[@pauldc779]

Great looking bike excited to see how it rides.

[@danieltomlinson9667]

Arrgh, cant wait for the ride review. I want to under fork and lighten a little. cant wait for the ride report. How might this compare to the new honzo st with the 66 degree head angle? My only concern is whether or not the seat tube might get too steep?

[@smithtechsea]

Looking forward to the ride review from the changes you made!!! Whoop!!!!

[@pseudomugilidae5897]

It's weird that they would use such small bolts for the dropouts chain tensioner on this bike. I have a 2015 Kona big unit (set up rigid ss with a 29+ on the front) and the dropouts on that bike use 4mm bolts for the tensioner.

[@drfishynoooo9960]

After watching this it'd be great to see you tinker with a Chromag Doctahawk.

[@hardtailparty]

Agreed. The 180mm fork on those seems insane. I doubt I'd love that bike in stock config, but I'd still like to try one. No luck getting my hands on one, chromag doesn't send bikes out for review unless you're the size of pinkbike.

[@professorbadjas4232]

Looking forward to the riding video. You should check out the frame specs off the BMC twostroke 01 The european manufactures are seeing the light and offering slacker bikes ( not including the speciality English offerings off course)

[@hardtailparty]

I'd love to try a two-stroke. I reached out to bmc but never heard from them.

[@jasonbonello5497]

Interested in your thoughts of the Honzo ESD VS the Ragley mmmbop

[@CrazyDiamond.critter]

I don't know why, but I can never stop the video until that wheel stops spinning... Looking forward to seeing the test ride.

[@PJSinohin]

I agree 130mm is kind of the sweet spot for aggressive HTs.

[@THEOPINIONATEDSPORTSMAN]

Interested in seeing how this turns out. The BB is already up to 3.5 cm lower than a lot of trail bikes out there. Lowering that BB with a shorter travel fork is gonna be REALLY low even with shorter cranks! Got any 165’s ?!?! 😂 Certainly don’t think your theory is a bad one.... just curious. Cannot wait to hear/see the result. 😃

[@MrRedPony01]

I ran my bigwig SS for a while and it wasn’t too bad. It took away from the riding experience I get with it though. I couldn’t ride up the super techy climbs to get to the top of the hills I enjoyed riding down. And it’s not twitchy enough for the flat twisty XC trails I ride SS.

[@josh28874]

How would you compare the Kona Honzo Steel (2012-13) to the Kona Explosif (2014-17)? Iam a sucker for Kona Bikes ever since i got back into cycling as a mote of commuting to work and your videos put the idea of a steel hardtail in my head for just having fun. Living in Germany getting hands on Kona Bikes is a bit of a hassle but from time to time there are some good deals on used bikes here. I just dont know of i should take up a Honzo or a Explosif for flowy trails i wanna ride. Cheers

[@StarOx64]

Something Slightly Less Slack Dude? Ohh Single Speed Less Slack Dude

[@shiopzz]

I wanted this bike but only one thing holds me back. Its limitation on riding plus tires. I saw your 1st review testing a 3.0 with tight clearance at the back. I'm hoping you put on 27.5x2.8's on it and see how it rides on plus and if it still rocks...then i'm sold! 🍻

[@hardtailparty]

The already low bb will be even lower with plus tires. I don't think this is the bike to get if you want to run plus tires.

[@austinharnish7807]

How are you liking the nuke proof wheel set?

[@hardtailparty]

I like em. Review coming soon

[@Jnoprdctn]

How about adding headset extender, that way you dont change your geometry. Nice content keep it up! 👍

[@hardtailparty]

See my pinned comment at the top. I actually wanted to change the geo a little bit.

[@epagent6091]

Can't wait to see how it rides Steve....

[@Max-xl3ml]

A bonus to steepening the headtube with a shorter fork is that you end up gaining a little bit of reach.

[@outsider1733]

Great video! Do you lose any "plushness" when you reduce travel by 10 or 20mm? Even though some people might not use that much travel, I'm just wondering if there is any benefit regarding ride feel. Maybe not though. Thanks!

[@hardtailparty]

It ramps up sooner. It might be slightly less plush.

[@andyeunson270]

That seat tube angle is gonna be so steep you’ll have to mount the saddle backwards. Good fun.

[@ek8507]

is a follow up to this in progress? When will there be an update?

[@hardtailparty]

Yes, there is a follow-up video coming.

[@karlheinzreichel670]

I like your bikestand, especially the flat base. What make is it?

[@hardtailparty]

I made it myself.

[@mattbaar]

Love the vid but love the shirt even more! Where can I snag that?

[@hardtailparty]

Party shirt international. Use code "HARDTAIL25" to get 25% off

[@1mc06]

I need that hub for my honzo esd sounds killer

[@lonewolf30531]

Awesome ! Thanks for content .

[@MoRad255]

At the end of the day, don't you just end up with the same problem you started with? you still get the same head angle at full compression as you do with a 150 at full compression, except you end up with less change in head angle. or am I missing something?

[@hardtailparty]

Correct. It's the drastic change throughout the ride that I'm trying to lessen.

[@benjacobson7490]

That's crazy, but that's also a great bike so I'm sure it'll still do good

[@laytonbaker]

Can you measure the head tube angle as the bike rests on the floor at proper sag for your review video? I'm academically curious...

[@hardtailparty]

Unfortunately, I don't have a reliable way to measure head angle. Ice tried the app before, but it's not accurate enough. Sometimes it reads 62*, and other times it reads 66*

[@cuttingedgevintage]

Would you ever review Kona unit?

[@hardtailparty]

I'd love to. If kona sends me one, I'd be happy to review it

[@cx.silver.bullet]

Hi, Do you know what is wrong with the hub? I have "early production" shimano xt wheels as well on micro sp line hub. They are death silent or making freewheeling sound only half a rotation. Depends of the moon phase :D

[@hardtailparty]

I was never able to track it down, sorry.

[@roryennis96943]

im curious what offset your cane creek helm fork is. i have a 140mm marzocchi z1 with a 51mm offset for my ESD build

[@hardtailparty]

It's a 44mm offset

[@roryennis96943]

@@hardtailparty ive never really understood what the different offsets would change on a bike like this as well as running less travel

[@ewartbuilt660]

I suspect the lower BB height would effect rock strikes.

[@ewartbuilt660]

Well, shortening the crank somewhat fixes that. I see it now!

[@hardtailparty]

Correct. I'm still 5mm lower, which is a shame, but we'll see how it does.

[@meshachaumua9596]

Hey mate is this the cane creek helm air or coil fork

[@hardtailparty]

they make both. mine is an air.

[@meshachaumua9596]

Ok cheers mate

[@braydenjohnson1063]

Honzo sesd (super extra slack dude) Put a 61 degree hta on it!

[@the-cyber-monkey]

That hub sounds so much better, I plan to get the V2 wheels as well when I get to my build

[@mikecito1717]

Follow up video on this please! 😎

[@hardtailparty]

Coming soon

[@danieljozefczyk8666]

Why go single speed?

[@JimmyRadloff]

You'll get strong riding that bike. 29 pounds is a pretty beefy single speed.

[@mgdnlk]

I think custom chain stays extension dropouts.

[@Akre2]

Problem solvers made an xd single speed kit, I'd imagine they will have a microspline version soon.

[@hardtailparty]

I'm sure it's only a matter of time, but nothing exists at the moment.

[@jkeiffer]

Air or coil Helm fork?

[@hardtailparty]

Air. On a hardtail I much prefer air over coil. On some full suspensions I prefer the coil.

[@TNW84]

Hardtails are already simplistic. With so many options out there for geo/config; why try to make a bike something it isn’t, when you can just buy what you’re looking for out of the box?

[@hardtailparty]

Because nobody makes what I'm looking for. The whole purpose of experiments is to try things that haven't been done before.

[@TNW84]

hardtail party I can respect that. Just curious why one would start with such wild geo. Seems smaller steps could be taken to achieve desired results. Love the channel

[@kbeightyseven1783]

I don’t really get your view on shorter travel forks, fitting or setting up a fork with shorter travel steepens the head angle your starting with and then using that travel steepens even further, Going long travel gives you the benefit of a slacker head angle and also the option to run lower pressure for that nice supple feeling off the top of the fork A 66° ha with a 130mm fork comes to 72.5° at full compression, a 150mm fork will give the bike a 65° ha and at full compression it’s the same 72° ha, With the benefit of more air volume for a more supple ride or up the compression damping and use the slacker ha.

[@hardtailparty]

The main difference is that a long fork makes the head angle change more throughout the ride. It's like riding a stapler. Not everyone agrees with me, and we're all entitled to our own opinions, but for trail riding, I'll pick 130 over 150mm all day. One place I like 150mm is when I'm hitting big drops. But when I'm riding rocks with successive hits, the change in geo (stack, reach, btw) gets annoying and can actually make it harder to handle than on a shorter travel fork.

[@liwx]

May I ask how tall you are in cm ?

[@80nodrog]

He's 5'6", so 167cm.

[@jcmymtb1258]

My next experiment: aggressive rigid bike

[@Onecogmike]

im Jealous, mine is on order with no ship date

[@sdqsdq6274]

cant believe ESD meant extra slack dude , lol

[@hardtailparty]

I think it meant something else, but extra slack dude kinda stuck over time after se of the mags mentioned it.

[@kyletarr4340]

I’d like to see a trust fork on it

[@hardtailparty]

Me too. I've only ever ridden a trust on a full squish. Its a fairly harsh fork

[@rickkoehler3796]

I don’t think Trust is still operating.

[@cellphonenut]

Steve just picked up a set of Marzocchi Z1 coil. Best fork I’ve ever ridden.

[@hardtailparty]

Nice. Glad you like it.